Help me hack my hackberry
January 6, 2006 9:23 AM Subscribe
How can I cut down this tree without squashing myself?
I came home from a trip to find an old hackberry had fallen. One half went one way, and is on the ground. The other, larger half is resting against other trees at about a forty-five degree angle. The top of the tree is now about thirty-five feet in the air. The trunk is about four feet across and divides about halfway up into several smaller trunks. Some are supported. I would let it be, but it's leaning up against trees that are leaning over my house. The lowest bid I've gotten to take care of it was $1,000. I can rent a crane for $200, a chainsaw for $50. I have plenty of experience using a chainsaw, but not chopping down trees this big or at this angle. Do you have any advice?
I came home from a trip to find an old hackberry had fallen. One half went one way, and is on the ground. The other, larger half is resting against other trees at about a forty-five degree angle. The top of the tree is now about thirty-five feet in the air. The trunk is about four feet across and divides about halfway up into several smaller trunks. Some are supported. I would let it be, but it's leaning up against trees that are leaning over my house. The lowest bid I've gotten to take care of it was $1,000. I can rent a crane for $200, a chainsaw for $50. I have plenty of experience using a chainsaw, but not chopping down trees this big or at this angle. Do you have any advice?
wgp speaks the truth. Hire a professional, unless you want to be posting a "What things can I do to entertain myself whilst in traction for the next three months" question.
posted by Jairus at 9:45 AM on January 6, 2006
posted by Jairus at 9:45 AM on January 6, 2006
Yow, I was all prepared to give advice, as I've cut down lots of trees in a friend's backyard, but man, a 4' wide trunk... that's a big tree.
I'll give a few things I know but this is probably out of my league, especially without seeing it.
* It helps if you can pull the tree in the direction you want it to fall, without actually being in that direction yourself. In my case, we used a long strong rope and a compound pully. The pully was anchored in the direction we wanted it to fall, and the puller would stand well to the side of the tree, with room to run in things went south. (The puller was at a 90 degree angle to the direction of the proposed fall). If the tree is leaning the other direction of where you want it to go, you're probably out of luck, you can't pull that hard. But you can give a tree a push in the right direction if it doesn't seem to have a bias.
* On larger trees we started as high as we could and removed branches on at a time. We used a little chain saw on a pole for larger branches, and a regular saw on a pole for smaller ones. We used a roped to guide those where possible.
* There is a proper cutting procedure/sequence. You probably already know this, and it's probably a bit irrelevant with a tree that size. But usually, you want to cut a wedge about 1/3 of the way through the tree on the *opposite* side of the direction you want it to fall. Then you start making your main cut on the side you want it to fall towards, *below* the wedge you cut. But not too far below. You're just trying to encourage the tree to go where you want. Being the cutter is the most dangerous job, probably, since when the tree breaks, the bottom part of the tree will often shoot up, and you're standing in it's path some of the time, with a running chainsaw.
Since the tree is supported at the top, you might have an easier time of this than if it was free at the top, since you won't have to worry so much about the potential arc of the tree falling. But it's hard to cut a log in the middle that is supported on both sides. It'll sag, closing your cut and causing the chainsaw to kickback.
Good luck...
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:45 AM on January 6, 2006
I'll give a few things I know but this is probably out of my league, especially without seeing it.
* It helps if you can pull the tree in the direction you want it to fall, without actually being in that direction yourself. In my case, we used a long strong rope and a compound pully. The pully was anchored in the direction we wanted it to fall, and the puller would stand well to the side of the tree, with room to run in things went south. (The puller was at a 90 degree angle to the direction of the proposed fall). If the tree is leaning the other direction of where you want it to go, you're probably out of luck, you can't pull that hard. But you can give a tree a push in the right direction if it doesn't seem to have a bias.
* On larger trees we started as high as we could and removed branches on at a time. We used a little chain saw on a pole for larger branches, and a regular saw on a pole for smaller ones. We used a roped to guide those where possible.
* There is a proper cutting procedure/sequence. You probably already know this, and it's probably a bit irrelevant with a tree that size. But usually, you want to cut a wedge about 1/3 of the way through the tree on the *opposite* side of the direction you want it to fall. Then you start making your main cut on the side you want it to fall towards, *below* the wedge you cut. But not too far below. You're just trying to encourage the tree to go where you want. Being the cutter is the most dangerous job, probably, since when the tree breaks, the bottom part of the tree will often shoot up, and you're standing in it's path some of the time, with a running chainsaw.
Since the tree is supported at the top, you might have an easier time of this than if it was free at the top, since you won't have to worry so much about the potential arc of the tree falling. But it's hard to cut a log in the middle that is supported on both sides. It'll sag, closing your cut and causing the chainsaw to kickback.
Good luck...
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:45 AM on January 6, 2006
Just in the past year, I've seen three news stories of non-professionals getting killed while felling trees. Not only would I hire someone, I'd go out of my way to ensure they were licensed, bonded, insured, etc.
posted by frogan at 9:57 AM on January 6, 2006
posted by frogan at 9:57 AM on January 6, 2006
Beware what you reads on da internets. It could get you killed. The advice above is exactly the opposite of what you want to do. You make your wedge cut on the side you want the tree to fall. You make your main cut on the side away from the fall and above it, not below it. For example, see here.
posted by JackFlash at 10:35 AM on January 6, 2006
posted by JackFlash at 10:35 AM on January 6, 2006
It's all very well to talk about the proper cutting procedure, but in a situation like this the tree can be under extreme tension. If you cut partially through, it can rip open longitudinally, like a jackknife, taking your head with it.
They call them widowmakers.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 10:43 AM on January 6, 2006
They call them widowmakers.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 10:43 AM on January 6, 2006
As someone whose felled a few trees, I agree with most of the other posters: for something this size, don't touch it yourself. Leave it to a felling service. For a start, your saw probably isn't big enough, and you likely don't want to handle the 36" or 48" monster that is. Also, to move the base off the house, you may need a tractor or power winch.
And yeah, Rusty's advice is backwards. you cut the wedge first, THEN backcut (but you probably already knew that). For logs on their sides like yours, you wedge-cut the top and do the final cut up from underneath, othewise the saw binds. Never, as implied above, cut down.
posted by bonehead at 10:47 AM on January 6, 2006
And yeah, Rusty's advice is backwards. you cut the wedge first, THEN backcut (but you probably already knew that). For logs on their sides like yours, you wedge-cut the top and do the final cut up from underneath, othewise the saw binds. Never, as implied above, cut down.
posted by bonehead at 10:47 AM on January 6, 2006
JackFlash is right.
Also- having a tree that is supported at the top is generally more dangerous than one that is free to fall cleanly. You don't know which way the support will give, and what the tree will do in response.
I've seen felled trees roll 10 feet laterally while in the process of falling (which takes only a few seconds). Trees that get hung up while falling (or are already supported) can translate this motion into a sweeping arc that is FAR faster moving than anyone could react. And getting hit by a tree at any speed is very bad news.
posted by Four Flavors at 10:48 AM on January 6, 2006
Also- having a tree that is supported at the top is generally more dangerous than one that is free to fall cleanly. You don't know which way the support will give, and what the tree will do in response.
I've seen felled trees roll 10 feet laterally while in the process of falling (which takes only a few seconds). Trees that get hung up while falling (or are already supported) can translate this motion into a sweeping arc that is FAR faster moving than anyone could react. And getting hit by a tree at any speed is very bad news.
posted by Four Flavors at 10:48 AM on January 6, 2006
Shit, you're right, I got the instructions backward. Sorry.
posted by RustyBrooks at 10:54 AM on January 6, 2006
posted by RustyBrooks at 10:54 AM on January 6, 2006
In any case, make sure you have someone video tape it. Trees falling on homes and cars is a regular appearance on America's Funniest Home Videos. You could win between $3,000 and $100,000.
posted by poppo at 11:35 AM on January 6, 2006
posted by poppo at 11:35 AM on January 6, 2006
I’ve taken down a lot of leaners, but never anything even close to that big or complicated. They’re always tricky and potentially dangerous because its next to impossible to figure out how securely the branches of the two trees are locked together, and how the various forces involved are working together. To further complicate the situation, a tree that has already split in two and fallen on its own is likely to have both major and minor limbs that are already near the breaking point.
These things are full of surprises. I’ve seen just the beginning of a cut cause a leaner to bend and twist and shake itself free. Just one cut in the wrong place could well be your last.
posted by Huplescat at 11:37 AM on January 6, 2006
These things are full of surprises. I’ve seen just the beginning of a cut cause a leaner to bend and twist and shake itself free. Just one cut in the wrong place could well be your last.
posted by Huplescat at 11:37 AM on January 6, 2006
Pandemonium and others have it right that tension is the big question here. I used to clear trails in the Cascades for the National Park Service. I was quickly taught that when a big tree has already half-fallen, you just can't be sure what will happen once you start to cut. You can be halfway through the trunk and it will suddenly split, towards you, throwing the chainsaw back in your face. Don't touch it.
posted by LarryC at 11:48 AM on January 6, 2006
posted by LarryC at 11:48 AM on January 6, 2006
Response by poster: Well, people, thanks for all the good advice.
Unfortunately, Rusty, I took your first piece of advice and cut the wedge where you said. The tree crushed the house, car, and the onlooking wife, kids and dog. But I've got it on videotape! Ha Ha!
Just kidding.
I've cut a few trees, and I'll tell you, just thinking about cutting this one was scaring me.
Thanks again to all of you for offering me sound, well-reasoned advice.
posted by atchafalaya at 12:05 PM on January 6, 2006
Unfortunately, Rusty, I took your first piece of advice and cut the wedge where you said. The tree crushed the house, car, and the onlooking wife, kids and dog. But I've got it on videotape! Ha Ha!
Just kidding.
I've cut a few trees, and I'll tell you, just thinking about cutting this one was scaring me.
Thanks again to all of you for offering me sound, well-reasoned advice.
posted by atchafalaya at 12:05 PM on January 6, 2006
I think loggers call trees that are hung-up like this widow-makers.
Is there any chance your insurance would cover the bill for this?
posted by TimeFactor at 12:16 PM on January 6, 2006
Is there any chance your insurance would cover the bill for this?
posted by TimeFactor at 12:16 PM on January 6, 2006
I second the idea of seeing if your insurance company will cover the cost of a professional. I have cut down any number of trees, but I do not hesitate to call the pros if I might be out of my league.
posted by TedW at 12:44 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by TedW at 12:44 PM on January 6, 2006
Since the question has been well answered at this point...
You could try dynamite, it worked on that dead beached whale.
hehe
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 12:54 PM on January 6, 2006
You could try dynamite, it worked on that dead beached whale.
hehe
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 12:54 PM on January 6, 2006
Response by poster: The image of a rain of rotting blubber feels about right.
posted by atchafalaya at 1:13 PM on January 6, 2006
posted by atchafalaya at 1:13 PM on January 6, 2006
I'll second -- third, sixth? -- the bonded professional recommendation.
I love telling this story, because at least nobody got hurt. 25 years ago a landscape architect friend got hired to cut down the dead elm across the street, which was on the front lawn of a Victorian house with a full porch.
Says it all right there, doesn't it?
He and his helpers started trimming branches off from a cherry-picker, and that went generally well, but eventually they had some pretty hefty branches to deal with. They came up with a scheme to rope part of the branch over the porch to a pickup, which was pointed up our driveway with an assistant poised on the gas pedal. Our LA friend was roped to the upper part of the tree, cutting at the branch from above. Safe for him. Unfortunately, the assistant missed his cue as the branch began to snap. The LA pulled himself to safety as the branch split and fell, crushing and collapsing the porch roof.
At approximately the moment that it hit the porch roof, the pickup began to move forward. There was no tension on the rope, so he accelerated forward pretty quickly, then hit the brakes just before he crashed into our garage.
I swear it was like a Buster Keaton sketch or something.
The tree came down, but the porch was a total loss -- they eventually demolished the whole thing, and the house looks a little naked to this day.
The lesson? Paying $1000 to a professional who knows what he's doing may well save you an even greater loss, and that's assuming nobody gets hurt.
posted by dhartung at 12:26 PM on January 7, 2006
I love telling this story, because at least nobody got hurt. 25 years ago a landscape architect friend got hired to cut down the dead elm across the street, which was on the front lawn of a Victorian house with a full porch.
Says it all right there, doesn't it?
He and his helpers started trimming branches off from a cherry-picker, and that went generally well, but eventually they had some pretty hefty branches to deal with. They came up with a scheme to rope part of the branch over the porch to a pickup, which was pointed up our driveway with an assistant poised on the gas pedal. Our LA friend was roped to the upper part of the tree, cutting at the branch from above. Safe for him. Unfortunately, the assistant missed his cue as the branch began to snap. The LA pulled himself to safety as the branch split and fell, crushing and collapsing the porch roof.
At approximately the moment that it hit the porch roof, the pickup began to move forward. There was no tension on the rope, so he accelerated forward pretty quickly, then hit the brakes just before he crashed into our garage.
I swear it was like a Buster Keaton sketch or something.
The tree came down, but the porch was a total loss -- they eventually demolished the whole thing, and the house looks a little naked to this day.
The lesson? Paying $1000 to a professional who knows what he's doing may well save you an even greater loss, and that's assuming nobody gets hurt.
posted by dhartung at 12:26 PM on January 7, 2006
Response by poster: Followup:
I procrastinated. The tree fell down on its own, but not all the way. The result was actually worse; it was pushing on trees that were now leaning over the house, and cracking.
There was a part I was able to cut, but it didn't help. My girlfriend finally talked some sense into me, and I called the guys up. They were out here yesterday, and wreaked a wholesale slaughter of the trees. They'll finish today.
Mefites, you were right, thank you. The equipment these guys have is way beyond what I could have rented or operated safely. That they were insured also helped.
Thank you all for the answers.
posted by atchafalaya at 8:05 AM on January 26, 2006
I procrastinated. The tree fell down on its own, but not all the way. The result was actually worse; it was pushing on trees that were now leaning over the house, and cracking.
There was a part I was able to cut, but it didn't help. My girlfriend finally talked some sense into me, and I called the guys up. They were out here yesterday, and wreaked a wholesale slaughter of the trees. They'll finish today.
Mefites, you were right, thank you. The equipment these guys have is way beyond what I could have rented or operated safely. That they were insured also helped.
Thank you all for the answers.
posted by atchafalaya at 8:05 AM on January 26, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 9:38 AM on January 6, 2006