I don't like my boyfriend's friends
March 2, 2017 9:59 PM Subscribe
How do I better approach my boyfriend about my dislike of his friends and their opinions?
Rather - I do enjoy their company most of the time and understand that these people are a part of my boyfriend's life, but I occasionally have personal moral dilemmas about trying to like these people.
Much of what bothers me is what certain people could call "guy talk" - conversations about girls, hooking up, etc., but also some related topics and opinions that I would consider either misogynistic or offensive.
I believe that a lot of my discomfort comes from my own insecurities. I've had boyfriends cheat on me and I hate hearing guys with girlfriends talk about other girls, for example, or guys bragging about girls. It triggers anger and sadness.
My boyfriend seems worn down with my complaints about his friends and insists that "[his friend/s] are good guys." And I believe that... they are good friends to him, and I don't want to take my resentment out on my boyfriend. But a part of me feels like it's wrong to put a fake smile on and pretend to like these people when I disagree with them on such a fundamental level about things.
I assume that this is a take-it-or-leave-it situation. But more realistically, I would like advice on how to better approach my boyfriend about my discomfort in a way that he understands where I am coming from and doesn't make him feel defensive about his friends. It is getting harder and harder to grit my teeth and ignore this and I don't think that my side comments (as diplomatic as I'm trying to be) are helping the situation.
Rather - I do enjoy their company most of the time and understand that these people are a part of my boyfriend's life, but I occasionally have personal moral dilemmas about trying to like these people.
Much of what bothers me is what certain people could call "guy talk" - conversations about girls, hooking up, etc., but also some related topics and opinions that I would consider either misogynistic or offensive.
I believe that a lot of my discomfort comes from my own insecurities. I've had boyfriends cheat on me and I hate hearing guys with girlfriends talk about other girls, for example, or guys bragging about girls. It triggers anger and sadness.
My boyfriend seems worn down with my complaints about his friends and insists that "[his friend/s] are good guys." And I believe that... they are good friends to him, and I don't want to take my resentment out on my boyfriend. But a part of me feels like it's wrong to put a fake smile on and pretend to like these people when I disagree with them on such a fundamental level about things.
I assume that this is a take-it-or-leave-it situation. But more realistically, I would like advice on how to better approach my boyfriend about my discomfort in a way that he understands where I am coming from and doesn't make him feel defensive about his friends. It is getting harder and harder to grit my teeth and ignore this and I don't think that my side comments (as diplomatic as I'm trying to be) are helping the situation.
there isn't really a way to get him to understand how you feel because to him, the way they talk about women is normal and okay. sorry. the fact that he can so easily dismiss your worries and disgust about them by handwaving it away and saying they're "good guys" is all you need to know. he has no problem with these attitudes and when you're not there he likely joins in the conversations with details about you that you'd rather they not know.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:19 PM on March 2, 2017 [90 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:19 PM on March 2, 2017 [90 favorites]
I believe that a lot of my discomfort comes from my own insecurities. I've had boyfriends cheat on me and I hate hearing guys with girlfriends talk about other girls, for example, or guys bragging about girls. It triggers anger and sadness.
It sounds less like insecurity, and more like empathy to me. Feeling angry and sad when you hear people talking shit about people or talking about horrible things they've done, or remembering times you've been treated similarly horribly sounds totally normal and reasonable. Probably some of it is thinking, "if my boyfriend thinks this is OK, does he think this is ok for him to do with me? If not, why not?" which again, is totally reasonable. I don't have any advice for talking to your boyfriend about it, unfortunately, but don't let yourself be convinced that these feelings are irrational, unreasonable, or insecure, as I don't think they are any of those things.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:25 PM on March 2, 2017 [39 favorites]
It sounds less like insecurity, and more like empathy to me. Feeling angry and sad when you hear people talking shit about people or talking about horrible things they've done, or remembering times you've been treated similarly horribly sounds totally normal and reasonable. Probably some of it is thinking, "if my boyfriend thinks this is OK, does he think this is ok for him to do with me? If not, why not?" which again, is totally reasonable. I don't have any advice for talking to your boyfriend about it, unfortunately, but don't let yourself be convinced that these feelings are irrational, unreasonable, or insecure, as I don't think they are any of those things.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:25 PM on March 2, 2017 [39 favorites]
I would bet money that if you had these sexual conversations with your women-friends in front of him he would throw a fit about it.
I agree that this is the way he thinks about women. And you have to figure out if you're ok with it. Because he's claiming they're good guys and defending them.
Now, if he said "Uhg, sorry about Gary, that stuff he said wasn't cool but he's an otherwise good friend that I've know for 10 years so I'm not sure what to do." But no, he's just defending them.
Now, some people may be totally fine with these types of conversations between their partners and friends, but the the "default" is that dudes get to have this "guy talk" because dudes like to bang chicks and they "can't help" but talking about it. Yuck. Nope. Nope. Nope. It reminds me of when guys defend porn if it makes a partner uncomfortable because "I'm a guy, it's what we do."
There are guys that don't do this. You don't have to put up with it. You especially don't have to put up with a partner who defends it.
(It reminds me of my ex who was waving a flaming red flag by talking about his sexual conquests with other women WITH ME AT THE TABLE! And bragging about how awesome at sex he was with them. Nope.)
I would approach your boyfriend by saying:
Boyfriend, the attitudes and conversations of your guy friends make me very uncomfortable. Talking about women as sexual objects and conquests, especially when they are in relationships, is something that I find hurtful and triggering on a trust-level. How do you feel about those conversations?
Then you'll have your answer. Or he'll claim he's not cool with it but his actions will tell you otherwise because he'll keep hanging out with them on the side and when you walk into the room they'll suddenly all quiet down because "the lady is here" and he doesn't want to get "in trouble."
posted by Crystalinne at 11:35 PM on March 2, 2017 [24 favorites]
I agree that this is the way he thinks about women. And you have to figure out if you're ok with it. Because he's claiming they're good guys and defending them.
Now, if he said "Uhg, sorry about Gary, that stuff he said wasn't cool but he's an otherwise good friend that I've know for 10 years so I'm not sure what to do." But no, he's just defending them.
Now, some people may be totally fine with these types of conversations between their partners and friends, but the the "default" is that dudes get to have this "guy talk" because dudes like to bang chicks and they "can't help" but talking about it. Yuck. Nope. Nope. Nope. It reminds me of when guys defend porn if it makes a partner uncomfortable because "I'm a guy, it's what we do."
There are guys that don't do this. You don't have to put up with it. You especially don't have to put up with a partner who defends it.
(It reminds me of my ex who was waving a flaming red flag by talking about his sexual conquests with other women WITH ME AT THE TABLE! And bragging about how awesome at sex he was with them. Nope.)
I would approach your boyfriend by saying:
Boyfriend, the attitudes and conversations of your guy friends make me very uncomfortable. Talking about women as sexual objects and conquests, especially when they are in relationships, is something that I find hurtful and triggering on a trust-level. How do you feel about those conversations?
Then you'll have your answer. Or he'll claim he's not cool with it but his actions will tell you otherwise because he'll keep hanging out with them on the side and when you walk into the room they'll suddenly all quiet down because "the lady is here" and he doesn't want to get "in trouble."
posted by Crystalinne at 11:35 PM on March 2, 2017 [24 favorites]
It's not that you're insecure; it's that these guys are sexist assholes.
It's not that you had a boyfriend cheat on you before; it's that they're sexist assholes.
Grit your teeth and make side comments and get stomachaches behind your moral dilemma and worry about how your boyfriend doesn't understand: they're still going to be sexist assholes. He likes them. He's probably like them.
posted by goofyfoot at 12:43 AM on March 3, 2017 [29 favorites]
It's not that you had a boyfriend cheat on you before; it's that they're sexist assholes.
Grit your teeth and make side comments and get stomachaches behind your moral dilemma and worry about how your boyfriend doesn't understand: they're still going to be sexist assholes. He likes them. He's probably like them.
posted by goofyfoot at 12:43 AM on March 3, 2017 [29 favorites]
Yeah this may be tough to hear but ... if he's going to put up with that behavior, he's complicit in that behavior. His refusal to hear your feedback in this is troubling. They can be "good guys" all they want, but if you've expressed discomfort and he's dismissed your concerns, the problem is actually with him and you and his lack of respect for your stance.
Regarding resources, I bet you could find stuff that would suit your needs at http://everydayfeminism.com/ (if you can ignore the popups)
They may not be ready to hear this term, but articles about rape culture, esp intro/101, might help: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/what-is-rape-culture
http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-21715/12-ways-we-all-contribute-to-rape-culture-without-realizing-it.html
posted by librarina at 1:24 AM on March 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Regarding resources, I bet you could find stuff that would suit your needs at http://everydayfeminism.com/ (if you can ignore the popups)
They may not be ready to hear this term, but articles about rape culture, esp intro/101, might help: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/what-is-rape-culture
http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-21715/12-ways-we-all-contribute-to-rape-culture-without-realizing-it.html
posted by librarina at 1:24 AM on March 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Sorry, I kinda went down a rabbit hole; not all of those are vetted / entirely read by me, and there may be issues with those pieces. But I hope you may get some useful language that you can do further searches on or otherwise follow up on for yourself. Thinking of you; be safe.
posted by librarina at 1:27 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by librarina at 1:27 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Your options are not just gritting your teeth in silence or complaining to your boyfriend. When someone says something sexist or otherwise offensive you you, it is your right as an adult with a voice to call them on it.
I am not sure what you expect of your boyfriend here. He is not offended; you are. So speak up for yourself, or for the population you believe is being besmirched.
If then, your boyfriend's friends treat *you* badly, and your boyfriend doesn't speak up for *you,* then you have a relationship problem with your boyfriend. A deal breaker in my book but that's just me. And that's the risk you take - we all take - when we stand up in the face of injustices large or small.
These are your boyfriend's friends and if he is ok with their "locker room talk" then he is a locker room guy. Your call whether that is a deal breaker for you. If they don't grow up to be members of congress, locker room guys often mature into devoted family men. But not without people calling them on their shit.
posted by headnsouth at 2:19 AM on March 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
I am not sure what you expect of your boyfriend here. He is not offended; you are. So speak up for yourself, or for the population you believe is being besmirched.
If then, your boyfriend's friends treat *you* badly, and your boyfriend doesn't speak up for *you,* then you have a relationship problem with your boyfriend. A deal breaker in my book but that's just me. And that's the risk you take - we all take - when we stand up in the face of injustices large or small.
These are your boyfriend's friends and if he is ok with their "locker room talk" then he is a locker room guy. Your call whether that is a deal breaker for you. If they don't grow up to be members of congress, locker room guys often mature into devoted family men. But not without people calling them on their shit.
posted by headnsouth at 2:19 AM on March 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
Heavens, stop twisting yourself into knots!
You don't have to like his friends. You don't have to hang out with his friends.
It's perfectly normal and healthy for one's partner to have friends they hang with. You guys don't have to be a couple all the time. He should go and do things with this douchey friends and you should go and do your thing.
(Now I'm going to tell you a little story which you can ignore, but it's relevant: in college, I was dating the greatest guy ever. We had an amazing relationship. Like you, his friends drove me nuts. They were a band of bros who knew each other since preschool. Their brohood was STRONG. It was great that my bf had these close buddies that he would go camping, play softball and do other gender-stereotypical dude-like stuff with.
But OMG these guys were really sexist wankers. They were nice enough to me but hanging with them meant I also was listening to hardcore machismo nonsense about chicks and sexual conquests, etc.
One summer, I went in on a beach house with my bf AND his friends down the Jersey Shore*. It was one of the stupidest things I've ever done. Imagine "Animal House" antics but MORE drunk. I was miserable. I wanted to hang with my bf and do shore things but these idiots kept harshing my summer.
One day, my bf pulled me aside and told me that his buddies called me "Ice Queen" and that I was harshing their summer fun. He was also tired of my complaining about their Neanderthal-like shenanigans because they were his childhood buddies and I was being a downer.
The thing is: he was right. I made the choice to be with his friends. It was wrong of me to expect others to conform to my expectations and it was wrong of me to be a jerk to these dudes and it was really wrong of me to complain about how obnoxious his friends were. We broke up a few weeks later and it was mostly because of my behavior.)
To summarize, don't hang out with these guys, definitely don't slam these guys, and be happy that he's got a bunch of guys he can hang with.
*You know Ronnie and Sammi from the tv show "Jersey Shore?" That was us except I wasn't as fun as Sammi.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:40 AM on March 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
You don't have to like his friends. You don't have to hang out with his friends.
It's perfectly normal and healthy for one's partner to have friends they hang with. You guys don't have to be a couple all the time. He should go and do things with this douchey friends and you should go and do your thing.
(Now I'm going to tell you a little story which you can ignore, but it's relevant: in college, I was dating the greatest guy ever. We had an amazing relationship. Like you, his friends drove me nuts. They were a band of bros who knew each other since preschool. Their brohood was STRONG. It was great that my bf had these close buddies that he would go camping, play softball and do other gender-stereotypical dude-like stuff with.
But OMG these guys were really sexist wankers. They were nice enough to me but hanging with them meant I also was listening to hardcore machismo nonsense about chicks and sexual conquests, etc.
One summer, I went in on a beach house with my bf AND his friends down the Jersey Shore*. It was one of the stupidest things I've ever done. Imagine "Animal House" antics but MORE drunk. I was miserable. I wanted to hang with my bf and do shore things but these idiots kept harshing my summer.
One day, my bf pulled me aside and told me that his buddies called me "Ice Queen" and that I was harshing their summer fun. He was also tired of my complaining about their Neanderthal-like shenanigans because they were his childhood buddies and I was being a downer.
The thing is: he was right. I made the choice to be with his friends. It was wrong of me to expect others to conform to my expectations and it was wrong of me to be a jerk to these dudes and it was really wrong of me to complain about how obnoxious his friends were. We broke up a few weeks later and it was mostly because of my behavior.)
To summarize, don't hang out with these guys, definitely don't slam these guys, and be happy that he's got a bunch of guys he can hang with.
*You know Ronnie and Sammi from the tv show "Jersey Shore?" That was us except I wasn't as fun as Sammi.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:40 AM on March 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
I don't know how you 'approach' your boyfriend but you definitely don't need to like his friends to be in his life. I couldn't stand my ex's friends. If he wants you to hang with them then it's a problem and I would tell him everything you said below and sternly. He will probably brush it off because he's used to it. You can just make yourself clear by not attending any events where they'll be.
yes I said yes I will Yes - It was wrong of me to expect others to conform to my expectations and it was wrong of me to be a jerk to these dudes and it was really wrong of me to complain about how obnoxious his friends were.
I know you're not the OP but I have to respond in case the OP thinks this is okay. No it wasn't wrong of you. Relationships are about compromise and they should have met you halfway. Your boyfriend should have also told you how 'spring break' the experience was going to be so that falls on him. If they call you ice-queen, you can call them Neanderthal. It's fine.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 4:31 AM on March 3, 2017 [23 favorites]
yes I said yes I will Yes - It was wrong of me to expect others to conform to my expectations and it was wrong of me to be a jerk to these dudes and it was really wrong of me to complain about how obnoxious his friends were.
I know you're not the OP but I have to respond in case the OP thinks this is okay. No it wasn't wrong of you. Relationships are about compromise and they should have met you halfway. Your boyfriend should have also told you how 'spring break' the experience was going to be so that falls on him. If they call you ice-queen, you can call them Neanderthal. It's fine.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 4:31 AM on March 3, 2017 [23 favorites]
You don't have to hang out with them, for sure, but... it has been my experience that relationships aren't often long lasting/happy when people dislike each other's friends. And there is a reason for that. In general, people make friends with people similar to themselves. If these are your boyfriend's friends, you have to assume that he shares in their opinions, or at least doesn't find their behaviours and opinions objectionable or offensive. I think you also should assume he has spoken/behaved similarly.
I think you need to view your boyfriend through the lens of his friends.
I think you're upset for a reason.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:06 AM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
I think you need to view your boyfriend through the lens of his friends.
I think you're upset for a reason.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:06 AM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
If these were his cousins or brothers, I might have a little sympathy for him -- you don't get to choose your family. (Though he should still stand up for you enough to say "cut it out" when they discuss offensive stuff.)
You DO get to choose your friends, and he's chosen a bunch of men who don't respect women. I'd give that some thought. (And for the record -- why have I had to say this so many times in the last year -- I don't know ANY men who talk like that and I never dated a guy who would be cool with his friends talking like that. You have better choices.)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 5:12 AM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
You DO get to choose your friends, and he's chosen a bunch of men who don't respect women. I'd give that some thought. (And for the record -- why have I had to say this so many times in the last year -- I don't know ANY men who talk like that and I never dated a guy who would be cool with his friends talking like that. You have better choices.)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 5:12 AM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
This is a bit of a roundabout point, but bear with me: I've been watching old Cheers reruns on Netflix lately, and though I also watched the show ask a kid when it was first on and thought nothing of it at the time, watching now I'm rather grossed out at the sheer volume of sexism and misogyny - the characters are CONSTANTLY talking about "conquests," women who turn down the main character are treated rudely for having done so ... just recently I caught an episode where the corporate owner of the bar engaged in "guy talk" with the main bartender where they talked about how hot the female bar manager (you know, his employee) was, how she refused to go out with guys from corporate who'd asked her out, and how they all thought the only possible explanation for this was that she must be a "lady's lady" (!!).
All of which is to say two things: one, this was a sitcom from 30 years ago and here I've been amazed at "how people talked back then," but it sounds like your boyfriend's friends would have fit right in. With sitcom characters from 30 years ago. That's ... gross and pathetic.
And two, Cheers was of course a popular sitcom in its day which I assume means viewers were okay with this kind of dialogue back then; I would HOPE that the same wouldn't be the case now (eh ... at least not to the same degree). Standards change, and what is seen as okay changes - so even if your boyfriend or anybody else tries to minimize this as "just guy talk," that doesn't make it objectively right or acceptable. There are a lot of people who would find your boyfriend's friends' "guy talk" unacceptable, and you don't have to put up with it just because your boyfriend thinks it's cool.
All of which is to say that I agree with the folks saying that the issue here is NOT you. You're not being insecure, and you don't need to sit there being the cool girlfriend in the presence of this crap. At the very least, you can refuse to go out with him and his friends, or you can tell them, every time it comes up, that you don't want to hear this kind of talk in your presence ("ice queen" be damned, you're allowed to expect that people don't talk about women like this around you).
As others have said, though, this seems like a fair indicator of what your boyfriend thinks of women (or at least thinks is okay to think of women) and I would be looking at him in that light.
posted by DingoMutt at 5:51 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
All of which is to say two things: one, this was a sitcom from 30 years ago and here I've been amazed at "how people talked back then," but it sounds like your boyfriend's friends would have fit right in. With sitcom characters from 30 years ago. That's ... gross and pathetic.
And two, Cheers was of course a popular sitcom in its day which I assume means viewers were okay with this kind of dialogue back then; I would HOPE that the same wouldn't be the case now (eh ... at least not to the same degree). Standards change, and what is seen as okay changes - so even if your boyfriend or anybody else tries to minimize this as "just guy talk," that doesn't make it objectively right or acceptable. There are a lot of people who would find your boyfriend's friends' "guy talk" unacceptable, and you don't have to put up with it just because your boyfriend thinks it's cool.
All of which is to say that I agree with the folks saying that the issue here is NOT you. You're not being insecure, and you don't need to sit there being the cool girlfriend in the presence of this crap. At the very least, you can refuse to go out with him and his friends, or you can tell them, every time it comes up, that you don't want to hear this kind of talk in your presence ("ice queen" be damned, you're allowed to expect that people don't talk about women like this around you).
As others have said, though, this seems like a fair indicator of what your boyfriend thinks of women (or at least thinks is okay to think of women) and I would be looking at him in that light.
posted by DingoMutt at 5:51 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
fuck this guy. he likes them and defends them because he *is like them.* this is not the Default Guy Setting. these are gross and oppressive attitudes. my blood boiled on your behalf just reading this. this is not normal -- and if they think it is, then RUN.
just as data point for knowing this is not normal / does not have to be your reality: last weekend, one of my bf's pals made a slightly sexist remark about women. our discussion when we were alone afterwards was about emotional labour, and how he & his buddies shouldn't always assume that i (The One Girl There) always has to be the one to call it out. he was so genuinely sorry and emphatic about getting better at stepping up & calling that shit out that it warmed my heart. i left that convo feeling heard, respected, and loved.
you should have that too. it won't happen with this guy, unfortunately.
posted by crawfo at 6:08 AM on March 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
just as data point for knowing this is not normal / does not have to be your reality: last weekend, one of my bf's pals made a slightly sexist remark about women. our discussion when we were alone afterwards was about emotional labour, and how he & his buddies shouldn't always assume that i (The One Girl There) always has to be the one to call it out. he was so genuinely sorry and emphatic about getting better at stepping up & calling that shit out that it warmed my heart. i left that convo feeling heard, respected, and loved.
you should have that too. it won't happen with this guy, unfortunately.
posted by crawfo at 6:08 AM on March 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Tell me who you associate with and I'll tell you who you are. If he's not calling them out he is them. He may be great in many other respects but if he's this way and this is a deal breaker for you, you might want to proceed with caution.
posted by fixedgear at 6:18 AM on March 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by fixedgear at 6:18 AM on March 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
What is your goal by discussing this with him? If it is to let him know how you feel and to see if he agrees with your way of thinking, I think this could be done in a respectful manner away from his friends and as a conversation that evolves from some other conversation that had nothing to do with his friends to start with. If the goal is for him to "see the light" and then dump his friends for it, it will not end well. If the goal is to get his friends to change, I will be honest and say you have a snowball's chance in hell of making that a reality.
I think it is very likely that you can have a respectful conversation with your boyfriend about how it makes you uncomfortable and how, while you may appreciate that his friends are comfortable enough around you to have unvarnished conversations around you or to treat you like one of the guys, you would rather that you hung out with him alone or with different friends or a smaller subset of his friends so that you were not included in those conversations. Further, you would like reassurance from your boyfriend that he will never treat you like they talk.
What I am trying to say is that I would frame the conversation around how you feel when you are with the friends and not around changing the friend's attitudes.
posted by AugustWest at 6:41 AM on March 3, 2017
I think it is very likely that you can have a respectful conversation with your boyfriend about how it makes you uncomfortable and how, while you may appreciate that his friends are comfortable enough around you to have unvarnished conversations around you or to treat you like one of the guys, you would rather that you hung out with him alone or with different friends or a smaller subset of his friends so that you were not included in those conversations. Further, you would like reassurance from your boyfriend that he will never treat you like they talk.
What I am trying to say is that I would frame the conversation around how you feel when you are with the friends and not around changing the friend's attitudes.
posted by AugustWest at 6:41 AM on March 3, 2017
No one likes being around guys like this except guys like this...
posted by xammerboy at 7:03 AM on March 3, 2017 [38 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 7:03 AM on March 3, 2017 [38 favorites]
No one likes being around guys like this except guys like this...
^^ This . Your boyfriend is one of these guys. Guys who aren't like this cannot stand being around these dudes.
posted by French Fry at 7:07 AM on March 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
^^ This . Your boyfriend is one of these guys. Guys who aren't like this cannot stand being around these dudes.
posted by French Fry at 7:07 AM on March 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
I had a boyfriend in twenties that I was CRAZY in love with. I thought he was The One, he was sweet, funny, affectionate, I thought he was SUCH a great guy. The only thing I didn't like about him was that his best friend was a guy I'd always loathed. No one really liked him because he was a dick. He was smarmy, treated his girlfriends badly, a user who really only valued people for what they could do for him, sexist, racist. Just a bad person. I couldn't believe that my awesome boyfriend actually liked this guy.
Yeah, you know why? Because they had a lot in common: my "awesome" boyfriend was also a shitty person who was a user, who treated his girlfriends badly, was sexist, racist, liked to borrow money and not pay it back, emotionally abusive.
I'd tread carefully here. I've generally found that people who have jerky friends are jerks themselves. Whenever I tried to approach my ex about what a DICK his best friend was and how I didn't really want to spend much time with him, he would get defensive and talk about what a good fried Dick was to HIM and how I was too critical.
posted by Aquifer at 7:14 AM on March 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, you know why? Because they had a lot in common: my "awesome" boyfriend was also a shitty person who was a user, who treated his girlfriends badly, was sexist, racist, liked to borrow money and not pay it back, emotionally abusive.
I'd tread carefully here. I've generally found that people who have jerky friends are jerks themselves. Whenever I tried to approach my ex about what a DICK his best friend was and how I didn't really want to spend much time with him, he would get defensive and talk about what a good fried Dick was to HIM and how I was too critical.
posted by Aquifer at 7:14 AM on March 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
So when his friends are being sexist assholes he is... politely recusing himself from the conversation, I guess?
posted by Cosine at 7:20 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Cosine at 7:20 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Your description was rather vague, and my first reaction was, "Well, I can't judge whether what you heard is really offensive," and all these responses saying these guys are awful are unjustified because they weren't there to judge.
But then I realized: It doesn't matter what I, or anyone else, would think if we were there. It doesn't matter if only 1 out of 1000 people would find them offensive. You found them "misogynistic or offensive." And if your boyfriend shares those attitudes, he's not right for you.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:29 AM on March 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
But then I realized: It doesn't matter what I, or anyone else, would think if we were there. It doesn't matter if only 1 out of 1000 people would find them offensive. You found them "misogynistic or offensive." And if your boyfriend shares those attitudes, he's not right for you.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:29 AM on March 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
This has nothing to do with your own insecurities. The fact that it makes you upset to listen to misogynistic men is NORMAL and speaks to your secure values and the good head on your shoulders. The fact that you think this is somehow your fault or your responsibility to endure is a lifetime of misogynistic conditioning that you have not finished sloughing off.
Your boyfriend has shitty taste in friends, and the dilemma you have is trying to figure out if he's really a good guy and is putting on a show for them, or if he's really a shitty guy and he's putting on a show for you. I don't know the answer, but that's the question.
posted by juniperesque at 7:38 AM on March 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Your boyfriend has shitty taste in friends, and the dilemma you have is trying to figure out if he's really a good guy and is putting on a show for them, or if he's really a shitty guy and he's putting on a show for you. I don't know the answer, but that's the question.
posted by juniperesque at 7:38 AM on March 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
No one likes being around guys like this except guys like this...
Take it from me, for I am An Old. This is the truth, right here. You should be with someone who agrees with you on basic acceptable standards of human behavior. And you should not be with someone who hears you sincerely say you feel hurt and responds by saying it's not a big deal.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:39 AM on March 3, 2017 [17 favorites]
Some people have friends that are grandfathered into their group or they've been friends since childhood and they either are willing to put up with shitty attitudes or are blind to them. Where it's hopeless, to me, is when your partner brushes aside your concerns or dismisses them like you're just doing that thing women do or whatever. There's a big difference between "Yes, Joe is kind of sexist but I'm still going to be friends with him" and "I have no idea what you are talking about/you are just being PC," that kind of thing. Do you think he is sexist on other grounds?
My partner's group of friends included one guy who was a jerk on a number of levels, most of them sexist. It took his wife, whom they were all closer to, divorcing him for them to stop seeing him, which they did instantly. For a while, my partner acted like it was some sort of tic of mine that I didn't like being around him, and that still rankles a bit when I think of it.
posted by BibiRose at 8:22 AM on March 3, 2017
My partner's group of friends included one guy who was a jerk on a number of levels, most of them sexist. It took his wife, whom they were all closer to, divorcing him for them to stop seeing him, which they did instantly. For a while, my partner acted like it was some sort of tic of mine that I didn't like being around him, and that still rankles a bit when I think of it.
posted by BibiRose at 8:22 AM on March 3, 2017
My husband has a hunting buddy that has in the last few years revealed himself to be a Milo-supporting liberatarian dipshit. The very first time we were all together and the dude said something about how "you know how women are...", my husband started pointing out all the women in our group and saying things like "What, smart? Amazingly talented? Awesome?" From there on, when he says or does something asshole-y he is corrected. By my husband. It got to the point shortly after the election where the guy complained to my husband that he was tired of being corrected and having the PC crap shoved down his throat. To which my husband responded, "Eat a dick." (Not the most helpful thing, but he was frustrated.)
Since that time he has started to understand that shit doesn't fly around us and he is just not saying that shit. My husband still associates with him from time to time because he's the only guy in our group other than my husband that hunts and it's safer to go into the woods with someone else rather than alone. But one of the advantages of moving across the state, according to my husband, is maybe he can find a non-misogynist to hunt with.
posted by teleri025 at 9:30 AM on March 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
Since that time he has started to understand that shit doesn't fly around us and he is just not saying that shit. My husband still associates with him from time to time because he's the only guy in our group other than my husband that hunts and it's safer to go into the woods with someone else rather than alone. But one of the advantages of moving across the state, according to my husband, is maybe he can find a non-misogynist to hunt with.
posted by teleri025 at 9:30 AM on March 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
My boyfriend has friends like this. I talked to him about it, he listened, and now when his friends say shitty things he shuts it down before I have a chance to. "Good guys" are never good guys.
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 10:38 AM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 10:38 AM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I asked this question in the past, and it has similar nuances to yours.
The distillation of all of the responses in that thread for me was that breaking up with my boyfriend over the situation was not necessary, if: he acknowledged and understood my perspective, apologized for any issues in our relationship that were a consequence of his friendship, and just generally distanced himself from the inevitable drama.
Well, we moved past it. The approach that worked for me was to let him know that while I wasn't asking him not to be friends with this person, that my perspective was XYZ and that his association with this person was affecting our relationship and most importantly, my view of him. I did this in a neutral setting with no immediate argument or outing with friends imminent, as opposed to an emotional, argumentative complaint that rarely works for anyone in any situation. Ultimately, he did understand my XYZ opinion and take measures to demonstrate that to me. That indicated that he respected our relationship enough to not jeopardize it. It's worked out well.
I made the decision based on my own gut instincts, and to some extent this response (the last paragraph.) You say your boyfriend's friends are misogynistic and offensive. Does your boyfriend agree with their opinions? Do you think he treats you misogynistically/ offensively? Does he understand your perspective and attempt to communicate to his friends that they are wrong? Ultimately, only you know if your boyfriend talks about other girls, and whether he actively participates in such behavior. You say that you mostly enjoy the company of his friends and that it is an occasional occurrence where you're triggered a certain way, so explain this to him. If he respects you, he will ultimately understand. If he doesn't... you have a choice to make.
posted by Everydayville at 1:31 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The distillation of all of the responses in that thread for me was that breaking up with my boyfriend over the situation was not necessary, if: he acknowledged and understood my perspective, apologized for any issues in our relationship that were a consequence of his friendship, and just generally distanced himself from the inevitable drama.
Well, we moved past it. The approach that worked for me was to let him know that while I wasn't asking him not to be friends with this person, that my perspective was XYZ and that his association with this person was affecting our relationship and most importantly, my view of him. I did this in a neutral setting with no immediate argument or outing with friends imminent, as opposed to an emotional, argumentative complaint that rarely works for anyone in any situation. Ultimately, he did understand my XYZ opinion and take measures to demonstrate that to me. That indicated that he respected our relationship enough to not jeopardize it. It's worked out well.
I made the decision based on my own gut instincts, and to some extent this response (the last paragraph.) You say your boyfriend's friends are misogynistic and offensive. Does your boyfriend agree with their opinions? Do you think he treats you misogynistically/ offensively? Does he understand your perspective and attempt to communicate to his friends that they are wrong? Ultimately, only you know if your boyfriend talks about other girls, and whether he actively participates in such behavior. You say that you mostly enjoy the company of his friends and that it is an occasional occurrence where you're triggered a certain way, so explain this to him. If he respects you, he will ultimately understand. If he doesn't... you have a choice to make.
posted by Everydayville at 1:31 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Lots of us guys are not sexist assholes. Sure, US TV shows would have you believe that almost all guys are, but they aren't.
You don't have a relationship with his friends, you can easily make sure that you're never around them. But you do have a relationship with your boyfriend and you need to make sure of what he is and then decide whether you want to be part of that. His reaction to your discomfort will tell you everything. If he thinks they're "good guys" then that tells you what his definition of a "good guy" is. There are lots of people out there who's definition of "good guy" more closely matches yours.
posted by tillsbury at 2:22 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
You don't have a relationship with his friends, you can easily make sure that you're never around them. But you do have a relationship with your boyfriend and you need to make sure of what he is and then decide whether you want to be part of that. His reaction to your discomfort will tell you everything. If he thinks they're "good guys" then that tells you what his definition of a "good guy" is. There are lots of people out there who's definition of "good guy" more closely matches yours.
posted by tillsbury at 2:22 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I think the way you've expressed it here is a good way to bring it up with your boyfriend. Tell him that you mostly enjoy hanging out with his friends, but the bro-ness is insulting and triggering, and you won't be hanging out with them until they stop. That is perfectly a valid thing to say. It's ok to set boundaries around this stuff. I'm not sure that you can demand that your boyfriend stop seeing his friends, but it's more than ok for you to decide, independently, that his willingness to defend misogyny (and participate in it?) is a dealbreaker for you.
Someone here once posted a video of how to have a conversation about racism, in that you should make it about "that thing you did was racist" rather than "you are a racist because of that thing you did." I can't find that video right now, but I think the same thing applies here: these guys might be fun to hang out with, but some specific behaviors are a major problem.
posted by basalganglia at 3:03 PM on March 3, 2017
Someone here once posted a video of how to have a conversation about racism, in that you should make it about "that thing you did was racist" rather than "you are a racist because of that thing you did." I can't find that video right now, but I think the same thing applies here: these guys might be fun to hang out with, but some specific behaviors are a major problem.
posted by basalganglia at 3:03 PM on March 3, 2017
You could take on the job of educating your boyfriend on feminist issues, but do you really want that job? The pay sucks.
Life is too short to be around dudes like this. Find a man who already knows better.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 10:10 AM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Life is too short to be around dudes like this. Find a man who already knows better.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 10:10 AM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
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It might be possible for you to only see these guys a handful of times a year. Is that worth the aggravation that continuing to bring this up will have in what seems like an otherwise good relationship?
posted by Fister Roboto at 10:13 PM on March 2, 2017 [16 favorites]