Should I help a colleague with a job? Even if I find them mildly evil?
May 26, 2016 4:12 AM Subscribe
This is the prettiest question I've asked and I feel pretty crap asking it. However, I'm a student about to enter the working world for the first time, so I don't know what the rules are around this kind of thing. Help please?
I have a classmate that I don't really like. We have very different personalities, but more annoyingly, she has done things that not many in our cohort consider kind (i.e., throw someone under the bus so she could get published first, blame someone else for a work mistake that she told us she actually did) so I just don't mesh well with her. We are all about to graduate and are looking for jobs.
Last summer, I landed this internship with a government agency by some miracle. I gained contacts and got a good review from my preceptor, they encouraged me to apply for a job when I graduated and would provide references. I did apply for a fellowship there, but was not qualified. I'm pretty embarrassed, and didn't want to disappoint my preceptor, so I haven't talked to her since.
Everyone knows where we go for our internship, so this classmate, C, texted me yesterday. We all know she wants to work for this agency and I distinctly (and bitterly) remember her comment that she was surprised I got the internship and not her. Now, she wants me to give her the email of my preceptor. I haven't yet, and then she followed up with "I'm going to apply for a position there and I want you to give a good word with your preceptor. Can you give me her email? And email her about me. Thanks."
The petty side of me wants to do neither. But I know there's some kind of obligation I have here to my classmates, right? Like being fair. Or that thing where if I wanted to know an email of someone, it would be good karma to do the same. I also don't know why she wants an email address from me, it's very easy to find on LinkedIn or from our program director.
Someone tell me that I'm being petty and I should just give the email address and the...recommendation. I think I feel so hesitant because I'm not fond of her and because I'm afraid she will take the opportunity to get a job there while I, the failure intern, didn't. What is the proper thing to do here?
I have a classmate that I don't really like. We have very different personalities, but more annoyingly, she has done things that not many in our cohort consider kind (i.e., throw someone under the bus so she could get published first, blame someone else for a work mistake that she told us she actually did) so I just don't mesh well with her. We are all about to graduate and are looking for jobs.
Last summer, I landed this internship with a government agency by some miracle. I gained contacts and got a good review from my preceptor, they encouraged me to apply for a job when I graduated and would provide references. I did apply for a fellowship there, but was not qualified. I'm pretty embarrassed, and didn't want to disappoint my preceptor, so I haven't talked to her since.
Everyone knows where we go for our internship, so this classmate, C, texted me yesterday. We all know she wants to work for this agency and I distinctly (and bitterly) remember her comment that she was surprised I got the internship and not her. Now, she wants me to give her the email of my preceptor. I haven't yet, and then she followed up with "I'm going to apply for a position there and I want you to give a good word with your preceptor. Can you give me her email? And email her about me. Thanks."
The petty side of me wants to do neither. But I know there's some kind of obligation I have here to my classmates, right? Like being fair. Or that thing where if I wanted to know an email of someone, it would be good karma to do the same. I also don't know why she wants an email address from me, it's very easy to find on LinkedIn or from our program director.
Someone tell me that I'm being petty and I should just give the email address and the...recommendation. I think I feel so hesitant because I'm not fond of her and because I'm afraid she will take the opportunity to get a job there while I, the failure intern, didn't. What is the proper thing to do here?
Recommendations are a reflection of your judgement. I wouldn't recommend someone if I couldn't genuinely say something good about them. On the email you could say you don't feel comfortable giving it out but that it's easy to find on LinkedIn.
posted by crocomancer at 4:24 AM on May 26, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by crocomancer at 4:24 AM on May 26, 2016 [27 favorites]
Contacts are a currency that should not be devalued.
This is not pettiness, it is being savvy about your professional reputation. Find a face-saving way out if you can. Like: "She would not appreciate me sharing her personal contact information so I'm afraid I can't help you. Good luck!"
posted by oneaday at 4:25 AM on May 26, 2016 [66 favorites]
This is not pettiness, it is being savvy about your professional reputation. Find a face-saving way out if you can. Like: "She would not appreciate me sharing her personal contact information so I'm afraid I can't help you. Good luck!"
posted by oneaday at 4:25 AM on May 26, 2016 [66 favorites]
You absolutely do not have to give the information to your preceptor. Nor should you EVER recommend anyone you have misgivings about. What you say to this colleague is, "I don't feel comfortable doing that." She may not take no for an answer but just keep saying, "I'm not going to do that."
NEVER feel embarrassed about applying for something and not getting it. That will happen 99% of the time in super-competitive situations. Call your preceptor and tell her, "Hi Gwen, I wanted to reconnect with you."
Also, it wasn't a miracle that you got the initial internship. You earned it!
Accept that you won't get every job or scholarship and that it only means that for whatever reason it went to someone else. It's not a failure, it's just how things are. When you're excellent at something you usually have lots of success behind you. When you start getting into Grad school or into higher levels at your job, you'll start to notice that people are as smart or worse, smarter than you are. It doesn't diminish you. I remember the first time I realized that I wasn't the smartest person in the room, and it shook me a bit, then I felt relief.
But no, do not give this woman anything.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [28 favorites]
NEVER feel embarrassed about applying for something and not getting it. That will happen 99% of the time in super-competitive situations. Call your preceptor and tell her, "Hi Gwen, I wanted to reconnect with you."
Also, it wasn't a miracle that you got the initial internship. You earned it!
Accept that you won't get every job or scholarship and that it only means that for whatever reason it went to someone else. It's not a failure, it's just how things are. When you're excellent at something you usually have lots of success behind you. When you start getting into Grad school or into higher levels at your job, you'll start to notice that people are as smart or worse, smarter than you are. It doesn't diminish you. I remember the first time I realized that I wasn't the smartest person in the room, and it shook me a bit, then I felt relief.
But no, do not give this woman anything.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [28 favorites]
I did apply for a fellowship there, but was not qualified. I'm pretty embarrassed, and didn't want to disappoint my preceptor, so I haven't talked to her since.
Firstly, I really want to point out that this kind of thinking is doing nothing more than getting in your way. You should contact this supportive person so she knows your status! (Your "was not qualified" language makes it sound like you may have been weeded out of the applicant pool automatically? Your supportive mentor could possibly have cut through that red tape and/or redirect you toward a position -- whether at her company or elsewhere -- you're more likely to get.)
The petty side of me wants to do neither. But I know there's some kind of obligation I have here to my classmates, right? Like being fair.
Recommending someone you don't trust is much more likely to harm your relationship with a potential mentor than communicating your embarrassment at not getting the job yourself.
posted by nobody at 4:27 AM on May 26, 2016 [35 favorites]
Firstly, I really want to point out that this kind of thinking is doing nothing more than getting in your way. You should contact this supportive person so she knows your status! (Your "was not qualified" language makes it sound like you may have been weeded out of the applicant pool automatically? Your supportive mentor could possibly have cut through that red tape and/or redirect you toward a position -- whether at her company or elsewhere -- you're more likely to get.)
The petty side of me wants to do neither. But I know there's some kind of obligation I have here to my classmates, right? Like being fair.
Recommending someone you don't trust is much more likely to harm your relationship with a potential mentor than communicating your embarrassment at not getting the job yourself.
posted by nobody at 4:27 AM on May 26, 2016 [35 favorites]
Nope. Only give a recommendation you can stand behind. (Also get in touch with the preceptor - they encouraged you to apply for the fellowship so they thought you would be a good fit. That the committee didn't agree about your qualifications really has no bearing on the preceptor's opinion of you - I bet they'd like to stay in touch and might be useful to you later in your career!)
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 4:28 AM on May 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 4:28 AM on May 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
You aren't a failure because you didn't get one job post-internship. Your boss liked you. Keep in touch with them and reframe your attitude. (It wasn't a miracle you got the internship; not getting a fellowhip isn't an embarrassment, it just happens sometimes; you aren't a failure)
Also, you don't need to put in a good word for your classmate.
posted by studioaudience at 4:30 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, you don't need to put in a good word for your classmate.
posted by studioaudience at 4:30 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you wouldn't recommend her on a professional level, personal and collegial history aside, right? If it were just a matter of clashing personalities or jealousy, and you thought she was otherwise talented and qualified, I'd recommend sucking it up and going ahead with the recommendation. But it sounds like she's not a good team player and would end up being a liability. You're not obligated to recommend anyone sucky!
I would probably make up some excuse about how your preceptor doesn't want other people giving out her info. If the colleague does end up finding her and dropping your name (she will), and your preceptor asks you, be as diplomatic as you can in your response. Don't mention anything personal, but it's okay to express reservations.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:34 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would probably make up some excuse about how your preceptor doesn't want other people giving out her info. If the colleague does end up finding her and dropping your name (she will), and your preceptor asks you, be as diplomatic as you can in your response. Don't mention anything personal, but it's okay to express reservations.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:34 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I want you to give a good word with your preceptor
Also, I find this language to be inappropriate and it would turn me off right there. Not being your manager or boss, your classmate doesn't get to demand that you do something like this. (Even if I were asking a very close friend whom I already knew/assumed would give me a good recommendation, I would always phrase it as a question -- it's only the polite/professional thing to do.)
posted by andrewesque at 4:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [41 favorites]
Also, I find this language to be inappropriate and it would turn me off right there. Not being your manager or boss, your classmate doesn't get to demand that you do something like this. (Even if I were asking a very close friend whom I already knew/assumed would give me a good recommendation, I would always phrase it as a question -- it's only the polite/professional thing to do.)
posted by andrewesque at 4:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [41 favorites]
There is no moral obligation purely because, through the winds of the paths that led you there, you were both in the same school cohort.
Imagine the future, where you're the one getting applications - would you want to work with this person? Someone who doesn't take responsibility for their errors is a liability in the professional world, moreso than someone who makes errors, recognizes them, and corrects them.
posted by cobaltnine at 4:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Imagine the future, where you're the one getting applications - would you want to work with this person? Someone who doesn't take responsibility for their errors is a liability in the professional world, moreso than someone who makes errors, recognizes them, and corrects them.
posted by cobaltnine at 4:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
If I was in one hiring for the position, and got a recommendation from you for someone who later turned out to be underhanded, unprincipled and dishonest, and worse found out that you knew all that when you sent the recommendation, I would be annoyed. And you would plummet in my estimation.
So, nthing on the nope. Don't do it because you feel pressured to or want to avoid an ugly situation with your classmate.
posted by ianso at 4:51 AM on May 26, 2016 [13 favorites]
So, nthing on the nope. Don't do it because you feel pressured to or want to avoid an ugly situation with your classmate.
posted by ianso at 4:51 AM on May 26, 2016 [13 favorites]
You are most certainly not being petty when you say you don't want to help people like this.
Say you did recommend her, then she continues to act (as she will, because people don't change!) in the ways she has always acted.... difficult person to deal with, blames others for her own errors, throws teammates under the bus for her personal benefit. The employer will then have doubts about your judgement.
Not only do you not have to recommend her, I'll go farther and say that you don't even have to respond to her emails demanding that recommendation. (She's too lazy to look up the preceptor's email herself? She can do that herself.) And don't worry that refusing to help this person will avoid her ugly behavior: she's just being semi-polite now because she wants to use you, as soon as she got what she wanted she'd be back to her usual mildly-evil self.
posted by easily confused at 4:59 AM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Say you did recommend her, then she continues to act (as she will, because people don't change!) in the ways she has always acted.... difficult person to deal with, blames others for her own errors, throws teammates under the bus for her personal benefit. The employer will then have doubts about your judgement.
Not only do you not have to recommend her, I'll go farther and say that you don't even have to respond to her emails demanding that recommendation. (She's too lazy to look up the preceptor's email herself? She can do that herself.) And don't worry that refusing to help this person will avoid her ugly behavior: she's just being semi-polite now because she wants to use you, as soon as she got what she wanted she'd be back to her usual mildly-evil self.
posted by easily confused at 4:59 AM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure why you are even considering giving her a recommendation. It sounds like you very much wouldn't recommend her, and for good reason. It would be dishonest of you to put in a good word for her, and if she managed to alienate her new colleagues, which sounds reasonably likely, it sure wouldn't help you any to have people associate you with her.
posted by mister pointy at 5:12 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mister pointy at 5:12 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
"I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that won't be possible"
posted by brand-gnu at 5:22 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by brand-gnu at 5:22 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm a professor. Giving and receiving recommendations is embedded in the job. Giving feedback is also a part of the job. You're under absolutely zero obligation to do this, but you could do what professors are expected to do and provide your colleague with a reason why you don't feel you can give her a recommendation. "I'm sorry colleague, I cannot provide you with a strong recommendation and will therefore abstain. While I appreciate how driven you are, I do not see you as a team player. For this reason, I don't feel you would be a match for this agency. Best of luck in your search."
Ignore all push back. Again, you are under no obligation to do this, but just know that refusing to give recommendations happens all the time and that some of us go further than a simple refusal.
Definitely do not give a recommendation unless you believe in the candidate.
posted by Milau at 5:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ignore all push back. Again, you are under no obligation to do this, but just know that refusing to give recommendations happens all the time and that some of us go further than a simple refusal.
Definitely do not give a recommendation unless you believe in the candidate.
posted by Milau at 5:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with others re the contacting your preceptor. Two different issues arise from your question and the more important one is that you are blowing off someone who might seriously benefit your career. Get in touch asap to let them know what's going on with you and re-establish your relationship.
Tell your classmate you are out of touch with your preceptor and don't put her in touch.
posted by biffa at 5:27 AM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Tell your classmate you are out of touch with your preceptor and don't put her in touch.
posted by biffa at 5:27 AM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Based on my past experience of you, I'm not comfortable recommending you."
posted by nandaro at 5:36 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by nandaro at 5:36 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
What is the proper thing to do here?
I halfway agree with the consensus. Contacts are indeed "currency," as someone said, and it is imperative that you trust your gut in that department. Your own livelihood will depend on it. For me personally, the anecdote about your classmate dishonestly blaming her mistake on someone else would seal the answer: no recommendation.
However, this is one of those moments when I wonder if you aren't making a mistake asking for advice from—pardon, but as Aaron Sorkin says—the pajama people on the Internet, rather than from your classmates or colleagues. I doubt many professionals would advise you to respond to your classmate in the blunt, clumsy, and frankly foolish ways people are recommending here.
White lies are a thing, and you rarely owe anyone complete, unfettered honesty. I'm a litigation attorney, about as assertive in the workplace as anyone you'll meet, and I have no trouble telling you to avoid being too honest with this particular classmate. You're not her father and you don't owe her any setting-straight. What you want is to steer clear of her. Turning her into an enemy is a dumb way to attempt that. Decline or dodge the request, but do so politely and without telling her why.
posted by cribcage at 5:57 AM on May 26, 2016 [50 favorites]
I halfway agree with the consensus. Contacts are indeed "currency," as someone said, and it is imperative that you trust your gut in that department. Your own livelihood will depend on it. For me personally, the anecdote about your classmate dishonestly blaming her mistake on someone else would seal the answer: no recommendation.
However, this is one of those moments when I wonder if you aren't making a mistake asking for advice from—pardon, but as Aaron Sorkin says—the pajama people on the Internet, rather than from your classmates or colleagues. I doubt many professionals would advise you to respond to your classmate in the blunt, clumsy, and frankly foolish ways people are recommending here.
White lies are a thing, and you rarely owe anyone complete, unfettered honesty. I'm a litigation attorney, about as assertive in the workplace as anyone you'll meet, and I have no trouble telling you to avoid being too honest with this particular classmate. You're not her father and you don't owe her any setting-straight. What you want is to steer clear of her. Turning her into an enemy is a dumb way to attempt that. Decline or dodge the request, but do so politely and without telling her why.
posted by cribcage at 5:57 AM on May 26, 2016 [50 favorites]
Even if she's a jerk, it would be polite to give her your preceptor's contact information (assuming that it is publicly available through at least some channel). Remain silent on the recommendation. If she pushes you later about whether you recommended her, you can just say "I'm sorry, I didn't really feel it was appropriate" or even tell a white lie.
If she drops your name anyway, and your preceptor asks you about her, then you can honestly say something like: "She's smart and capable but, frankly, I would not recommend her for the position." Don't go into details, because badmouthing other people in your industry never makes you look good. A simple disrecommendation is honest and tactful, and shows a confidence in your own judgement.
Also, yes, do get back in touch with your preceptor. There is absolutely no reason to be embarrassed about not getting a specific job, and she seems like a great future contact who is currently in your corner. Don't let that wither.
posted by 256 at 6:01 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
If she drops your name anyway, and your preceptor asks you about her, then you can honestly say something like: "She's smart and capable but, frankly, I would not recommend her for the position." Don't go into details, because badmouthing other people in your industry never makes you look good. A simple disrecommendation is honest and tactful, and shows a confidence in your own judgement.
Also, yes, do get back in touch with your preceptor. There is absolutely no reason to be embarrassed about not getting a specific job, and she seems like a great future contact who is currently in your corner. Don't let that wither.
posted by 256 at 6:01 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I agree with cribcage - you're under zero obligation to recommend someone you don't want to recommend, and indeed it's a really terrible idea to give a dishonest recommendation of someone. Ultimately it could blow back on you when the person you lied to found out that the classmate did not live up to your recommendation. But I don't think you need to be 100% honest with your classmate about why you're not doing the recommendation - I think it's perfectly fine to just say that you're not comfortable giving it (or just dodge her emails).
As far as the email address, I would probably send back something bland along the lines of "The best place to get Janine's contact info would be to check with our program director. Best of luck!"
posted by rainbowbrite at 6:03 AM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
As far as the email address, I would probably send back something bland along the lines of "The best place to get Janine's contact info would be to check with our program director. Best of luck!"
posted by rainbowbrite at 6:03 AM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hoisted by her own petard. Amazing, it's like bullying, underhanded tactics, and bluster will only take you so far in life before you run into that pesky "nobody trusts you at all" obstacle when asking (or rather, DEMANDING, holy cow) for help or networking.
She's behaved unethically in the past, and this is absolutely the kind of thing that should come back around to bite someone. Don't give her the recommendation. This would only reflect poorly on you.
I really like oneaday's script for handling this. It is a firm no, but without burning bridges with a member of your cohort, who you may end up interacting with again in your career or at alumni meetups.
Or heck, you could just give her the contact information or let her know where to find it and wish her the best. Because if you get back in touch with your preceptor (and you should, especially if you had a good rapport), s/he will probably ask you about your classmate, and you can be diplomatically honest about why you can't recommend her.
But frankly, you don't have to do this if you're uncomfortable with it, and what's more, I think you're allowed to let pettiness play into your decision a little here if you want. If it helps to apply kindergarten logic here, she WAS petty first. Seriously, anyone who says directly to your face that it should have been THEM that got the thing that YOU worked hard for instead of graciously congratulating you on your success deserves the karmic retribution that comes with being openly boorish to a classmate and potential colleague.
posted by helloimjennsco at 6:05 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
She's behaved unethically in the past, and this is absolutely the kind of thing that should come back around to bite someone. Don't give her the recommendation. This would only reflect poorly on you.
I really like oneaday's script for handling this. It is a firm no, but without burning bridges with a member of your cohort, who you may end up interacting with again in your career or at alumni meetups.
Or heck, you could just give her the contact information or let her know where to find it and wish her the best. Because if you get back in touch with your preceptor (and you should, especially if you had a good rapport), s/he will probably ask you about your classmate, and you can be diplomatically honest about why you can't recommend her.
But frankly, you don't have to do this if you're uncomfortable with it, and what's more, I think you're allowed to let pettiness play into your decision a little here if you want. If it helps to apply kindergarten logic here, she WAS petty first. Seriously, anyone who says directly to your face that it should have been THEM that got the thing that YOU worked hard for instead of graciously congratulating you on your success deserves the karmic retribution that comes with being openly boorish to a classmate and potential colleague.
posted by helloimjennsco at 6:05 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Every day, I reach out to contacts for help and information, and some will reply and some will not. And as far as know, none of them think I'm a back-stabbing weasel.
In the words of the 20th century philosopher P.D.C. Collins, I'd give her "no reply at all."
And if she tries to corner you about it, persistently follows up, etc., I'd say something along the lines of how you don't feel you can give out the email address, an excellent excuse that happens to be truthful.
posted by randomkeystrike at 6:17 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
In the words of the 20th century philosopher P.D.C. Collins, I'd give her "no reply at all."
And if she tries to corner you about it, persistently follows up, etc., I'd say something along the lines of how you don't feel you can give out the email address, an excellent excuse that happens to be truthful.
posted by randomkeystrike at 6:17 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Personal feelings aside, it's bad form to share email addresses of people who are in positions of influence without their permission. Your preceptor gave you his/her email, they didn't give it out. It's not yours to share.
To do a professional introduction, you would first email your preceptor and say "hey, this person I know is a good candidate for x. May I share your contact info with her?" Then if they say yes, you email them both together in an introductory email.
So it's wrong of your peer to ask for the email address not just because she's a tool, but because that's not how it's done. And it's right of you to ask here first, because as you say, you're just getting started in the work world and don't know how these situations are handled. Your attitude will get you a lot farther with people in positions of influence than hers will.
As for your fellowship, nothing to be embarrassed about. You don't have the experience to take on that role, but your internship was successful and you have contacts from it. Don't avoid your preceptor. Reach out to them, not on your peer's behalf, but to keep that relationship alive.
posted by headnsouth at 6:17 AM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
To do a professional introduction, you would first email your preceptor and say "hey, this person I know is a good candidate for x. May I share your contact info with her?" Then if they say yes, you email them both together in an introductory email.
So it's wrong of your peer to ask for the email address not just because she's a tool, but because that's not how it's done. And it's right of you to ask here first, because as you say, you're just getting started in the work world and don't know how these situations are handled. Your attitude will get you a lot farther with people in positions of influence than hers will.
As for your fellowship, nothing to be embarrassed about. You don't have the experience to take on that role, but your internship was successful and you have contacts from it. Don't avoid your preceptor. Reach out to them, not on your peer's behalf, but to keep that relationship alive.
posted by headnsouth at 6:17 AM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Fairness" assumes that you have no information, or equal information, about everyone involved. That's not the case here. She's not someone you would hire, so you shouldn't recommend her, introduce her, or anything else that would reflect poorly on your professional judgement.
Your out is both true and gentle: "I haven't talked to my preceptor since I finished the internship, sorry! I bet you can find her current contact info on LinkedIn." (Meanwhile, get back in touch with the preceptor, since it sounds like she likes you and may be able to have feedback on other fellowships, or have access to other positions aside from fellowships.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:19 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Your out is both true and gentle: "I haven't talked to my preceptor since I finished the internship, sorry! I bet you can find her current contact info on LinkedIn." (Meanwhile, get back in touch with the preceptor, since it sounds like she likes you and may be able to have feedback on other fellowships, or have access to other positions aside from fellowships.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:19 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Most organizations really want to hire people that don't lie. You would be doing them a disservice by passing this person along uncritically. Further, as a taxpayer and the ultimate employer of this agency's members, you would be doing _me_ a disservice. So, please feel no guilt about not "being nice". You don't have to be nice at the expense of ethics. Please don't.
That said, people do deserve second chances, so maybe be open to talking with her someday.
posted by amtho at 6:21 AM on May 26, 2016
That said, people do deserve second chances, so maybe be open to talking with her someday.
posted by amtho at 6:21 AM on May 26, 2016
Just echoing everyone else above to say #1 don't recommend a person that you don't think will do a good job; and #2 get back in touch with your contact and update him/her on what is going on with your life and your plans. Keeping in touch is so vital for future opportunities.
I also agree that even if you thought your classmate was a good fit for the job, it could be poor form to just give her your preceptor's email address, without asking your preceptor's permission first.
posted by Caz721 at 6:38 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I also agree that even if you thought your classmate was a good fit for the job, it could be poor form to just give her your preceptor's email address, without asking your preceptor's permission first.
posted by Caz721 at 6:38 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Possibly off topic, but many people are commenting on your statement that you were under qualified for the fellowship and feel embarrassed about applying. You might want to read this (which applies whether your a man or a woman): link
posted by CMcG at 7:15 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by CMcG at 7:15 AM on May 26, 2016
Your professional reputation partially consists of the reputations and performance of the people you recommend. If you recommend this person or make the connection, and this person performs badly or continues to be evil, that will reflect on you.
At this stage in your career, that reflect is likely to only be slight. However it will reflect on you. Also, consider whether this person would do the same for you? (what I mean is, is there some other reason to have a professional relationship with this person) If not, there is literally no reason you should do this. It might hurt you, and is unlikely to help you.
posted by OrangeDisk at 7:27 AM on May 26, 2016
At this stage in your career, that reflect is likely to only be slight. However it will reflect on you. Also, consider whether this person would do the same for you? (what I mean is, is there some other reason to have a professional relationship with this person) If not, there is literally no reason you should do this. It might hurt you, and is unlikely to help you.
posted by OrangeDisk at 7:27 AM on May 26, 2016
This is your question. What is the proper thing to do here?
There is no proper thing. This sort of thing varies from circumstance to circumstance. You are under no obligation to do anything, and that is what you should do....nothing. If I were you I would not even reply to the email. If you're feeling generous, tell her to use the email the preceptor has on linkedin, but don't bother googling it yourself. So my reply would be this:
"I do not know what email she prefers currently but it's probably on linkedin."
I would not mention the recommendation, and if pressed, I would say this:
"Sorry but that is something I don't feel comfortable doing."
That is all. You do not owe her anything and that is precisely what she should get. Learn to trust your instincts.
I also don't know why she wants an email address from me, it's very easy to find on LinkedIn or from our program director.
It was just an excuse to text you to demand a recommendation.
Well yes..... maybe you are being petty. As in....it appears that you have nothing to lose or to gain by giving her the email and the recommendation; basically you do not want to help her because you don't want her to get the job that you applied for. You came right out and said this in your post. But eh....I think maybe some pettiness is ok in this case. If she really is a shit as you say, why help her? Your reputation and your judgement is on the line when you recommend someone for a job and they end up being a shit.
posted by the webmistress at 7:31 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is no proper thing. This sort of thing varies from circumstance to circumstance. You are under no obligation to do anything, and that is what you should do....nothing. If I were you I would not even reply to the email. If you're feeling generous, tell her to use the email the preceptor has on linkedin, but don't bother googling it yourself. So my reply would be this:
"I do not know what email she prefers currently but it's probably on linkedin."
I would not mention the recommendation, and if pressed, I would say this:
"Sorry but that is something I don't feel comfortable doing."
That is all. You do not owe her anything and that is precisely what she should get. Learn to trust your instincts.
I also don't know why she wants an email address from me, it's very easy to find on LinkedIn or from our program director.
It was just an excuse to text you to demand a recommendation.
Well yes..... maybe you are being petty. As in....it appears that you have nothing to lose or to gain by giving her the email and the recommendation; basically you do not want to help her because you don't want her to get the job that you applied for. You came right out and said this in your post. But eh....I think maybe some pettiness is ok in this case. If she really is a shit as you say, why help her? Your reputation and your judgement is on the line when you recommend someone for a job and they end up being a shit.
posted by the webmistress at 7:31 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I strongly recommend being absolutely bland in declining rather than saying anything negative. Learning to politely and generically turn down horrible requests is a valuable business skill. Angering her won't help you in any way but might come back to bite you down the road.
posted by Candleman at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
I know literally every person here has said this already but, let me add my voice. You are not being petty. What's important here at the beginning of your career is that you create and uphold your own professionalism. Giving a good recommendation to someone who sucks will make you look terrible.
Be generous with recommendations when you can honestly recommend someone. This is not the time for that generosity.
And let me echo the folks above who said there is no reason to be ashamed that your internship didn't turn into a permanent position. This is totally normal. You still got chosen for the internship and I suggest you try hard to swallow the awkwardness and maintain contact with your preceptor. At minimum, you will need that person as a reference in the future.
posted by latkes at 7:43 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Be generous with recommendations when you can honestly recommend someone. This is not the time for that generosity.
And let me echo the folks above who said there is no reason to be ashamed that your internship didn't turn into a permanent position. This is totally normal. You still got chosen for the internship and I suggest you try hard to swallow the awkwardness and maintain contact with your preceptor. At minimum, you will need that person as a reference in the future.
posted by latkes at 7:43 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm just here for the vote: Nope.
And I agree that you should be diplomatic and indirect about the reason why. I like oneaday's response.
posted by Vaike at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2016
And I agree that you should be diplomatic and indirect about the reason why. I like oneaday's response.
posted by Vaike at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2016
Follow up with your preceptor and try to build or maintain that relationship!
I don't think you have any kind of obligation to do any of this with your classmate. But, okay, definitely do not give a recommendation about your classmate whom you cannot, in good conscience, recommend.
You could give her your preceptor's email address, particularly if it is publicly available on LinkedIn. Just say "hey, it's good to hear from you, here is the email address."
posted by J. Wilson at 7:54 AM on May 26, 2016
I don't think you have any kind of obligation to do any of this with your classmate. But, okay, definitely do not give a recommendation about your classmate whom you cannot, in good conscience, recommend.
You could give her your preceptor's email address, particularly if it is publicly available on LinkedIn. Just say "hey, it's good to hear from you, here is the email address."
posted by J. Wilson at 7:54 AM on May 26, 2016
I meant to add, but do not say you will give a positive recommendation, just try to dodge that issue diplomatically. Don't make an enemy, but don't do anything that could reflect poorly on your judgment!
posted by J. Wilson at 7:55 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by J. Wilson at 7:55 AM on May 26, 2016
If it was me, not only would I not recommend her or give her my contact's details, but I would call my contact immediately both to reconnect/network (mention the job you applied for and didn't get in case they are not aware that you are still pursuing a role in their agency) and to tactfully intimate that your classmate may try to trade on your good name without your approval.
Because someone with the history you put in your OP would absolutely find their details elsewhere and call/email them with a breezy "Anonymous thinks I might be a good fit here."
posted by no1hatchling at 7:59 AM on May 26, 2016 [24 favorites]
Because someone with the history you put in your OP would absolutely find their details elsewhere and call/email them with a breezy "Anonymous thinks I might be a good fit here."
posted by no1hatchling at 7:59 AM on May 26, 2016 [24 favorites]
I would simply ignore her emails and texts.
posted by archimago at 8:27 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by archimago at 8:27 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Don't do it! You're not being petty. Your colleague needs to learn how to build professional relationships. You'd not help her at all by affirming her misguided notion that this behavior will work for her. Hopefully in this thread, you've also learned how important it is to only ever recommend people that you believe in! Your instincts are very good. I'm sorry to see you feel that your solid ground feels petty to you! Trust yourself, you are on the right track.
posted by pazazygeek at 8:30 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by pazazygeek at 8:30 AM on May 26, 2016
no1hatchling: "I would call my contact immediately both to reconnect/network (mention the job you applied for and didn't get in case they are not aware that you are still pursuing a role in their agency) and to tactfully intimate that your classmate may try to trade on your good name without your approval."
Yuuup. This is actually the perfect opportunity to contact your preceptor without embarrassment.
"Hi Preceptor, I just wanted to let you know that I didn't get the Position at Blah, and if you have any leads or advice about other positions or opportunities I'd love to hear about them. I also wanted to mention a classmate of mine, Person, who mentioned they were interested in getting in touch with you. I will give them your public email address if that's OK, but I just wanted to mention that I'm not sure Person will be a great fit at Blah based on their performance and attitude at University. Let me know if you have any other questions, and I hope to talk to you again soon!"
posted by Rock Steady at 10:22 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yuuup. This is actually the perfect opportunity to contact your preceptor without embarrassment.
"Hi Preceptor, I just wanted to let you know that I didn't get the Position at Blah, and if you have any leads or advice about other positions or opportunities I'd love to hear about them. I also wanted to mention a classmate of mine, Person, who mentioned they were interested in getting in touch with you. I will give them your public email address if that's OK, but I just wanted to mention that I'm not sure Person will be a great fit at Blah based on their performance and attitude at University. Let me know if you have any other questions, and I hope to talk to you again soon!"
posted by Rock Steady at 10:22 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
This isn't a matter of you merely disliking someone. She has demonstrated herself to be unethical and not a team player. It would reflect poorly on your professional reputation to recommend someone like that to any of your connections.
posted by spindrifter at 10:29 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by spindrifter at 10:29 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
You did not receive any text messages, so I do not know what you are talking about here!
(YES! Get in touch with your preceptor and tell her how you are!)
posted by jbenben at 10:43 AM on May 26, 2016
(YES! Get in touch with your preceptor and tell her how you are!)
posted by jbenben at 10:43 AM on May 26, 2016
OK, I think the echo chamber in here has made it clear already that you are under no obligation to do this. Learn from my mistake:
I once highly recommended someone for a job that I honestly did not know well, but I was young and enthusiastic and eager to do both parties a favor (that's how I saw it). To cut to the chase, the person was not a good fit and ended up being let go. Because I had so highly recommended her, they waited longer than usual to do it, and it did not end well. The manager clearly thought less of me as a result.
I still love to connect people and be helpful, but now if I don't know someone well, I make that very clear to the hiring manager, and I would never recommend someone I had negative experiences with. You will be tarred with the same brush.
posted by widdershins at 11:06 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I once highly recommended someone for a job that I honestly did not know well, but I was young and enthusiastic and eager to do both parties a favor (that's how I saw it). To cut to the chase, the person was not a good fit and ended up being let go. Because I had so highly recommended her, they waited longer than usual to do it, and it did not end well. The manager clearly thought less of me as a result.
I still love to connect people and be helpful, but now if I don't know someone well, I make that very clear to the hiring manager, and I would never recommend someone I had negative experiences with. You will be tarred with the same brush.
posted by widdershins at 11:06 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it would look quite unprofessional to reach out to your former mentor to disrecommend someone.
posted by latkes at 11:47 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 11:47 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
A simple, "I'm afraid I don't feel comfortable doing that," should suffice.
And of course you'd only ever have to deliver that line if she fronts you in person or calls you on the phone. Complete and total failure to respond in any way whatsoever to messages in any written format on this or related topics is its own special kind of eloquence.
posted by flabdablet at 12:31 PM on May 26, 2016
And of course you'd only ever have to deliver that line if she fronts you in person or calls you on the phone. Complete and total failure to respond in any way whatsoever to messages in any written format on this or related topics is its own special kind of eloquence.
posted by flabdablet at 12:31 PM on May 26, 2016
I have been a preceptor for an intern in a government job, so I feel I can give you some possibly-useful perspective.
If this agency is a federal government agency, and you got the automatic "not qualified" response from their system, absolutely do not feel bad about it. (Don't feel bad about not getting any particular job anyway, but especially not government automatic disqualification stuff.) I have known people applying for a job that they had been doing successfully for years and still get ranked "not qualified" because the system is absurd. Getting a government job is hard to do and often takes even excellent candidates years of trying. Your preceptor knows this and will not think worse of you.
I have not heard from my intern in a while, but I remember her fondly because she did a good job for us. I would absolutely be happy to provide a reference for her in the future if she got back in touch with me and asked me to. Other things that I have done for former interns/fellows include things like writing letters for grad school applications and providing professional advice/mentoring for them in subsequent jobs. These are all things that I consider my contribution to the future of the field and the professional development of the talented young people I have been able to help as they begin their careers. Even if you don't have an ask, your preceptor would probably be happy to hear a message from you catching her up on what's going on with you. If you learned something from her that has helped you, telling her about it and thanking her would be immensely appreciated.
Do not give a recommendation for a person you cannot honestly and knowingly recommend. It hurts your own hard-won reputation. But you are under no obligation to provide your classmate developmental feedback - you have plenty of noncommittal scripts in previous answers.
One more thing: fellowships are sometimes different, but many government jobs have a very strict hiring system and "putting in a good word" with someone actually can't help you much unless you are in the running for a position with some kind of special hiring authority. Otherwise, everyone has to go through the same standardized funnel.
posted by oblique red at 2:24 PM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
If this agency is a federal government agency, and you got the automatic "not qualified" response from their system, absolutely do not feel bad about it. (Don't feel bad about not getting any particular job anyway, but especially not government automatic disqualification stuff.) I have known people applying for a job that they had been doing successfully for years and still get ranked "not qualified" because the system is absurd. Getting a government job is hard to do and often takes even excellent candidates years of trying. Your preceptor knows this and will not think worse of you.
I have not heard from my intern in a while, but I remember her fondly because she did a good job for us. I would absolutely be happy to provide a reference for her in the future if she got back in touch with me and asked me to. Other things that I have done for former interns/fellows include things like writing letters for grad school applications and providing professional advice/mentoring for them in subsequent jobs. These are all things that I consider my contribution to the future of the field and the professional development of the talented young people I have been able to help as they begin their careers. Even if you don't have an ask, your preceptor would probably be happy to hear a message from you catching her up on what's going on with you. If you learned something from her that has helped you, telling her about it and thanking her would be immensely appreciated.
Do not give a recommendation for a person you cannot honestly and knowingly recommend. It hurts your own hard-won reputation. But you are under no obligation to provide your classmate developmental feedback - you have plenty of noncommittal scripts in previous answers.
One more thing: fellowships are sometimes different, but many government jobs have a very strict hiring system and "putting in a good word" with someone actually can't help you much unless you are in the running for a position with some kind of special hiring authority. Otherwise, everyone has to go through the same standardized funnel.
posted by oblique red at 2:24 PM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hi, I'm from academia and currently work for the U.S. government:
1) Ignore the emails from your colleague. She could reflect poorly on you. If you were my contact and you introduced me to someone else, I would assume that you were recommending them. If they turned out to be a bad penny, I would not be appreciative.
2) Email your gov contact and ask her if you could get together for coffee/phone call/what have you. Do it today. :)
posted by arnicae at 3:36 PM on May 26, 2016
1) Ignore the emails from your colleague. She could reflect poorly on you. If you were my contact and you introduced me to someone else, I would assume that you were recommending them. If they turned out to be a bad penny, I would not be appreciative.
2) Email your gov contact and ask her if you could get together for coffee/phone call/what have you. Do it today. :)
posted by arnicae at 3:36 PM on May 26, 2016
Nthing that if you can't actually recommend a contact that you provide that it will reflect on you. If it turns out that she's a bad penny for them, then this will erode their trust in you as you have implicitly provided some level of recommendation by providing the contact. So don't do things you're not comfortable doing. You don't owe this person anything, and just because it's a "nice" thing to do doesn't mean that it's something you must or even should do.
posted by Aleyn at 4:09 PM on May 26, 2016
posted by Aleyn at 4:09 PM on May 26, 2016
« Older Staying with NHS GP when homeless and moving... | Feeling the burn and it's not going away Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by xingcat at 4:18 AM on May 26, 2016 [52 favorites]