Trading Platform
January 20, 2016 1:04 AM Subscribe
I'm looking to get involved in the Stock Market and whilst looking around have been contacted by a company trying to sell me a Trading Platform solution. ATS 1Trader is the company - Website. Has anyone had any dealing with them?
From the discussion, it all sounds a bit too good. Couple of minutes a night checking what they recommend and buy/selling based on that. They're quoting a monthly 10% return. Price is £4995 down with a further £4995 payable within 3 years if you make a £30,000 profit on your trades.
Thought?
From the discussion, it all sounds a bit too good. Couple of minutes a night checking what they recommend and buy/selling based on that. They're quoting a monthly 10% return. Price is £4995 down with a further £4995 payable within 3 years if you make a £30,000 profit on your trades.
Thought?
Response by poster: FallowKing - thanks for this. You're backing up my thoughts. I'd seen some of those "reviews" and agree they look fake.
posted by lloyder at 1:47 AM on January 20, 2016
posted by lloyder at 1:47 AM on January 20, 2016
My thoughts are that I would strongly warn someone who was just now thinking about getting involved in the stock market against doing anything that would require a trading platform. People who need dedicated trading platforms are professionals (who would probably be using something like Bloomberg terminals) or semi-professionals who know the market like the back of their hands and have been doing this for years and years. And I'd probably warn the latter off as well what with so little room for arbitrage and such with high frequency algorithmical trading all over the place.
Basically, if you needed a trading platform you'd know it already. You probably need a simple brokerage account to let you buy stocks, bonds, and mutual funds with low cost. And for that you need a device capable of accessing the web, like the one you posted this on.
posted by Justinian at 2:06 AM on January 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
Basically, if you needed a trading platform you'd know it already. You probably need a simple brokerage account to let you buy stocks, bonds, and mutual funds with low cost. And for that you need a device capable of accessing the web, like the one you posted this on.
posted by Justinian at 2:06 AM on January 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
They're quoting a monthly 10% return.
Scam scam scam scam scam scam scam.
Plus what Justinian said.
posted by PMdixon at 3:43 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Scam scam scam scam scam scam scam.
Plus what Justinian said.
posted by PMdixon at 3:43 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
No no no no no. What Justinian said.
I have seen probably a dozen people (many former HFT quants) lose/leave their cushy firm jobs over the years to go and make it on their own. (Note that these are people who have some level of knowledge and experience with the market already.) I've watched folks hemorrhage tens of thousands of dollars just into their startup costs (getting their place wired for fiber like the big kids, getting a trading platform like the big kids, buying tick data from the exchanges like the big kids, etc) and then get eaten alive.
People who have a few thousand dollars and play around with a simple brokerage account? They do fine. People who have millions of dollars, enough to start their own firm with a staff? Also generally ok. But there seems to be a threshold of folks in the I have $20-100K and I'm going to make the market my bitch range who routinely get themselves into some real trouble. Do. Not. Do it.
Do not do it in general and especially do not do it with a scammy as hell platform like this.
posted by phunniemee at 3:55 AM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have seen probably a dozen people (many former HFT quants) lose/leave their cushy firm jobs over the years to go and make it on their own. (Note that these are people who have some level of knowledge and experience with the market already.) I've watched folks hemorrhage tens of thousands of dollars just into their startup costs (getting their place wired for fiber like the big kids, getting a trading platform like the big kids, buying tick data from the exchanges like the big kids, etc) and then get eaten alive.
People who have a few thousand dollars and play around with a simple brokerage account? They do fine. People who have millions of dollars, enough to start their own firm with a staff? Also generally ok. But there seems to be a threshold of folks in the I have $20-100K and I'm going to make the market my bitch range who routinely get themselves into some real trouble. Do. Not. Do it.
Do not do it in general and especially do not do it with a scammy as hell platform like this.
posted by phunniemee at 3:55 AM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
From the website: "To achieve financial freedom it is essential to make clever investments that provide income and not just a small annual return. It means being proactive and taking control of your finances. In today’s economic environment this approach is becoming a popular alternative to managed funds and our systems empower people to achieve this."
Wow, awesome. What could possibly go wrong?
posted by Short Attention Sp at 5:52 AM on January 20, 2016
Wow, awesome. What could possibly go wrong?
posted by Short Attention Sp at 5:52 AM on January 20, 2016
I read the question: 'I dunno, sounds kinda shady.'
I read the more-inside: 'Mark as spam. Don't click on the unsubscribe link.'
posted by box at 6:07 AM on January 20, 2016
I read the more-inside: 'Mark as spam. Don't click on the unsubscribe link.'
posted by box at 6:07 AM on January 20, 2016
Best answer: The only sane way for an individual investor to get involved in the stock market is to use a low-cost broker, and buy low-fee passively-managed index funds. The Bogleheads wiki is a really good place to start. They will recommend some good books to read, too. The first piece of advice for avoiding scams is to RUN LIKE HELL from anyone or anything promising any sort of return, particularly 10% on a monthly basis. That's insane, a scam, and will never EVER happen in any way that will end well for you and your money.
posted by tybstar at 6:39 AM on January 20, 2016
posted by tybstar at 6:39 AM on January 20, 2016
There are many "trading platforms" selling systems with claims of outlandish returns. They are predatory scams. Avoid them all. Avoid anyone who promises a return from "a system", none of them work.
posted by Nelson at 6:44 AM on January 20, 2016
posted by Nelson at 6:44 AM on January 20, 2016
I think of it this way:
If your system is so good, why would you sell it to me? Why not use it yourself and make ...BILLIONS?
What Justinian said. And start small until you see how difficult trading really is.
posted by H21 at 7:24 AM on January 20, 2016
If your system is so good, why would you sell it to me? Why not use it yourself and make ...BILLIONS?
What Justinian said. And start small until you see how difficult trading really is.
posted by H21 at 7:24 AM on January 20, 2016
Best answer: They are asking for £10,000 out of £30,000 in profits. One third. The best hedge funds in the world are on average asking for 2 and 20 meaning 2% of assets as a fixed fee and 20% of profits. These guys are asking for a fixed fee of £5,000 which translates into a 2% fixed fee on £250,000 of managed money.
Even if this outfit were legit, and I don't think they are, these are astronomical fees. Are you paying brokerage execution fees per share or per trade on top of these?
I have been a self employed, self financed trader for 28 of the last 32 years. I have been a floor trader in Chicago and an upstairs trader in NY. While I think that one can make a living with the stock market, it has to be done full time and with lots of work, research and DISCIPLINE.
Relying on someone else's ideas for getting into positions means you are a prisoner of those ideas. Are they telling you when to get out when they are wrong? When to sell when they are right? You might as well just black box it and not let your human intervention screw it up if their ideas are so good. Meh.
I use Tradestation at this point and have written my own scans in their software. They have a platform that uses, I think, something called Easy Language. It is based on some known programing language but the point is that I am able to identify the ideas that are what I think are good opportunities. not someone else tell me.
If you are willing to spend this money on this platform, I suggest that you reconsider and look at giving a professional your money to manage. It will be cheaper in terms of costs and while it may not yield 10 or 12%, it has a much higher probability of being profitable. Also, your interests are aligned with theirs. In this case, with an upfront monster fee, they really do not care if you are long term profitable or not.
If you are still determined to go ahead on your own, whatever direction you go in, ask yourself this question before you start or before you enter a trade, "What is your edge?"
posted by AugustWest at 7:24 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Even if this outfit were legit, and I don't think they are, these are astronomical fees. Are you paying brokerage execution fees per share or per trade on top of these?
I have been a self employed, self financed trader for 28 of the last 32 years. I have been a floor trader in Chicago and an upstairs trader in NY. While I think that one can make a living with the stock market, it has to be done full time and with lots of work, research and DISCIPLINE.
Relying on someone else's ideas for getting into positions means you are a prisoner of those ideas. Are they telling you when to get out when they are wrong? When to sell when they are right? You might as well just black box it and not let your human intervention screw it up if their ideas are so good. Meh.
I use Tradestation at this point and have written my own scans in their software. They have a platform that uses, I think, something called Easy Language. It is based on some known programing language but the point is that I am able to identify the ideas that are what I think are good opportunities. not someone else tell me.
If you are willing to spend this money on this platform, I suggest that you reconsider and look at giving a professional your money to manage. It will be cheaper in terms of costs and while it may not yield 10 or 12%, it has a much higher probability of being profitable. Also, your interests are aligned with theirs. In this case, with an upfront monster fee, they really do not care if you are long term profitable or not.
If you are still determined to go ahead on your own, whatever direction you go in, ask yourself this question before you start or before you enter a trade, "What is your edge?"
posted by AugustWest at 7:24 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks all, everyone has backed up my initial feelings.
Will be giving this a wide berth :-)
posted by lloyder at 8:28 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Will be giving this a wide berth :-)
posted by lloyder at 8:28 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
It looks like you've already been convinced, but for the benefit of anyone else reading, there are a couple of obvious red flags in this and any other similar scheme which make it a clear scam:
1. Huge expected return. The risk-free bond rate is 0-3% around most of the world right now. Returns somewhat better than that may be possible but entail various amounts of risk. Returns significantly higher than that (promises of 10+% a year) are very unlikely. Returns absurdly higher than that (10% a month) are insane and are either total lies, flat-out gambling (10% returns most months, lose everything some months) or the purview of quant traders who then spend most of those returns on technology and talent(my day job). Realistically, you should expect 0-10% annual long-term returns with some variability year-to-year.
2. Why you? If these guys are so great, why are they approaching you instead of just trading their own money?
3. 5 thousand pounds is an odd number. In particular, it's far too much for a 'retail' system and far too little for a system that actually works (because a system that works could be used to make much more by people with much more money to invest). As a retail investor, you should be paying either zero or close to zero for brokerage (probably some relatively small per-trade fee) and be staying away from software unless all it promises is to simplify budgeting, accounting, asset allocation, etc.
posted by bsdfish at 9:21 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. Huge expected return. The risk-free bond rate is 0-3% around most of the world right now. Returns somewhat better than that may be possible but entail various amounts of risk. Returns significantly higher than that (promises of 10+% a year) are very unlikely. Returns absurdly higher than that (10% a month) are insane and are either total lies, flat-out gambling (10% returns most months, lose everything some months) or the purview of quant traders who then spend most of those returns on technology and talent(my day job). Realistically, you should expect 0-10% annual long-term returns with some variability year-to-year.
2. Why you? If these guys are so great, why are they approaching you instead of just trading their own money?
3. 5 thousand pounds is an odd number. In particular, it's far too much for a 'retail' system and far too little for a system that actually works (because a system that works could be used to make much more by people with much more money to invest). As a retail investor, you should be paying either zero or close to zero for brokerage (probably some relatively small per-trade fee) and be staying away from software unless all it promises is to simplify budgeting, accounting, asset allocation, etc.
posted by bsdfish at 9:21 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to say I clicked on the link you provided and all I could think was "is he kidding?" This "platform" is just bullshit from the get go. I don't want to be mean but the fact that you have asked this question here tells me that you need to change your attitude towards "getting involved in the stock market" because you sound like a sucker. Unless you absolutely know for a fact otherwise assume that the only interest anyone in finance has in you is to take away your money, I am not kidding.
There are a lot of books on "investing" out there, 99% of them are crap or the same old personal finance mantra that could be written on an index card. Don't take my word for it that they are any good but I suggest you read: "Where are the Customers Yachts" by Fred Schwed, "Extraordinary Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay, "A Random Walk Down Wall Street" by Burton G. Malkiel, "Fooled by Randomness" by Nicholas Taleb, "Traders Guns and Money" by Satyajit Das. None of these books will tell you how to "Invest" (except maybe "A Random Walk",) but what they will do is provide some context and insight for your continuing interest, (which I have to say I share,) in "investing."
posted by Pembquist at 9:24 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of books on "investing" out there, 99% of them are crap or the same old personal finance mantra that could be written on an index card. Don't take my word for it that they are any good but I suggest you read: "Where are the Customers Yachts" by Fred Schwed, "Extraordinary Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay, "A Random Walk Down Wall Street" by Burton G. Malkiel, "Fooled by Randomness" by Nicholas Taleb, "Traders Guns and Money" by Satyajit Das. None of these books will tell you how to "Invest" (except maybe "A Random Walk",) but what they will do is provide some context and insight for your continuing interest, (which I have to say I share,) in "investing."
posted by Pembquist at 9:24 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
There's this 'review'
I wouldn't touch this. I'm googling a bit more and seeing more advertisements disguised as reviews.
This one seems to have an honest comment.
Here's a 'discussion', both posters has never made a post before this, and only one made any after.
posted by FallowKing at 1:36 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]