How to support an abusive friend?
June 14, 2016 11:06 PM Subscribe
I have a long-term friend who recently assaulted someone at a party. My peer group has basically cut them off at this point. Is there any way to be a good ally AND a good friend or am I going to have to choose sides and end one of the longest relationships in my life?
They have always had a problem with over-drinking and drugs, which has got worse as we have gotten older, to the point where friends had to have an intervention of sorts, as their behavior had begun to cross the line into harassment. However, after this most recent episode, where they assaulted and groped someone at a late after party most of my peer group has seen this as the last straw and ostracized them completely.
I agree 100% that this person is likely a threat and should not be welcome in spaces our peer group are trying to make safe, especially for women. At the same time, I am still worried about one of my oldest friends, and worried that being cut off from all our friends, being barred from all of the local bars, and generally being treated as a pariah is only going to make things worse for their substance abuse issues. I've always assumed I would have zero tolerance for people who are creeps to women, until I actually had to test myself, and have found myself lacking.
Selfishly, I don't want people to assume I am alright with someone who has been abusive to women, and I don't want to put the women in my life through the pain of being in parties/bars with someone who is known to have been a total creep. On the other hand, I want to support my friend and help them become a decent human being, assuming that is even possible.
Most advice I've been reading deals with helping people get out of abusive relationships, or with cutting abusers out of their life. None of it has really dealt with trying to help someone stop patterns of abuse in their lives. Should I just follow everyone's lead and cut them off until they demonstrate they can exist in public without being a threat? Is it even possible for people to move from assaulter to ally?
They have always had a problem with over-drinking and drugs, which has got worse as we have gotten older, to the point where friends had to have an intervention of sorts, as their behavior had begun to cross the line into harassment. However, after this most recent episode, where they assaulted and groped someone at a late after party most of my peer group has seen this as the last straw and ostracized them completely.
I agree 100% that this person is likely a threat and should not be welcome in spaces our peer group are trying to make safe, especially for women. At the same time, I am still worried about one of my oldest friends, and worried that being cut off from all our friends, being barred from all of the local bars, and generally being treated as a pariah is only going to make things worse for their substance abuse issues. I've always assumed I would have zero tolerance for people who are creeps to women, until I actually had to test myself, and have found myself lacking.
Selfishly, I don't want people to assume I am alright with someone who has been abusive to women, and I don't want to put the women in my life through the pain of being in parties/bars with someone who is known to have been a total creep. On the other hand, I want to support my friend and help them become a decent human being, assuming that is even possible.
Most advice I've been reading deals with helping people get out of abusive relationships, or with cutting abusers out of their life. None of it has really dealt with trying to help someone stop patterns of abuse in their lives. Should I just follow everyone's lead and cut them off until they demonstrate they can exist in public without being a threat? Is it even possible for people to move from assaulter to ally?
Isn't the idea of isolation to make them see the consequences of their action and to get help? The very feeling of rock bottom to inspire (?) seeking help or continuing on their road of destruction?
I thought the idea was that once they're on their way back, you reassess friendship, but no tolerance till then. That would be my response. It's not pick pocketing, it's abuse. I have zero tolerance till it's treated. Regardless of substances etc.
Then when /if they're doing better, allow them to make amends with you. And only you. If they choose. People they abused are allowed to hate and avoid them forever and there can be no expectation of them to accept redemption.
You can forgive, but not absolve nor enable. /my thoughts.
posted by taff at 12:14 AM on June 15, 2016 [23 favorites]
I thought the idea was that once they're on their way back, you reassess friendship, but no tolerance till then. That would be my response. It's not pick pocketing, it's abuse. I have zero tolerance till it's treated. Regardless of substances etc.
Then when /if they're doing better, allow them to make amends with you. And only you. If they choose. People they abused are allowed to hate and avoid them forever and there can be no expectation of them to accept redemption.
You can forgive, but not absolve nor enable. /my thoughts.
posted by taff at 12:14 AM on June 15, 2016 [23 favorites]
I would not expect this person to become an ally (what does that even mean here? An ally to whom?). It may in fact be too much to expect them to become a decent person. The question is, do you want to hang with someone who isn't a decent person? I would not, but I'm not you.
Can you support them without hanging with them? internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 gives some good options.
Are you actually alright with this person? I can't tell from your question. You may in fact not know this yourself. That might be the first thing you need to find out. Is this someone you want to be a friend to, after the way they've been acting? We can't tell you that.
You could tell them that you'll be there for them again once they show the willingness to work on themselves. If that is the case.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:24 AM on June 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
Can you support them without hanging with them? internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 gives some good options.
Are you actually alright with this person? I can't tell from your question. You may in fact not know this yourself. That might be the first thing you need to find out. Is this someone you want to be a friend to, after the way they've been acting? We can't tell you that.
You could tell them that you'll be there for them again once they show the willingness to work on themselves. If that is the case.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:24 AM on June 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
You agree that what your friend did is unacceptable. Is he willing to seek help? Does he acknowledge that his actions were out of line? Does he recognize that he needs help to address the underlying problem that made him act that way? If he is willing to seek help, then he will need friends. Not friends who condone his behaviour or pretend that it didn't happen. Friends who will deliver tough love but stand by him while he works through his issues. It is possible to remain friends with him while condemning his behaviour. Possible, but tough.
It's nuanced. It's difficult. I think that everyone deserves a second chance. As long as they're willing to admit that what they did was wrong, and are taking steps to make sure it never happens again. Sometimes people need help and support to get to the point of seeking help and taking those steps. Being there and supporting someone while they take those steps is tough, and it's difficult to find the line between supporting them and condoning their behavior. I've never been in a situation with a good friend where I would have to make this choice. I don't honestly know if I could. Good luck. Do what you feel is right.
posted by finding.perdita at 1:27 AM on June 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
It's nuanced. It's difficult. I think that everyone deserves a second chance. As long as they're willing to admit that what they did was wrong, and are taking steps to make sure it never happens again. Sometimes people need help and support to get to the point of seeking help and taking those steps. Being there and supporting someone while they take those steps is tough, and it's difficult to find the line between supporting them and condoning their behavior. I've never been in a situation with a good friend where I would have to make this choice. I don't honestly know if I could. Good luck. Do what you feel is right.
posted by finding.perdita at 1:27 AM on June 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
Hey, here are some search terms for you:
Community accountability
Transformative justice
Accountability process
I know a lot of survivors of harassment & abuse in the punk scene (I guess I am one as well) who don't necessarily believe that their abuser should just be cut off, ostracized and isolated. Even though they may need healing space and boundaries to be respected by that person, they recognize the role of social support in hopefully changing that person's behavior for the better.
I was reading an article about sex offender registries and their effect on the families of sex offenders recently; it mentioned that the wives of people who have committed sexual abuse are often doing unpaid rehabilitation work, and that strong social ties and relationships play a huge role in whether someone goes on to commit more crimes.
There are a lot of people on this world that everyone wants to write off; but here's the thing, those people don't disappear. We have to deal with them in some way as a society. Just ignoring them isn't enough. People who are in danger from this person have no obligation to keep them in their lives or their social circle, but if you are clear in your intentions to aid this person in an accountability process rather than enabling their abuse, I think it's commendable that you want to stay in this person's life.
posted by Juliet Banana at 1:45 AM on June 15, 2016 [60 favorites]
Community accountability
Transformative justice
Accountability process
I know a lot of survivors of harassment & abuse in the punk scene (I guess I am one as well) who don't necessarily believe that their abuser should just be cut off, ostracized and isolated. Even though they may need healing space and boundaries to be respected by that person, they recognize the role of social support in hopefully changing that person's behavior for the better.
I was reading an article about sex offender registries and their effect on the families of sex offenders recently; it mentioned that the wives of people who have committed sexual abuse are often doing unpaid rehabilitation work, and that strong social ties and relationships play a huge role in whether someone goes on to commit more crimes.
There are a lot of people on this world that everyone wants to write off; but here's the thing, those people don't disappear. We have to deal with them in some way as a society. Just ignoring them isn't enough. People who are in danger from this person have no obligation to keep them in their lives or their social circle, but if you are clear in your intentions to aid this person in an accountability process rather than enabling their abuse, I think it's commendable that you want to stay in this person's life.
posted by Juliet Banana at 1:45 AM on June 15, 2016 [60 favorites]
(We can't assume the abuser is male or binary from the question. It's not stated.)
posted by taff at 1:54 AM on June 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by taff at 1:54 AM on June 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ugh, what a mess. This never goes well, and I don't have a lot of faith in community processes because I've seen a lot of them.
If this were me, I would be asking myself how my friend was responding to this and I would let that be my guide. Does he think what he did was bad? What steps is he taking to deal with the drinking? Is he really taking them or is he just talking about it? Has he apologized to the person he harassed and groped, to the party host and to anyone else involved?
If I could honestly imagine myself saying to people, "I am appalled by what Joe did. He is one of my oldest friends and, because he is [taking steps A,B and C] I am staying in contact with him, recognizing that everyone is within their rights to drop him", I might do it, and I think many people would view that as an acceptable decision. I don't think that someone's close friends staying friends with them after this kind of thing is always terrible, because we don't stop having feelings about someone just because they act like a shit. I think that if he's not doing anything about this problem, staying friends kind of is endorsing it, though.
I have a little experience with this. I did stay friends with someone who did a creepy thing and had some consequences and I also dropped another friend after another thing. With the first guy, he had done something without really getting the full thing about why it was creepy, he was sorry when he started to understand and he pretty much dealt with the consequences. Also, I had known him for a while and I felt like he was not a repeat creeper. (And he hasn't been.) With the other guy, I dropped him because he didn't take any steps. The whole thing was the start of a huge shame spiral and collapse for him, but he survived and moved on. He has continued to struggle with addiction and periodically burn his relationships to the ground over it.
Addiction is really tough to beat and sometimes you have to accept that it destroys friendships. It's horrible, and it's extra horrible when you yourself basically have to make the active choice to murder the friendship. Nothing feels good. I don't feel good about cutting off my addict friend and every time I think of him part of me wants to get in touch. But he had many chances and he really hurt someone I cared about who was very good to him, so I just can't.
What happens IME is that people survive this stuff. Some of them deal with their problems and move on, some of them just find a new social circle. You're looking at this and thinking that if you drop the guy terrible things will happen. They probably won't. He'll have to work through his personal crisis around this stuff and he'll either make some positive changes (even if he doesn't beat all his problems) and rebuild, or he'll find a new social circle and do this again. It's not apocalyptic, nothing so neat or explicable. It's just sad.
I really hear you on being conflicted about how to treat the guy and discovering that when the rubber meets the road moral choices are hard. They are! I think that in progressive/punk/activist/artsy circles, we often talk as though these choices are super obvious and of course everyone who is a good person finds it totally easy to make the right one. And then we're all baffled when this isn't true.
Know that if he's really in the grips of addiction you probably can't do anything, whether you stay his friend or not. That isn't the kind of thing I've ever observed to make a difference. Don't stay his friend to "help" him, because you probably can't.
Again, I'm not saying this isn't horrible, and I think that anyone who treats it as an emotionally obvious thing where you should be unconflicted is being pretty ridiculous.
posted by Frowner at 2:07 AM on June 15, 2016 [16 favorites]
If this were me, I would be asking myself how my friend was responding to this and I would let that be my guide. Does he think what he did was bad? What steps is he taking to deal with the drinking? Is he really taking them or is he just talking about it? Has he apologized to the person he harassed and groped, to the party host and to anyone else involved?
If I could honestly imagine myself saying to people, "I am appalled by what Joe did. He is one of my oldest friends and, because he is [taking steps A,B and C] I am staying in contact with him, recognizing that everyone is within their rights to drop him", I might do it, and I think many people would view that as an acceptable decision. I don't think that someone's close friends staying friends with them after this kind of thing is always terrible, because we don't stop having feelings about someone just because they act like a shit. I think that if he's not doing anything about this problem, staying friends kind of is endorsing it, though.
I have a little experience with this. I did stay friends with someone who did a creepy thing and had some consequences and I also dropped another friend after another thing. With the first guy, he had done something without really getting the full thing about why it was creepy, he was sorry when he started to understand and he pretty much dealt with the consequences. Also, I had known him for a while and I felt like he was not a repeat creeper. (And he hasn't been.) With the other guy, I dropped him because he didn't take any steps. The whole thing was the start of a huge shame spiral and collapse for him, but he survived and moved on. He has continued to struggle with addiction and periodically burn his relationships to the ground over it.
Addiction is really tough to beat and sometimes you have to accept that it destroys friendships. It's horrible, and it's extra horrible when you yourself basically have to make the active choice to murder the friendship. Nothing feels good. I don't feel good about cutting off my addict friend and every time I think of him part of me wants to get in touch. But he had many chances and he really hurt someone I cared about who was very good to him, so I just can't.
What happens IME is that people survive this stuff. Some of them deal with their problems and move on, some of them just find a new social circle. You're looking at this and thinking that if you drop the guy terrible things will happen. They probably won't. He'll have to work through his personal crisis around this stuff and he'll either make some positive changes (even if he doesn't beat all his problems) and rebuild, or he'll find a new social circle and do this again. It's not apocalyptic, nothing so neat or explicable. It's just sad.
I really hear you on being conflicted about how to treat the guy and discovering that when the rubber meets the road moral choices are hard. They are! I think that in progressive/punk/activist/artsy circles, we often talk as though these choices are super obvious and of course everyone who is a good person finds it totally easy to make the right one. And then we're all baffled when this isn't true.
Know that if he's really in the grips of addiction you probably can't do anything, whether you stay his friend or not. That isn't the kind of thing I've ever observed to make a difference. Don't stay his friend to "help" him, because you probably can't.
Again, I'm not saying this isn't horrible, and I think that anyone who treats it as an emotionally obvious thing where you should be unconflicted is being pretty ridiculous.
posted by Frowner at 2:07 AM on June 15, 2016 [16 favorites]
Yeah, well, my son groped someone against her will. While I have a daughter too, I don't believe my son's act in itself makes him not a decent person.
Here's why I think so: (a) he honestly thought she was consenting, and (b) he was horror-stricken when he found she was not. Do either of those apply to your friend? My son resolved to drink less on dates, and actually followed through on that, so he would never be in a position to make that mistake -- and it was a mistake -- again. Has your friend changed his behavior?
If your friend doesn't understand the seriousness of what he has done, especially if he never felt he needed consent in the first place, and has not changed his drinking/drug behavior -- well, how exactly will you "help them become a decent human being" or "stop patterns of abuse in their lives"? They say that if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got -- and that hasn't worked out so well for the woman who crosses your friend's path, has it? You could be a force for good in your friend's life if -- and, I think, only if -- your good opinion is something he values, and understands could be lost.
Is your friend willing to change his life? If not, I don't see how you can realistically be friends with him without effectively enabling this kind of behavior.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 2:12 AM on June 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
Here's why I think so: (a) he honestly thought she was consenting, and (b) he was horror-stricken when he found she was not. Do either of those apply to your friend? My son resolved to drink less on dates, and actually followed through on that, so he would never be in a position to make that mistake -- and it was a mistake -- again. Has your friend changed his behavior?
If your friend doesn't understand the seriousness of what he has done, especially if he never felt he needed consent in the first place, and has not changed his drinking/drug behavior -- well, how exactly will you "help them become a decent human being" or "stop patterns of abuse in their lives"? They say that if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got -- and that hasn't worked out so well for the woman who crosses your friend's path, has it? You could be a force for good in your friend's life if -- and, I think, only if -- your good opinion is something he values, and understands could be lost.
Is your friend willing to change his life? If not, I don't see how you can realistically be friends with him without effectively enabling this kind of behavior.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 2:12 AM on June 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, you can't just write off what happens when people are drunk/high/etc. Assault is assault and it has consequences, and if this guy has been a repeat offender on the assault front, that would really push me to drop him regardless. Lots of people get drunk off their ass without harassing or groping women.
For me, there have been times when I took something less seriously because the person was drunk, or minimized their culpability in my head. But I was wrong. Getting drunk isn't a free pass, and I want to stress that lots of people get drunk and act the fool without harassing or assaulting someone.
If you are consciously or unconsciously saying to yourself "the harassment isn't as bad a reflection on him because he was drunk and so it's okay to stay friends", stop saying that.
posted by Frowner at 2:19 AM on June 15, 2016 [26 favorites]
For me, there have been times when I took something less seriously because the person was drunk, or minimized their culpability in my head. But I was wrong. Getting drunk isn't a free pass, and I want to stress that lots of people get drunk and act the fool without harassing or assaulting someone.
If you are consciously or unconsciously saying to yourself "the harassment isn't as bad a reflection on him because he was drunk and so it's okay to stay friends", stop saying that.
posted by Frowner at 2:19 AM on June 15, 2016 [26 favorites]
Also (and I will stop after this):
Selfishly, I don't want people to assume I am alright with someone who has been abusive to women, and I don't want to put the women in my life through the pain of being in parties/bars with someone who is known to have been a total creep. On the other hand, I want to support my friend and help them become a decent human being, assuming that is even possible.
If your friend is taking this seriously, he's not going to any bars or parties again for a long time. That's one way he can demonstrate that he takes this seriously - removing himself from places where he will make women anxious and afraid and where he will find it harder not to drink. That would be the baseline for me staying friends with this person - that he accepts that even if he can't stop drinking, he is no longer going to drink around people, and that he has at present forfeited his right to go out and be social. The bare minimum for him to do is to remove the opportunity for him to harass women while drunk.
Your friend could do a number of other things, too. He could (and here is where you could help him by making the contacts so that people don't need to deal with him if they are not ready) find out from the people he has injured if they need anything from him other than him apologizing and staying away.
Another thing he can do is write an email to his [former?] friend circle outlining what he is going to do. I recommend that he find a therapist or support group rather than trying to craft his own accountability circle - IME people in the community often lack the skills, time and staying power to deal with this stuff. If he is serious about addressing this, he should make sure that he is checking in with a professional or in a support group setting if he can't access a professional.
In a best case scenario where he really takes this seriously, he needs to change his habits and demonstrate to his social circle that he is doing/has done so. He also needs to accept that a lot of bridges are permanently burned.
Also, he needs to sit with this. Again, it's really hard to accept that you have made a mistake and hurt people in your community. It is shameful. If he's going to process it, he needs to think about it over time, not rush to make everything "better".
If you are going to stay in contact with him, you should have a really serious and pretty uncomfortable conversation with him about where he is at and what he did. Don't try to minimize it or speed up the conversation, even though it will feel awkward and painful and you will want to "normalize" things because it feels so lousy. Both you and he need to really take the time to sit with how he has hurt people, not just rush to repair the ego wound.
If you are like me, you will be at risk of minimizing what happened because you will be uncertain and embarrassed and because you will feel bad for the shame and self-recrimination that your friend is experiencing. If your friend feels ashamed, it's because he did something shameful. I think we usually encounter friends feeling shame and upset when they have had a bad experience, not done something bad, and so we are not always prepared to really sit with the need to feel shame for a shameful action.
Also, what is your relation to the woman who was assaulted? If she is also your friend [even at a less close level] and you stay friends with this guy, you are prioritizing the abuser. I'm not saying that just because you don't know her it's okay to stay friends with someone who harasses and gropes someone. It's more that if you literally don't know her, then she will not have to deal with knowing that you're still this guy's friend, and I think it's more reasonable to say that you are staying in contact with him as long as he does [things] because your actions don't impact her wellbeing. Her friends should pick her.
posted by Frowner at 2:46 AM on June 15, 2016 [31 favorites]
Selfishly, I don't want people to assume I am alright with someone who has been abusive to women, and I don't want to put the women in my life through the pain of being in parties/bars with someone who is known to have been a total creep. On the other hand, I want to support my friend and help them become a decent human being, assuming that is even possible.
If your friend is taking this seriously, he's not going to any bars or parties again for a long time. That's one way he can demonstrate that he takes this seriously - removing himself from places where he will make women anxious and afraid and where he will find it harder not to drink. That would be the baseline for me staying friends with this person - that he accepts that even if he can't stop drinking, he is no longer going to drink around people, and that he has at present forfeited his right to go out and be social. The bare minimum for him to do is to remove the opportunity for him to harass women while drunk.
Your friend could do a number of other things, too. He could (and here is where you could help him by making the contacts so that people don't need to deal with him if they are not ready) find out from the people he has injured if they need anything from him other than him apologizing and staying away.
Another thing he can do is write an email to his [former?] friend circle outlining what he is going to do. I recommend that he find a therapist or support group rather than trying to craft his own accountability circle - IME people in the community often lack the skills, time and staying power to deal with this stuff. If he is serious about addressing this, he should make sure that he is checking in with a professional or in a support group setting if he can't access a professional.
In a best case scenario where he really takes this seriously, he needs to change his habits and demonstrate to his social circle that he is doing/has done so. He also needs to accept that a lot of bridges are permanently burned.
Also, he needs to sit with this. Again, it's really hard to accept that you have made a mistake and hurt people in your community. It is shameful. If he's going to process it, he needs to think about it over time, not rush to make everything "better".
If you are going to stay in contact with him, you should have a really serious and pretty uncomfortable conversation with him about where he is at and what he did. Don't try to minimize it or speed up the conversation, even though it will feel awkward and painful and you will want to "normalize" things because it feels so lousy. Both you and he need to really take the time to sit with how he has hurt people, not just rush to repair the ego wound.
If you are like me, you will be at risk of minimizing what happened because you will be uncertain and embarrassed and because you will feel bad for the shame and self-recrimination that your friend is experiencing. If your friend feels ashamed, it's because he did something shameful. I think we usually encounter friends feeling shame and upset when they have had a bad experience, not done something bad, and so we are not always prepared to really sit with the need to feel shame for a shameful action.
Also, what is your relation to the woman who was assaulted? If she is also your friend [even at a less close level] and you stay friends with this guy, you are prioritizing the abuser. I'm not saying that just because you don't know her it's okay to stay friends with someone who harasses and gropes someone. It's more that if you literally don't know her, then she will not have to deal with knowing that you're still this guy's friend, and I think it's more reasonable to say that you are staying in contact with him as long as he does [things] because your actions don't impact her wellbeing. Her friends should pick her.
posted by Frowner at 2:46 AM on June 15, 2016 [31 favorites]
I have been through a similar experience. You are in for a world of hurt if you support this guy in anyway.
Just trust me.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:23 AM on June 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
Just trust me.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:23 AM on June 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
Been in a similar situation, eventually chose to cut ties.
The statement above about how your friendship is a stamp of approval and you are endorsing that person was key for me. Friends would assume that my mate was alright/safe/not a hot mess around women as they thought that I wouldn't associate with someone like that. He would regularly overstep the line (often with booze involved) with women. It got to the stage that, in good conscience I could not hang out with him. One of the drivers for me was that if a woman said that he had groped her I would not be surprised. I did not want to have female friends/relatives tell me about abuse and for me to say "I'm not surprised."
My only disappointment was that I did not do this sooner. (Similar to you this was an old friend of many years.)
posted by Gratishades at 4:06 AM on June 15, 2016 [18 favorites]
The statement above about how your friendship is a stamp of approval and you are endorsing that person was key for me. Friends would assume that my mate was alright/safe/not a hot mess around women as they thought that I wouldn't associate with someone like that. He would regularly overstep the line (often with booze involved) with women. It got to the stage that, in good conscience I could not hang out with him. One of the drivers for me was that if a woman said that he had groped her I would not be surprised. I did not want to have female friends/relatives tell me about abuse and for me to say "I'm not surprised."
My only disappointment was that I did not do this sooner. (Similar to you this was an old friend of many years.)
posted by Gratishades at 4:06 AM on June 15, 2016 [18 favorites]
You say he's had problems with alcohol and drug abuse for a long time; he's probably also been assaulting women for a long time. The thing is, that's two separate problems: his substance addictions, and his violence, because I'm willing to bet this was FAR from the first time he groped/assaulted someone.
So while I understand the sympathy you have for your friend and your desire to stand by them, what it means to me is that I would cut BOTH of you out of my life: him because of his awful behavior, and you because I don't want to have even the slightest risk that inviting you to join me somewhere would mean he's tagging along. You can 'forgive' him for assaulting other people and try to support him yourself, but you have no right to make other people --- who may have witnessed/experienced OTHER assaults from him --- to do the same.
posted by easily confused at 4:36 AM on June 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
So while I understand the sympathy you have for your friend and your desire to stand by them, what it means to me is that I would cut BOTH of you out of my life: him because of his awful behavior, and you because I don't want to have even the slightest risk that inviting you to join me somewhere would mean he's tagging along. You can 'forgive' him for assaulting other people and try to support him yourself, but you have no right to make other people --- who may have witnessed/experienced OTHER assaults from him --- to do the same.
posted by easily confused at 4:36 AM on June 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
I agree (as usual) with Frowner's assessment. I think you should read carefully through the responses here in order to determine exactly what kind of harm you might inadvertently inflict on people on your social circle by staying friends with this person - giving them an implicit 'stamp of approval,' by accompanying them to parties, for example, or minimizing the seriousness of what they've done in conversation in an attempt to escape awkwardness.
This is serious and it must be taken seriously; if your friend can't be honest with themselves and with you about what happened, I don't see any path going forward beyond saying simply, "I love you, but until you can talk honestly with me about what happened, I can't engage with you. I hope you'll come to me when you're ready."
That said, I disagree with the posters who believe that anything other than instantly ostracizing this person forever inevitably perpetuates rape culture. I think it might actually perpetuate rape culture, in the same way sex offender registries do, by perpetuating the mindset that only the most evil and untouchable people commit these kinds of crimes; my son/friend/husband/acquaintance isn't evil; ergo, he must not have committed this crime.
If everyone who takes sexual assault seriously refuses to engage with this person for the rest of their life, then I guess it's possible that they'll look around at their newly empty world and have a come to Jesus moment where they realize the seriousness of their crime...but it seems much more likely to me that the actual consequence is that they'll find themselves in an echo chamber full of people who are willing to keep helping them lie to themselves about what they've done. I think it's totally possible for you to stay in this person's life, and to love them and speak to them truthfully without without enabling them,and I strongly suggest you look towards AA and Al-Anon for advice on how to negotiate this difficult terrain.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 5:35 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is serious and it must be taken seriously; if your friend can't be honest with themselves and with you about what happened, I don't see any path going forward beyond saying simply, "I love you, but until you can talk honestly with me about what happened, I can't engage with you. I hope you'll come to me when you're ready."
That said, I disagree with the posters who believe that anything other than instantly ostracizing this person forever inevitably perpetuates rape culture. I think it might actually perpetuate rape culture, in the same way sex offender registries do, by perpetuating the mindset that only the most evil and untouchable people commit these kinds of crimes; my son/friend/husband/acquaintance isn't evil; ergo, he must not have committed this crime.
If everyone who takes sexual assault seriously refuses to engage with this person for the rest of their life, then I guess it's possible that they'll look around at their newly empty world and have a come to Jesus moment where they realize the seriousness of their crime...but it seems much more likely to me that the actual consequence is that they'll find themselves in an echo chamber full of people who are willing to keep helping them lie to themselves about what they've done. I think it's totally possible for you to stay in this person's life, and to love them and speak to them truthfully without without enabling them,and I strongly suggest you look towards AA and Al-Anon for advice on how to negotiate this difficult terrain.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 5:35 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
You cannot be a casual friend to this person. You either need to be actively engaged in his or her recovery from addiction and rehabilitation from being abusive, OR cut them off. One way perhaps to helpfully cut them off is to write a letter saying "This is what has to happen (and why) for me to hang out with you again", and that list should include at least 2 years of sobriety and of course a serious course of therapy to help combat whatever it is that drove them to assault people while drunk.
Again, you cannot casually hang out with this person on occasion and be a friendly ear for them. If they are miserable, they deserve to be. But everyone deserves help, and if you feel qualified to help them go to therapy and/or get sober it would be a positive moral choice to do so. But if you do, own it in public. Don't sneak around seeing them without your female friends knowing. Let them know you are helping this person clean up their shit. They may judge you, and that is their right. They may choose to cut you off too, and you can hardly blame them.
Nobody could fault you if you can't bear this burden, especially if you have 0 experience with alcoholism and/or CBT. Good luck, this is a tough decision.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:45 AM on June 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
Again, you cannot casually hang out with this person on occasion and be a friendly ear for them. If they are miserable, they deserve to be. But everyone deserves help, and if you feel qualified to help them go to therapy and/or get sober it would be a positive moral choice to do so. But if you do, own it in public. Don't sneak around seeing them without your female friends knowing. Let them know you are helping this person clean up their shit. They may judge you, and that is their right. They may choose to cut you off too, and you can hardly blame them.
Nobody could fault you if you can't bear this burden, especially if you have 0 experience with alcoholism and/or CBT. Good luck, this is a tough decision.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:45 AM on June 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
So, first I think you need to get your own head on straight as to the danger this person poses. You write: "I agree 100% that this person is likely a threat ". This person is not likely a threat, he's someone who has already committed at least one assault! This doesn't mean that people who have committed assault or other crimes can never have friends and/or never make amends, but step one is acknowledging what has happened -- really acknowledge it -- and be 100% on the side of people who need to feel safe at parties and bars.
Second, I'm not clear here if your friend has acknowledged what he's done and is working to get help. Of course your friend shouldn't be in bars if he's a recovering alcoholic? If he's still trying to access spaces where he can drink and assault people, then no, you should not be friends with him. If he's actively trying to get better and make amends, I think it's more of a grey area where you can provide true support. But just -- hanging out with him and acting like everything is fine and nothing changes? That's not really support for him, and yeah, as a woman I would start to get pretty suspicious of you as well that you were not a true ally. So I would try to really honestly assess whether there is true movement on your friend's part to change.
posted by rainbowbrite at 5:49 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
Second, I'm not clear here if your friend has acknowledged what he's done and is working to get help. Of course your friend shouldn't be in bars if he's a recovering alcoholic? If he's still trying to access spaces where he can drink and assault people, then no, you should not be friends with him. If he's actively trying to get better and make amends, I think it's more of a grey area where you can provide true support. But just -- hanging out with him and acting like everything is fine and nothing changes? That's not really support for him, and yeah, as a woman I would start to get pretty suspicious of you as well that you were not a true ally. So I would try to really honestly assess whether there is true movement on your friend's part to change.
posted by rainbowbrite at 5:49 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
strong social ties and relationships play a huge role in whether someone goes on to commit more crimes.
I've seen this; have also seen that "hitting rock bottom" isn't always a reliable way through. There's a good support for motivational interviewing in addiction treatment - i.e., hope.
I think your friend having someone out there who thinks they're valuable as a human being - because they do have some positive qualities that a long-time friend understands and appreciates, and inherently, because they're a human being - is more likely to help than hurt them (and hopefully, ultimately others). So long as you continue to maintain boundaries, stay honest with them, nudge them towards treatment; I think internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 and juliet banana are right. (You can't fix them, though, obviously.)
At the same time, I am still worried about one of my oldest friends, and worried that being cut off from all our friends, being barred from all of the local bars, and generally being treated as a pariah is only going to make things worse for their substance abuse issues.
It probably will not be amazing for their mental health in general tbh, and yeah, I think it's possible (likely) they'll turn to their comforts with even more vigour.
If they're someone with a long history of addiction and impulse control issues, honestly, I'm doubting they're currently [physiologically] in a position to think beyond self-pity to fully grasp the impact of their actions, or make huge movements towards making amends. The wait for that day might be long, without help. I think help for this person will be better (for everyone) than no [professional] help or social support.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:20 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've seen this; have also seen that "hitting rock bottom" isn't always a reliable way through. There's a good support for motivational interviewing in addiction treatment - i.e., hope.
I think your friend having someone out there who thinks they're valuable as a human being - because they do have some positive qualities that a long-time friend understands and appreciates, and inherently, because they're a human being - is more likely to help than hurt them (and hopefully, ultimately others). So long as you continue to maintain boundaries, stay honest with them, nudge them towards treatment; I think internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 and juliet banana are right. (You can't fix them, though, obviously.)
At the same time, I am still worried about one of my oldest friends, and worried that being cut off from all our friends, being barred from all of the local bars, and generally being treated as a pariah is only going to make things worse for their substance abuse issues.
It probably will not be amazing for their mental health in general tbh, and yeah, I think it's possible (likely) they'll turn to their comforts with even more vigour.
If they're someone with a long history of addiction and impulse control issues, honestly, I'm doubting they're currently [physiologically] in a position to think beyond self-pity to fully grasp the impact of their actions, or make huge movements towards making amends. The wait for that day might be long, without help. I think help for this person will be better (for everyone) than no [professional] help or social support.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:20 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
At the same time, I am still worried about one of my oldest friends, and worried that being cut off from all our friends, being barred from all of the local bars, and generally being treated as a pariah is only going to make things worse for their substance abuse issues.
Speaking as someone who has had alcoholics and addicts in my life since birth: The reality is that nothing you do or don't do is going to make a significant difference. You just need to decide what you can live with. If you feel better being in his life, stay in his life. If you feel better cutting him off, cut him off. But please know that logic and reason have no real place here. It might seem logical to you that supporting him - however you define that - will make his life better. I can tell you, though, that after years of "supporting" a husband struggling with substance abuse I finally figured out that giving him a soft landing only made it easier for him, both mentally and logistically, to keep doing what he was doing.
Also: your friend doesn't get a pass for being abusive just because he has problems with drinking and drugs. Lots and lots of addicts never do anything like this. Please don't use his substance abuse as an excuse or even an explanation. What he did is not okay.
posted by something something at 6:32 AM on June 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
Speaking as someone who has had alcoholics and addicts in my life since birth: The reality is that nothing you do or don't do is going to make a significant difference. You just need to decide what you can live with. If you feel better being in his life, stay in his life. If you feel better cutting him off, cut him off. But please know that logic and reason have no real place here. It might seem logical to you that supporting him - however you define that - will make his life better. I can tell you, though, that after years of "supporting" a husband struggling with substance abuse I finally figured out that giving him a soft landing only made it easier for him, both mentally and logistically, to keep doing what he was doing.
Also: your friend doesn't get a pass for being abusive just because he has problems with drinking and drugs. Lots and lots of addicts never do anything like this. Please don't use his substance abuse as an excuse or even an explanation. What he did is not okay.
posted by something something at 6:32 AM on June 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
Things like this are far more complicated than we would like. It would be so much easier if we could just cut off abusers, let them hit rock bottom, and have them get better. Unfortunately, social ties are necessary for social well-being and social recovery.
I have a friend (James) who has been supporting his friend through an accountability process after doing a similar thing. James has been open about why he is still friends with a shitty person (because he believes in community and accountability), does not defend the friend when their behaviour is brought up, and continues to spend time with the friend in relative isolation (because the friend is not welcome in most spaces at a result of their behaviour). James' social life has not taken a huge hit because he does not bring his shitty friend with him to events and because he is invested in performing a LOT of emotional labour for people who feel victimized or unsafe. He's basically acting as an unpaid therapist for his friend and for people who are triggered by his friend. James is also generally an introvert so he probably feels the pushback less than someone who is intensely involved in a small social sphere, and he has a long history of community involvement that gives him mostly positive connections (aka he has people who will defend him as a good person if people talk shit).
It really depends on how your friend is handling their behaviour. Are they seeking out some form of accountability or showing a desire to change their behaviour? You can't force someone into a healing process and if your friend isn't ready for it then all your good intentions don't really matter. Do you have the kind of friendship where you can have a frank discussion about this kind of thing? Are you willing to become a huge source of emotional support for this person while also being a bit of an emotional target for people they have hurt? Are you ready to do this for several years?
I think this kind of thing is extremely admirable to take on but it won't be easy and yeah you will probably lose some friends who can't handle you staying close friends with them.
posted by buteo at 6:34 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have a friend (James) who has been supporting his friend through an accountability process after doing a similar thing. James has been open about why he is still friends with a shitty person (because he believes in community and accountability), does not defend the friend when their behaviour is brought up, and continues to spend time with the friend in relative isolation (because the friend is not welcome in most spaces at a result of their behaviour). James' social life has not taken a huge hit because he does not bring his shitty friend with him to events and because he is invested in performing a LOT of emotional labour for people who feel victimized or unsafe. He's basically acting as an unpaid therapist for his friend and for people who are triggered by his friend. James is also generally an introvert so he probably feels the pushback less than someone who is intensely involved in a small social sphere, and he has a long history of community involvement that gives him mostly positive connections (aka he has people who will defend him as a good person if people talk shit).
It really depends on how your friend is handling their behaviour. Are they seeking out some form of accountability or showing a desire to change their behaviour? You can't force someone into a healing process and if your friend isn't ready for it then all your good intentions don't really matter. Do you have the kind of friendship where you can have a frank discussion about this kind of thing? Are you willing to become a huge source of emotional support for this person while also being a bit of an emotional target for people they have hurt? Are you ready to do this for several years?
I think this kind of thing is extremely admirable to take on but it won't be easy and yeah you will probably lose some friends who can't handle you staying close friends with them.
posted by buteo at 6:34 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
I thought about this and wanted to add that I have seen this kind of situation many, many times in my broader social milieu over the past fifteen or sixteen years. The conversations that are being had here are extremely familiar to me.
Because I have seen this so often, I have become deeply skeptical of the argument that it is very important to keep the assaulter "in the community" and to maintain ties so that he [always he in my personal experience] maintains a feeling of self-worth.
In the punk/arts/activist social sphere, I have not seen one guy who committed sexual assault follow through on any kind of accountability plan or make amends. Not one.
The only one I've seen to do so was the one I stayed friends with, and he was from a different social sphere and much, much nerdier.
I no longer believe that it is very important for "the community" to keep someone in community with them and I no longer believe that it makes a difference for most people who commit assault. I have heard the "but people should stay friends with him to keep him accountable" thing many, many times now and what I have always seen is that it goes along with the woman victim being shunted aside.
We are in the grip of forces larger than ourselves, forces which unconsciously push us to prioritize the needs of men over women even when those men have done wrong to the women. We are pushed to discount the feelings of women. We are pushed to forget or overlook how stressful it is for women to always be aware that they could be raped or grabbed because there's that dude. We are pushed to forget that it's shitty for women to have to know that their men friends are hanging out with rapists like it's normal to rape. We absorb the unconscious idea that women's pain is normal, women's pain doesn't matter because women feeling bad is the way of the world.
I am not saying that you can't be friends with this guy within some pretty clear limits, but don't think that it's about "keeping him in the community" or "making him feel like he's still a valuable individual". Those lines of reasoning are not intentionally anti-woman, but I have never, not once, seen them to function in any way but as anti-woman justifications.
posted by Frowner at 6:38 AM on June 15, 2016 [94 favorites]
Because I have seen this so often, I have become deeply skeptical of the argument that it is very important to keep the assaulter "in the community" and to maintain ties so that he [always he in my personal experience] maintains a feeling of self-worth.
In the punk/arts/activist social sphere, I have not seen one guy who committed sexual assault follow through on any kind of accountability plan or make amends. Not one.
The only one I've seen to do so was the one I stayed friends with, and he was from a different social sphere and much, much nerdier.
I no longer believe that it is very important for "the community" to keep someone in community with them and I no longer believe that it makes a difference for most people who commit assault. I have heard the "but people should stay friends with him to keep him accountable" thing many, many times now and what I have always seen is that it goes along with the woman victim being shunted aside.
We are in the grip of forces larger than ourselves, forces which unconsciously push us to prioritize the needs of men over women even when those men have done wrong to the women. We are pushed to discount the feelings of women. We are pushed to forget or overlook how stressful it is for women to always be aware that they could be raped or grabbed because there's that dude. We are pushed to forget that it's shitty for women to have to know that their men friends are hanging out with rapists like it's normal to rape. We absorb the unconscious idea that women's pain is normal, women's pain doesn't matter because women feeling bad is the way of the world.
I am not saying that you can't be friends with this guy within some pretty clear limits, but don't think that it's about "keeping him in the community" or "making him feel like he's still a valuable individual". Those lines of reasoning are not intentionally anti-woman, but I have never, not once, seen them to function in any way but as anti-woman justifications.
posted by Frowner at 6:38 AM on June 15, 2016 [94 favorites]
Justice and health are not always aligned.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:48 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:48 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't want to put the women in my life through the pain of being in parties/bars with someone who is known to have been a total creep
FWIW, this will probably not happen as if you remain in a regular friendship with this person, you will end up as ostracized as s/he is. I have ended friendships over this sort of thing with no regret or pause for thought; they are immediately cut off just as one does when one discovers that a seemingly nice person is actually a racist nutter, or whatever other flavour of pathetic. "Oh, crap, there's Kelly over there, with Pat -- I see they're still BFFs. How nice... Hello! Could we settle up our tab please?" If they have been close enough to any of the abuser's victims they are just not going to tolerate it. And why on earth should they?
A song I enjoy on multiple levels: The Specials - Racist Friend [lyrics]
Can you really imagine people wanting to maintain a pleasant friendship with a person who waffled on "I've always assumed I would have zero tolerance for people who are creeps to women"?
You can be there for him if he chooses to sober up and get help and change his thinking and behaviour -- you can't help him out of it, though. And this person is a jerk, and if you go down the path you are contemplating, you will be a person with a jerk for a friend; people will not be interested in the nuances of it -- you will just be another person with weak morals, to be avoided.
I also suspect you are trying to assign too much blame to the substance abuse, as though if he sobered up he would be a kind person who respected women. But I've enjoyed drugs, and still drink a good bit on certain occasions, and I don't go around groping people, and I don't know anybody who goes around groping people or otherwise behaving unpleasantly while being intoxicated. You presumably don't either. Drugs and alcohol lower inhibitions, but do not normally fundamentally change people. You need to separate out the two problems and accept that this person has behaviour problems as well as substance abuse problems. Since you have tolerated this for a long time with full knowledge and wish to continue tolerating it, it might be time to re-evaluate what sort of person you want yourself to be.
posted by kmennie at 8:09 AM on June 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
FWIW, this will probably not happen as if you remain in a regular friendship with this person, you will end up as ostracized as s/he is. I have ended friendships over this sort of thing with no regret or pause for thought; they are immediately cut off just as one does when one discovers that a seemingly nice person is actually a racist nutter, or whatever other flavour of pathetic. "Oh, crap, there's Kelly over there, with Pat -- I see they're still BFFs. How nice... Hello! Could we settle up our tab please?" If they have been close enough to any of the abuser's victims they are just not going to tolerate it. And why on earth should they?
A song I enjoy on multiple levels: The Specials - Racist Friend [lyrics]
Can you really imagine people wanting to maintain a pleasant friendship with a person who waffled on "I've always assumed I would have zero tolerance for people who are creeps to women"?
You can be there for him if he chooses to sober up and get help and change his thinking and behaviour -- you can't help him out of it, though. And this person is a jerk, and if you go down the path you are contemplating, you will be a person with a jerk for a friend; people will not be interested in the nuances of it -- you will just be another person with weak morals, to be avoided.
I also suspect you are trying to assign too much blame to the substance abuse, as though if he sobered up he would be a kind person who respected women. But I've enjoyed drugs, and still drink a good bit on certain occasions, and I don't go around groping people, and I don't know anybody who goes around groping people or otherwise behaving unpleasantly while being intoxicated. You presumably don't either. Drugs and alcohol lower inhibitions, but do not normally fundamentally change people. You need to separate out the two problems and accept that this person has behaviour problems as well as substance abuse problems. Since you have tolerated this for a long time with full knowledge and wish to continue tolerating it, it might be time to re-evaluate what sort of person you want yourself to be.
posted by kmennie at 8:09 AM on June 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
Something you don't seem to have mentioned and may want to consider is what is your friends take on what has been happening.
Is it OMG everyone is out to get me, I was drunk so it didn't count. Does he see himself as the victim here.
Or
Is he understanding he has a problem with drinking, wanting to stop, blaming himself for what happened.
Until he truly accepts that this is his problem under his control as it were there is very little you could do to help anyway & you are simply reinforcing the idea that this is not his problem, the problem is how the rest of the world sees what he does as wrong. Is that something you want to support because doing so won't help him get better.
I say this as the sister of a meth addict that completely & totally fucked his own life up & blamed the rest of the world for it for years. He has only recently when everyone including his family refused to stand by him any more did he to realize that maybe he had a problem. Luckily he got arrested for something he'd done while off his head around this time & court therapy & rehabilitation in jail is seeming to be helping him. What wouldn't have helped him is us supporting & agreeing with him that it was everyone elses fault but his or even worse acting like untrained therapists to someone with a serious problem that needs professional help.
posted by wwax at 8:15 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is it OMG everyone is out to get me, I was drunk so it didn't count. Does he see himself as the victim here.
Or
Is he understanding he has a problem with drinking, wanting to stop, blaming himself for what happened.
Until he truly accepts that this is his problem under his control as it were there is very little you could do to help anyway & you are simply reinforcing the idea that this is not his problem, the problem is how the rest of the world sees what he does as wrong. Is that something you want to support because doing so won't help him get better.
I say this as the sister of a meth addict that completely & totally fucked his own life up & blamed the rest of the world for it for years. He has only recently when everyone including his family refused to stand by him any more did he to realize that maybe he had a problem. Luckily he got arrested for something he'd done while off his head around this time & court therapy & rehabilitation in jail is seeming to be helping him. What wouldn't have helped him is us supporting & agreeing with him that it was everyone elses fault but his or even worse acting like untrained therapists to someone with a serious problem that needs professional help.
posted by wwax at 8:15 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have to say that I am agreeing with this so emphatically:
Also: your friend doesn't get a pass for being abusive just because he has problems with drinking and drugs. Lots and lots of addicts never do anything like this. Please don't use his substance abuse as an excuse or even an explanation.
I have too many family members with alcohol issues, and a couple of friends with other addiction issues, so I'm acquainted with addiction/addicts personally. Shitty self destructive behavior is one thing, and I understand why you might not want to cut off a person with those issues, but once it crosses the line into affecting others, either assault, any kind of violence, driving drunk or impaired and endangering others, abbusive behavior to others, that is when I put my foot down and say I will no longer associate with you till you address this issue. I think you need to really think about what you are saying to your other friends and the person who was assaulted by not making it clear in a really explicit way to long-term friend that a line has been crossed and that it is not ok with you.
Also, on preview, very much agree with wwax.
posted by gudrun at 8:25 AM on June 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also: your friend doesn't get a pass for being abusive just because he has problems with drinking and drugs. Lots and lots of addicts never do anything like this. Please don't use his substance abuse as an excuse or even an explanation.
I have too many family members with alcohol issues, and a couple of friends with other addiction issues, so I'm acquainted with addiction/addicts personally. Shitty self destructive behavior is one thing, and I understand why you might not want to cut off a person with those issues, but once it crosses the line into affecting others, either assault, any kind of violence, driving drunk or impaired and endangering others, abbusive behavior to others, that is when I put my foot down and say I will no longer associate with you till you address this issue. I think you need to really think about what you are saying to your other friends and the person who was assaulted by not making it clear in a really explicit way to long-term friend that a line has been crossed and that it is not ok with you.
Also, on preview, very much agree with wwax.
posted by gudrun at 8:25 AM on June 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
"I want to support my friend and help them become a decent human being, assuming that is even possible."
It is not possible. Cut off all ties. He will have to hit rock bottom before he even has a chance of changing, and you continuing a friendship is keeping him from rock bottom. Your kindness is having the opposite effect of what you are intending.
posted by myselfasme at 8:33 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
It is not possible. Cut off all ties. He will have to hit rock bottom before he even has a chance of changing, and you continuing a friendship is keeping him from rock bottom. Your kindness is having the opposite effect of what you are intending.
posted by myselfasme at 8:33 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I recommend that he find a therapist or support group rather than trying to craft his own accountability circle - IME people in the community often lack the skills, time and staying power to deal with this stuff.
People who try to choose their "community" to help them instead of professionals are generally sending a very clear message: "this isn't REALLY my problem; I'm going through the motions because some friends have their knickers in a knot, but I don't think a little groping is something I need to prioritise my own time or money for."
posted by saucysault at 8:35 AM on June 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
People who try to choose their "community" to help them instead of professionals are generally sending a very clear message: "this isn't REALLY my problem; I'm going through the motions because some friends have their knickers in a knot, but I don't think a little groping is something I need to prioritise my own time or money for."
posted by saucysault at 8:35 AM on June 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
Further to my comment above about cutting ties. I was fairly brutal/open when the time came that I had enough. Arranged to meet up with him and went through in fairly specific detail the issues that I had. This broke down into four points.
1. He was a dick when drunk.
2. He was a dick with women (sometimes without being drunk).
3. He was a dick to waiting staff and others he dealt with when he was in a position of relative power.
4. When people told stories about him being a dick, I always believed them (over his "and then for some bizarre reason they never spoke to me again" tales).
If you are at a point when, if someone accused your friend of rape, you would think "yup, that sounds in character" then you really have to wonder what the hell you are doing.
(If it is of any consolation for your 'good-mateship' concern- mutual friends have informed me that since this talk he has seriously cut down on the booze and seems in a better place. My previous attempts to guide him to be a better person by socialising and supporting him had zero effect. Cutting ties seems to have been a bit of a wake up call. Even if it hadn't resulted in this change though, it was the right decision for me and my social circle regardless.)
posted by Gratishades at 8:38 AM on June 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
1. He was a dick when drunk.
2. He was a dick with women (sometimes without being drunk).
3. He was a dick to waiting staff and others he dealt with when he was in a position of relative power.
4. When people told stories about him being a dick, I always believed them (over his "and then for some bizarre reason they never spoke to me again" tales).
If you are at a point when, if someone accused your friend of rape, you would think "yup, that sounds in character" then you really have to wonder what the hell you are doing.
(If it is of any consolation for your 'good-mateship' concern- mutual friends have informed me that since this talk he has seriously cut down on the booze and seems in a better place. My previous attempts to guide him to be a better person by socialising and supporting him had zero effect. Cutting ties seems to have been a bit of a wake up call. Even if it hadn't resulted in this change though, it was the right decision for me and my social circle regardless.)
posted by Gratishades at 8:38 AM on June 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
People who try to choose their "community" to help them instead of professionals are generally sending a very clear message: "this isn't REALLY my problem; I'm going through the motions because some friends have their knickers in a knot, but I don't think a little groping is something I need to prioritise my own time or money for."
In fairness, I think it's important to know that in a lot of punk/arts/activist circles, many people are really, actually, literally broke (that is, genuinely working class broke, not just short-of-cash but insured middle class) and have a lot of difficulty accessing support services, especially support services that are not on an AA model and/or that are queer/trans friendly or welcoming to POC. In my experience, a lot of people try to support community accountability processes out of good motives and in a situation where people lack easy access to other forms of care. It just doesn't work well IME, is all.
posted by Frowner at 8:44 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
In fairness, I think it's important to know that in a lot of punk/arts/activist circles, many people are really, actually, literally broke (that is, genuinely working class broke, not just short-of-cash but insured middle class) and have a lot of difficulty accessing support services, especially support services that are not on an AA model and/or that are queer/trans friendly or welcoming to POC. In my experience, a lot of people try to support community accountability processes out of good motives and in a situation where people lack easy access to other forms of care. It just doesn't work well IME, is all.
posted by Frowner at 8:44 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree with a lot of the others here: your actions here should be 100% dependent on your friend's feelings about their actions.
Are they horrified by what they've done? Do they want to seek help for their substance abuse issues? Do they want to make amends, and if so, is it because they are genuinely contrite, or just because being rightly ostracized for their behavior is uncomfortable?
If your friend REALLY seems like they want to change, I think it wouldn't be out of line to let your friend know that as long as they are truly committed to addressing their problems, you are there to help them get help and be a source of support and friendship.
That said, under no circumstances should you bring or invite them to any party, gathering, bar, or anything right now. Or potentially ever.
Women in particular are often expected to just suck it up and deal with abuse in the name of not rocking the boat; don't put anyone in the position of feeling like their comfort and safety is seen as less important than the hurt feelings of the one who abused them. This happens constantly, and it is abhorrent.
Your friend assaulted at least one woman and was known to be a problem to others prior to that; that is serious, and your group was right to close ranks against them. Don't ever, EVER prioritize your friend's sad feelings about being ostracized over the feelings of the people they've bothered or assaulted.
Your friend HURT people with their actions. If you inflict your friend on the group before they're okay with it, you will be hurting people as well. You need to make peace with the fact that some people will never be okay with your friend, and they may never be welcome back again. That is not your problem; that is their problem, and they have to live with it.
If in time your friend really seems to have turned a new leaf, this may be something you mention to the group, not as a "hey, is it okay if X comes to the next party?" but as "I'm really proud that X is getting help and seems to being much better." Don't force the issue.
posted by helloimjennsco at 9:14 AM on June 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are they horrified by what they've done? Do they want to seek help for their substance abuse issues? Do they want to make amends, and if so, is it because they are genuinely contrite, or just because being rightly ostracized for their behavior is uncomfortable?
If your friend REALLY seems like they want to change, I think it wouldn't be out of line to let your friend know that as long as they are truly committed to addressing their problems, you are there to help them get help and be a source of support and friendship.
That said, under no circumstances should you bring or invite them to any party, gathering, bar, or anything right now. Or potentially ever.
Women in particular are often expected to just suck it up and deal with abuse in the name of not rocking the boat; don't put anyone in the position of feeling like their comfort and safety is seen as less important than the hurt feelings of the one who abused them. This happens constantly, and it is abhorrent.
Your friend assaulted at least one woman and was known to be a problem to others prior to that; that is serious, and your group was right to close ranks against them. Don't ever, EVER prioritize your friend's sad feelings about being ostracized over the feelings of the people they've bothered or assaulted.
Your friend HURT people with their actions. If you inflict your friend on the group before they're okay with it, you will be hurting people as well. You need to make peace with the fact that some people will never be okay with your friend, and they may never be welcome back again. That is not your problem; that is their problem, and they have to live with it.
If in time your friend really seems to have turned a new leaf, this may be something you mention to the group, not as a "hey, is it okay if X comes to the next party?" but as "I'm really proud that X is getting help and seems to being much better." Don't force the issue.
posted by helloimjennsco at 9:14 AM on June 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
If this were me, I would be asking myself how my friend was responding to this and I would let that be my guide. Does he think what he did was bad? What steps is he taking to deal with the drinking? Is he really taking them or is he just talking about it? Has he apologized to the person he harassed and groped, to the party host and to anyone else involved?
Exactly. One of the traits I often associate with people with substance abuse issues and other social problems is, oddly enough, a sort of weird charm or charisma that allows them to stay within spaces where they are allowed to do this much longer than they would otherwise. That is, whatever it is that is compelling you to "keep trying" with this person is also part of their personality that allows them to be able to keep accessing and assaulting people. It's not "Oh this is a good friend who somehow is also a drunk and someone who assaults people what a weird coincidence..." as much as "I may feel close to and want to help this person specifically because of the combination of personality traits that also includes their addiction and bad behavior" Anyone who has an addict in the family knows this "You have to help me you're my only hope!" thing. And it's rarely, if ever, true.
If I understand you correctly there was an intervention and THEN this assault happened? I think I'd be a lot less lenient with them and forgiving. They were given, one presumes, an ultimatum. They abused the community's trust. They hurt someone. While I don't think you have to choose exactly I think you can very well be open about supporting the assaulted person (with your friend and with the community) and make your word and deed be on Team Her. And yes there's a "test yourself" aspect, and yes it does sound like you're trying to weasel out of what being a really good supporter of women would look like. And I don't mean this in an attack way, it's hard to be in this position, but from your explanation, as someone nominally compassionate to your friend they already sound like they're basically not trying. I'd take some time off from them and maybe circle back around later to see if anything has changed. It's easy to talk about change and very difficult to make it. There are ways you can concretely help without getting all stuck in their quicksand.
posted by jessamyn at 9:22 AM on June 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
Exactly. One of the traits I often associate with people with substance abuse issues and other social problems is, oddly enough, a sort of weird charm or charisma that allows them to stay within spaces where they are allowed to do this much longer than they would otherwise. That is, whatever it is that is compelling you to "keep trying" with this person is also part of their personality that allows them to be able to keep accessing and assaulting people. It's not "Oh this is a good friend who somehow is also a drunk and someone who assaults people what a weird coincidence..." as much as "I may feel close to and want to help this person specifically because of the combination of personality traits that also includes their addiction and bad behavior" Anyone who has an addict in the family knows this "You have to help me you're my only hope!" thing. And it's rarely, if ever, true.
If I understand you correctly there was an intervention and THEN this assault happened? I think I'd be a lot less lenient with them and forgiving. They were given, one presumes, an ultimatum. They abused the community's trust. They hurt someone. While I don't think you have to choose exactly I think you can very well be open about supporting the assaulted person (with your friend and with the community) and make your word and deed be on Team Her. And yes there's a "test yourself" aspect, and yes it does sound like you're trying to weasel out of what being a really good supporter of women would look like. And I don't mean this in an attack way, it's hard to be in this position, but from your explanation, as someone nominally compassionate to your friend they already sound like they're basically not trying. I'd take some time off from them and maybe circle back around later to see if anything has changed. It's easy to talk about change and very difficult to make it. There are ways you can concretely help without getting all stuck in their quicksand.
posted by jessamyn at 9:22 AM on June 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
He will have to hit rock bottom before he even has a chance of changing,
I just want to note that this is, basically, dogma (deeply rooted in a very Christian perspective) that is unsupported by a decent evidence base. AA doesn’t have great stats (in part because of their community-driven model and processes). People can only offer patchy anecdotal stories about this or that individual.
No one changes *for* other people. Each of us is intrinsically self-serving, I haven’t seen any research or evidence in life to counter this; on the contrary, what I have read and experienced and observed is that self-esteem, self-regard, and a sense of hopeful purpose are the foundation of constructive action.
(And empathy can only - just because of the limitations of our hard and software - be an extrapolation *from* self - remembered experiences; constructs). I have not found it to be realistic to expect transformation to *turn* on self-abnegation, or deep altruism - especially not in a person whose brain has been compromised by alcohol abuse, and maybe, developmental issues that could contribute to problems with impulse control. They only see themselves, their pain, their rationalizations. In part because that’s what their brains let them do.
Recognizing an addictive, abusive person’s value isn’t a moral imperative, necessarily. It’s an instrumental, efficacious one. It works. People change when they see and *feel* that something new is or could be better than what they were doing before. When there is something better to do than drink. When they *can* find more benign comforts and analgesics.
It is true that imposing punishment is useful, in contributing to making what was “before” less appealing. But people also need an idea of an “after”. Something *else* to look forward to, different coping skills, other possibilities.
People who have been directly hurt by an abusive alcoholic are in no position to help them and should (for many reasons, not least self-protection) establish firm boundaries, no doubt. (I know this from personal experience.)
A less involved but caring person who can stand behind an individual while rightly calling out their *actions* is in a different position. Needing boundaries, too. And definitely not able to make change happen, on their own. But they may be positioned to point to hopeful possibilities that could benefit this person, and their community (even if that is just by reducing the noxious effects of that person’s behaviour).
Your friend is going to meet their fate one way or another, it’s their life to live. I think if you are able to be a friend - not an enabler, but a supporter - it could - maybe, fractionally - help tilt them towards a more positive one, for them and others.
many people are really, actually, literally broke (that is, genuinely working class broke, not just short-of-cash but insured middle class) and have a lot of difficulty accessing support services, especially support services that are not on an AA model and/or that are queer/trans friendly or welcoming to POC.
This is true, and a shame. I hope there are local alternatives for your friend. There may be.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:26 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I just want to note that this is, basically, dogma (deeply rooted in a very Christian perspective) that is unsupported by a decent evidence base. AA doesn’t have great stats (in part because of their community-driven model and processes). People can only offer patchy anecdotal stories about this or that individual.
No one changes *for* other people. Each of us is intrinsically self-serving, I haven’t seen any research or evidence in life to counter this; on the contrary, what I have read and experienced and observed is that self-esteem, self-regard, and a sense of hopeful purpose are the foundation of constructive action.
(And empathy can only - just because of the limitations of our hard and software - be an extrapolation *from* self - remembered experiences; constructs). I have not found it to be realistic to expect transformation to *turn* on self-abnegation, or deep altruism - especially not in a person whose brain has been compromised by alcohol abuse, and maybe, developmental issues that could contribute to problems with impulse control. They only see themselves, their pain, their rationalizations. In part because that’s what their brains let them do.
Recognizing an addictive, abusive person’s value isn’t a moral imperative, necessarily. It’s an instrumental, efficacious one. It works. People change when they see and *feel* that something new is or could be better than what they were doing before. When there is something better to do than drink. When they *can* find more benign comforts and analgesics.
It is true that imposing punishment is useful, in contributing to making what was “before” less appealing. But people also need an idea of an “after”. Something *else* to look forward to, different coping skills, other possibilities.
People who have been directly hurt by an abusive alcoholic are in no position to help them and should (for many reasons, not least self-protection) establish firm boundaries, no doubt. (I know this from personal experience.)
A less involved but caring person who can stand behind an individual while rightly calling out their *actions* is in a different position. Needing boundaries, too. And definitely not able to make change happen, on their own. But they may be positioned to point to hopeful possibilities that could benefit this person, and their community (even if that is just by reducing the noxious effects of that person’s behaviour).
Your friend is going to meet their fate one way or another, it’s their life to live. I think if you are able to be a friend - not an enabler, but a supporter - it could - maybe, fractionally - help tilt them towards a more positive one, for them and others.
many people are really, actually, literally broke (that is, genuinely working class broke, not just short-of-cash but insured middle class) and have a lot of difficulty accessing support services, especially support services that are not on an AA model and/or that are queer/trans friendly or welcoming to POC.
This is true, and a shame. I hope there are local alternatives for your friend. There may be.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:26 AM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
On top of the sage advice offered here, I'm going to add that the word "grope" can be pretty diminishing, as it is usually used to add a kind of "boys will be boys" flavor to describing the act of invading a woman's personal space to touch her body without her consent.
To wit, when I was twenty-something, I was wearing a sheer-ish, long, summery dress and walking down a main drag in Chicago. A guy came trotting toward me out of a car wash I passed, followed me for a block, then ran up to me, lifted up my dress, and touched my ass. He laughed and ran back to the car wash, which I'm assuming is where he worked. There was a police precinct two blocks away. I went there and told the cop on duty I'd just been assaulted by a guy at the car wash two blocks away. He told me if I didn't want to get "groped" I should wear something less revealing. He wouldn't even take a formal complaint or go down and talk to the guy. He thought it was kinda funny, I think.
I think you should give yourself some time away from this particular friendship because you may, upon reflection, start to view him and his behavior a little differently, once you fully understand what preconceptions you're bringing to the table, and have listened to and absorbed the woman's perspective in this matter.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 11:16 AM on June 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
To wit, when I was twenty-something, I was wearing a sheer-ish, long, summery dress and walking down a main drag in Chicago. A guy came trotting toward me out of a car wash I passed, followed me for a block, then ran up to me, lifted up my dress, and touched my ass. He laughed and ran back to the car wash, which I'm assuming is where he worked. There was a police precinct two blocks away. I went there and told the cop on duty I'd just been assaulted by a guy at the car wash two blocks away. He told me if I didn't want to get "groped" I should wear something less revealing. He wouldn't even take a formal complaint or go down and talk to the guy. He thought it was kinda funny, I think.
I think you should give yourself some time away from this particular friendship because you may, upon reflection, start to view him and his behavior a little differently, once you fully understand what preconceptions you're bringing to the table, and have listened to and absorbed the woman's perspective in this matter.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 11:16 AM on June 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
I agree with a lot of what others have said, in terms of staying friends only if he's made it clear that he understands it is a problem, and is getting help.
Having a long, sad personal history with both sexual assault, and abusers of all kinds, I'd also say that you make any friendship you have contingent upon him talking to you about the help he's getting, and making it clear that your friendship hinges on him continuing to get help.
It is not enough to talk to him and have him just say he saw the light and say that he's going to find a problem/find a therapist/get help. He has to DO those things to keep your friendship. He has to understand that because of his behavior, he's in a kind of "friendship probation" with you, where your friendship does come with the string that you're involved in making sure that he's getting help.
I say this mainly because - given the complex feelings that you've written about - if you *really* want to stay friends with this guy to help him, the only real way you can "help" him is to help him help himself, by making it crystal clear that you expect him getting better to be a large part of his life now. A life project, until it improves.
If you want to stay friends without getting involved at that level, then it's likely that you'll mainly be an enabler. It sounds like you wouldn't want to do that.
If you decide not to stay friends with him, how do you feel about telling him why you're not staying friends with him? Again, this is mainly if you decide you want to "help" him. It may be worthwhile to make it clear to him that his own actions ended the friendship. In case there is a kernel of awareness in there, telling him point-blank that the result of his despicable actions is the end of a friendship in plain English may help that kernel to grow into enough will for him to do something about it. Or it might just make him angry. No real way to know unless you do it.
I keep putting "help" in quotes because the only person who can really help him is himself. If he refuses to see what he did was wrong, and refuses to get help, there is absolutely nothing you can do.
posted by love in light at 11:30 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
Having a long, sad personal history with both sexual assault, and abusers of all kinds, I'd also say that you make any friendship you have contingent upon him talking to you about the help he's getting, and making it clear that your friendship hinges on him continuing to get help.
It is not enough to talk to him and have him just say he saw the light and say that he's going to find a problem/find a therapist/get help. He has to DO those things to keep your friendship. He has to understand that because of his behavior, he's in a kind of "friendship probation" with you, where your friendship does come with the string that you're involved in making sure that he's getting help.
I say this mainly because - given the complex feelings that you've written about - if you *really* want to stay friends with this guy to help him, the only real way you can "help" him is to help him help himself, by making it crystal clear that you expect him getting better to be a large part of his life now. A life project, until it improves.
If you want to stay friends without getting involved at that level, then it's likely that you'll mainly be an enabler. It sounds like you wouldn't want to do that.
If you decide not to stay friends with him, how do you feel about telling him why you're not staying friends with him? Again, this is mainly if you decide you want to "help" him. It may be worthwhile to make it clear to him that his own actions ended the friendship. In case there is a kernel of awareness in there, telling him point-blank that the result of his despicable actions is the end of a friendship in plain English may help that kernel to grow into enough will for him to do something about it. Or it might just make him angry. No real way to know unless you do it.
I keep putting "help" in quotes because the only person who can really help him is himself. If he refuses to see what he did was wrong, and refuses to get help, there is absolutely nothing you can do.
posted by love in light at 11:30 AM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
You can't be their friend if being their friend means going to bars or hanging out with them in social situations that are feeding their behavior.
Do they even see what they've done? Do they even acknowledge the event? Most people don't own up to this stuff and that makes recovery impossible.
Being a good friend here means getting them into treatment. Not into parties or bars. Being a good friend here will not be fun for you. Those days passed when their 'fun' started involving sexually assaulting people.
posted by French Fry at 1:18 PM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
Do they even see what they've done? Do they even acknowledge the event? Most people don't own up to this stuff and that makes recovery impossible.
Being a good friend here means getting them into treatment. Not into parties or bars. Being a good friend here will not be fun for you. Those days passed when their 'fun' started involving sexually assaulting people.
posted by French Fry at 1:18 PM on June 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, I want to support my friend and help them become a decent human being, assuming that is even possible.
I guess my question is what real, actual, practical steps you think you can take to make this happen.
If you don't have an answer for that, and don't have a timeline where you can decide if you have actually helped them in anyway, you are, in fact, supporting your friend, but in a different way.
You're enabling your friend.
posted by maxsparber at 1:46 PM on June 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess my question is what real, actual, practical steps you think you can take to make this happen.
If you don't have an answer for that, and don't have a timeline where you can decide if you have actually helped them in anyway, you are, in fact, supporting your friend, but in a different way.
You're enabling your friend.
posted by maxsparber at 1:46 PM on June 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is a lot of mis-information about addiction and recovery in this thread. See "Rock Bottom Myths: A common idea is that addicts need to lose everything before they will be willing to get help... There is no advantage in having a low rock bottom."
You can manage this as a relationship with a person you want to support. You would probably benefit from going to a Nar-Anon meeting or similar to learn how to make, be confident in, and defend your boundaries. But, basically, you should make it clear that you will not going anywhere serving alcohol with him, and will only see him sober. If he is drunk or high, you have to be firm enough with yourself to walk literally away.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:32 PM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
You can manage this as a relationship with a person you want to support. You would probably benefit from going to a Nar-Anon meeting or similar to learn how to make, be confident in, and defend your boundaries. But, basically, you should make it clear that you will not going anywhere serving alcohol with him, and will only see him sober. If he is drunk or high, you have to be firm enough with yourself to walk literally away.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:32 PM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
Frowner is giving some massively important context. As much as you want to feel like your situation is unique, it isn't and it fits a common pattern.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:45 PM on June 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:45 PM on June 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
To clarify my earlier point, abuse and addiction are separate. Lots of people who have substance use issues don't sexually assault people. My advice to cut ties is in response to abusive behaviour. To cut ties till they've had therapy.
Substance use issues are different. There are lots of highly functional alcoholics and other drug users. They're often correlated, but not on the causal pathway. The abuse/assault is the first priority as that's harming others, I believe.
(I'm not using gendered language as you haven't and non binary and women/women violence is a very real phenomenon. CisHet normativity is marginalising.)
posted by taff at 3:47 PM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
Substance use issues are different. There are lots of highly functional alcoholics and other drug users. They're often correlated, but not on the causal pathway. The abuse/assault is the first priority as that's harming others, I believe.
(I'm not using gendered language as you haven't and non binary and women/women violence is a very real phenomenon. CisHet normativity is marginalising.)
posted by taff at 3:47 PM on June 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's worth keeping in mind that while the mainstream press and society in general seems to feed us the idea that the victim of an assault is somehow elevated, the truth is that the victim of a sexual assault (or other gendered violence) has the scale weighted against her, and the perpetrator benefits from the weighted scale. Choosing to side with him adds more weight that the victim has to combat. Victims are generally dealing with internalized as well as external misogynist narratives that center the abuser's pain and dismiss their own suffering. Friends not making it clear that they believe her and support her -- not just with empty words, but by standing with her and against the abuser -- add to that internal and external pressure and suffering.
posted by lazuli at 8:49 PM on June 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 8:49 PM on June 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to attempt this.
First of all, if you hang out with your friend still you can be the one to point out, "Dude, you are starting to get pretty drunk. Last time you did that you turned into a real jerk. I think it's time to take it home or turn it off."
Second of all, if you hang out with your friend you can be the one to warn people, "My friend gets abusive when she/he's been drinking - you can chat her/him up if you want to but she/he's the kind of jerk who is going to think it's an invitation to get into your pants and will get nasty when she/he finds out it isn't"
When you talk to your other friends do not try to defend your friend. All you have to do is agree with them when they say that your friend is a mean drunk and that what they did was sexual assault If they ask you why you would hang out with your friend, tell them it's because you feel hanging out with an abuser puts you in a position to warn other people that the bottom step is broken. Your peer group can ban your friend from their after parties, and should, since they have more responsibility to each other than to that one dangerous person, and you can still take their side.
"You can't go to the after party after what you did. You hurt Hailey and you've scared a bunch of them. They don't want you."
You can also enter dialogue with your friend and point out that while an apology to the people who got hurt is probably unwelcome, your friend now owes a debt, and there are many things that they can do to make amends, if not to the injured parties directly, ranging from simple financial donations to battered women's shelters, and anti misogynist advocacy.
There is a good chance that your friend is dealing with shame so bad that they are using denial to deal with it, so oddly enough, you may get good results by forgiveness and acceptance. You might be in a position to connect them with people or stories about people who were abusers and who overcame it and learned self control, and made restitution.
Having said all that.... It is a great deal more likely that your friend will either be in denial that they did anything wrong, or will go into a cycle of abuse and penitence where any attempt they make at rehabilitating themself is like the alcoholic who goes dry while keeping a 12 ounce of vodka under the kitchen sink for when they resume drinking. You probably can't be honest and faithful and stay friends with your friend and not betray your other friends. You can only try.
If you speak honestly to your friend they may turn on you, so be prepared for your friend to get drunk and attack you.
There is, within all of us, the potential to be an abuser. For some of us it would take a serious brain injury instead of half a bottle of tequila. Many of us only require a single insult to the ego before we could be tipped over the edge into evil. However it's still there in all of us, and one way to prevent abuse is to keep in mind that you could be an abuser, and it is up to you to figure out what would tip you over and make sure you never end up in that situation. Instead we have a tendency to draw a circle and exclude people, putting ourselves and the people we accept in the circle and the people that we don't accept on the outside. But the simple act of drawing this line rather than regarding it as a permeable membrane means that sometimes we draw the line with the abuser inside it. You cannot draw a line that excludes the abusers. You have to learn to watch for it everywhere with gentleness and strength so that you are un-surprised and become a protector at any time and in any situation.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:41 AM on June 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
First of all, if you hang out with your friend still you can be the one to point out, "Dude, you are starting to get pretty drunk. Last time you did that you turned into a real jerk. I think it's time to take it home or turn it off."
Second of all, if you hang out with your friend you can be the one to warn people, "My friend gets abusive when she/he's been drinking - you can chat her/him up if you want to but she/he's the kind of jerk who is going to think it's an invitation to get into your pants and will get nasty when she/he finds out it isn't"
When you talk to your other friends do not try to defend your friend. All you have to do is agree with them when they say that your friend is a mean drunk and that what they did was sexual assault If they ask you why you would hang out with your friend, tell them it's because you feel hanging out with an abuser puts you in a position to warn other people that the bottom step is broken. Your peer group can ban your friend from their after parties, and should, since they have more responsibility to each other than to that one dangerous person, and you can still take their side.
"You can't go to the after party after what you did. You hurt Hailey and you've scared a bunch of them. They don't want you."
You can also enter dialogue with your friend and point out that while an apology to the people who got hurt is probably unwelcome, your friend now owes a debt, and there are many things that they can do to make amends, if not to the injured parties directly, ranging from simple financial donations to battered women's shelters, and anti misogynist advocacy.
There is a good chance that your friend is dealing with shame so bad that they are using denial to deal with it, so oddly enough, you may get good results by forgiveness and acceptance. You might be in a position to connect them with people or stories about people who were abusers and who overcame it and learned self control, and made restitution.
Having said all that.... It is a great deal more likely that your friend will either be in denial that they did anything wrong, or will go into a cycle of abuse and penitence where any attempt they make at rehabilitating themself is like the alcoholic who goes dry while keeping a 12 ounce of vodka under the kitchen sink for when they resume drinking. You probably can't be honest and faithful and stay friends with your friend and not betray your other friends. You can only try.
If you speak honestly to your friend they may turn on you, so be prepared for your friend to get drunk and attack you.
There is, within all of us, the potential to be an abuser. For some of us it would take a serious brain injury instead of half a bottle of tequila. Many of us only require a single insult to the ego before we could be tipped over the edge into evil. However it's still there in all of us, and one way to prevent abuse is to keep in mind that you could be an abuser, and it is up to you to figure out what would tip you over and make sure you never end up in that situation. Instead we have a tendency to draw a circle and exclude people, putting ourselves and the people we accept in the circle and the people that we don't accept on the outside. But the simple act of drawing this line rather than regarding it as a permeable membrane means that sometimes we draw the line with the abuser inside it. You cannot draw a line that excludes the abusers. You have to learn to watch for it everywhere with gentleness and strength so that you are un-surprised and become a protector at any time and in any situation.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:41 AM on June 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
They have always had a problem with over-drinking and drugs, which has got worse..
I don't want to put the women in my life through the pain of being in parties/bars with someone who is known to have been a total creep
Respectfully: WHY would you hang out in "parties/bars" with someone who you know has a long-term problem with OVER-DRINKING AND DRUGS?
WHY would "partying" be the thing that you continue to do with an addict? Why were you enabling their addiction(s) in the first place, prior to the physical assault?
If you want to be a friend to this person, I think you need to go to an AA meeting and figure out what an appropriate friendship with an addict and an abuser can look like. Because it doesn't look like "being in parties/bars with Known Addict".
posted by Gray Skies at 6:17 AM on June 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't want to put the women in my life through the pain of being in parties/bars with someone who is known to have been a total creep
Respectfully: WHY would you hang out in "parties/bars" with someone who you know has a long-term problem with OVER-DRINKING AND DRUGS?
WHY would "partying" be the thing that you continue to do with an addict? Why were you enabling their addiction(s) in the first place, prior to the physical assault?
If you want to be a friend to this person, I think you need to go to an AA meeting and figure out what an appropriate friendship with an addict and an abuser can look like. Because it doesn't look like "being in parties/bars with Known Addict".
posted by Gray Skies at 6:17 AM on June 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
this person is likely a threat and should not be welcome in spaces our peer group are trying to make safe
I don't see a way to square the circle, here. You want to tolerate abuse, but you don't want people to react to you tolerating abuse.
If trying to help them through this is that important to you, you take the hit. I'd recommend self-segregating in that case, because it's not fair to your other friends to force them to make the same decision extended one person out.
If not, nobody could blame you, really. As you said yourself, "They have always had a problem with over-drinking and drugs, which has got worse as we have gotten older". If being in their lives and supporting them would've made them a better person, they probably would've done so already (instead of getting worse).
What's changed now that makes this feel like things will change for the better?
posted by CrystalDave at 12:12 AM on June 15, 2016 [14 favorites]