My boyfriend is not good-on-paper. Do such relationships ever work?
March 6, 2016 5:59 PM   Subscribe

I’m crazy about my boyfriend of 7 months (it hurts when we are apart!), but he has some traits to his personality that might make him difficult to live with long term. While lurking on AskMe for quite some time now, trying to find solutions to some of our problems, I see a lot of responses such as “dump him, you will find someone with all these good qualities, who also treats you right in other ways.” I’m sure there’s truth to that, but I’m 38 (he is 39) and last time I was in love I was 20. Love doesn’t come around all that often for me.

Here are the issues:
- He can’t stick to a time line of be on time for anything. He is always 1-2 hours late, and doesn’t plan his time well. A couple of times he canceled our date the day of. Which got me very upset, I explained to him how that made me feel, and he got better, no more cancelations, but mostly because we don’t really plan anything together lately – he is very busy at work the last 2 months. Sometimes he comes over spur of the moment, or I visit him. We live 1-2 h apart depending on traffic, so seeing each other often is a problem.
- He doesn’t save up for retirement and is a bit careless with money. But has no debt.
- His older brother handles his electrical and other such bills (they don’t live together) because otherwise there can be significant lapses. This is not my strongest point either, I can get careless too, but I’m on track now, and I guess I could make an effort and carry this load if we end up building a life together?
- He doesn’t cook at all, and considers it’s a woman’s job in marriage to cook for her man. My feministic side wants to say “hell no!” (and would have in the past) but now I think, for a guy with more traditional mind set, this is a typical view, and I love to cook, and he is always very complimentary and appreciative of whatever I make, so why not?
- When I’m upset about something, he tends to brush it off and either act like this is not really so important, let’s move on, or switch it to his own problems. Me: “You won’t believe how flooded the yard and barn are after all this rain!” Him: “Or, you should see all the rain that we got here! It’s disaster for the city!” instead of “Oh no, anything got damaged? Need any help?”
- When I’m in pain, instead of trying to comfort me, his response is more in terms of “Let’s not focus on it too much and it will go away.” This is the biggest issue for me, because then I feel unloved and abandoned by the closest person, but I have to say he treats his own pain the same way. But I’m one of those people who need their hair stroked.
- He can be aggressive towards strangers (verbally) when there’s some injustice going on, such as if someone cuts in line. This made travel with him very stressful. I’m a very relaxed easy going traveler; he is a high strung traveler. He often is a very aggressive driver, to the extreme. He has very little patience with people.
- He can be extremely stubborn and unyielding. If he made up his mind about something, there’s no convincing him. Me being used to getting what I want most of the time, I often find this stubbornness shocking, and so we clash sometimes. Hey, I’m stubborn too. But I’m willing to try and learn to be (a lot) more flexible for him, maybe this is a valuable lesson I finally need to learn in life.

Before you say OMG leave him! Please read the following!

- He is very affectionate when we are together – he holds my hand all the time (I love it and even need it), kisses and hugs me in public, and calls me “baby.” He is very sensual, his touch gives me goose bumps, because he is so in tune with me. He has this huge beautiful soul, and when he hugs me, it’s not just a hug, it’s like the universe itself is hugging me. Very genuine.
- He loves dogs, and loves outdoors and hiking, which are huge things for me. He is not into computer games, doesn’t watch TV, sports, and is not stuck on the Internet. He works very hard, and doesn’t have as much time for me as I would like, but when we are together, his attention is on me and he totally “gets me.” I love going for walks and have talks with him. We went tent camping once, and he was amazing – attentive and caring the whole time. He always reminds me to dress warm so that I don’t get sick, there’s a caring side to him.
- He worries about me when I’m away on trips. He checks on me and reminds me to make safe choices – this makes me feel loved and cared for.
- We have so much in common – from upbringing (not good, fairly abandoned ones) to values such as loyalty in friendship & honesty, to food choices, to simultaneous identical thoughts all the time, to music, to understanding of people and animals, to curiosity to explore the world. Some coincidences in our independent actions and thoughts are startling.
- When we are apart: I’ve always felt like I don’t get enough communication from him, which drove me nuts. Never texts and one call a day, usually late at night, after he gets off work. I told him I need more communication throughout the day, and he clearly makes an effort. He will now send me a “picture of the day” most days, text or call me in the morning and in the afternoon, even if for a short chat. There are still days when he is too busy or forgets to do this, but I can tell he is trying, that a good sign, right?
- He is very smart and is an amazing driver and can fix nearly anything. It’s important for me to have a guy to be able to do something better that me, for me to admire him, and these qualities hit the mark. Also, I know if shit hits the fan, I’d be safe with him.
- This one’s R rated (heads up): His easygoing, patient, and engaging attitude towards sex “cured” me of vaginismus which I had struggled with my entire adult life from the get go, and which became so bad before I met him that I thought I will not be capable of having sexual relationships ever again. I now actually want to have sex with him, and turns out have a nice healthy sex drive, whereas before I thought that I might be just not that sexual of a person (how could I be, if it was always painful).

One of the reasons I feel anxious about this is that I come to realize that I might want to have a child after all (if my body lets me at this age). Our contraception is sketchy, to say the least, so there is a chance of it happening. But I’m scared that even though I’m in love now and willing to overlook many things, once the real life starts, I might end up unsupported and will have a miserable life sticking around because of the child.

So I would like to hear from those of you in successful relationships with “difficult” people, people not good on paper. Those of you who could build relationships and overcome hang-ups, and be happy in the long run. How did you do it? What were the biggest obstacles? Is it even possible? Is there anyone out there in a satisfying relationship with a stubborn, self-centered person? I want to be hopeful.
posted by LakeDream to Human Relations (84 answers total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
- He can be aggressive towards strangers (verbally) when there’s some injustice going on, such as if someone cuts in line. This made travel with him very stressful. I’m a very relaxed easy going traveler; he is a high strung traveler. He often is a very aggressive driver, to the extreme. He has very little patience with people.

This is likely to turn on you, or your child, when you live together. This is a terrible life and this one thing alone is reason enough to break up with him. People who can't manage their anger are bad, bad news. Especially men, because he's probably bigger than you.
posted by desjardins at 6:05 PM on March 6, 2016 [62 favorites]


- He doesn’t cook at all, and considers it’s a woman’s job in marriage to cook for her man. My feministic side wants to say “hell no!” (and would have in the past) but now I think, for a guy with more traditional mind set, this is a typical view, and I love to cook, and he is always very complimentary and appreciative of whatever I make, so why not?

Because what happens when you're sick or recovering from surgery and he doesn't cook (or does a poor job of it)? Or, worse, expects you to do it?

- His older brother handles his electrical and other such bills (they don’t live together) because otherwise there can be significant lapses. This is not my strongest point either, I can get careless too, but I’m on track now, and I guess I could make an effort and carry this load if we end up building a life together?

"He cannot ensure that basic accounts don't wind up in heavily behind" is not a great idea given that eventually, most people move in together and combine finances.

His easygoing, patient, and engaging attitude towards sex “cured” me of vaginismus which I had struggled with my entire adult life from the get go

I too have had vaginismus. This does not earn him brownie points; "allowances for medical issues" is bottom-level stuff.

And while he is caring and affectionate (yay!), you can find someone who is caring and affectionate who is also capable of taking care of themselves and who can address your fears and pains in a way that makes you feel cared for, and who doesn't have "aggression" issues.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 6:07 PM on March 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm sorry, but he's a mess.

The thing about this relationship is you would be making some serious compromises in the long term to deal with/handle this "stubborn, self-centered person." And stubborn, self-centered people usually don't make compromises beyond the easy ones. So you could count on a life of making compromise after compromise for him -- not just when deciding to embark on a life together, but every single day for the rest of your life.

I just don't think he's the guy you should bet your life on, you know?
posted by mochapickle at 6:10 PM on March 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


The cons literally outweigh the pros in those two lists you provided.

You yourself describe the guy as 'stubborn' and 'self-centred' - is that really love? Is that what you really want?

And this is all at only 7 months in.

I think you can do a lot better.
posted by NatalieWood at 6:17 PM on March 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


Best answer: Are you familiar with attachment theory? It sounds to me like you may have a slightly anxious attachment style, and his may be avoidant. If true, that's a bad fit, and things will get worse not better.

Maybe take a look at this essay and see if it rings any bells. I am just spit-balling here, but it's probably worth you reading the essay to see what you think.
posted by Susan PG at 6:18 PM on March 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


This may be more general than you're looking for... but I agree with you, it's easy to say, "Dump him, someone better will come along!" And I think this is the correct answer when the problems people describe come from a fundamental lack of respect. But the things you're describing aren't necessarily deal-breakers (unless they are for you personally). I think the key thing is, how does he react when you bring up something that bothers you? Like, if you said to him, "Hey, it bothers me that you change the subject when I bring up something that I'm upset about. Sometimes I need to vent, and I'd like your sympathy and would appreciate it if you'd ask what you could do to help, instead of telling me it's not a big deal or switching to a problem that you have. Do you think you could do that?" Would he respond with defensiveness and anger, or would he have a conversation with you about it? Nobody's perfect, everybody has issues -- but I think the person you want to be in a relationship with is the one who's open to hearing what you have to say and who wants you to be happy.
posted by chickenmagazine at 6:18 PM on March 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


I really wanted to read this and tell you to give love a chance. But OMG DUMP HIM. DUMP HIM TODAY. RUN NOW. YOU MAY NOT SLEEP WITH HIM ONE MORE TIME. NONONONONO.

Between the anger and verbal outbursts, the wanting you to cook, and the being stubborn, I'm worried this guy is going to turn into a controlling/abusive nightmare.

Even if this doesn't happen, you can't negotiate with this person. This is what you absolutely need to have a relationship work. I REPEAT: RUN. (not marathon speed - full sprint).
posted by Kalmya at 6:20 PM on March 6, 2016 [17 favorites]


Not good on paper is one thing; this guy is not good in person, either. He has serious anger and control issues. You need to pay attention to these red flags. Do not have a baby with this man.
posted by something something at 6:23 PM on March 6, 2016 [28 favorites]


I agree with you that you will feel unsupported if you have a child/ren with him + I agree his anger will positively turn on you (and your kid/s) sooner or later + he's not an adult re:bills and other basic life skills.

RUN.
posted by jbenben at 6:26 PM on March 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's not mentally enmeshed with your life and feelings (as indicated by not empathizing with your pain,thinking about how flooding might affect you, etc.) My experience with boyfriends who don't get there within the first couple months is that they never do. Some people are cool with that kind of relationship... I personally am not. Are you? If not, think hard about whether things might get better.

(Also, IMO, the kind of guy who arbitrarily decides that it's women's jobs to cook is close minded and unthoughtful, especially if they were born after WWII. The cooking isn't the issue, the mindset is.)
posted by metasarah at 6:27 PM on March 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


He doesn’t cook at all, and considers it’s a woman’s job in marriage to cook for her man.

I will bet money, lots of money, that the more time you spend with him the more you find out that this isn't the only thing that he considers a woman's job. I bet he also thinks it's your job to comfort him, clean the house, raise children on your own, be subservient, not be too loud, keep up appearances at all times. The list goes on. It's literally impossible for someone to have this view on women and have it be ONLY about cooking.

The CONS in your list are all red flags. Some more than others (I mean, my husband sucks at paying bills on time, he has ADHD) but lord, no.

Do not date this person. Really. The pluses you mention are just a set of basic-bare minimum human niceties.
posted by Crystalinne at 6:28 PM on March 6, 2016 [49 favorites]


Oh, and for context -- I am someone who is now engaged to someone AskMe told me to dump. AskMe can jump to "dump him" too quickly! I get that.

There are two things here that are absolute dealbreakers for long-term, committed cohabitation for me--so careless with money that someone else has had to step in and pay their bills, and the "woman's job in marriage" stuff. Neither of those is going to be a good time if you ever move in together. I promise you. If he cannot get his stuff together, as an adult, right now, you taking control of finances will not actually help. He needs to be equally invested in his finances as you are for financial intermingling to work without huge fights.

Even if you set the budget, he needs to be enough of an adult to follow it... and his brother, who does not live with him, is setting up his bill payments (or paying his bills?). That is the opposite of investing in his own financial success.

For the "women's job" stuff: it's almost certainly not just about cooking and will affect, eventually, every part of your life together.

There are also two things that are dealbreakers for me in terms of "general relationship" stuff: being "aggressive" and different approaches to emotional pain. I'm separating these two our from the others insofar that they combine 'bad' with 'unlikely to be fixed'. A perpetually-late person can become punctual (although I would have dumped this fella long ago over this). A stubborn personality is not necessarily bad. But fundamental differences of approach over the 'negative' emotions is something that is very hard to get over.

But you're in the happy glowy part of a relationship. The part where you're supposed to be able to see no faults, and you already have a list of things that bug you as long as my arm. This list will not become cuter over time; it will simply get more annoying (or worse).

So. It is possible that you can have a candid conversation about all of your problems and that'll work out great. He's proven receptive to change on some of your issues already. However, that's a lot of issues that suggest to me that they are unlikely to change or are symptomatic of larger root issues (e.g. the cooking thing, the aggression).

So sure. Try to have one (many) conversation(s) about all of this if you want. But you've only been together 7 months and there's a bunch of red flags that tell me to cut your losses.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 6:36 PM on March 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


I would have said, maybe if you really want a child now, you could have one with him anyway, with the understanding that it is very likely you will end up being a single parent if things get worse between you. After all, in theory that's not much harder than your other likely option if you want a child at this point - sperm donation and single parenting anyway.

BUT most of the cons you list for this guy would make him an infuriating co-parent even if you were to break up. To the point that it would probably be easier to be a 100% single parent than to share part-time parenting with a guy who is impatient, bad with money, unable to stick to a schedule, and believes in traditional gender roles.

Also, some of the pros you list are things that many people find to disappear after a few years of a relationship (not always - but the likelihood is strong): goosebumps from his touch, amazing sex, incredibly focused personal attention, etc. That leaves you with similar values, a love for dogs and the outdoors, and that he's a good driver and handyman. Is that enough? It wouldn't be for me.
posted by lollusc at 6:51 PM on March 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Our contraception is sketchy, to say the least, so there is a chance of it happening.

I'm sorry for being a little blunt here, but the way you're phrasing this makes it clear that you're in some kind of deliberately passive denial, so it would be useless to be more subtle. What, exactly, do you think you're doing? Contraception is serious business. The two of you are in your late thirties and neither of you can summon the maturity to make a joint adult decision (or even an individual one, given that either of you could choose to use contraception) about whether to even consider having kids? You may be feeling ambivalent and as though this would be a great way to let life make a decision for you. It's not. Do not bring a child into the world as a way to sort out your feelings about a boyfriend you already recognize there are real concerns about. And what do you think he's thinking, given the realities of child support and the like? Is he planning to take off? Or is he thinking, as so many abusers do, that pregnancy is a great way to make a woman dependent and fragile?

I get the way it feels when finally the sex goes right after a long time of frustration and pain, and I get the fear of permanent loneliness, but if you're at your age and can't even yet take responsibility for your contraceptive decisions within a relationship, you need to take a huge step back. I'm worried you're just broadcasting vulnerability to the predators of the world, and this guy picked up on it. (Even if he's not a potential abuser, given his own failure to deal with the subject, he's not a good partner for anyone fertile.)
posted by praemunire at 7:01 PM on March 6, 2016 [107 favorites]


When I first started dating Husbunny, he'd been a bachelor for the last decade and wasn't very experienced in relationships. So, there were some issues with communication during disagreements, empathy and comforting, general "your feelings are not rational and therefore not valid", not involving me in any of his plan-making, and other kinds of "I've been a bachelor for a long time" stuff. Pretty sure if I posted any askmes about it at the time, I'd have gotten a resounding DTMFA. But he made a real effort to learn to be a better partner, and we learned to communicate much better over the years, a constant work in progress. We also entered into the relationship with an eye on the long term, marriage and kids, which encouraged us to give in to each other a little more, investing in each other. We've been together 6 years now, married for 3, and the relationship's improved by leaps and bounds since inception.
posted by lizbunny at 7:02 PM on March 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Our contraception is sketchy, to say the least, so there is a chance of it happening.

Remedying this situation should be your number one priority. On preview, what praemunire said.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:03 PM on March 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


Each one of the things you listed is "eughhh well could be worked around, could work out" but in conjunction they are a bit much. You can try to see if he'll take feedback and change on the important things but my gut is that he won't (there are... a lot of them). In the meantime, USE MORE RELIABLE CONTRACEPTION!
posted by stoneandstar at 7:08 PM on March 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


So if you moved in together tomorrow, what would that look like? You would do all the cooking, bill paying, be solely responsible for saving money, make sure he gets to where-ever on time and not hours late. That's just the practical parts you mentioned, I'm betting you would also do all the grocery shopping and cleaning, since that's usually also "women's work."

On the emotional side, you would be solely responsible for your self-care, especially when sick. And when your kid is sick. You would be faced with his impatience, aggressive driving, and lack of empathy on a daily basis. Add a kid to this mix, and it seems like a pretty miserable existence to me. And sex is something you have to really work at after the kids come along.

I would say that you can't enter into a long term relationship thinking that you can change someone's basic nature. But you do say you feel loved, and that he's open to change when you give voice to your needs. Maybe he would be willing to work on some of these issues. i would make sure I saw some real improvement before I considered a commitment to this man.

To me, he needs a mom, not a girlfriend.
posted by raisingsand at 7:09 PM on March 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yeah, sorry, why is your contraception so sketchy? Fix that now. Don't bring a child into this while you have doubts; that has almost never strengthened a relationship.
posted by chainsofreedom at 7:10 PM on March 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Do not "accidentally" have a kid with someone who categorizes whole worlds of responsibility as "women's work". Childcare might fall in that bucket and you do not want to have to face it alone.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:10 PM on March 6, 2016 [26 favorites]


The aggression and the "woman's work" mentality would both be dealbreakers for me. And if those weren't enough, dating an "extremely aggressive driver" would not be something I would be willing to do.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:23 PM on March 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Tightly-wound workaholic is not the world's worst package, but add that to can't remember to pay his bills and doesn't bother to save for retirement, it's just a mess.
posted by MattD at 7:28 PM on March 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Our contraception is sketchy, to say the least, so there is a chance of it happening.

Oh goodness I missed that. Yes. Fix this ASAP. And condoms are very effective when used correctly and used every time. If he complains about wearing a condom or something then use a female condom, diaphragm, contraceptive sponge, hormonal birth control, copper IUD. Something. You should not have children with this person.
posted by Crystalinne at 7:29 PM on March 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


an amazing driver

He often is a very aggressive driver, to the extreme

...those don't seem to line up?

I think my boyfriend and I both have become much better people to be in a relationship with over the course of our relationship. He and I both had some personality traits that an older and wiser person might consider dealbreakers. But, we met when we were teenagers, and we had a lot of growing up to do. I'm not sure someone who is 39 is likely to reform his personality for you.
posted by phoenixy at 7:47 PM on March 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


i'm only going to respond to one thing in your question :

He doesn’t cook at all, and considers it’s a woman’s job in marriage to cook for her man. My feministic side wants to say “hell no!” (and would have in the past) but now I think, for a guy with more traditional mind set, this is a typical view, and I love to cook, and he is always very complimentary and appreciative of whatever I make, so why not?

i am a housewife and cook at least 2 meals a day every day. i am a feminist. i would not do this for my husband if this is something he expected because it's women's work. this is a worrying viewpoint and shows that he has a list of behaviors and duties that he thinks people do because they're women - he's not approaching you as a person first in this, and i worry that this isn't the only thing he feels like this about. you don't have to accept being seen as an "other" in your own relationship.
posted by nadawi at 7:50 PM on March 6, 2016 [19 favorites]


Red flags just look like flags when you're wearing rose colored glasses.

Take off your glasses and reassess.
posted by juniperesque at 7:54 PM on March 6, 2016 [23 favorites]


I think you should think very very very hard about what kind of father he would be, particularly if you were to have a daughter with him. It doesn't sound like he would treat her the way you would want the person you love the most in the world (and the most vulnerable person you personally know) to be treated. Trust me, people who don't take good care of themselves do not take good care of children. And it's painful to witness when you love that child so so much.
posted by vignettist at 7:56 PM on March 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


If you decide to stay with him I would suggest that you not look at his negative traits as your responsibility to accept or tolerate. I think one can have a long marriage with someone who has worse qualities than your bf as long as they have their own sense of worth that isn't dependent on their partner's irritating or inconsiderate behavior. Clearly, dangerous bad habits are a deal breaker but annoyances, even ridiculously irritating behaviors don't have to sink the ship as long as you understand you will not change him and go find other things to do when he's being a dick. My parents have been married forever and are constantly at odds and annoyed at each other over all sorts of disrespectful behavior but they love each other to death and wouldn't have it any other way. I wouldn't want that kind of marriage for myself but it works for them, and lots of others, so I would say yes it is possible to make this work if you can detach A LOT.
posted by waving at 7:59 PM on March 6, 2016


- He can be aggressive towards strangers (verbally) when there’s some injustice going on, such as if someone cuts in line. This made travel with him very stressful. I’m a very relaxed easy going traveler; he is a high strung traveler. He often is a very aggressive driver, to the extreme. He has very little patience with people.
- He can be extremely stubborn and unyielding


This will be his attitude towards you eventually. Ask me how I know. It is no fun living life trying not to piss someone off.
posted by readery at 8:05 PM on March 6, 2016 [21 favorites]


He loves dogs, and loves outdoors and hiking, which are huge things for me.

This is not at all rare in someone. If it's his best quality, keep in mind there are plenty of others around who are like that.

- He worries about me when I’m away on trips. He checks on me and reminds me to make safe choices – this makes me feel loved and cared for.

This in isolation isn't a big deal, but when it is combined with his lack of concern for your when you are upset or in pain, it sounds a lot more like he is controlling rather than loving and caring.

Also echoing that the way he treats other people will eventually be the way he treats you.
posted by deanc at 8:10 PM on March 6, 2016 [20 favorites]


So the *best* things you can say about him that aren't sort of secretly red flags are that he almost pays attention to you as much as you'd like and is affectionate and the sex is good. That's cool. You've also only been together for 7 months. If the sex wasn't awesome at this point you would have left already, right?

If he wasn't as affectionate, attention-giving, and you guys had less sex, would you still want to be in a relationship with him? Because the reality is for most couples, especially after having a child, this is what falls off the most. If that's what is keeping you in this relationship, you really need to think about why else you would want to be with him if all that was taken away or greatly lessened.

The happiest couples that I know are either childless or they had a strong enough bond that was not solely expressed through sex, which made the process of child-rearing possible, because they saw themselves in a partnership of equals.

If that describes the two of you, go for it. If not, either accept that you are likely going to be stuck in a somewhat unsatisfying relationship (how unsatisfying depends entirely on your ability to accept the person in front of you and love them anyway) or DMFTA because you can do better. You can have a kid with him and still DTMFA if that's what you really want. I won't judge :)

If I were you I would cut and run, but YMMV.
posted by ananci at 8:17 PM on March 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Best answer: I think what everyone else isn't noticing here is that the OP hasn't been in love for 18 years. An entire child has grown up and gone to college in the time that she's last been crazy about someone. Most people don't get what that's like when you just plain can't find anyone to have feelings for a decade or two (except me and her). But her options are extremely few and far between if she throws this one to the curb and she wants a baby--which seems clear given the potential "oops" birth control behavior. This guy is her one hope of heaven in getting a baby and he's crazy about her and she probably can't ever find someone else again in time if she breaks up with him. She probably won't break up with him unless he's really really really awful. Hence this question.

This is to say that OP, I think you're probably gonna be too besotted in love to listen to people's reason on this. Hell, if I ever fell in love again I'd probably physically fucking sew myself to the dude, I'd be so clingy after forever and a lifetime of nothing.

Anyway, my take on this:

(a) He can't handle money for shit. If you live with or marry him, you will have to be in control of the money and give him an allowance and make sure saves for retirement. I personally would find this irritating, but I have known the occasional married lady who does this for husband and both of them are fine with it. Are you okay with totally running his money for him? If so, then okay, you can deal with that. That's not the worst of it.

(b) "Women's work." Again, some married ladies I've known are fine with that. I have a friend who does all the cooking and cleaning (her husband's only bothered to figure out how to order a pizza within the last year or so and they've been together 30+ years) and runs his money and they're fine with that. If you are okay with knowing that every dinner is on you, then fine, but sometimes he'd better be willing to spring for takeout or open a can of soup if you're sick. Not super awesome, but if you're okay with being in charge of all food and all money, then again, fine. At least he puts this out there at the start instead of you being surprised later, right?

(c) Lateness: eh, that's not the worst thing to have to cope with on this list.

(d) You need more attention and he tends to brush you off: not great, but this early on you could possibly work on that with him if he's willing to make some concessions, which it sounds like he is trying to do. Perhaps it's fixable.

(e) Super angry with strangers: that is worrisome. Some folks may not have that bleed over into their romantic relationships and some may not. Right now you've still got that "new car" smell, but what happens when you've been together a few years and he starts to not be on best behavior, or you marry him and he "relaxes" and starts the yelling? Does he get into yelling spats with his brother or other relatives? Do you know anything about his past relationships? I'd heavily investigate if he's been known to take out his shit on his loved ones in the past. Or if he's one of those guys who enjoys harassing strange women on the internet to take out his rage there. This is pretty much the "watch it" red flag for me here, so pay attention to this.

Again, you are really reminding me of my friend who does all the money and the cooking--except her husband also has quite the temper that he takes out on her. According to her, the relationship was pretty whirlwind and out of nowhere he proposed after a few months. The good behavior wasn't going on too much after that. Right now I'd advise you to not rush into pregnancy, living together or marriage for the time being. You aren't sure enough to bind yourself to him for life at this point.

(f) Stubborn: I dunno, does this sound fun to you to argue with the rest of of your life? Some people like arguing with brick walls. Wouldn't be my thing personally, but it's up to you as to whether or not you wanna take on that never ending battle.

(g) Do you want a baby so badly that you want to have it with this guy (thinking "it's my last chance" and I admit he may be between your age, lack of available love, and vadge issues), even if he's not the best investment in money and may be taking his temper out on the baby?

"But I’m scared that even though I’m in love now and willing to overlook many things, once the real life starts, I might end up unsupported and will have a miserable life sticking around because of the child."

Yeah, this could happen. (Though to be fair, that can happen with guys who don't have these issues too. Or any guy at all.) Right now you are blinded by hormones and finally getting to eat after 18 years of starvation. You are high as a kite right now. It is highly likely that you're not gonna be able to make a rational decision about this guy right now for shit until the high starts to wear off (maybe around a year and a half or two years seems to be the case). Likewise, if this guy turns out to be a guy with anger management issues towards women, it may take a while to find that out the hard way. And I honestly think right now you're not going to be able to think clearly as to whether or not you're willing to take all of this over being forever alone at this point in time. If you're not lucky in love, you'll put up with more than the people who know they can find someone else if they give this one up.

So my advice is: don't get pregnant, don't let him shack up with you, don't marry him right off the bat. I'd love to tell you to wait another year or year and a half to get your head clear, but OMG CLOCK IS TICKING probably won't allow that. But I'd say keep dating him and see if all of these traits start to make you batshit after awhile. At the very least, don't marry/shack up/get pregnant until you've known him a year. Give it some time to see if you can handle all of this when you're not high on hormones.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:36 PM on March 6, 2016 [27 favorites]


Literally every problem except #2 would be pathetic and awful if he was in his early 20s. And problems like #4 are worse when he's that age because he will never fucking change.

What i'm getting at, is that this guy basically flunked even awkward young people dating and never retook the class. Are you really going to sell yourself that short?
posted by emptythought at 8:42 PM on March 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


He doesn't sound very kind. I feel like kindness is #1 priority for someone to parent with.

I dunno, OP. I feel you very much on the "rarely fall in love" thing. I was like that and I was very afraid I wouldn't meet the right person. But this guy, I just don't know if raising a kid with him would be all that much better than doing it yourself. He sounds like a lot of work, and not a lot of emotional return. The sex being good is a plus for sure, but... meh. How about this: How does he treat his family? His friends? Is he loyal, does he care what happens to them?

(One of the most decent men I ever knew was a man who never cooked a day in his life. Wouldn't have crossed his mind. But he was a gentle soul and an outstanding provider, and his family's welfare was always his first priority. Is your welfare high on this guy's list? Not in the "he gets antsy when I'm out of his sight" way, which frankly is more controlling than thoughtful. But in the "what can I do to make her happier" way?)
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:45 PM on March 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


One day you will need this man to do something for you. Will he? Is he capable?
posted by Toddles at 8:50 PM on March 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


You can afford a sperm donor. Said sperm donor will probably be 20, fit, tall, cute, and went to Stanford or something. Quality sperm + quality mom who is emotionally mature and financially capable = better deal for kid overall than less high quality sperm + half-assed angry dad who will hurt kid and mom as much as he helps (+ aforementioned mom.)

Have your kid on your own, set up house, get support from your family of origin. Then date. Yes, it is harder to date with a young kid and harder as you get older. But you will hit prime divorced guy territory soon.
posted by quincunx at 8:58 PM on March 6, 2016 [24 favorites]


What with the money and the cooking and the aggressiveness thing, you're constantly going to feel like his mommy, taking care of him and keeping him out of trouble. He's going to get you into unnecessary drama, spend the money you were saving, but also expect you not to nag him.

Nothing kills romance like having to be someone's mommy. Sorry, this is a red flag parade.
posted by ctmf at 8:58 PM on March 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Also, for God's sake do not "accidentally on purpose" get pregnant if you haven't discussed it with him beforehand. He could very quickly turn violent. Seriously, a legit sperm donor is someone you pay to go away and not be a problem. An angry entitled "sperm donor" is actually far worse than some nice kind stranger with good sperm who needed $200 and was doing a good deed. Which one would you rather explain to your kid is their father? Yep.
posted by quincunx at 9:07 PM on March 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


If you're not lucky in love, you'll put up with more than the people who know they can find someone else if they give this one up.

And there is a whole subset of shitty dudes out there who will take advantage of that. This will actually not be her last chance to be in an exploitative relationship (assuming this is one), if she carries herself as someone who will settle for such. "If you're lonely, lower your standards" seems vaguely reasonable in theory, but the adult woman whose problem is really just that her standards are unreasonably high exists almost exclusively in the romantic comedy. Usually, "lowering your standards" means inviting vultures into your life.

Anyway, it's unquestionably hard to outwit your own heart, but when it comes to contraception, your head has to be in the game. No excuses.
posted by praemunire at 9:21 PM on March 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


He really sounds not good. The negatives are really bad, and the positives are like bare-minimum things you should get from any relationship - except, the affection comes off as especially needy, in fact. I think you've got too many red flags to plan to have a kid with him. You'd be better off having a kid on your own.
posted by Miko at 9:34 PM on March 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, dear heaven, why do you call your contraception "sketchy?" This is dangerous. Get a plan for birth control and follow it , stat! This is not a relationship to bring "Surprise" Baby into.
posted by Miko at 9:38 PM on March 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


One final point - sorry for multiposting, but thoughts arose as I reread. An "Aggressive driver" is not a safe person to drive childen, or pregnant women.
posted by Miko at 9:46 PM on March 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also, my mom had a very abusive second husband and he had a lot of these traits. Rude and confrontational to people in public, very aggressive driver, always checking in when she was gone, extremely irresponsible with money. Not saying he WILL be abusive, but I would keep an eye out for warning signs, and be especially wary about having a child with him before you really know him well.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:14 PM on March 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: I have to admit, I weep reading the responses (made it hard to red; I persevered). Susan PG's suggestion was spot on - reading about anxious and detached attachment types was painful - it was so so accurate. I have a lot of soul-searching to do. Why didn't anyone told me about this when I was in my 20s?

His relationship with family - pretty much none. His mother - a raging abusive alcoholic, plus a string of abusive "step-dad" figures. He doesn't speak to his half-sister, and his older brother is an adoptive brother, the only person he has family-like relationships with at this point. He is very close to his few close friends. They can do no wrong, and at times I feel I come second (third) to them. He also has a 12-years son who he doesn't see much - bad relationship with the mother, therefore he doesn't pay child support (or vice versa?) OK, I feel pretty stupid typing this. But I can't un-love him! I want to help him.
posted by LakeDream at 10:19 PM on March 6, 2016


He can't use a condom (we tried), and I can't be on the pill (side effects)
You could try a diaphragm, an IUD, low dose BCP (Loestrin, if you haven't tried that one yet). He can't use a condom? Is he allergic?

His lack of a relationship with his son, and that he doesn't pay child support, should be a red flag as to what could happen with you. Has he expressed sorrow at that situation and been trying to make it right with his son? Probably not, right?

I'm sorry. If you were my friend telling me this, I'd have to hold your hand and tell you to let this one go.
posted by vivzan at 10:50 PM on March 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


So he has a bad relationship with literally every woman in his life, starting with his mother, and adding in his sister and ex. He is only close to his MALE sibling and his very probably MALE friends. He does not pay child support for his child he doesn't care much for. This guy has like 9/10 of the most classic abuser warnings it's possible to have.

Of course you feel bad for him- he wants you to! Abusers always, always play and act the victim. They like being a victim and blaming others and external circumstance for their problems. They are angry and entitled because they feel the world owes them something. Instead of using their past pain and bad luck to empathize with and help others, they take it out on the world and on innocent well-meaning bystanders.
posted by quincunx at 11:06 PM on March 6, 2016 [33 favorites]


Even though it will cost me money that I don't have and be a huge personal hassle, I am moving out of my current living situation this coming Friday. Why, you ask? Well, because apparently I have been living with your boyfriend's clone for a year and I just can't handle it anymore. Our situations are eerily similar. The life-changing sex, constant affection, perfect hugs, brilliance, curiosity, talent, good times shared, even the attention to my warmth level... and yet all of this in a balancing act against questionable financial choices, erratic behavior, last-minute time crunches, lack of understanding of basic feminist values, stubbornness, inability to communicate constructively, fixation on "fairness" and "justice", aggressive driving, hatred of other people in public, etc. Yep, a clone of your guy, maybe with a few special snowflake details thrown in.

I too was taken in by the good things. I too wondered if I could change him. I too thought maybe I could live with the bad as long as I had the good. Here's where I made my fatal mistake: I moved in with him. Just as many in this thread predicted, the anger at others was eventually directed at me. He tried to control my behavior to match his own warped, black-and-white sense of right and wrong. I ended up cleaning up after him all of the time. I ended up consuming only media that he enjoyed. I ended up slowly losing parts of myself and feeling trapped. I never knew what would set him off and I dreaded being in public with him, in a car with him.

Do not move in with this person. He is on his best behavior right now if you can imagine that. If you move in or otherwise attach yourself to him then he will let his guard down and unleash more crazy. Do I need to scare you more? If I need to scare you to keep you from making the mistake I did, I will. A few anecdotes:

- I once had to pick him up from work to drive him home (he works as an entertainer) because he was falling-down wasted. I even picked up food on our way home because he wanted it. Someone ended up rear-ending me a half a mile from our place. No damage, not serious, but it was the first car accident I had ever been in. I was shaken up. I drove the car to the side of the road exchanged info, did all of the right stuff. He got out of the car and started yelling at the other driver. I told him to calm down, but he got into the driver's side and drunk-drove the car into a nearby driveway. When I came back and ordered him to the passenger side, he started yelling at me about being in other drivers' way, screwing it up, etc. I calmly said "your reaction isn't helping right now," and he got out and just walked away down the road. He didn't show up at our place until hours later. No apology, no acknowledgement. He basically refused to ever talk about the incident.

- He once freaked out in a hardware store because the cashier didn't put on the lighted number at their station. Therefore their station was not actually open and we had to stay in the long line that we were invited away from. He got shutdown-mad at me for wanting to go to the open register.

- He once paced someone in a merging lane because they cut him off. Like, we were in the same lane as another car until the last minute. I thought we were going to crash and die. He got mad at me for being upset.

- When I upset him at a party with a lighthearted joke, he went out to the car without telling me or anyone else where he was going, making everyone at the party believe that he had left me there.

- When talking about a future flower garden, he intensely insisted that I could only grow white flowers in it even though he doesn't garden and it would basically be my project. I thought he was joking. He wasn't.

- He repeatedly tried to violate my wishes not to have nude pictures taken of me. He brushed off all of my concerns and explanations. He also used a lubricant on me even after I told him it burned me and I didn't like it.

- I had to stop grocery shopping with him because he would push the cart into people who got in his way, or did other absurd things.

- Instead of talking like adults about any of the above, he would buy me unwanted presents as a way of pacifying me? Apologizing? He would then bring up the presents later if I had a problem with his behavior, "But I got you a [blank]." I felt increasingly guilty because of this.

In retrospect, it seems ridiculous that I tolerated all of this for so long. That's the thing about emotional abuse, even if it isn't consciously intended it leaves you questioning your own version of reality and your right to live without fear, guilt, and shame. If you move in with your boyfriend, these kinds of things will happen all of the time. If you have a child with him, this kind of erratic lifestyle will permanently shape their brain and it will become their "normal". When they grow up, they will seek out a partner to either control or be controlled by, and the cycle will repeat anew.

Don't get me wrong. I love the man I'm leaving. Love is a strange and painful thing. But I am worth more than this and so are you. If you really must continue to see him, do so only occasionally and on your own terms. Live in your own place. Get a highly effective method of birth control established and be willing to terminate if you become pregnant. The moment he does something that makes you uncomfortable, completely remove yourself from the situation. If you can't bring yourself to give up the good, at least refuse to tolerate the bad. My best is that you will eventually become annoyed enough to break it off entirely.

Maybe if I say all of this out loud here on Metafilter we will both believe it and get out.
posted by delicate_dahlias at 11:58 PM on March 6, 2016 [104 favorites]


I was extending the benefit of the doubt here, for a looooong time, but:

He also has a 12-years son who he doesn't see much

RED FLAG. If you want your kid to have a father in their life, that they have a rich, rewarding relationship.

I think, it's easier to gloss over this until you're a parent. I'm a parent of two, and you would have to lobotomise me to keep me away from my children. If God forbid my partner and I ever split up, I'd be looking at renting the house next door to see them - however painful the sight of my shattered once-glorious life would be. Child support would be a non-issue. I would take all the responsibility in the world for my kids and endure every kind of indignity you could visit upon me.

Shit, I get emotional just thinking about not seeing them all the time, and it makes me sad that I barely seem them because I work full time.

I would never never pair with someone who couldn't, or wouldn't be a parent.
posted by smoke at 12:02 AM on March 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Ahhh, I was trying to be gentle, because I really felt for that 18 year gap between loves. But this guy is a trainwreck. You know it. It's not your job to help him. You don't get to not pay child support just because you don't like your baby mama. That's not how it works.

You sound really needy, and possibly co-dependent. Please address this in therapy and ffs don't have a kid with this guy. He can't even take care of the one he's got.

I take back all my previous amelioration. Dump this guy and run. So he fixed your issues. Go have better sex with someone else who cares about you and doesn't parade around in his crazypants.
posted by ananci at 1:17 AM on March 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm sorry but he sounds terrible. Bad with money and lateness are annoying but forgivable, but he actually sounds mean. Like, yelling at strangers mean. Ignoring your concerns and his weird 1950s views about gender roles are just the icing on the cake. It is far, far better to be alone than to be in a relationship with someone who is not a nice person.
posted by emd3737 at 2:52 AM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the update because WTF:

He also has a 12-years son who he doesn't see much - bad relationship with the mother, therefore he doesn't pay child support (or vice versa?) ...I want to help him.

This is 100% inexcusable behavior. He could be David Beckham and George Clooney all rolled into one and have no imperfections other than being a deadbeat father, and that ALONE would be reason enough to dump him.

He HAS A CHILD he doesn't see or financially support. Morally and legally, this is the ugliest and shittiest thing a parent can do. It speaks to a vast lack of character. You don't get to walk away from raising your child and not financially support them.

I'm more than concerned that you didn't note this as a major con in your list. And that you're screwing around with contraception so you could very well be raising a child on your own.

If by some horrible accident you become pregnant I hope you realize that some day, he will also do this to you.

You think this may be a problematic guy now? Wait until you have his child and he disappears.

RUN.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:57 AM on March 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


They can do no wrong, and at times I feel I come second (third) to them. He also has a 12-years son who he doesn't see much - bad relationship with the mother, therefore he doesn't pay child support (or vice versa?)

And another huge red flag. Find someone new, who doesn't renege on his responsibilities to his children, who doesn't have aggression issues, who lives as a fully responsible adult. All of the "pros", other than sharing a similar background, are common (likes the outdoors) or bare-bones relationship stuff (being affectionate).

I promise you can find someone who makes you feel goosebumps and who has a personality that will have them be an equal, loving partner in your life. This fella is not set up to be your equal partner.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 3:46 AM on March 7, 2016


Imagine that you get pregnant, and you end up in threatened pre-term labour at 24 weeks, right on the edge of viability. You go into hospital on bedrest and on drugs which give you horrific headaches for days. You can't work, you can't go see friends or family, you can't shower. After fighting for that baby for five weeks, lying down while your muscles atrophy a surprising amount, you have the baby via c-section as it's safer for the baby. Now you have a very fragile preemie in the NICU. Daily there are medical crises and you may be looking at a child who has learning issues for life, who will come home after a few months in hospital and need people to be super-careful about germs, who will get scary scary suck with respiratory diseases for a few years, doesn't sleep the first few months, needs extra help learning to speak properly, write, read. Is still delightful, a willful two year old, a challenging and loud 14 year old...and a girl.

Meanwhile at 45 you develop arthritis, it's painful. At 50 you need back surgery and are laid up for 6 weeks.

Is this the partner you want at your side for all this? Will he pay the bills while you are dealing with a preemie in NICU, cook for your daughter when you are sick, and so on? Because sometimes this is how life goes.

Definitely slow down and use birth control. It doesn't seem positive to me.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:01 AM on March 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think what everyone else isn't noticing here is that the OP hasn't been in love for 18 years.

It seems worth pointing out that this framing is maybe part of the current relationship's spell, since an earlier comment from the OP suggests that until "a few years" ago she was still (unhappily) married (presumably to that 18-years-ago love?) and actively avoiding potential new partners.

Which is a whole lot different than trying and failing to find love for 18 years!

So rather than this guy being a once in a blue moon catch, I'd suggest it's possible that your strong feelings for him (and your desire to overlook such a long list of warning-signs) are partially a result of having locked down your own feelings for nearly 20 years.

(Also "it hurts when we are apart!" isn't a good thing!)
posted by nobody at 4:12 AM on March 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Sketchy" contraception situations usually mean "he doesn't like condoms and isn't responsible enough to use them despite that, and I'm too conflict-averse to insist that he does." (Corollary: "can't" usually means "doesn't want to" when a guy's talking about condoms.) Does this sound familiar? Because this is how every major disagreement between you will play out. Has he ever insisted on driving after one too many drinks? And have you gotten in the car with him despite knowing it was a terrible idea? Stuff like that.

You need a partner you can stand up to. Disagreements happen and no one person is always right, and you will be miserable if everything in the relationship always goes his way. Everything you say about him makes him sound like a terrible partner in this regard: he gets angry, he's stubborn, he dismisses your feelings, he tries to distract you from them. And it sounds like you might generally have trouble standing up to people in the best of times, which is something you will need to work on developing if there's any chance of you being happy in a relationship.

I'm concerned about the "he worries about me when I'm away on trips" thing, too. I don't think it's the positive trait you think it is. I'm a worrier, but I also know that the people I worry about are adults who make good decisions and the worry's kind of my thing to get over, know what I mean? Those check-ins and reminders can be a form of controlling disguised as an act of love: he's effectively saying "I don't trust you to make your own decisions" and "even though you're far away you still have to listen to me."

Absolutely none of this is going to get better. You cannot singlehandledly make this better, and he has zero motivation to make it better. This escalator only goes one way. I'm chagrined that you chose the "keep dating him" answer as best, because the longer you stay with him, the harder it will be for you to leave.

It's hard, and it will hurt. You can't turn your feelings off. I know how hard it is when it's the first time in a long time, or when it feels like your last chance. Pain and sadness and loneliness aren't signs that you shouldn't break up; they're part of almost all breakups. This guy is bad for you. Don't wait and see, and don't let yourself get oopsed into staying by failing to set boundaries now.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:15 AM on March 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


If you have a child with him and something, God forgive, happens to you, your child will solely be raised by this man. Is that okay with you?
posted by k8t at 4:56 AM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I want to help him.

He does not want your help. He is not interested in becoming a good person. Even if he were, that would be on him, not you.

I know this is hard, but think about leaving him now. Think about your memory of him being "he wasn't a perfect guy, but he gave me my sex drive back and I'll always be grateful for that." You've gotten something amazing out of this relationship! Go you! Now it's time to get out before he starts taking things from you. Before you learn not to ask for comfort from your partner, or to disagree with him, or to expect anything but the absolute bare minimum in terms of affection. You recognize all these red flags which means you are actually quite smart about relationships. Don't let him take that from you.
posted by chaiminda at 5:04 AM on March 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


Before you learn not to ask for comfort from your partner, or to disagree with him, or to expect anything but the absolute bare minimum in terms of affection. You recognize all these red flags which means you are actually quite smart about relationships. Don't let him take that from you.

Yes, this! The more time that goes by, the more entwined your lives and finances are (living together? a kid?) the harder it will be to split up if things get really bad. He will know this. Right now he has a few incentives to work with you because he (presumably) wants you to stay with him, but once you're locked in, what reason will he have to be a good partner? Obviously "being a good father" is not important to him, so don't count on that one. Really, I honestly think you are at a huge crossroad in your life here. Please choose wisely from a place of great self love and self care (and love and care for the future child you wish to have).
posted by WalkerWestridge at 5:34 AM on March 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sure, stay together, why not? But DO NOT move in, get married, and definitely do not have kids for the foreseeable future. Seven months is still pretty early in the relationship, the limerance is strong and he is motivated to be on his best behavior. But as everyone noted there are some major red flags here, and I really can't think of a worse thing to do than have a child with this man right now. To be honest I had him pegged as someone who would not pay child support even before you mentioned him having a son, and others have already noted that there may be major issues with him supporting you if you are sick or otherwise incapacitated.

Get your contraception right first and foremost.
posted by fox problems at 5:43 AM on March 7, 2016


I just learnt the hard way that the way someone treats everyone else will eventually be the way they treat you.

I stayed with someone for a very long time because it felt 'right' physically- we felt made for each other- and I couldn't believe that didn't mean something deeper.

I ignored a lot of red flags because of this chemical attraction, but eventually that started to fade. The sex began to fizzle out, and by that point I was in too deep with someone really wrong for me.

And as his desire for me faded, he began to treat me as cruelly and indifferently and selfishly as he did everyone else.

I don't regret the relationship, because the physical and emotional connection we shared was really intense and beautiful.

What I do regret was ignoring my instincts when he blatantly crossed the line (which for me was when I realised he was gaslighting me). I knew in my gut that was a shitty, dealbreaker, red flag, but I ignored it and kept on trying.

It ended about 8 months later in an awful, scarring way.

Had I trusted myself, I would have walked away less damaged.

I think part of my decision to ignore my instinct was the same biological clock you're facing. I felt like I wouldn't get another shot if I let this one go. But prolonging your relationship with someone who is wrong for you won't make them any less wrong for you. It will just make the pain of the break-up worse, and take another year, or two, or three away from you.
posted by Dwardles at 6:37 AM on March 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Given your update, this man does not seem to be in a spot to love anyone. You may be attracted to unavailable people. This may be why you've gone such a long time without being in a relationship. I recommend counseling to talk this through and learning to tolerate a supportive healthy relationship. This is not love (I'm as sure of that as one can possibly be through the internet) but get a good therapist. You can find the real deal with a bit of work.
posted by Kalmya at 7:07 AM on March 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Your question made me think "oh, yeah, I guess that's the good part of being 38-- you have the time to sort of ride out the relationship good and bad and see where it goes without worrying about your biological clock tick--oh, wait. Crap!" OMG, do not have kids with this guy! Thinking like this is going to make you rush in, sweep the difficult issues under the rug, and lock your life to this short-tempered, no-life-skills guy, and put yourself in an extremely vulnerable position. Having a kid at any age is easier with a good support system. He's not a good support system. It sounds like neither of you has a very good support system. And the reality is that risks of having medical issues (yours or the baby's) are higher now than with younger parents. Advanced maternal age is tied to risk of Down Syndrome. Advanced paternal age is tied to ASD risk. Imagine trying to raise a special needs child with a poor support system and no child support. This is not a responsible and loving way to treat your potential future children. Birth control, now.
posted by instamatic at 7:12 AM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think you might need some tools other than advice and reaction. First, I'll link (for like the 3rd time in as many weeks!) to some really important resources that helped me straighten my head about relationships: Codependent No More and Beyond Codependency by Melody Beattie. Even if something about the word "codependent" sounds cheesy or overwrought, look beyond that and go get these books. Most public libraries have them. Codependent No More in particular is like a workbook. It presents narratives and examples of how people like I was then, or like you, might behave in relationships, and then breaks down what's going on - your fears of abandonment, your sense that you can't assert yourself, your belief that someone else has the key to unlocking your self-worth and self-esteem. I think you might recognize yourself in at least some of the narratives. Then, after that, there are questions and journaling activities you can do to start reflecting on whether these ideas are acting in your own life, and what they're maybe doing to you that you really don't want. Don't just read the book, do the questions. You will probably get some great insight.

Second, therapy. For you. That is really the path to understanding why you fell into this, why it made you feel so good in certain ways, and why you are willing to look past such clear negatives to get what feels like love. It can help you get on a more solid foundation of a strong self-opinion and self-trust so that you can evaluate partners from a more level-headed place than whether they partially salve your emotional/physical wounds from a tough life history.

Don't worry about "I want to help him." That is textbook codependency. It's not your job. It's his job to get himself through life and establish positive relationships. He has not been successful at that to date. You are presenting him a pretty low barrier to entry and forgiving him a lot of things that others no longer put up with. That's why you're the exception, at the moment, but the pattern is already showing signs of repeating itself. You cannot help him get better. It is actually impossible. No one can do that for anyone else, because developing the relevant beliefs, skills, and perspectives is an entirely internal process. You can't help him "see," realize, grow in any way from outside. He is going to stay stuck in familiar patterns until he chooses to change. You can't make him choose that. Sometimes people like him pretend like they're choosing it, but they're really sort of acting out the play of "yes I can change, look at me changing, don't leave me, look at me changing, there's hope for me, don't leave me" Don't waste that valuable time. If he wanted to change, he would have changed already. He doesn't want it - didn't in the past, doesn't now. Despite your hopes.

There are really so many red flags. But it's possible to be objectively sorry for what happened in his life (and yours) and how that created challenges for you both, and at the same time, pull away the strings you have attached to him and the way his demonstrations make you feel, in order to preserve yourself from getting seriously hurt or miring yourself in a long dysfunctional relationship. Try showing at least as much compassion for yourself as for him, preferably more as you are the only person you will be with for your entire life, and bow out, to do some work on yourself, and hopefully to find a more appropriate partner who is more emotionally and mentally whole. Don't fall for any scarcity thinking: "I have to settle with this guy because I'm getting older and no one else could love me like this anyway." You'd be surprised how, when you become mentally and emotionally healthy, all your relationships and relationship prospects improve, from friend to family to romantic partner. The emotional world you live in now will open up to admit much broader possibilities. Good luck.
posted by Miko at 7:46 AM on March 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


He also has a 12-years son who he doesn't see much - bad relationship with the mother, therefore he doesn't pay child support (or vice versa?)

There is a heck of a story here that he is brushing aside. I can't think of any jerk in the world that wouldn't keep his child in his life. If she isn't looking for child support from him there is something sooo bad that she doesn't even want a hint of him in her or her son's life. Keep this in mind.
posted by readery at 8:00 AM on March 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


I would like to hear from those of you in successful relationships with “difficult” people...

Your boyfriend isn't just a difficult person. Your boyfriend is an asshole.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 9:30 AM on March 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


he's proven himself to be a deadbeat. this is a very objectionable thing and almost never has a story that redeems the deadbeat. he is not a good person.
posted by nadawi at 9:46 AM on March 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


He also has a 12-years son who he doesn't see much - bad relationship with the mother, therefore he doesn't pay child support (or vice versa?)

I'm sorry to pile on, but it makes me so fucking angry when I hear about people not paying child support. This is just inexcusable, particularly when you know what it's like to not have a parent, or to have a bad relationship with one.

He loves dogs but not his own kid? NOT OKAY.
posted by lyssabee at 9:47 AM on March 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Ooh, I missed that the first time around. Doesn't matter if you "like" your child's mother, you pay child support for the fucking child. Or else you contribute more to the child's life in other ways. Fuck that shit.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:56 AM on March 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


bad relationship with the mother, therefore he doesn't pay child support

There's really no 'therefore' that makes any kind of sense. The child support is for the kid. How he feels about the mother is irrelevant, legally and morally. Alimony, if he owes any, is for the mother and maybe he'd have some leg to stand on there (also unlikely). I have to imagine that if the money doesn't actually go to toward the kid he could take the mom to court.

My siblings and I are children of divorced parents. I know my parents didn't see eye to eye and had their share of fights (They divorced for a reason. Does your boyfriend think he's special?). I even know my dad wasn't always able to pay child support as often as he was supposed to. But he still paid when able and I'm pretty sure he kept paying even after we all turned 18 until he was fully caught up. If he felt it was unfair he never, ever let on (my parents were wise enough to keep that stuff away from us). Because he kept it up he was able to see his kids, even if he missed some payments occasionally.

Your boyfriend is a guy who considers it an 'injustice' if he gets cut in line. Imagine how he'd feel if his parents had divorced and his father didn't pay child support. If he doesn't get this it's because it's not really about injustice, it's about him being an asshole.
posted by Green With You at 9:57 AM on March 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


Our contraception is sketchy, to say the least, so there is a chance of it happening.

You say this as though you have no control over your contraception. I don't know why it's "sketchy", but this is a bigger issue than the electric bill getting paid. See a doc, buy the big box of condoms, fix whatever issue is making this "sketchy". If he refuses to cooperate with wearing condoms and that's what you need for primary BC or you forgot to take your pill or whatever, he is trying to force yourself to be a parent against your will. Act accordingly.

When I’m in pain, instead of trying to comfort me, his response is more in terms of “Let’s not focus on it too much and it will go away.”

Not that I've got personal experience or anything, but my understanding is that there is a lot in pregnancy, childbirth, and post-birth that involves a fair bit of pain.

One of the reasons I feel anxious about this is that I come to realize that I might want to have a child after all

Make an actual decision about whether you want to try for a child, don't just have your contraception be "sketchy".
posted by yohko at 11:02 AM on March 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Honestly playing roulette with the chance of having a baby with someone who doesn't pay child support is truly stacking the odds against yourself.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:50 AM on March 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


You know you can have a baby without this one particular fellow. Or any fellow, for that matter, especially if you're not even sure this one will stick around.

bad relationship with the mother, therefore he doesn't pay child support (or vice versa?)

Yes, vice versa. As in, he has a bad relationship with the mother because he doesn't pay child support.
posted by Room 641-A at 12:18 PM on March 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know what you should do? Take all your pros and ask yourself, would his own son say the same about his father?

This 12 year old boy, could he say of his dad:

* He is very affectionate when we are together
* He has this huge beautiful soul
* when we are together, his attention is on me and he totally “gets me.”
* He always reminds me to dress warm so that I don’t get sick
* He worries about me when I’m away on trips. He checks on me and reminds me to make safe choices
* We have so much in common
* he clearly makes an effort.
* I know if shit hits the fan, I’d be safe with him.


You get where I'm going with this. His son couldn't say this about his OWN father. What is there to love about this man?
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 12:40 PM on March 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


I would like to hear from those of you in successful relationships with “difficult” people...

I am in a successful relationship with a difficult (I won't even put it in quotes!) and not good on paper man. He is a high school graduate, I have a masters degree. He is deeply in love with horror/fantasy/scifi games, videos, movies that I couldn't give a fuck about. He has no interest in my career, and can only very vaguely describe what I do.

His social anxiety/laziness keeps him from working, and I / those two things because his social anxiety only began to keep him from working after I started supporting him.

He is a loner who is not comfortable talking feelings. He shouts sometimes. He isn't particularly interested in learning how to cook, although I have a broken arm, he says that he "can't" learn.*

But. He drives me everywhere I need to go (broken arm=can't drive) without complaint. He does 80% of the housework without fail. He walks neighbor's dog for a bit of cash, and he uses that money to buy ordered in pizza, video games that he wants, etc. He fixes boxed meals from TJ's while I can't cook. He is an excellent money manager and for the first time in my 44 years, I have a substantial savings account, entirely due to his budget skills.

In his previous relationship of eight years, he had two stepdaughters. He cared for them as if they were his own and when his partner moved away and told him not to speak to her children, he was devastated. He and I were together 6 months before he stopped crying in his sleep. He still has constant nightmares that the girls are in trouble and he can't help them. We are in the foster/adopt licensing process and he is ALL IN, excited to an entertaining level.

He loves me entirely and devotedly. When he says something that hurts me, through disagreement or misunderstanding, he processes it quickly and makes sure we are well resolved. He listens to me; I think he's not listening, but he will come back with a solution sometimes weeks after I've brought any kind of puzzle up.

He is entirely invested in improving his understanding of his, mine and our emotional life. He asks questions and brings things back up when he doesn't think he's gotten it right the first time. I mean he is GROWING.

That's the difference. The bad match on paper/difficulty stuff is still there, but is gradually being washed away by effort and love.

I think you are in serious danger of ending up with a child in an abusive relationship. I see no indication that this man wants to treat you well, and wants to learn what you need in order to feel loved. Someone upthread said it best, that he interacts with you (and all women, it appears) as a "woman", an "other" and not as a human. That is some vile, evil shit. Plus he has abandoned his child. Get out before he hooks you further in. Please.

*I sound so snobby. I'm not, I only say these 'on paper' things to make the point. In real life our educational difference, for instance has no impact at all.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 12:55 PM on March 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


He checks on me and reminds me to make safe choices

Particularly in concert with other things you list, this sounds like it might be kind of controlling. What happens when you make choices he doesn't agree with or if you don't agree with his suggestions? Does he support your right to make your own choices or does he make you feel bad for making choices he disagrees with?
posted by rmd1023 at 2:01 PM on March 7, 2016


I'm sorry to add to the pile-on, but one thing in particular has been bugging me for days:

He can be aggressive towards strangers (verbally) when there’s some injustice going on, such as if someone cuts in line.

OK, look . . . . if he was 22, and, as the saying goes, "young, dumb, and full of come", this would be . . . . understandable. Dumb, but understandable - 22-year-old dudes have energy to burn, no sense of proportion, no experience about when to pick their battles, no experience regulating their emotions.

He's thirty-nine. By the time you're 39 someone cutting in line gets an eye-roll, or a scoffing noise, or at most a rant in the car afterwards. Getting verbally aggressive with strangers over something this minor is a BIG red flag.

Also, does he gets aggressive when these sort of "injustices" happen to someone else entirely? Does he step in when he sees someone cut in line in front of a little old lady even when he's not in line to buy anything? Or does he just react when he gets cut in on? Because one of those is, maaaaaaybe, some kind of reaction to "injustice" - the other is just him having a disproportionally angry reaction to one of life's minor speed bumps. Which is not good.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:57 PM on March 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: I hear you guys....
posted by LakeDream at 7:44 PM on March 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Hugs if you want them. I know it's not easy.

I was thinking more about your question today. I'm not sure where you live, but I live out West and women who love dogs, the outdoors, and going hiking are perpetually in high demand. Everyone loves outdoorsy women here.
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 PM on March 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wow, there are so many responses. I'm new here and just testing the waters. I'm only 25 but...

Only you know how badly you want a child! Remember you are more than capable of raising it separately and being co-parents if it ever came down to that answer.

Lack of communication during the day..it's sweet that he tried to improve. I think people in their late 30s are less engaged with texting? Just based on what I've heard but I wouldn't know. If he genuinely tries to improve himself then that's a good sign.

Road rage, sometimes being selfish etc... those are all bad traits, but hey...I've got some of them. And you know what, they kind of remind me of my dad... my mom hated those things in him. They divorced due to other reasons but to this day she says she wishes she appreciated his positives because he's a great man and she's yet to meet someone to compare.

It all comes down to how you feel around him. My mom always said that. How do you feel? Loved, safe, supported, secured, honored, admired, respected, light and full of joy? If so. That's your answer.
posted by katemill at 11:23 AM on March 8, 2016


It all comes down to how you feel around him.

Well, I think that feelings such as those can be very unreliable in the case of people with past traumas and unresolved family and communication issues. There is so much more to a healthy life partnership than that.
posted by Miko at 12:52 PM on March 8, 2016 [10 favorites]


How do you feel? Loved, safe, supported, secured, honored, admired, respected, light and full of joy?

I'm pretty sure that a person who feels that way doesn't post on AskMe to ask if she's about to destroy her life by partnering up with a guy who won't pay child support for the son he already has.

OP, your emotional immune system caused you to make this post. You can tell that your thinking about this man is warped by your affection for him. You were hoping that the people here would tell you something other than the advice you already knew you needed.

An important litmus test for any romantic relationship is this: does he do things that are good/healthy for you even when they are hard/uncomfortable for him? Because it doesn’t sound like he ever does. It sounds like he tries to persuade you that your feelings are wrong and should change whenever your needs might inconvenience or upset him. He is already doing that to his ex, and to his son. That is not a club you want to join.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:02 PM on March 8, 2016 [10 favorites]


Isn't it convenient that traditional gender roles are really important when it makes his life easier (the woman should do the cooking), but apparently aren't such a big deal for things that would be difficult for him (aren't men traditionally supposed to be providers for their partner/children?)...
posted by Dwardles at 7:02 AM on March 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


"So I would like to hear from those of you in successful relationships with “difficult” people, people not good on paper." Everything you've described reminds me (sadly) of my own past, from convincing you to change for him, persuading you that your feelings are wrong, to the laziness and unwillingness to pull his own weight. Mine was affectionate and kind, we had similar sad pasts, yelled at strangers (clearly it was justified! he was passionate!) or threatened people - but only in the name of justice! I defended him when he told me I'd never find anyone better than him. I defended him when he told me it was my responsibility to cook, to clean, to have sex whenever he wanted it.

"my feministic side wants to say “hell no!” (and would have in the past) but now I think, for a guy with more traditional mind set" - then listen to yourself and say HELL NO. Listen to your gut. You have no responsibility to change who you are because of his "traditional mind set." You're here, asking this, because you have doubts. Because that inner intuition is screaming at you that something is wrong, and he's convinced you the fault lies with you (spoiler - it's him.)

A good, healthy relationship is one where both partners are supportive, support each other's feelings (YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO YOUR FEELINGS), and bring something of themselves to the relationship. Contributing money, emotional labor, chores, etc are important parts of being in a relationship. Dismissing emotions, dismissing the work involved in basic adult responsibilities is a huge sign this is a bad place to be.

Please listen to the many people who have phrased this better than I have - get out. Get out now. You are a valuable wonderful human being deserving of so much better. No matter how scary it may seem to be alone or without him, it's nothing compared to the suffering you're enduring now and will likely continue to get worse. You are in a very scary, bad, unbalanced relationship with someone who is trying to turn you into what he wants, for his own benefit.

You will find someone better - because anything is better than someone gaslighting you into doubting your own emotions and experiences so they don't have to deal with the hard parts of being an adult in a relationship. I know it's scary. I know it seems like this is your "last chance" but it's not. Life doesn't end at 40. Life doesn't end because you aren't in a relationship. You deserve so much better.
posted by veritas at 9:55 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


The positive things are basic human requirements.

The negative things are horrifying, and a ways down the path of abusive. Minimizing your feelings, deflecting, controlling, anger.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:14 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


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