I just wanted to make some tea!
January 21, 2016 8:35 AM Subscribe
Got a beautiful Russian electric samovar. Now I need help running it on good ol' American electricity. Details (and a Russian electrical schematic!) inside.
I recently purchased an electric samovar from Russia. It's basically a 4-liter water heater with two modes, a boil mode and a keep warm mode, that are switched between by way of a switch on the back. Now, here's the tricky part: this is a Russian appliance, and according to Google translating the packaging and instructions (which are entirely in Russian), the samovar is rated 220-240v, 1850-2200 watts (the instructions claim the boil function draws 1850 watts, and the keep warm function draws 100), and 50/60hz.
The instructions came with electrical schematics for the samovar, if that helps/anyone is interested - they're in Russian, but schematics are schematics.
I'm in the US, so our mains power is 110v and 60hz. Based on some Googling, step-up converters rated for 4500 watts (2x the wattage of the appliance, which a lot of sources seem to say is the recommended bound for a converter) cost $150 and weigh upwards of 20 lbs, which I'd rather avoid. Also based on some googling, it looks like resistive heating elements can be run at lower voltages, they're just less effective. So my questions are as follows:
1. Can I run this samovar on American mains power with an adapter, rather than shelling out for a step-up converter? I'm OK with it running less effectively/taking longer to heat up, as long as it A. works at all and B. is safe.
2. If I do need a converter, can anyone recommend a good one? What's the gold standard for high-wattage step-up converters? If I do need to get one, I'm willing to shell out more money for a more reliable/safe converter; electricity isn't something I want to cut corners on.
3. Russian mains electricity is 50hz, American is 60hz. The manual says it's rated for 50/60hz, so I don't need to worry about frequency, right?
I recently purchased an electric samovar from Russia. It's basically a 4-liter water heater with two modes, a boil mode and a keep warm mode, that are switched between by way of a switch on the back. Now, here's the tricky part: this is a Russian appliance, and according to Google translating the packaging and instructions (which are entirely in Russian), the samovar is rated 220-240v, 1850-2200 watts (the instructions claim the boil function draws 1850 watts, and the keep warm function draws 100), and 50/60hz.
The instructions came with electrical schematics for the samovar, if that helps/anyone is interested - they're in Russian, but schematics are schematics.
I'm in the US, so our mains power is 110v and 60hz. Based on some Googling, step-up converters rated for 4500 watts (2x the wattage of the appliance, which a lot of sources seem to say is the recommended bound for a converter) cost $150 and weigh upwards of 20 lbs, which I'd rather avoid. Also based on some googling, it looks like resistive heating elements can be run at lower voltages, they're just less effective. So my questions are as follows:
1. Can I run this samovar on American mains power with an adapter, rather than shelling out for a step-up converter? I'm OK with it running less effectively/taking longer to heat up, as long as it A. works at all and B. is safe.
2. If I do need a converter, can anyone recommend a good one? What's the gold standard for high-wattage step-up converters? If I do need to get one, I'm willing to shell out more money for a more reliable/safe converter; electricity isn't something I want to cut corners on.
3. Russian mains electricity is 50hz, American is 60hz. The manual says it's rated for 50/60hz, so I don't need to worry about frequency, right?
Do you have a 220 V cooker/dryer outlet near where you'd want to put the samovar? This thing is basically a kettle with a thermostat.
A Scottish expat friend ran a UK kettle from a dryer outlet for years. We never had to wait for tea.
posted by scruss at 9:57 AM on January 21, 2016
A Scottish expat friend ran a UK kettle from a dryer outlet for years. We never had to wait for tea.
posted by scruss at 9:57 AM on January 21, 2016
Seconding andrewcooke.
Most American houses actually do have two phases of power running into them, it's how you typically get 240VAC for your A/C unit or clothes dryer or wall oven. If you had an electrician wire a 240V breaker and outlet to wherever you wanted the samovar and then you fix up the plug, you could in theory make it run normally.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:10 AM on January 21, 2016
Most American houses actually do have two phases of power running into them, it's how you typically get 240VAC for your A/C unit or clothes dryer or wall oven. If you had an electrician wire a 240V breaker and outlet to wherever you wanted the samovar and then you fix up the plug, you could in theory make it run normally.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:10 AM on January 21, 2016
There is a weird kind of adapter out there which has two ordinary 120V plugs, one of which you plug into one of the two 120V legs of your house power, and the other into the other leg, and then that gives you true 240V power at the power strip (or third female plug -- I don't remember which).
You have to plug it into two outlets which actually are on different legs, of course, rather than two on the same leg, but as I recall there's a little indicator light which tells you when you've got it right.
In terms of materials and construction it ought to be a lot cheaper than a step-up transformer (which might tend to trip a standard 20 amp breaker anyway at the power that samovar takes), but I have no idea whether it is or not.
posted by jamjam at 11:34 AM on January 21, 2016
You have to plug it into two outlets which actually are on different legs, of course, rather than two on the same leg, but as I recall there's a little indicator light which tells you when you've got it right.
In terms of materials and construction it ought to be a lot cheaper than a step-up transformer (which might tend to trip a standard 20 amp breaker anyway at the power that samovar takes), but I have no idea whether it is or not.
posted by jamjam at 11:34 AM on January 21, 2016
(Not an EE and can barely pronounce Russian, but the schematics look funny, like a mix between AC and DC power (220V flowing into a diode and LED?).
Andrewcooke, why would the OP get 1/4 power, instead of 1/2 power: if P = IV, half the V, half the P, no?)
posted by suedehead at 11:41 AM on January 21, 2016
Andrewcooke, why would the OP get 1/4 power, instead of 1/2 power: if P = IV, half the V, half the P, no?)
posted by suedehead at 11:41 AM on January 21, 2016
Response by poster: So my girlfriend points out an alternative solution: opening up the samovar and replacing the heating element with an American heating element designed to run correctly on 110 volt power. Is there any reason for us not to do this? Assume that we have access to tools and decent hobby electronics proficiency, though not to a professional EE/electrician level.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:00 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by Itaxpica at 12:00 PM on January 21, 2016
Response by poster: (also does anyone know where to actually buy something like that - basically, the entire guts of an electric tea kettle? My google-fu is mostly just turning up replacement heating elements for clothes dryers)
posted by Itaxpica at 12:03 PM on January 21, 2016
posted by Itaxpica at 12:03 PM on January 21, 2016
The word you want to search for is "calrod". I forget if that's a trademark or not, but that's a common term for the piece of metal that gets hot when you put a large electric current through it.
You won't find them in the typical hardware store but online you can probably find something in the ballpark. Trick will be matching up to the connectors (if there are any) inside the unit itself.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:18 PM on January 21, 2016
You won't find them in the typical hardware store but online you can probably find something in the ballpark. Trick will be matching up to the connectors (if there are any) inside the unit itself.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:18 PM on January 21, 2016
power is 1/4 because it's V^2/R. R is fixed and V halves. if you work out how I changes when V drops, you get the same answer, but it's more work.
i think the weird diode is to reduce the power to the "keep it warm" element, by restricting it to only half the cycle (and the earth sign, which looks like some kind of centre-tapped transformer crossed with a resistance, is perhaps an earthed shield?).
disclaimer: not russian.
posted by andrewcooke at 12:48 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
i think the weird diode is to reduce the power to the "keep it warm" element, by restricting it to only half the cycle (and the earth sign, which looks like some kind of centre-tapped transformer crossed with a resistance, is perhaps an earthed shield?).
disclaimer: not russian.
posted by andrewcooke at 12:48 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not an electrician and this may well be wrong, but here's my understanding. Putting 240v through something rated at 120v will severely damage it. In this case, you're only giving the element half of what it's expecting, so it'll just boil slower (or maybe won't actually boil at all if there's enough water in the samovar).
There are mains doodads like this that you can dangle into a receptacle of water to heat it up, but you'd need to make sure that the one you buy is suited to immersion and is waterproof. You could use one inside the unit without needing to start taking bits of it apart. I don't know how the thermostatic cut off would handle that situation, though. If it's not wired up correctly, you possibly wouldn't actually have a thermostatic cut off. For example, if it runs off the temperature of the heating element, then the element it's testing the heat of won't get hot enough to trip it.
Personally, I'd put a couple of cups of water in it, put it on an extension lead in case it explodes and plug it in to boil, with the anticipation that everything would be fine if somewhat slow. I'm not suggesting that you do this, it's just what I'd do based on my limited understanding of the situation.
posted by Solomon at 12:51 PM on January 21, 2016
There are mains doodads like this that you can dangle into a receptacle of water to heat it up, but you'd need to make sure that the one you buy is suited to immersion and is waterproof. You could use one inside the unit without needing to start taking bits of it apart. I don't know how the thermostatic cut off would handle that situation, though. If it's not wired up correctly, you possibly wouldn't actually have a thermostatic cut off. For example, if it runs off the temperature of the heating element, then the element it's testing the heat of won't get hot enough to trip it.
Personally, I'd put a couple of cups of water in it, put it on an extension lead in case it explodes and plug it in to boil, with the anticipation that everything would be fine if somewhat slow. I'm not suggesting that you do this, it's just what I'd do based on my limited understanding of the situation.
posted by Solomon at 12:51 PM on January 21, 2016
Getting a 240V receptacle installed is the safe way of doing this. If your kitchen has an Edison/MWBC serving the counter receptacles (you can tell because the counter receptacles will be fed with a double breaker or two singles tied together (in my jurisdiction anyways, your AHJ may vary) it's a simple matter to replace the current 120v split receptacle with a 240v. They even make a two outlet 120/240 volt single strap device that would preserve the ability to connect regular appliances at that location.
If you don't have those sorts of circuits in your kitchen but you do have an unused 240V range receptacle an electrician could make you an adapter cord set. Note that this isn't just putting a range plug on your supplied cord as you need to incorporate an appropriate overcurrent device into the adapter.
Some wall A/C receptacles are also 240V so that may be an option if you have one.
Otherwise getting an electrician in to run another circuit can be cheap depending on your residence.
Note that while replacing your devices cord cap with a Nema 6-15R cord cap is, IMO, safe if installed correctly it is technically illegal as the device is unlikely to be UL listed (and even if it was listed replacing the cord cap voids the listing). This may make an electrician wary of replacing the cord cap.
You probably don't need to double your power with the transformer. Because you haven't any inductive loads a 2000W transformer would be fine if it has an appropriate duty cycle (and it would be more efficient to boot)
" why would the OP get 1/4 power, instead of 1/2 power: if P = IV, half the V, half the P, no?)"
P=IV is a short cut combination of fundamental ohms law fromulas V=IR and I = V/R. With a pure resistive load (which any heater essentially is) the only constant is R; changes to either I or V result in changes to V or I respectively. IE: when you drop the voltage it follows that the current (I) also drops as you can see from the second equation and substituting you get P=(V/R)*V.
TL;DR: 1/2 the voltage = 1/4 the power.
jamjam: "There is a weird kind of adapter out there which has two ordinary 120V plugs, one of which you plug into one of the two 120V legs of your house power, and the other into the other leg, and then that gives you true 240V power at the power strip (or third female plug -- I don't remember which).
"
Unless this device is smart enough to disable the connection between the two cord caps until potential is seen on both cords this is an insanely dangerous device (it's essentially a variant of a suicide cord). Don't let anyone talk you into trying to rig something up yourself with parts from the local home improvement Borg. Honestly I wouldn't even buy a commercial device that worked this way; the chances of a failure leading to a deadly condition would be high.
posted by Mitheral at 1:20 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you don't have those sorts of circuits in your kitchen but you do have an unused 240V range receptacle an electrician could make you an adapter cord set. Note that this isn't just putting a range plug on your supplied cord as you need to incorporate an appropriate overcurrent device into the adapter.
Some wall A/C receptacles are also 240V so that may be an option if you have one.
Otherwise getting an electrician in to run another circuit can be cheap depending on your residence.
Note that while replacing your devices cord cap with a Nema 6-15R cord cap is, IMO, safe if installed correctly it is technically illegal as the device is unlikely to be UL listed (and even if it was listed replacing the cord cap voids the listing). This may make an electrician wary of replacing the cord cap.
You probably don't need to double your power with the transformer. Because you haven't any inductive loads a 2000W transformer would be fine if it has an appropriate duty cycle (and it would be more efficient to boot)
" why would the OP get 1/4 power, instead of 1/2 power: if P = IV, half the V, half the P, no?)"
P=IV is a short cut combination of fundamental ohms law fromulas V=IR and I = V/R. With a pure resistive load (which any heater essentially is) the only constant is R; changes to either I or V result in changes to V or I respectively. IE: when you drop the voltage it follows that the current (I) also drops as you can see from the second equation and substituting you get P=(V/R)*V.
TL;DR: 1/2 the voltage = 1/4 the power.
jamjam: "There is a weird kind of adapter out there which has two ordinary 120V plugs, one of which you plug into one of the two 120V legs of your house power, and the other into the other leg, and then that gives you true 240V power at the power strip (or third female plug -- I don't remember which).
"
Unless this device is smart enough to disable the connection between the two cord caps until potential is seen on both cords this is an insanely dangerous device (it's essentially a variant of a suicide cord). Don't let anyone talk you into trying to rig something up yourself with parts from the local home improvement Borg. Honestly I wouldn't even buy a commercial device that worked this way; the chances of a failure leading to a deadly condition would be high.
posted by Mitheral at 1:20 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: A quick note: we rent the apartment we're in so I'd rather avoid anything that involves installing anything (it would be a different story if we owned, but I don't know if the landlord would be on board with this, and even if he were I don't want samovar tea enough to pour my own money in to improving someone else's property).
At this point I'm leaning towards either seeing what happens if I just run this thing on 120v (as per Solomon's comment), or just ignoring the built-in heating element altogether, filling it with already-boiling water, and using an immersion heater like Solomon suggested to keep it at temp.
posted by Itaxpica at 1:44 PM on January 21, 2016
At this point I'm leaning towards either seeing what happens if I just run this thing on 120v (as per Solomon's comment), or just ignoring the built-in heating element altogether, filling it with already-boiling water, and using an immersion heater like Solomon suggested to keep it at temp.
posted by Itaxpica at 1:44 PM on January 21, 2016
Here's the adapter I was talking about.
It's about 3X as expensive as I think would be reasonable, however.
Unless this device is smart enough to disable the connection between the two cord caps until potential is seen on both cords this is an insanely dangerous device (it's essentially a variant of a suicide cord). Don't let anyone talk you into trying to rig something up yourself with parts from the local home improvement Borg. Honestly I wouldn't even buy a commercial device that worked this way; the chances of a failure leading to a deadly condition would be high.
posted by Mitheral
If in your expert opinion this device is unsafe, I'm sure the FTC would appreciate hearing from you, Mitheral.
And if you're going to try rewiring the samovar, and it has naked nichrome wire in a porcelain frame as the heating element, as I suspect it may, it would be possible, but very probably unwise and certainly unsafe without expert guidance, to connect one wire from the 120V supply to the middle of the nichrome wire and the other to both ends. That would give you the original power output but would be a very high load for your 120V circuit, and the connection to the nichrome wire is very tricky for a number of different reasons.
Oh, and running it as is at the lower voltage will probably give you significantly less than 1/4 power because nichrome heating wire has the unusual characteristic of having lower resistance at red heat than at room temperature.
posted by jamjam at 2:11 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's about 3X as expensive as I think would be reasonable, however.
Unless this device is smart enough to disable the connection between the two cord caps until potential is seen on both cords this is an insanely dangerous device (it's essentially a variant of a suicide cord). Don't let anyone talk you into trying to rig something up yourself with parts from the local home improvement Borg. Honestly I wouldn't even buy a commercial device that worked this way; the chances of a failure leading to a deadly condition would be high.
posted by Mitheral
If in your expert opinion this device is unsafe, I'm sure the FTC would appreciate hearing from you, Mitheral.
And if you're going to try rewiring the samovar, and it has naked nichrome wire in a porcelain frame as the heating element, as I suspect it may, it would be possible, but very probably unwise and certainly unsafe without expert guidance, to connect one wire from the 120V supply to the middle of the nichrome wire and the other to both ends. That would give you the original power output but would be a very high load for your 120V circuit, and the connection to the nichrome wire is very tricky for a number of different reasons.
Oh, and running it as is at the lower voltage will probably give you significantly less than 1/4 power because nichrome heating wire has the unusual characteristic of having lower resistance at red heat than at room temperature.
posted by jamjam at 2:11 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Thanks, Mitheral and andrewcooke!)
Itaxpica, I grew up using step-up converters; the nice thing about buying one is that all of a sudden, you have access to a whole lot of other interesting appliances that you might not have been able to use before. I would consider buying one for that reason.
posted by suedehead at 10:52 PM on January 21, 2016
Itaxpica, I grew up using step-up converters; the nice thing about buying one is that all of a sudden, you have access to a whole lot of other interesting appliances that you might not have been able to use before. I would consider buying one for that reason.
posted by suedehead at 10:52 PM on January 21, 2016
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posted by andrewcooke at 9:04 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]