SALE! 50% OFF! .... Tuition?
January 21, 2016 3:26 PM Subscribe
My daughter is headed to college in 2017. She's jumping into the big process of selecting/looking/applying, and I am jumping into finance/panic process. One thing I am seeing as we research schools: Many private schools, liberal arts and larger, are reported as being quite generous with grant aid. I need a reality check.
So... my questions are:
- For example, one of the best known liberal arts colleges in the west, with $48K tuition, is reported as meeting 100% of the need of those students that applied for aid, granting an average of $35,293.
- Another school, this one in Indiana, similar tuition, is reported as meeting 99% of the financial need of the students that applied (which is 59% of them). Average grant: $33,025.
- And one in Oregon, giving an average of $26,574 to 62% of the student body.
So... my questions are:
- Really?! What are the realities of this?
- Are schools really working with students to make it work, or are the figures deceiving?
- Are you a parent or student who has been through this?
- Is the aid question loaded on the front end by ability to pay, ie. students who can't pay are less likely to get in?
Is the aid question loaded on the front end by ability to pay, ie. students who can't pay are less likely to get in?
Look for "need blind admissions". If that's the case, they'll be proud of the fact.
Need-based aid is a tricky thing and uses school-specific measures of income versus cost of living, etc. It's more than likely that you'll disagree with the financial aid office about what your family "can" contribute towards your daughter's tuition and fees.
A few big-name universities have made headlines by making financial aid simpler than statistics: if the student's family's household income is X or less, they pay nothing in tuition, and sometimes room/board and fees. Stanford is the most recent (and others are listed toward the end of the article).
posted by supercres at 3:43 PM on January 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Look for "need blind admissions". If that's the case, they'll be proud of the fact.
Need-based aid is a tricky thing and uses school-specific measures of income versus cost of living, etc. It's more than likely that you'll disagree with the financial aid office about what your family "can" contribute towards your daughter's tuition and fees.
A few big-name universities have made headlines by making financial aid simpler than statistics: if the student's family's household income is X or less, they pay nothing in tuition, and sometimes room/board and fees. Stanford is the most recent (and others are listed toward the end of the article).
posted by supercres at 3:43 PM on January 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Couple of things going on here:
1 - Second tier, selective-but-not-highly, private schools are indeed handing out very generous "merit scholarships" to desirable applicants that raise their overall academic profile. Often these scholarship letters come the day after the acceptance letter. It's a very competitive market for schools that rely on undergraduate tuition (even discounted) that keep the doors open. My daughter has a very nice award from her LAC in Virginia - about $17k a year off a $50k/year bill. It doesn't take us down to in-state, but it's manageable and IMO worth it for her to have the small-school experience.
2 - "Meeting 100% of need" generally includes student loans, not just grants/merit scholarships.
College Confidential is a useful (and occasionally exasperating) source of all kinds of information for prospective college students and their parents.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 3:44 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
1 - Second tier, selective-but-not-highly, private schools are indeed handing out very generous "merit scholarships" to desirable applicants that raise their overall academic profile. Often these scholarship letters come the day after the acceptance letter. It's a very competitive market for schools that rely on undergraduate tuition (even discounted) that keep the doors open. My daughter has a very nice award from her LAC in Virginia - about $17k a year off a $50k/year bill. It doesn't take us down to in-state, but it's manageable and IMO worth it for her to have the small-school experience.
2 - "Meeting 100% of need" generally includes student loans, not just grants/merit scholarships.
College Confidential is a useful (and occasionally exasperating) source of all kinds of information for prospective college students and their parents.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 3:44 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, this is what a lot of colleges do. What happens is a few wealthy students pay full ride and thereby subsidize poorer students.
It is possible that having a low income will negatively affect the chance to get in. At some schools, they have what they call "need-blind" admission. However, not all schools will meet financial need with grant or loan packages. I know my alma mater, Grinnell (which has an exceptionally large endowment for a school its size) is considered notable for offering both need-blind admissions and meeting "100% of demonstrated financial need"--the other half of the equation that you want.
(And how they "meet" that need is of course a potentially tricksy question, as town of cats notes above.)
posted by col_pogo at 3:46 PM on January 21, 2016
It is possible that having a low income will negatively affect the chance to get in. At some schools, they have what they call "need-blind" admission. However, not all schools will meet financial need with grant or loan packages. I know my alma mater, Grinnell (which has an exceptionally large endowment for a school its size) is considered notable for offering both need-blind admissions and meeting "100% of demonstrated financial need"--the other half of the equation that you want.
(And how they "meet" that need is of course a potentially tricksy question, as town of cats notes above.)
posted by col_pogo at 3:46 PM on January 21, 2016
I've been helping my aunt with my cousin getting into college this year and can attest that schools are offering quite a lot of assistance. I do recommend early applications, because they seem to be offering money as an enticement for early decision. Also, the assistance seems to be in amounts that bring out of state tuition down to in-state level. Apply everywhere, don't let tuition keep your daughter from applying somewhere she likes. (And good luck! This is a very stressful process for parents and students. Hang in there.)
posted by AliceBlue at 3:49 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AliceBlue at 3:49 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
It really depends on the school. I lean towards applying broadly to schools you'd like to go to and see what the aid packages look like. Averages mean near nothing to you.
In general, the bigger the endowment, the more likely that you'll get a decent aid package.
Of course, a ton of this depends on your financial situation. Grant aid tends to flow to the neediest. In the middle, you might see more loans.
Need blind is more complicated than I wish to type into a phone, but don't rule out places due to this factor. Many generous schools admit the bulk of the class before looking at need and only turn need sensitive when the money is gone.
posted by advicepig at 3:50 PM on January 21, 2016
In general, the bigger the endowment, the more likely that you'll get a decent aid package.
Of course, a ton of this depends on your financial situation. Grant aid tends to flow to the neediest. In the middle, you might see more loans.
Need blind is more complicated than I wish to type into a phone, but don't rule out places due to this factor. Many generous schools admit the bulk of the class before looking at need and only turn need sensitive when the money is gone.
posted by advicepig at 3:50 PM on January 21, 2016
I actually got more out of my alma mater by telling them other schools had offered more. So you can negotiate if you are a desirable student.
posted by dame at 3:50 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by dame at 3:50 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
- Really?! What are the realities of this?
Yes, really. If you're low-income and you can get in, Harvard is going to be cheaper than almost any state school. Basically, schools want to charge everyone as much as they are willing/able to pay. At some schools almost all of their operating funds come from tuition; others get much more from endowments and donations than they do from tuition. But even tuition-dependent, lower-tier schools are use discounts to lure good students. How much students pay, how much the education costs, and how good the education is are all completely independent of each other.
- Are schools really working with students to make it work, or are the figures deceiving?
This is basically business as usual. Really elite colleges will even give lower-income students an allowance for theater tickets and stuff. But as town of cats says, 100% of your need will vary from school to school, and the number where the school considers your "need" met may still be more than you're willing to pay.
- Are you a parent or student who has been through this?
Nope. I only know about this from the "working at colleges" side, and I never worked in admissions or financial aid.
- Is the aid question loaded on the front end by ability to pay, ie. students who can't pay are less likely to get in?
It depends on the school. Some schools advertise that they do "need-blind" admissions.
Take a look at this discussion: On Full Financial Aid At Fancy Schools for more info about the way this works at the really elite level.
posted by mskyle at 3:51 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, really. If you're low-income and you can get in, Harvard is going to be cheaper than almost any state school. Basically, schools want to charge everyone as much as they are willing/able to pay. At some schools almost all of their operating funds come from tuition; others get much more from endowments and donations than they do from tuition. But even tuition-dependent, lower-tier schools are use discounts to lure good students. How much students pay, how much the education costs, and how good the education is are all completely independent of each other.
- Are schools really working with students to make it work, or are the figures deceiving?
This is basically business as usual. Really elite colleges will even give lower-income students an allowance for theater tickets and stuff. But as town of cats says, 100% of your need will vary from school to school, and the number where the school considers your "need" met may still be more than you're willing to pay.
- Are you a parent or student who has been through this?
Nope. I only know about this from the "working at colleges" side, and I never worked in admissions or financial aid.
- Is the aid question loaded on the front end by ability to pay, ie. students who can't pay are less likely to get in?
It depends on the school. Some schools advertise that they do "need-blind" admissions.
Take a look at this discussion: On Full Financial Aid At Fancy Schools for more info about the way this works at the really elite level.
posted by mskyle at 3:51 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
I went to a very fancy small liberal arts college (consistently ranked top 4 in the nation) and my parents only paid around 15k/year, whereas sticker price varied from 50-60k depending on how you compute it. I was very lucky, not only to get into such a school, but also because my college was among the few who promised to "meet full need" without including loans, so I also graduated debt-free.
This anecdote and most of my college info is 5 years old, but here is a list of colleges that promise to meet full need AND not include loans: some for all students, some for only low-income students, and some with caps on the amount of loans they will include in the financial aid package.
As advicepig said, I also wouldn't rule out colleges that aren't fully need blind but do promise to meet full need for the students they accept. Some of these schools--e.g. Carleton, Macalester, Reed (my list may be outdated)--can give quite good aid and are only need sensitive for the bottom ~5% of their admits.
The big caveat here is that you need to know whether colleges will consider you "middle-class" or "upper-middle-class," and you may think that you're middle-class while they disagree. I applied before the advent of Net Price Calculators so I'm not sure how accurate they are, especially if you have an unusual tax situation like small business deductions or major assets.
My advice would be to apply broadly and wait for acceptances + packages to come in.
Advanced tip: If your daughter gets her heart set on one specific school AND that school promises to meet aid without loans AND your NPC result looks reasonable, you can consider applying binding Early Decision. ED will give her an admissions advantage, but you give up the ability to compare aid packages. You CAN turn down an ED acceptance if the aid package is insufficient, in order to attend an in-state school, but comparable-level private schools will not accept her application in such a situation. Memail me for more info, as I also applied ED despite my parents' misgivings.
posted by serelliya at 3:57 PM on January 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
This anecdote and most of my college info is 5 years old, but here is a list of colleges that promise to meet full need AND not include loans: some for all students, some for only low-income students, and some with caps on the amount of loans they will include in the financial aid package.
As advicepig said, I also wouldn't rule out colleges that aren't fully need blind but do promise to meet full need for the students they accept. Some of these schools--e.g. Carleton, Macalester, Reed (my list may be outdated)--can give quite good aid and are only need sensitive for the bottom ~5% of their admits.
The big caveat here is that you need to know whether colleges will consider you "middle-class" or "upper-middle-class," and you may think that you're middle-class while they disagree. I applied before the advent of Net Price Calculators so I'm not sure how accurate they are, especially if you have an unusual tax situation like small business deductions or major assets.
My advice would be to apply broadly and wait for acceptances + packages to come in.
Advanced tip: If your daughter gets her heart set on one specific school AND that school promises to meet aid without loans AND your NPC result looks reasonable, you can consider applying binding Early Decision. ED will give her an admissions advantage, but you give up the ability to compare aid packages. You CAN turn down an ED acceptance if the aid package is insufficient, in order to attend an in-state school, but comparable-level private schools will not accept her application in such a situation. Memail me for more info, as I also applied ED despite my parents' misgivings.
posted by serelliya at 3:57 PM on January 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
There are consultants who can assist with the financial aid and applications process. They will be able to advise you on what your student can expect, which colleges to target, which colleges give loans vs. grants, which colleges will negotiate on aid packages, and so forth. (Financial aid consultants overlap somewhat with college counselors, but they have a lot more domain knowledge relevant to scholarships and aid specifically.)
They can also advise you on how to position your finances so you're coming at the FAFSA application from the best possible position. (Should add, this isn't anything unethical -- just making sure you don't have anything stupid that will be counted against you. For example, holding money in an account under your name for someone overseas will count against you, as the schools will assume those are your assets. There are a bunch more considerations like this that people often aren't aware of.)
They can also help you see future issues when comparing packages. For example, I had one "free ride" package that looked great initially -- full scholarship, grants only, no loans -- but if I had taken it, I'd have been screwed. Why? The package had a contingency for keeping your GPA above a B+, which, realistically, might not have been possible for me in the program I was targeting (a notoriously competitive one with a low curve). I actually did much better by taking a package with a small loan $ and lots of grants and no GPA contingency.
If you're uncertain and this is new territory for you, I would at least consider talking with a college financial aid consultant if there's a reputable one in your area. It costs money, but if it's anything like my/my parents experience, it will save you a lot more.
posted by pie ninja at 4:01 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
They can also advise you on how to position your finances so you're coming at the FAFSA application from the best possible position. (Should add, this isn't anything unethical -- just making sure you don't have anything stupid that will be counted against you. For example, holding money in an account under your name for someone overseas will count against you, as the schools will assume those are your assets. There are a bunch more considerations like this that people often aren't aware of.)
They can also help you see future issues when comparing packages. For example, I had one "free ride" package that looked great initially -- full scholarship, grants only, no loans -- but if I had taken it, I'd have been screwed. Why? The package had a contingency for keeping your GPA above a B+, which, realistically, might not have been possible for me in the program I was targeting (a notoriously competitive one with a low curve). I actually did much better by taking a package with a small loan $ and lots of grants and no GPA contingency.
If you're uncertain and this is new territory for you, I would at least consider talking with a college financial aid consultant if there's a reputable one in your area. It costs money, but if it's anything like my/my parents experience, it will save you a lot more.
posted by pie ninja at 4:01 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Agree with what's being said up thread. Just wanted to chime in and say if your daughter is at all interested in pricier schools that you think you can't afford - let her apply to a couple of those anyway and just see what they offer. My mom wouldn't even let me apply to any of those kinds of schools and to this day I'm angry about it because I probably could have gotten some aid (I watched friends of similar grades and financial background get aid packages to places like Harvard and Princeton and was pissed I didn't even get to try!!)
posted by FireFountain at 4:12 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by FireFountain at 4:12 PM on January 21, 2016
This is common--it is called the "high tuition/ high aid" model. It is a side effect of the competition in college rankings: some "need aid" is available based on financial circumstances, but the largest discounts are available as "merit aid," with "merit" often defined as GPA/standardized test scores above the college's median. A college's median SAT score figures highly into the rankings formula, so schools trying to climb the rankings will spend money to attract students with higher score.
posted by Emera Gratia at 4:14 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Emera Gratia at 4:14 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can also see amount paid per income quintile at college scorecard: https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?243744-Stanford-University, as well as debt and future earnings data. This might help tell what *you're* likely to pay, and not just averages.
posted by lorimt at 4:26 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by lorimt at 4:26 PM on January 21, 2016
Ok, clearly this question has been eating at me, because I'm back.
First, my biases, I went to one of those fancy liberal arts schools with large endowments. In fact, serelliya named it their list of other schools. I grew up on free lunches in public school and got great grades and amazing test scores. I was a prime candidate. Years later, I'd go back to my alma mater to work. I have dear friends in the admissions and financial aid departments as well as in the fundraising side of things. I'm pretty in tune with how that kind of school works right now.
One of the things that we spent a lot of time talking about on campus was the under matching problem. How many great students never applied to us because of the sticker price. How many didn't apply even apply to the flagship state school, but a more affordable school instead?
Admissions teams are really struggling to find ways to get the right applicants to fill a diverse class. The conversation in elite schools is how do we attract more students from the middle class? We're doing great with students that are confident they'll get aid and we're doing fine in higher income/wealth pools. Some schools are looking to the merit aid that Emera Gratia mentions. Others are trying to work on messaging and things like net price calculators.
Are these the things that other types of schools are talking about? Not as much. I now work for the flagship giant state school. Our financial pressures are far more like the pressures you see on government spending. In fact, declining state investments in higher ed are a major factor in cost increases in our state schools. The situation isn't likely to get much better any time soon.
All that said regardless of what caliber of student you have and what your financial situation is, it still boils down to if you are interested and the barrier is low, apply. The common app makes this easier than it used to be. Many schools are even making it free or super cheap to apply by common app. Fill out your FAFSA.
The other thing that I try to remind people of is that financial aid isn't a secret mystery sale. It's a progressive tool to push back against inequality. If you find you don't qualify for much, thank the fates for the fortune that you've had in life.
posted by advicepig at 4:40 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
First, my biases, I went to one of those fancy liberal arts schools with large endowments. In fact, serelliya named it their list of other schools. I grew up on free lunches in public school and got great grades and amazing test scores. I was a prime candidate. Years later, I'd go back to my alma mater to work. I have dear friends in the admissions and financial aid departments as well as in the fundraising side of things. I'm pretty in tune with how that kind of school works right now.
One of the things that we spent a lot of time talking about on campus was the under matching problem. How many great students never applied to us because of the sticker price. How many didn't apply even apply to the flagship state school, but a more affordable school instead?
Admissions teams are really struggling to find ways to get the right applicants to fill a diverse class. The conversation in elite schools is how do we attract more students from the middle class? We're doing great with students that are confident they'll get aid and we're doing fine in higher income/wealth pools. Some schools are looking to the merit aid that Emera Gratia mentions. Others are trying to work on messaging and things like net price calculators.
Are these the things that other types of schools are talking about? Not as much. I now work for the flagship giant state school. Our financial pressures are far more like the pressures you see on government spending. In fact, declining state investments in higher ed are a major factor in cost increases in our state schools. The situation isn't likely to get much better any time soon.
All that said regardless of what caliber of student you have and what your financial situation is, it still boils down to if you are interested and the barrier is low, apply. The common app makes this easier than it used to be. Many schools are even making it free or super cheap to apply by common app. Fill out your FAFSA.
The other thing that I try to remind people of is that financial aid isn't a secret mystery sale. It's a progressive tool to push back against inequality. If you find you don't qualify for much, thank the fates for the fortune that you've had in life.
posted by advicepig at 4:40 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Of course, a ton of this depends on your financial situation. Grant aid tends to flow to the neediest.That isn't necessarily true, and it's less true than it used to be. A lot of colleges see financial aid as a recruitment tool. Unfortunately, wealthier kids are more likely to make college decisions based on their financial aid package, basically because they understand the process better and are more aware of their options. Poor kids often apply to one college, which they're confident they can get into, and go there regardless of what kind of financial aid they are offered. So a lot of colleges, especially not-hugely-prestigious ones, are shifting their resources away from need-based financial aid and towards merit-based, because merit-based aid has a bigger impact on their recruitment efforts. This is terrible, terrible news for society, but it may be good news for relatively-high-achieving middle-class kids who want to attend not-totally-top-tier colleges and universities.
Some very-elite universities don't offer any merit aid at all. It's all need-based. That's how the Ivies operate. That means that they're super cheap if you have a high degree of demonstrated need, but a less-prestigious school might actually cost you less money if your family is pretty loaded.
I think that your daughter should apply broadly and wait to see her financial aid packages before she makes any decisions. However, that would require her to be willing to turn down an amazing school if she looks at her aid package and realizes she can't afford to go there. You should prepare her for that possibility and encourage her to find a bunch of schools that would make her happy, rather than getting her heart set on any particular one.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:46 PM on January 21, 2016
Take a look at how Stanford is doing financial aid for the next year. Definitely have your daughter apply everywhere she wants to go, and see what aid packages are offered if she gets accepted.
posted by MsMolly at 4:48 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MsMolly at 4:48 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, and that thing about need blind admissions I wasn't going to type on a phone.
The economics of need blind admissions are pretty complicated. If I could guarantee you that we could admit a class without looking at need and I could pay for them all, it stands to reason that I'm not really stressing my budget. Now that could mean one of two things, one is that I'm sitting on an ocean of money. The other is that the aid packages I'm awarding aren't as aggressive as they could be. Maybe there are a lot more loans. Maybe my definitions of demonstrated need are really skewed. I used to be part of that group that routinely pushed our trustees to go to need blind admissions, but having sat with staff and really engaged the issue, I believe the balanced approach we use lets us maximized how much we can give those who really do need it.
posted by advicepig at 4:49 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
The economics of need blind admissions are pretty complicated. If I could guarantee you that we could admit a class without looking at need and I could pay for them all, it stands to reason that I'm not really stressing my budget. Now that could mean one of two things, one is that I'm sitting on an ocean of money. The other is that the aid packages I'm awarding aren't as aggressive as they could be. Maybe there are a lot more loans. Maybe my definitions of demonstrated need are really skewed. I used to be part of that group that routinely pushed our trustees to go to need blind admissions, but having sat with staff and really engaged the issue, I believe the balanced approach we use lets us maximized how much we can give those who really do need it.
posted by advicepig at 4:49 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I say apply with enthusiasm to many schools, public and private, but accept with caution. It's true that there are many generous merit scholarships at private liberal arts colleges; however, even "full" scholarships rarely cover all the costs. Perhaps tuition is reduced by 3/4 but there's also room and board, textbooks (that can cost over $1K/year), ridiculous activity fees, and more. If you can afford to pay the difference and your daughter is motivated to attend the school, I say it's worth it. However, if it'd be a stretch and a public school much more affordable, I say go with the latter. I graduated from a top tier private liberal arts college and absolutely cherish my experience, intellectually and socially. I also was one of the rare few who graduated without any student debt; were I to have major student debt like the majority of US college students, I would feel very differently.
Also, if I can add to what advicepig said about potentially not qualifying for financial aid. As a high school teacher, I work with a number of students who are or were undocumented. These students, despite being outstanding and accomplished, are not allowed to receive any financial aid, no athletic scholarships, almost no merit scholarships, and often not even in-state tuition. It's a shame and a loss. What I'm trying to say here is to aim high and examine all the possibilities for your daughter. If you're a citizen, things are pretty good even if they're not ideal. She's got a great parent who is working hard to support her emotionally and financially, and also researching things now to maximize options. (Yea!)
I am sure that things will work out even if it's not necessarily her first choice: so many seniors are disappointed that they can't afford (or get into) their dream school but the vast majority end up loving where they do and learn a lot. Places like Harvard may cover 100% of tuition for high-need students but most people, regardless of need, are just not even going to get in. Many high schools have a list of local scholarships, many of which have great odds of receiving, and $500 here and $1000 here really do add up!
posted by smorgasbord at 4:51 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, if I can add to what advicepig said about potentially not qualifying for financial aid. As a high school teacher, I work with a number of students who are or were undocumented. These students, despite being outstanding and accomplished, are not allowed to receive any financial aid, no athletic scholarships, almost no merit scholarships, and often not even in-state tuition. It's a shame and a loss. What I'm trying to say here is to aim high and examine all the possibilities for your daughter. If you're a citizen, things are pretty good even if they're not ideal. She's got a great parent who is working hard to support her emotionally and financially, and also researching things now to maximize options. (Yea!)
I am sure that things will work out even if it's not necessarily her first choice: so many seniors are disappointed that they can't afford (or get into) their dream school but the vast majority end up loving where they do and learn a lot. Places like Harvard may cover 100% of tuition for high-need students but most people, regardless of need, are just not even going to get in. Many high schools have a list of local scholarships, many of which have great odds of receiving, and $500 here and $1000 here really do add up!
posted by smorgasbord at 4:51 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
ArbitraryAndCapricious, I don't disagree at all. I guess it shows my bias towards the very selective liberal arts schools. In the end, we're all saying the same thing, apply widely and see what comes back.
posted by advicepig at 4:52 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by advicepig at 4:52 PM on January 21, 2016
Tuition at fancy east coast liberal arts school was much cheaper for me than my big state university. Maybe it helps to be somewhat different than their typical applicant (for me, it was probably being from a very underrepresented region) and I applied early decision.
posted by pourtant at 4:55 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by pourtant at 4:55 PM on January 21, 2016
Now is the time to have two conversations with your daughter (not at her):
1. How much you can afford to spend applying to schools. This means admission fees (some admission fees are waived based on financial need: do you qualify?) and perhaps also travel to a few schools that she is admitted to, to help her make a final decision as to which to attend.
2. How much you will assist her with the cost of attending school--and therefore, how much she might be expected to make up in loans, etc. if her chosen school differs in the financial aid package.
Even though you don't know what schools will give your daughter for financial aid offers, you know these things, and you can start discussing them.
posted by Hypatia at 4:58 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
1. How much you can afford to spend applying to schools. This means admission fees (some admission fees are waived based on financial need: do you qualify?) and perhaps also travel to a few schools that she is admitted to, to help her make a final decision as to which to attend.
2. How much you will assist her with the cost of attending school--and therefore, how much she might be expected to make up in loans, etc. if her chosen school differs in the financial aid package.
Even though you don't know what schools will give your daughter for financial aid offers, you know these things, and you can start discussing them.
posted by Hypatia at 4:58 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I graduated from a fairly fancy private university with a huge endowment almost 10 years, ago, and I was not left with great feelings about how schools handle need-based aid. At the time, my parents made just enough money that I did not qualify for much aid at all, but not enough where they could comfortably pay what the schools wanted. One of the top 10 schools in the country wanted me to pay 41% of my parents' yearly income each year. They were perfectly willing to loan me most of it, so our actual family contribution was manageable, but I would have ended up with over $100k in debt (also, they would have increased my contribution based on the fact that I had a car that was less than, I believe, 7 years old). Now, some schools promise to limit the amount of debt students take on, but it is always important to see if need-based means that your cash contribution is manageable but your daughter is expected to take on the rest in loans.
I ended up going to a school that offered merit scholarships and getting my aid in that way. I was glad because it meant that my aid was a fixed amount. Some of my friends got great financial aid packages with few loans and lots of grants for their freshman years but then that ratio flipped in later years. The school figured that once students completed a year, there, they wouldn't transfer because of additional loans. While I was a student, they also did away with capping tuition increases at inflation because they said that applicants and their parents only pay attention to the cost of the first year, not the total cost of attending, so they were pretty crafty. I believe my illustrious alma mater now caps yearly students loans, but that's another reason to watch out for loan amounts.
posted by capsizing at 5:01 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I ended up going to a school that offered merit scholarships and getting my aid in that way. I was glad because it meant that my aid was a fixed amount. Some of my friends got great financial aid packages with few loans and lots of grants for their freshman years but then that ratio flipped in later years. The school figured that once students completed a year, there, they wouldn't transfer because of additional loans. While I was a student, they also did away with capping tuition increases at inflation because they said that applicants and their parents only pay attention to the cost of the first year, not the total cost of attending, so they were pretty crafty. I believe my illustrious alma mater now caps yearly students loans, but that's another reason to watch out for loan amounts.
posted by capsizing at 5:01 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I did two years at a state school, but not the flagship state school, and two years at one of the better private universities in our state. The cost differential was about $1000 thanks to scholarships and grants, and that was from 2001-2005.
posted by notjustthefish at 5:11 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by notjustthefish at 5:11 PM on January 21, 2016
I have a current college freshman so we just went through this and let me tell you how surprised we were about pretty much everything. It's so, so competitive right now. My kid was an honor student at a rigorous private school (with the help of a merit scholarship that paid almost all of his tuition). He had/has a depth of knowledge/experience with just a few extra-curriculars (just like the "experts" advise, by no design of ours, it's just what he was interested in) [computer science, music performance, music composition]. He was a member of an elite, audition-only youth orchestra for all four years of eligibility, and volunteered, joined clubs, etc. We are solidly middle class.
He got a 35 on his first go on the ACT. His SAT scores were equally impressive (can't remember numbers now). His applications were great, and that's not just the parent part of me talking. His counsellors and teachers all agreed. He was not only rejected by his top 5 choices, he didn't even get enough of a scholarship at our state school to cover room and board. We were told over and over and over that an ACT score like his would get him nearly a full ride at our state school. Nope.
Two schools offered him substantial merit scholarships. But they're private schools, so the base tuition is super high. He's attending his 6th choice school and actually, it's a perfect fit for him, much more so than we thought it would be before he started school there. He's very happy there and it's all working out. We've cut back our budget to the bare bones and it's okay. But I don't know what we're going to do if our daughter doesn't get scholarships. The FAFSA says we can afford xxx amount but we just can't see how that's possible.
My advice for your daughter is to apply to the schools that feel like a good fit for her. Let the offers come in, fill out the FAFSA, and discuss the pros and cons. I'm happy to discuss the process and numbers if you want to MeMail me. Our eyes were opened, that's for sure.
posted by cooker girl at 5:18 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
He got a 35 on his first go on the ACT. His SAT scores were equally impressive (can't remember numbers now). His applications were great, and that's not just the parent part of me talking. His counsellors and teachers all agreed. He was not only rejected by his top 5 choices, he didn't even get enough of a scholarship at our state school to cover room and board. We were told over and over and over that an ACT score like his would get him nearly a full ride at our state school. Nope.
Two schools offered him substantial merit scholarships. But they're private schools, so the base tuition is super high. He's attending his 6th choice school and actually, it's a perfect fit for him, much more so than we thought it would be before he started school there. He's very happy there and it's all working out. We've cut back our budget to the bare bones and it's okay. But I don't know what we're going to do if our daughter doesn't get scholarships. The FAFSA says we can afford xxx amount but we just can't see how that's possible.
My advice for your daughter is to apply to the schools that feel like a good fit for her. Let the offers come in, fill out the FAFSA, and discuss the pros and cons. I'm happy to discuss the process and numbers if you want to MeMail me. Our eyes were opened, that's for sure.
posted by cooker girl at 5:18 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
When you're evaluating schools, look at average time to graduation as well as the reported tuition cost per year. If your child & all of her friends take an extra year so they can work a part-time job or finish a second major, that will cancel out apparent tuition savings.
posted by yarntheory at 5:18 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by yarntheory at 5:18 PM on January 21, 2016
, it would mean the difference between applying to these type schools, or only applying to "in-state" cost schools.
It is to your advantage to apply to all of the schools she's interested in and apply for financial aid and then compare the "actual costs" between them and decide which choice is most worthwhile.
Many top private universities are very, very wealthy (sort by endowment size) and will offer generous financial aid to those in the middle class.
Once you get down past the list of rich universities, then the less wealthy and more devious schools start doing various bait-and-switch maneuvers. Obviously, you have to watch out for those.
posted by deanc at 7:27 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
It is to your advantage to apply to all of the schools she's interested in and apply for financial aid and then compare the "actual costs" between them and decide which choice is most worthwhile.
Many top private universities are very, very wealthy (sort by endowment size) and will offer generous financial aid to those in the middle class.
Once you get down past the list of rich universities, then the less wealthy and more devious schools start doing various bait-and-switch maneuvers. Obviously, you have to watch out for those.
posted by deanc at 7:27 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Affordability is basically (from best to worst): elite private school, non-elite private school that gives you a rare big merit scholarship, local state college, flagship public university in state, flagship public out of state, and (worst of all) non-elite private school with a standard loan package. 4 year debt assuming a non-six-figure family income is going to work out like: 0, 20k, 40k, 60k, 80k, and 100k+ respectively.
posted by MattD at 7:44 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by MattD at 7:44 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
When I went to college almost 30 years ago, financial aid was determined based on "need." Total Cost, less amount they think you can afford (this is what all the financial info and forms are for), equals Need. The schools would come up with a package to meet the Need, and that package would include grants, loans, scholarships, work/study hours, etc.
The kicker was that most schools would deduct any scholarships that I earned myself (not part of their package) from the Need part of the equation rather than from the part to come from my family. So my awards didn't reduce what my parents had to pay. Yuck.
I ended up attending a very small, private, liberal arts college in California (outside my home state), which in the end was less expensive for my parents than the in-state university that was my back-up plan. My school calculated a higher Need and was the only school that I applied to that allowed my "outside" scholarships to count toward my family's contribution. I graduated with only $3500 in debt.
Private schools have HUGE endowments and can afford to give more aid. Small schools can take the time to review individual cases and customize aid packages. Don't be afraid to apply and see what they offer.
posted by Boogiechild at 7:58 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
The kicker was that most schools would deduct any scholarships that I earned myself (not part of their package) from the Need part of the equation rather than from the part to come from my family. So my awards didn't reduce what my parents had to pay. Yuck.
I ended up attending a very small, private, liberal arts college in California (outside my home state), which in the end was less expensive for my parents than the in-state university that was my back-up plan. My school calculated a higher Need and was the only school that I applied to that allowed my "outside" scholarships to count toward my family's contribution. I graduated with only $3500 in debt.
Private schools have HUGE endowments and can afford to give more aid. Small schools can take the time to review individual cases and customize aid packages. Don't be afraid to apply and see what they offer.
posted by Boogiechild at 7:58 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you everyone! These responses are GOLD! I truly appreciate them and know they will help us... And others reading too. Gotta love the MeFi!
I'll be reading thru every answer closely and may hit you up with Memail where mentioned. Thanks.
posted by ecorrocio at 9:27 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'll be reading thru every answer closely and may hit you up with Memail where mentioned. Thanks.
posted by ecorrocio at 9:27 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
One other thing to consider is the overall financial support infrastructure available to students at every school: do they provide support for internships to supplement pay? Are there paid summer jobs/research options/fellowships/travel grants? Are the dorms available over breaks, and is there an additional fee if so? Is there a network of alums that provides support for externships or internships? Are there subsidized travel options for department trips (like geology excursions, archaeological fieldwork, international studies options, and conferences?) Is there an inexpensive option for health care and mental care on campus? Does the library have a robust budget with options for purchasing specialized texts, database access, and ILL? This kind of thing isn't factored into any of the official calculations about the cost of college, but can have a huge impact over time. A slightly more expensive-on-paper school might provide other benefits, financial or otherwise, over time that another school with a higher discount can't match.
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:40 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:40 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have been thru this 3x with one more in high school. Feel free to memail. Smorgasbord said it best apply to many - accept with caution. My findings on the east coast has been the further away from your area the more aid is offered because both public and private want a diverse student population. IMO need based particularly if your income is above $75k doesn't seem to matter. My advice is to fill out the FAFSA and apply. Any offers will be in her acceptance letter. Look at scholarships. There are literally tons of small scholarships offered by businesses (big and small) non profits and others. I know people who've cobbled together a few to pay part of the cost. You can negotiate with some schools but is your child academically strong or strong in another area as well? That helps a lot. Don't forget the books and travel expenses. We have found traveling during peak holiday times with college kids to be very pricey depending on their location. My husband and I sat down with each child and explained how much we could afford and that unfortunately they'd be on the hook for any overage. The amounts of money that we are paying right now for undergrad degrees boggles my mind sometimes. Good luck.
posted by lasamana at 12:35 AM on January 22, 2016
posted by lasamana at 12:35 AM on January 22, 2016
I'm working in financial aid at one of these fancy rich private schools (have worked in other types of schools too). Many of these answers are accurate, but especially those that emphasize that the COLLEGE defines what "financial need" is for your family based on the information provided in your financial aid applications. In my experience this doesn't always jive with what the family believes is their true financial need.
The Net Price calculators are usually relatively accurate AS LONG AS the family perfectly understands what they're asking for and provide the exact accurate information being requested. I would strongly encourage you to complete one of these for at least a few schools NOW since it's a relatively slow time in aid offices, and take screenshots of it as you go along. Send the screenshots to the school's financial aid office to ask them to double check the numbers to make sure you did it correctly and are getting accurate results. BUT, if you're self-employed, they are usually NOT that accurate - so contact the aid office to get their input. Most offices are over-worked and under-staffed so be persistent in trying to communicate. (Yes we kind of hate persistent people but the squeaky wheel gets the grease).
I haven't seen anyone mention the application that the fancy rich private schools rely on to determine financial need - the CSS PROFILE, which is run through the College Board (same company that does SAT). The CSS PROFILE costs $$ to complete, unlike the FAFSA (which is still required by all schools). It's available starting in October the year before the student will go to college.
I'll also put an open "MeMail Me!" invite to those following this thread for additional questions - I love most of all to help families directly, but the nature of what we actually do in financial aid can make this difficult.
posted by wannabecounselor at 8:25 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Net Price calculators are usually relatively accurate AS LONG AS the family perfectly understands what they're asking for and provide the exact accurate information being requested. I would strongly encourage you to complete one of these for at least a few schools NOW since it's a relatively slow time in aid offices, and take screenshots of it as you go along. Send the screenshots to the school's financial aid office to ask them to double check the numbers to make sure you did it correctly and are getting accurate results. BUT, if you're self-employed, they are usually NOT that accurate - so contact the aid office to get their input. Most offices are over-worked and under-staffed so be persistent in trying to communicate. (Yes we kind of hate persistent people but the squeaky wheel gets the grease).
I haven't seen anyone mention the application that the fancy rich private schools rely on to determine financial need - the CSS PROFILE, which is run through the College Board (same company that does SAT). The CSS PROFILE costs $$ to complete, unlike the FAFSA (which is still required by all schools). It's available starting in October the year before the student will go to college.
I'll also put an open "MeMail Me!" invite to those following this thread for additional questions - I love most of all to help families directly, but the nature of what we actually do in financial aid can make this difficult.
posted by wannabecounselor at 8:25 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Oh... Adding a mundane question if anyone's still looking: When does the aid finagling take place? ie Get accepted, then work with financial aid office ... Or do some of this earlier?
posted by ecorrocio at 8:44 AM on January 22, 2016
posted by ecorrocio at 8:44 AM on January 22, 2016
My parents hired a private college counselor for me, and one of the things that she was an expert in was figuring out which schools would be most likely to give me a scholarship. She helped us find a school that was a good fit for me and was looking for high-achieving students and would entice them with merit scholarships. I'm sure the counselor was pricey up front but it ended up saving a boatload overall.
posted by radioamy at 8:54 AM on January 22, 2016
posted by radioamy at 8:54 AM on January 22, 2016
In my experience the finagling happens after acceptance. Finagling would be more likely to help with schools that offer merit aid rather than schools advertised as 100% need-based.
posted by wannabecounselor at 9:50 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by wannabecounselor at 9:50 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Agree - aid finagling happens after acceptance. Play up her strengths - great in (subject), strong in (sport) etc. Also is she applying for a degree that is very popular? That may or may not be in your favor. Is she looking at only "name" brand schools? That's another factor. If I were to advise my older ones again, I'd say don't pick a popular school and a popular degree program. Go the less obvious route i.e. maybe not engineering but math as a major. There are so many great lesser known schools out there. Also if truly financially strapped - do a year or 2 of community college and get those prereqs out of the way. As a parent and a consumer I'm truly of 2 minds over college, it's so freaking expensive and if her plans include grad school, save $ on undergrad. OTH depending on her career aspirations, she may really need a top line program.
posted by lasamana at 12:04 PM on January 22, 2016
posted by lasamana at 12:04 PM on January 22, 2016
Research a few international schools as well, just to have an idea what other options she may have.
Canadian colleges and universities are likely to remain at a significant discount for a while, even if their tuition fees for international students are higher than for locals. Many of them are aggressively seeking non-Canadians as well, if not for the most sincere reasons.
Several European schools take another approach and have low tuition fees for international students, but would have other factors to consider - local language, airfare, etc.
posted by Chuckles McLaughy du Haha, the depressed clown at 12:55 PM on January 22, 2016
Canadian colleges and universities are likely to remain at a significant discount for a while, even if their tuition fees for international students are higher than for locals. Many of them are aggressively seeking non-Canadians as well, if not for the most sincere reasons.
Several European schools take another approach and have low tuition fees for international students, but would have other factors to consider - local language, airfare, etc.
posted by Chuckles McLaughy du Haha, the depressed clown at 12:55 PM on January 22, 2016
Oh, I forgot to say that th school my son ended up going to added a few thousand more dollars to his scholarship when we asked them if they could match another school's package. Don't be afraid to ask!
So, here's how it will go: she will narrow down her choices (MAKE SURE she shows demonstrated interest in the schools she REALLY wants to attend - even if that's just a phone call to the department head or admissions team. This is super duper important for some schools but they're not always upfront about it), apply to schools (most likely using the Common Application), and then wait. If finances are a big concern for you, I would probably steer her away from Early Decision (if she's accepted Early Decision, it's binding and you can't look at any other financial aid packages from other schools, because you can only apply ED to one school). Early Action is good and you can compare packages. You'll fill out the FAFSA like, now, I think, and some schools also want you to fill out a CSS profile. There might be separate essays required for merit or honor scholarships at certain schools.
Again, feel free to MeMail me if you have questions! We just did this and our daughter is starting the looking process now (as a sophomore) because she wants to get a jump on things.
posted by cooker girl at 3:49 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, here's how it will go: she will narrow down her choices (MAKE SURE she shows demonstrated interest in the schools she REALLY wants to attend - even if that's just a phone call to the department head or admissions team. This is super duper important for some schools but they're not always upfront about it), apply to schools (most likely using the Common Application), and then wait. If finances are a big concern for you, I would probably steer her away from Early Decision (if she's accepted Early Decision, it's binding and you can't look at any other financial aid packages from other schools, because you can only apply ED to one school). Early Action is good and you can compare packages. You'll fill out the FAFSA like, now, I think, and some schools also want you to fill out a CSS profile. There might be separate essays required for merit or honor scholarships at certain schools.
Again, feel free to MeMail me if you have questions! We just did this and our daughter is starting the looking process now (as a sophomore) because she wants to get a jump on things.
posted by cooker girl at 3:49 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
The key is the "financial need" calculation. The FAFSA used to provide a good estimate of this but as stated above colleges also apply their own calculations.
I attended a top-tier private university (that met 100% of financial need) for less money than I would have paid to attend a state school (that did not).
posted by marmago at 6:39 PM on January 22, 2016
I attended a top-tier private university (that met 100% of financial need) for less money than I would have paid to attend a state school (that did not).
posted by marmago at 6:39 PM on January 22, 2016
In the 1990s, I went to a top-tier private university on the West Coast on a merit-based, 100% full-ride scholarship. I only paid for my books, my student body fee, and parking fees.
posted by culfinglin at 2:06 PM on January 25, 2016
posted by culfinglin at 2:06 PM on January 25, 2016
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- When they say they meet 100% of your need, that means "what we determine you need". Depending on how complex your financial situation is, this could mean "Wow, it's literally exactly how much I need!" or it could mean "How on earth did they think I only needed $5 a year when in fact I only have $5 to my name?" All decisions are possible to appeal, but your aid numbers may come back looking way less awesome than you hoped and you should be prepared for that eventuality. And if they come back looking less awesome than you hoped, in the meantime other students are accepting their generous aid packages, eating up pieces of the aid pie and making it so there's less available for you on appeal.
- Much of the "aid" can be in the form of loans at most schools. So your daughter will be on the hook to pay it back. Read all fine print and proceed with caution.
- The aid question is not in general loaded by ability to pay. This is what "need-blind admissions" means, that they make an admissions decision without taking your financial situation into account, and most schools practice need-blind admissions. Some don't, claiming that this means they can be sure that they're not admitting a class that's so needy they can't sustainably support their financial aid.
Your daughter should definitely apply to some schools for which you couldn't afford to pay sticker. But she should not get her heart set on any of them, because until you get the financial aid letters you just can't know what you'll be able to afford.
posted by town of cats at 3:42 PM on January 21, 2016 [11 favorites]