Friend's attitude toward trans people - how should I react?
March 2, 2017 8:43 AM Subscribe
A long time friend has an attitude toward trans people that I, as a gender non-conforming, basically trans person find upsetting. Is it fair to be upset? How could I have handled things better?
My friend believes that "after the revolution" there won't be any trans people, because gender is a construct of the patriarchy. She often cites Andrea Dworkin's comments about how trans people should be allowed whatever they need to transition because of the nature of our society, but that in feminist utopia, no one would ever want to transition because there would be umpteen gazillion amorphous gender identities.
She also believes - and this is where my real problem comes in - that instead of trans people sharing locker rooms, bathrooms, etc with cis people, the entire infrastructure of the US should be redone so that all bathrooms are single stall, all locker rooms are individual changing cubes, etc. This does not, to me, feel like acceptance of trans people, even though she always emphasizes that it is about privacy and safety for all. I feel that her reasoning rests on the construction of trans people as predators and is also implicitly homophobic/gay erasing.
She also tends to be really uncomfortable whenever trans anything is discussed, and has asked me zero questions about my history, plans, etc. She tends to withdraw from any conversations whenever trans issues come up. For instance, when I said that I'd started wearing men's shirts instead of just men's style shirts made for women and it was so great, she got all cold and silent.
She is someone whose views on trans people used to be really terrible, on the "men in dresses" continuum, so I recognize that she's really moved and done a lot of work to get where she is now.
I avoided coming out to her for a couple of years and then finally blew up at her, which was not fair. However, she never apologized for saying the "men in dresses" stuff, which had really, really hurt me at the time and indeed kept me from sharing any of this stuff. I would really have liked something like "I'm sorry that I said things that were hurtful to you", but all it boiled down to was "my politics are great, if you want to be offended and stop being friends, that's on you, because I believe this great trans-accepting thing just like Andrea Dworkin".
I feel like I can't talk about most of the important things in my life with her, and our conversations are really awkward. We had a big dumb argument last week about nothing - I got really upset over something trivial because I was actually upset over a whole stack of small upsetting things that had been said earlier.
I feel bad about that, but I also feel like I'm always pushed into this position where I have to argue for my gender identity. I feel like if I say anything to her that isn't "I am 100% a manly man inside my heart and I have always felt that way 100%" she takes it as proof that my gender identity is bullshit. She is basically a professional arguer as her day job, so I am always at a loss in our arguments - I always lose, but that doesn't mean she's right. "Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences or my friends' experiences" cuts no ice with her, because she feels that it is false consciousness. But this really makes me reluctant to get into it with her, because I can't out-argue her and she doesn't accept what trans people say about themselves as evidence.
Basically, I'm acting like kind of an asshole to her on occasion, while also feeling terrible and stifled.
She has a right to her opinion.
What should I do? Do I end the friendship? Can I ghost? Do I just go on and try not to snap at her? Should I apologize? (I feel like I'm always the one who apologizes.) Do you even think her ideas are bad, or do you feel that this is an acceptable kind of opinion? How could I have handled things better earlier?
My friend believes that "after the revolution" there won't be any trans people, because gender is a construct of the patriarchy. She often cites Andrea Dworkin's comments about how trans people should be allowed whatever they need to transition because of the nature of our society, but that in feminist utopia, no one would ever want to transition because there would be umpteen gazillion amorphous gender identities.
She also believes - and this is where my real problem comes in - that instead of trans people sharing locker rooms, bathrooms, etc with cis people, the entire infrastructure of the US should be redone so that all bathrooms are single stall, all locker rooms are individual changing cubes, etc. This does not, to me, feel like acceptance of trans people, even though she always emphasizes that it is about privacy and safety for all. I feel that her reasoning rests on the construction of trans people as predators and is also implicitly homophobic/gay erasing.
She also tends to be really uncomfortable whenever trans anything is discussed, and has asked me zero questions about my history, plans, etc. She tends to withdraw from any conversations whenever trans issues come up. For instance, when I said that I'd started wearing men's shirts instead of just men's style shirts made for women and it was so great, she got all cold and silent.
She is someone whose views on trans people used to be really terrible, on the "men in dresses" continuum, so I recognize that she's really moved and done a lot of work to get where she is now.
I avoided coming out to her for a couple of years and then finally blew up at her, which was not fair. However, she never apologized for saying the "men in dresses" stuff, which had really, really hurt me at the time and indeed kept me from sharing any of this stuff. I would really have liked something like "I'm sorry that I said things that were hurtful to you", but all it boiled down to was "my politics are great, if you want to be offended and stop being friends, that's on you, because I believe this great trans-accepting thing just like Andrea Dworkin".
I feel like I can't talk about most of the important things in my life with her, and our conversations are really awkward. We had a big dumb argument last week about nothing - I got really upset over something trivial because I was actually upset over a whole stack of small upsetting things that had been said earlier.
I feel bad about that, but I also feel like I'm always pushed into this position where I have to argue for my gender identity. I feel like if I say anything to her that isn't "I am 100% a manly man inside my heart and I have always felt that way 100%" she takes it as proof that my gender identity is bullshit. She is basically a professional arguer as her day job, so I am always at a loss in our arguments - I always lose, but that doesn't mean she's right. "Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences or my friends' experiences" cuts no ice with her, because she feels that it is false consciousness. But this really makes me reluctant to get into it with her, because I can't out-argue her and she doesn't accept what trans people say about themselves as evidence.
Basically, I'm acting like kind of an asshole to her on occasion, while also feeling terrible and stifled.
She has a right to her opinion.
What should I do? Do I end the friendship? Can I ghost? Do I just go on and try not to snap at her? Should I apologize? (I feel like I'm always the one who apologizes.) Do you even think her ideas are bad, or do you feel that this is an acceptable kind of opinion? How could I have handled things better earlier?
Basically, I'm acting like kind of an asshole to her on occasion, while also feeling terrible and stifled.
You don't have to friend dump her, you don't have to apologize, you don't have to ghost, and you sure as hell don't have to stay so tight and buddy-buddy when it's often uncomfortable, seemingly for both of you.
I'd just back off a bit, hang out a little less, if I were in your position. Hang out when you do that one thing you both like, but don't go out of your way to invite her to everything, don't accept ever invitation she makes.
You just need a little more space right now I think, and that's fine.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:51 AM on March 2, 2017
You don't have to friend dump her, you don't have to apologize, you don't have to ghost, and you sure as hell don't have to stay so tight and buddy-buddy when it's often uncomfortable, seemingly for both of you.
I'd just back off a bit, hang out a little less, if I were in your position. Hang out when you do that one thing you both like, but don't go out of your way to invite her to everything, don't accept ever invitation she makes.
You just need a little more space right now I think, and that's fine.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:51 AM on March 2, 2017
She has a right to her opinion.
Her opinion is that society should undergo massive, sweeping changes that it will not undergo in our lifetimes so she personally doesn't have to worry about your and other trans people's gender identity. Sure, she has a right to it. Doesn't mean you have to enable it. Ghost her.
posted by Etrigan at 8:51 AM on March 2, 2017 [35 favorites]
Her opinion is that society should undergo massive, sweeping changes that it will not undergo in our lifetimes so she personally doesn't have to worry about your and other trans people's gender identity. Sure, she has a right to it. Doesn't mean you have to enable it. Ghost her.
posted by Etrigan at 8:51 AM on March 2, 2017 [35 favorites]
he is basically a professional arguer as her day job, so I am always at a loss in our arguments - I always lose, but that doesn't mean she's right. "Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences or my friends' experiences" cuts no ice with her, because she feels that it is false consciousness.
Who could win a fight with someone willing to disregard anything they don't agree with? She sounds like the worst. You don't necessarily have to end the friendship FOREVER, but I would definitely take a few months off, and I'd be surprised if you found you missed her.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:51 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Who could win a fight with someone willing to disregard anything they don't agree with? She sounds like the worst. You don't necessarily have to end the friendship FOREVER, but I would definitely take a few months off, and I'd be surprised if you found you missed her.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:51 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I feel like falling somewhere along the "backing off/ghosting" continuum is probably best. The "professional arguer" thing made me cringe because I have SO been there and it's just all stress and feeling cowed and ugh. It's just not worth it and it's SUCH a load off your shoulders when you're not dealing with someone like that.
posted by brilliantine at 8:54 AM on March 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by brilliantine at 8:54 AM on March 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Especially with the political/cultural winds blowing the way they are right now, put on your own oxygen mask first. I have a vaguely analogous situation going on and have made decisions to minimize one on one social time spent and topics of conversation discussed with certain folks. Yeah, the reel-back of intimacy is painful, but you know what? I tell myself I have gotten useful information at a critical time and need to act accordingly.
posted by blue suede stockings at 8:55 AM on March 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by blue suede stockings at 8:55 AM on March 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
There were trans and gender nonconforming people in all of human history, in societies very different from our own. "The revolution" is probably not going to be different from all of human history.
The solution to having different types of people who need to change and use restrooms together is not to isolate them-- the solution is to mix everyone up and police dangerous/negative behavior strictly. The problem is not the presence of people, it's the actions of people.
Your friend is straight-up wrong about so much, and I don't think you can logic her out of something that is clearly and emotional issue she's rationalizing. You could:
1) work hard to find a place where you can compromise
2) work hard to never discuss what is a major part of your life
3) End the friendship and spend your limited time and energy on people who respect you
You should end the friendship.
posted by blnkfrnk at 8:55 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
The solution to having different types of people who need to change and use restrooms together is not to isolate them-- the solution is to mix everyone up and police dangerous/negative behavior strictly. The problem is not the presence of people, it's the actions of people.
Your friend is straight-up wrong about so much, and I don't think you can logic her out of something that is clearly and emotional issue she's rationalizing. You could:
1) work hard to find a place where you can compromise
2) work hard to never discuss what is a major part of your life
3) End the friendship and spend your limited time and energy on people who respect you
You should end the friendship.
posted by blnkfrnk at 8:55 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Oh man, this situation sucks. I wouldn't apologize to her because it doesn't seem like you have anything to apologize for.
I wouldn't totally ghost her, but I probably would fade just because it doesn't sound like she's worth the energy. If you could make it clear this isn't something you want to engage or argue about with her, and she respects that boundary, then you could probably still continue some kind of friendship. It doesn't sound like that's the case though.
I've basically stopped talking to a bunch of people who felt like every topic was open to a heated, abstract argument. Sometimes I want to vent about the patriarchy and how it sucks being non gender conforming, and don't need to debate my experiences because the other person thinks that's what you do in the world. This stuff seems to be especially tough because a lot of "professional arguers" don't understand that people own their personal experiences and that shit shouldn't be up for debate. So I basically just stopped talking to them about anything personal because it wasn't worth it. It's kind of like ghosting, but I did try to tell them why I stopped engaging them. They for the most part didn't get it because they value being objective and right beyond most things, and I honestly don't feel a loss like I thought I would.
posted by kendrak at 8:58 AM on March 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
I wouldn't totally ghost her, but I probably would fade just because it doesn't sound like she's worth the energy. If you could make it clear this isn't something you want to engage or argue about with her, and she respects that boundary, then you could probably still continue some kind of friendship. It doesn't sound like that's the case though.
I've basically stopped talking to a bunch of people who felt like every topic was open to a heated, abstract argument. Sometimes I want to vent about the patriarchy and how it sucks being non gender conforming, and don't need to debate my experiences because the other person thinks that's what you do in the world. This stuff seems to be especially tough because a lot of "professional arguers" don't understand that people own their personal experiences and that shit shouldn't be up for debate. So I basically just stopped talking to them about anything personal because it wasn't worth it. It's kind of like ghosting, but I did try to tell them why I stopped engaging them. They for the most part didn't get it because they value being objective and right beyond most things, and I honestly don't feel a loss like I thought I would.
posted by kendrak at 8:58 AM on March 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
real talk her opinions suck and are probably even worse about trans women. fuck her opinions
imagining myself in your situation: unless i had a really long deeply held connection with this person that i felt was worth the amount of emotional energy i'd have to expend, i'd be peacing out on this friendship.
ancillary: if your experience is like mine, you will meet a lot of this kind of shit: " "Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences or my friends' experiences" cuts no ice with her, because she feels that it is false consciousness. But this really makes me reluctant to get into it with her, because I can't out-argue her and she doesn't accept what trans people say about themselves as evidence. " as you are being more out about your genders. do not waste your time trying to convince these people or stay friends with them if they double down on this kind of opinion, this is a style of straight up shit bigoted behavior common on left/liberal side and i have noticed that seemingly rational people will somehow excuse this kind of WELL ACTUALLY style shittiness
having the genders in the world is tiring enough, don't get ground into paste by comrades with shit opinions. sic your ally friends on 'em.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 8:58 AM on March 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
imagining myself in your situation: unless i had a really long deeply held connection with this person that i felt was worth the amount of emotional energy i'd have to expend, i'd be peacing out on this friendship.
ancillary: if your experience is like mine, you will meet a lot of this kind of shit: " "Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences or my friends' experiences" cuts no ice with her, because she feels that it is false consciousness. But this really makes me reluctant to get into it with her, because I can't out-argue her and she doesn't accept what trans people say about themselves as evidence. " as you are being more out about your genders. do not waste your time trying to convince these people or stay friends with them if they double down on this kind of opinion, this is a style of straight up shit bigoted behavior common on left/liberal side and i have noticed that seemingly rational people will somehow excuse this kind of WELL ACTUALLY style shittiness
having the genders in the world is tiring enough, don't get ground into paste by comrades with shit opinions. sic your ally friends on 'em.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 8:58 AM on March 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
She also believes - and this is where my real problem comes in - that instead of trans people sharing locker rooms, bathrooms, etc with cis people, the entire infrastructure of the US should be redone so that all bathrooms are single stall, all locker rooms are individual changing cubes, etc. This does not, to me, feel like acceptance of trans people, even though she always emphasizes that it is about privacy and safety for all. I feel that her reasoning rests on the construction of trans people as predators and is also implicitly homophobic/gay erasing.
FWIW, I've definitely heard this argument from some trans people (usually the idea behind it is to protect trans people from assault).
It also strikes me that there are two categories of things going on here. There's the concrete, where you feel like you can't talk to her about your life and identity - that seems to me to be the real problem. And then there's the abstract, where you guys disagree about some hypothetical stuff that will 100% never happen. That seems less important to me (cis hetero white dude, so you know, salt to taste on that one). But like, this vague future utopia where gender doesn't exist and we're reconfiguring the physical construction of every building in America - that's never going to arrive, so I'm not sure arguing about it gets you anywhere.
But, but, BUT. If you don't feel comfortable talking to her about real things that are happening in your life, that's a whole other thing. In that case, there's no need for you to stay friends with her. If you want to give it one last try, you could do a cards on the table conversation about "I don't want to argue about the true nature of gender, I want to talk about how the shit you say makes me feel." But also feel free to ghost - you're not obligated to remain friends with anyone.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:01 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
FWIW, I've definitely heard this argument from some trans people (usually the idea behind it is to protect trans people from assault).
It also strikes me that there are two categories of things going on here. There's the concrete, where you feel like you can't talk to her about your life and identity - that seems to me to be the real problem. And then there's the abstract, where you guys disagree about some hypothetical stuff that will 100% never happen. That seems less important to me (cis hetero white dude, so you know, salt to taste on that one). But like, this vague future utopia where gender doesn't exist and we're reconfiguring the physical construction of every building in America - that's never going to arrive, so I'm not sure arguing about it gets you anywhere.
But, but, BUT. If you don't feel comfortable talking to her about real things that are happening in your life, that's a whole other thing. In that case, there's no need for you to stay friends with her. If you want to give it one last try, you could do a cards on the table conversation about "I don't want to argue about the true nature of gender, I want to talk about how the shit you say makes me feel." But also feel free to ghost - you're not obligated to remain friends with anyone.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:01 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
She has a right to her opinion.
Yup. And you have a right to protect yourself and not listen to her toxic bullshit anymore.
I feel like I can't talk about most of the important things in my life with her, and our conversations are really awkward.
This is a GREAT reason to stop being friends, and personally, I would tell her that this is why you don't want to keep being friends with her.
I'm really sorry you're going through this. It sucks.
posted by rtha at 9:16 AM on March 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
Yup. And you have a right to protect yourself and not listen to her toxic bullshit anymore.
I feel like I can't talk about most of the important things in my life with her, and our conversations are really awkward.
This is a GREAT reason to stop being friends, and personally, I would tell her that this is why you don't want to keep being friends with her.
I'm really sorry you're going through this. It sucks.
posted by rtha at 9:16 AM on March 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: I have a couple of further...questions? Needs for reassurance? Thoughts?
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship. "Why didn't I tell her", etc. I have a scenario in my head where I belt up, read up, prepare all my arguments and have a real debate about gender, history, the likelihood of a major infrastructure overhaul*, etc....and that this would be the fair, authentic, adult thing to do. I know I will lose, though - partly because she spends a huge amount of time arguing about this stuff and I try to avoid it because, like, it's my actual life.
But would it be more moral to do this?
What would be a better way to handle this in the future with different people? What strategies do you use to set boundaries in the moment? I feel like part of the problem here is that we've been friends a long, long time and our behavior patterns date from when I was a much flinchier person.
Also, in fairness, I am sure that she feels that she can't talk about her experiences or politics with me anymore, either.
*What bugs me about that is that it's not feasible - very expensive, takes up more physical space to have enough changing cubicles for all than to have shared space, etc, so saying " this is my solution" is like saying "there is no solution". It's not the same as saying "let's make individual stalls/cubicles available to people who want them". Also, a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
posted by Frowner at 9:18 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship. "Why didn't I tell her", etc. I have a scenario in my head where I belt up, read up, prepare all my arguments and have a real debate about gender, history, the likelihood of a major infrastructure overhaul*, etc....and that this would be the fair, authentic, adult thing to do. I know I will lose, though - partly because she spends a huge amount of time arguing about this stuff and I try to avoid it because, like, it's my actual life.
But would it be more moral to do this?
What would be a better way to handle this in the future with different people? What strategies do you use to set boundaries in the moment? I feel like part of the problem here is that we've been friends a long, long time and our behavior patterns date from when I was a much flinchier person.
Also, in fairness, I am sure that she feels that she can't talk about her experiences or politics with me anymore, either.
*What bugs me about that is that it's not feasible - very expensive, takes up more physical space to have enough changing cubicles for all than to have shared space, etc, so saying " this is my solution" is like saying "there is no solution". It's not the same as saying "let's make individual stalls/cubicles available to people who want them". Also, a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
posted by Frowner at 9:18 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
As a professional thinker/arguer/lecturer (and, my boo would require to me admit: ranter) about gender, I have a whole lot of grar-responses to the substance of her arguments, and as a lefty academic type, I have zero interest at this point in any kind of "after the revolution" or "after ideology" fantasizing about anything. We live in the world we live in, there is no outside to ideology, and those individual cubicle changing rooms just ain't gonna get built, even if that were a good idea (which I do not think it is, just to be clear).
But that doesn't even seem like the point; I say that only to answer your explicit questions about what she's saying, and to affirm that I do not like it. And I am a cis woman with some serious feelings about the feminist utopia!
The real problem seems to be that she's not willing to have these conversations with you as conversations. She's condescendingly explaining trans politics to a gender non-conforming person in a remarkably tone deaf way, and doing so without regard for your knowledge (both experiential and theoretical), or the fact that the stakes of this conversation might be higher and more personal to you. Can you ask her how she'd feel if a man explained feminism to her? And did so in a way that she neither agreed with or felt resonated with her experience? Or, maybe don't do that. Maybe just fantasize about doing that.
Gender is complicated and personal and hard to come to terms with, and a friend who doesn't understand that personal experience isn't always going to perfectly reflect theoretical models doesn't seem like much of a friend at all. Friends should be invested in your happiness and should treat you with care and kindness, not use your experiences to argue against you in what's an abstract fight for them. Definitely don't apologize, ghost if that feels right, or end the friendship however you wish. But there is no reason for you to keep enduring this.
(Also, I have to admit that as I read this question, I started looking forward to what a smart answer you would have to it, so I was doubly saddened to see that it was your question: both because I didn't get to read that answer, and because I'm sorry you're in this position.)
posted by dizziest at 9:20 AM on March 2, 2017 [38 favorites]
But that doesn't even seem like the point; I say that only to answer your explicit questions about what she's saying, and to affirm that I do not like it. And I am a cis woman with some serious feelings about the feminist utopia!
The real problem seems to be that she's not willing to have these conversations with you as conversations. She's condescendingly explaining trans politics to a gender non-conforming person in a remarkably tone deaf way, and doing so without regard for your knowledge (both experiential and theoretical), or the fact that the stakes of this conversation might be higher and more personal to you. Can you ask her how she'd feel if a man explained feminism to her? And did so in a way that she neither agreed with or felt resonated with her experience? Or, maybe don't do that. Maybe just fantasize about doing that.
Gender is complicated and personal and hard to come to terms with, and a friend who doesn't understand that personal experience isn't always going to perfectly reflect theoretical models doesn't seem like much of a friend at all. Friends should be invested in your happiness and should treat you with care and kindness, not use your experiences to argue against you in what's an abstract fight for them. Definitely don't apologize, ghost if that feels right, or end the friendship however you wish. But there is no reason for you to keep enduring this.
(Also, I have to admit that as I read this question, I started looking forward to what a smart answer you would have to it, so I was doubly saddened to see that it was your question: both because I didn't get to read that answer, and because I'm sorry you're in this position.)
posted by dizziest at 9:20 AM on March 2, 2017 [38 favorites]
Also, a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
This on its own would be enough for me to never talk to her again.
posted by dizziest at 9:22 AM on March 2, 2017 [61 favorites]
This on its own would be enough for me to never talk to her again.
posted by dizziest at 9:22 AM on March 2, 2017 [61 favorites]
You don't have to think she's a horrible person to think that's she is toxic to you. She's not a good friend to you, and she's not a healthy relationship for you. You should ghost out for YOU. Also, you aren't her debate partner. You don't have to debate her issues with her. That's her gig, not yours.
If she asks, then just tell her the truth. "Our conversations are really awkward. You consistently make small upsetting comments, and I feel that I have to argue for my gender identity."
Seriously, drop her like a bad habit and don't look back. No one deserves "friends" who make them feel small and defensive.
posted by 26.2 at 9:24 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
If she asks, then just tell her the truth. "Our conversations are really awkward. You consistently make small upsetting comments, and I feel that I have to argue for my gender identity."
Seriously, drop her like a bad habit and don't look back. No one deserves "friends" who make them feel small and defensive.
posted by 26.2 at 9:24 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I am wondering what you do get out of this friendship? I think there is a value in having friendships and conversations with people different from ourselves, who push and challenge us. But questioning core parts of our identity crosses a line for me. And using "intellectual arguments" as a cover for transphobia also does not work for me. There does come a point in which you have to ask yourself if your life is enriched by the relationship. Just as with a romantic or sexual relationship, does this person make your life bigger or smaller? IMO, life is too short to spend it sharing our energy with people who make us feel small.
posted by anya32 at 9:26 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by anya32 at 9:26 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship. "Why didn't I tell her", etc. I have a scenario in my head where I belt up, read up, prepare all my arguments and have a real debate about gender, history, the likelihood of a major infrastructure overhaul*, etc....and that this would be the fair, authentic, adult thing to do. I know I will lose, though - partly because she spends a huge amount of time arguing about this stuff and I try to avoid it because, like, it's my actual life.
Aw, man ... this sounds like so much work and emotional energy for you to put into something you KNOW is not going to work out. The moral thing would be for her to have LISTENED to you and have lent weight to your experiences as they pertain to your own life.
I honestly think it's okay if she thinks it was "childish and weak" for you not to have gone through this one more time (well, not okay but it doesn't need to matter to you - she truly isn't the arbiter of when you're "allowed" to give up on trying to help her see reason!). You have big, important things to do with your life. The energy you pour into one more round of argument here is energy you're not putting into self care or into helping people/situations you want to and can help.
For whatever it's worth, I absolutely support you ghosting or distancing yourself from this person with no further argument. Don't bash yourself into a wall, again, just because she'd expect you to.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:26 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Aw, man ... this sounds like so much work and emotional energy for you to put into something you KNOW is not going to work out. The moral thing would be for her to have LISTENED to you and have lent weight to your experiences as they pertain to your own life.
I honestly think it's okay if she thinks it was "childish and weak" for you not to have gone through this one more time (well, not okay but it doesn't need to matter to you - she truly isn't the arbiter of when you're "allowed" to give up on trying to help her see reason!). You have big, important things to do with your life. The energy you pour into one more round of argument here is energy you're not putting into self care or into helping people/situations you want to and can help.
For whatever it's worth, I absolutely support you ghosting or distancing yourself from this person with no further argument. Don't bash yourself into a wall, again, just because she'd expect you to.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:26 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
You choose whether you feel strong enough and safe enough to discuss this with her. You choose.
That said, if you choose to engage (maybe viewing it as practice for other written or oral discussions later, maybe viewing it as your opportunity to engage with and possibly persuade one person), then here's one thought.
"Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences or my friends' experiences" - in my opinion, this is less strong than simply:
"Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences."
She can't reasonably argue with your feelings or your personal experiences. You are the authority on you. Furthermore, this avoids the "false consensus" argument she was trying to make.
Finally, telling real stories, first person stories about your feelings and experiences, or even specific stories about one of your friends (maybe get permission first), is probably going to be your most compelling avenue.
She knows you, she seems to like you well enough to spend some time with you, so you have the opportunity to engage her emotionally.
I realize that you may not want to engage emotionally with this person. Thanks for considering it, and for continuing to treat her as an evolving human being instead of a monster.
(My hometown just appeared in the news again, so I've been reflecting on how I've evolved as a person and on how little opportunity the people back in that place have to be exposed to different perspectives)
posted by amtho at 9:28 AM on March 2, 2017
That said, if you choose to engage (maybe viewing it as practice for other written or oral discussions later, maybe viewing it as your opportunity to engage with and possibly persuade one person), then here's one thought.
"Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences or my friends' experiences" - in my opinion, this is less strong than simply:
"Your beliefs about gender don't match my experiences."
She can't reasonably argue with your feelings or your personal experiences. You are the authority on you. Furthermore, this avoids the "false consensus" argument she was trying to make.
Finally, telling real stories, first person stories about your feelings and experiences, or even specific stories about one of your friends (maybe get permission first), is probably going to be your most compelling avenue.
She knows you, she seems to like you well enough to spend some time with you, so you have the opportunity to engage her emotionally.
I realize that you may not want to engage emotionally with this person. Thanks for considering it, and for continuing to treat her as an evolving human being instead of a monster.
(My hometown just appeared in the news again, so I've been reflecting on how I've evolved as a person and on how little opportunity the people back in that place have to be exposed to different perspectives)
posted by amtho at 9:28 AM on March 2, 2017
Any 'prima facie' arguments out of her worldview (which is still in systematic incongruity with yours) which then presuppose the invalidity of your counterpoint, aren't something you should be needing to engage with further. Period. Especially as friends. Really, this makes me upset and mad. One shouldn't have to litigate one's own identity and agency, much less with a friend.
I am in very full support of whatever it takes to allow you to release this tension, and especially so if that means that you can remove yourself from her system of logic around arguments, equality, and parity in general. This is a bother. I'm wondering, as a thought experiment, what you would be doing if you were just becoming friends with this person, right now?
posted by a good beginning at 9:31 AM on March 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
I am in very full support of whatever it takes to allow you to release this tension, and especially so if that means that you can remove yourself from her system of logic around arguments, equality, and parity in general. This is a bother. I'm wondering, as a thought experiment, what you would be doing if you were just becoming friends with this person, right now?
posted by a good beginning at 9:31 AM on March 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship.
But it sounds like you've already had this argument! Why do you owe her one more variation on this same continually-frustrating argument? What could she say that would convince you she was worth keeping as a friend, and is there any realistic possibility that she will say that thing?
Unfortunately you can't stop her from believing you're childish and weak, just like you can't stop her from believing a lot of other dumb shit, but you can try to care less about what she thinks, and not engaging with her and listening to her arguments over and over will probably help with that.
I don't think there's anything you can do besides disengage. If she were going to change, it would have happened by now.
posted by mskyle at 9:32 AM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
But it sounds like you've already had this argument! Why do you owe her one more variation on this same continually-frustrating argument? What could she say that would convince you she was worth keeping as a friend, and is there any realistic possibility that she will say that thing?
Unfortunately you can't stop her from believing you're childish and weak, just like you can't stop her from believing a lot of other dumb shit, but you can try to care less about what she thinks, and not engaging with her and listening to her arguments over and over will probably help with that.
I don't think there's anything you can do besides disengage. If she were going to change, it would have happened by now.
posted by mskyle at 9:32 AM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
> I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship.
Too bad! She can feel whatever she wants - as she clearly does now anyway - and you are in no way obligated to engage this argument. You do not have to play a game in which she sets all the rules.
You are really overthinking these beans (which I totally understand, but this is not a trait that always serves us well). She is not being an actual friend to you. She does not respect you as a person and has not been shy about letting you know this, and making you feel like you have to present arguments as to why you deserve to be who you are. Please think about the advice you would offer a random mefite who told stories like this in e.g. the emotional labor thread, because I would bet money you would tell them to prioritize their time, mental health, and safety and stop being friends with someone like this.
Be your own helpful mefite!
She got pissy when you mentioned you started wearing actual made-for-dudes shirts? WHAT? Who DOES this?
posted by rtha at 9:33 AM on March 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
Too bad! She can feel whatever she wants - as she clearly does now anyway - and you are in no way obligated to engage this argument. You do not have to play a game in which she sets all the rules.
You are really overthinking these beans (which I totally understand, but this is not a trait that always serves us well). She is not being an actual friend to you. She does not respect you as a person and has not been shy about letting you know this, and making you feel like you have to present arguments as to why you deserve to be who you are. Please think about the advice you would offer a random mefite who told stories like this in e.g. the emotional labor thread, because I would bet money you would tell them to prioritize their time, mental health, and safety and stop being friends with someone like this.
Be your own helpful mefite!
She got pissy when you mentioned you started wearing actual made-for-dudes shirts? WHAT? Who DOES this?
posted by rtha at 9:33 AM on March 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
Before I decided to engage, I would ask myself what my desired outcome from the engagement was. Then I would figure out what the probability of that outcome occurring was. Is your goal to show that you will stand up for yourself and the outcome is her respect? Is it to convince her to change her way of thinking?
I think you should find a level of standing up for yourself or what you believe in that which makes you comfortable. If having this argument with her is within that and she is the type of person to respect someone who stands up to her bullying, go for it. If you think you are going to change her mind and that is your only goal, I personally do not think it is worth engaging. She will not change. She gets paid to argue. She would have to be self aware enough to admit she is changing a long held belief and would also have to in a small way admit that she is not that good at her job of arguing. Both unlikely outcomes.
Two people can be married or be friends and not agree on all issues or even on some major issues. Some people just don't talk politics with their spouses or friends. To me, this is not one of those issues you can avoid or put on a shelf. This is about your identity. This is her not accepting your identity, who you are, your very essence as a person.
There may be enough value in the friendship to overcome her denying who you are. I do not have enough information from your post and it is a personal decision only you can make. But if this were me, I would do the slow fade. The work you need to put in to make this relationship work and the anxiety it causes far outstrips the benefits as I see it.
posted by AugustWest at 9:43 AM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think you should find a level of standing up for yourself or what you believe in that which makes you comfortable. If having this argument with her is within that and she is the type of person to respect someone who stands up to her bullying, go for it. If you think you are going to change her mind and that is your only goal, I personally do not think it is worth engaging. She will not change. She gets paid to argue. She would have to be self aware enough to admit she is changing a long held belief and would also have to in a small way admit that she is not that good at her job of arguing. Both unlikely outcomes.
Two people can be married or be friends and not agree on all issues or even on some major issues. Some people just don't talk politics with their spouses or friends. To me, this is not one of those issues you can avoid or put on a shelf. This is about your identity. This is her not accepting your identity, who you are, your very essence as a person.
There may be enough value in the friendship to overcome her denying who you are. I do not have enough information from your post and it is a personal decision only you can make. But if this were me, I would do the slow fade. The work you need to put in to make this relationship work and the anxiety it causes far outstrips the benefits as I see it.
posted by AugustWest at 9:43 AM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
If you feel bad when you interact with someone, you do not need any other reason to avoid interaction with them.
posted by grouse at 9:47 AM on March 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by grouse at 9:47 AM on March 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship.
I say this as someone who has often erred waaaaaaaaaay too far on the professional arguer side: if that is how she feels, then fuck her. For serious. Are you both eighteen? A dogmatic inability to modulate theory with experience and a total commitment to intellectual argument as the only legitimate means of processing disagreement is understandable if you're, like, both in college (okay, grad school). Beyond that, it's puerile. To think someone is "childish" and "weak" for not wanting to repeatedly engage on a topic that is clearly very personal and emotionally-charged is itself infantile. You don't have to let her set the standards on this. You shouldn't let her set the standards on this. I don't feel competent to advise on whether you should dump her as a friend altogether, but I do feel confident saying that you don't owe her any particular style of interaction or any further conversation on the subject.
(And, yes, I agree with the people above saying that "scratch a gender abolitionist, find a TERF" may very well apply here.)
posted by praemunire at 9:50 AM on March 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
I say this as someone who has often erred waaaaaaaaaay too far on the professional arguer side: if that is how she feels, then fuck her. For serious. Are you both eighteen? A dogmatic inability to modulate theory with experience and a total commitment to intellectual argument as the only legitimate means of processing disagreement is understandable if you're, like, both in college (okay, grad school). Beyond that, it's puerile. To think someone is "childish" and "weak" for not wanting to repeatedly engage on a topic that is clearly very personal and emotionally-charged is itself infantile. You don't have to let her set the standards on this. You shouldn't let her set the standards on this. I don't feel competent to advise on whether you should dump her as a friend altogether, but I do feel confident saying that you don't owe her any particular style of interaction or any further conversation on the subject.
(And, yes, I agree with the people above saying that "scratch a gender abolitionist, find a TERF" may very well apply here.)
posted by praemunire at 9:50 AM on March 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
Also, a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
Annnnnnd I withdraw any charity that my previous answer extended toward her. You should ghost her so hard that she has to hold a seance.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:54 AM on March 2, 2017 [29 favorites]
Annnnnnd I withdraw any charity that my previous answer extended toward her. You should ghost her so hard that she has to hold a seance.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:54 AM on March 2, 2017 [29 favorites]
responses to your responses:
1. re your head scenario: you being respected by your friends is not something you should have to argue like it is a court of law. please consider this. would you expect anybody ever to bust out something like this in order to convince you out of a line of reasoning that is abstract to you, concrete to them, and clearly hurtful to them?
socratic obnoxious answer: fuck no, dear god no, no it's not "moral" to do that, oh my god
2. boundary setting strategies w/ friends, colleagues when no longer being a flinchy person: how are your boundary setting strategies in general? do you have a shrink or some trusted friends you can workshop this with? i have found being able to ask people i trust "is this normal? does this seem ok to you?" helped a lot when i was configuring my boundaries. i am also wondering if you are worried that you will drive everyone away if you have ethical expectations, like you're low key worried there are no settings between "doormat" and "strident to the point of being obnoxious/verbally abusive tumblr ass person"
Also, in fairness, I am sure that she feels that she can't talk about her experiences or politics with me anymore, either.
oh boo hoo. someone who has shitty ideas feels like they can't talk to a person their shitty ideas hurt. fuck this person
a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
second verse, same as the first, with oom pah horns and a bear riding a tricycle: fuck this person
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 9:56 AM on March 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
1. re your head scenario: you being respected by your friends is not something you should have to argue like it is a court of law. please consider this. would you expect anybody ever to bust out something like this in order to convince you out of a line of reasoning that is abstract to you, concrete to them, and clearly hurtful to them?
socratic obnoxious answer: fuck no, dear god no, no it's not "moral" to do that, oh my god
2. boundary setting strategies w/ friends, colleagues when no longer being a flinchy person: how are your boundary setting strategies in general? do you have a shrink or some trusted friends you can workshop this with? i have found being able to ask people i trust "is this normal? does this seem ok to you?" helped a lot when i was configuring my boundaries. i am also wondering if you are worried that you will drive everyone away if you have ethical expectations, like you're low key worried there are no settings between "doormat" and "strident to the point of being obnoxious/verbally abusive tumblr ass person"
Also, in fairness, I am sure that she feels that she can't talk about her experiences or politics with me anymore, either.
oh boo hoo. someone who has shitty ideas feels like they can't talk to a person their shitty ideas hurt. fuck this person
a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
second verse, same as the first, with oom pah horns and a bear riding a tricycle: fuck this person
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 9:56 AM on March 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
I have a neurological difference/identity difference that is generally not very societally accepted (or at least doesn't look like it does in pop culture) and which overlaps some with trans issues. I have friends that do not even believe my identity is possible.
My approach has been to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to continue the friendship, or downgrade it. I have a group of friends where I am more or less closeted by default. I accept that but it means that our friendship functions more on the "we do things together" level and less on the "we know loads about each other" level. There are conversations we just don't have. They are worth it in other ways, and don't make me feel actively bad about myself now. (Some did at the time I was coming out to them.)
But no, they don't get "the real me." They haven't earned the real me.
If they start in I say "this isn't a good conversation for us to have unless your views have changed." And that's either respected or that's it.
I realize this is not something everyone wants to do and that's fine. But it has been an option for me.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:59 AM on March 2, 2017
My approach has been to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to continue the friendship, or downgrade it. I have a group of friends where I am more or less closeted by default. I accept that but it means that our friendship functions more on the "we do things together" level and less on the "we know loads about each other" level. There are conversations we just don't have. They are worth it in other ways, and don't make me feel actively bad about myself now. (Some did at the time I was coming out to them.)
But no, they don't get "the real me." They haven't earned the real me.
If they start in I say "this isn't a good conversation for us to have unless your views have changed." And that's either respected or that's it.
I realize this is not something everyone wants to do and that's fine. But it has been an option for me.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:59 AM on March 2, 2017
that this would be the fair, authentic, adult thing to do
This kind of reminds me of the old adage about how "love is a verb". Friendship is not a default state that, once created, must be actively broken by one party in order to no longer exist. Friendship is an ongoing series of efforts by both parties to be friends. "Authentic" friendship does not require you to draft and submit a complaint and let her respond to every item on the list individually before you're allowed to not be friends anymore. You're allowed to not be friends anymore because she is not being your friend. There's no such thing as friendship lawyering. If she isn't demonstrating that she cares about and supports you, the real you, on an ongoing basis, then she isn't your friend and you don't have to treat her like she is until you formally break off the friendship.
posted by Sequence at 10:01 AM on March 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
This kind of reminds me of the old adage about how "love is a verb". Friendship is not a default state that, once created, must be actively broken by one party in order to no longer exist. Friendship is an ongoing series of efforts by both parties to be friends. "Authentic" friendship does not require you to draft and submit a complaint and let her respond to every item on the list individually before you're allowed to not be friends anymore. You're allowed to not be friends anymore because she is not being your friend. There's no such thing as friendship lawyering. If she isn't demonstrating that she cares about and supports you, the real you, on an ongoing basis, then she isn't your friend and you don't have to treat her like she is until you formally break off the friendship.
posted by Sequence at 10:01 AM on March 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Fuuuuuck her on a few levels. On the "her notions about gender are terrible, I'm embarrassed to have her calling herself a feminist, fuck all of that" level, and also on the person level where even if the thing you disagreed about were not a major identity issue, the way she seems to deal with things sounds fucking terrible.
She gets to have an opinion, sure. But she doesn't get to insist that you engage in long drawn-out debates about anything, much less your personal gender identity, if you do not want to. She doesn't get to bully you, or never apologize for hurting you, or disrespect you. She sounds like a terrible friend. If she were acting this way about your taste in sandwiches I'd say she's a terrible friend, much less an actual, real, important issue of identity.
If a stranger's permission helps, you have my full permission to ghost on her, or try to save the friendship with one final conversation if you want to do that, or write her a letter explaining your feelings and then walk away, or whatever will let you change or end this friendship feeling you have done what your personal ethical code requires. You don't have to keep or end the friendship on her terms.
My personal take is that it sounds like the effort it would take to try to turn her into an actual good friend and person is enormous, and you do not owe it to anyone to hurt or break yourself against that wall. If you were my friend, I would try to gently convince you that there are other friends in the world who will love and support you for who you are, and will not try to turn your actual lived experience into a shitty game of "fun" arguments, and you should walk away.
(In case it matters, I am: cisgender, female, queer, fat and extremely shy about my body and personally wishing to live in the single-cubicle dreamworld where I never ever ever have to expose my body to anyone in a changing room or anywhere else for reasons that have nothing to do with my gender or others' genders, and never for a single second traumatized by seeing any physical configuration of a trans person that I can possibly imagine.)
posted by Stacey at 10:06 AM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
She gets to have an opinion, sure. But she doesn't get to insist that you engage in long drawn-out debates about anything, much less your personal gender identity, if you do not want to. She doesn't get to bully you, or never apologize for hurting you, or disrespect you. She sounds like a terrible friend. If she were acting this way about your taste in sandwiches I'd say she's a terrible friend, much less an actual, real, important issue of identity.
If a stranger's permission helps, you have my full permission to ghost on her, or try to save the friendship with one final conversation if you want to do that, or write her a letter explaining your feelings and then walk away, or whatever will let you change or end this friendship feeling you have done what your personal ethical code requires. You don't have to keep or end the friendship on her terms.
My personal take is that it sounds like the effort it would take to try to turn her into an actual good friend and person is enormous, and you do not owe it to anyone to hurt or break yourself against that wall. If you were my friend, I would try to gently convince you that there are other friends in the world who will love and support you for who you are, and will not try to turn your actual lived experience into a shitty game of "fun" arguments, and you should walk away.
(In case it matters, I am: cisgender, female, queer, fat and extremely shy about my body and personally wishing to live in the single-cubicle dreamworld where I never ever ever have to expose my body to anyone in a changing room or anywhere else for reasons that have nothing to do with my gender or others' genders, and never for a single second traumatized by seeing any physical configuration of a trans person that I can possibly imagine.)
posted by Stacey at 10:06 AM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
It is so hilariously funny and strange to me that she evokes Engels' "false consciousness" as a way of invalidating your own personal experience, when it is actually meant to apply to groups in a class consciousness context. Trans individuals do not have a class or group consciousness because of the way they have been treated and assimilated over the centuries; there is a long history of trans individuals never being able to live as trans individuals but rather as hidden cisgendered presenters, which rejects the notion of Marxist feminism claiming that women's liberation can only be achieved through a radical restructuring of the current capitalist economy in which much of women's labor is uncompensated.
She's logically consistent in her transphobia, I'll give her that. You can dismiss her philosophy out of hand, it's not applicable to today's modern world. How very sad for her and her world view.
posted by juniperesque at 10:06 AM on March 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
She's logically consistent in her transphobia, I'll give her that. You can dismiss her philosophy out of hand, it's not applicable to today's modern world. How very sad for her and her world view.
posted by juniperesque at 10:06 AM on March 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm trans, fwiw, albeit very binary.
Validation of one's gender identity isn't open to traditional opinion vs opinion debate. This is her comfort vs your identity, and by extension, your well-being. She is not accepting of you and she has no place speaking for trans people. She is not a friend.
posted by Wossname at 10:07 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Validation of one's gender identity isn't open to traditional opinion vs opinion debate. This is her comfort vs your identity, and by extension, your well-being. She is not accepting of you and she has no place speaking for trans people. She is not a friend.
posted by Wossname at 10:07 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I have a scenario in my head where I belt up, read up, prepare all my arguments and have a real debate about gender, history, the likelihood of a major infrastructure overhaul*, etc....and that this would be the fair, authentic, adult thing to do. I
The "fair, authentic, adult thing to do" in these situations is to build up trust over time, on both sides. You have attempted to do that, by sharing what felt safe to share. She reciprocated by arguing with you, which is not a fair, adult way of handling a friend's emotions. You don't trust her right now because she hasn't earned your trust, and has in fact repeatedly destroyed your trust. She's not a safe person for you. You do not have to expose your vulnerability to someone who is not a safe person, especially not to convince them that you are an actual human being worthy of respect and dignity. You are worthy of respect and dignity, full stop, and her inability to recognize that is a good sign that you should protect yourself and step away.
posted by lazuli at 10:29 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
The "fair, authentic, adult thing to do" in these situations is to build up trust over time, on both sides. You have attempted to do that, by sharing what felt safe to share. She reciprocated by arguing with you, which is not a fair, adult way of handling a friend's emotions. You don't trust her right now because she hasn't earned your trust, and has in fact repeatedly destroyed your trust. She's not a safe person for you. You do not have to expose your vulnerability to someone who is not a safe person, especially not to convince them that you are an actual human being worthy of respect and dignity. You are worthy of respect and dignity, full stop, and her inability to recognize that is a good sign that you should protect yourself and step away.
posted by lazuli at 10:29 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Re your update: Ask yourself why you are giving this person power over you? Do you really need her permission to withdraw from the friendship?
I bet when you're not around she talks about as her "trans" friend.
She had her shot to learn about your experience first hand. Spend your energy elsewhere. Also, Live Your Truth.
posted by jbenben at 10:50 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I bet when you're not around she talks about as her "trans" friend.
She had her shot to learn about your experience first hand. Spend your energy elsewhere. Also, Live Your Truth.
posted by jbenben at 10:50 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Winning an argument by creating a world entirely separate from reality is like winning a wrestling match. It doesn't make them right, it just means they win, in this case by picking an arbitrary set of givens, favorable to their position, and then performing intellectual exercises on them.
Like, in math, with the "right" assumptions, you can "prove" that 2=5. Whether this has a connection to the actual world is another matter.
Your friend has a right to be an ass, or maybe just scared about things and trying to rationalize it away as not their problem. You have a right to think it's bullshit or toxic and say so, or not say so. You don't owe anyone an argument.
posted by zippy at 10:55 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Like, in math, with the "right" assumptions, you can "prove" that 2=5. Whether this has a connection to the actual world is another matter.
Your friend has a right to be an ass, or maybe just scared about things and trying to rationalize it away as not their problem. You have a right to think it's bullshit or toxic and say so, or not say so. You don't owe anyone an argument.
posted by zippy at 10:55 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trying to argue with this woman would be an exercise in pointlessness, because she has already decided that she doesn't care what you have to say. She is the one who is being irrational and immature, because no amount of evidence will ever change her beliefs, no matter how valid the evidence is. I urge you not to bother. She will not listen.
She fucking sucks, you are 100% in the right, and I think you should tell her something like - look. I am sick and tired of having this argument with you, and after giving it some thought I have decided that I'm no longer interested in having it, so we can't be friends anymore, BYE. And then, when she tries to argue with you (as she most definitely will), IGNORE HER.
She's the one who's obsessed with winning arguments - you don't have to be.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:07 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
She fucking sucks, you are 100% in the right, and I think you should tell her something like - look. I am sick and tired of having this argument with you, and after giving it some thought I have decided that I'm no longer interested in having it, so we can't be friends anymore, BYE. And then, when she tries to argue with you (as she most definitely will), IGNORE HER.
She's the one who's obsessed with winning arguments - you don't have to be.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:07 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
Cis person here, and like. As somebody who tries to be an ally, I can't the fuck even and am judging your friend so hard.
Analogies are not always helpful, but to me, a corresponding-ish situation in the context of the feminism your friend likely subscribes to is, like, whether she continue a friendship with a man who believed that it is "super traumatic" for cis men to see cis women's bodies that haven't been brought up to [insert socially-enforced standard about appearance here]. No? Would she feel obligated to treat this person as gently and kindly as you have treated her over time? Would she continue to try to educate this person after initial efforts resulted in ridiculously bigoted statements? Would she continue invest her mental and emotional energy in this friendship if she couldn't talk about important parts of her life with him, and felt that he was hostile and judging her if she tried?
And even if she would be, fuck that, because her opinions and stupid and wrong and bigoted and causing you personal harm. To merge themes others have articulated, if you want to, you should feel free to ghost her so hard she has to conduct a seance with om pah horns and a bear riding a tricycle and, like, the six-century old corpse of Nostradamus surrounded by scented Glade candles.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:10 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Cis person here, and like. As somebody who tries to be an ally, I can't the fuck even and am judging your friend so hard.
Analogies are not always helpful, but to me, a corresponding-ish situation in the context of the feminism your friend likely subscribes to is, like, whether she continue a friendship with a man who believed that it is "super traumatic" for cis men to see cis women's bodies that haven't been brought up to [insert socially-enforced standard about appearance here]. No? Would she feel obligated to treat this person as gently and kindly as you have treated her over time? Would she continue to try to educate this person after initial efforts resulted in ridiculously bigoted statements? Would she continue invest her mental and emotional energy in this friendship if she couldn't talk about important parts of her life with him, and felt that he was hostile and judging her if she tried?
And even if she would be, fuck that, because her opinions and stupid and wrong and bigoted and causing you personal harm. To merge themes others have articulated, if you want to, you should feel free to ghost her so hard she has to conduct a seance with om pah horns and a bear riding a tricycle and, like, the six-century old corpse of Nostradamus surrounded by scented Glade candles.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:10 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship.
Aha. Ahahaha. Ahahahahaha. She thinks you owe it to her to explain your position for the umpteenth milliionth time so she can tell you your feelings are entirely false and the product of an oppressive society and you can finally get mad and end the friendship and you're the one being childish?
She is the friend version of a fuckboy. She has created an unfair, unbalanced system whereby she always wins because she is always right, either because she's the "logical" one, the only one who can see the truth, or because she's the victim. If you want to tell her anything, tell her her insensitive, uncompassionate, and continuous comments trying to negate the validity of your own experience make her a giant baby who values argumentation over people. Seriously. How would you feel if a partner were treating you like this? There's no reason to put up with it just because she's a "friend".
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:13 AM on March 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
Aha. Ahahaha. Ahahahahaha. She thinks you owe it to her to explain your position for the umpteenth milliionth time so she can tell you your feelings are entirely false and the product of an oppressive society and you can finally get mad and end the friendship and you're the one being childish?
She is the friend version of a fuckboy. She has created an unfair, unbalanced system whereby she always wins because she is always right, either because she's the "logical" one, the only one who can see the truth, or because she's the victim. If you want to tell her anything, tell her her insensitive, uncompassionate, and continuous comments trying to negate the validity of your own experience make her a giant baby who values argumentation over people. Seriously. How would you feel if a partner were treating you like this? There's no reason to put up with it just because she's a "friend".
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:13 AM on March 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
What would be a better way to handle this in the future with different people? What strategies do you use to set boundaries in the moment? I feel like part of the problem here is that we've been friends a long, long time and our behavior patterns date from when I was a much flinchier person.
I think a firm, "That's not my experience and I'm not participating in this line of discussion." Or something like that to convey that 1- you don't want to discuss it and 2 - this isn't an abstract thing for you. It doesn't have to be aggressive but it does need to be assertive and to the point, and then not up for discussion. If they can't move on to other topics, then they're being shitty friends.
Also, in fairness, I am sure that she feels that she can't talk about her experiences or politics with me anymore, either.
This seems to be really common for a lot of people now, and on one hand it's sad but on the other hand I do think about the power dynamics and emotional labor of people working through stuff. If she needs to discuss gender matters with, she needs to find somebody who isn't dealing with it a lot on their own in a complicated way. I finally told a friend something like this recently, when she was talking about her struggles as a single, childless woman in a society that values married mothers. I gently pushed back with my struggles of non-conforming gender, but she doesn't think that's a real issue. She's entitled to vent but I don't want or need it given that it's tone deaf to me. (Sorry, I've been dealing with this a lot lately in a pretty mild, persistent, annoying form.)
So boundaries can be good, though they do limit certain kinds of intimacy.
posted by kendrak at 11:34 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think a firm, "That's not my experience and I'm not participating in this line of discussion." Or something like that to convey that 1- you don't want to discuss it and 2 - this isn't an abstract thing for you. It doesn't have to be aggressive but it does need to be assertive and to the point, and then not up for discussion. If they can't move on to other topics, then they're being shitty friends.
Also, in fairness, I am sure that she feels that she can't talk about her experiences or politics with me anymore, either.
This seems to be really common for a lot of people now, and on one hand it's sad but on the other hand I do think about the power dynamics and emotional labor of people working through stuff. If she needs to discuss gender matters with, she needs to find somebody who isn't dealing with it a lot on their own in a complicated way. I finally told a friend something like this recently, when she was talking about her struggles as a single, childless woman in a society that values married mothers. I gently pushed back with my struggles of non-conforming gender, but she doesn't think that's a real issue. She's entitled to vent but I don't want or need it given that it's tone deaf to me. (Sorry, I've been dealing with this a lot lately in a pretty mild, persistent, annoying form.)
So boundaries can be good, though they do limit certain kinds of intimacy.
posted by kendrak at 11:34 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
My dude, she is a terf, she does not deserve the honor of your acquaintance.
posted by Mizu at 11:38 AM on March 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 11:38 AM on March 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Oh yeah, I meant to comment on the trauma of seeing trans bodies... fuck that. There's a lot of trauma in the world and people just need to be more compassionate, but sometimes that means not dumping their shit on others. An added benefit of giving up my gym membership is no longer dealing with the awkward, uncomfortable stares of people seeing my mastectomy scars.
She's definitely in TERF territory to my ears.
posted by kendrak at 11:50 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
She's definitely in TERF territory to my ears.
posted by kendrak at 11:50 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
> I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship.
Oh wow, fuck that a LOT. Her argument is that your experiences, your perspective, in invalid, because she's found an author who feels differently. And she would want to argue more about that, say more hurtful things to you, before she allows you to stop hearing hurtful things by spending less time with her? "Oh, okay, you win. Trans identities are invalid. I guess it's time for me to buy a dress and be your best friend." Friendship isn't opt-out like that.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:54 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh wow, fuck that a LOT. Her argument is that your experiences, your perspective, in invalid, because she's found an author who feels differently. And she would want to argue more about that, say more hurtful things to you, before she allows you to stop hearing hurtful things by spending less time with her? "Oh, okay, you win. Trans identities are invalid. I guess it's time for me to buy a dress and be your best friend." Friendship isn't opt-out like that.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:54 AM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, a lot of her reasoning is based on the idea that it is super traumatic for cis women to see trans bodies, and they need to be protected from that trauma.
Well that's crap? I mean, what? I'm a cis woman, and I do not approve this message.
If she has such a problem seeing trans bodies, it sounds like she is the one who requires a private changing room all by herself. That seems a lot more fair than trying to stuff everyone else into one.
Also, uh, she can't really claim that she believes in a future of moving past gender when she can't handle you choosing different shirts. They're *shirts*. How is she scared of a shirt? In her stated future goal world, any person could choose any attire. She's not even internally consistent.
That having been said, none of this matters. You don't like arguing with her anymore, so don't. If you like, you can try to set a boundary of absolutely no discussion on this issue at all. If she starts in again, you leave. Or try ding training. Or really- just leave. Once you decide the friendship is over, then she has no control over you-- what she wants from you doesn't matter, because there is no friendship to preserve. She can go on wanting but it isn't your problem. (You can even be sad that she is hurt, but still see it as not your duty to resolve that hurt.)
posted by nat at 11:59 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well that's crap? I mean, what? I'm a cis woman, and I do not approve this message.
If she has such a problem seeing trans bodies, it sounds like she is the one who requires a private changing room all by herself. That seems a lot more fair than trying to stuff everyone else into one.
Also, uh, she can't really claim that she believes in a future of moving past gender when she can't handle you choosing different shirts. They're *shirts*. How is she scared of a shirt? In her stated future goal world, any person could choose any attire. She's not even internally consistent.
That having been said, none of this matters. You don't like arguing with her anymore, so don't. If you like, you can try to set a boundary of absolutely no discussion on this issue at all. If she starts in again, you leave. Or try ding training. Or really- just leave. Once you decide the friendship is over, then she has no control over you-- what she wants from you doesn't matter, because there is no friendship to preserve. She can go on wanting but it isn't your problem. (You can even be sad that she is hurt, but still see it as not your duty to resolve that hurt.)
posted by nat at 11:59 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I haven't read all the comments, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone.
I don't see anything you need to apologize for. It's up to you if she is valuable enough as a friend for other reasons to stay friendly - if not, ghosting makes the most sense because it sounds like, from your post and your update, she wants to have the argument. That she's invested a lot of her "I am a good person"-ness into her argument being a moral one, and therefore as good as (if not superior to) your lived experience. That's bullshit. But it's also an argument you'll never win, not because she's better than you at arguing, but because you are giving facts and she is giving philosophy. Philosophy will always win that sort of an argument, because it's based in what-ifs, and best-case-scenarios, and natural-extrapolations - all of which are fictions created by reasoning, not conclusions based on evidence. Fairy tales always beat science. They have clear morals and happier endings. That doesn't make them true or right.
It is not your job to have to argue your humanity to keep her as a friend. And it certainly isn't so she can keep you as one. She can't accept you as you are? She doesn't get to have you.
If you do want to keep her as a friend, the next time the topic comes up you can tell her, "I need you to change the subject now," or some variation on "we'll have to agree to disagree." And if she doesn't accept that and immediately switch gears, you can leave - actually physically remove yourself - until she gets that point. Or you can tell her that her opinions are damaging to you, and you can't be friends if she can't keep them to herself. And walk if she tries to take it back there. If she needs more "but whyyyy?" you can email her a link to some Trans 101 materials, or search terms to google to get them. Not because you owe them to her (you don't), or it's your job to educate her (it isn't), but because the part of you who still likes her and wants her to be a person you can like would want you to say you tried your best. But that's as far as I'd take it at this point.
The important thing is that you have tried to answer her, and to engage with her, and to explain. This is not you dropping the ball. At some point it's on her. It sounds like you've reached that point.
posted by Mchelly at 12:40 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't see anything you need to apologize for. It's up to you if she is valuable enough as a friend for other reasons to stay friendly - if not, ghosting makes the most sense because it sounds like, from your post and your update, she wants to have the argument. That she's invested a lot of her "I am a good person"-ness into her argument being a moral one, and therefore as good as (if not superior to) your lived experience. That's bullshit. But it's also an argument you'll never win, not because she's better than you at arguing, but because you are giving facts and she is giving philosophy. Philosophy will always win that sort of an argument, because it's based in what-ifs, and best-case-scenarios, and natural-extrapolations - all of which are fictions created by reasoning, not conclusions based on evidence. Fairy tales always beat science. They have clear morals and happier endings. That doesn't make them true or right.
It is not your job to have to argue your humanity to keep her as a friend. And it certainly isn't so she can keep you as one. She can't accept you as you are? She doesn't get to have you.
If you do want to keep her as a friend, the next time the topic comes up you can tell her, "I need you to change the subject now," or some variation on "we'll have to agree to disagree." And if she doesn't accept that and immediately switch gears, you can leave - actually physically remove yourself - until she gets that point. Or you can tell her that her opinions are damaging to you, and you can't be friends if she can't keep them to herself. And walk if she tries to take it back there. If she needs more "but whyyyy?" you can email her a link to some Trans 101 materials, or search terms to google to get them. Not because you owe them to her (you don't), or it's your job to educate her (it isn't), but because the part of you who still likes her and wants her to be a person you can like would want you to say you tried your best. But that's as far as I'd take it at this point.
The important thing is that you have tried to answer her, and to engage with her, and to explain. This is not you dropping the ball. At some point it's on her. It sounds like you've reached that point.
posted by Mchelly at 12:40 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think it really depends on how much you like her and would want her in your life if it weren't for this.
If the answer is that it's not that deep a friendship, I'd say that ghosting, or just cutting back, sound like a very reasonable approach that's not unkind to anybody.
If you feel, though, that you really do want to get to some deeper understanding with her, I guess I'd write her something like "In the end, this isn't abstract for me; it involves my life at the most basic level. I understand that you have a good heart* and that much of your discomfort with trans issues has to do with your very legitimate feelings about the ways that society is messed up about gender and sex. But to be told, by someone I consider a friend, that my fundamental understanding of who I am and how I want to live is illusory or otherwise wrong is more than I have the ability to deal with now. I care about you and respect you greatly, and I wish that on this matter you could accept and support me as a friend and fellow, and not try to "correct" or debate; put my real feelings and real life above philosophical stances and certainties; and remember that you know me, that I am someone who has always taken questions of truth, validity, and social constructs very seriously and have always thought tried to think deeply and critically about them. Treat me as a friend first and foremost, and give me the respect of accepting my experiences in good faith. There is such a dearth of people who strive honestly to understand what they oppose. Please let my friend be such a person, and be someone who accepts me and not one more person I have to advocate for myself against."
And figure out whether or how to go on based on her response.
The * is to say: that whole thing I wrote is obviously as gentle and kind of over-conciliatory and pleading as possible. If it feels too galling, by all means forget it, and I'm sorry. :p There's definitely nothing for you to apologize for, and while she has a right to her opinions and probably all of us have some pretty fucked-up ones we don't yet recognize, I think any truly moral approach to the complexity of life is one that counts kindness as a fundamental yardstick, and it is more than fair to insist on it from the people in your life.
posted by trig at 1:08 PM on March 2, 2017
If the answer is that it's not that deep a friendship, I'd say that ghosting, or just cutting back, sound like a very reasonable approach that's not unkind to anybody.
If you feel, though, that you really do want to get to some deeper understanding with her, I guess I'd write her something like "In the end, this isn't abstract for me; it involves my life at the most basic level. I understand that you have a good heart* and that much of your discomfort with trans issues has to do with your very legitimate feelings about the ways that society is messed up about gender and sex. But to be told, by someone I consider a friend, that my fundamental understanding of who I am and how I want to live is illusory or otherwise wrong is more than I have the ability to deal with now. I care about you and respect you greatly, and I wish that on this matter you could accept and support me as a friend and fellow, and not try to "correct" or debate; put my real feelings and real life above philosophical stances and certainties; and remember that you know me, that I am someone who has always taken questions of truth, validity, and social constructs very seriously and have always thought tried to think deeply and critically about them. Treat me as a friend first and foremost, and give me the respect of accepting my experiences in good faith. There is such a dearth of people who strive honestly to understand what they oppose. Please let my friend be such a person, and be someone who accepts me and not one more person I have to advocate for myself against."
And figure out whether or how to go on based on her response.
The * is to say: that whole thing I wrote is obviously as gentle and kind of over-conciliatory and pleading as possible. If it feels too galling, by all means forget it, and I'm sorry. :p There's definitely nothing for you to apologize for, and while she has a right to her opinions and probably all of us have some pretty fucked-up ones we don't yet recognize, I think any truly moral approach to the complexity of life is one that counts kindness as a fundamental yardstick, and it is more than fair to insist on it from the people in your life.
posted by trig at 1:08 PM on March 2, 2017
You shouldn't have to get into an argument with her/defend-yourself to be liked and respected by this crappy, crappy, lazy, "friend".
And honestly, anyone who says "after the revolution" seriously is someone to probably back away from.
posted by blueberry at 1:24 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
And honestly, anyone who says "after the revolution" seriously is someone to probably back away from.
posted by blueberry at 1:24 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Aside from everything else here, it sounds like this "friendship" is deeply stressful and unpleasant. If this were a close family member like your mom who you had a serious interest in keeping in your life, sure, it might be worth figuring out different ways to talk about this issue. But...honestly, you don't owe that to everyone in the world! So what if she thinks you're being immature and unfair by not having a lengthy argument over WHETHER YOU EXIST AS A HUMAN BEING? Let her think that, and move on to enjoying and nurturing relationships with people in your life who lift you up and make you feel awesome and supported.
Like, I think there are some interesting conversations to be had around the design of bathrooms/locker rooms -- I have a good friend who's an architect who's worked on some of these issues with companies who want to do better, and there are some pretty cool design choices that can be made and I think have the possibility of being adopted more and more in the future. However, none of that changes the fact that, like, you need to pee today, when most of those things haven't been built yet? If your friend can't respect that, she does not seem like a very awesome friend.
I would forget about trying to win/lose an argument over whether you "deserve" to stop subjecting yourself to this person -- breakups of any sort are unilateral decisions, no one gets to force you to stay friends with them simply because they have the better argument. You yourself get to decide whether this person's presence in your life is a net positive or a net negative, and from the description you've written, it sounds like this is a very big net negative.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:47 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Like, I think there are some interesting conversations to be had around the design of bathrooms/locker rooms -- I have a good friend who's an architect who's worked on some of these issues with companies who want to do better, and there are some pretty cool design choices that can be made and I think have the possibility of being adopted more and more in the future. However, none of that changes the fact that, like, you need to pee today, when most of those things haven't been built yet? If your friend can't respect that, she does not seem like a very awesome friend.
I would forget about trying to win/lose an argument over whether you "deserve" to stop subjecting yourself to this person -- breakups of any sort are unilateral decisions, no one gets to force you to stay friends with them simply because they have the better argument. You yourself get to decide whether this person's presence in your life is a net positive or a net negative, and from the description you've written, it sounds like this is a very big net negative.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:47 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship.
So what! You don't even like her that much! At some level you seem to be letting her feelings of "how to do friendship" overrule your own (legitimate! acceptable! understandable!) feelings. I think my feeling on the "notification" thing is that you don't need to have One More Big Talk on her terms, you can just explain what your terms are and the two of you can find a way to coexist, nor not.
I have had friends, in the past, who were against gay marriage because they thought marriage was bullshit. Or against "gays in the military" because they were against the military. And, hey, that is a thing that a person can believe. But, to my mind, there are many ways to be human and I didn't want to deal with them trotting out their abstract philosophy when I had a lot of very real friends and relatives who were being affected in real demonstrable ways by bullshit regressive policies. Life's too short. There are a lot of different ways to be friends with someone and it sounds like this sort of friendship doesn't work for you now, and may not have been great for you ever. The feelings you have about your trans identity is real. Your friend is not being cool about it, not being supportive, not being friendly. You'd have better interactions with a random stranger in many places than you are getting form her.
The way I look at it is that your time is precious. You should spend it with people who affirm the person you are and the choices you've made.
posted by jessamyn at 1:52 PM on March 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
So what! You don't even like her that much! At some level you seem to be letting her feelings of "how to do friendship" overrule your own (legitimate! acceptable! understandable!) feelings. I think my feeling on the "notification" thing is that you don't need to have One More Big Talk on her terms, you can just explain what your terms are and the two of you can find a way to coexist, nor not.
I have had friends, in the past, who were against gay marriage because they thought marriage was bullshit. Or against "gays in the military" because they were against the military. And, hey, that is a thing that a person can believe. But, to my mind, there are many ways to be human and I didn't want to deal with them trotting out their abstract philosophy when I had a lot of very real friends and relatives who were being affected in real demonstrable ways by bullshit regressive policies. Life's too short. There are a lot of different ways to be friends with someone and it sounds like this sort of friendship doesn't work for you now, and may not have been great for you ever. The feelings you have about your trans identity is real. Your friend is not being cool about it, not being supportive, not being friendly. You'd have better interactions with a random stranger in many places than you are getting form her.
The way I look at it is that your time is precious. You should spend it with people who affirm the person you are and the choices you've made.
posted by jessamyn at 1:52 PM on March 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Friends don't challenge each other's deeply held personal beliefs. If you were a different religion and she was constantly denigrating your faith, or if you worked in a field that she didn't believe should exist, she presumably wouldn't be so rude as to constantly challenge you at every turn. That's not how friends maintain friendships. The fact that she's doing this either means she doesn't value your friendship or is obsessed with this one issue in particular.
posted by miyabo at 2:37 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by miyabo at 2:37 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree with the general "ghost her and don't look back" advice. However, it's clear that that leaves you feeling unsatisfied. So then the main question is, do you feel unsatisfied because
1) you care what she thinks and want to either convince her or leave her with a good opinion with you, or
2) because you really like other aspects of her, and will be super sad to lose this person from your life over this single (even if large) issue?
If the answer is (1), then I think you need to let go -- you can't control how other people think, nor guarantee that they will appreciate you appropriately. If your answer is (2), then maybe you need to have one more "having it out," to expercise your own hope for human nature, get your own sense of closure, or act in keeping with your self-respect. Those are valid reasons for doing a hard thing, but be sure that you care enough to subject yourself to what is likely to be further abuse and sadness in service of those goals.
posted by acm at 3:08 PM on March 2, 2017
1) you care what she thinks and want to either convince her or leave her with a good opinion with you, or
2) because you really like other aspects of her, and will be super sad to lose this person from your life over this single (even if large) issue?
If the answer is (1), then I think you need to let go -- you can't control how other people think, nor guarantee that they will appreciate you appropriately. If your answer is (2), then maybe you need to have one more "having it out," to expercise your own hope for human nature, get your own sense of closure, or act in keeping with your self-respect. Those are valid reasons for doing a hard thing, but be sure that you care enough to subject yourself to what is likely to be further abuse and sadness in service of those goals.
posted by acm at 3:08 PM on March 2, 2017
" I know I will lose, though - partly because she spends a huge amount of time arguing about this stuff and I try to avoid it because, like, it's my actual life."
I'm not sure if this is good or bad advice, buuuuuuuut ... some conversational jujitsu that frequently works on mansplainey lawyers, especially when they're arguing something abstract for them but that you actually care about, is to let them go for a minute, and when they pause for your rebuttal, put on a kind and sympathetic face and say, "Wow, you seem really emotionally invested." "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I AM THE HIGH QUEEN OF LOGIC!" Take an even more sympathetic tone: "I know you think that." They keep arguing, and you say something like, "I know you're building these big logical structures to try to rationalize your intuitions and feelings, but you're really not responding at all to reasonable counterpoints, and there's just no point to having this argument with you when you're so passionately illogical."
Now, this feels a big different doing to women than to men because of the cultural freight of "you're just being emotional." But, dude, that sounds like what she's doing, and it drives them CRAZY, and they basically never argue with you again because they don't like being called emotional and bad at logic.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:46 PM on March 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
I'm not sure if this is good or bad advice, buuuuuuuut ... some conversational jujitsu that frequently works on mansplainey lawyers, especially when they're arguing something abstract for them but that you actually care about, is to let them go for a minute, and when they pause for your rebuttal, put on a kind and sympathetic face and say, "Wow, you seem really emotionally invested." "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I AM THE HIGH QUEEN OF LOGIC!" Take an even more sympathetic tone: "I know you think that." They keep arguing, and you say something like, "I know you're building these big logical structures to try to rationalize your intuitions and feelings, but you're really not responding at all to reasonable counterpoints, and there's just no point to having this argument with you when you're so passionately illogical."
Now, this feels a big different doing to women than to men because of the cultural freight of "you're just being emotional." But, dude, that sounds like what she's doing, and it drives them CRAZY, and they basically never argue with you again because they don't like being called emotional and bad at logic.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:46 PM on March 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
I am sure, based on past conversations, that she would feel that it was childish and weak not to be willing to argue this out for once and for all before downscaling the friendship
Fuck that. This isn't an intellectual exercise for you - it's your life and your identity.
I'm a person who tends to enjoy arguing-for-the-intellectual-challenge and "hey what if" totally theoretical talk, and sometimes I fail to realize that the person I'm talking to / arguing with is not enjoying the conversation . People have actually said to me things along the lines of "hey, this conversation isn't fun for me anymore, can we stop talking about this?" When that happens, I apologize (and it's something I try to be aware of & avoid generally).
I nth all the comments that you are well within your rights and well within social norms to just fade at this point. However, if you want to give her one more chance, I'd say something like, "Listen, I know this is really interesting to you and the ideas are really important to you, but it's really personal and emotional for me, and it's upsetting to me to have this kind of conversation. I don't want to talk about this kind of stuff with you anymore. Can you respect that decision even if you don't agree with it?"
At that point, she either respects that you are choosing not to have that conversation with her anymore or she doesn't. If she does respect your decision, you can have a scaled-back not too close friendship with her and avoid the subject. If she continues to press you to talk about trans* related issues, then she doesn't respect/care about you enough to stop doing something that hurts you.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:25 PM on March 2, 2017
Fuck that. This isn't an intellectual exercise for you - it's your life and your identity.
I'm a person who tends to enjoy arguing-for-the-intellectual-challenge and "hey what if" totally theoretical talk, and sometimes I fail to realize that the person I'm talking to / arguing with is not enjoying the conversation . People have actually said to me things along the lines of "hey, this conversation isn't fun for me anymore, can we stop talking about this?" When that happens, I apologize (and it's something I try to be aware of & avoid generally).
I nth all the comments that you are well within your rights and well within social norms to just fade at this point. However, if you want to give her one more chance, I'd say something like, "Listen, I know this is really interesting to you and the ideas are really important to you, but it's really personal and emotional for me, and it's upsetting to me to have this kind of conversation. I don't want to talk about this kind of stuff with you anymore. Can you respect that decision even if you don't agree with it?"
At that point, she either respects that you are choosing not to have that conversation with her anymore or she doesn't. If she does respect your decision, you can have a scaled-back not too close friendship with her and avoid the subject. If she continues to press you to talk about trans* related issues, then she doesn't respect/care about you enough to stop doing something that hurts you.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:25 PM on March 2, 2017
She is basically a professional arguer as her day job, so I am always at a loss in our arguments - I always lose, but that doesn't mean she's right. (Bolded for truth)
Because of her profession, her self-esteem may be closely tied to not losing arguments. That might be one reason why she's so keen to steamroller over your actual lived experience. Winning the argument may actually be more important to her at this point than being right.
It was generous of you to put the time and energy into this friendship that you did. But to learn anything, she'd have to admit she needed to learn; which would mean admitting she might have been wrong about some things; which would mean losing the argument.
So, stepping back from the friendship is not only a good way to protect yourself from her bullshit; it's probably also the best thing you can do for her. It isn't giving up. It's giving her the opportunity to take the next step on her journey. Without you there to argue with, she'll have to argue with herself. She'll have to reflect and introspect. She might even learn something.
In a year or two, you might run into each other and she might say "I've missed you! God, I was such an ass. I'm really sorry." Stepping back now without a definitive "breakup argument" leaves space for that to happen.
Or, she might learn nothing and keep quoting Dworkin till the end of her days, in which case stepping back was also the right thing to do.
Ghost away.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:40 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Because of her profession, her self-esteem may be closely tied to not losing arguments. That might be one reason why she's so keen to steamroller over your actual lived experience. Winning the argument may actually be more important to her at this point than being right.
It was generous of you to put the time and energy into this friendship that you did. But to learn anything, she'd have to admit she needed to learn; which would mean admitting she might have been wrong about some things; which would mean losing the argument.
So, stepping back from the friendship is not only a good way to protect yourself from her bullshit; it's probably also the best thing you can do for her. It isn't giving up. It's giving her the opportunity to take the next step on her journey. Without you there to argue with, she'll have to argue with herself. She'll have to reflect and introspect. She might even learn something.
In a year or two, you might run into each other and she might say "I've missed you! God, I was such an ass. I'm really sorry." Stepping back now without a definitive "breakup argument" leaves space for that to happen.
Or, she might learn nothing and keep quoting Dworkin till the end of her days, in which case stepping back was also the right thing to do.
Ghost away.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:40 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
aw, man! you shouldn't have to ARGUE FOR YOUR RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION, for the right to live and be seen and heard as WHO YOU ARE. damn.
she's not being a friend to you.
you ask if it would be more moral to have a big drawn out debate on the matter, before ending the friendship.
it's not immoral of you to stop engaging with her. it is an act of self-preservation in a society that is unkind (ranging to fatal) to gender nonconforming folks.
i think pallas athena is also right about how this might be an opportunity for her to learn something.
good luck and i hope you have some good allies and queer friends who can lift you up and celebrate style evolutions and other fun stuff with you!
ps god did she even LISTEN to her professors or READ any of these books!? she is twisting all this theory shit and using it the wrong way. lmao/wtf at her "false consciousness" argument.
posted by iahtl at 6:45 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
she's not being a friend to you.
you ask if it would be more moral to have a big drawn out debate on the matter, before ending the friendship.
it's not immoral of you to stop engaging with her. it is an act of self-preservation in a society that is unkind (ranging to fatal) to gender nonconforming folks.
i think pallas athena is also right about how this might be an opportunity for her to learn something.
good luck and i hope you have some good allies and queer friends who can lift you up and celebrate style evolutions and other fun stuff with you!
ps god did she even LISTEN to her professors or READ any of these books!? she is twisting all this theory shit and using it the wrong way. lmao/wtf at her "false consciousness" argument.
posted by iahtl at 6:45 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I haven't read the other replies but I did read your update.
I don't know how you put up with this person. Do you need a kidney, and she is the only possible donor? Does she hold the only other key to your safety deposit box? Jeez, just push her off a metaphorical cliff. You would have done that awhile back if she was spouting this garbage about race, right? Don't you have trans women friends? If it walks like a TERF and quacks like a TERF...
Gender ROLES are the construct of the patriarchy, and they are going away and will continue to do so. Gender roles are something you DO. Actions you take. Your gender is something you ARE. I am male, I don't care if I'm wearing a dress and makeup and knitting baby blankets. I am still male, and I am still trans because I was born with a body people do not consider to be male.
Even if the idea of gender is abolished, 95+% of people come with one of two sets of genitalia, so given the human propensity for using words to categorize things, we will assign labels to them.And yet some percentage of the time, the label that is assigned will be incorrect. I don't care if I wear a suit or a dress or a burlap sack, I don't belong in the body I was inflicted with at puberty. I know this even more keenly now because I just had top surgery and looking in the mirror at my flat chest is such an indescribably immense relief.
You have the patience of a Buddha. I would have cut this person off a long time ago. What good is having a friend if you can't be honest about yourself around her?
posted by AFABulous at 8:38 PM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't know how you put up with this person. Do you need a kidney, and she is the only possible donor? Does she hold the only other key to your safety deposit box? Jeez, just push her off a metaphorical cliff. You would have done that awhile back if she was spouting this garbage about race, right? Don't you have trans women friends? If it walks like a TERF and quacks like a TERF...
Gender ROLES are the construct of the patriarchy, and they are going away and will continue to do so. Gender roles are something you DO. Actions you take. Your gender is something you ARE. I am male, I don't care if I'm wearing a dress and makeup and knitting baby blankets. I am still male, and I am still trans because I was born with a body people do not consider to be male.
Even if the idea of gender is abolished, 95+% of people come with one of two sets of genitalia, so given the human propensity for using words to categorize things, we will assign labels to them.And yet some percentage of the time, the label that is assigned will be incorrect. I don't care if I wear a suit or a dress or a burlap sack, I don't belong in the body I was inflicted with at puberty. I know this even more keenly now because I just had top surgery and looking in the mirror at my flat chest is such an indescribably immense relief.
You have the patience of a Buddha. I would have cut this person off a long time ago. What good is having a friend if you can't be honest about yourself around her?
posted by AFABulous at 8:38 PM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Gender Identity and Phantom Genitalia
posted by AFABulous at 8:43 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
V.S. Ramachandran, a neurologist and psychologist at UC San Diego and a leading authority on phantom limb sensations, says it has long been known that some people who are born without arms have vivid phantom arms. They can swing them around, wave goodbye and make complicated gestures.[emphasis mine]
This suggests that an intact body image - the maps of the body laid down in the brain before and after birth - can develop without actual limbs. So-called mirror neurons that map the actions and intentions of others into one's own brain may help bring the phantoms to life, Ramachandran says.
But phantoms might also exist from the beginning of life. For transgender men and women, he says, the body image laid down prenatally could similarly differ from the external body anatomy.
posted by AFABulous at 8:43 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
my politics are great, if you want to be offended and stop being friends, that's on you
I think she's already answered your question, so mine to you is: what's in it for you?
posted by Kwadeng at 10:09 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think she's already answered your question, so mine to you is: what's in it for you?
posted by Kwadeng at 10:09 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Would it be more moral for you to try to have that 'final' argument before you end the friendship? No.
She might tell you it would be, because that's what she would want you to do, but that's actually not a reason to do it. It sounds like she's already got a lot of the fruitless debate she wants out of this relationship, and it hasn't made you any happier.
It's great that her views have moved on from what they were, really. You are not obligated to hold her hand as they improve further. You are allowed to do what's best for yourself.
Fellow gnc/trans-ish/nonbinary person here, giving you permission to fade out on her as smoothly as works for you. Good luck.
posted by daisyk at 11:25 PM on March 2, 2017
She might tell you it would be, because that's what she would want you to do, but that's actually not a reason to do it. It sounds like she's already got a lot of the fruitless debate she wants out of this relationship, and it hasn't made you any happier.
It's great that her views have moved on from what they were, really. You are not obligated to hold her hand as they improve further. You are allowed to do what's best for yourself.
Fellow gnc/trans-ish/nonbinary person here, giving you permission to fade out on her as smoothly as works for you. Good luck.
posted by daisyk at 11:25 PM on March 2, 2017
As a mixed-race/black person, i've endured acquaintances talking with me this way about political correctness. Not to discount our 'relationships' but I think having me around means they get to feel tolerant (token acquaintance) but also get to spout intolerance at the same time - like they can have it both ways and they don't need to change because 'hey, black girl over there likes me'.
I don't think you speak out enough. You don't have to and you do not owe her a thing but since she feels uncomfortable when you bring up anything trans, if she says something thoughtless again, I would respond with: 'Can you consider how I feel when you say things like that?' You don't need to be in a friendship with her but she has been able to go through life without being educated about how "the other" (to her) feels and she is getting away with not having to feel empathy. You don't need to fight but I think you should make it personal (i.e. talk about you) because then it becomes about tolerance and understanding within a friendship, not some ideal in her head about 'those people over there'. This will be difficult for her because in accepting your identity, she is going to have to revise her own. It's not your problem but I just wanted to highlight that it's probably not 'just' an opinion for her. If she dismisses your feelings after this or continues to talk the way she has been then she's a wrong-'un and you ought to let her go.
I am saying this based on the assumption that there are other things you both share that are worth holding onto. If you don't enjoy her company at all then of course, it's not worth maintaining this friendship. You're enduring pain for nothing. It's possible that you're doing this. When I was younger I was in friendships where I forgot to ask 'wait - do I even like this person?' Usually people like your friend. Sometimes you just 'pick up strays'* in life and forget to assess the actual viability for a good friendship.
*Sorry for using this language in reference to human beings but they were not very nice people.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:04 AM on March 3, 2017
I don't think you speak out enough. You don't have to and you do not owe her a thing but since she feels uncomfortable when you bring up anything trans, if she says something thoughtless again, I would respond with: 'Can you consider how I feel when you say things like that?' You don't need to be in a friendship with her but she has been able to go through life without being educated about how "the other" (to her) feels and she is getting away with not having to feel empathy. You don't need to fight but I think you should make it personal (i.e. talk about you) because then it becomes about tolerance and understanding within a friendship, not some ideal in her head about 'those people over there'. This will be difficult for her because in accepting your identity, she is going to have to revise her own. It's not your problem but I just wanted to highlight that it's probably not 'just' an opinion for her. If she dismisses your feelings after this or continues to talk the way she has been then she's a wrong-'un and you ought to let her go.
I am saying this based on the assumption that there are other things you both share that are worth holding onto. If you don't enjoy her company at all then of course, it's not worth maintaining this friendship. You're enduring pain for nothing. It's possible that you're doing this. When I was younger I was in friendships where I forgot to ask 'wait - do I even like this person?' Usually people like your friend. Sometimes you just 'pick up strays'* in life and forget to assess the actual viability for a good friendship.
*Sorry for using this language in reference to human beings but they were not very nice people.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:04 AM on March 3, 2017
Frowner, you asked: "But would it be more moral to do this?"
Absolutely not.
It's like fascists— you don't win them over with endless arguments. That normalizes their presence and gives them space in your community. You have to show them there are consequences to their beliefs, and you do that by cutting them off as friends, denying them a platform, and explaining to others exactly why their beliefs are offensive and why you're drawing those boundaries. You don't argue with them— you argue with your ten mutual friends who might still give a damn.
Now, you don't have to do that! I don't bother with many people. It's hard and you're also vulnerable since you're gnc/maybe-trans. You're also attached to this person in ways that none of us understand.
But that's how I appraise the moral stakes. You're not doing me, a trans femme, any favors by endlessly debating your TWERF friends. ♥
posted by yaymukund at 6:50 AM on March 3, 2017
Absolutely not.
It's like fascists— you don't win them over with endless arguments. That normalizes their presence and gives them space in your community. You have to show them there are consequences to their beliefs, and you do that by cutting them off as friends, denying them a platform, and explaining to others exactly why their beliefs are offensive and why you're drawing those boundaries. You don't argue with them— you argue with your ten mutual friends who might still give a damn.
Now, you don't have to do that! I don't bother with many people. It's hard and you're also vulnerable since you're gnc/maybe-trans. You're also attached to this person in ways that none of us understand.
But that's how I appraise the moral stakes. You're not doing me, a trans femme, any favors by endlessly debating your TWERF friends. ♥
posted by yaymukund at 6:50 AM on March 3, 2017
Response by poster: Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone! It's made me feel somewhat better.
A couple of further details:
1. The thing about my friend is that we've been friends for more than half my life and I really do owe her a great deal, which has modulated a lot of this. I've felt bad about the way things have been going for the past few years, but I've looked back on the good times, the times when she really fixed things up for me when bad stuff happened, the times when I was a friend to her when her life was also crappy, the experiences I would not have had if it wasn't for her, the many car rides when I had no car, etc. In a lot of ways, she's really cheered me on in terms of jobs, relationships, etc.
2. She had a lousy childhood in a deprived and far-right area of the country, and I know for a fact that she's consciously worked hard to overcome toxic personal and political experiences from her youth. This is one reason why I've tried to be satisfied with how things are - I know that most people don't change much and I really respect that she _has_ changed, even if she hasn't changed to the point that I would like. She has worked harder on her beliefs than someone who grew up in better circumstances.
That's one of the reasons I have tried to get past some of this, because I know that everyone's beliefs are a work in progress, and I am sure that someone could legit write a question about how my beliefs and practices have not-great aspects.
3. I do have trans women friends and femme non-binary friends - I mean, I'd say that actually a slight majority of my friends are trans women or femme gender non-conforming people and that was what really pushed me to come out to her in the first place - I've been really stuck because it's not realistic for me to transition right now in terms of money/job/etc, so I'd just been keeping much of this to myself, and I made myself do it because I felt like I was betraying them.
4. My friend isn't, like, a jerk to trans people she knows socially, and she has helped out individual trans people in our general community when people have hard times. If I hadn't had these conversations with her, I would not know about her beliefs. On the one hand "not being a jerk" is a low bar, but on the other, it also demonstrates something - it's not as though there's any shortage of activist people who are terrible to trans people.
5. I think another problem is that we're both from slightly "after the revolution" political traditions - a form of socialism for her and a form of anarchism for me. So it's not absolutely out of our intellectual backgrounds to say that "after" oppressive circumstances are removed, how we understand ourselves and how we interact will be, like, totally different. Or to say that the deep structures of capitalism and patriarchy do permeate and corrupt all social relations. This has made me more reluctant to criticize the whole "after the revolution there will be no trans people" thing, because I truly don't know what society would be like "after the revolution", and because letting go of that line of reasoning has felt like letting go of "the revolution" itself, getting old, selling out to the man, etc. Even though fundamentally I don't think that "the revolution" makes sense with anything we've seen in human history and therefore seems very unlikely in any "and society will emerge in a totally new form in which the social relations of the present are scoured away" sense.
The upshot: I think I might write her an actual paper letter. Maybe I'll chicken out, I don't know. I don't know if we can recover our old friendship, but I think there's some possibility, now that I've thought all this through, that the dynamic is driving more than it seems like - if we can actually not get into the argue-anxiety-silence cycle, maybe we could sort some of this out in a better way. I think it's possible that I am reading some of our interactions as "I totally disapprove of you Frowner" when they are really "this is very awkward because we've argued so much", and that some of the comments that are hurtful to me are in a context of awkwardness and silence that makes them seem worse than they are, like when you accidentally say something the worst way possible because you're anxious.
I mean, it's possible that we'll communicate and it will all be terrible and that will have to be the end, of course.
I am also a really conflict-avoidant person. Because of this, sometimes I get the impression that things are worse than they are. It is difficult for me to argue unless I'm really angry and pushed into a corner. As a result, I feel like sometimes I end up making things worse than they are because they're so high-stakes to me by the time I say anything.
It's one of those things where it's so clear-cut when it's happening to other people, and then when it happens to you, all the weight and complexity of your social world messes things up.
posted by Frowner at 7:47 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
A couple of further details:
1. The thing about my friend is that we've been friends for more than half my life and I really do owe her a great deal, which has modulated a lot of this. I've felt bad about the way things have been going for the past few years, but I've looked back on the good times, the times when she really fixed things up for me when bad stuff happened, the times when I was a friend to her when her life was also crappy, the experiences I would not have had if it wasn't for her, the many car rides when I had no car, etc. In a lot of ways, she's really cheered me on in terms of jobs, relationships, etc.
2. She had a lousy childhood in a deprived and far-right area of the country, and I know for a fact that she's consciously worked hard to overcome toxic personal and political experiences from her youth. This is one reason why I've tried to be satisfied with how things are - I know that most people don't change much and I really respect that she _has_ changed, even if she hasn't changed to the point that I would like. She has worked harder on her beliefs than someone who grew up in better circumstances.
That's one of the reasons I have tried to get past some of this, because I know that everyone's beliefs are a work in progress, and I am sure that someone could legit write a question about how my beliefs and practices have not-great aspects.
3. I do have trans women friends and femme non-binary friends - I mean, I'd say that actually a slight majority of my friends are trans women or femme gender non-conforming people and that was what really pushed me to come out to her in the first place - I've been really stuck because it's not realistic for me to transition right now in terms of money/job/etc, so I'd just been keeping much of this to myself, and I made myself do it because I felt like I was betraying them.
4. My friend isn't, like, a jerk to trans people she knows socially, and she has helped out individual trans people in our general community when people have hard times. If I hadn't had these conversations with her, I would not know about her beliefs. On the one hand "not being a jerk" is a low bar, but on the other, it also demonstrates something - it's not as though there's any shortage of activist people who are terrible to trans people.
5. I think another problem is that we're both from slightly "after the revolution" political traditions - a form of socialism for her and a form of anarchism for me. So it's not absolutely out of our intellectual backgrounds to say that "after" oppressive circumstances are removed, how we understand ourselves and how we interact will be, like, totally different. Or to say that the deep structures of capitalism and patriarchy do permeate and corrupt all social relations. This has made me more reluctant to criticize the whole "after the revolution there will be no trans people" thing, because I truly don't know what society would be like "after the revolution", and because letting go of that line of reasoning has felt like letting go of "the revolution" itself, getting old, selling out to the man, etc. Even though fundamentally I don't think that "the revolution" makes sense with anything we've seen in human history and therefore seems very unlikely in any "and society will emerge in a totally new form in which the social relations of the present are scoured away" sense.
The upshot: I think I might write her an actual paper letter. Maybe I'll chicken out, I don't know. I don't know if we can recover our old friendship, but I think there's some possibility, now that I've thought all this through, that the dynamic is driving more than it seems like - if we can actually not get into the argue-anxiety-silence cycle, maybe we could sort some of this out in a better way. I think it's possible that I am reading some of our interactions as "I totally disapprove of you Frowner" when they are really "this is very awkward because we've argued so much", and that some of the comments that are hurtful to me are in a context of awkwardness and silence that makes them seem worse than they are, like when you accidentally say something the worst way possible because you're anxious.
I mean, it's possible that we'll communicate and it will all be terrible and that will have to be the end, of course.
I am also a really conflict-avoidant person. Because of this, sometimes I get the impression that things are worse than they are. It is difficult for me to argue unless I'm really angry and pushed into a corner. As a result, I feel like sometimes I end up making things worse than they are because they're so high-stakes to me by the time I say anything.
It's one of those things where it's so clear-cut when it's happening to other people, and then when it happens to you, all the weight and complexity of your social world messes things up.
posted by Frowner at 7:47 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I know that most people don't change much and I really respect that she _has_ changed, even if she hasn't changed to the point that I would like.
That's great. I'm optimistic that she will continue to improve. But that doesn't mean you need to stick around for the hurtful comments during that process.
posted by grouse at 7:53 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's great. I'm optimistic that she will continue to improve. But that doesn't mean you need to stick around for the hurtful comments during that process.
posted by grouse at 7:53 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Imagine someone posted a question with points #1 and #2 about a romantic partner and then went on to say that person was dismissive of their core identity and disrespectful to them. That they were afraid to talk to their partner about their deepest feelings. Then they made excuses for their partner that they couldn't control themselves because of how they grew up, and they're "really not that bad" (but they spent hundreds of words explaining how they are disrespectful). "hey, he might have deeply held racist beliefs but at least my ex doesn't use the n word anymore!"
how would you answer that question?
also if I was a trans woman/femme nb friend of yours I would give you some serious fucking side eye for hanging out with what's essentially a terf. I defriend people on FB when they don't challenge friends who post sexist/racist/transphobic etc stuff. Sounds like your friend is at least smart enough not to speak her thoughts in public, like my coworker who knows to whisper her racist thoughts.
I see what you are trying to do and I acknowledge it's complicated and hard when you've known someone for a long time. I'm actually in a similar situation except I'm not 100% certain what my friend's beliefs are. It's hard to give up on someone. But in your case this has been going on for years. How much more time are you willing to shut off part of yourself for someone who does not really care about you? Friends should be unconditionally there for you unless you ask them to hide bodies or something. Your gender identity, including the way you dress (?!?!?!?!??!?!?!) does not affect her one single bit.
posted by AFABulous at 9:58 AM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
how would you answer that question?
also if I was a trans woman/femme nb friend of yours I would give you some serious fucking side eye for hanging out with what's essentially a terf. I defriend people on FB when they don't challenge friends who post sexist/racist/transphobic etc stuff. Sounds like your friend is at least smart enough not to speak her thoughts in public, like my coworker who knows to whisper her racist thoughts.
I see what you are trying to do and I acknowledge it's complicated and hard when you've known someone for a long time. I'm actually in a similar situation except I'm not 100% certain what my friend's beliefs are. It's hard to give up on someone. But in your case this has been going on for years. How much more time are you willing to shut off part of yourself for someone who does not really care about you? Friends should be unconditionally there for you unless you ask them to hide bodies or something. Your gender identity, including the way you dress (?!?!?!?!??!?!?!) does not affect her one single bit.
posted by AFABulous at 9:58 AM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
frowner i love you but i think you're tying yourself into weird knots about this. i hella wrote a bunch of tough love paragraphs which i deleted because i don't think that's the messaging you need to hear right now
so heres some stuff:
Your friend's circumstances and personal growth are realities and it's right to deeply accept this. But: And: Even so, you can respect someone, and acknowledge the work they have done to improve, and also you can say: This is not good for me to be around. like, her notions being stressful to you is not a referendum on her being a bad person or incapable of change, and you don't need to stick around until she's "better" or w/e
That's one of the reasons I have tried to get past some of this, because I know that everyone's beliefs are a work in progress, and I am sure that someone could legit write a question about how my beliefs and practices have not-great aspects.
This flipped a red flag to me. This seems like you are uncomfortable on a deeper level and trying to look for reasons that your own discomfort is not legitimate for moral reasons. Having read hella posts by you over these years on bad website metafilter this is not how you come off, and maybe you're a dick in IRL but I really doubt it, i bet you are a nice person who is kind of a doormat and bro you don't need to be kind of a doormat about this
3. Yeah you're betraying your friends a little
4. Not being a jerk is a low bar
5. Holy crap that was a whole paragraph trying to explain away discomfort
It's one of those things where it's so clear-cut when it's happening to other people, and then when it happens to you, all the weight and complexity of your social world messes things up.
Consider this an opportunity to a) talk the walk b) care for yourself as you would care for those who you look after.
Cuz I know you're ride or die for your friends, I've seen you post a bunch of stuff about how hard you go for your people, how much you help out your people even if it's discomfort or distress to you, and dude you have to be kind to you like you are kind to your own people here. seriously tap in a damn cis ally to collect this friend of yours and take a warm bath or something, this situation is stressful and miserable and you don't have to fix this woman's shitty ideas
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:55 AM on March 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
so heres some stuff:
Your friend's circumstances and personal growth are realities and it's right to deeply accept this. But: And: Even so, you can respect someone, and acknowledge the work they have done to improve, and also you can say: This is not good for me to be around. like, her notions being stressful to you is not a referendum on her being a bad person or incapable of change, and you don't need to stick around until she's "better" or w/e
That's one of the reasons I have tried to get past some of this, because I know that everyone's beliefs are a work in progress, and I am sure that someone could legit write a question about how my beliefs and practices have not-great aspects.
This flipped a red flag to me. This seems like you are uncomfortable on a deeper level and trying to look for reasons that your own discomfort is not legitimate for moral reasons. Having read hella posts by you over these years on bad website metafilter this is not how you come off, and maybe you're a dick in IRL but I really doubt it, i bet you are a nice person who is kind of a doormat and bro you don't need to be kind of a doormat about this
3. Yeah you're betraying your friends a little
4. Not being a jerk is a low bar
5. Holy crap that was a whole paragraph trying to explain away discomfort
It's one of those things where it's so clear-cut when it's happening to other people, and then when it happens to you, all the weight and complexity of your social world messes things up.
Consider this an opportunity to a) talk the walk b) care for yourself as you would care for those who you look after.
Cuz I know you're ride or die for your friends, I've seen you post a bunch of stuff about how hard you go for your people, how much you help out your people even if it's discomfort or distress to you, and dude you have to be kind to you like you are kind to your own people here. seriously tap in a damn cis ally to collect this friend of yours and take a warm bath or something, this situation is stressful and miserable and you don't have to fix this woman's shitty ideas
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:55 AM on March 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Okay, one more update since I think I've made up my mind:I think I'm not going to contact her. I think that I've been kicking the can down the road on this because I hope that the answer will be different from what I know it will be, but going over stuff in my mind, I think that we are too far apart on this stuff and I can't do this to my other friends.
I am pretty sure that unless I apologize for blowing up at her the other day, she will never, ever contact me again, so this is probably the best way to do it - it's a natural breaking point that doesn't strain my courage too much.
As I came home, I was thinking about this and it occurred to me that the kind of arguments that we have are always structured around "I think that even if most spaces are for cis and trans women, cis women should have cis-women only spaces that reflect their unique experiences and traumas"...."Well, I think that doesn't make sense because there are no universal cis experiences except not being trans, let me tell you more."....
And I think I've been conceptualizing this really wrong. The purpose of this discourse (even if it's not the individual purpose of everyone who says this stuff) is to create a rhetorical system where trans women are a problem. The purpose is not "let's describe trans and cis experiences for some analytical reason, possibly discovering some differences and some commonalities", it's "let's create power through discourse that we can use to marginalize trans women". That is why these conversations feel so bad - they're not actually about understanding trans and cis experiences, they're about marking trans women as a problem. That is why I can't ever win the argument, because the point of the argument is not to prove anything about trans women's lives in the first place.
The point of all these conversations is to mark trans people, especially trans women, as problematic outsiders for reasons that do not stand up to scrutiny. The purpose of the conversation is not what's happening at the discursive level but what's happening at the systemic level.
[Deleted historical thing that I wrote wrong. Basically "there is lots of historical precedent for not discriminating against trans women so arguments that don't take that into account are wrong".]
I think that ever since the last go-round about how we need to replace all the locker rooms and bathrooms for privacy, I've known that this can't go on. The underpinning of that whole argument is that we are just going to ...make space for people who don't want to risk any encounter with trans bodies. Everyone will have cubicles! Separate but equal! (I'm not against private spaces in bathrooms or locker rooms; I'm against this as a solution to conflict between trans and (some) cis women.) That's what she thinks. There's no way around it and I really can't be having with it.
So there we are.
posted by Frowner at 2:46 PM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
I am pretty sure that unless I apologize for blowing up at her the other day, she will never, ever contact me again, so this is probably the best way to do it - it's a natural breaking point that doesn't strain my courage too much.
As I came home, I was thinking about this and it occurred to me that the kind of arguments that we have are always structured around "I think that even if most spaces are for cis and trans women, cis women should have cis-women only spaces that reflect their unique experiences and traumas"...."Well, I think that doesn't make sense because there are no universal cis experiences except not being trans, let me tell you more."....
And I think I've been conceptualizing this really wrong. The purpose of this discourse (even if it's not the individual purpose of everyone who says this stuff) is to create a rhetorical system where trans women are a problem. The purpose is not "let's describe trans and cis experiences for some analytical reason, possibly discovering some differences and some commonalities", it's "let's create power through discourse that we can use to marginalize trans women". That is why these conversations feel so bad - they're not actually about understanding trans and cis experiences, they're about marking trans women as a problem. That is why I can't ever win the argument, because the point of the argument is not to prove anything about trans women's lives in the first place.
The point of all these conversations is to mark trans people, especially trans women, as problematic outsiders for reasons that do not stand up to scrutiny. The purpose of the conversation is not what's happening at the discursive level but what's happening at the systemic level.
[Deleted historical thing that I wrote wrong. Basically "there is lots of historical precedent for not discriminating against trans women so arguments that don't take that into account are wrong".]
I think that ever since the last go-round about how we need to replace all the locker rooms and bathrooms for privacy, I've known that this can't go on. The underpinning of that whole argument is that we are just going to ...make space for people who don't want to risk any encounter with trans bodies. Everyone will have cubicles! Separate but equal! (I'm not against private spaces in bathrooms or locker rooms; I'm against this as a solution to conflict between trans and (some) cis women.) That's what she thinks. There's no way around it and I really can't be having with it.
So there we are.
posted by Frowner at 2:46 PM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
Frowner - I was just gonna say, as gently as possible, and with nowhere near the elegance and thought-through-ness of a comment you would make, why do you want to hang out with someone who's not kind to you?
So I'm glad to hear you are treating yourself with the care you show others.
posted by mgrrl at 3:15 PM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
So I'm glad to hear you are treating yourself with the care you show others.
posted by mgrrl at 3:15 PM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
The point of all these conversations is to mark trans people, especially trans women, as problematic outsiders for reasons that do not stand up to scrutiny. The purpose of the conversation is not what's happening at the discursive level but what's happening at the systemic level.
precisement
i think this can be harder for we afab to get to because the sharp end of this discourse tends not to be pointed at us. and that's part of the sliminess of that discourse! it relies on seeming normal-ish!
super proud of you for the thinking and struggling, struggling with friends is never easy, i hope your heart is light knowing you have done well
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 3:22 PM on March 3, 2017
precisement
i think this can be harder for we afab to get to because the sharp end of this discourse tends not to be pointed at us. and that's part of the sliminess of that discourse! it relies on seeming normal-ish!
super proud of you for the thinking and struggling, struggling with friends is never easy, i hope your heart is light knowing you have done well
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 3:22 PM on March 3, 2017
I'm glad you've gotten to a solution that feels good for you. You might also check out
When Anger Scares You: How to Overcome Your Fear of Conflict and Express Your Anger in Healthy Ways by John Lynch. I was really good at "activist anger" but not so good at interpersonal conflict; that book really helped me accept my own anger as a positive force and see (constructive) conflict as normal (even if I still don't really like it!), which has been helping me a great deal in my relationships and professional life.
posted by lazuli at 8:46 AM on March 4, 2017
When Anger Scares You: How to Overcome Your Fear of Conflict and Express Your Anger in Healthy Ways by John Lynch. I was really good at "activist anger" but not so good at interpersonal conflict; that book really helped me accept my own anger as a positive force and see (constructive) conflict as normal (even if I still don't really like it!), which has been helping me a great deal in my relationships and professional life.
posted by lazuli at 8:46 AM on March 4, 2017
(I should also have said: I'm not recommending that book because I think you should continue arguing with this person! It just might help you navigate future situations that feel icky.)
posted by lazuli at 8:47 AM on March 4, 2017
posted by lazuli at 8:47 AM on March 4, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
Life is too short to be in friendships with toxic people.
posted by hijinx at 8:50 AM on March 2, 2017 [12 favorites]