It seems unhealthy to me, but what do I know
August 17, 2016 3:33 AM Subscribe
Some questions about drinking, from someone without context.
Alcohol is a tricky subject in my relationship with my partner. We come from opposite backgrounds and I don’t know if I’m being reasonable or overly sensitive.
About us: We are both 40+, independent homeowners, successful careers, together 2 years, previously divorced with two kids each. We’re fully committed, very happy, building a future together. Do not live together yet.
Our backgrounds:
Me: I was raised Muslim and there was no drinking in our household, though my parents were not uber-conservative. I did the normal amount of high school/college drinking but then I married a Muslim and stopped drinking altogether for 16 years. Since divorcing my spouse (and leaving religion) a couple years ago, I've started drinking a little again occasionally. This is entirely my choice and I am happy about it, but drinking socially as an adult is new to me and I feel like there are many unspoken rules around it.
Him: He grew up surrounded by drinkers; his mother was an alcoholic. He worked in bars and restaurants through his twenties and partook in a lot of heavy drinking on a regular basis; it was a big part of the culture and he has many good memories of festive nights. He’s no longer part of that culture and many years ago switched to more “refined” drinking – wine, scotch, good beer. He is somewhat concerned about following in his mother’s footsteps. At the same time, he compares himself to her and the many people in his life who drank a lot more, so he feels he’s fine. I don’t think he is, but because of my limited exposure to alcohol, he says I’m not the best judge.
Here are some situations I have difficulty with:
1. He very much associates alcohol with good times. A celebration feels incomplete for him without a drink. If we’re at a nicer restaurant, I feel a bit of pressure to order a glass of wine even if I don’t want one, because classy people have a glass of wine with a nice dinner. That’s one of the unspoken rules I’m talking about. If I don’t have a drink, I feel like I’m A) bringing down the festive atmosphere and B) embarrassing him somewhat, for not following social norms. Is this normal? Do others feel this way?
[My reasons for not drinking: I neither enjoy the taste nor feel any effects (it takes me at least two drinks to start feeling anything), so for me it’s a waste of both calories and money to order a glass of wine. That’s my very practical approach. But I feel like I’m committing a social faux pas – like going to a dance and then not dancing.]
2. He lives by himself and is an introvert, so most of his evenings are spent (happily) alone at home. He’s got a challenging job that he loves, and when he comes home, he likes to relax. Most nights he’ll have a glass or two of wine. About one evening a week, he’ll have a whole bottle and possibly a dram or two of scotch on top of that. On those nights, he gets proper drunk. We’ve both learned that we should just not have conversations on nights like that; they never end well. He becomes sarcastic, biting, overblown. Our rule now is that if we're having a phone or text conversation and he’s had more than 2 drinks, he has to tell me. This was his idea. It works, in the sense that it avoids arguments, but the fact that the rule exists is problematic to me.
Also, he has his 8-year-old twins overnight on the weekends, and will occasionally get drunk like this after they go to sleep. Is this an ok thing for single parents to do? It’s a weekend and the kids are safe in bed, but it concerns me because if something happens he’s the only adult in the house.
Now here is his point of view. His drinking is ok because:
1) he’s not using alcohol as a crutch; the drinking isn’t driven by some deep unhappiness. He drinks because he's feeling festive.
2) he doesn’t crave alcohol in the morning or get the shakes if he doesn’t drink; he can easily go without alcohol any night (which is true; most nights that we’re home together or out doing stuff he doesn’t drink at all).
3) his drinking doesn’t affect his job (he’s a high performer); he’s in great health; he rarely gets hungover
4) he drinks safely at home and doesn't do risky things like drive
I can’t really argue with any of the above points; they’re all true. He fully agrees that it’s not ok for alcohol to cause problems between us (which it has in the past; we only argue when he’s been drinking). After our last big argument about 4 months ago, he stated if it happened again, he would stop drinking altogether. He’s been very careful since then…but I still feel like he has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Do I have reason to be concerned or are we just two people with different perspectives?
Alcohol is a tricky subject in my relationship with my partner. We come from opposite backgrounds and I don’t know if I’m being reasonable or overly sensitive.
About us: We are both 40+, independent homeowners, successful careers, together 2 years, previously divorced with two kids each. We’re fully committed, very happy, building a future together. Do not live together yet.
Our backgrounds:
Me: I was raised Muslim and there was no drinking in our household, though my parents were not uber-conservative. I did the normal amount of high school/college drinking but then I married a Muslim and stopped drinking altogether for 16 years. Since divorcing my spouse (and leaving religion) a couple years ago, I've started drinking a little again occasionally. This is entirely my choice and I am happy about it, but drinking socially as an adult is new to me and I feel like there are many unspoken rules around it.
Him: He grew up surrounded by drinkers; his mother was an alcoholic. He worked in bars and restaurants through his twenties and partook in a lot of heavy drinking on a regular basis; it was a big part of the culture and he has many good memories of festive nights. He’s no longer part of that culture and many years ago switched to more “refined” drinking – wine, scotch, good beer. He is somewhat concerned about following in his mother’s footsteps. At the same time, he compares himself to her and the many people in his life who drank a lot more, so he feels he’s fine. I don’t think he is, but because of my limited exposure to alcohol, he says I’m not the best judge.
Here are some situations I have difficulty with:
1. He very much associates alcohol with good times. A celebration feels incomplete for him without a drink. If we’re at a nicer restaurant, I feel a bit of pressure to order a glass of wine even if I don’t want one, because classy people have a glass of wine with a nice dinner. That’s one of the unspoken rules I’m talking about. If I don’t have a drink, I feel like I’m A) bringing down the festive atmosphere and B) embarrassing him somewhat, for not following social norms. Is this normal? Do others feel this way?
[My reasons for not drinking: I neither enjoy the taste nor feel any effects (it takes me at least two drinks to start feeling anything), so for me it’s a waste of both calories and money to order a glass of wine. That’s my very practical approach. But I feel like I’m committing a social faux pas – like going to a dance and then not dancing.]
2. He lives by himself and is an introvert, so most of his evenings are spent (happily) alone at home. He’s got a challenging job that he loves, and when he comes home, he likes to relax. Most nights he’ll have a glass or two of wine. About one evening a week, he’ll have a whole bottle and possibly a dram or two of scotch on top of that. On those nights, he gets proper drunk. We’ve both learned that we should just not have conversations on nights like that; they never end well. He becomes sarcastic, biting, overblown. Our rule now is that if we're having a phone or text conversation and he’s had more than 2 drinks, he has to tell me. This was his idea. It works, in the sense that it avoids arguments, but the fact that the rule exists is problematic to me.
Also, he has his 8-year-old twins overnight on the weekends, and will occasionally get drunk like this after they go to sleep. Is this an ok thing for single parents to do? It’s a weekend and the kids are safe in bed, but it concerns me because if something happens he’s the only adult in the house.
Now here is his point of view. His drinking is ok because:
1) he’s not using alcohol as a crutch; the drinking isn’t driven by some deep unhappiness. He drinks because he's feeling festive.
2) he doesn’t crave alcohol in the morning or get the shakes if he doesn’t drink; he can easily go without alcohol any night (which is true; most nights that we’re home together or out doing stuff he doesn’t drink at all).
3) his drinking doesn’t affect his job (he’s a high performer); he’s in great health; he rarely gets hungover
4) he drinks safely at home and doesn't do risky things like drive
I can’t really argue with any of the above points; they’re all true. He fully agrees that it’s not ok for alcohol to cause problems between us (which it has in the past; we only argue when he’s been drinking). After our last big argument about 4 months ago, he stated if it happened again, he would stop drinking altogether. He’s been very careful since then…but I still feel like he has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Do I have reason to be concerned or are we just two people with different perspectives?
> I feel a bit of pressure to order a glass of wine even if I don’t want one, because classy people have a glass of wine with a nice dinner. That’s one of the unspoken rules I’m talking about. If I don’t have a drink, I feel like I’m A) bringing down the festive atmosphere and B) embarrassing him somewhat, for not following social norms. Is this normal? Do others feel this way?
Others do feel this way. You do not mention overt "pressure" so it sounds like more of his disappointed reaction if you don't go along. Mature people, even those who drink regularly, will accept a simple "I choose not to" and let it go.
posted by yclipse at 4:06 AM on August 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
Others do feel this way. You do not mention overt "pressure" so it sounds like more of his disappointed reaction if you don't go along. Mature people, even those who drink regularly, will accept a simple "I choose not to" and let it go.
posted by yclipse at 4:06 AM on August 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
As I grow older and become increasingly sensitive to alcohol (Asian genes), drinking too much is no longer pleasurable. Even two glasses of wine can have very bad effect on me. I feel the social pressure to drink, but part of being mature is that you get to choose what you want to do, whatever other people might think. You don't want to drink? Don't drink. Just order what you want, and don't make a big deal of it either way.
As for the other question -- is he drinking too much? I personally would not stay with someone who drank that much. One glass, two glasses, two or three times a week, fine. But a bottle at night, once a week? I have a challenging job too, and I de-stress by going on a run or reading or play board games with friends. There surely are better hobbies and things to do in life. Why drink it away?
posted by moiraine at 4:12 AM on August 17, 2016
As for the other question -- is he drinking too much? I personally would not stay with someone who drank that much. One glass, two glasses, two or three times a week, fine. But a bottle at night, once a week? I have a challenging job too, and I de-stress by going on a run or reading or play board games with friends. There surely are better hobbies and things to do in life. Why drink it away?
posted by moiraine at 4:12 AM on August 17, 2016
Also, he has his 8-year-old twins overnight on the weekends, and will occasionally get drunk like this after they go to sleep. Is this an ok thing for single parents to do? It’s a weekend and the kids are safe in bed, but it concerns me because if something happens he’s the only adult in the house.
It's never OK to be drunk and in charge of kids. Never. No exceptions.
posted by james33 at 4:15 AM on August 17, 2016 [43 favorites]
It's never OK to be drunk and in charge of kids. Never. No exceptions.
posted by james33 at 4:15 AM on August 17, 2016 [43 favorites]
Best answer: My cultural background is more akin to your partner’s than yours. I was persuaded by my late wife to reduce my alcohol intake for the simple reason that she liked my company better when I was sober than when I was drunk (she drank too, but less frequently than me). I greatly enjoy both the taste and the effects of good booze, but I complied, if not without some reluctance at first, because she was very much more important to me than having a nice drink.
I imagine that his level of drinking is at least slightly unhealthy in itself, but, more to the point, it’s manifestly unhealthy for his relationship and partnership with you. It may not seem to him to be a crutch, but something one enjoys leaning on almost every day will become indistinguishable from a crutch in time. His point 2 might be the one to push back against in the first instance: if it’s so easy for him to go without alcohol for a day, why not do this easy thing more often, especially as it will make you feel better too?
posted by misteraitch at 4:17 AM on August 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
I imagine that his level of drinking is at least slightly unhealthy in itself, but, more to the point, it’s manifestly unhealthy for his relationship and partnership with you. It may not seem to him to be a crutch, but something one enjoys leaning on almost every day will become indistinguishable from a crutch in time. His point 2 might be the one to push back against in the first instance: if it’s so easy for him to go without alcohol for a day, why not do this easy thing more often, especially as it will make you feel better too?
posted by misteraitch at 4:17 AM on August 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
What country are you in? I ask 'cos you're asking questions that need to be answered within the context of a culture. Scattered thoughts follow.
I'm British, my mother had experience of alcoholism so I didn't grow up around it (glass of wine at Christmas level). I kinda binged when I reached my teenage years and my intake's slowly dropped off since then, though it's still my drug-of-choice.
My wife doesn't drink, and I'm in my 40s. My drinking's just withered away to once or twice a month, for both those reasons (the things we do together just aren't centred around alcohol - I'd probably miss it more if we were going to restaurants all the time).
However when I'm working away from home it upticks, because I'm bored and stressed. I personally consider drinking at home, alone, to relieve boredom or stress to be Not Good, and I try to keep a lid on that. Social drinking, in public, in a group, is much more acceptable to me. So "safely at home" is actually one of my personal warning flags. Drinking alone is not actually fun. So if he's not drinking for fun, and he claims it's not a crutch, why is he drinking? (IMO "to destress" is another way of saying "crutch", but there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's a useful tool as long as it doesn't get out of control. Current advice here is 14 units per week, spread over at least three days).
The sole-caregiver-while-drunk thing is, IMO, a big no-no. What if he has to drive to hospital? Apart from that... well, you have to look at the outcomes. And if drinking made me a belligerent drunk and mean to my wife, I think I'd probably knock it on the head altogether.
posted by Leon at 4:21 AM on August 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm British, my mother had experience of alcoholism so I didn't grow up around it (glass of wine at Christmas level). I kinda binged when I reached my teenage years and my intake's slowly dropped off since then, though it's still my drug-of-choice.
My wife doesn't drink, and I'm in my 40s. My drinking's just withered away to once or twice a month, for both those reasons (the things we do together just aren't centred around alcohol - I'd probably miss it more if we were going to restaurants all the time).
However when I'm working away from home it upticks, because I'm bored and stressed. I personally consider drinking at home, alone, to relieve boredom or stress to be Not Good, and I try to keep a lid on that. Social drinking, in public, in a group, is much more acceptable to me. So "safely at home" is actually one of my personal warning flags. Drinking alone is not actually fun. So if he's not drinking for fun, and he claims it's not a crutch, why is he drinking? (IMO "to destress" is another way of saying "crutch", but there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's a useful tool as long as it doesn't get out of control. Current advice here is 14 units per week, spread over at least three days).
The sole-caregiver-while-drunk thing is, IMO, a big no-no. What if he has to drive to hospital? Apart from that... well, you have to look at the outcomes. And if drinking made me a belligerent drunk and mean to my wife, I think I'd probably knock it on the head altogether.
posted by Leon at 4:21 AM on August 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Should have added: your opinions about alcohol are as valid as his, or anyone's, when it's impacting your life, regardless of culture or background. Only you can figure out if you are happy with the current setup or not.
posted by Leon at 4:27 AM on August 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Leon at 4:27 AM on August 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
Best answer: 1. Do you feel this pressure from him or kind of generally because of society's approach to alcohol? Pressure from him is Not Okay. There's lots of other ways you can have a "nice" night out. Order your favorite item on the menu even if it's the most expensive one. Get the most decadent dessert imaginable, don't give a toss about the calories. Take a cab to and from the restaurant because who wants to drive on a full stomach. Wine with dinner for me is about indulging, not about "adulting", and there's different ways people indulge. You do you.
2. I think it's tricky to judge if someone drinks "too much" and I don't have kids so I don't have an opinion on that aspect either. But you say his defense is that it's ok because it isn't a crutch, doesn't impede his work, and he doesn't do risky things. But you know what I hear is being impacted by his drinking? Your relationship with him.
About one evening a week, he’ll have a whole bottle and possibly a dram or two of scotch on top of that... We’ve both learned that we should just not have conversations on nights like that;
That's one evening a week you can't even talk to your partner. I don't think you think this is ok. Why does he think this is ok?
I think you have a reason to be concerned if you are not happy with not being able to even talk to him once a week but he is fine with it. For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't be fine with this pattern (and my partner and I both drink) and I would not find it viable for the long term.
posted by like_neon at 4:30 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
2. I think it's tricky to judge if someone drinks "too much" and I don't have kids so I don't have an opinion on that aspect either. But you say his defense is that it's ok because it isn't a crutch, doesn't impede his work, and he doesn't do risky things. But you know what I hear is being impacted by his drinking? Your relationship with him.
About one evening a week, he’ll have a whole bottle and possibly a dram or two of scotch on top of that... We’ve both learned that we should just not have conversations on nights like that;
That's one evening a week you can't even talk to your partner. I don't think you think this is ok. Why does he think this is ok?
I think you have a reason to be concerned if you are not happy with not being able to even talk to him once a week but he is fine with it. For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't be fine with this pattern (and my partner and I both drink) and I would not find it viable for the long term.
posted by like_neon at 4:30 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
One point in response to a commenter above. Never ok to be drunk in charge of kids? What rot! The kids are in bed, they're eight years old. All my friends have barbecues/dinner parties after the kids go to bed on weekends and get right proper squiffy. Not falling over vomiting, but totally drunk. If he's paralytic, that's one thing. But drunk with sleeping kids? That's an Australian weekend past time in suburban homes and has been for decades. (That's the only point I wanted to speak to.)
posted by taff at 4:31 AM on August 17, 2016 [74 favorites]
posted by taff at 4:31 AM on August 17, 2016 [74 favorites]
I think the wider issue is that at the moment these 'differences' can remain unresolved because you are not living together. From what you say it would not work for you to live with somebody and not talk to them on the evening where they feel the need to drink a bottle of wine....so if the plan is to continue the relationship long-term and to live together at some point you'll both have to sit down and work out how to compromise and that would probably have to include him not drinking a bottle of wine in one sitting once a week. So you may start to have those discussions sooner rather than later. I am all for having a glass of wine after work/drinking socially. But being unable to talk to my live in partner one day a week because he is a bad drunk would be a deal breaker for me.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:40 AM on August 17, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:40 AM on August 17, 2016 [32 favorites]
Rather than trying to pin down whether it's healthy for him, focus on whether it's something you want to live with. You mention commitment and the likelihood of eventually moving in together. But then...
About one evening a week, he’ll have a whole bottle and possibly a dram or two of scotch on top of that. On those nights, he gets proper drunk. We’ve both learned that we should just not have conversations on nights like that; they never end well. He becomes sarcastic, biting, overblown.
Right now it's easy to limit the impact of his drunkenness on you because you don't live with him. Imagine what this would be like if you had to stay away from your own house one evening a week, and pick up his slack when the kids needed caring for. That would be a big, fat deal-breaker for me, regardless of whether it seemed "healthy" for him.
posted by jon1270 at 4:47 AM on August 17, 2016 [17 favorites]
About one evening a week, he’ll have a whole bottle and possibly a dram or two of scotch on top of that. On those nights, he gets proper drunk. We’ve both learned that we should just not have conversations on nights like that; they never end well. He becomes sarcastic, biting, overblown.
Right now it's easy to limit the impact of his drunkenness on you because you don't live with him. Imagine what this would be like if you had to stay away from your own house one evening a week, and pick up his slack when the kids needed caring for. That would be a big, fat deal-breaker for me, regardless of whether it seemed "healthy" for him.
posted by jon1270 at 4:47 AM on August 17, 2016 [17 favorites]
Like Muslims, some groups of Christians are, of course, completely against alcohol, and consider it a sin to let the first drop touch your lips. I was more or less raised that way, so I'm familiar with your feeling of not trusting your own mileposts as to how much of a problem a certain amount of drinking is.
And our culture in general is so binary on alcohol - the prevailing theory is that if you're an alcoholic, you must become a teetotaler - no inbetween, no exceptions. I'm not here to critique that theory as it pertains to what someone with a problem needs to do, but I think it masks something rather obvious - that problem drinking (perhaps all drinking) is on sort of a spectrum. On the one end you have someone who seems to maybe have one beer too many every once in a great while and at the other end you have someone dying of alcohol-related complications while still binging.
The single logical fallacy that I'd point out on his part (and caution you on as well) is "Someone else has or has had bigger problems than I do, so I don't have a problem," along with "I don't engage in risky behavior X that is often associated with alcoholism, so I don't have a problem." It's good to not drink and drive, for example, but drinking and driving is not mandatory for alcoholics.
From some of the things you say, I think he's showing some awareness of the problems. I for one don't make excuses about things that I don't deep down consider a failing. I think you're certainly right to have that discussion with him and make your relationship plans according to how well he respects your concerns.
posted by randomkeystrike at 4:50 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
And our culture in general is so binary on alcohol - the prevailing theory is that if you're an alcoholic, you must become a teetotaler - no inbetween, no exceptions. I'm not here to critique that theory as it pertains to what someone with a problem needs to do, but I think it masks something rather obvious - that problem drinking (perhaps all drinking) is on sort of a spectrum. On the one end you have someone who seems to maybe have one beer too many every once in a great while and at the other end you have someone dying of alcohol-related complications while still binging.
The single logical fallacy that I'd point out on his part (and caution you on as well) is "Someone else has or has had bigger problems than I do, so I don't have a problem," along with "I don't engage in risky behavior X that is often associated with alcoholism, so I don't have a problem." It's good to not drink and drive, for example, but drinking and driving is not mandatory for alcoholics.
From some of the things you say, I think he's showing some awareness of the problems. I for one don't make excuses about things that I don't deep down consider a failing. I think you're certainly right to have that discussion with him and make your relationship plans according to how well he respects your concerns.
posted by randomkeystrike at 4:50 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: He drinks more than I would be comfortable with (in particular, drunk once a week, which seems way too much for an actual adult). However, I would worry less about how much he IS drinking and more about how much he WILL drink. He already has a family history of alcoholism. By drinking frequently he is putting himself at risk of addiction, even if he is not addicted already. This is like spending your life hanging out on foggy train tracks just because you don't hear a train coming just yet. Sure train tracks are safe as long as there's no train, but when you hear the train it may well be too late.
2) he doesn’t crave alcohol in the morning or get the shakes if he doesn’t drink; he can easily go without alcohol any night.
Quoeth my alcoholic uncle, a few years before he did of liver failure: "It's fine. The doctor's say the damage isn't permanent yet."
I would append a mental "yet" onto his statement. The time to cut back or stop drinking is not when you get the shakes if you don't drink. The time to cut back or stop drinking is BEFORE it interferes with your life, not after. (Though after is where he's at, since this is affecting his relationship with you).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:04 AM on August 17, 2016 [15 favorites]
2) he doesn’t crave alcohol in the morning or get the shakes if he doesn’t drink; he can easily go without alcohol any night.
Quoeth my alcoholic uncle, a few years before he did of liver failure: "It's fine. The doctor's say the damage isn't permanent yet."
I would append a mental "yet" onto his statement. The time to cut back or stop drinking is not when you get the shakes if you don't drink. The time to cut back or stop drinking is BEFORE it interferes with your life, not after. (Though after is where he's at, since this is affecting his relationship with you).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:04 AM on August 17, 2016 [15 favorites]
he has his 8-year-old twins overnight on the weekends, and will occasionally get drunk like this after they go to sleep. Is this an ok thing for single parents to do? It’s a weekend and the kids are safe in bed, but it concerns me because if something happens he’s the only adult in the house.
While this would personally be a huge problem for me, the person to ask is their mother. Do you have contact with her? Is she comfortable with him behaving like that?
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:04 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
While this would personally be a huge problem for me, the person to ask is their mother. Do you have contact with her? Is she comfortable with him behaving like that?
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:04 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I agree that the cultural context here is probably pretty important: my sense is that not drinking might be a bigger deal in Britain than in the US. And it seems like there's some complicated class stuff going on here that may not travel. So I'm a little wary of commenting too strongly, because I'm coming from a US perspective, and I'm thinking maybe you're not. For what it's worth, I grew up in a household where everyone drank moderately, and nobody in my family is an alcoholic. I think my exposure to alcohol has mostly been positive, and I think I have a relatively healthy relationship with alcohol.
It bothers me a bit that your partner doesn't respect your preferences when you go out together. It's entirely possible that drinking is a social norm in his social circles, and it's entirely possible that you are defying a social norm by not drinking. But I don't think he should be valuing social conformity over your comfort or preferences. Does he do that about other things? Is there any reciprocity? If he did something that you found mildly embarrassing or annoying, would he be willing to change it, or is this a one-way street?
To me, having a glass of wine at home alone is totally normal. Getting drunk alone on a regular basis would not be normal for me, and I guess that I instinctively think that's a bit of a red flag. I'm also concerned about the fact that he's a mean drunk, and like other people, I foresee problems if you ever move in together. Would he get drunk around your kids? Your kids really don't need to be exposed to mom's boyfriend in mean drunk mode. And what happens when you can't avoid him when he's drunk? If you're planning to keep your relationship where it is for the foreseeable future, then that's one thing, but if you have any plans to intensify things (and you do say that you don't live together "yet,") then I think you need to address this.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:12 AM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
It bothers me a bit that your partner doesn't respect your preferences when you go out together. It's entirely possible that drinking is a social norm in his social circles, and it's entirely possible that you are defying a social norm by not drinking. But I don't think he should be valuing social conformity over your comfort or preferences. Does he do that about other things? Is there any reciprocity? If he did something that you found mildly embarrassing or annoying, would he be willing to change it, or is this a one-way street?
To me, having a glass of wine at home alone is totally normal. Getting drunk alone on a regular basis would not be normal for me, and I guess that I instinctively think that's a bit of a red flag. I'm also concerned about the fact that he's a mean drunk, and like other people, I foresee problems if you ever move in together. Would he get drunk around your kids? Your kids really don't need to be exposed to mom's boyfriend in mean drunk mode. And what happens when you can't avoid him when he's drunk? If you're planning to keep your relationship where it is for the foreseeable future, then that's one thing, but if you have any plans to intensify things (and you do say that you don't live together "yet,") then I think you need to address this.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:12 AM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Ah, he's fine.
Sounds very normal and ordinary in my family, neighborhood and social group.
posted by littlewater at 5:41 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sounds very normal and ordinary in my family, neighborhood and social group.
posted by littlewater at 5:41 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah, it's your relationship together that's more worrisome to me than his drinking per se. As others have said, it's worth considering how you feel about a partner you can't talk to one night out of seven, and how you feel about a partner who is mean to you when uninhibited.
Those are the bigger concerns to me, somewhat mitigated by his willingness to accommodate his drinking a bit to your lifestyle (e.g., sometimes not drinking when you are together ... But I don't see agreeing not to talk with you on nights when he's well soused as an accommodation).
Drinking a bottle of wine-plus one night per week -- particularly in the context of caring for young kids who may need to be driven to hospital or who may be involved in some other crisis that he has to manage (even after they go to bed, things can happen) -- seems foolhardy to me. I would have to question his judgment in general, since he has judged it OK to drink this much, though he must be aware that he can't safely and legally drive should the need arise.
posted by mmw at 5:50 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Those are the bigger concerns to me, somewhat mitigated by his willingness to accommodate his drinking a bit to your lifestyle (e.g., sometimes not drinking when you are together ... But I don't see agreeing not to talk with you on nights when he's well soused as an accommodation).
Drinking a bottle of wine-plus one night per week -- particularly in the context of caring for young kids who may need to be driven to hospital or who may be involved in some other crisis that he has to manage (even after they go to bed, things can happen) -- seems foolhardy to me. I would have to question his judgment in general, since he has judged it OK to drink this much, though he must be aware that he can't safely and legally drive should the need arise.
posted by mmw at 5:50 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Some clarification: we are in Canada. I grew up upper-middle-class: he grew up poor/working class and worked very hard to get out of that situation. He makes well into six figures now and I make close to six.
posted by puppet du sock at 5:52 AM on August 17, 2016
posted by puppet du sock at 5:52 AM on August 17, 2016
Best answer: I am less concerned with the fact that you have cultural differences around drinking, and more concerned with the fact that he turns into a mean drunk sometimes, to the extent that you have to cut off communication with him on those nights.
This concerns me because:
-That is not the sign of someone who is in control.
-That is not the kind of parent I would want small children to find if they wake up feeling unwell for any reason.
-It sounds like he is telling you that you are overreacting, which you absolutely are not.
-This is an untenable situation for future cohabitation. You can't not answer the phone when you live with someone, and likely share a room and a bed with him.
He might claim that he drinks because he's feeling festive, but if it turns him mean, then, you know, his claim is disproved. Do not move in with him until he is ready to talk about this without criticizing or demeaning you.
Also, I get the sense that maybe he is telling you (or implying) that your reservations about his alcohol consumption are because of your background, and therefore can be ignored. That is unfair and untrue. I grew up in a non-Muslim extended family with plenty of drinking (and plenty of them were mean drunks), and I would feel similarly uncomfortable with his behavior. Just reading about it makes me uncomfortable, tbh. He is telling you that your feelings are wrong, and that his are right, and that there will be no more discussion about the matter.
I would bet he used to tell his ex-wife something very similar.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:52 AM on August 17, 2016 [29 favorites]
This concerns me because:
-That is not the sign of someone who is in control.
-That is not the kind of parent I would want small children to find if they wake up feeling unwell for any reason.
-It sounds like he is telling you that you are overreacting, which you absolutely are not.
-This is an untenable situation for future cohabitation. You can't not answer the phone when you live with someone, and likely share a room and a bed with him.
He might claim that he drinks because he's feeling festive, but if it turns him mean, then, you know, his claim is disproved. Do not move in with him until he is ready to talk about this without criticizing or demeaning you.
Also, I get the sense that maybe he is telling you (or implying) that your reservations about his alcohol consumption are because of your background, and therefore can be ignored. That is unfair and untrue. I grew up in a non-Muslim extended family with plenty of drinking (and plenty of them were mean drunks), and I would feel similarly uncomfortable with his behavior. Just reading about it makes me uncomfortable, tbh. He is telling you that your feelings are wrong, and that his are right, and that there will be no more discussion about the matter.
I would bet he used to tell his ex-wife something very similar.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:52 AM on August 17, 2016 [29 favorites]
Choosing to drink a bit too much one night a week doesn't seem wildly excessive to me (though his weekly total sounds well above the current medical recommendations, for what that is worth). The red flags to me are the mean drunk part, and the ways that the drinking seems to be starting to structure his life, rather than the reverse. And of those red flags, the mean drunk thing would be to me the big deal, and says to me that he is choosing drinking over being a good partner.
One point in response to a commenter above. Never ok to be drunk in charge of kids? What rot! The kids are in bed, they're eight years old. All my friends have barbecues/dinner parties after the kids go to bed on weekends and get right proper squiffy. Not falling over vomiting, but totally drunk. If he's paralytic, that's one thing. But drunk with sleeping kids? That's an Australian weekend past time in suburban homes and has been for decades. (That's the only point I wanted to speak to.)
This is where culture matters, and specifics matter. Most people I know with kids drink after dinner and enjoy their adult time, but I have sometimes wondered if there was an emergency, is there a backup person or a way to solve the problem without driving?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 AM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
One point in response to a commenter above. Never ok to be drunk in charge of kids? What rot! The kids are in bed, they're eight years old. All my friends have barbecues/dinner parties after the kids go to bed on weekends and get right proper squiffy. Not falling over vomiting, but totally drunk. If he's paralytic, that's one thing. But drunk with sleeping kids? That's an Australian weekend past time in suburban homes and has been for decades. (That's the only point I wanted to speak to.)
This is where culture matters, and specifics matter. Most people I know with kids drink after dinner and enjoy their adult time, but I have sometimes wondered if there was an emergency, is there a backup person or a way to solve the problem without driving?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 AM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Reading over this thread is really fascinating and instructive -- there are so many different viewpoints on alcohol. Personally, I would find the following to be big red flags:
- being unkind to me after having been drinking, no matter how much had been drunk.
- getting drunk when serving as the primary caretaker for children
- pressuring me to drink more than I wanted to, for any reason, at any time.
- routinely polishing off a bottle of wine plus additional liquor, especially while drinking alone.
I don't find those things normal or ok or livable. I suppose, though, what it really comes down to is not "what is normal" (since, as evidenced by this thread, there are many different standards for "normal"), but "what is ok for me personally."
He has basically said to you, "This level of drinking is ok for me." The question you need to ask yourself is, is it ok for you? His rationale for drinking the way he does don't actually matter much when it comes to your gut feeling about whether you can live with this level of drinking by your partner. If he keeps drinking this way for the rest of his life, can you live with that? Do you want to get closer to him or merge your lives further in that case? It's a personal line that you have to draw based on what feels right -- there's no clear, objective standard that will tell you if this will work for you, and you absolutely have a right to make your own choice based on your own feelings. Don't let anyone (especially not him) try to take away your prerogative to determine and set your own healthy boundaries around the place you want alcohol to have in your life.
posted by ourobouros at 6:06 AM on August 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
- being unkind to me after having been drinking, no matter how much had been drunk.
- getting drunk when serving as the primary caretaker for children
- pressuring me to drink more than I wanted to, for any reason, at any time.
- routinely polishing off a bottle of wine plus additional liquor, especially while drinking alone.
I don't find those things normal or ok or livable. I suppose, though, what it really comes down to is not "what is normal" (since, as evidenced by this thread, there are many different standards for "normal"), but "what is ok for me personally."
He has basically said to you, "This level of drinking is ok for me." The question you need to ask yourself is, is it ok for you? His rationale for drinking the way he does don't actually matter much when it comes to your gut feeling about whether you can live with this level of drinking by your partner. If he keeps drinking this way for the rest of his life, can you live with that? Do you want to get closer to him or merge your lives further in that case? It's a personal line that you have to draw based on what feels right -- there's no clear, objective standard that will tell you if this will work for you, and you absolutely have a right to make your own choice based on your own feelings. Don't let anyone (especially not him) try to take away your prerogative to determine and set your own healthy boundaries around the place you want alcohol to have in your life.
posted by ourobouros at 6:06 AM on August 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
My best friend is married to someone with very similar drinking patterns as you describe in your partner, and I know he's not an alcoholic - but I wouldn't want to be married to him, either. Your viewpoints are both valid and not necessarily unhealthy either way, but this is a big difference of opinion on a subject likely to cause friction for the rest of your lives. His defensiveness gives me more pause than the quantity. And almost everybody underestimates the amount they drink in defensive conversations about their drinking, so that's something to consider as well.
posted by something something at 6:11 AM on August 17, 2016
posted by something something at 6:11 AM on August 17, 2016
After our last big argument about 4 months ago, he stated if it happened again, he would stop drinking altogether. He’s been very careful since then…
Something about this sets off a warning chime to me. He is carefully guarding his relationship to alcohol to make sure he doesn't have to give it up. He cares about avoiding fights with you because he's conditioned his relationship with alcohol on that factor rather than recognizing the real danger is the one he's taking with his relationship to you (not booze). Many people with drinking problems can recognize this "if I do X Y Z (only drink beer, only drink with company, drink a glass of water in between) I can keep drinking, if not I will stop!" And then you have a binge and the goalposts shift or you give yourself just one more chance...
posted by sallybrown at 6:31 AM on August 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
Something about this sets off a warning chime to me. He is carefully guarding his relationship to alcohol to make sure he doesn't have to give it up. He cares about avoiding fights with you because he's conditioned his relationship with alcohol on that factor rather than recognizing the real danger is the one he's taking with his relationship to you (not booze). Many people with drinking problems can recognize this "if I do X Y Z (only drink beer, only drink with company, drink a glass of water in between) I can keep drinking, if not I will stop!" And then you have a binge and the goalposts shift or you give yourself just one more chance...
posted by sallybrown at 6:31 AM on August 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
Most people I know with kids drink after dinner and enjoy their adult time, but I have sometimes wondered if there was an emergency, is there a backup person or a way to solve the problem without driving?
Lots of people with kids can't drive, or wouldn't drive to hospital in an emergency. As you say, it's very much a cultural and regional thing.
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:38 AM on August 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
Lots of people with kids can't drive, or wouldn't drive to hospital in an emergency. As you say, it's very much a cultural and regional thing.
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:38 AM on August 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm middle-class Canadian who grew up with parents who drank reasonably (my mum got tipsy maybe 3x a year, they had wine or beer with dinner a couple of times a week, and maybe a few times a month a whiskey sour before bed), with 3/4 grandparents who were serious alcoholics and alcoholic aunts and uncles.
I think the getting drunk once a week is the only serious red flag. I am on the fence about the twins...when I'm having a solo parenting week I wouldn't drink that much but if he's able to hear his kids if he needs to and can call a cab or ambulance to the hospital I don't think it's neglectful. It's a red flag though because there is a pretty significant difference between having a drink and getting drunk, and getting drunk once a week in one's 40s, while not that uncommon, does sound like self-medicating or something.
Some of this though will depend on where and why. When my kids were still really little and my husband and I still hadn't quite worked out how to give each other good downtime and I was struggling at work, I drank much more on Friday night than I do now.
I would see if he's open to changing that, not just by stopping but by finding something else to do; play games online, get a hobby, etc. I'm not sure I would want to live with someone who had to drink 4-5 drinks a night every week. And that's been me!
There is sometimes social pressure about the wine but for me, I often say no because I am driving and I don't drive with even one drink. I don't say why though and it's occasionally a bit awkward but it's never had any long-term impact that I'm aware of. It's just a momentarily blip.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 AM on August 17, 2016
I think the getting drunk once a week is the only serious red flag. I am on the fence about the twins...when I'm having a solo parenting week I wouldn't drink that much but if he's able to hear his kids if he needs to and can call a cab or ambulance to the hospital I don't think it's neglectful. It's a red flag though because there is a pretty significant difference between having a drink and getting drunk, and getting drunk once a week in one's 40s, while not that uncommon, does sound like self-medicating or something.
Some of this though will depend on where and why. When my kids were still really little and my husband and I still hadn't quite worked out how to give each other good downtime and I was struggling at work, I drank much more on Friday night than I do now.
I would see if he's open to changing that, not just by stopping but by finding something else to do; play games online, get a hobby, etc. I'm not sure I would want to live with someone who had to drink 4-5 drinks a night every week. And that's been me!
There is sometimes social pressure about the wine but for me, I often say no because I am driving and I don't drive with even one drink. I don't say why though and it's occasionally a bit awkward but it's never had any long-term impact that I'm aware of. It's just a momentarily blip.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 AM on August 17, 2016
The alcoholics I have met have viewed drinking as an activity in and of itself. So if you asked what they did last night, they wouldn't say "watched tv" or "met up with Simon", they would say "spent it drinking" or "got drunk with Simon" instead. Because alcohol was of central importance in their lives.
Your guy sounds like he is edging towards that with his evening binges. The couple of glasses of wine after work sounds ok (although given the size of most wine glasses, probably still puts him over the healthy limit if it's every single night).
The pushing you to drink on nights out is obnoxious behaviour, but not necessarily the mark of an alcoholic (especially if he has some class insecurity and isn't used to eating in restaurants). You aren't commiting any kind of faux pas by not drinking though - I often have sparkling water, because I'm often driving. Perfectly acceptable. Fanta out of a can is a bit worse, but I've seen people do it often enough.
The drinking with kids depends on how drunk he is - would he be able to accompany them to hospital if necessary? (I don't mean is he over the drink-drive limit, but could he sit with them and interact appropriately with the hospital staff). If he's just a bit tipsy, probably OK. If he's falling over, giggling about nothing, or starting fights with chairs, he's too drunk.
There's certainly enough here that I'd have a problem with his drinking, and I say that as a middle class UK resident, who drank plenty in my twenties. He should have grown out of a lot of this by now. Even if he isn't an alcoholic, he sounds like a bit of a pain to go out with. I don't want to spend my forties cleaning up my husband's sick and apologising to my friends for how obnoxious he was the previous night, and it doesn't sound like you do either.
posted by tinkletown at 6:48 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Your guy sounds like he is edging towards that with his evening binges. The couple of glasses of wine after work sounds ok (although given the size of most wine glasses, probably still puts him over the healthy limit if it's every single night).
The pushing you to drink on nights out is obnoxious behaviour, but not necessarily the mark of an alcoholic (especially if he has some class insecurity and isn't used to eating in restaurants). You aren't commiting any kind of faux pas by not drinking though - I often have sparkling water, because I'm often driving. Perfectly acceptable. Fanta out of a can is a bit worse, but I've seen people do it often enough.
The drinking with kids depends on how drunk he is - would he be able to accompany them to hospital if necessary? (I don't mean is he over the drink-drive limit, but could he sit with them and interact appropriately with the hospital staff). If he's just a bit tipsy, probably OK. If he's falling over, giggling about nothing, or starting fights with chairs, he's too drunk.
There's certainly enough here that I'd have a problem with his drinking, and I say that as a middle class UK resident, who drank plenty in my twenties. He should have grown out of a lot of this by now. Even if he isn't an alcoholic, he sounds like a bit of a pain to go out with. I don't want to spend my forties cleaning up my husband's sick and apologising to my friends for how obnoxious he was the previous night, and it doesn't sound like you do either.
posted by tinkletown at 6:48 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Leaving cultural norms to one side (although that is too much drinking for a Canadian, imo. Not getting the DTs is not a positive sign of freedom from addiction, contrary to what many drinkers tell themselves) - you are in for a **world of pain** if you get deeper into his life...
He is absolutely protecting his drinking, and his occasional nastiness is going to be unleashed upon you, full force, if you try to challenge him on it (or "help" him - there is no helping someone who doesn't want it, who romanticizes alcohol and has a deeply ingrained relationship with it). And if he succeeds in charming you away from clarity, if you "adapt" to his patterns - avoid criticizing him, tiptoe around his rages and moods, refrain from normal requests when he is hung over, consent to any part of his distorted reality - you will be lost. Really, seriously, lost to yourself.
Things seem ok now because there isn't the opportunity to see most of the real deal.
I have this T shirt, vigorously do not recommend. Dump without hesitation.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:23 AM on August 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
He is absolutely protecting his drinking, and his occasional nastiness is going to be unleashed upon you, full force, if you try to challenge him on it (or "help" him - there is no helping someone who doesn't want it, who romanticizes alcohol and has a deeply ingrained relationship with it). And if he succeeds in charming you away from clarity, if you "adapt" to his patterns - avoid criticizing him, tiptoe around his rages and moods, refrain from normal requests when he is hung over, consent to any part of his distorted reality - you will be lost. Really, seriously, lost to yourself.
Things seem ok now because there isn't the opportunity to see most of the real deal.
I have this T shirt, vigorously do not recommend. Dump without hesitation.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:23 AM on August 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I live in the upper midwest of US in a very heavy drinking culture. I think he has a drinking problem and it's going to be an issue for you. It may not be an issue for other people, but it is for you and it's okay for you to recognize that. The standard guideline to help identify a drinking problem is, "Is alcohol causing a problem?" If the answer is yes and the person chooses not to fix the problem, then there's a drinking problem. I identify very much with your partner and his concept, "I'm not like my mom, so therefore I'm not a drunk." It's true, he probably is not an alcoholic in the same manner his mother was, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a drinking problem or couldn't become an alcoholic just like his mom. It took me about twenty years to figure that one out.
He's binge drinking once a week. A bottle of wine would be binge drinking, and he's adding scotch to that. I wonder if he's honest with his doctor about how much he drinks. Weekly binge drinking is a bit too much for me and I wouldn't be comfortable with it in my partner - in fact, I'm not and it's something my partner gets a little close to sometimes (A six-pack a night on the weekends is more his style. Very strong beer too). Fortunately, he's been watching his calorie intake and getting into shape and we're also watching our budget, so he decided to cut down on the beer. This was a decision he came to on his own and I did not mention it, although perhaps he noticed me cutting down on alcohol and decided to follow suit. Also my partner does not have a family history of alcoholism, which I do and your partner does. That family history means we can't be as lax about drinking as many people feel they can be.
If you have plans to move in together, I think you'll both need to come to an agreement on this. You may not be comfortable with sharing home with someone who binge drinks once a week. You may get used to it, or he may find a way to reduce his drinking to a point you can both tolerate. I think the "drinking with kids at home" thing is an issue that really varies. Doing it weekly does seem extreme to me - in my circles it would be more of something that happens accidentally during a very rare, celebratory evening. It would not be something most couples do every week, and I know many families where they wouldn't drink at all in that situation. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do about it with him, except telling him to call you if the kids need something and he's been drinking.
Oh, and I can tell you from growing up in a home with recovered alcoholics, the restaurant thing is not an issue for many people. (I'm not dismissing your feeling, just trying to give you a data point from different social circles). My extended family dines in very nice restaurants on a weekly basis and never orders alcohol. It's just not even brought up. I often don't drink when I'm out with friends either. It does take confidence on my part to say, "Nope, I'm not a big drinker." My friends are really understanding about this. You could tell your partner before you go out that you're not going to drink. Tell him before he's started drinking. If he reacts badly or makes you feel uncomfortable about it, then that's a sign that he's not a kind person and very possibly feeling uncomfortable about his own drinking.
posted by areaperson at 7:37 AM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
He's binge drinking once a week. A bottle of wine would be binge drinking, and he's adding scotch to that. I wonder if he's honest with his doctor about how much he drinks. Weekly binge drinking is a bit too much for me and I wouldn't be comfortable with it in my partner - in fact, I'm not and it's something my partner gets a little close to sometimes (A six-pack a night on the weekends is more his style. Very strong beer too). Fortunately, he's been watching his calorie intake and getting into shape and we're also watching our budget, so he decided to cut down on the beer. This was a decision he came to on his own and I did not mention it, although perhaps he noticed me cutting down on alcohol and decided to follow suit. Also my partner does not have a family history of alcoholism, which I do and your partner does. That family history means we can't be as lax about drinking as many people feel they can be.
If you have plans to move in together, I think you'll both need to come to an agreement on this. You may not be comfortable with sharing home with someone who binge drinks once a week. You may get used to it, or he may find a way to reduce his drinking to a point you can both tolerate. I think the "drinking with kids at home" thing is an issue that really varies. Doing it weekly does seem extreme to me - in my circles it would be more of something that happens accidentally during a very rare, celebratory evening. It would not be something most couples do every week, and I know many families where they wouldn't drink at all in that situation. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do about it with him, except telling him to call you if the kids need something and he's been drinking.
Oh, and I can tell you from growing up in a home with recovered alcoholics, the restaurant thing is not an issue for many people. (I'm not dismissing your feeling, just trying to give you a data point from different social circles). My extended family dines in very nice restaurants on a weekly basis and never orders alcohol. It's just not even brought up. I often don't drink when I'm out with friends either. It does take confidence on my part to say, "Nope, I'm not a big drinker." My friends are really understanding about this. You could tell your partner before you go out that you're not going to drink. Tell him before he's started drinking. If he reacts badly or makes you feel uncomfortable about it, then that's a sign that he's not a kind person and very possibly feeling uncomfortable about his own drinking.
posted by areaperson at 7:37 AM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I would consider both your feelings about/relationship with alcohol to fall within "normal and unremarkable," just at opposite ends.
Yes, non-drinkers and very light drinkers tend to feel a little awkward about how that plays in social situations. Yes, folks who are drinkers consider alcohol an important element of celebrating. Yes, a few drinks could be enough to render the drinker annoying to the non-drinker, but not necessarily so impaired as to be a problematic parenting judgement call.
posted by desuetude at 7:37 AM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes, non-drinkers and very light drinkers tend to feel a little awkward about how that plays in social situations. Yes, folks who are drinkers consider alcohol an important element of celebrating. Yes, a few drinks could be enough to render the drinker annoying to the non-drinker, but not necessarily so impaired as to be a problematic parenting judgement call.
posted by desuetude at 7:37 AM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ann Dowsett Johnston seems to have coined the word "alcogenic," to refer to a culture that promotes overconsumption of alcohol, and she's Canadian. All of the behavior you describe seems normal to a lot of people. Under current circumstances, no one is going to pressure him to stop until he gets a dwi or the doctor notices physical problems.
So I think the question is where you fit in. Like several people above, I find the part where you have to plan to avoid him sometimes concerning. I come from a family of alcoholics and this whole thing of someone getting to be a jerk because they are drinking, and it being your responsibility to stay out of the way-- screw that.
You might want to read up on "codependency" and see what it will involve if you go there.
posted by BibiRose at 7:39 AM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
So I think the question is where you fit in. Like several people above, I find the part where you have to plan to avoid him sometimes concerning. I come from a family of alcoholics and this whole thing of someone getting to be a jerk because they are drinking, and it being your responsibility to stay out of the way-- screw that.
You might want to read up on "codependency" and see what it will involve if you go there.
posted by BibiRose at 7:39 AM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
First, I don't think there are many, if any, situations you should do something that doesn't make you feel comfortable. Social pressures to drink can sod off. You only need one reason to not drink, so not liking the taste OR dislike useless calories OR don't want to spend the money on it is enough to say no to a drink, but you have all three. Also, would he still want to go out to dinners with you if you never drank? If social drinking is a requirement of you for him, that could well be a deal-breaker on its own, because that's not a pressure you or anyone needs.
I say all that as someone who didn't drink for most of my time in college, even when I was at bars or parties where everyone else was drinking, because my father and his sister are alcoholics, I didn't like the taste of alcohol, and I enjoyed being sober because I had seen enough of people being dumb and feeling terrible while drunk.
Then I got a taste for better alcohol, and I currently enjoy drinks, but only have a few in beers in any week. And like you, I also generally don't like buying drinks when I'm out because they cost more than I care to spend on a single drink.
As for his behaviors - he may not be a full alcoholic, but getting drunk once a week, especially to the point that you have agreed you shouldn't talk on those nights? That's a huge red flag. If you were to live together at some point in the future, would he stop drinking that much, or would there be nights you avoid each-other to avoid such interactions?
Regarding being drunk while being the only adult in a house with two sleeping kids - not awesome, but probably not the worst thing ever. If there were some emergency, does he have neighbors he could rely on for help? Is he close to a hospital? As a father to two young boys, I'm worried about if something awful happens during the night and he had to rush one or both of his kids to the hospital - could he do it?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:45 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I say all that as someone who didn't drink for most of my time in college, even when I was at bars or parties where everyone else was drinking, because my father and his sister are alcoholics, I didn't like the taste of alcohol, and I enjoyed being sober because I had seen enough of people being dumb and feeling terrible while drunk.
Then I got a taste for better alcohol, and I currently enjoy drinks, but only have a few in beers in any week. And like you, I also generally don't like buying drinks when I'm out because they cost more than I care to spend on a single drink.
As for his behaviors - he may not be a full alcoholic, but getting drunk once a week, especially to the point that you have agreed you shouldn't talk on those nights? That's a huge red flag. If you were to live together at some point in the future, would he stop drinking that much, or would there be nights you avoid each-other to avoid such interactions?
Regarding being drunk while being the only adult in a house with two sleeping kids - not awesome, but probably not the worst thing ever. If there were some emergency, does he have neighbors he could rely on for help? Is he close to a hospital? As a father to two young boys, I'm worried about if something awful happens during the night and he had to rush one or both of his kids to the hospital - could he do it?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:45 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do most cultures have all-out festivals once every week? With only one adult in charge of the children?
Also: Just because there are pockets of people where it's normal doesn't make it fine in this circumstance. Groups of adults drinking together is different from the sole adult in the house drinking, a lot, alone. Groups of adults can designate one to remain sober in case of emergency; they can be a slight check on each others' judgment; they probably, collectively, have other friends or relatives they can call in case of emergency; they will probably not all fall so asleep that an alarm or a worried child won't wake them.
As for what you can do about it -- you could try positive reinforcement; planning some really fun sober times with him and/or the kids; asking whether it's possible to be festive without alcohol; asking whether he'd like to do some other activity to have fun, like game nights, bowling, etc. You can try reasoning with him, once or twice, gently. I wouldn't give up on him or the relationship without at least seeing if he's interested in moderating.
posted by amtho at 7:57 AM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also: Just because there are pockets of people where it's normal doesn't make it fine in this circumstance. Groups of adults drinking together is different from the sole adult in the house drinking, a lot, alone. Groups of adults can designate one to remain sober in case of emergency; they can be a slight check on each others' judgment; they probably, collectively, have other friends or relatives they can call in case of emergency; they will probably not all fall so asleep that an alarm or a worried child won't wake them.
As for what you can do about it -- you could try positive reinforcement; planning some really fun sober times with him and/or the kids; asking whether it's possible to be festive without alcohol; asking whether he'd like to do some other activity to have fun, like game nights, bowling, etc. You can try reasoning with him, once or twice, gently. I wouldn't give up on him or the relationship without at least seeing if he's interested in moderating.
posted by amtho at 7:57 AM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
- Someone upthread wrote that "drinking alone is not fun" as if it's an absolute. It varies from person to person. I personally prefer drinking alone, because it allows me to savor the taste and is a pleasant companion to whatever book I'm reading. That's fine.Point taken. But.... getting drunk alone? We're talking maybe 12 units in a night here.
posted by Leon at 8:05 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think you'll be able to live with this guy after reading your description of his drinking habits, and it sounds like you wouldn't want your children living with him on those nights either even if they're asleep. If you're happy never living together or maintaining separate residences until your children are grown, it might work. The "drinking until drunk when alone and happy" that would not work for me, I agree it's unhealthy even if it's common. I think the crux is that you don't like this, you want him to change, and he doesn't want to give this up.
My dad was an alcoholic (who is now sober many years later) and growing up I remember my mom coming in to sleep with me to get away from him on bad nights, and I've experienced living with an ex who was an alcoholic. He'd come to bed plastered and reeking of alcohol and it made my skin crawl because he was a different person than my regular loving boyfriend.
I'd say I drink a handful of times a year, and it stops at 1-2 glasses of wine (and the older I get the less I drink), and now I know I can't date men who change when they drink. They can get sillier and "drunker" like a little bit sloppy after a big party, or tired, but if it seriously changes their personality and how they relate to me it's a no-go. I also don't date men who go beyond tipsy on a regular basis, weekly would be too much for me. There are lots of men out there who enjoy a glass of wine or a beer or two with dinner but that's it. I'm the same way with marijuana, an occasional usage is fine but if they need to smoke two joints to sleep even some of the time it would make me uncomfortable.
I've stopped drinking to be social because I don't like what alcohol does to my stomach and my sleep, it mainly disappoints the servers but I'm a good tipper or I order dessert so I don't feel guilty. I order virgin caesars because they're delicious if it goes well with my dinner, or I order whatever I want, like a cup of herbal tea, and I make a point of showing that I'm happy my dinner date is happy with their meal and drink and I'm happy with mine. Good company, good food and maybe dessert is more than enough festivity for me.
posted by lafemma at 8:16 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
My dad was an alcoholic (who is now sober many years later) and growing up I remember my mom coming in to sleep with me to get away from him on bad nights, and I've experienced living with an ex who was an alcoholic. He'd come to bed plastered and reeking of alcohol and it made my skin crawl because he was a different person than my regular loving boyfriend.
I'd say I drink a handful of times a year, and it stops at 1-2 glasses of wine (and the older I get the less I drink), and now I know I can't date men who change when they drink. They can get sillier and "drunker" like a little bit sloppy after a big party, or tired, but if it seriously changes their personality and how they relate to me it's a no-go. I also don't date men who go beyond tipsy on a regular basis, weekly would be too much for me. There are lots of men out there who enjoy a glass of wine or a beer or two with dinner but that's it. I'm the same way with marijuana, an occasional usage is fine but if they need to smoke two joints to sleep even some of the time it would make me uncomfortable.
I've stopped drinking to be social because I don't like what alcohol does to my stomach and my sleep, it mainly disappoints the servers but I'm a good tipper or I order dessert so I don't feel guilty. I order virgin caesars because they're delicious if it goes well with my dinner, or I order whatever I want, like a cup of herbal tea, and I make a point of showing that I'm happy my dinner date is happy with their meal and drink and I'm happy with mine. Good company, good food and maybe dessert is more than enough festivity for me.
posted by lafemma at 8:16 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
You do not have to be an alcoholic to have a drinking problem.
Where is alcohol on his list of priorities? Is it above his kids, partner, family, job, health...? Is he arranging and planning around alcohol? Is that ok with you?
posted by meemzi at 9:47 AM on August 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Where is alcohol on his list of priorities? Is it above his kids, partner, family, job, health...? Is he arranging and planning around alcohol? Is that ok with you?
posted by meemzi at 9:47 AM on August 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Alcohol is linked to cancer. So that's one reason to drink moderately, if at all.
Also, it sounds like he's actually getting drunk twice a week fairly routinely. I would personally classify that as unhealthy, especially considering he's also drinking every single day of the week. That sounds like he's built up a tolerance to alcohol, not like he's able to quit whenever he feels like it. It sounds like he can't go a single day without a drink, and IMO that is a problem. When he'd rather make sure he's allowed to get drunk whenever he wants by manipulating you so you stop objecting, it's a problem. When he'd rather make sure that he can drink than be kind to you every night of the week, it's a problem.
But he doesn't see that it's a problem. And chances are that he's never going to see it as a problem and that he won't thank you for trying to help him understand that he's developing a dependence on alcohol. He seems like his most important relationship is actually with alcohol, not humans.
(Regardless of culture, I do think it's irresponsible to drink to the point of being drunk while he's the sole caretaker of two kids, especially if he does this every time they spend the night. He's the only one they can turn to in an emergency. It's not about being able to drive, it's about being sober enough to deal with everything from an upset tummy to a fire. Again, it seems like his relationship with alcohol is more important than his relationship with other humans, even his own children.)
posted by i feel possessed at 9:55 AM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, it sounds like he's actually getting drunk twice a week fairly routinely. I would personally classify that as unhealthy, especially considering he's also drinking every single day of the week. That sounds like he's built up a tolerance to alcohol, not like he's able to quit whenever he feels like it. It sounds like he can't go a single day without a drink, and IMO that is a problem. When he'd rather make sure he's allowed to get drunk whenever he wants by manipulating you so you stop objecting, it's a problem. When he'd rather make sure that he can drink than be kind to you every night of the week, it's a problem.
But he doesn't see that it's a problem. And chances are that he's never going to see it as a problem and that he won't thank you for trying to help him understand that he's developing a dependence on alcohol. He seems like his most important relationship is actually with alcohol, not humans.
(Regardless of culture, I do think it's irresponsible to drink to the point of being drunk while he's the sole caretaker of two kids, especially if he does this every time they spend the night. He's the only one they can turn to in an emergency. It's not about being able to drive, it's about being sober enough to deal with everything from an upset tummy to a fire. Again, it seems like his relationship with alcohol is more important than his relationship with other humans, even his own children.)
posted by i feel possessed at 9:55 AM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is tough, because on the one hand it's such a small thing, but on the other hand it signals a major incompatibility.
In my opinion as a white Westerner from a secular background, your boyfriend is absolutely in the right here. It would probably be better for him not to finish off a whole bottle of wine when the kids are around, but it's not objectively wrong, either. He doesn't seem to have a drinking problem in any way.
I think you should frame this around yourself not wanting to drink, and not as trying to get him to change his (completely acceptable and normal) behavior simply because you didn't grow up around alcohol. You seem to have a lot of rules about what he has to do if he's drinking alcohol, and even when you state your lack of interest in drinking, it's framed in judgmental terms like "waste of calories".
That said, you should tell him when you don't want to drink, and you shouldn't need reasons. Not liking the taste of it is 100% reason enough.
If the two of you agree that him drinking a whole bottle of wine on his own is a problem for him, maybe encourage him to switch to a different type of alcohol? Because wine is not generally sold in single-serving amounts, and is much lower in alcohol than hard liquor, it can be very easy to open a bottle of wine, have a glass or two, and then just keep drinking gradually over the course of the evening. You end up drunk, but it's a slow process and not always predictable. Whereas if you're having a beer, you have to get up and go find a second beer, a third, etc. which can make it much clearer exactly how much you've been drinking. Or if you're having a whiskey, it's higher in alcohol and the effects are much clearer than with wine.
posted by Sara C. at 10:35 AM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
In my opinion as a white Westerner from a secular background, your boyfriend is absolutely in the right here. It would probably be better for him not to finish off a whole bottle of wine when the kids are around, but it's not objectively wrong, either. He doesn't seem to have a drinking problem in any way.
I think you should frame this around yourself not wanting to drink, and not as trying to get him to change his (completely acceptable and normal) behavior simply because you didn't grow up around alcohol. You seem to have a lot of rules about what he has to do if he's drinking alcohol, and even when you state your lack of interest in drinking, it's framed in judgmental terms like "waste of calories".
That said, you should tell him when you don't want to drink, and you shouldn't need reasons. Not liking the taste of it is 100% reason enough.
If the two of you agree that him drinking a whole bottle of wine on his own is a problem for him, maybe encourage him to switch to a different type of alcohol? Because wine is not generally sold in single-serving amounts, and is much lower in alcohol than hard liquor, it can be very easy to open a bottle of wine, have a glass or two, and then just keep drinking gradually over the course of the evening. You end up drunk, but it's a slow process and not always predictable. Whereas if you're having a beer, you have to get up and go find a second beer, a third, etc. which can make it much clearer exactly how much you've been drinking. Or if you're having a whiskey, it's higher in alcohol and the effects are much clearer than with wine.
posted by Sara C. at 10:35 AM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: i think maybe greater than or equal to the actual amounts he's drinking are the concerns i feel from:
- the fact that he apparently has, prepared already for discussion, a list of reasons why he's not actually an alcoholic
- the fact that he pressures you to drink when you don't want to
- it seems like he doesn't feel he can legitimately enjoy an occasion that is meant to be enjoyable by its own merit (dining with loved one, spending time with loved one, etc) without having alcohol be a part of it?
- the fact that you are wholly resigned to the fact, as though it is normal and unremarkable, that he will be verbally abusive to you when he's "proper drunk"
- the fact that he cites your lack of personal experience with alcoholism as a sign that he doesn't have a problem with alcohol
it is unfortunate that many people in general seem to believe that alcoholism is only getting falling down drunk always, or being drunk at work, or driving drunk, or needing a drink in the morning to avoid withdrawal symptoms. the disease of alcoholism is multifaceted and progressive, and has physical as well as emotional and social symptoms.
what would happen if you asked him to not have alcohol when you're out to dinner one night? what would happen if you suggested a new restaurant that didn't have a wine list and didn't allow outside bottles brought in? if he was able to agree readily to either one of those scenarios without endless debate or resentment or outright refusal then i would say that his alcohol problems are, while not ideal, probably manageable in their current state.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:17 AM on August 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
- the fact that he apparently has, prepared already for discussion, a list of reasons why he's not actually an alcoholic
- the fact that he pressures you to drink when you don't want to
- it seems like he doesn't feel he can legitimately enjoy an occasion that is meant to be enjoyable by its own merit (dining with loved one, spending time with loved one, etc) without having alcohol be a part of it?
- the fact that you are wholly resigned to the fact, as though it is normal and unremarkable, that he will be verbally abusive to you when he's "proper drunk"
- the fact that he cites your lack of personal experience with alcoholism as a sign that he doesn't have a problem with alcohol
it is unfortunate that many people in general seem to believe that alcoholism is only getting falling down drunk always, or being drunk at work, or driving drunk, or needing a drink in the morning to avoid withdrawal symptoms. the disease of alcoholism is multifaceted and progressive, and has physical as well as emotional and social symptoms.
what would happen if you asked him to not have alcohol when you're out to dinner one night? what would happen if you suggested a new restaurant that didn't have a wine list and didn't allow outside bottles brought in? if he was able to agree readily to either one of those scenarios without endless debate or resentment or outright refusal then i would say that his alcohol problems are, while not ideal, probably manageable in their current state.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:17 AM on August 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
I agree with you that he has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. It seems that drinking is too important to him. He's willing to indulge even at the expense to your relationship. And even though he's putting the children in his care at risk. His reasoning just sounds like rationalization and self-justifications to me. Alcohol has too much control over him; he needs it too much. You are correct to be concerned.
posted by conrad53 at 11:25 AM on August 17, 2016
posted by conrad53 at 11:25 AM on August 17, 2016
Best answer: but drinking socially as an adult is new to me and I feel like there are many unspoken rules around it.
as for this, i agree that it's a potential minefield of annoying and embarrassing conversations, but it's not because what you want (to not drink) is weird or wrong or socially inept or low-class or whatever. it's a fucking minefield because sometimes people are rude and pushy when it comes to what they feel is you being judgmental about their personal choices. it's hard for some people to separate their own feelings about alcohol, conscious or subconscious, from the projected feelings of others, and they might feel like you saying no makes you look like you're acting superior (you're not) or calling them a drunk (you're not) or whatever.
you're not the one being awkward in any of these situations, i promise you. it's 100% okay to say, as an adult with personal preferences that are in no way remarkable, "i don't like the taste of wine, i'm not interested in having any, thanks for offering though!"
posted by poffin boffin at 11:38 AM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
as for this, i agree that it's a potential minefield of annoying and embarrassing conversations, but it's not because what you want (to not drink) is weird or wrong or socially inept or low-class or whatever. it's a fucking minefield because sometimes people are rude and pushy when it comes to what they feel is you being judgmental about their personal choices. it's hard for some people to separate their own feelings about alcohol, conscious or subconscious, from the projected feelings of others, and they might feel like you saying no makes you look like you're acting superior (you're not) or calling them a drunk (you're not) or whatever.
you're not the one being awkward in any of these situations, i promise you. it's 100% okay to say, as an adult with personal preferences that are in no way remarkable, "i don't like the taste of wine, i'm not interested in having any, thanks for offering though!"
posted by poffin boffin at 11:38 AM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Being drunk while sole carer for eight year olds is irresponsible in the extreme. It's so not a cultural thing, what crap. It's not about driving, it's about a competent adult being there to guard the children and make adult decisions in an emergency.
It's dangerous for eight year olds to be by themselves overnight (and in the US it would be grounds for a re-assessment of custody), and if the sole adult is incapacitated by alcohol, the kids are essentially alone.
That behaviour by itself would be enough for me to end the relationship.
In any case, you don't need to officially determine whether your partner is alcoholic in order to know that his behaviour is problematic to you. He's extremely unlikely to change, and if you go ahead with plans to live together, I only see things getting worse.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 12:20 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's dangerous for eight year olds to be by themselves overnight (and in the US it would be grounds for a re-assessment of custody), and if the sole adult is incapacitated by alcohol, the kids are essentially alone.
That behaviour by itself would be enough for me to end the relationship.
In any case, you don't need to officially determine whether your partner is alcoholic in order to know that his behaviour is problematic to you. He's extremely unlikely to change, and if you go ahead with plans to live together, I only see things getting worse.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 12:20 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for these great responses; they are really helping validate my feelings and giving me insight into how he might see this situation. A few things, for clarity:
- I'm not anti-drinking and have no problem with him drinking occasionally - a couple drinks, 2-3 times a week - totally fine. The issue is, it seems to matter to HIM if I choose not to drink. He doesn't pressure me, but he LIKES it when I join him in a drink. He feels on some level like I'm judging him or being a stick in the mud otherwise. Now I'm seeing that that says more about him than me.
- When sober, he is a genuinely awesome person - thoughtful, respectful, caring, a good dad. When drunk, he is not sloppy, sick, angry, or belligerent, but he becomes a more sarcastic, biting version of himself. This isn’t ok, but I think he could handle the situation just fine if his kids woke up. Note – I don’t know exactly how often this happens when the kids are with him but it’s not a weekly occurrence. It’s maybe once a month.
- Contrary to how it may sound, his world does not revolve around alcohol. He does not drink every single night. We see each other about twice a week, and most of those nights, there is zero drinking or maybe 1 drink if we go out for dinner. It’s when he comes home from work and has no plans that he unwinds with a drink or two (and about once a week it goes overboard). But he does not, in any way that I can see, arrange his life around alcohol. If we had no plans and he was about to open a bottle of wine and I called him and said, hey I’m free, let’s go catch a movie – he would absolutely, without hesitation, put the wine away and jump in the car.
posted by puppet du sock at 1:09 PM on August 17, 2016
- I'm not anti-drinking and have no problem with him drinking occasionally - a couple drinks, 2-3 times a week - totally fine. The issue is, it seems to matter to HIM if I choose not to drink. He doesn't pressure me, but he LIKES it when I join him in a drink. He feels on some level like I'm judging him or being a stick in the mud otherwise. Now I'm seeing that that says more about him than me.
- When sober, he is a genuinely awesome person - thoughtful, respectful, caring, a good dad. When drunk, he is not sloppy, sick, angry, or belligerent, but he becomes a more sarcastic, biting version of himself. This isn’t ok, but I think he could handle the situation just fine if his kids woke up. Note – I don’t know exactly how often this happens when the kids are with him but it’s not a weekly occurrence. It’s maybe once a month.
- Contrary to how it may sound, his world does not revolve around alcohol. He does not drink every single night. We see each other about twice a week, and most of those nights, there is zero drinking or maybe 1 drink if we go out for dinner. It’s when he comes home from work and has no plans that he unwinds with a drink or two (and about once a week it goes overboard). But he does not, in any way that I can see, arrange his life around alcohol. If we had no plans and he was about to open a bottle of wine and I called him and said, hey I’m free, let’s go catch a movie – he would absolutely, without hesitation, put the wine away and jump in the car.
posted by puppet du sock at 1:09 PM on August 17, 2016
Look. You can accept that this dude drinks more than you are used to, and learn to communicate about it in a less values-laden way (from both directions!), or you can DTMFA. You can't make him not drink.
You have to decide whether it's more important to you to be with this particular dude, or to be with someone who seldom if ever touches alcohol.
posted by Sara C. at 1:29 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
You have to decide whether it's more important to you to be with this particular dude, or to be with someone who seldom if ever touches alcohol.
posted by Sara C. at 1:29 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Sara C, your response is fascinating because it very much illustrates my problem, which poffin boffin eloquently articulated:
it's hard for some people to separate their own feelings about alcohol, conscious or subconscious, from the projected feelings of others, and they might feel like you saying no makes you look like you're acting superior (you're not) or calling them a drunk (you're not) or whatever.
I said: "for me it’s a waste of both calories and money" and you saw that as judgemental...yet I was only explaining my OWN reasons not to drink. I have no desire to police my BF's caloric intake or his spending - he's well capable of that. But for some reason he still feels my not drinking reflects on him somehow.
posted by puppet du sock at 1:32 PM on August 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
it's hard for some people to separate their own feelings about alcohol, conscious or subconscious, from the projected feelings of others, and they might feel like you saying no makes you look like you're acting superior (you're not) or calling them a drunk (you're not) or whatever.
I said: "for me it’s a waste of both calories and money" and you saw that as judgemental...yet I was only explaining my OWN reasons not to drink. I have no desire to police my BF's caloric intake or his spending - he's well capable of that. But for some reason he still feels my not drinking reflects on him somehow.
posted by puppet du sock at 1:32 PM on August 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best answer: It's a minor thought considering the scope of your question, but I have one idea about the pressure to drink wine at a nice dinner: would you ordering sparkling water or a virgin cocktail be a good compromise?
Maybe for him it's not about the alcohol, it's about doing something a little different to make the occasion festive, opting for something other than "just" the default. When I didn't want to drink, sparkling water used to be a special-occasion indulgence for me (until I moved in with a soda stream).
posted by itesser at 2:12 PM on August 17, 2016
Maybe for him it's not about the alcohol, it's about doing something a little different to make the occasion festive, opting for something other than "just" the default. When I didn't want to drink, sparkling water used to be a special-occasion indulgence for me (until I moved in with a soda stream).
posted by itesser at 2:12 PM on August 17, 2016
He wants you to drink with him so that his drinking feels more acceptable to him, so he's less confronted with the idea that he can't not drink.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:23 PM on August 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:23 PM on August 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
Best answer: His level of alcohol consumption sounds fine. The idea that being the sole caretaker of a child means you should never drink (or never drink enough to not be able to drive) effectively means single parents ought to never drink, which--if you are someone who enjoys occasionally drinking--seems like totally structuring a parent's life around the child in a way that is probably unhealthy to both the adult and the child. My mom had very moralistic attitudes about alcohol, and that fucked me up a lot more than seeing my dad drink a couple of beers every night.
However, his drinking bothers you, which is the bigger issue. You both need to decide what your respective bottom line is, and negotiate around that. It doesn't matter what AskMe thinks - only you two can change your behaviour and feelings. If he doesn't want to change his habits, bringing him a thread of strangers agreeing with you is not going to help that conversation.
Here's a thought experiment: if his drinking habits continued this way (and never got worse) for three years, five years, indefinitely - would you be okay with it? If not, what would you be okay with? Is he willing to compromise to that level? If not, what level would he be okay with? That's the conversation that you need to have, and not whether there is objectively a problem.
Aside: I have mostly only ever dated people who were complete teetotalers. I am currently married to someone who is not. I drank a lot less when I had partners who didn't drink, and drink a lot more with my husband because we enjoy it as a shared activity (by which I mean, a beer or two with dinner 4-5 times a week, maybe more if we're going out with friends but one of us is usually DD-ing). Whether I had a beer or a glass of wine with dinner by myself or not was never an issue with my previous relationships, but I do find being with someone who has a compatible level of alcohol consumption as me is, well, more enjoyable. As itesser says, it's about feeling like you're sharing in a celebration or an experience, and I didn't realize until I started dating someone who did drink that it was something I missed.
posted by Phire at 3:36 PM on August 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
However, his drinking bothers you, which is the bigger issue. You both need to decide what your respective bottom line is, and negotiate around that. It doesn't matter what AskMe thinks - only you two can change your behaviour and feelings. If he doesn't want to change his habits, bringing him a thread of strangers agreeing with you is not going to help that conversation.
Here's a thought experiment: if his drinking habits continued this way (and never got worse) for three years, five years, indefinitely - would you be okay with it? If not, what would you be okay with? Is he willing to compromise to that level? If not, what level would he be okay with? That's the conversation that you need to have, and not whether there is objectively a problem.
Aside: I have mostly only ever dated people who were complete teetotalers. I am currently married to someone who is not. I drank a lot less when I had partners who didn't drink, and drink a lot more with my husband because we enjoy it as a shared activity (by which I mean, a beer or two with dinner 4-5 times a week, maybe more if we're going out with friends but one of us is usually DD-ing). Whether I had a beer or a glass of wine with dinner by myself or not was never an issue with my previous relationships, but I do find being with someone who has a compatible level of alcohol consumption as me is, well, more enjoyable. As itesser says, it's about feeling like you're sharing in a celebration or an experience, and I didn't realize until I started dating someone who did drink that it was something I missed.
posted by Phire at 3:36 PM on August 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best answer: it seems to matter to HIM if I choose not to drink. He doesn't pressure me, but he LIKES it when I join him in a drink.
And that's difficult. You need to sort out if that's a kind of pressure (he's making his disappointment visible) or if it's more that you're reading it that way. Just one thought-- maybe he seems happy when you order a glass of wine because he's been worrying that you've been judging him. Since it sounds like you're happy in other ways, is it possible that you're both sitting there at the restaurant being worried about the other person not liking each other's choices? It's maybe not the case, but possibly worth exploring?
There are so many cultural and religious differences when it comes to alcohol consumption. My US friends can cite units and guidelines and wine with dinner is an occasional thing. My Dutch family/friends would not have dinner without wine or beer but never got drunk. My Swedish friends find it normal to toss back alcohol at a rate which would leave me hungover the whole week. In Asia, Hong Kong people find me a roaring alcoholic for a nightly glass of wine with my meal. I really wouldn't try to decide if he's okay. I would put more focus on deciding if you're okay with who and how he is. That's the only thing that counts.
posted by frumiousb at 5:17 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
And that's difficult. You need to sort out if that's a kind of pressure (he's making his disappointment visible) or if it's more that you're reading it that way. Just one thought-- maybe he seems happy when you order a glass of wine because he's been worrying that you've been judging him. Since it sounds like you're happy in other ways, is it possible that you're both sitting there at the restaurant being worried about the other person not liking each other's choices? It's maybe not the case, but possibly worth exploring?
There are so many cultural and religious differences when it comes to alcohol consumption. My US friends can cite units and guidelines and wine with dinner is an occasional thing. My Dutch family/friends would not have dinner without wine or beer but never got drunk. My Swedish friends find it normal to toss back alcohol at a rate which would leave me hungover the whole week. In Asia, Hong Kong people find me a roaring alcoholic for a nightly glass of wine with my meal. I really wouldn't try to decide if he's okay. I would put more focus on deciding if you're okay with who and how he is. That's the only thing that counts.
posted by frumiousb at 5:17 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is nothing wrong with tying one on with the kids in bed. Or, at eight, with the kids not in bed. People with views otherwise should explain about their first-hand experience with eight-year-olds who went through unnecessary trauma because a caregiver was soused late at night? I think you are getting weird perspectives from people who do not even have children.
Some people seem to be taking it to mean he drinks to the point of passing out dead drunk, etc. I do not think this is the case for a man who is a regular drinker and having a bottle of wine with a whisky or two. He can't drive at that point, but neither can lots of people at all times, and presumably there are friends he can telephone etc should he need emergency assistance with the kids.
Who are eight. This is not, like, the several years I spent single and sober because you never knew when you would be needing to change a diaper or tending to a waking or whatever. An eight-year-old can be left to their own devices quite a bit -- if somebody wakes hungry they can certainly get a snack without help and get back to bed on their own.
I regularly have my streets' parents over to drink beer in my gazebo. I am trying to think of what sort of disaster could befall any of the kids that would be even more of a crisis because we were drinking beer, and I am not able to. If there is an injury, either it is terrible, and I am calling for an ambulance, or it is not so terrible, and somebody is going down the block to fetch a sober neighbour to drive.
The only concern I'd have is that he is an unpleasant drunk. I only have cheerful drunks in the gazebo. We have a "grown-ups' junk food = childrens' junk food" rule and the kids get chips and pop while we have our beer; all ages look forward to this. If he drinks around his kids and turns into a bad drunk around his kids, that is the sort of thing bad childhoods are made out of. But if he is just tying one on while they're in bed, I don't see that as an issue. Enormous swathes of the world are terrible, terrible parents (grandparents, aunts, uncles, the lot of them!) if you are never ever allowed to be tipsy with a child in the house. Child protection workers must have extremely busy New Years' Eves...
posted by kmennie at 6:21 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Some people seem to be taking it to mean he drinks to the point of passing out dead drunk, etc. I do not think this is the case for a man who is a regular drinker and having a bottle of wine with a whisky or two. He can't drive at that point, but neither can lots of people at all times, and presumably there are friends he can telephone etc should he need emergency assistance with the kids.
Who are eight. This is not, like, the several years I spent single and sober because you never knew when you would be needing to change a diaper or tending to a waking or whatever. An eight-year-old can be left to their own devices quite a bit -- if somebody wakes hungry they can certainly get a snack without help and get back to bed on their own.
I regularly have my streets' parents over to drink beer in my gazebo. I am trying to think of what sort of disaster could befall any of the kids that would be even more of a crisis because we were drinking beer, and I am not able to. If there is an injury, either it is terrible, and I am calling for an ambulance, or it is not so terrible, and somebody is going down the block to fetch a sober neighbour to drive.
The only concern I'd have is that he is an unpleasant drunk. I only have cheerful drunks in the gazebo. We have a "grown-ups' junk food = childrens' junk food" rule and the kids get chips and pop while we have our beer; all ages look forward to this. If he drinks around his kids and turns into a bad drunk around his kids, that is the sort of thing bad childhoods are made out of. But if he is just tying one on while they're in bed, I don't see that as an issue. Enormous swathes of the world are terrible, terrible parents (grandparents, aunts, uncles, the lot of them!) if you are never ever allowed to be tipsy with a child in the house. Child protection workers must have extremely busy New Years' Eves...
posted by kmennie at 6:21 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
When sober, he is a genuinely awesome person - thoughtful, respectful, caring, a good dad. When drunk, he is not sloppy, sick, angry, or belligerent, but he becomes a more sarcastic, biting version of himself.
This, seems to me, to be a big problem and something that, if you want to stay in the relationship, would have to be fixed.
Also being drunk when you are the sole caretaker of kids is bad fucking parenting. Full stop.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:35 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
This, seems to me, to be a big problem and something that, if you want to stay in the relationship, would have to be fixed.
Also being drunk when you are the sole caretaker of kids is bad fucking parenting. Full stop.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:35 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
His drinking does not sound super unhealthy to me. It is not unusual to want people who are with you to drink with you because it is FUN to get tipsy with another person. It is not very healthy to drink a lot one night a week but it is not particularly indicative of anything other than enjoying the effects of alcohol, which is not the same thing as being an alcoholic.
The idea that people taking care of sleeping children shouldn't get drunk is pretty funny to me, and not my observation of most adults I know who drink (and this is upper-middle++ class if we're going to bring class into it). I mean, you can judge people as bad parents I guess but most people I know who drink have done this. Living in places where you do not have to drive (and don't even own a car) probably factors to some extent. Also, people who drink regularly, even when they drink a lot, if it is over the course of several hours they are unlikely to be completely incapacitated. They're altered, they're slowed, but it wears off quickly.
His getting mean when drunk is not awesome. Ultimately, though, you don't sound comfortable dating a drinker, so maybe this just isn't the right guy for you.
posted by ch1x0r at 6:49 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The idea that people taking care of sleeping children shouldn't get drunk is pretty funny to me, and not my observation of most adults I know who drink (and this is upper-middle++ class if we're going to bring class into it). I mean, you can judge people as bad parents I guess but most people I know who drink have done this. Living in places where you do not have to drive (and don't even own a car) probably factors to some extent. Also, people who drink regularly, even when they drink a lot, if it is over the course of several hours they are unlikely to be completely incapacitated. They're altered, they're slowed, but it wears off quickly.
His getting mean when drunk is not awesome. Ultimately, though, you don't sound comfortable dating a drinker, so maybe this just isn't the right guy for you.
posted by ch1x0r at 6:49 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I like to drink from time to time and enjoy it quite a bit. I am not uncomfortable with someone having a couple glasses of wine most nights, and the occasional additional drinking after the kids are asleep does not (in and of itself) particularly worry me.
The pressure you feel to have a drink with him worries me. Even if we were to stipulate that the feelings of embarrassment are "just you being sensitive" (or some such), it would still worry me at least a little. Also, I doubt that is entirely the case. I have known quite a few people who, for whatever reason, like to pressure people to drink (or drink more, or whatever). Even though I like to drink, that kind of behavior makes me very uncomfortable.
What really worries me is your statement about what happens on nights when he has more than a couple drinks: "He becomes sarcastic, biting, overblown."
When I have a lot to drink, I tend to get mushy and wax nostalgic about old times and my grandparents. Even then, I don't think having a lot to drink is a great idea. But for people who get nasty when they drink? *That* I find scary. If I've had a lot to drink and something serious comes up, I can stop being sappy and try to take care of it. But no-one I've known who gets mean/angry when they're drunk has been able to snap out of *that* when the situation calls for it. This kind of thing has caused a lot of trouble for a lot of my friends (be they the drinkers or the significant others).
So, I don't know... Your friend sounds like a mixed bag. I'm not sure he "drinks too much" per se, but it sounds like his relationship with alcohol might not be compatible with having a healthy relationship with you.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:00 PM on August 17, 2016
The pressure you feel to have a drink with him worries me. Even if we were to stipulate that the feelings of embarrassment are "just you being sensitive" (or some such), it would still worry me at least a little. Also, I doubt that is entirely the case. I have known quite a few people who, for whatever reason, like to pressure people to drink (or drink more, or whatever). Even though I like to drink, that kind of behavior makes me very uncomfortable.
What really worries me is your statement about what happens on nights when he has more than a couple drinks: "He becomes sarcastic, biting, overblown."
When I have a lot to drink, I tend to get mushy and wax nostalgic about old times and my grandparents. Even then, I don't think having a lot to drink is a great idea. But for people who get nasty when they drink? *That* I find scary. If I've had a lot to drink and something serious comes up, I can stop being sappy and try to take care of it. But no-one I've known who gets mean/angry when they're drunk has been able to snap out of *that* when the situation calls for it. This kind of thing has caused a lot of trouble for a lot of my friends (be they the drinkers or the significant others).
So, I don't know... Your friend sounds like a mixed bag. I'm not sure he "drinks too much" per se, but it sounds like his relationship with alcohol might not be compatible with having a healthy relationship with you.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:00 PM on August 17, 2016
Re: The kids thing. I was a single parent, and my kid's father was totally out of the picture. I would fairly regularly have a beer or two (or three!) after he went to bed, with the reasoning that if things got bad enough in the middle of the night that he had to go to the hospital right away, I was going to have to call an ambulance anyway.
The meanness is the only thing that would raise a red flag for me. But only you can really say what's OK and what isn't for you.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:05 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
The meanness is the only thing that would raise a red flag for me. But only you can really say what's OK and what isn't for you.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:05 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would find it disturbing if someone got drunk, really drunk, while the sole caretaker for kids, and this would make me not want to move in with them. I'm not talking about "someone had a couple of glasses of wine but could pull it together if little Jimmie got out of bed with the stomach flu", I'm talking about drunk enough to have impaired judgment and behavior changes, which it seems like this guy does. I would worry about if there were a tornado, fire, family emergency, fall down the stairs, etc and the parent could not deal with it. I would worry about frightening the kids if they heard him banging around drunkenly. I think that's a culturally moderated but pretty reasonable limit to have - an adult who has had a couple of glasses of wine may not be safe to drive but he has the judgment to deal with an emergency, find a driver if one is needed, etc; an adult who is really drunk may not recognize an emergency.
The rest of it - I think he's imperiling his health by drinking that much, but I just imperiled my health with a moderate bowl of ice cream, so whatever.
posted by Frowner at 7:10 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
The rest of it - I think he's imperiling his health by drinking that much, but I just imperiled my health with a moderate bowl of ice cream, so whatever.
posted by Frowner at 7:10 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Having read the remainder of the thread, I would like to add a few details:
1) Under US/NIH/NIAAA guidelines, one "standard drink" is 5 fl oz of 12% ABV wine or 1.5 fl oz of 80 proof hard liquor. A regular bottle of wine contains 750 mL = 25.4 oz = 5 standard drinks.
2) Under US/NIAAA guidelines, "binge drinking," for a male of "typical" mass, means drinking 5 or more standard drinks in the period of two hours. This threshold is quite a bit lower than in much of the rest of the world.
3) The degree of "refinement" of what one drinks counts for nothing. The amount of alcohol consumed combined with one's mass, tolerance, and reaction to alcohol is what matters.
4) A dram, by volume, is 0.125 fl oz. By this standard, two drams of 80 proof liquor amounts to a little less than 1/6 of a standard drink. By way of contrast, a "shot", in the US, usually means 1.5 fl oz but can vary between 1 and 3 fl oz.
5) It is almost inconceivable that a person who says he drinks "a dram or two" of liquor means that he drinks between 0.125 and 0.25 fl oz of liquor.
6) For someone who habitually drinks "two glasses" of wine most every night, it is rather unlikely that drinking one bottle of wine plus 0.25 fl oz of 80 proof liquor throughout the course of an evening will render that person "drunk".
I'm not sure of the net effect of these observations, but I thought I'd make them nonetheless.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:35 PM on August 17, 2016
1) Under US/NIH/NIAAA guidelines, one "standard drink" is 5 fl oz of 12% ABV wine or 1.5 fl oz of 80 proof hard liquor. A regular bottle of wine contains 750 mL = 25.4 oz = 5 standard drinks.
2) Under US/NIAAA guidelines, "binge drinking," for a male of "typical" mass, means drinking 5 or more standard drinks in the period of two hours. This threshold is quite a bit lower than in much of the rest of the world.
3) The degree of "refinement" of what one drinks counts for nothing. The amount of alcohol consumed combined with one's mass, tolerance, and reaction to alcohol is what matters.
4) A dram, by volume, is 0.125 fl oz. By this standard, two drams of 80 proof liquor amounts to a little less than 1/6 of a standard drink. By way of contrast, a "shot", in the US, usually means 1.5 fl oz but can vary between 1 and 3 fl oz.
5) It is almost inconceivable that a person who says he drinks "a dram or two" of liquor means that he drinks between 0.125 and 0.25 fl oz of liquor.
6) For someone who habitually drinks "two glasses" of wine most every night, it is rather unlikely that drinking one bottle of wine plus 0.25 fl oz of 80 proof liquor throughout the course of an evening will render that person "drunk".
I'm not sure of the net effect of these observations, but I thought I'd make them nonetheless.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:35 PM on August 17, 2016
Response by poster: Juffo-Wup: right - he calls it a dram but I've watched him pour his scotch and it's more like 1.5-2 oz. Sorry, I should have been more clear. So it's more like a bottle of wine plus two shots.
posted by puppet du sock at 7:45 PM on August 17, 2016
posted by puppet du sock at 7:45 PM on August 17, 2016
Oh, not criticizing at all. Just trying to put the quantifiable parts of the situation in quantifiable units. It doesn't always help, but sometimes it helps clarify things.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:49 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:49 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, I disclosed a similar amount of drinking to my psychiatrist (trained/certified in substance addiction) who specifically told me she would let me know if my drinking was a problem. She seemed wholly unconcerned by that amount as long as it didn't negatively impact my life (a fairly big and open-ended caveat, true). So that's something to consider, at least.
posted by naju at 10:44 PM on August 17, 2016
posted by naju at 10:44 PM on August 17, 2016
Best answer: I think you are getting weird perspectives from people who do not even have children.
Don't discount that some of us may have been that 8 year old with a parent who could not hold their drink. It's not relaxing with 1 beer. It's getting drunk. Like someone said above, a drunk adult (particularly a not-very-pleasant one) as the only adult in the house can be pretty scary.
OP, I don't see how this is going to get any better so I would personally leave if he is not responsive to a mature, adult conversation about his behaviour. I would also notify the mother of those kids so she is aware of how he behaves (even if it's 'just' once a month). It's important.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:02 AM on August 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't discount that some of us may have been that 8 year old with a parent who could not hold their drink. It's not relaxing with 1 beer. It's getting drunk. Like someone said above, a drunk adult (particularly a not-very-pleasant one) as the only adult in the house can be pretty scary.
OP, I don't see how this is going to get any better so I would personally leave if he is not responsive to a mature, adult conversation about his behaviour. I would also notify the mother of those kids so she is aware of how he behaves (even if it's 'just' once a month). It's important.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:02 AM on August 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think it sounds like your boyfriend is not at some point where things are clearly at the level of "definitely an alcoholic, it's clearly ruining his life" and also not at the point where "alcohol is a 100% innocuous presence in his life and poses zero issues." So, somewhere on that continuum. Which means ultimately I think it's your judgement call as to what you are comfortable with. Personally the thing that would make me the most uncomfortable is that your boyfriend does not treat you in an okay way when he is drunk. When I'm drunk I get sleepy and affectionate. When my husband gets drunk he laughs a lot and gets super silly. Never have I felt I wasn't safe around him or he was going to treat me badly/meanly (or vice versa). Personally, I don't think alcohol makes you a fundamentally different person than who you are, and if you're drinking to the point where somehow that is the case, ever, I think that's a problem. But, I know not everyone sees it that way. Honestly I think it's your judgement call as to whether you're okay with a partner who does this. The fact that you grew up with a no-drinking culture doesn't mean you don't have the right to your own feelings about what you are okay with!
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:54 AM on August 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:54 AM on August 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
If we’re at a nicer restaurant, I feel a bit of pressure to order a glass of wine even if I don’t want one, because classy people have a glass of wine with a nice dinner. That’s one of the unspoken rules I’m talking about. If I don’t have a drink, I feel like I’m A) bringing down the festive atmosphere and B) embarrassing him somewhat, for not following social norms.
People who have a healthy relationship with alcohol do not care if you are not drinking and make sure to not make you feel uncomfortable for not drinking.
posted by mlis at 9:04 PM on August 19, 2016
People who have a healthy relationship with alcohol do not care if you are not drinking and make sure to not make you feel uncomfortable for not drinking.
posted by mlis at 9:04 PM on August 19, 2016
Hi, I realize I'm chiming in late here. I'm another woman of color, living in Canada, who has dated white men who drink. I want to affirm that the weird pressures you're feeling from your boyfriend are probably real. It's not just that he drinks -- it's that he's so drunk he does not have your back (let alone the kids) in these situations with excessive drinking (which is what he seems to aim for -- to be drunk enough to 'feel happy'). Guess what kinds of other characters come out of the woodwork when someone drinks like that? Guess what kinds of predators come crawling out of the dark to feed in these conditions...
I can't speak for others, but in my own experience as a woman of color trying to fit in with 'white' grade Canadians, the pressure to drink and be vulgar is tremendous -- as if a person can only prove they're civilized by exercising their privileges to absolutely sh*t on others (verbally, mentally, emotionally, etc.) while simultaneously pretending they weren't actually sh*tting on others cuz you know, 'it was the alcohol' or whatever. IME with both family members, friends, strangers, as a child, as an adult, drinking until you can feel good is drinking until you don't care who you hurt while you're "feeling good". Drinking is about making it easier to violate other people's boundaries (if you think I'm kidding, try drinking with Canadian white women -- as an adult I have never been molested by men nearly as much as I have by the toxic white woman who "just needs to get wasted". I find it f*cking gross).
It's especially gross from white-skinned westerners who appear to revel in their glory over how brown-skinned people are too primitive to "appreciate" getting drunk, molesting others, and pretending you don't have to feel bad about it. It's not just your boyfriend's behaviors that are tipping off your radar -- it's every ugly, bad, gross thing that alcohol allows into a person's life, particularly under the circumstances of "I need to do this to feel good". I'm a woman of color living in Canada. Every sibling, cousin, and friend I cared about (during a particular isolated chapter of childhood in this country) were violated by white men who "needed" to drink... sorry, but much like they "needed" to do what they did to kids. I'm not saying that's your boyfriend because there is definitely a spectrum of ugly behaviors associated with alcohol... However, for that reason, I do not partake in the pressure of Western culture to drink to prove how civilized I am. I like it when the kids in my family sleep well because they feel safe with the adults in their home. It would help if people with white skin stop assuming people of color believe that all white people are so safe and wonderful to be around, even as drunks. It's not easy, and you can probably do better. That's my two cents. Best of luck, puppet du sock.
posted by human ecologist at 10:27 AM on August 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't speak for others, but in my own experience as a woman of color trying to fit in with 'white' grade Canadians, the pressure to drink and be vulgar is tremendous -- as if a person can only prove they're civilized by exercising their privileges to absolutely sh*t on others (verbally, mentally, emotionally, etc.) while simultaneously pretending they weren't actually sh*tting on others cuz you know, 'it was the alcohol' or whatever. IME with both family members, friends, strangers, as a child, as an adult, drinking until you can feel good is drinking until you don't care who you hurt while you're "feeling good". Drinking is about making it easier to violate other people's boundaries (if you think I'm kidding, try drinking with Canadian white women -- as an adult I have never been molested by men nearly as much as I have by the toxic white woman who "just needs to get wasted". I find it f*cking gross).
It's especially gross from white-skinned westerners who appear to revel in their glory over how brown-skinned people are too primitive to "appreciate" getting drunk, molesting others, and pretending you don't have to feel bad about it. It's not just your boyfriend's behaviors that are tipping off your radar -- it's every ugly, bad, gross thing that alcohol allows into a person's life, particularly under the circumstances of "I need to do this to feel good". I'm a woman of color living in Canada. Every sibling, cousin, and friend I cared about (during a particular isolated chapter of childhood in this country) were violated by white men who "needed" to drink... sorry, but much like they "needed" to do what they did to kids. I'm not saying that's your boyfriend because there is definitely a spectrum of ugly behaviors associated with alcohol... However, for that reason, I do not partake in the pressure of Western culture to drink to prove how civilized I am. I like it when the kids in my family sleep well because they feel safe with the adults in their home. It would help if people with white skin stop assuming people of color believe that all white people are so safe and wonderful to be around, even as drunks. It's not easy, and you can probably do better. That's my two cents. Best of luck, puppet du sock.
posted by human ecologist at 10:27 AM on August 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
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posted by efalk at 4:00 AM on August 17, 2016 [16 favorites]