How to not be a nag
December 17, 2016 6:40 PM Subscribe
A family member needs to be told more than once, but then gets angry at me for 'nagging.' How can we get out of this dynamic?
I suspect that for both of us, the issue is not just the chore itself, whatever it might be (the current sticking point is a large box sitting in the middle of our living room which requires 10 minutes of his attention before it can be thrown away, and he keeps putting off giving it that attention). For me, the issue is that I feel when it's something he wants done, it happens right away so I don't understand why the things I want can't be as important---I know he does not enjoy chore stuff, but the fact that this matters to me should be enough. I also feel like it is not fair to blame me for 'nagging' him when clearly, he cannot be trusted to get stuff done without repeated prods.
What I can't figure out is what the deeper issue is for him. Why does this keep coming up for us? Why does he complain when he is asked more than once, but then not do the things? I don't want to fight over stupid things like that box, but it seems unfair that every time stuff like this comes up, my choices are to suck it up or do it myself. Why is there never an outcome that makes me happy and leaves him sucking it for once?
I suspect that for both of us, the issue is not just the chore itself, whatever it might be (the current sticking point is a large box sitting in the middle of our living room which requires 10 minutes of his attention before it can be thrown away, and he keeps putting off giving it that attention). For me, the issue is that I feel when it's something he wants done, it happens right away so I don't understand why the things I want can't be as important---I know he does not enjoy chore stuff, but the fact that this matters to me should be enough. I also feel like it is not fair to blame me for 'nagging' him when clearly, he cannot be trusted to get stuff done without repeated prods.
What I can't figure out is what the deeper issue is for him. Why does this keep coming up for us? Why does he complain when he is asked more than once, but then not do the things? I don't want to fight over stupid things like that box, but it seems unfair that every time stuff like this comes up, my choices are to suck it up or do it myself. Why is there never an outcome that makes me happy and leaves him sucking it for once?
I have no idea if it applies in your situation, especially something as simple sounding as this box thing, but one HUGE reason people don't help out, do their share around the house, or do what they're told is that as soon as they do, they get harshly scolded for doing it wrong. This can create a huge aversion to doing any chore that the person doesn't already have down pat.
Another possibility is if you would simply wait a couple hours before reminding him, he would do it. He could be at a different speed than you.
And of course, it's how and when you ask.
posted by serena15221 at 6:59 PM on December 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Another possibility is if you would simply wait a couple hours before reminding him, he would do it. He could be at a different speed than you.
And of course, it's how and when you ask.
posted by serena15221 at 6:59 PM on December 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Whenever I ask something of anyone it comes with a deadline and a consequence. In this case, "hey, can you look through this box of stuff by Friday? If not, I'm going to bring it all to Goodwill when I do errands then."
It also gives them a chance to say things like "would Saturday work? Work is a mess until then."
posted by raccoon409 at 7:05 PM on December 17, 2016 [53 favorites]
It also gives them a chance to say things like "would Saturday work? Work is a mess until then."
posted by raccoon409 at 7:05 PM on December 17, 2016 [53 favorites]
It seems unfair because it is unfair. He is not doing his part in this exchange. It's all on you. He's asking you to stuff your feelings. He wants you to not care about the box. The fact that it matters to you should be more than enough.
Someone in the emotional labor thread also has a box in a room in their house that needed to be dealt with in some way by the husband and he just wouldn't do it. The box ended up getting its own Twitter feed. I might suggest reading or skimming that thread.
I would also like to gently suggest that wanting your husband to "suck it for once" sounds like a strange end goal. But if you feel like you're always the one who goes unheard, whose feelings done matter - I know that when I was in that position I was very angry. But this phrasing to me hints at a larger unhappiness, which might be something to consider.
posted by sockermom at 7:08 PM on December 17, 2016 [33 favorites]
Someone in the emotional labor thread also has a box in a room in their house that needed to be dealt with in some way by the husband and he just wouldn't do it. The box ended up getting its own Twitter feed. I might suggest reading or skimming that thread.
I would also like to gently suggest that wanting your husband to "suck it for once" sounds like a strange end goal. But if you feel like you're always the one who goes unheard, whose feelings done matter - I know that when I was in that position I was very angry. But this phrasing to me hints at a larger unhappiness, which might be something to consider.
posted by sockermom at 7:08 PM on December 17, 2016 [33 favorites]
Doesn't sound as if there's much support or validation going on here. Why do you want the box moved? Is the issue that you're not feeling heard? Is there a way you can use the classic (and admittedly hackneyed, but it has its uses) emotional communication construct “Sometimes when you ______, I feel that I am being _____”? That can be a more effective way of communicating your needs. The box may have become A Thing; maybe it's there as a touchstone or point of some inexplicable internal thought process to Family Member that can't be dealt with until some other issue is dealt with.
If I'm feeling distracted/cussed/focussed on something else, the world is full of people making strange noises with their mouths. The more these noises happen, the more I (sometimes! hopefully less often!) ignore them.
posted by scruss at 7:16 PM on December 17, 2016
If I'm feeling distracted/cussed/focussed on something else, the world is full of people making strange noises with their mouths. The more these noises happen, the more I (sometimes! hopefully less often!) ignore them.
posted by scruss at 7:16 PM on December 17, 2016
raccoon409 makes a similar point to what I would make: allow him to fail, in a way that has repercussions for him (hopefully not for you). When he says "why didn't you remind me?" you can just cock an eyebrow and walk away.
posted by adamrice at 7:18 PM on December 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 7:18 PM on December 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
A family member needs to be told more than once, but then gets angry at me for 'nagging.' How can we get out of this dynamic?
wait for him to turn 16, that usually does it. adolescence is a stormy time for us all.
seriously it is tragic that you carefully wrote "family member" and everybody just proceeded as if you'd written husband. I, too, assume you mean husband. also tragically, the solution is the same as it would have been if he were in fact your 14 year old son: don't tell him what he has to do, tell him what you are going to do, and then do it (e.g. "I am taking this box to the garbage in 15 minutes, so if you need to go through it and save some things out, do it now.") be consistent and he will learn to believe you when you only say it once.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:19 PM on December 17, 2016 [43 favorites]
wait for him to turn 16, that usually does it. adolescence is a stormy time for us all.
seriously it is tragic that you carefully wrote "family member" and everybody just proceeded as if you'd written husband. I, too, assume you mean husband. also tragically, the solution is the same as it would have been if he were in fact your 14 year old son: don't tell him what he has to do, tell him what you are going to do, and then do it (e.g. "I am taking this box to the garbage in 15 minutes, so if you need to go through it and save some things out, do it now.") be consistent and he will learn to believe you when you only say it once.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:19 PM on December 17, 2016 [43 favorites]
Based on previous questions, you have a 3 month old baby, right? That is probably not helping.
posted by selfmedicating at 7:21 PM on December 17, 2016
posted by selfmedicating at 7:21 PM on December 17, 2016
Sexism. "Nagging" is misogynese for "you are female and thus I don't like it when you say things that aren't sexy or fun".
I'm assuming we're talking about a long term serious probably live-in partner, right? I would not accept this type of talk from mine, I can tell you that.
In terms of how to get this person to keep the house to a reasonable standard of cleanliness, if you can afford to actually follow through with this, tell him you're going to hire a maid and give them free reign to throw away whatever, stick clutter wherever, go through his shit, etc. and it's unilateral and not his decision. He has 24 hours to prove to you that he can pick his shit up like an adult.
posted by Sara C. at 7:27 PM on December 17, 2016 [38 favorites]
I'm assuming we're talking about a long term serious probably live-in partner, right? I would not accept this type of talk from mine, I can tell you that.
In terms of how to get this person to keep the house to a reasonable standard of cleanliness, if you can afford to actually follow through with this, tell him you're going to hire a maid and give them free reign to throw away whatever, stick clutter wherever, go through his shit, etc. and it's unilateral and not his decision. He has 24 hours to prove to you that he can pick his shit up like an adult.
posted by Sara C. at 7:27 PM on December 17, 2016 [38 favorites]
Why does he complain when he is asked more than once, but then not do the things?
Sexism is, as noted already, the answer to why he does it to you. but if you want to know why a person does this at all, ever, I can tell you as someone with the YOU'RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR reflex: it's because if he does it right away, the first time you ask, there's no way to pretend it was his idea all along and you had nothing to do with it.
people with this hang-up will insist that they were going to do it, GOD, MOM, they were completely about to do it when you came along and ordered them to do it and now they CAN'T because it's the PRINCIPLE of the thing now, and they have to allow enough time to go by to make the very important point that they are only doing the thing because they chose to. because freedom. I'm not doing this to make you happy, I'm doing it because I want to! and so on.
(there are other possible explanations for sure. like ADHD or other unspecified Brain Things where you honestly cannot hold a thought in your head for long enough to follow through despite the best of intentions. but if it's not that, it is probably that thing I described. but this is not an explanation of why an adult would allow that reflex to control him when dealing with an intimate partner or roommate. there's no particular excuse for that.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:34 PM on December 17, 2016 [38 favorites]
Sexism is, as noted already, the answer to why he does it to you. but if you want to know why a person does this at all, ever, I can tell you as someone with the YOU'RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR reflex: it's because if he does it right away, the first time you ask, there's no way to pretend it was his idea all along and you had nothing to do with it.
people with this hang-up will insist that they were going to do it, GOD, MOM, they were completely about to do it when you came along and ordered them to do it and now they CAN'T because it's the PRINCIPLE of the thing now, and they have to allow enough time to go by to make the very important point that they are only doing the thing because they chose to. because freedom. I'm not doing this to make you happy, I'm doing it because I want to! and so on.
(there are other possible explanations for sure. like ADHD or other unspecified Brain Things where you honestly cannot hold a thought in your head for long enough to follow through despite the best of intentions. but if it's not that, it is probably that thing I described. but this is not an explanation of why an adult would allow that reflex to control him when dealing with an intimate partner or roommate. there's no particular excuse for that.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:34 PM on December 17, 2016 [38 favorites]
Why is there never an outcome that makes me happy and leaves him sucking it for once?
Hmm. Sophie1 also had a box like yours. Perhaps yours also needs its own Twitter.
(Warning, first link opens the massive EL thread.)
posted by Room 641-A at 7:45 PM on December 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hmm. Sophie1 also had a box like yours. Perhaps yours also needs its own Twitter.
(Warning, first link opens the massive EL thread.)
posted by Room 641-A at 7:45 PM on December 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I know he does not enjoy chore stuff, but the fact that this matters to me should be enough.
Would it seem reasonable to you if he said, "I know she doesn't like it when I put off doing a chore she wants me to do, but being able to set my own priorities for how I use my time matters to me, and the fact that it matters to me should be enough?" If that sounds less reasonable to you than your statement above, why is that? It sounds like he may not be very motivated to do what matters to you, but it doesn't sound like you have much interest in considering what matters to him either.
If there's really never an outcome that leaves you happy, that's obviously a big problem. But is the cause of the problem his lack of interest in what matters to you, or is it that you're being unreasonably demanding? There's really no way for us to tell based on this one example. We don't know if the box has been in your living room for three months or for half an hour. And we don't know what he's doing instead of moving it or why whatever that is feels less valuable to you than dealing with the box.
posted by Redstart at 7:49 PM on December 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Would it seem reasonable to you if he said, "I know she doesn't like it when I put off doing a chore she wants me to do, but being able to set my own priorities for how I use my time matters to me, and the fact that it matters to me should be enough?" If that sounds less reasonable to you than your statement above, why is that? It sounds like he may not be very motivated to do what matters to you, but it doesn't sound like you have much interest in considering what matters to him either.
If there's really never an outcome that leaves you happy, that's obviously a big problem. But is the cause of the problem his lack of interest in what matters to you, or is it that you're being unreasonably demanding? There's really no way for us to tell based on this one example. We don't know if the box has been in your living room for three months or for half an hour. And we don't know what he's doing instead of moving it or why whatever that is feels less valuable to you than dealing with the box.
posted by Redstart at 7:49 PM on December 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Sometimes when one is anxious about control and agency outside of the home, it can be very comforting to have the leeway to be messy at home. It establishes that this space, at least, is one's own.
Perhaps one grew up in a very controlling household, and this act of defiance soothes an old wound. Perhaps the work environment is stifling (we all sing for our supper in some way), and this is a small symbolic reclamation of identity.
One could even be a neatnik at work, yet still need to have that bit of mess at home. It is not necessarily an act of disrespect directed at you.
If it's a spouse, consider that what you might spend on house cleaners or storage space, can be more effective and less expensive than a therapist. If it's an offspring, well they'll move out at some point hopefully.
One solution for you is to have a designated area in the house for all their mess - their room, the garage, the porch, whatever, and you can just shove everything there. Out of sight, out of mind.
posted by metaseeker at 8:01 PM on December 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
Perhaps one grew up in a very controlling household, and this act of defiance soothes an old wound. Perhaps the work environment is stifling (we all sing for our supper in some way), and this is a small symbolic reclamation of identity.
One could even be a neatnik at work, yet still need to have that bit of mess at home. It is not necessarily an act of disrespect directed at you.
If it's a spouse, consider that what you might spend on house cleaners or storage space, can be more effective and less expensive than a therapist. If it's an offspring, well they'll move out at some point hopefully.
One solution for you is to have a designated area in the house for all their mess - their room, the garage, the porch, whatever, and you can just shove everything there. Out of sight, out of mind.
posted by metaseeker at 8:01 PM on December 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
I had a housemate once who would never put his stuff away, never wash his dishes, and went ballistic when he felt "nagged".
The solution the rest of us happened upon was that annoying stuff in public places went in his bed. Large boxes of crap in the living room for a week? Stuff them under the covers. Dirty frying pan moldering in the sink since Wednesday? In between the sheets with you.
It didn't really make him tidier, but it was so fucking satisfying.
Doesn't work so well if you share a bed with your problem person, I guess, but not wanting to keep sharing a bed is kind of a natural consequence of this behavior anyway.
posted by lollusc at 8:08 PM on December 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
The solution the rest of us happened upon was that annoying stuff in public places went in his bed. Large boxes of crap in the living room for a week? Stuff them under the covers. Dirty frying pan moldering in the sink since Wednesday? In between the sheets with you.
It didn't really make him tidier, but it was so fucking satisfying.
Doesn't work so well if you share a bed with your problem person, I guess, but not wanting to keep sharing a bed is kind of a natural consequence of this behavior anyway.
posted by lollusc at 8:08 PM on December 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
Sometimes when one is anxious about control and agency outside of the home, it can be very comforting to have the leeway to be messy at home. It establishes that this space, at least, is one's own.
This is not a feeling that gets expressed by use of the word "nagging."
It amazes me that there are people in this thread who can convince themselves that maybe the husband is being reasonable and understandable in his behavior once the word "nagging" has been deployed. Once that word comes out, you are presumptively being an unreasonable little baby who's angry that no one is seeing to it that he can wallow in his own mess without consequence.
posted by praemunire at 8:10 PM on December 17, 2016 [54 favorites]
This is not a feeling that gets expressed by use of the word "nagging."
It amazes me that there are people in this thread who can convince themselves that maybe the husband is being reasonable and understandable in his behavior once the word "nagging" has been deployed. Once that word comes out, you are presumptively being an unreasonable little baby who's angry that no one is seeing to it that he can wallow in his own mess without consequence.
posted by praemunire at 8:10 PM on December 17, 2016 [54 favorites]
What about writing a note and sticking it on the fridge or even an email? Sometimes it is easier to respond to the written word than hearing it, for whatever reason.
posted by daneflute at 8:30 PM on December 17, 2016
posted by daneflute at 8:30 PM on December 17, 2016
You should try a whiteboard where you can both write chores that need doing and erase as you do them, that way the chores are there and visible but you don't need to nag (if just writing on the board is seen as nagging I think you are already doomed though).
posted by meepmeow at 8:38 PM on December 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by meepmeow at 8:38 PM on December 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I felt like I was nagging my husband so we bought in a white board system. I write down things he needs to remember on it & in return for me not nagging he agreed to check it daily & at least do one of the jobs on it. Oh & I have a part of the white board where he can write things if he needs me to do anything for him, like pick stuff up when I go shopping etc so its not one sided or anything.
Things like the box instead of letting them annoy me I move them to his area, most often his computer desk/chair. They then become his problem to put away. If that means shoving them all into a heap under the desk or on the floor where the dog sleeps on them so be it. Anything in his desk/man cave/side of his bed is not my problem. He is fine with this and every so often he will go on a mad tidy up of all of "his" areas.
Things I cannot physically do, like at the moment I have a bad back so can't carry the entire load of clean laundry basket upstairs for me to put away, it's amazing how he remembers to run down & get it when he's out of clean underwear (I can manage to carry a few small clothing items at a time up so I'm still not put out). A lot of our problems with me nagging, came about because I'd step in, either by nagging him to do something or doing it myself & then sulking because I knew what the consequences would be instead of letting him experience them.
We are both happier when he is self motivated & that means he needs to feel consequences. So his areas get cluttered with crap he hasn't put away etc.
It's not a perfect system. We run at around 70% of things get done with no worries, but it really reduces my feelings of yelling into an unheeding void when it comes to jobs around the house.
posted by wwax at 8:45 PM on December 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Things like the box instead of letting them annoy me I move them to his area, most often his computer desk/chair. They then become his problem to put away. If that means shoving them all into a heap under the desk or on the floor where the dog sleeps on them so be it. Anything in his desk/man cave/side of his bed is not my problem. He is fine with this and every so often he will go on a mad tidy up of all of "his" areas.
Things I cannot physically do, like at the moment I have a bad back so can't carry the entire load of clean laundry basket upstairs for me to put away, it's amazing how he remembers to run down & get it when he's out of clean underwear (I can manage to carry a few small clothing items at a time up so I'm still not put out). A lot of our problems with me nagging, came about because I'd step in, either by nagging him to do something or doing it myself & then sulking because I knew what the consequences would be instead of letting him experience them.
We are both happier when he is self motivated & that means he needs to feel consequences. So his areas get cluttered with crap he hasn't put away etc.
It's not a perfect system. We run at around 70% of things get done with no worries, but it really reduces my feelings of yelling into an unheeding void when it comes to jobs around the house.
posted by wwax at 8:45 PM on December 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Ask him how long he'd like you to wait before repeating a request. You can even frame it as being considerate to him "I don't want you to feel nagged either, I'm sorry you're feeling that way! I'd still like the ability to remind you about things because all of us can forget now and then. How about you let me know how long I should wait before I remind you so you don't feel nagged." There is no objective measurement of what constitutes nagging. It is up to him to state his boundaries, you ain't no mind reader.
As a sloppy husband, I can tell you I get super embarrassed and ashamed when I'm reminded that I neglected to do a very simple simple household task. The more embarrassed I am, the more I want to dismiss the request as nagging. There's a chance that your reminders trigger something similar in your household sloppyman. Cleaning reminders are often delivered with annoyance and impatience. However justified those feelings are, they increase the likelihood of triggering the defense response of calling you a nag.
posted by yorick at 8:46 PM on December 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
As a sloppy husband, I can tell you I get super embarrassed and ashamed when I'm reminded that I neglected to do a very simple simple household task. The more embarrassed I am, the more I want to dismiss the request as nagging. There's a chance that your reminders trigger something similar in your household sloppyman. Cleaning reminders are often delivered with annoyance and impatience. However justified those feelings are, they increase the likelihood of triggering the defense response of calling you a nag.
posted by yorick at 8:46 PM on December 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
I know he does not enjoy chore stuff, but the fact that this matters to me should be enough.
I think that you might do well to challenge this particular assumption. I can think of plenty of examples where "the fact that this matters to me..." could be a really inappropriate form of coercion, but since we are talking about chores and not questions of consent, I won't bother making the analogies.
For me, the issue is that I feel when it's something he wants done, it happens right away so I don't understand why the things I want can't be as important
If I assume that your complaint here is "he does things that he wants done, but not things that I want done," then I'd ask why don't you just do the things that you want and leave him out of it?
If it's "I do things when he asks, why doesn't he do the same for me?!" then I'd wonder what was really prompting you to do this mental scorekeeping, as opposed to just doing more of what you want.
What I can't figure out is what the deeper issue is for him. Why does this keep coming up for us? Why does he complain when he is asked more than once, but then not do the things?
I'm not your couples therapist, nor do I even know you. But, I once got some relationship advice that rankled at the time but makes more sense to me now that I've been married for a while: When your spouse is driving you nuts by leaving their dirty socks in the hallway, you can get angry, or you can just pick up the damn socks.
The reflexive answer to this is "why should I have to clean up his socks?" And the mature, healthy relationship answer to that is "because you care about the marriage more than the socks."
That being said, it's nicer not to have to clean up other people's dirty socks. So it's reasonable to try to find a real solution. And I'm willing to bet that you and family member keep having trouble because you keep "nagging" him to do stuff that he sees as unnecessary for whatever reason. Unless family member is a child, "because I say so" isn't a necessity. Or even "because I would prefer it."
To take the box example: why can't it just stay where it is? Why can't it be thrown out as is? Why can't it get moved to the garage? What are the real consequences of not doing anything with the box?
Finally... say you can't figure out "what the deeper issue for him," but from what you've written, it sounds like the one with the issue is you. And that's something you can actually work on, if it matters to you.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:50 PM on December 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think that you might do well to challenge this particular assumption. I can think of plenty of examples where "the fact that this matters to me..." could be a really inappropriate form of coercion, but since we are talking about chores and not questions of consent, I won't bother making the analogies.
For me, the issue is that I feel when it's something he wants done, it happens right away so I don't understand why the things I want can't be as important
If I assume that your complaint here is "he does things that he wants done, but not things that I want done," then I'd ask why don't you just do the things that you want and leave him out of it?
If it's "I do things when he asks, why doesn't he do the same for me?!" then I'd wonder what was really prompting you to do this mental scorekeeping, as opposed to just doing more of what you want.
What I can't figure out is what the deeper issue is for him. Why does this keep coming up for us? Why does he complain when he is asked more than once, but then not do the things?
I'm not your couples therapist, nor do I even know you. But, I once got some relationship advice that rankled at the time but makes more sense to me now that I've been married for a while: When your spouse is driving you nuts by leaving their dirty socks in the hallway, you can get angry, or you can just pick up the damn socks.
The reflexive answer to this is "why should I have to clean up his socks?" And the mature, healthy relationship answer to that is "because you care about the marriage more than the socks."
That being said, it's nicer not to have to clean up other people's dirty socks. So it's reasonable to try to find a real solution. And I'm willing to bet that you and family member keep having trouble because you keep "nagging" him to do stuff that he sees as unnecessary for whatever reason. Unless family member is a child, "because I say so" isn't a necessity. Or even "because I would prefer it."
To take the box example: why can't it just stay where it is? Why can't it be thrown out as is? Why can't it get moved to the garage? What are the real consequences of not doing anything with the box?
Finally... say you can't figure out "what the deeper issue for him," but from what you've written, it sounds like the one with the issue is you. And that's something you can actually work on, if it matters to you.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:50 PM on December 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
In our household, Google Calendar. I have access to put things on it, and if there's something I want him to do, I put it on his calendar, with a reminder set to repeat at whatever interval I please, until he takes the time to delete it. If he takes the time to delete it, he will first be taking the time to do the thing. Not only do I not have to feel like I'm nagging, he doesn't develop a visceral association with me telling him to do something over and over again, AND most importantly, I don't have to remember/pay attention to/keep track of whatever the hell it is I want him to do- my work is done.
Of course, this only works because he does think he ought to be responsible for things, but forgets, and so would not do a thing like delete a reminder without accomplishing a task. I also do not mind taking a ONE time effort to remind him of a thing that needs to get done, because he similarly does other things to streamline my life.
posted by pearshaped at 9:53 PM on December 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of course, this only works because he does think he ought to be responsible for things, but forgets, and so would not do a thing like delete a reminder without accomplishing a task. I also do not mind taking a ONE time effort to remind him of a thing that needs to get done, because he similarly does other things to streamline my life.
posted by pearshaped at 9:53 PM on December 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is pretty much exactly why I stopped being a couple's counselor. The counselor-approved answer is for the wife to consider the husband's delicate psyche and play all sorts of ridiculous games to avoid damaging it. The actual answer is that the husband is using stereotypes about "fragile male egos" to retain all the power in the situation and should be told to suck it up and act like an adult.
posted by lazuli at 11:11 PM on December 17, 2016 [81 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 11:11 PM on December 17, 2016 [81 favorites]
And the mature, healthy relationship answer to that is "because you care about the marriage more than the socks."
The hypothetical wife does, yes, but in your example, the hypothetical husband cares more about the socks than the marriage. This colors the character of the marriage despite a dutiful wife's best efforts to unsee that fact. and a marriage where one partner has to be beaten down and give up and give in every time is not a marriage that is, in the end, worth more than a goddamn pair of socks. at least not nice socks.
I certainly don't assume it's that bad in this actual case, he's probably not a monster. he is probably great in many ways. but the speculative justifications for his behavior make me think:
A man who does not want to be treated like a child says "I hate it when you give me orders, it makes me feel like you see yourself as the adult and me as the child." and that's fair. at the very least it can be discussed.
but a man who gets mad about "nagging" sees himself as the child and sees that the problem is mom is mean, not that wife is mom. that is a lot more severe and it is most definitely his issue, as well as hers.
another version of your hypothetical marriage advice I have heard is "do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?" Also frequently offered to women who have a hard time remembering that a woman's place is in the wrong. But the unheard answer is usually that they are less invested in being right than in being heard. Nagging means: your voice and your words are the problem. for someone who wants to be listened to, this is a great difficulty.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:47 PM on December 17, 2016 [69 favorites]
The hypothetical wife does, yes, but in your example, the hypothetical husband cares more about the socks than the marriage. This colors the character of the marriage despite a dutiful wife's best efforts to unsee that fact. and a marriage where one partner has to be beaten down and give up and give in every time is not a marriage that is, in the end, worth more than a goddamn pair of socks. at least not nice socks.
I certainly don't assume it's that bad in this actual case, he's probably not a monster. he is probably great in many ways. but the speculative justifications for his behavior make me think:
A man who does not want to be treated like a child says "I hate it when you give me orders, it makes me feel like you see yourself as the adult and me as the child." and that's fair. at the very least it can be discussed.
but a man who gets mad about "nagging" sees himself as the child and sees that the problem is mom is mean, not that wife is mom. that is a lot more severe and it is most definitely his issue, as well as hers.
another version of your hypothetical marriage advice I have heard is "do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?" Also frequently offered to women who have a hard time remembering that a woman's place is in the wrong. But the unheard answer is usually that they are less invested in being right than in being heard. Nagging means: your voice and your words are the problem. for someone who wants to be listened to, this is a great difficulty.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:47 PM on December 17, 2016 [69 favorites]
This is so common its a fucking trope. Its so common 90% of the people here are assuming the "family member" is your husband. TBH I think it would have been better if you'd specified, I think his relationship to you is important and relevant in how you should handle the situation. A teenager needs different handling than an adult, a husband needs different handling that your brother or father, because all these relationships have different power dynamics. for example, a teenager can be punished for not doing their chores
When it comes to a household member not doing their chores, you have very few options:
Do it your self
Keep reminding them until it gets done (ie nagging)
Live with the chore not getting done
(or if the thing is a physical object and he has his own space, you move the physical object out of the shared space and into his space)
For now, throw the box out (if there's something really valuable or important in the box, take it out and hide it so when the inevitable fight dies down, you can give it back)
We've been taught to think that nagging is bad and he's been taught that all he has to do is say the magic word "nag" and that casts you as the villain and you'll wither away because you're now clearly in the wrong. This is bollocks. If he doesn't want to be nagged, all he has to do is the thing you nicely asked him to do the first time you asked.
I say, keep nagging until shit gets done and when he complains that he's being nagged, remind him that if he'd done the chore when you asked him the first time, then you wouldn't need to nag. Stop being bothered by the word "nag". Don't let that word have power over you. But choose your battles, before you nag, think about how important is this task, is it a thing that really needs to be done and really needs to be done right now? Obviously the box in the middle of a shared living space needs to be dealt with but there might be smaller chores that in the grand scheme of things aren't that important and aren't worth nagging about.
You can't change the dynamic without giving up, because you aren't the problem. If you really want to get all therapy on him, instead of telling again to move the box. Ask him to explain to you why he hasn't dealt with the box yet or what is stopping him from dealing with the box? I think likely you'll find there is no deeper issue than laziness and stubborness though. He doesn't do the chore because he's lazy and/or forgetful (though its hard to see how he could forget if its in the middle of the room) and then doesn't do it when you ask because he's stubborn (and doesn't respect you enough - he's cast you as the parent/teacher and isn't going to do the thing because you've told him to do it and he was totally going to do it but now he can't because you've told him to and he doesn't want you to think that nagging is effective because he doesn't like being nagged - I had a similar issue with a piano teacher that I didn't like, he had books on mind control and stuff in his bag! I would be totally planning to practice more next week, but then he'd come up with some patronising "advice" on how to practice more like having a piece of chocolate on the piano to have after practice and I didn't want him to think his stupid suggestion had worked. But I was a child, for an adult to behave like that with a partner is pathetic tbh!)
posted by missmagenta at 4:16 AM on December 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
When it comes to a household member not doing their chores, you have very few options:
Do it your self
Keep reminding them until it gets done (ie nagging)
Live with the chore not getting done
(or if the thing is a physical object and he has his own space, you move the physical object out of the shared space and into his space)
For now, throw the box out (if there's something really valuable or important in the box, take it out and hide it so when the inevitable fight dies down, you can give it back)
We've been taught to think that nagging is bad and he's been taught that all he has to do is say the magic word "nag" and that casts you as the villain and you'll wither away because you're now clearly in the wrong. This is bollocks. If he doesn't want to be nagged, all he has to do is the thing you nicely asked him to do the first time you asked.
I say, keep nagging until shit gets done and when he complains that he's being nagged, remind him that if he'd done the chore when you asked him the first time, then you wouldn't need to nag. Stop being bothered by the word "nag". Don't let that word have power over you. But choose your battles, before you nag, think about how important is this task, is it a thing that really needs to be done and really needs to be done right now? Obviously the box in the middle of a shared living space needs to be dealt with but there might be smaller chores that in the grand scheme of things aren't that important and aren't worth nagging about.
You can't change the dynamic without giving up, because you aren't the problem. If you really want to get all therapy on him, instead of telling again to move the box. Ask him to explain to you why he hasn't dealt with the box yet or what is stopping him from dealing with the box? I think likely you'll find there is no deeper issue than laziness and stubborness though. He doesn't do the chore because he's lazy and/or forgetful (though its hard to see how he could forget if its in the middle of the room) and then doesn't do it when you ask because he's stubborn (and doesn't respect you enough - he's cast you as the parent/teacher and isn't going to do the thing because you've told him to do it and he was totally going to do it but now he can't because you've told him to and he doesn't want you to think that nagging is effective because he doesn't like being nagged - I had a similar issue with a piano teacher that I didn't like, he had books on mind control and stuff in his bag! I would be totally planning to practice more next week, but then he'd come up with some patronising "advice" on how to practice more like having a piece of chocolate on the piano to have after practice and I didn't want him to think his stupid suggestion had worked. But I was a child, for an adult to behave like that with a partner is pathetic tbh!)
posted by missmagenta at 4:16 AM on December 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Have you read about Love Languages?
"Unhappiness in marriage often has a simple root cause: we speak different love languages, believes Dr. Gary Chapman. While working as a marriage counselor for more than 30 years, he identified five love languages: Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Receiving Gifts, Acts of Service, and Physical Touch. According to this theory, each person has one primary and one secondary love language."
It sounds like "Acts of Service" is very important to you. He may not realize that his lack of action in the home is being received as a lack of love and respect. I imagine he is wonderful in many other ways, and would jump at the chance to learn a second love language so that you can be happy together.
posted by metaseeker at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Unhappiness in marriage often has a simple root cause: we speak different love languages, believes Dr. Gary Chapman. While working as a marriage counselor for more than 30 years, he identified five love languages: Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Receiving Gifts, Acts of Service, and Physical Touch. According to this theory, each person has one primary and one secondary love language."
It sounds like "Acts of Service" is very important to you. He may not realize that his lack of action in the home is being received as a lack of love and respect. I imagine he is wonderful in many other ways, and would jump at the chance to learn a second love language so that you can be happy together.
posted by metaseeker at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Honestly, I am concerned that you have chosen as Best Answers the options that ask you to think more about his feelings, to make your actions more palatable and pleasing, and to ponder deeply the motivations of his psyche.
Fuck that. He is an adult partner in an adult home and he needs to take care of his shit like a fucking adult. The solution is not for you to move the box, for you to throw out the box, for you to throw out the box but save and hide his special items in it like he is a child, or to ask how asking him to be a responsible adult in his own home is something you can make more pleasing to him.
"Nagging" is whiny man baby code for a huge count of gender role bullshit. Fuck that. Be 100% clear that you have every right in the universe to ban the word "nag" from your home. In my home, it is on the same list as "cunt" and "bitch." My partner calling me any of those things would precipitate a marital crisis.
Anyway, ask once with a time sensitive request. "After this show is over at 7, can you move this box? Or give me another time so I know it will get done."
If it doesn't get done, send an email the following day.
Subject: Box Reminder
Content: Please move box today as agreed. Set a reminder on your phone if needed.
After that, say nothing. Put the box on his side of the bed or store it in his closet or whatever if he doesn't do the thing he said he would; make it physically his uncomfortable, inconvenient problem. After having put this front ans center twice, using different methodologies, this is NOT passive aggression; it is passing off the baton of a problem someone else already agreed to adopt.
Please, please read the Emotional Labor thread because I think it will really be a revelation to you.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:36 AM on December 18, 2016 [21 favorites]
Fuck that. He is an adult partner in an adult home and he needs to take care of his shit like a fucking adult. The solution is not for you to move the box, for you to throw out the box, for you to throw out the box but save and hide his special items in it like he is a child, or to ask how asking him to be a responsible adult in his own home is something you can make more pleasing to him.
"Nagging" is whiny man baby code for a huge count of gender role bullshit. Fuck that. Be 100% clear that you have every right in the universe to ban the word "nag" from your home. In my home, it is on the same list as "cunt" and "bitch." My partner calling me any of those things would precipitate a marital crisis.
Anyway, ask once with a time sensitive request. "After this show is over at 7, can you move this box? Or give me another time so I know it will get done."
If it doesn't get done, send an email the following day.
Subject: Box Reminder
Content: Please move box today as agreed. Set a reminder on your phone if needed.
After that, say nothing. Put the box on his side of the bed or store it in his closet or whatever if he doesn't do the thing he said he would; make it physically his uncomfortable, inconvenient problem. After having put this front ans center twice, using different methodologies, this is NOT passive aggression; it is passing off the baton of a problem someone else already agreed to adopt.
Please, please read the Emotional Labor thread because I think it will really be a revelation to you.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:36 AM on December 18, 2016 [21 favorites]
I would just like to point out that "doing one's own fair share of household chores in a reasonable amount of time without waiting to be asked or whining about it" is not an act of service showing great love, it's a basic requirement of living on this planet with other people.
Acts of service would be things that your family member could do for you. Doing the housework is not a thing that he does as a service to you; that would only make sense if it was all your responsibility in the first place and he was doing you some kind of favour by pitching in.
posted by emilyw at 9:58 AM on December 18, 2016 [34 favorites]
Acts of service would be things that your family member could do for you. Doing the housework is not a thing that he does as a service to you; that would only make sense if it was all your responsibility in the first place and he was doing you some kind of favour by pitching in.
posted by emilyw at 9:58 AM on December 18, 2016 [34 favorites]
I am also assuming this is a male partner, because of course it is. In fact, I was just complaining about this exact dynamic here. And now one of your options is to do something passive aggressive in order to silently register your dissatisfaction.
Look at this, though. You're posting a question on the internet, spending all this time and mental energy trying to trick what I assume is a grownassed adult human into doing a simple little chore. And we're here armchair psychoanalyzing him and thinking of little child psychology tricks to get him to do his chores. These are all parenting techniques. Children need them because children need a little help understanding the consequences of their behaviors, and they need a little prodding and reinforcement to appreciate how those behaviors affect others. Also, children tend to have caretakers to smooth things over when they fail.
The thing about tedious little chores is that just about nobody actually enjoys doing them, which is why children need to be coerced. But fully functioning grownups understand that they have to be done anyway. He's acting like a petulant child, and it should not be your job to raise him. It shouldn't be your job to trick him or coerce him like he's a six year old with a messy room, and if you're having to 'nag' a grownassed man to do his chores, that reflects on him, not you.
I don't know how to deal with the box, honestly. Maybe refuse to discuss literally anything else until the box is dealt with? Pick it up while he's watching, and tell him you are right this minute going to drop it off at a donation site (and then do it if he doesn't act)? I'm not sure.
But he should be the one dealing with his personal discipline and motivation issues, not you.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:59 AM on December 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
Look at this, though. You're posting a question on the internet, spending all this time and mental energy trying to trick what I assume is a grownassed adult human into doing a simple little chore. And we're here armchair psychoanalyzing him and thinking of little child psychology tricks to get him to do his chores. These are all parenting techniques. Children need them because children need a little help understanding the consequences of their behaviors, and they need a little prodding and reinforcement to appreciate how those behaviors affect others. Also, children tend to have caretakers to smooth things over when they fail.
The thing about tedious little chores is that just about nobody actually enjoys doing them, which is why children need to be coerced. But fully functioning grownups understand that they have to be done anyway. He's acting like a petulant child, and it should not be your job to raise him. It shouldn't be your job to trick him or coerce him like he's a six year old with a messy room, and if you're having to 'nag' a grownassed man to do his chores, that reflects on him, not you.
I don't know how to deal with the box, honestly. Maybe refuse to discuss literally anything else until the box is dealt with? Pick it up while he's watching, and tell him you are right this minute going to drop it off at a donation site (and then do it if he doesn't act)? I'm not sure.
But he should be the one dealing with his personal discipline and motivation issues, not you.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:59 AM on December 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
Sorry, I have had a bad BAD night/weekend with someone who acts like this.
Throw it in the fucking garbage and then he can decide how important it is to him. Fuck walking around it for
4 days - toss that shit. Let him deal with the consequences.
posted by tristeza at 8:15 PM on December 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Throw it in the fucking garbage and then he can decide how important it is to him. Fuck walking around it for
4 days - toss that shit. Let him deal with the consequences.
posted by tristeza at 8:15 PM on December 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I want to clarify something just in case! I was picked as a "best answer", and I also noticed several people objecting to anyone encouraging coddling of the slob-man. I wanted to clarify something partially cuz I'm a little defensive, but mainly that it is an important distinction I feel strongly about.
When I point out that the slob-dude experiences shame and embarrassment from repeated requests to clean something, I want to be sure it's not interpreted as me suggesting he be given some slack. My intent is to provide insight on some of the emotional dynamics going on so you can tailor your communications to best get what you want.
If your top priority is making the cleaning happen, conceal your annoyance and make him feel unjudged. This isn't backing down, this is skillfully getting the outcome you want. If your priority is letting him know how his behavior is hurting you (a valid priority!), don't conceal that annoyance.
posted by yorick at 12:30 PM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
When I point out that the slob-dude experiences shame and embarrassment from repeated requests to clean something, I want to be sure it's not interpreted as me suggesting he be given some slack. My intent is to provide insight on some of the emotional dynamics going on so you can tailor your communications to best get what you want.
If your top priority is making the cleaning happen, conceal your annoyance and make him feel unjudged. This isn't backing down, this is skillfully getting the outcome you want. If your priority is letting him know how his behavior is hurting you (a valid priority!), don't conceal that annoyance.
posted by yorick at 12:30 PM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
large box sitting in the middle of our living room which requires 10 minutes of his attention
Please consider that your 10-minute estimate may or may not be realistic.
Or maybe it is a really short job. But because of anxiety, "he" may believe the chore is fraught with the danger of making a mistake.
Or because of ADHD, he may be distracted by too many perceived priorities to be able to focus on this one. Or maybe even if he agrees with you on the surface, he can't focus on the box for the time required.
My speculations may be BS, but you've not told us much about this male person.
posted by JimN2TAW at 4:30 PM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Please consider that your 10-minute estimate may or may not be realistic.
Or maybe it is a really short job. But because of anxiety, "he" may believe the chore is fraught with the danger of making a mistake.
Or because of ADHD, he may be distracted by too many perceived priorities to be able to focus on this one. Or maybe even if he agrees with you on the surface, he can't focus on the box for the time required.
My speculations may be BS, but you've not told us much about this male person.
posted by JimN2TAW at 4:30 PM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm assuming that we're talking about an adult member of the household who is supposed to be equal to you, not a kid or a lodger.
I think most people would agree that a box in the middle of the living room should be dealt with promptly. But not all people. And I don't see you getting very far in improving this if you get angry, threaten to throw his stuff out, or insult him for not behaving like an "adult." That's not how I'd like to be treated if I were doing something my partner didn't like.
Do the two of you maybe have genuinely different standards for household chores? Are you willing to negotiate, or is it all "Why doesn't he just maintain things exactly as I want, which is obviously right because everyone knows that a perfectly clean/tidy house is better than a less clean/untidy house?"
posted by Frenchy67 at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think most people would agree that a box in the middle of the living room should be dealt with promptly. But not all people. And I don't see you getting very far in improving this if you get angry, threaten to throw his stuff out, or insult him for not behaving like an "adult." That's not how I'd like to be treated if I were doing something my partner didn't like.
Do the two of you maybe have genuinely different standards for household chores? Are you willing to negotiate, or is it all "Why doesn't he just maintain things exactly as I want, which is obviously right because everyone knows that a perfectly clean/tidy house is better than a less clean/untidy house?"
posted by Frenchy67 at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
For me, the issue is that I feel when it's something he wants done, it happens right away so I don't understand why the things I want can't be as important
Do you mean that you immediately do the things he wants you to do, or are you upset that that he does the things he cares about but not the stuff you care about?
Why is there never an outcome that makes me happy and leaves him sucking it for once?
If it's your goal to make yourself happy and him unhappy, it seems fairly obvious why he would not cooperate.
As to the box in the middle of the living room, why not move it somewhere else? Does he not have some area of the house that's entirely his domain, to which it can be moved so you can forget about it?
posted by jon1270 at 6:58 PM on December 17, 2016 [6 favorites]