A divorce with kids?
January 4, 2006 7:58 AM Subscribe
A divorce with kids? Not unusual I know but for me, it's my first personal experience with it and I would like some help from all of you....
I'm hoping to get some help from the Mefi community. I've been married 8 years (total of 12 together), we have two children 4/3 (girl and boy). Without getting into a twelve year history of our relationship, let's just say, we met at a show, dated immediately and were fast friends: 5 years later, we got married. The friendship is as strong today as it was then, it's just the reality of a relationship devoid of intimacy is taking a heavy toll. And when I say intimacy, I don't mean sex, exclusively - I mean even the simple things like holding hands, buying small nothings for eachother, kissing on the way out the door, a hug when you come home....things like that. Just never been a big part of the relationship.
And early on, it wasn't a big issue with me. We get along so great, it just never hit my radar screen. From the time we got married, when we did have sex, it was to conceive (sex was always not the most pleasant experience for her, but I will elaborate shortly). When we decided to have our son, intimacy started to matter much more to me (or at least, it was an observation I was making more and more). I know the great experience of being a dad and the obvious intimacy such a relationship had a lot to do with that. The point is, via that emotional growth from being an involved and loving dad, I wanted it to permeate my life. It has not.
Two years ago, during a talk about this very topic, she revealed (quite amazingly) that when she was young, let's just say some unpleasant things had happened to her. Explained a lot - at least from my perspective. I told her she needed counseling. We've discussed this a few times since (just the counseling aspect because I am NOT going to attempt to work the complexities of her situation out, I am not qualified and I have no frame of reference anyway). Still no counseling.
Still, we laugh together like best friends would and I have to say, we are AWESOME parents to our two kids. We rarely fight, rarely have a cross word for the other, but the specter of this issue looms. Both of us agree, we have a fantastic partership where our children are concerned and have talked at length about the reality of divorce and how that would impact our relationship with our children. In the end, we know 'we' aren't working but 'we' work so damned well with our kids. I have no experience with divorce, she has gone through two step dads. She doesn't talk much about her past so it doesn't help me to understand.
Sorry to be so long winded, this whole thing makes me upset. In the end, I think that for my happiness (and I suppose, ultimately hers to), I have to go. How do we do this when we are such a good 'parenting' team? Am I going to be relegated to only seeing my kids one, maybe two days a week? Divorce isn't a success story I know, but are there Mefites out there making it work? If so, please, I'd like to know your story. Can you still be a great parent from another house? This sucks. Please help.
I'm hoping to get some help from the Mefi community. I've been married 8 years (total of 12 together), we have two children 4/3 (girl and boy). Without getting into a twelve year history of our relationship, let's just say, we met at a show, dated immediately and were fast friends: 5 years later, we got married. The friendship is as strong today as it was then, it's just the reality of a relationship devoid of intimacy is taking a heavy toll. And when I say intimacy, I don't mean sex, exclusively - I mean even the simple things like holding hands, buying small nothings for eachother, kissing on the way out the door, a hug when you come home....things like that. Just never been a big part of the relationship.
And early on, it wasn't a big issue with me. We get along so great, it just never hit my radar screen. From the time we got married, when we did have sex, it was to conceive (sex was always not the most pleasant experience for her, but I will elaborate shortly). When we decided to have our son, intimacy started to matter much more to me (or at least, it was an observation I was making more and more). I know the great experience of being a dad and the obvious intimacy such a relationship had a lot to do with that. The point is, via that emotional growth from being an involved and loving dad, I wanted it to permeate my life. It has not.
Two years ago, during a talk about this very topic, she revealed (quite amazingly) that when she was young, let's just say some unpleasant things had happened to her. Explained a lot - at least from my perspective. I told her she needed counseling. We've discussed this a few times since (just the counseling aspect because I am NOT going to attempt to work the complexities of her situation out, I am not qualified and I have no frame of reference anyway). Still no counseling.
Still, we laugh together like best friends would and I have to say, we are AWESOME parents to our two kids. We rarely fight, rarely have a cross word for the other, but the specter of this issue looms. Both of us agree, we have a fantastic partership where our children are concerned and have talked at length about the reality of divorce and how that would impact our relationship with our children. In the end, we know 'we' aren't working but 'we' work so damned well with our kids. I have no experience with divorce, she has gone through two step dads. She doesn't talk much about her past so it doesn't help me to understand.
Sorry to be so long winded, this whole thing makes me upset. In the end, I think that for my happiness (and I suppose, ultimately hers to), I have to go. How do we do this when we are such a good 'parenting' team? Am I going to be relegated to only seeing my kids one, maybe two days a week? Divorce isn't a success story I know, but are there Mefites out there making it work? If so, please, I'd like to know your story. Can you still be a great parent from another house? This sucks. Please help.
Some people say kids are the only reason modern society stays monogamous for the most part. Other than that, you're inviting comments from all sides on this one so I'm going to neatly step aside and not watch, and wish you godspeed kind sir.
posted by kcm at 8:04 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by kcm at 8:04 AM on January 4, 2006
It sucks. It's going to keep sucking, for a long time. You'll get used to it, somewhat, but it'll never be really OK.
I ended a 10-year marriage for pretty much the reasons you list, no intimacy and a resistance to change on her part. We did have some pretty huge blowups, especially near the end, and our daughter was, sadly, exposed to some of them. That made it easier to end the marriage, for sure, but I've seen couples weather a lot worse. In the end, though, I needed the intimacy more than I needed to stay married. It was, ultimately, a selfish decision, but it was one I had to make in order to, you know, stay alive.
I didn't have quite the good relations with my (now-ex)wife that you apparently have, but we do OK. We've done some post-divorce counseling, and we talk often and openly (though a bit awkwardly) about various parenting issues. We've been separated, then divorced, for 7 years now, and our daughter is 10, well adjusted, and happy. It's still really hard around holidays, and I do wonder what sort of emotional damage we've done to her.
I have dinner withy my daughter every Wednesday, and she's at our house every other weekend, Friday through Sunday. No, it's not nearly enough time with her, and I do often feel out of touch or uninvolved with her life. But my mom told me that I spend more time with my daughter than my brother spends with his kids, who he lives with, and I see that I do pretty well in comparison to many still-married dads.
I'm certainly happier. I've remarried, to a wonderful, emotionally open woman, who loves my daughter deeply. My ex is remarried, too, to a guy who was more to her liking, apparently. I do get the guilts pretty seriously, and not completely unjustified, really, but life is better now than before. And that's what your goal is--you cannot have a perfect father-mother-children relationship, no matter what you do, but you can have better.
So, again, yes, it will suck. You'll need to decide if it sucks worse for you to stay married.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:13 AM on January 4, 2006
I ended a 10-year marriage for pretty much the reasons you list, no intimacy and a resistance to change on her part. We did have some pretty huge blowups, especially near the end, and our daughter was, sadly, exposed to some of them. That made it easier to end the marriage, for sure, but I've seen couples weather a lot worse. In the end, though, I needed the intimacy more than I needed to stay married. It was, ultimately, a selfish decision, but it was one I had to make in order to, you know, stay alive.
I didn't have quite the good relations with my (now-ex)wife that you apparently have, but we do OK. We've done some post-divorce counseling, and we talk often and openly (though a bit awkwardly) about various parenting issues. We've been separated, then divorced, for 7 years now, and our daughter is 10, well adjusted, and happy. It's still really hard around holidays, and I do wonder what sort of emotional damage we've done to her.
I have dinner withy my daughter every Wednesday, and she's at our house every other weekend, Friday through Sunday. No, it's not nearly enough time with her, and I do often feel out of touch or uninvolved with her life. But my mom told me that I spend more time with my daughter than my brother spends with his kids, who he lives with, and I see that I do pretty well in comparison to many still-married dads.
I'm certainly happier. I've remarried, to a wonderful, emotionally open woman, who loves my daughter deeply. My ex is remarried, too, to a guy who was more to her liking, apparently. I do get the guilts pretty seriously, and not completely unjustified, really, but life is better now than before. And that's what your goal is--you cannot have a perfect father-mother-children relationship, no matter what you do, but you can have better.
So, again, yes, it will suck. You'll need to decide if it sucks worse for you to stay married.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:13 AM on January 4, 2006
Get yourself some counseling. Get some for the kids, too, before the shit hits the fan, so they can always have a safe place to talk about this kind of stuff. Finding someone the kids like and trust may take a while. They will be a lot less trusting once things are bad.
posted by bilabial at 8:13 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by bilabial at 8:13 AM on January 4, 2006
I'm amicably divorced and have two kids (aged 4 and 5). The arrangement I have is 50/50 with my ex. I have the kids on Mondays and Tuesdays, she has them on Wednsdays and Thursdays, and we alternate weekends. We also alternate major holidays. We're (fairly) flexible with each other on getting kids for special occasions, working out vacations with or without the kids.
It's great that you and your spouse are still friends, and so you're still communicating. Dating others of course will introduce new (sometimes difficult) dynamics into your parenting relationships with your kids, but as long as your core friendship is there, things shouldn't change too much.
I think it's a good idea to make sure that you're spending your life with someone who is a good match for you, and that you're good role models for your kids. Moving into a new relationship may be difficult at first, but ulitimately I think your kids will see that just because you had one failed relationship, you were still able to moving into a new relationship (at least, that's what I took away from my parents divorce and re-marriages).
Depending on how friendly you remain, other possibilities include spending major holidays together, planning kids birthdays together, possibly even joint family vacations. Good parenting will also include keeping consistent rules for your kids and teaching them values you both agree on.
Then again, considering her history with her own divorced parents, perhaps the very thought of divorce will push her towards getting counseling.
posted by indigo4963 at 8:20 AM on January 4, 2006
It's great that you and your spouse are still friends, and so you're still communicating. Dating others of course will introduce new (sometimes difficult) dynamics into your parenting relationships with your kids, but as long as your core friendship is there, things shouldn't change too much.
I think it's a good idea to make sure that you're spending your life with someone who is a good match for you, and that you're good role models for your kids. Moving into a new relationship may be difficult at first, but ulitimately I think your kids will see that just because you had one failed relationship, you were still able to moving into a new relationship (at least, that's what I took away from my parents divorce and re-marriages).
Depending on how friendly you remain, other possibilities include spending major holidays together, planning kids birthdays together, possibly even joint family vacations. Good parenting will also include keeping consistent rules for your kids and teaching them values you both agree on.
Then again, considering her history with her own divorced parents, perhaps the very thought of divorce will push her towards getting counseling.
posted by indigo4963 at 8:20 AM on January 4, 2006
Yes, you can be a great parent from another house. You can be a great parent from another state, even, if you are determined enough, and it sounds like you are.
The primary thing, of course, is to put the kids first and foremost in every decision you make. That means that you don't get hysterical over equal time with the kids without noticing or caring that they would be happier to stay in one place during the school week, you don't fight over whose weekend it is or holidays (holidays can be tough), you don't demand that the children never bring toys or clothes from one house to another even though they cry when they leave them, you don't flip out when your ex has a new lover (which will happen) and so on. It's pretty much common sense: stop worrying about your ex partner, assume that she is a good parent, as you know she is, and focus exclusively on the kids. This can be harder than it sounds, I'm afraid.
What I would recommend you do is sit down & talk with a mediator about joint custody and what you both want for the kids before you even move out. That way the cards are on the table to start and you don't just kind of lurch into something. Some people have had success with duplexes or being next door neighbors, but I think they are in the minority.
Also, kids of divorce can be great; mine have turned out just fine.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:24 AM on January 4, 2006
The primary thing, of course, is to put the kids first and foremost in every decision you make. That means that you don't get hysterical over equal time with the kids without noticing or caring that they would be happier to stay in one place during the school week, you don't fight over whose weekend it is or holidays (holidays can be tough), you don't demand that the children never bring toys or clothes from one house to another even though they cry when they leave them, you don't flip out when your ex has a new lover (which will happen) and so on. It's pretty much common sense: stop worrying about your ex partner, assume that she is a good parent, as you know she is, and focus exclusively on the kids. This can be harder than it sounds, I'm afraid.
What I would recommend you do is sit down & talk with a mediator about joint custody and what you both want for the kids before you even move out. That way the cards are on the table to start and you don't just kind of lurch into something. Some people have had success with duplexes or being next door neighbors, but I think they are in the minority.
Also, kids of divorce can be great; mine have turned out just fine.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:24 AM on January 4, 2006
You might want to check out ojar for some ongoing support and coping tips.
posted by necessitas at 8:25 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by necessitas at 8:25 AM on January 4, 2006
No, divorce needn't always be catastrophic. Yes, you can be a great parent from another house.
According to your story, you've built a great home for your kids, a solid environment where they can grow up. Divorce needn't drive your family to ruin; but it will, absolutely, cause pain and discomfort for everyone involved. Kids are resilient and they'll recover, and you could claim that finding happiness for yourself will make them happier; there are lots of weak rationalizations. The uncontestable bottom line is: Since your home is not abusive or otherwise tumultuous, breaking it amounts to shifting the toll for your problems onto your children.
I'd politely suggest that you work at making your marriage better, then work more, then work some more — and if none of that solves your problem, then suck it up and live with it until your children have grown. Once they reach adulthood, they can build stable homes of their own. In the meantime, that's your job.
posted by cribcage at 8:26 AM on January 4, 2006
I think that for my happiness...I have to go.Many couples would love to have your problems — but that aside, it's too bad you're not saying, "For my kids' happiness, I should stay."
According to your story, you've built a great home for your kids, a solid environment where they can grow up. Divorce needn't drive your family to ruin; but it will, absolutely, cause pain and discomfort for everyone involved. Kids are resilient and they'll recover, and you could claim that finding happiness for yourself will make them happier; there are lots of weak rationalizations. The uncontestable bottom line is: Since your home is not abusive or otherwise tumultuous, breaking it amounts to shifting the toll for your problems onto your children.
I'd politely suggest that you work at making your marriage better, then work more, then work some more — and if none of that solves your problem, then suck it up and live with it until your children have grown. Once they reach adulthood, they can build stable homes of their own. In the meantime, that's your job.
posted by cribcage at 8:26 AM on January 4, 2006
Crib has a point - especially considering that it is your relationship with your children that's made you more aware of the need for intimacy in your life. Would you still even want that intimacy with a partner if you were unable to have it with your children every day?
Additionally, the standard of living of one or both partners, as well as the children, often goes down after divorce, even with alimony and child support. The rate of return is just greater cohabiting.
Would you or your wife consider exploring more sexual openness possibilities for you in order to supplement the intimacy of your family life?
posted by By The Grace of God at 8:31 AM on January 4, 2006
Additionally, the standard of living of one or both partners, as well as the children, often goes down after divorce, even with alimony and child support. The rate of return is just greater cohabiting.
Would you or your wife consider exploring more sexual openness possibilities for you in order to supplement the intimacy of your family life?
posted by By The Grace of God at 8:31 AM on January 4, 2006
Still, we laugh together like best friends would and I have to say, we are AWESOME parents to our two kids. We rarely fight, rarely have a cross word for the other
Sounds like a mid-life crisis on your part to me. I would get some counseling yourself first before breaking up what appears to be a functioning marriage. It is hard to see exactly what kind of intimacy you crave, but if you can talk to your wife about you, your feelings, your desires in life and she can listen and respond as a person who truly cares about you and your feelings then I am not sure you are going to find something much deeper. Not every relationship involves the storybook long walks on the beach etc. That stuff is great, but real intimacy is the ability to be honest with each other about yourselves and being accepted for it. Perhaps a split is the right thing, but I suggest you look into yourself a little deeper before you take a step that you can not take back. Please also consider that even the most amicable of divorces are terribly hard on the children.
posted by caddis at 8:32 AM on January 4, 2006
Sounds like a mid-life crisis on your part to me. I would get some counseling yourself first before breaking up what appears to be a functioning marriage. It is hard to see exactly what kind of intimacy you crave, but if you can talk to your wife about you, your feelings, your desires in life and she can listen and respond as a person who truly cares about you and your feelings then I am not sure you are going to find something much deeper. Not every relationship involves the storybook long walks on the beach etc. That stuff is great, but real intimacy is the ability to be honest with each other about yourselves and being accepted for it. Perhaps a split is the right thing, but I suggest you look into yourself a little deeper before you take a step that you can not take back. Please also consider that even the most amicable of divorces are terribly hard on the children.
posted by caddis at 8:32 AM on January 4, 2006
While my parents got divorced 24 years ago, and while my mom and dad did a really great job of parenting together, never exposing my sister and me to the horrors of the break-up, and generally everyone points to the great success my family has made out of the divorce, handling it better than anyone can expect, let me just say...
It fucking blows.
That's not to say it would've been any better had they stayed together, and I'm sure they tried hard, but I wish they'd have tried a little harder, y'know?
And my sister, five years older, now 35, has more trouble with it than I do. Both of us had massive amounts of counseling back in the day, when it was all going down and on and off for about ten years after, and sometimes when I dip back into the world o' shrinks it's always the first thing that comes up. My parents are really great, I'm very close to both of them and my sister, and if they'd stayed together I woulda lived a charmed freakin' life. Whatever, I live a charmed life anyway, but still...
I'm just saying that while it might look like everyone's well-adjusted, that the family unit settles into an untraditional but ultimately successful place, and that it'll all be OK in the end, my family should be that end point. It's funny, really, because I was going to write a post about how it'll work out and divorced families can function and good parenting is possible if the two of you put aside your differences, talk frequently (my parents talked daily on the phone on their lunch breaks), and keep it away from the kids, but that's not really how I feel most of the time. I want to give you the rubber stamp to go for it, to do what's necessary for yourself and your relationship, and let's face it, MoonPie's statement that you'll need to decide if it sucks worse for you to stay married is entirely on target, but still...
Oh, and holidays? You have No. Fucking. Idea. Not like anyone's holidays are dandy, but...
posted by incessant at 8:35 AM on January 4, 2006
It fucking blows.
That's not to say it would've been any better had they stayed together, and I'm sure they tried hard, but I wish they'd have tried a little harder, y'know?
And my sister, five years older, now 35, has more trouble with it than I do. Both of us had massive amounts of counseling back in the day, when it was all going down and on and off for about ten years after, and sometimes when I dip back into the world o' shrinks it's always the first thing that comes up. My parents are really great, I'm very close to both of them and my sister, and if they'd stayed together I woulda lived a charmed freakin' life. Whatever, I live a charmed life anyway, but still...
I'm just saying that while it might look like everyone's well-adjusted, that the family unit settles into an untraditional but ultimately successful place, and that it'll all be OK in the end, my family should be that end point. It's funny, really, because I was going to write a post about how it'll work out and divorced families can function and good parenting is possible if the two of you put aside your differences, talk frequently (my parents talked daily on the phone on their lunch breaks), and keep it away from the kids, but that's not really how I feel most of the time. I want to give you the rubber stamp to go for it, to do what's necessary for yourself and your relationship, and let's face it, MoonPie's statement that you'll need to decide if it sucks worse for you to stay married is entirely on target, but still...
Oh, and holidays? You have No. Fucking. Idea. Not like anyone's holidays are dandy, but...
posted by incessant at 8:35 AM on January 4, 2006
The only damage to your kids you need to worry about is if you and your ex become enemies. Things may be agreeable now but schedules change, new people come into the picture, things change. Through all of this you and your ex must agree that the kids will not see any fights or be told anything unsupportive about the other parent. You will have to talk you all of your firends and relatives and make them agree to this condition as well.
posted by StarForce5 at 8:40 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by StarForce5 at 8:40 AM on January 4, 2006
It sucks. It's going to keep sucking, for a long time. You'll get used to it, somewhat, but it'll never be really OK.
Yeah. Don't get divorced unless you have to. I won't pretend to know you, but it doesn't sound like you're there yet. Have you tried counseling for yourself? A pro might be able to help you deal with your wife's problems.
posted by Eamon at 8:41 AM on January 4, 2006
Yeah. Don't get divorced unless you have to. I won't pretend to know you, but it doesn't sound like you're there yet. Have you tried counseling for yourself? A pro might be able to help you deal with your wife's problems.
posted by Eamon at 8:41 AM on January 4, 2006
I normally wouldn’t give such declarative advice this but: don’t be so quick to get divorced! It sounds like there’s still so much there in your relationship – beyond just “staying together for the kids.” Would the tradeoff really be worth it? Would “intimacy” with some unknown future person really be worth the laughter and history you’d be losing?
Also, do not underestimate the pain of being a father who can’t live full time with his children. It will hurt much, much worse than you can imagine. Just read some Andres Dubus stories to find out.
posted by footnote at 8:49 AM on January 4, 2006
Also, do not underestimate the pain of being a father who can’t live full time with his children. It will hurt much, much worse than you can imagine. Just read some Andres Dubus stories to find out.
posted by footnote at 8:49 AM on January 4, 2006
Your description of your marriage is one which does not sound like divorce is necessary. This may just be the way that you're describing it in order to detail how little such a move would damage your ability to parent your kids, but it sounds like you've got something that is pretty good going.
Were I you, or your wife, I'd put a lot of effort into trying to save what you've got and improve it. This isn't a moral judgement, but a practical one, for all involved. Divorce is hard on people for all kinds of reasons, and really should be pretty much a last resort for those reasons. I would suggest individual and couples counseling, as well as a discussion of the stakes involved. It's not clear from your question what your wife thinks of all this, her recalcitrance about entering individual counseling herself need not be a reflection of her feelings about your marriage. If you think it is then make sure she knows you think so.
Remember that you can always get a divorce later if counseling does not work. Good luck.
posted by OmieWise at 8:50 AM on January 4, 2006
Were I you, or your wife, I'd put a lot of effort into trying to save what you've got and improve it. This isn't a moral judgement, but a practical one, for all involved. Divorce is hard on people for all kinds of reasons, and really should be pretty much a last resort for those reasons. I would suggest individual and couples counseling, as well as a discussion of the stakes involved. It's not clear from your question what your wife thinks of all this, her recalcitrance about entering individual counseling herself need not be a reflection of her feelings about your marriage. If you think it is then make sure she knows you think so.
Remember that you can always get a divorce later if counseling does not work. Good luck.
posted by OmieWise at 8:50 AM on January 4, 2006
My best friend's parents sound just like you and your wife. This solution may only work for like, one in one thousand divorcing couples, but her parents basically became roommates. They went into different bedrooms, and while they never exposed the kids to their dating lives, after the kids grew a bit older, they realised that their parents were seeing other people. But on day to day living, her parents were the same as always. And were always around weekends etc. I used to go over and stay with them, and they always seemed normal and fun (from a 9 year old's perspective).
This was from when my friend was about 8 till 15 years old, and her sister was a year younger. After that, the father moved out, a couple of streets away. My friend (now 30) still thinks that that setup was the best for her and her sister.
I'm sure it was very very difficult for the parents, and like I said maybe workable for very few people. But another thing to consider?
posted by gaspode at 8:55 AM on January 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
This was from when my friend was about 8 till 15 years old, and her sister was a year younger. After that, the father moved out, a couple of streets away. My friend (now 30) still thinks that that setup was the best for her and her sister.
I'm sure it was very very difficult for the parents, and like I said maybe workable for very few people. But another thing to consider?
posted by gaspode at 8:55 AM on January 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that the OP has tried working at it, and his wife refuses to cooperate.
It's a two way street, and if she flat out refuses to get help with her problems, how can he "work" at keeping the marriage together?
I, personally, can't even imagine being in a relationship with no intimacy. We're not just talking "long walks on the beach" as someone said- this woman doesn't even want to have sex with her husband. We can all be prudes and pretend otherwise, but the reality is that physical intimacy is a big part of a normal marriage.
These kids are going to learn how relationships work by observing their parents. If they can tell that their father is unhappy, and that their parents never hug or kiss, they could be in for many years of screwed up relationships themselves.
As much as ultimatums suck, I think the OP should really be honest with her. Tell her he's unhappy, tell her exactly why, and say if she doesn't get therapy and make some kind of effort to have a normal and healthy married relationship, he will leave.
And, as someone whose parents stayed together far too long "for the sake of the kids," let me just tell you other unhappy children of divorce, the grass isn't always greener.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:06 AM on January 4, 2006
It's a two way street, and if she flat out refuses to get help with her problems, how can he "work" at keeping the marriage together?
I, personally, can't even imagine being in a relationship with no intimacy. We're not just talking "long walks on the beach" as someone said- this woman doesn't even want to have sex with her husband. We can all be prudes and pretend otherwise, but the reality is that physical intimacy is a big part of a normal marriage.
These kids are going to learn how relationships work by observing their parents. If they can tell that their father is unhappy, and that their parents never hug or kiss, they could be in for many years of screwed up relationships themselves.
As much as ultimatums suck, I think the OP should really be honest with her. Tell her he's unhappy, tell her exactly why, and say if she doesn't get therapy and make some kind of effort to have a normal and healthy married relationship, he will leave.
And, as someone whose parents stayed together far too long "for the sake of the kids," let me just tell you other unhappy children of divorce, the grass isn't always greener.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:06 AM on January 4, 2006
I was going to suggest something like gaspode did. It seems like things would work out for the best if you and your wife stayed in the same house, but you saw other people. It seems as though she has some issues with her past that, barring counselling, she will likely never get over. It really doesn't seem like an ideal solution for you to split up your home just for the lack of intimacy that you crave.
posted by antifuse at 9:09 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by antifuse at 9:09 AM on January 4, 2006
Above all, do whatever you can to keep your relationship with your wife civil. I don't think anything about divorce is harder on kids than being in the middle of parents with a contentious relationship.
posted by Carbolic at 9:27 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by Carbolic at 9:27 AM on January 4, 2006
I have to say you two need to put the kids first.
Before you do anything drastic go get counseling for yourself.
posted by konolia at 9:54 AM on January 4, 2006
Before you do anything drastic go get counseling for yourself.
posted by konolia at 9:54 AM on January 4, 2006
I'm late to the party - I was going to go down the same lines as gaspode and antifuse with regards to the divorce issue. It's untraditional to go from spouses to roommates but you don't owe anyone a traditional solution.
Outside the divorce issue, you can't just expect her to go get counseling and make things the way you'd like them while you sit home. It's impossible to tell from a one-post brief description, but your retelling makes it sound like you said "This isn't working. You should go get help." If you're at all interested in making things work out, declare your intention to go to marriage counseling and go, even if she won't.
Hell, go even if you're not interested in working things out in the marriage. I've yet to hear a person say they went into counseling because everything was cool and then the therapy make it all go to shit.
posted by phearlez at 9:56 AM on January 4, 2006
Outside the divorce issue, you can't just expect her to go get counseling and make things the way you'd like them while you sit home. It's impossible to tell from a one-post brief description, but your retelling makes it sound like you said "This isn't working. You should go get help." If you're at all interested in making things work out, declare your intention to go to marriage counseling and go, even if she won't.
Hell, go even if you're not interested in working things out in the marriage. I've yet to hear a person say they went into counseling because everything was cool and then the therapy make it all go to shit.
posted by phearlez at 9:56 AM on January 4, 2006
It seems like things would work out for the best if you and your wife stayed in the same house, but you saw other people.
Sorry, but that sounds like a recipe for disaster for the "other people" involved. Make a clean break if you're going to make it.
posted by footnote at 9:57 AM on January 4, 2006
Sorry, but that sounds like a recipe for disaster for the "other people" involved. Make a clean break if you're going to make it.
posted by footnote at 9:57 AM on January 4, 2006
the OP has tried working at it, and his wife refuses to cooperate.
Well, he didn't mention counseling for himself, just that he urged her to get some for herself. It seems to me and to others here that going to a counselor by himself might be a useful step towards making things work. Getting some therapy for himself, even though he might think it's not fair because he's not the one with all the massive problems, etc., might go a long way towards showing the wife that he's willing to try to make things better. It's possible that she might even decide to join him, although he shouldn't expect or hope for this -- he should do it for himself and for the kids.
posted by Gator at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2006
Well, he didn't mention counseling for himself, just that he urged her to get some for herself. It seems to me and to others here that going to a counselor by himself might be a useful step towards making things work. Getting some therapy for himself, even though he might think it's not fair because he's not the one with all the massive problems, etc., might go a long way towards showing the wife that he's willing to try to make things better. It's possible that she might even decide to join him, although he shouldn't expect or hope for this -- he should do it for himself and for the kids.
posted by Gator at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2006
Footnote, there are lots of people who are perfectly happy this way. Many of them are married to other people with intimacy issues, too. The problem is the cultural and societal cognitive dissonance about this sort of lifestyle.
Gator is giving good advice, too.
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:08 AM on January 4, 2006
Gator is giving good advice, too.
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:08 AM on January 4, 2006
there are lots of people who are perfectly happy this way
And there are lots of other people made terribly unhappy this way. What happens if the "other person" ends up wanting more? How can you guarantee that they won't, no matter what preconditions you put on the relationship? Why would the OP's need for intimacy be fulfilled by this kind of arrangement? What about the balance of power with his wife, who may not be looking for "other people" herself?
Agreed that tradition need not take precedence; but sometimes, tradition represents common sense that should be paid attention to.
posted by footnote at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2006
And there are lots of other people made terribly unhappy this way. What happens if the "other person" ends up wanting more? How can you guarantee that they won't, no matter what preconditions you put on the relationship? Why would the OP's need for intimacy be fulfilled by this kind of arrangement? What about the balance of power with his wife, who may not be looking for "other people" herself?
Agreed that tradition need not take precedence; but sometimes, tradition represents common sense that should be paid attention to.
posted by footnote at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2006
Would you rather be alone than be with your wife? If not, don't leave.
Otherwise rational people tend to get all mystical about how there's "someone for everyone" out there, but that isn't true. Leaving your wife (who's your best friend and, as you say, a wonderful co-parent) could easily leave you with less intimacy in your life. Would that be acceptable to you? I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying that you won't necessarily find a better deal. Intimacy in life is not a given.
Even if your wife won't consider counselling for herself, it sounds like you're unhappy and uncertain enough to benefit from some of your own. And might your wife be willing to consider couples counselling for the two of you?
posted by tangerine at 10:14 AM on January 4, 2006
Otherwise rational people tend to get all mystical about how there's "someone for everyone" out there, but that isn't true. Leaving your wife (who's your best friend and, as you say, a wonderful co-parent) could easily leave you with less intimacy in your life. Would that be acceptable to you? I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying that you won't necessarily find a better deal. Intimacy in life is not a given.
Even if your wife won't consider counselling for herself, it sounds like you're unhappy and uncertain enough to benefit from some of your own. And might your wife be willing to consider couples counselling for the two of you?
posted by tangerine at 10:14 AM on January 4, 2006
It's merely an option. OP and his wife seem HIGHLY motivated to stay together for the sake of the kids, which encourages respondents to offer untraditional options in their replies.
Polyamorous relationships and the like have developed their own cultures over the last few decades - cultures and communities that address issues like 'wanting more' and the like in context.
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:18 AM on January 4, 2006
Polyamorous relationships and the like have developed their own cultures over the last few decades - cultures and communities that address issues like 'wanting more' and the like in context.
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:18 AM on January 4, 2006
There's nothing polyamorous about one member of the couple saying "I'm going to get me some on the side because you're not giving it to me." Sorry. That's a recipe for disaster, polyamorous "culture" nonwithstanding.
posted by footnote at 10:20 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by footnote at 10:20 AM on January 4, 2006
It doesn't work that way. It works only with knowledge and actual consent.
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:30 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:30 AM on January 4, 2006
Divorce is tough on kids. If both of you work really hard at coparenting, you can reduce the impact. Most people look at the short term implications. It will help to plan for the long term implications. You're likely to look for someone new, and to remarry. It has a huge impact.
Find classes for parents who are divorcing, and look for a support group for kids whose parents are divorced/divorcing. Try to set money aside for future child support, in case you have financial hardship someday. Commit to staying in the same town. Plan ahead for the next 14 years, until the younger child graduates from high school.
If you can repair your marriage, do. It's worth it.
posted by theora55 at 10:34 AM on January 4, 2006
Find classes for parents who are divorcing, and look for a support group for kids whose parents are divorced/divorcing. Try to set money aside for future child support, in case you have financial hardship someday. Commit to staying in the same town. Plan ahead for the next 14 years, until the younger child graduates from high school.
If you can repair your marriage, do. It's worth it.
posted by theora55 at 10:34 AM on January 4, 2006
I agree with the marriage counseling or therapy for yourself advice. You should really try that first, what do you have to lose?
This thread lists lots of books that might be helpful.
posted by davar at 10:35 AM on January 4, 2006
This thread lists lots of books that might be helpful.
posted by davar at 10:35 AM on January 4, 2006
If anon and his wife were childless, I'd be less uncomfortable suggesting that (seeing other people while still cohabitating) as a solution (but if they were childless, he might not even have needed to ask this question).
I think Kellydamnit made a good point about the kids picking up on how relationships work by observing their parents. While it's probably not good for that observed behavior to be a total absense of intimacy, it might be even worse for the kids to get the idea that daddy having a girlfriend while still living with mommy is a good idea. As gaspode said, it's not a solution that works for everybody, and my opinion is that these kids are too young to understand it.
posted by Gator at 10:37 AM on January 4, 2006
I think Kellydamnit made a good point about the kids picking up on how relationships work by observing their parents. While it's probably not good for that observed behavior to be a total absense of intimacy, it might be even worse for the kids to get the idea that daddy having a girlfriend while still living with mommy is a good idea. As gaspode said, it's not a solution that works for everybody, and my opinion is that these kids are too young to understand it.
posted by Gator at 10:37 AM on January 4, 2006
I'm going to clarify my comments about kids becoming less trusting as things become bad. You will try your absolute damndest (I know) to keep things all roses and my little pony for your kids, but they will know. Whatever path you and your wife take, the kids will be able to tell that things are not "Like other people's parents" and they will have emotions about this knowledge. They will think things that they may know you do not want them to think. They will not (necessarily want to) share these things with you. You can't make them share. Childhood is hard enough, it's my opinion that most kids/teenagers would benefit from an impartial third party. I think it ought to be mandatory for kids to have some kind of therapy available before, during and after divorce.
I'd also like to address that from what you've stated, you are the one with the problem. She doesn't want to have sex, and doesn't want to work toward becoming more comfortable with these intimate memories. Only she gets to decide that she needs counseling, much like alcoholics are the only people who can decide that they need to dry out.
I told her she needed counseling. We've discussed this a few times since (just the counseling aspect because I am NOT going to attempt to work the complexities of her situation out, I am not qualified and I have no frame of reference anyway). Still no counseling.
You seem to be saying that you won't listen to her talk about whatever it was that happened to her. Having had some awful stuff happen to me, I can say that I wouldn't stick around with someone who wouldn't listen to those stories, in whatever context I felt they needed to be told. But I also wouldn't stick around in a context where I was being required to tell these stories. (I once left a shrink appointment that I had made to discuss some school issues when the shrink refused to drop the topic of the check mark I made next to rape, so I can see her reluctance to look for professional help, too)
posted by bilabial at 10:41 AM on January 4, 2006
I'd also like to address that from what you've stated, you are the one with the problem. She doesn't want to have sex, and doesn't want to work toward becoming more comfortable with these intimate memories. Only she gets to decide that she needs counseling, much like alcoholics are the only people who can decide that they need to dry out.
I told her she needed counseling. We've discussed this a few times since (just the counseling aspect because I am NOT going to attempt to work the complexities of her situation out, I am not qualified and I have no frame of reference anyway). Still no counseling.
You seem to be saying that you won't listen to her talk about whatever it was that happened to her. Having had some awful stuff happen to me, I can say that I wouldn't stick around with someone who wouldn't listen to those stories, in whatever context I felt they needed to be told. But I also wouldn't stick around in a context where I was being required to tell these stories. (I once left a shrink appointment that I had made to discuss some school issues when the shrink refused to drop the topic of the check mark I made next to rape, so I can see her reluctance to look for professional help, too)
posted by bilabial at 10:41 AM on January 4, 2006
It doesn't work that way. It works only with knowledge and actual consent.
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:30 AM PST on January 4 [!]
You can't knowingly consent to something so inherently unpredictable and emotional as this -- there's no way to tell in advance how you'll feel. And then once you do it, you can't go backwards and undo it. Not worth it.
posted by footnote at 11:00 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by By The Grace of God at 10:30 AM PST on January 4 [!]
You can't knowingly consent to something so inherently unpredictable and emotional as this -- there's no way to tell in advance how you'll feel. And then once you do it, you can't go backwards and undo it. Not worth it.
posted by footnote at 11:00 AM on January 4, 2006
I have an uncle and aunt who are divorced. They have two children. My uncle eventually remarried. All three of them, plus their now-grown children, come to all family weddings, holiday parties, etc. When people ask them what happened they describe your situation: best of friends, but no "spark" and no intamacy. So it can be done. There is no reason divorce always has to be nasty.
Of course, it sounds like from the question you haven't discussed this with your spouse, so maybe it will not be so smooth. Or, maybe, bringing up divorce will help make her want to work on the issues. You never know.
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:01 AM on January 4, 2006
Of course, it sounds like from the question you haven't discussed this with your spouse, so maybe it will not be so smooth. Or, maybe, bringing up divorce will help make her want to work on the issues. You never know.
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:01 AM on January 4, 2006
Anon, you can write me if you want, and I won't tell. Promise. I know that intimacy ain't just sex (we had lots of sex, but she wouldn't kiss me), and I know that midlife crises can be very good things.
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:28 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:28 AM on January 4, 2006
If there were no children involved, I'd say go for it. I'll second (and third) every other person here whose parents divorced when they were children---it's fabulously awful. The shuttling back and forth. Keeping one parent's secrets as not to hurt the other parent. Pulled at both ends by love and loyalty to each. It is devastating. No way around it.
If we want marriage to survive as an institution, we're going to have to do better than busting one up because it's "devoid of intimacy." How will that explanation play out to your kids when they're old enough to understand what it means?
I am not slavishly attached to the idea of marriage; as a sidenote, my own spouse was severely injured 3 years ago and was left both blind and quadriplegic. So---I know something about intimacy (the physical kind, at least) being yanked out from under you.
Stepping away from the legal bonds of marriage for a minute, how about considering your emotional bond and interconnectedness with the woman with whom you fathered two children? How is it that only she should seek counseling? My husband's injuries are my concern as well because our lives are intertwined. Not to mention I'd feel like a slimeball to discard him just because he's fallen on hard times. Similarly, how are your wife's childhood sexual experiences only her problem? Don't you love her enough to work through it with her?
It's your decision, of course. I just always think of the bigger picture. I want to be able to respect myself, always, and model honorable, loving behavior for my children. It is not hard to be an 'awesome' parent to a 3 or 4 year old. When the kids are older, you'll have tough questions to navigate. Just make sure you're OK with explaining why you upended their home.
posted by DawnSimulator at 11:44 AM on January 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
If we want marriage to survive as an institution, we're going to have to do better than busting one up because it's "devoid of intimacy." How will that explanation play out to your kids when they're old enough to understand what it means?
I am not slavishly attached to the idea of marriage; as a sidenote, my own spouse was severely injured 3 years ago and was left both blind and quadriplegic. So---I know something about intimacy (the physical kind, at least) being yanked out from under you.
Stepping away from the legal bonds of marriage for a minute, how about considering your emotional bond and interconnectedness with the woman with whom you fathered two children? How is it that only she should seek counseling? My husband's injuries are my concern as well because our lives are intertwined. Not to mention I'd feel like a slimeball to discard him just because he's fallen on hard times. Similarly, how are your wife's childhood sexual experiences only her problem? Don't you love her enough to work through it with her?
It's your decision, of course. I just always think of the bigger picture. I want to be able to respect myself, always, and model honorable, loving behavior for my children. It is not hard to be an 'awesome' parent to a 3 or 4 year old. When the kids are older, you'll have tough questions to navigate. Just make sure you're OK with explaining why you upended their home.
posted by DawnSimulator at 11:44 AM on January 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
wow, Dawn, you kick ass for contributing your answer. AskMe rocks :)
posted by By The Grace of God at 11:48 AM on January 4, 2006
posted by By The Grace of God at 11:48 AM on January 4, 2006
I was in the same boat as you. Except the friends part. No intimacy, no friendship, by the end it was just two roommates who didn't like each other very much, raising children together. I have two children (3 and 5 now).
To all those who say that parents should stay together for the kids, walk a mile in my shoes, and then talk to me again. No love, no one who wants to touch you. I had to believe I deserved that. I tried to suggest counseling as well (over and over and over), she wasn't interested, "It's your problem!"
She was right, it was. So I divorced her.
It will hurt the kids--a lot. It will hurt you even worse. Not seeing my kids everyday is hard. It hurts even two years later, it hurts dropping them off in the mornings. It hurts when I call every night to say goodnight. It hurts looking at their picture, knowing I won't see them for two more days. ( We have joint custody. )
My ex strongly dislikes me now (big surprise). Every conversation that there is a disagreement ends with her saying, "You started all this", and I did.
Did I do the right thing? Will you? There is no right answer. I think I did, and that's all I can do.
posted by patrickje at 11:58 AM on January 4, 2006
To all those who say that parents should stay together for the kids, walk a mile in my shoes, and then talk to me again. No love, no one who wants to touch you. I had to believe I deserved that. I tried to suggest counseling as well (over and over and over), she wasn't interested, "It's your problem!"
She was right, it was. So I divorced her.
It will hurt the kids--a lot. It will hurt you even worse. Not seeing my kids everyday is hard. It hurts even two years later, it hurts dropping them off in the mornings. It hurts when I call every night to say goodnight. It hurts looking at their picture, knowing I won't see them for two more days. ( We have joint custody. )
My ex strongly dislikes me now (big surprise). Every conversation that there is a disagreement ends with her saying, "You started all this", and I did.
Did I do the right thing? Will you? There is no right answer. I think I did, and that's all I can do.
posted by patrickje at 11:58 AM on January 4, 2006
My parents stayed together for "the kids"... quite honestly, I would have preferred being in a single parent household, seeing the other parent on weekends. It was obvious that there was something missing in my parents' relationship. I knew they weren't happy, my brothers knew they weren't happy. So it was like a big game of charade.
For seventeen fucking years.
A huge - and I mean ginormous - reason I do not get along with my parents today is because I don't respect them. I really don't. They set a very bad example for me, one that I'm trying to deal with in my own right. Now that they're divorced, it's soooo much better on us as a whole. I know my mother is happy with her new life, and my father is happy with his. And that makes me happy. I'm still working through my own issues of not respecting them.
A friend of mine has been in a marriage for 9 years, has 2 kids under 8. He's not happy at all. Same situation you're in - he's friendly with his wife, and he loves her, but they're not intimate at all. And he swears up and down that he will never leave his wife because he doesn't want his kids to grow up without him. He's tried counselling on his own, she refuses to go - instead saying that he "just doesn't understand" her (they've been together a total of 16 years). The time between sexual "occasions" with his wife has gone from weeks to months to years. I'm not saying it's all her fault... but he's the one in counselling for over 3 years now, not her. To me, it seems like she just has a bulk of excuses and changes them out every so often to suit her needs.
I'd want to see my parents happy and apart, instead of "not quite right" and together. His current hobby? Counting down until the day his youngest son turns 18 so he can get a divorce.
Please don't be like them.
posted by damnjezebel at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2006
For seventeen fucking years.
A huge - and I mean ginormous - reason I do not get along with my parents today is because I don't respect them. I really don't. They set a very bad example for me, one that I'm trying to deal with in my own right. Now that they're divorced, it's soooo much better on us as a whole. I know my mother is happy with her new life, and my father is happy with his. And that makes me happy. I'm still working through my own issues of not respecting them.
A friend of mine has been in a marriage for 9 years, has 2 kids under 8. He's not happy at all. Same situation you're in - he's friendly with his wife, and he loves her, but they're not intimate at all. And he swears up and down that he will never leave his wife because he doesn't want his kids to grow up without him. He's tried counselling on his own, she refuses to go - instead saying that he "just doesn't understand" her (they've been together a total of 16 years). The time between sexual "occasions" with his wife has gone from weeks to months to years. I'm not saying it's all her fault... but he's the one in counselling for over 3 years now, not her. To me, it seems like she just has a bulk of excuses and changes them out every so often to suit her needs.
I'd want to see my parents happy and apart, instead of "not quite right" and together. His current hobby? Counting down until the day his youngest son turns 18 so he can get a divorce.
Please don't be like them.
posted by damnjezebel at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2006
I think it's worth noting that if you WOULD rather be alone than be married to her, then you may be in the right place to consider that a viable solution.
posted by desuetude at 2:32 PM on January 4, 2006
posted by desuetude at 2:32 PM on January 4, 2006
I would say your first step is to talk to a lawyer. With two children, you need to know how much child support is going to cost and if you can maintain a life with that bill every month. It can be a real eye-opener.
posted by spslsausse at 3:12 PM on January 4, 2006
posted by spslsausse at 3:12 PM on January 4, 2006
I 'm sure there are better marriages, but there are many worse. At least you are friends, and the kids are much better off. You probably are too and won't know what you have until it's gone. Go for the counseling and try to make what you have into somethat that you're happier with. Just remember: Marriage is grand. Divorce is a hundred grand!
posted by JamesMessick at 6:22 PM on January 4, 2006
posted by JamesMessick at 6:22 PM on January 4, 2006
Lets get a few things straight before I go on and give advice. I am the product of a divorce. I'll explain a bit more later.
First thing to consider, before anything else, is not once in your question did you state that you indeed love this woman. You really need to think about that, because if you MUST have love in a relationship, and you don't love her, then any advice from your question here is moot. Also, that applies to if she must have love from you, which is totally in her court.
Therapy, Therapy, Therapy! Go get couples Therapy, now. It sounds like you have done everything right so far. I normally suggest atleast a 2 year courting/dating period before you even deal with marriage possibilities, which you've followed. I also perfer a good 2-4 year period after marriage before you start with the baby making, which you've also done.
It sounds like you have a great enviroment with the kids. The small things of intamacy are actually important for the kids to see, but in the long run, it won't do them a huge amount of harm to not see them. Lots of parents don't feel totally comfortable doing little intimate gestures around the kids, and the kids still grow up to be normal. Lots of parents also feel that little intimate things should be left to quiet times without the kids, which makes those intimate things feel more special to them. So right now, you certainly arn't doing anything wrong from the children's perspective.
Therapy can help alot. And sometimes it just doesn't work. It didn't do much for my parents besides delay the situation. I have no idea if they did any post-divorce sessions. However, if she's having issues with sex due to some childhood problems, she NEEDS therapy. She will need therapy to have a healthy relationship, with or without you. It would be better for her if she did that with you. This is actually from personal experince, I dated a girl who was 'cold' in bed, and after a breakup (not due to that) and several years, she got therapy. I've dated her since, and she's SOOO much different and better with intamcy, sex, and just in general.
The good news is, in Couples Therapy, this subject will most likely come up, and the Therapist will immediatly recommend individual therapy with her to address this topic, and recommend that you take a support role in her dealing with that subject.
If this is not dealt with, she probably won't be totally happy in a relationship after the divorce, so being a friend, and a husband, you might as well take care of it now as a process of helping the relationship. As a continued friend after the divorce, when she has to go through this, you'll probably be called upon for support anyway.
So what do you do if Therapy doesn't work, or if she refuses, and the divorce happens:
First, seperate. See other people, encourage her to do the same. Get an apartment or something. Perhaps her lack of you in her life will encourage her to try Therapy (if she refused).
The important thing with your kids, is don't move out of town. And make sure she doesn't. If she does, move with her. The majority of the time the female gets the 'primary' spot in the kids lives, and the majority of time the state will already have a definition as to how custody works. Around here for the non-primary, it's basically every other Thursday Night, and every other weekend. Or something similar. Alot of times when lawyers get involved, it simply defaults to that, and if your ex wants to give you more time, she can. And at any point in time, she can then take that more time away and just give you what the law allows. Not good for you, horrible for the kids. Especially not good for Child Support, as you'll be basically be paying for Babysitting/food costs, AND providing babysitting/food costs for the additional time you have them. (Have a friend in this problem, and while money is no object when it comes to time with your kids, it sure stinks to have to budget, save, and skip meals just to go to one movie with friends every 6 months.)
Holidays are generally every other, and you switch each year. So you'll only get Christmas with them every other year. Bleh.
And if you do move out of town, or she does, you'll basically see your time go to nothing once the kids start school, and especially when they get old enough to participate in sports and other activities that takes their weekend time up.
While you and your wife are friends now, were friends before, and will probably be friends after the Divorce, don't count on it forever. She may find some guy that you don't like, doesn't like you, and she's afraid to be alone again, so she does whatever he says. Which means, again, your time with the kids may go down to only what the law requires. Of course, she may not. But don't brainwash yourself into thinking that things will never go wrong and you'll always be friends and the kids will always come first before anything else between you. Life is a complicated thing, and assumptions rarely work out.
All of that is not only bad for you, but it's super bad for the kids. You as an adult can work past most issues, though you won't enjoy it one bit. But the kids simply will NOT understand, until they get much, much older. Even then, they'll still have problems that may or may not require therapy.
So, as a child that dealt with a divorce, I highly suggest you do everything you can to make things work.
And most important, if you do divorce, and she at any point says 'lets not bother with lawyers and just do this ourselves', immediatly go get a lawyer. Because most likely, that's what she has already done, or is planning, and you'll be the underdog and get stuck in a divorce contract that totally takes advantage of you, and only years and lots of money will ever change it.
Quick Aside: My parents divorced when I was entering 4th grade. Lived in the same town, switched months. They were friends, and besides us kids not understanding (I'm the youngest of 3), things went great until a Step-Mother entered, and then everything went very bad. Parents were no longer friends, basically became enemies (not due to jealousy or anything), and as a result, my mother and two of us kids (willingly) moved 2,000 miles away.
It's a long, long story which I wont get into much detail. But as the years go by (I'm 28 now), I realize that it was a normal situation that just went crazy because sometimes life throws curveballs. I love my mother and father very much, but I havn't seen my father in roughly 10 years, and I last spoke to him on the phone 2 years ago.
And I imagine I'll still be dealing with personal issues from my childhood for atleast another 10 years to come. Despite that, I'm still a relativly normal person, and havn't required Therapy. I'm sure it would do me some good though. ;)
Keep in mind that your situation will probably never come to anything similar to this. I hope it certainlly doesn't. Just keep in mind that a well intentioned divorce in 6 months doesn't mean a well intentioned friendship between you and your X in 10 years time. You'll still have to deal with her and her choices on a daily basis for the next 15 years.
posted by Phynix at 6:55 PM on January 5, 2006
First thing to consider, before anything else, is not once in your question did you state that you indeed love this woman. You really need to think about that, because if you MUST have love in a relationship, and you don't love her, then any advice from your question here is moot. Also, that applies to if she must have love from you, which is totally in her court.
Therapy, Therapy, Therapy! Go get couples Therapy, now. It sounds like you have done everything right so far. I normally suggest atleast a 2 year courting/dating period before you even deal with marriage possibilities, which you've followed. I also perfer a good 2-4 year period after marriage before you start with the baby making, which you've also done.
It sounds like you have a great enviroment with the kids. The small things of intamacy are actually important for the kids to see, but in the long run, it won't do them a huge amount of harm to not see them. Lots of parents don't feel totally comfortable doing little intimate gestures around the kids, and the kids still grow up to be normal. Lots of parents also feel that little intimate things should be left to quiet times without the kids, which makes those intimate things feel more special to them. So right now, you certainly arn't doing anything wrong from the children's perspective.
Therapy can help alot. And sometimes it just doesn't work. It didn't do much for my parents besides delay the situation. I have no idea if they did any post-divorce sessions. However, if she's having issues with sex due to some childhood problems, she NEEDS therapy. She will need therapy to have a healthy relationship, with or without you. It would be better for her if she did that with you. This is actually from personal experince, I dated a girl who was 'cold' in bed, and after a breakup (not due to that) and several years, she got therapy. I've dated her since, and she's SOOO much different and better with intamcy, sex, and just in general.
The good news is, in Couples Therapy, this subject will most likely come up, and the Therapist will immediatly recommend individual therapy with her to address this topic, and recommend that you take a support role in her dealing with that subject.
If this is not dealt with, she probably won't be totally happy in a relationship after the divorce, so being a friend, and a husband, you might as well take care of it now as a process of helping the relationship. As a continued friend after the divorce, when she has to go through this, you'll probably be called upon for support anyway.
So what do you do if Therapy doesn't work, or if she refuses, and the divorce happens:
First, seperate. See other people, encourage her to do the same. Get an apartment or something. Perhaps her lack of you in her life will encourage her to try Therapy (if she refused).
The important thing with your kids, is don't move out of town. And make sure she doesn't. If she does, move with her. The majority of the time the female gets the 'primary' spot in the kids lives, and the majority of time the state will already have a definition as to how custody works. Around here for the non-primary, it's basically every other Thursday Night, and every other weekend. Or something similar. Alot of times when lawyers get involved, it simply defaults to that, and if your ex wants to give you more time, she can. And at any point in time, she can then take that more time away and just give you what the law allows. Not good for you, horrible for the kids. Especially not good for Child Support, as you'll be basically be paying for Babysitting/food costs, AND providing babysitting/food costs for the additional time you have them. (Have a friend in this problem, and while money is no object when it comes to time with your kids, it sure stinks to have to budget, save, and skip meals just to go to one movie with friends every 6 months.)
Holidays are generally every other, and you switch each year. So you'll only get Christmas with them every other year. Bleh.
And if you do move out of town, or she does, you'll basically see your time go to nothing once the kids start school, and especially when they get old enough to participate in sports and other activities that takes their weekend time up.
While you and your wife are friends now, were friends before, and will probably be friends after the Divorce, don't count on it forever. She may find some guy that you don't like, doesn't like you, and she's afraid to be alone again, so she does whatever he says. Which means, again, your time with the kids may go down to only what the law requires. Of course, she may not. But don't brainwash yourself into thinking that things will never go wrong and you'll always be friends and the kids will always come first before anything else between you. Life is a complicated thing, and assumptions rarely work out.
All of that is not only bad for you, but it's super bad for the kids. You as an adult can work past most issues, though you won't enjoy it one bit. But the kids simply will NOT understand, until they get much, much older. Even then, they'll still have problems that may or may not require therapy.
So, as a child that dealt with a divorce, I highly suggest you do everything you can to make things work.
And most important, if you do divorce, and she at any point says 'lets not bother with lawyers and just do this ourselves', immediatly go get a lawyer. Because most likely, that's what she has already done, or is planning, and you'll be the underdog and get stuck in a divorce contract that totally takes advantage of you, and only years and lots of money will ever change it.
Quick Aside: My parents divorced when I was entering 4th grade. Lived in the same town, switched months. They were friends, and besides us kids not understanding (I'm the youngest of 3), things went great until a Step-Mother entered, and then everything went very bad. Parents were no longer friends, basically became enemies (not due to jealousy or anything), and as a result, my mother and two of us kids (willingly) moved 2,000 miles away.
It's a long, long story which I wont get into much detail. But as the years go by (I'm 28 now), I realize that it was a normal situation that just went crazy because sometimes life throws curveballs. I love my mother and father very much, but I havn't seen my father in roughly 10 years, and I last spoke to him on the phone 2 years ago.
And I imagine I'll still be dealing with personal issues from my childhood for atleast another 10 years to come. Despite that, I'm still a relativly normal person, and havn't required Therapy. I'm sure it would do me some good though. ;)
Keep in mind that your situation will probably never come to anything similar to this. I hope it certainlly doesn't. Just keep in mind that a well intentioned divorce in 6 months doesn't mean a well intentioned friendship between you and your X in 10 years time. You'll still have to deal with her and her choices on a daily basis for the next 15 years.
posted by Phynix at 6:55 PM on January 5, 2006
My parents divorced, my mom did it because she thought it would be good for me and my sister, and she was right. My father would have made a horrible parent. I would have been far worse off if she'd stayed with him. He's a nice enough guy, but he's a manipulative, dishonest asshole. Obviously you don't have this problem here, and my experience isn't very relevant.
That said, I think the unwritten assumption here is that you owe your kids everything, and that you're whole life should be dedicated to them. My feeling is adults are too quick to blame their parents for all their problems.
On the other hand, who's to say you'll find this true intimacy? It won't be that easy.
I agree with these other people who think you should try counseling for yourself. If you do it, then your wife might be more willing to try it, at the very least.
posted by delmoi at 12:22 PM on January 7, 2006
That said, I think the unwritten assumption here is that you owe your kids everything, and that you're whole life should be dedicated to them. My feeling is adults are too quick to blame their parents for all their problems.
On the other hand, who's to say you'll find this true intimacy? It won't be that easy.
I agree with these other people who think you should try counseling for yourself. If you do it, then your wife might be more willing to try it, at the very least.
posted by delmoi at 12:22 PM on January 7, 2006
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posted by leapingsheep at 8:02 AM on January 4, 2006