Please don't make me start at entry level
March 19, 2016 4:36 PM   Subscribe

I'm 25 years old and about to graduate with a MS in engineering. I am faced with the prospect of continuing my own venture or starting somewhere in industry. My venture is challenging and fulfilling, but not very promising, whereas the prospect of starting an entry level position makes me depressed and unmotivated. How can I find something to do where I will have ownership and opportunities for growth?

I am at a bit of a crossroads, with two general options.

Option 1: Work on a small medical device startup for about one more year.
Pros:
-I get full ownership of my project
-I work with people I like and respect
-I never do the same thing from day to day and am never bored
-There is a small possibility that if trials go well, we could be acquired for a tidy sum
Cons:
-This project is not going anywhere longterm
-I will not be making much money
-I will further develop breadth and not depth

Option 2: Go into industry and do...something
Pros:
-I (will) have an MS from the top school in my field and am already in reasonably high demand, i.e. can command a decent salary
-I will be able to learn the "right way" to do things, developing skill depth
Cons:
-The prospect of working for someone else makes me angry
-The prospect of doing the same thing everyday makes me sad
-I can't think of a single role in industry that makes me even remotely excited

I am currently CEO of my own tiny company, which has been fun but I recognize is not sustainable. The absolute best scenario is that my two partners and I have a hard, uphill battle to a small acquisition. However, after this experience, I cannot imagine really doing anything else. I need some career options that are at least comparably appealing to throwing away more years of my life on a venture that's going nowhere.

Things I am good at:
-oral communication (interviews, networking, strategic chatting)
-leading teams (running meetings, synthesizing different viewpoints, reaching informed conclusions, crafting a "vision")
-being really really organized
-I also have a large smattering of technical skills (writing, chemistry, microfluidics, various medical device design skills)

Thoughts? Advice? Possible career paths? Stories from people who were entrepreneurs then took industry positions and didn't cry themselves to sleep every night?
posted by AFittingTitle to Work & Money (22 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
It is clear to me that you'd like to do Option 1, so I say go for it. A year isn't that long, and you should have more experience and plenty of options still when it's over.

However, should you take Option 2, I'd hope you could still work on Option 1 on the side. A good Option 2 employer might even support you with more time and space to work on Option 1 occasionally. Perhaps there's an Option 2 job where you'd gain additional valuable skills to excel in your own business later on.

That said, I think it's fine to really prefer Option 1 but it seems you are closing yourself to a lot of good potential by assuming any and every Option 2 would make you miserable. At this point, I'd worry about it becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy even, and that'd be a bad way to start your career.

Do you have a mentor in the field who could help you develop an Option 3? Is there a way to do both Option 1 and 2 part-time so you get both the work you love and stability you desire? What have your professors and industry contacts been recommending to you?
posted by smorgasbord at 5:06 PM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Go with Option 1. At the end of the year, you'll have both an MS and medical startup experience and will be very employable in this vertical, which is filled with exactly the kinds of startups it sounds like you want to work with.

The big corporate world isn't going anywhere.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:13 PM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


It sounds like you need a salesperson who can sell what you are making. Do you have that person on board or find that person through the contacts / contracts you have?
posted by parmanparman at 5:23 PM on March 19, 2016


Can you afford to live on your income from option 1, including student loan payments? If so, it appears to be a clear winner.
posted by SMPA at 5:36 PM on March 19, 2016


Best answer: Honestly, if at 25 you're concerned about doing anything entry level, I think there are some critical issues you may face down the road. For starters, do you judge people at your age or older who take entry level positions? Do you understand that if you can't lead from below, you may never be able to lead from above?
My experience in life is that if you're shifting careers, prepare to take something on entry level, and if you're qualified and smart, you can rise quickly. But the people who feel they are entitled not to start at entry level (whether through nepotism or other means) rarely gain the respect and loyalty of those they manage, because they have no reason to appreciate the work they did.
That said, some people excel working for themselves - I work in a creative industry, full of introverts and freelancers who never want a boss. But if you're ever going to manage people or have employees, thinking working entry level or under someone will likely be the achilles heel that keeps you from ever going too far.
posted by Unsomnambulist at 6:31 PM on March 19, 2016 [56 favorites]


"Low chance of a low payoff" isn't the greatest formula for technology entrepreneurship, but people open bars and boutiques on those odds every day of the week.

I'd give yourself a clear definition of hopeless failure, and stick with it until then. You'll be young and recently-graduated enough to have no trouble getting your entry level job then if you need it.
posted by MattD at 6:53 PM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


crafting a "vision"

Really? Because it doesn't seem like you have much of a vision for your medical device company. What you've said about it does not inspire me to join you.

If the CEO is talking like that, I'd pass on the company and find another one.
posted by ctmf at 6:53 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The prospect of working for someone else makes me angry
-The prospect of doing the same thing everyday makes me sad


FWIW, I've been in the business world for 20 years since leaving academia, and I have never done the same thing every day. This is kind of oversold as a dire consequence, I think.

It seems as though you want to take Option 1, so you should do that. As noted above, a year is pretty much no time at all.

But I also want to say that I have never encountered someone who is good at leading a team who can't work within a team. I certainly wouldn't trust a leader who says that they feel angry at the idea of working for someone else. Even when you have your own company there are investors, boards, possibly shareholders-- and certainly there are customers at the very least. Maybe you were just being flip or trying to stack your deck for option 1, but I would spend some time and reflect on what makes you so angry.
posted by frumiousb at 7:01 PM on March 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


I have an M.Sc. in Chemical Engineering, 33 now but I started working in industry at 26. Accordingly, I know tons of engineers with both graduate degrees or straight up bachelors who are doing a variety of things - research, their own companies, working for firms, working in fabrication shops, etc.

Sorry but I think some tough love is in order. You're freakin' 25 years old. You're a baby engineer still, at the beginning of your career. There is no way you're not lacking some critical knowledge and skills that you need mentorship for, from a skilled senior mechanical engineer.

Get off your high horse about starting as a junior somewhere. Every job has repetitive aspects to it, tedious shit that makes the job dull at times. Frankly you have to pay your dues as a newbie junior and often do shit work, because you don't know enough to do any more all by yourself yet. More senior engineers will teach you the skills needed, skills that will strangely be applicable to a ton of other stuff. But I found that the work itself wasn't too monotonous while I was still working, and when I got the hang of something, they threw me new stuff pretty quick, so I was learning for quite a while. By 2 years I was an intermediate level because I'd gotten the full variety a number of times, and had moved on to self-sufficiency on that specific kind of work fairly fast, transitioned to a different technology and spent some more time learning the nuances of that too. Now again I'm on to something else entirely, same old base skills are still 100% useful. I't you work for a smaller company, odds are you'll be exposed to a wider variety of tasks more quickly. If you find the job boring after you've given it a solid try, then go find something different - mechanical engineering is pretty flexible.

Lots of engineers I know have side jobs doing their own engineering projects, running their own companies. If you want to take on a job as a full-time permanent employee, then you have to be cautious about the contract, some will lay claim to any and all IP you generate while in their employment, even if it's not job-related. If your side-project is not related to the job you get, there is less of an issue but you have to have their agreement in writing that your work for X is your own IP. You can also sign on as a contractor, which gives you more autonomy but fewer benefits, more self-retained risk.

After a few years, maybe you'll have the means and progress on product development to get your own company off the ground, and you can get out of working for someone else. But it takes a long time, and can be money-intensive. I have a close friend who's trying to get his biotech pilot plant company off the ground with a couple other highly intelligent engineers, he's worked professionally for a number of years and then downgraded to part-time while doing this and working on his Ph. D.... this company is going super slow. Good thing his wife's a doctor and pays the bills. You do not want to be doing the start-up as your only means of income, you will not be able to live very comfortably until it really gets rolling.
posted by lizbunny at 7:07 PM on March 19, 2016 [34 favorites]


Being an entrpreneur is a personality trait -- but it often requires sacrifice, which sometimes includes things like "working a day job to get enough money and/or experience to run a successful business". I know the dream is now being bought out by Google, but mostly people run what are currently called lifestyle businesses but are mostly just normal businesses where you earn enough to live on but will never make a billion dollars from tech investors.

It's not clear to me if you want to run a business or if you want to run a business that will be bought out very quickly.

If you want to run a business AND you can support yourself on this business, go for it. But don't discount what you can learn about successfully (or unsuccessfully) running a business or managing -- much less specific technical skills and experience -- by working for someone else.

And certainly figure out how to get past this "horrors, an entry-level job!" thing, because it will be obvious in an interview and it turns people off. Entry level jobs can give you all sorts of wonderful experience and let you learn lots of different things, sometimes things you never realised you would want to learn. Plus it will show you ways not to be disdainful of people who are, reasonably, just fine with starting out ni entry-level jobs and who do not have a burning desire to work for themselves.
posted by jeather at 7:12 PM on March 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


As someone who is older than you and working in an entry level position, I think you need to get over yourself a little. You might have a Masters degree, but you're not an expert in everything. Entry level jobs are a good place for learning the ropes, getting professional references, and showing that you can fit into that kind of environment. You're going to be working for a lot of your life, there's time to grow into other things.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 7:39 PM on March 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


There's something to be said for leaving work with a full wallet and not thinking about work again until the next day.

It's a lot nicer than working your butt off on a project making sub-mcdonald's wage, with a TODO list a mile long, with no guaranteed payoff and minimal likely payoff.

If the only thing you care about in life is medical devices, then, yes, option 1 is great. But if you'd also like to go on vacation, date people, have some fun... option 2 is the way to go.
posted by flimflam at 7:47 PM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I will be able to learn the "right way" to do things

Don't underestimate the value of this. Looking back at all the things I didn't know when I was straight out of grad school...
posted by salvia at 8:28 PM on March 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Best answer: In my experience as an engineer with a masters degree, for most jobs out there, the advanced degree makes you only slightly more attractive than someone just with a B.Sc. with the same amount of experience. They'll think you're smarter and will more likely give you interesting opportunities for projects and therefore advancement, over the long run... but there's no escaping the fact that certain basic skills are required, and as a new grad, you don't have those skills yet. So no, your masters degree doesn't really open any special doors that bypasses the entry-level engineering work.

The only possible exception is if you find a job that fits exactly with what your research project was during your graduate degree. Then they might make you a lead for a research & development group within some tech development company. But since you're already pursuing this through your own startup, there's a conflict there and you're better off not pursuing it, for your own IP protection.

There are other jobs out there that aren't the pure technical Mechanical Engineer jobs, which you could consider.

You could look at work as a Project Engineer, which involves the day-to-day management of projects in pretty much entirely non-technical capacity. Being the client representative, running meetings, tracking deliverables and progress, etc. Leads to full project management work eventually. If you're interested in gaining technical skills though, this job doesn't develop those, just conceptual stuff and project management.

There is also work in Loss Adjusting for industrial insurance, which is what I do now. I check out explosions, environmental spills, and other industrial accidents, and write reports on it, do supplemental investigations, travel to site to investigate, and monitor the progress of the project management to get the accident fixed/cleaned up. Uses all of my previous engineering experience, lots of technical info to learn brand-new, throws in a bunch of legalese and contract assessment. Always something entirely different. This is more something worth doing after you've gotten specialized experience in something, and maybe get hired on as a subject matter expert contractor.
posted by lizbunny at 8:50 PM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Work is not school. It is a new experience. You have to start at the beginning.

There are things about staying a company I would have never known if I hadn't worked for one.


Take a couple chances with entry level stugg continue working on your own thing. You will learn about each from the other.

If you did school (which is often the same thing every day) you can do work. In fact you might find work easier - I certainly do.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:21 PM on March 19, 2016


Honestly bud, you have to start at entry level because you are a graduate with very little/no real world experience. If you think working entry level at a big company won't teach you things, you are being pretty arrogant, dude. You, respectfully, have no idea what the working engineering world is like.

More generally, your feelings of dread and horror and working menial work for "the man" is super, super typical of graduates. And you know what? It's partly justified. Working for a big company as a tiny, junior cog is often boring compared to university. As a grad, i.e. the person on the lowest pay, you will get all the lowest value work kicked to you. This doesn't mean people don't respect you, it's what you're hired to do.

If you think you're too smart for your work, you may well be. But here's a secret: Almost everyone is too smart for their jobs. Compared to the intellectual playground of a good uni course; full time corporate work can be... bland. You'll learn stuff, of course; but you're not there to learn stuff. You're there to work.

Of course, unlike university, you'll get paid to work. Often quite well. You'll get sick pay, holidays, 401k or super or whatever, and that money can unlock a pretty amazing lifestyle. It's... staggering, if you've ever been broke. And you'll learn and grow.

I note you say "go into industry" like it's something that'll just happen. I'd urge some circumspection: there are a lot of grads like you, you may actually find when you start looking for a "Real" job, that you struggle to get one! And you will find full time corporate work hard, dude, you will. You will struggle and have challenges, I promise you. It's not gonna be easy street, if that's what you're worried about.

So, if everyone may be doing work below them, but no one is doing the best work they can do, if it's below them. There will be plenty of scope to push and develop and grow.

I dunno man, even if you want to be some iconoclast start-up engineer, the experience and contacts you will gain from say 5-7 years of corporate work will be invaluable to you. I think this might be a case of you don't know how much you don't actually know. It will do wonders for your project management skills, too.

Also, if you ever want to buy a place, start a family, etc etc. You'll want a real, stable job. Think about it, give it a try.

Best of luck,
posted by smoke at 11:25 PM on March 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


So much of life exists in the contemplation of routine tasks that were once a challenge, and in working in service to others. You are missing a big part of the human experience if you don't come to appreciate that. Understandably, people have developed an aversion to that since it's a power structure open to abuse. Spending time under a supportive mentor may change your view of this. Leave employers that don't treat you well.
posted by alusru at 8:37 AM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


What are your 10-20 year career goals? If you can meet those without acquiring entry-level skills or working in a position that under-appreciates your talents, you don't need the entry-level job. If not, might as well get it over with, so you're not 26 and in the same spot, if that is what's really bothering you. Or spend this year free and go after what might be your dream and spend what free time you might have (you'll have more in the entry level position, and more funds to give yourself room to think) really thinking through if your current dream is something you actually want, and your current assumptions are reasonable. If the thought of ever working for someone else makes you sad, why? If positions in your current industry are not exciting, why? If you investigate these feelings and find valid reasons, you'll need to approach working from a different angle than your current industry-or-failing-startup perspective.

Not the same field- positions in my industry can be exciting- but I started an entry-level engineering position at 29 with MSc in Engineering and years of useful work experience already. It crushes a little of my soul, but only the resilient part that I let it have. I feed that part by making it clear what kinds of projects and experience I am looking for at this job, and putting myself in the best position to get them- I need them to do what I want later. That's my balance, though.
posted by slanket wizard at 10:13 AM on March 20, 2016


It's clear that you are looking to convince yourself to take option 1. If you do go that route, I'd urge you to recruit a credible CEO, even if they only come on part time.

For one thing, they will be an important adviser - you mention not knowing the "right way" to do things, and in the med device world, best case scenario you waste another year grinding at the wrong goals, worst case scenario you kill people or ruin lives.

Another thing is that the right CEO will give you credibility and the connections to find the best fit industry job when you want to transition from your current venture. As someone who has looked at a lot of resumes, being the CSO of a company that has had meaningful successes is worth so much more that being the CEO of what might as well be a vanity project.
posted by fermezporte at 10:21 AM on March 20, 2016


-The prospect of working for someone else makes me angry
-The prospect of doing the same thing everyday makes me sad


I think you're being unreasonably harsh in your assessment of industry engineering.

Every job in the entire world involves working for someone else. You might have full ownership of your project right now, but you are working for a lot of people - the leaders of the startup, the investors; even people who own their own business are working for their clients, for the customers, for personal betterment, etc. Don't draw such a sharp line between how you really love the people you're working with in option 1 and you would hate working for somebody in option 2.

Any industry job, it's true you won't walk in and be handed full responsibility of every phase of a project, but any good engineer will have a lot of responsibilities, and the more you show your competence, the less oversight you'll be subject to. As someone who is trying desperately to hand off some of my responsibilities to MS level engineers and scientists, when I find one who knows what they're doing and can just take ownership of the whole task without my having to subdivide into lots of mini-tasks and check-ins, that person is pure gold. Of course that person is in demand, though, so has a fair amount of opportunity to pick and choose between projects, choose a direction, balance deadlines and what type of tasks they're doing today, and not be "in a rut" at all.

So if you're good at what you do, and work in a healthy culture, you will probably have a job that is pretty close to what you want.
posted by aimedwander at 10:41 AM on March 20, 2016


At 25 with a shiny new masters you ARE entry level as far as most places are concerned.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 11:30 AM on March 20, 2016


Even when you are the "Boss" or CEO or whatever you are actually working for the people "below" you in a lot of ways. A good boss's job is to make sure the people below get what they need and sometimes you have to make compromises to make that happen.
posted by Justin Case at 7:31 PM on March 20, 2016


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