10 decades in the cult of Mac, how do we leave
January 19, 2017 10:18 AM   Subscribe

After 10 years almost exclusively using Apple products we are thinking about moving back to a PC environment but are weighing up how to and if it is worth the drama.

Currently we use:
A 10 year old 24" iMac (hard drive already replaced once, optical drive doesn't work)
A 9 year old MacBook Pro that we use exclusively to run downloaded video files through our television (battery doesn't work, optical drive doesn't work)
A 7 year old MacBook for general browsing and some word processing (intermittently shuts down)
2 iPhone 4S
A 5 year old iPad
All of these 'have their moments' and frankly I think will all die/need replacing over the next 1-3 years.

The other main tech we use are kindles. We think that if we did this we would probably just completely switch over - computers and phones in one go. Our thought is that for our needs we would probably get two laptops and replacement phones, and some kind of device to relay files from a hard drive to the wide-screen TV we own (we live in Turkey so roku stick is not really an option and trying to run stuff through the Internet on our LG smart TV has proven to be ridiculously difficult). And I do love my iPad so maybe a tablet device if I found something as good.

We previously were seriously in to photography, and found the iMac to be good for that (and have the Adobe Creative suite) but now just want something that we can do a bit of photo editing, surf the Internet and organise all our multiple files. And to run movies and TV.

Our son desperately wants us to move to a PC environment for gaming - both for games available only on PC and the fact we can upgrade graphics cards (there are a lot of games he can't currently play because our graphics card is not good enough on the iMac). The other things the computer gets used for is homeschool, general internet browsing and a bit or word/excel/PDF stuff.

So - other than the hassle of transferring files from an OSX to PC environment, and the sunk cost on the ridiculous number of IOS apps we have bought, what else do I need to consider before I defect from the cult of Mac?
posted by Megami to Computers & Internet (29 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
Just gonna throw out there than console gaming is cheaper in the long run.

Also I see far more macs alive and well at age 10+ than PCs.

It used to be that windows was far more annoying than OS X, but imo OS X has upped their game in bullshit so it's a closer call now.

For me, basically comes down to if you want to buy more expensive stuff less often, or less expensive stuff more often.

Unless you've been using a bunch of windows stuff regularly, don't underestimate the burden of learning how to do a million little things in amazingly different ways.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:44 AM on January 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


Just a note. If you've never used a PC environment - or haven't in years - you might want to hit a library or borrow a system, and just fool around with a non-Mac computer. As a lifelong Mac user, whenever I'm forced to use a PC, I feel like all the fun and liveliness is sucked out of the experience. It's like operating a kiosk in a shopping mall; rigid, impersonal, annoying.

Your mileage may vary, of course, but I'd hate to see you make this move and then realize that you just don't like the OS environment (your kid will notice it less, cuz gamers don't deal with the OS that much).
posted by Quisp Lover at 10:47 AM on January 19, 2017 [10 favorites]


The only reason you stated for wanting to switch over is that someone wants a PC for gaming. Unless there's some other reasons you're fed up with Apple, or in love with Windows, I'd suggest just getting a single gaming PC, and only getting more non-apple devices when any given piece of hardware needs replacing. There's not much reason to do the whole switch all at once - particularly with phones.
posted by aubilenon at 11:00 AM on January 19, 2017 [23 favorites]


I can't help with anything on a technical side, but if you find the change over difficult from a things feeling & acting differently there are a heap of things you can download to make a PC feel just like a Mac everything from docking systems, widgets, chats software, icon packages & skins & in less than a minute move the taskbar (the thing that seems to annoy my Mac using friends when they get on my PC the most for some reason). There is a lot less difference now a days though than people like to make out.
posted by wwax at 11:00 AM on January 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


FWIW the transition from Mac to previous versions of Windows has been pretty gnarly but Win10 is actually... nice? It won't feel totally unfamilar anyway.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:00 AM on January 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


Personally I'd suggest buying a mid-range PC with a good graphics card and a new Macbook of some type and call it a day. PCs are cheap these days and you can get a decent one for not much money. Macbooks do last a long time, but 9 or 10 years is a really long time. Probably time for a new one.

I have both a Mac and a Win 10 PC these days and I mostly prefer OS X but honestly Win 10 is fine. It's better than it used to be.

Maybe moving to console gaming would be better than a Windows box that's effectively an overpriced game console (a console is $250-ish, a PC is probably $500 to $1000 depending on what you get) but again, as a personal opinion, I prefer the PC, it can still do computer stuff and I'm going to guess your kid wants to play Overwatch so a console is out anyway.

To paraphrase Obama, if you like your ios devices, you can keep you ios devices. iTunes is equally crappy on Windows and OS X these days and I only ever connect to back up my old iPad ever couple months. I don't think it's really necessary to connect an iOS device to a computer any more so it's a moot point. I wouldn't let your choice of desktop system really influence what kind of tablet or phone you buy.

What model is your iPad? If it's 30-pin iPad, get a new one. Otherwise it's probably still fine if it's not physically broken. Get new phones whenever you feel like it and/or can afford it.
posted by GuyZero at 11:01 AM on January 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


I had to switch to PC in September 2015 when my 8 year old MacBook Pro finally stopped working well enough to use for schoolwork, and I regret it every single time I have to use the new laptop. Granted, I spent a fraction of the cost a new MBP would have been, and I knew going into the purchase that it wasn't going to be the same. But holy shit, it's just the worst. Even allowing for the suckiness of using a cheaper laptop, the PC experience blows tremendously after years of being on OSX. (I do have to use Windows for work, and always have, but since most of my workday is spent using products in the MS Office suite, it's not as bothersome.) I'd definitely recommend logging some time in a current Windows environment before committing to making the complete switch.
posted by palomar at 11:02 AM on January 19, 2017 [4 favorites]


Eh, I wouldn't leap over whole hog. I do agree that Macs are coasting a bit more on their reputation than they used to - the MacBook Air I'm typing this on is not going to make it to ten years. But it's still lasted me longer than any of my previous PCs; I was on the 2-3 year replacement cycle for those, and I'll make it to 5 years with my MBA.

Get a gaming PC or console for your son [what games does he want to play? what platforms are they on? Nthing everyone else; if the answer for him still ends up being PC, see if you like using it before switching anything else over].

As for the phones, do you have a compelling reason to switch to Android rather than getting new iPhones? I'm not seeing one in your original question.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 11:05 AM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


Nthing everyone else - I would just get a decent gaming PC and keep the rest of your devices for now, and decide what to replace each with as and when you need to replace them. That solves the immediate need and gives you a chance to see if you love or loathe Windows before going the whole hog.

If you like iOS for mobile devices and you've sunk money into apps, just stick with iOS, even if you end up otherwise switching to Windows. They work fine.
posted by sailoreagle at 11:11 AM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


N'thing just pick for each device what gives you the most of what you want -- we do Apple products for phones/tablet and PC for all of our computers (both my husband and I have jobs that use PC-only or PC-optimized software and want to be able to work from home sometimes). We've never had problems with our phones not playing nice with our laptops or whatever.
posted by rainbowbrite at 11:20 AM on January 19, 2017


Yeah, I've used iOS devices since the original iPhone with a mix of both Windows and Mac computers and there is little to no difference.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:22 AM on January 19, 2017


I already moved to PC a long time ago as I got priced out of Apple computers in college. I've stuck with PC because I still can't fathom paying so high a premium for an experience that I don't find that much more appealing. I also have had Android phones for years as I'm able to customize them in a way that I can't with iPhone's rigidity and walled garden aspects (not to mention I'm able to buy a superior phone for significantly less money). I continue to buy PCs and Android devices and am happy with them.

The one area that I buy Apple products for is tablet. I love my iPad mini and I haven't felt the pull to switch to another platform. I'm able to manage my iPad just fine without having other Apple products. I used to be an iPod person as well, but as soon as my 160GB iPod Classic finally dies, I'm switching as Apple refuses to make a high-capacity, music-only device now.
posted by quince at 11:23 AM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


So I've switched back and forth between Windows and Mac a bunch of times. Currently I have a PC at work and a Macbook at home; at one point in the past it was the reverse; I grew up with a PC, had a Macbook in college, and then went back to a PC when the Macbook died and I couldn't afford a new one.

I do find that OS X has somewhat less bullshit than Windows, even now. And Macbooks obviously last longer, but total cost of ownership is about a wash when you consider how much more expensive they are. I'd say Macs are probably a little easier to deal with on the whole, but the difference is pretty small.

All of which is to say that, in my opinion, you are overthinking this. There's no particular reason why you'd need to switch all of your devices at the same time - plenty of people use a mix of Apple products and PCs. Probably most of the people I know who own iPhones use PCs, in fact. While the user interface is different from OS X to Windows, it's not that radically different that someone with a reasonable degree of computer literacy should have much trouble adjusting - things are in different places and sometimes have different names, but the fundamental concepts are really quite similar. Unless you are some sort of power user, or someone who is just really unfamiliar with how devices work, you probably won't even notice the difference after a couple of weeks.

If you want to get PCs (or one PC and one Mac), get PCs. Really, it will be fine, and you can always go back when your PC dies if you don't like it.

One more tip: if you have documents and spreadsheets you are afraid of losing, you can download OpenOffice for Mac and use that to create .doc/.xls/.whatever versions of the files. After that, you can simply upload the files to your new PC and they'll work straight away.
posted by breakin' the law at 11:24 AM on January 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


Yeah, if you're not specifically unhappy with the iphones and ipads, there's not much reason to switch just because you're moving to windows. The last I checked, which was at least five years ago, itunes for windows was still a real shitshow so you'd want to export music into something else, but that's about the only consideration. Otherwise, your desktop/laptop and mobile/tablet choices really don't have much to do with each other.

Our thought is that for our needs we would probably get two laptops

This really doesn't make much sense for your use case. Gaming laptops are expensive, big, and un-upgradeable except for memory and storage.

In your shoes, I would recommend a decent laptop (whether osx or windows) and building a "desktop" that you just hook to the tv. It can then game -- though you'd want a lapdesk thing for keyboard/mouse games -- and you can throw kodi on it for movies.

You could just buy a desktop, but you'd have to worry enough about the specs on the individual parts like the power supply and the video card that honestly it's just easier to build one, and pc makers tend to ream you on upgrades. Also then you can put a little money on stuff that makes living with it easier, like a hushed case and a big, quiet cpu cooler.

Just gonna throw out there than console gaming is cheaper in the long run.

In the short or medium run, definitely. In the long run, I dunno. Game prices for consoles never hit anything close to the deals you get through humblebundle or steam sales.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:27 AM on January 19, 2017


I just switched from Mac to PC and it's basically the same. I did have to install one update. But Windows 10 guides you through everything, it's really different from back when everyone had to learn how to do things in Command Prompt (and get in there on a weekly basis). The feel is pretty Maccy, really.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:30 AM on January 19, 2017


Thanks everyone for the answers so far - this is really helpful.
Just gonna throw out there than console gaming is cheaper in the long run.
Despite the fact we currently have a ridiculously big screen television we travel a lot. And also in the long run (as in very long run) we are moving towards having the kind of set up where we can travel for six months with little disruption. And our kid is currently getting his console fix with a second hand Wii that is old but does okay. The type of thing he wishes we had the graphics card for is a lot of Steam stuff e.g. Total War Samurai, and being able to take advantage of a lot of the Humble Bundle stuff ( for example the recent Assassins Creed offer). Games should not be the be all and end all but hey, if we have to get a new computer (and it looks like we will in the next year or two) and we have the choice of a new iMac or something that we can actually run the games he wants on, and open up to update graphics cards or whatever (which is not worth the trouble with Macs) we might as well go down that route.

If you've never used a PC environment - or haven't in years - you might want to hit a library or borrow a system,
Good point but my husband uses PC systems every day for work and I use them occasionally and don't find the differences insurmountable.

The only reason you stated for wanting to switch over is that someone wants a PC for gaming.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. One reason is cost - for example due to various factors we can't get phones on contract. And a Samsung Galaxy, even the top-level model available in Turkey today, is cheaper than a basic iPhone. Ditto with laptops - other than a super top-notch gaming machine (which is not happening in our household ...) you can get a very good windows/linus laptop cheaper than a base model macbook these days. And I have read and heard from friends that the camera on the Samsung is actually better than the iPhone for the cost (and one bit of anecdata is a friend knows from experience that Samsungs survive if the end up in a waterfall and you find them way downriver ...) That said, we are in the enviable position that if investing in Apple makes more sense financially over the long run we can make it happen. Also I am really disappointed with how Apple seems to have neglected the development of desktops and to a certain extent laptops in pursuit of the iOS devices and am not sure I am willing to keep paying a premium to stick within the 'cage of convenience' that is Apple. And of course there is the fact that it is really hard to open up an iMac and replace stuff when it goes wrong or is obsolete.

Personally I'd suggest buying a mid-range PC with a good graphics card and a new Macbook of some type and call it a day.
Definitely an option worth considering.
posted by Megami at 12:04 PM on January 19, 2017


You don't have to "switch". We use iPhones, iPads, AppleTV, Amazon Fire Stick, Windows 7/10 and Linux laptops/desktops at home. My work computer is a Macbook. You don't have to do either/or.

We like iPhones and iPads but for actual computers at home we lean Windows and Linux.

Look up one of the gaming builds on PCPartPicker and run with it.
posted by LoveHam at 12:14 PM on January 19, 2017


I have to chime in here about one thing that keeps getting repeated above. I don't think PCs necessarily have a shorter lifespan than Macs. There are so many manufacturers of PCs that it only makes sense that some would be of lower quality. However, if you buy smart you will be fine.

Because of deals we've received through work, we bought Dells. Since 2003, we've had one last 12 years that we only retired when XP wasn't supported (with all components still working), another from 2009 that I am still using as my main laptop with no degradation other than the battery, and another one from a few years ago that still works as new. I know not everyone will have this luck, but let's not generalize that Macs have longer longevity.
posted by Don_K at 12:14 PM on January 19, 2017 [2 favorites]


So on buying a gaming PC laptop - the latest generation mobile GPUs are not bad but it's not as cheap as a desktop of the same power and you lose upgradeability. But you get a laptop which is maybe what you want vs a desktop. I bought a Samsung 15" that has a Nvidia 940MX and I can report that the teeanger who uses it does fine on Overwatch and other Steam games. But that was ~ $1200 US and you can get a similar desktop for close to half that price.

Versus even the very top-end Mac laptops, Windows laptops are much better for gaming. You're looking at $2400-$2800 for a similar Macbook Pro (although those are, overall, better machines, just not necessarily for gaming)
posted by GuyZero at 12:14 PM on January 19, 2017


Chiming in with the "Don't buy a crappy PC and you'll have a great experience" chorus. If you buy a $200 Acer ultrabook, expect a bad experience. If you buy a $1200 Lenovo laptop, you'll do a LOT better. Also, I personally think Windows 10 is a far more intuitive and attractive user experience. (I say this as a person who designs user interfaces professionally, so I don't say it lightly, but of course there's a huge element of personal preference in user experience.)
posted by nosila at 1:42 PM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


Also: my husband and I have been buying professional line Lenovo laptops for many years. They always last about 5 years, and would probably last longer if we didn't require them to be extremely fast for our work.
posted by nosila at 1:43 PM on January 19, 2017


I skipped down to the end to tell you that last year, I completed my transition the other way, from all PCs to all Apple. I am still stuck with PCs at work, but whenever possible there I default to my private MacBook Pro, too.

It changed my life, and all for the better, to go all Apple. PCs are like living inside a bureaucracy with endless rules, updates to policies, intrusive site visits, fire alarms and other interruptions, and repeated demands that you fill out surveys. Whereas my feeling in my Apple world is that I get to do everything I want to do, and my computer just wants to make it easy and fun and beautiful.

You will loathe it if you leave Apple for PC. Windows has actually gotten EVEN WORSE with every iteration. Even sending an email on Outlook is an utter pain. All the software is kludgy and slow, frankly, that I use in Office. I hate IE with a burning passion. I could go on, but you get the idea.

I'd find another gaming solution for your kid and just update some of your devices.

Sent from my MacBook Pro. *caresses it lovingly*
posted by bearwife at 2:12 PM on January 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


@bearwife. That’s kind of weird, because from my POV I spent years working on a Mac & OSX got progressively worse and worse over time (iTunes was always a UI shitshow of course) whilst Windows got incrementally better. Each to their own experience of course.

Just gonna throw out there than console gaming is cheaper in the long run.

Is this really true? If you buy equivalent hardware you probably come out ahead on the cost front given access to extremely cheap Steam sales & the like. If you insist on always buying AAA games on release & having top of the line hardware then yes, it’s going to be more expensive but it’s also going to have better visuals...me, I’m a terrible cheap person who regards spending money as some kind of venial sin, so PC gaming has always been wildly cheaper than console.

OP: pretty much all your hardware is end of life & probably in some cases stuck with versions of OSX that are no longer getting hardware support. I would (assuming I could afford it):

1) Find a TV box that will run Plex. A Roku 2 or 3 is one option, but there are plenty of others. If it runs Netflix then that’s a bonus. Replace the thing attached to the TV with that.
2) Stick with iOS devices. You already have a pile of Apps, your problem is that your phones are old at this point & probably also about (or have already) lost security support. Buy a newish pair of iPhones & maybe a new iPad.
3) Probably buy a MacBook. It’s decent hardware & it’ll run Windows if you want it to.
4) Buy a gaming PC. Not that expensive these days unless you want bleeding edge hardware.

None of these things are incompatible with each other. If you want to try a decent Windows laptop, then don’t cheap out - the good ones are very, very good (& in some cases the hardware is better than Apples’) but the cheap end can be pretty awful.
posted by pharm at 2:39 PM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


I can say as someone who has been primarily on Macs for about a decade now, but who has to occasionally run a Windows 10 VM, and who considers himself a "power user" (whatever that might mean) and I can say: As frustrating as macOS can sometimes be, OH my GOODNESS I cannot WAIT to be done using Windows when I need to use it for work, because pretty much everything is clunkier there. It's not even like macOS is perfect. More like, it's the least worst desktop OS I've used.

Admittedly, I'm a console gamer who pretty much just constitutionally can't get into computer games, so the Mac's inferiority as a gaming platform overall isn't a huge issue for me. ; )
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:54 PM on January 19, 2017


Joining the chorus of "you don't have to switch everything". Macs and PCs are pretty compatible with each other these days.

Pain points that I can think of:
- Managing an iPhone with Windows is awful, but you'd still have a Mac to do that with, presumably.
- Macs can't write to NTFS disks (without special software), so this might be a concern if you use external drives a lot. (FAT and exFAT are both fully compatible.)

Really though, you should be able to find a decent Windows gaming laptop for significantly less than an equivalent Macbook. I'm a gamer and while Mac gaming has gotten much more plausible in the last 5 years, the hardware is still pretty weak. (I actually consider this kind of a feature because my Macbook is my getting-shit-done computer.)

(I'm concerned about the future of Apple hardware myself, since the new Macbooks are pretty terrible, but the older models are nigh-perfect laptops. OSX has also gone a bit downhill, while Windows keeps getting better.)
posted by neckro23 at 2:55 PM on January 19, 2017


+1 that device lifespan has more to do with the user than PC vs. Mac. My current midrange Dell laptop is almost five years old and running just fine, even after updating from 7 to 10. My previous Dell was 10 years old when I got this one, and it still worked, I just needed more processing power. I had employer deals with Dell both times, there are other manufacturers that seem fine, too.

The updates do drive me a bit nuts sometimes, and I've had to do a bit of googling for self tech support, but PCs are so much cheaper that I deal with it.
posted by momus_window at 2:59 PM on January 19, 2017


A couple points, quickly:
* You're going to get drastically better performance out of newer laptops, period.
* Console gaming and PC gaming are not the same. The control systems (controller vs. keyboard and mouse) are completely different. If your son is a keyboard and mouse game player, he may not like gaming via a controller. If he wants a PC for gaming, he wants a PC for gaming.
* In spite of what people say, the difference between Windows and MacOS is largely what you're used to, as opposed to the inherent superiority of one versus the other. Honestly, to say otherwise is kind of absurd. The one real differentiation is that Windows is still more targeted by malware than MacOS.
* I see no reason to get rid of your iPhones. Don't buy Windows Phone. It was really good, but the app situation there is dire. Android devices don't get updated very often and probably aren't worth switching to unless you need a new phone and you need to save money or you need to configure your phone specifically to suit your needs.
* You can kind of replace an iPad with a Surface device or other Windows tablet, but again the app situation on iOS is much better, and really the iPad is a much better tablet. The Surface is a much better computer.

One last point - don't buy the cheapest laptop out. Your experience will be poor. Buy something midrange (above $500 USD). If you buy a Windows laptop, get a touch screen. Touch screens on laptops are extremely useful for scrolling and zooming, and once you've used one, you'll be annoyed when you don't have it.
posted by cnc at 3:09 PM on January 19, 2017 [5 favorites]


I am pro-PC and pro-Android (and anti-Mac) in all respects, but you can easily mix and match. I have a MacBook that my office gave me that I use for work and personal, a desktop PC that I use for work and personal, and an Android phone. (I once had both an iPhone for work and an Android for personal, but thankfully that's no longer the case.)

Having both a Mac and PC isn't a big deal at all. I don't use Mac-only programs like Pages, I just use Microsoft Word on both. I use Photoshop on both as well. I use Google Calendar, not iCalendar, on both. And so on. I sync all my files across both computers using Dropbox and I can do work across both computers perfectly fine. So, you could just get one gaming PC that would communicate fine with the other Macs in the house.

That said, your computers do sound like pieces of crap if you want to upgrade all your technology. If you want laptops, that's one thing. But if you have any computer savvy or are willing to watch a 10-minute YouTube video, I'd suggest getting a desktop PC because you can easily swap components in and out as needed. I just upgraded my hard drive because it was getting full. In the past, I upgraded my video card so I could play games with better graphics. You just open up the computer case, pull a piece of hardware out and slot another one in. It's slightly more involved than that, but that is the basics.

Also, if you don't want a contract phone, or just more affordable phone service, I 100% agree you need to move away from iPhone. I pay $30 per month for unlimited talk, text and data. My Android phone cost about $150 (on sale) and I'm generally quite happy with it 13 months into owning it. I love the freedom of no contract for my phone or service, plus the low cost. (I once had Verizon and the service was horrible, but they couldn't fix it even after making me wipe my phone and send it back to them. I couldn't get out of my contract, and on top of it, it cost me so much more than no contract plans.)
posted by AppleTurnover at 8:41 PM on January 19, 2017


Thanks to the stagnation in CPU performance over the past 5 years, you can get a desktop suitable for anything short of VR gaming for $400-500 these days. I'd pair that with an Nvidia Shield TV for an STB. They are expensive for an STB, but by far the fastest of any STB currently made. Since it runs Android TV, it's easy to get VPN software up and running to give you access to geoblocked content, plus it works as a Plex server and runs Kodi very smoothly, which is (IMO) the best way to access local/network media. It also works as a Chromecast for content that is only accessible from phone apps or a browser.

Being so performant, it plays Android games very nicely. Plus, you have an Nvidia card in your PC, you can play PC games on the TV through it. It will also be getting a software update in the next couple of months that makes it double as a Steam Link, so will be even easier to get more games on the TV than you can now.

Another thing to look at is whether the games your kid wants to play are available on GeForce Now (Nvidia's cloud hosted gaming platform). If so, you don't even need to buy the gaming PC at all.

More to the question at hand, when it comes to buying a PC, as long as you choose a desktop that uses standard parts (Tigerdirect sells a lot of decent prebuilt machines) rather than one of the little tiny things that use weird power supplies and that sort of thing, you'll be fine with inexpensive. As long as you get something with a Core i5, at least 8GB of memory, and an SSD it's hard to go too wrong since you can upgrade/replace parts very easily.

Laptops, on the other hand, are a whole different kettle of fish. Do not cheap out on a PC laptop. There is a vast difference between cheap laptops and more expensive ones in terms of reliability, durability, and serviceability. Get a "business class" model like a Dell XPS or Thinkpad T or X series, not the stuff you find at a big box electronics retailer. You'll pay 70-80% of what you would for an Apple product, but you will be in the same ballpark in terms of build quality and reliability rather than finding yourself with a creaky keyboard, floppy screen, and general reliability problems that people malign PC laptops for having.
posted by wierdo at 8:47 AM on January 20, 2017


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