[PARENTINGFILTER] How boisterous is OK?
March 10, 2016 7:48 AM Subscribe
So my sweet little four year old boy has grown into a five year old...and a whole load of rogueish behaviour has come with it. This boy is tantrumming now and then (autocorrect made that ruminating - I wish!) and he's disobedient and he's started being naughty to other, smaller children at his nursery.
My wife thinks this is all well within the realms of normal and that if we clamp down too hard on him we risk internalising the badness that's within all of us and not letting him "get it out" while he's little. In case you're worried she sounds like one of Ned Flanders's parents, she isn't suggesting we condone or allow him to tantrum and punch other children, just that we shouldn't regard it as an uncrossable line for which he needs to be sent to a borstal.
For my part I'm a bit sad. I did think that for a few more years I would have my sweet, good natured little boy who was interested in going on trips with me and who listened to what I had to say and would obey my requests for him to:
"Stop annoying your little sister" x 10
"Don't draw on your toys/the furniture"
"Stop shouting!"
"Stop running about - the neighbours are trying to remain sleep!"
I would love to hear some anecdotal stories from you guys on your little rascals. He still can show his really sweet and caring side but more often these days it's the demanding, grumpy, disobedient side. Is it just a phase? What do we need to do to make sure it IS a phase?
Relevant information: A year ago his sister entered his life, and it's safe to say it's shaken him and the whole family very badly. He still gets a LOT of love and attention, cuddles and stories, but it's obviously never been the same since.
THANK YOU
My wife thinks this is all well within the realms of normal and that if we clamp down too hard on him we risk internalising the badness that's within all of us and not letting him "get it out" while he's little. In case you're worried she sounds like one of Ned Flanders's parents, she isn't suggesting we condone or allow him to tantrum and punch other children, just that we shouldn't regard it as an uncrossable line for which he needs to be sent to a borstal.
For my part I'm a bit sad. I did think that for a few more years I would have my sweet, good natured little boy who was interested in going on trips with me and who listened to what I had to say and would obey my requests for him to:
"Stop annoying your little sister" x 10
"Don't draw on your toys/the furniture"
"Stop shouting!"
"Stop running about - the neighbours are trying to remain sleep!"
I would love to hear some anecdotal stories from you guys on your little rascals. He still can show his really sweet and caring side but more often these days it's the demanding, grumpy, disobedient side. Is it just a phase? What do we need to do to make sure it IS a phase?
Relevant information: A year ago his sister entered his life, and it's safe to say it's shaken him and the whole family very badly. He still gets a LOT of love and attention, cuddles and stories, but it's obviously never been the same since.
THANK YOU
Take a peek at the oldy-but-goody How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk. From the Amazon blurb:
"fresh insights and suggestions as well as the author’s time-tested methods to solve common problems and build foundations for lasting relationships, including innovative ways to:
· Cope with your child's negative feelings, such as frustration, anger, and disappointment
· Express your strong feelings without being hurtful
· Engage your child's willing cooperation
· Set firm limits and maintain goodwill
· Use alternatives to punishment that promote self-discipline
· Understand the difference between helpful and unhelpful praise
· Resolve family conflicts peacefully
posted by drlith at 8:06 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
"fresh insights and suggestions as well as the author’s time-tested methods to solve common problems and build foundations for lasting relationships, including innovative ways to:
· Cope with your child's negative feelings, such as frustration, anger, and disappointment
· Express your strong feelings without being hurtful
· Engage your child's willing cooperation
· Set firm limits and maintain goodwill
· Use alternatives to punishment that promote self-discipline
· Understand the difference between helpful and unhelpful praise
· Resolve family conflicts peacefully
posted by drlith at 8:06 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
+1 to the advice above. Giving a "do this" message instead of a "don't do this" message is probably one of the most useful bits of parenting advice I ever got.
posted by crocomancer at 8:08 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by crocomancer at 8:08 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Can you find the "yes"? Similar to stoneweaver's suggestion. He wants to draw on stuff. Find an appropriate place to draw. Or bring him outside with chalk and have him draw on the sidewalk and driveway. He is annoying his little sister - maybe he wants attention for himself or is frustrated with her inability to play the same speed as him. Find good ways he can play with his sister and show him? He wants to shout - bring him outside where it is OK to shout.
posted by jillithd at 8:09 AM on March 10, 2016
posted by jillithd at 8:09 AM on March 10, 2016
I have two boys, 10 and 7, who--even now--their most loving, patient adult friends describe as outrageous. The older one will point out very calmly that he's had to put up with another draw on my attention now for 7 years and this is simply unacceptable. That's when he's being cogent and channeling more than his 10 years. He occasionally still tantrums (which looks like trying to hit me, half-heartedly but he's big, to trying to run away, also half-heartedly). The younger is just an unpredictable ball of wax. They are great kids, loving, kind, thoughtful, and friendly. But their version of those things comes by way of a lot of noise, disrespect to property, smells, and trash talk.
Anyway, sanity, for me, lies in the mantra of "setting everyone up for success." At 4yo, that might look like letting go of drawing on toys; making sure there are totally ok places to draw (white board or black board paint? leftover cardboard boxes? anything out of the ordinary); bringing running outside immediately, even if it's inconvenient and just for 10 minutes, so he begins to get the correlation; etc. I also used to give "Adventure Challenges" to my kids at that age: "Ok, I want you to find three blue things in the house without me being able to tell where you are (quiet!) and I'll time you and we'll build a story about those things when you get back." This gave me 15 min to put a sandwich in my mouth, feed the little one, or not be yelling at the older for poking his brother, etc. It also gave the kid a way to feel super competent.
Also, other ways to be messy were always good. 30 minutes in the tub with a can of Barbasol is a lifesaver. Pouring water from one pot into another on the porch, ditto. Add food coloring another day. Give him a bunch of markers, get him down to his underwear, and tell him he can draw on himself. Outdoor time also seems key. I can't tell you how many bouts of shitty weather I found myself in with other parents at the park. Get a good handwarmer and thermos and buckle down for the short term.
posted by cocoagirl at 8:11 AM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Anyway, sanity, for me, lies in the mantra of "setting everyone up for success." At 4yo, that might look like letting go of drawing on toys; making sure there are totally ok places to draw (white board or black board paint? leftover cardboard boxes? anything out of the ordinary); bringing running outside immediately, even if it's inconvenient and just for 10 minutes, so he begins to get the correlation; etc. I also used to give "Adventure Challenges" to my kids at that age: "Ok, I want you to find three blue things in the house without me being able to tell where you are (quiet!) and I'll time you and we'll build a story about those things when you get back." This gave me 15 min to put a sandwich in my mouth, feed the little one, or not be yelling at the older for poking his brother, etc. It also
Also, other ways to be messy were always good. 30 minutes in the tub with a can of Barbasol is a lifesaver. Pouring water from one pot into another on the porch, ditto. Add food coloring another day. Give him a bunch of markers, get him down to his underwear, and tell him he can draw on himself. Outdoor time also seems key. I can't tell you how many bouts of shitty weather I found myself in with other parents at the park. Get a good handwarmer and thermos and buckle down for the short term.
posted by cocoagirl at 8:11 AM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Mom is right. If your reactions to him are negative, he internalizes that, which makes him feel bad, which causes him to act out more.
Start each moment fresh. Don't remind him of past mistakes (you can't have crayons today because you drew on the furniture yesterday). Allow him to make mistakes and give him gentle guidance when they happen so that he may learn and grow from them. Tearing him down is not what you want to do.
Greet him every morning and all day long with a great big smile on your face. You probably don't notice that you are still grumpy about something he did the day before but he does. He is reading it on your face.
Give him some wild time just with you, that is consistent. Commit to playing baseball with him every Thursday at 4:30 and do it, rain or shine, cold or flu.
Pick you battles. If you scold him for every little thing, he will tune you out. Save the strong voice for the serious issues that affect health and safety.
posted by myselfasme at 8:19 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Start each moment fresh. Don't remind him of past mistakes (you can't have crayons today because you drew on the furniture yesterday). Allow him to make mistakes and give him gentle guidance when they happen so that he may learn and grow from them. Tearing him down is not what you want to do.
Greet him every morning and all day long with a great big smile on your face. You probably don't notice that you are still grumpy about something he did the day before but he does. He is reading it on your face.
Give him some wild time just with you, that is consistent. Commit to playing baseball with him every Thursday at 4:30 and do it, rain or shine, cold or flu.
Pick you battles. If you scold him for every little thing, he will tune you out. Save the strong voice for the serious issues that affect health and safety.
posted by myselfasme at 8:19 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Kindergarten teacher here.
The book drlith references above is excellent and I'd actually begin first with The Power of Our Words, which offers direct and practical advice. A few suggestions:
-Start positive. "You're becoming a great artist! What are some things we can use to draw on that we can get to be yours?"
- Make him an agent in deciding on his own behavior. Instead of saying "don't do x", ask open ended questions on the nature of the behavior. At a time when he is not misbehaving (it's not really possible when he's in the state when he is), have a conversation: "I've noticed that sometimes your sister gets annoyed when ..." "What do you notice about those times?"
- Make it clear in brief and specific language what the behavior is. Instead of saying "Stop annoying your sister", which means little, try "your sister was upset when you took her doll." But understand that at this developmental stage, his brain will not process "don't do this because the neighbors are trying to sleep." He's got no idea where the neighbors are or what they're up to, and it's a big leap to try to get him to your reasons.
- Use envisioning language instead of punitive language: "How do you think you can take care of her in the future? What do you think you could do?" If he doesn't have ideas, have some at the ready, but with the option to pick: "could it be a, could it be b" etc. Try to have three.
- Listen. Ask him if he notices anything about how he treats smaller children and if he thinks there's anything that might bother them. Listen to his responses. Repeat them back to him: "It sounds like you're saying that..." "How does that make you feel?"
- Come back to envisioning language: "How do you think we could make you and the small kids both feel better? What do you think that would look like?"
- Come up with some agreements and goals that you both want to achieve. Know that there are times when you will have to say: "That is not what we agreed on with how to behave. You have to stop now." Don't be afraid of those moments, but build the foundation of trust first.
posted by transient at 8:48 AM on March 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
The book drlith references above is excellent and I'd actually begin first with The Power of Our Words, which offers direct and practical advice. A few suggestions:
-Start positive. "You're becoming a great artist! What are some things we can use to draw on that we can get to be yours?"
- Make him an agent in deciding on his own behavior. Instead of saying "don't do x", ask open ended questions on the nature of the behavior. At a time when he is not misbehaving (it's not really possible when he's in the state when he is), have a conversation: "I've noticed that sometimes your sister gets annoyed when ..." "What do you notice about those times?"
- Make it clear in brief and specific language what the behavior is. Instead of saying "Stop annoying your sister", which means little, try "your sister was upset when you took her doll." But understand that at this developmental stage, his brain will not process "don't do this because the neighbors are trying to sleep." He's got no idea where the neighbors are or what they're up to, and it's a big leap to try to get him to your reasons.
- Use envisioning language instead of punitive language: "How do you think you can take care of her in the future? What do you think you could do?" If he doesn't have ideas, have some at the ready, but with the option to pick: "could it be a, could it be b" etc. Try to have three.
- Listen. Ask him if he notices anything about how he treats smaller children and if he thinks there's anything that might bother them. Listen to his responses. Repeat them back to him: "It sounds like you're saying that..." "How does that make you feel?"
- Come back to envisioning language: "How do you think we could make you and the small kids both feel better? What do you think that would look like?"
- Come up with some agreements and goals that you both want to achieve. Know that there are times when you will have to say: "That is not what we agreed on with how to behave. You have to stop now." Don't be afraid of those moments, but build the foundation of trust first.
posted by transient at 8:48 AM on March 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
There is a switch that flips from 4 to 5. I don't know what it is, but it's a thing. My daughter went from a delightful, cheerful 4-year-old to a grumpy 5-year-old. My son is now 4 and he's a delight, but I know 5 is coming :/
Five is hard - it's transitioning from little kid to becoming a big kid. My daughter was terribly anxious about kindergarten for almost the entire year beforehand. She also became defiant in ways that she hadn't been before; she put up huge fights at bedtime, wouldn't do things when asked, etc. (unfortunately, she is almost 7 and this is still sort of an issue).
I would make sure he's getting enough sleep at night, and is getting enough one-on-one attention from both parents, together and separately. Make sure he's getting plenty of exercise and outdoor time (if possible depending on temps where you live). The previous posts about "getting to yes" are perfect. Remember that he's still basically all id and very much lives in the now. Punishment for crimes even earlier in the day aren't going to be effective. If there needs to be discipline, do it quickly and then move on from it. Name his emotions and help him figure out how to handle them - "You seem like you're having a hard time not bugging your sister. What's going on?"
Also, I'm not sure if little sister is getting into his stuff but my daughter is furious, and rightly so, when her brother gets into her stuff without asking. I would make sure that his toys, books etc are off-limits to the baby.
posted by sutel at 8:52 AM on March 10, 2016
Five is hard - it's transitioning from little kid to becoming a big kid. My daughter was terribly anxious about kindergarten for almost the entire year beforehand. She also became defiant in ways that she hadn't been before; she put up huge fights at bedtime, wouldn't do things when asked, etc. (unfortunately, she is almost 7 and this is still sort of an issue).
I would make sure he's getting enough sleep at night, and is getting enough one-on-one attention from both parents, together and separately. Make sure he's getting plenty of exercise and outdoor time (if possible depending on temps where you live). The previous posts about "getting to yes" are perfect. Remember that he's still basically all id and very much lives in the now. Punishment for crimes even earlier in the day aren't going to be effective. If there needs to be discipline, do it quickly and then move on from it. Name his emotions and help him figure out how to handle them - "You seem like you're having a hard time not bugging your sister. What's going on?"
Also, I'm not sure if little sister is getting into his stuff but my daughter is furious, and rightly so, when her brother gets into her stuff without asking. I would make sure that his toys, books etc are off-limits to the baby.
posted by sutel at 8:52 AM on March 10, 2016
To a large extent I agree that positives (e.g., "Draw on this,") are preferable--and definitely bringing up past mistakes is no good--but I'll go against the grain a bit, because there are times you'll need to say no (sure, taking a kid outside to run or yell is great, unless you've got 3 things on the stove or whatever).
Also, kids feel secure knowing that parents really do have control of all kinds of situations, and sometimes they (subconsciously) test that level of control by making a "situation" out of their own behavior. It's pretty intelligent, actually.
We used 1-2-3 Magic, and it really was like... well, magic. Within a week, we practically never had to count past "One" and everyone was genuinely happier. On occasions where there was a "time out" there was no discussion or lecture after. The consequence had happened and everyone moved on.
I do suspect this is a phase, if that's any comfort, and depending where you live, you might also be suffering the effects of winter weather. Longer, warmer days are just around the corner, so hang in there!
posted by whoiam at 9:00 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, kids feel secure knowing that parents really do have control of all kinds of situations, and sometimes they (subconsciously) test that level of control by making a "situation" out of their own behavior. It's pretty intelligent, actually.
We used 1-2-3 Magic, and it really was like... well, magic. Within a week, we practically never had to count past "One" and everyone was genuinely happier. On occasions where there was a "time out" there was no discussion or lecture after. The consequence had happened and everyone moved on.
I do suspect this is a phase, if that's any comfort, and depending where you live, you might also be suffering the effects of winter weather. Longer, warmer days are just around the corner, so hang in there!
posted by whoiam at 9:00 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hey, check out my last askme question! We can commiserate!
What I've noticed is my kid stops pulling her end of the rope if I drop mine. A couple of times I've had to interrupt exhorting her to get dressed/eat breakfast/whatever because of a more immediate problem with Little Sis, and she got so bored with being ignored that she got dressed after all!
So as much as possible, I ignore pushback. "You don't want to wear tights? Okay. You might get cold, though." And then leave the room.
It's harder for when you're trying to stop misbehaviour, but I want to give you permission to deflect, ignore or sidestep as much as you can to avoid getting locked into a battle of wills.
Because it's all about defying you. My kid runs after me all afternoon, trying to find topics on which to defy me. She is visibly disappointed if I don't react defied. If you're feeling under attack, you kind of are. I guess they need to lock horns or something.
If consequences, then natural consequences. Keeping dad waiting = dad goes ahead without you because dad has no more time.
And lastly, if something brings you closer, do that a lot. For us it is play fighting in bed. Hugs are not welcome, but fighting and giggling like maniacs is. So we do that a lot. Have as many happy moments as possible.
posted by Omnomnom at 4:51 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
What I've noticed is my kid stops pulling her end of the rope if I drop mine. A couple of times I've had to interrupt exhorting her to get dressed/eat breakfast/whatever because of a more immediate problem with Little Sis, and she got so bored with being ignored that she got dressed after all!
So as much as possible, I ignore pushback. "You don't want to wear tights? Okay. You might get cold, though." And then leave the room.
It's harder for when you're trying to stop misbehaviour, but I want to give you permission to deflect, ignore or sidestep as much as you can to avoid getting locked into a battle of wills.
Because it's all about defying you. My kid runs after me all afternoon, trying to find topics on which to defy me. She is visibly disappointed if I don't react defied. If you're feeling under attack, you kind of are. I guess they need to lock horns or something.
If consequences, then natural consequences. Keeping dad waiting = dad goes ahead without you because dad has no more time.
And lastly, if something brings you closer, do that a lot. For us it is play fighting in bed. Hugs are not welcome, but fighting and giggling like maniacs is. So we do that a lot. Have as many happy moments as possible.
posted by Omnomnom at 4:51 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
« Older Make my pilea great again (gardening question) | What the hell is going on with my scalp? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by k5.user at 7:58 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]