I quit my old life in search of a new one. Now one is emerging...
January 16, 2016 2:33 AM Subscribe
Last year my wife and I jacked in our jobs, sold our apartment and travelled the country for a while. We were expecting to refine our ideas as to what we would do next, but instead - we found out we were having a baby. Cut to now and we realised we had to cut our trip short, came back to my folks place 'temporarily' and the baby has just been born. We're all consumed by the baby and ecstatic that he is here, but we're now worried about what we do next. An opportunity has presented itself that could be really interesting for us, but doesn't pay and is a leap into the unknown. We don't know what to do. More inside...
That summary sounds somewhat crazy and I suppose quitting everything was, but it was the result of realising we would be deeply unhappy if we kept following the path we were on. We lived in the city, both had pressured jobs in shrinking industries and whilst the pay was OK, it wasn't so good that we could ignore the negative impact on our wellbeing. We realised that the economy and world around us was changing so rapidly, just keeping our heads down in the hope that we would keep our jobs and everything would 'just turn out OK' felt unrealistic. We were living a life shrouded in debt (which I'm well aware is often the way), surrounded by unhappy, being made redundant and having change thrust upon them. Our apartment was tiny so if we ever wanted kids we would have to move anyway. We wanted to at least try to start taking control.
So we sold up and hit the road, but very shortly thereafter found out my wife was pregnant. That changed things! We cut the trip and moved in with my folks to start getting our lives straight a little faster.
Initially I was adamant that we could still steer our lives in a direction that made more sense to us and tried getting jobs somewhere out of the city, doing various interesting things (food co-ops, non profit environmental projects to name a couple), but sadly to no avail. After many assurances to ourselves that we would find some direction and we would be having the baby in our own place, we have ended up having the baby here. We're both so happy to have him, but it has only further crystallized the idea that we really want to create a better life for ourselves and therefore him too.
We have been considering pouring our limited savings into something hyper rural and starting something of a homestead. Whilst a lovely idea, its really quite risky and idealist. And of course we've thought about just biting the bullet, going back to our old jobs, but even though we haven't achieved anything, it would be giving up on what we started on when we took the initial leap.
The twist is that I have a part time job offer that sounds interesting. Its working with a start up, focused on media for an audience who are similarly trying to take more control in their own lives, moving away from debt and identifying our (predominantly economic) structural problems as a society. They want me to help them get this off the ground and even, present some of their output. They made content thats been seen millions of times and won awards. They also have a substantial social audience people so are building on these things. Downside is, its unpaid for now, in the city that we used to live and would mean I start commuting and using our savings to rent somewhere. We could stay with my folks who love having us, we're desperate for our own space and we're really too old to be with living under someone else's roof.
Honestly, I think we have been immobilised by the fear of making the wrong decision. That is of course an impossible unknown and now we feel any move is better than just standing still.
Sorry for the long post and I really appreciate you reading. I'm interested to hear where the hive mind have been on similar journeys and really what some of you would do in my shoes.
TL,DR: I quit my whole life a year ago with dreams of doing something more fulfilling and interesting. I now have a son and an opportunity has come up to do something potentially fulfilling and definitely interesting, but it doesn't pay. At some point I need to stand up and start taking care of my new family so do I go back to some version of my old life or twist and continue down the path of the unknown?
That summary sounds somewhat crazy and I suppose quitting everything was, but it was the result of realising we would be deeply unhappy if we kept following the path we were on. We lived in the city, both had pressured jobs in shrinking industries and whilst the pay was OK, it wasn't so good that we could ignore the negative impact on our wellbeing. We realised that the economy and world around us was changing so rapidly, just keeping our heads down in the hope that we would keep our jobs and everything would 'just turn out OK' felt unrealistic. We were living a life shrouded in debt (which I'm well aware is often the way), surrounded by unhappy, being made redundant and having change thrust upon them. Our apartment was tiny so if we ever wanted kids we would have to move anyway. We wanted to at least try to start taking control.
So we sold up and hit the road, but very shortly thereafter found out my wife was pregnant. That changed things! We cut the trip and moved in with my folks to start getting our lives straight a little faster.
Initially I was adamant that we could still steer our lives in a direction that made more sense to us and tried getting jobs somewhere out of the city, doing various interesting things (food co-ops, non profit environmental projects to name a couple), but sadly to no avail. After many assurances to ourselves that we would find some direction and we would be having the baby in our own place, we have ended up having the baby here. We're both so happy to have him, but it has only further crystallized the idea that we really want to create a better life for ourselves and therefore him too.
We have been considering pouring our limited savings into something hyper rural and starting something of a homestead. Whilst a lovely idea, its really quite risky and idealist. And of course we've thought about just biting the bullet, going back to our old jobs, but even though we haven't achieved anything, it would be giving up on what we started on when we took the initial leap.
The twist is that I have a part time job offer that sounds interesting. Its working with a start up, focused on media for an audience who are similarly trying to take more control in their own lives, moving away from debt and identifying our (predominantly economic) structural problems as a society. They want me to help them get this off the ground and even, present some of their output. They made content thats been seen millions of times and won awards. They also have a substantial social audience people so are building on these things. Downside is, its unpaid for now, in the city that we used to live and would mean I start commuting and using our savings to rent somewhere. We could stay with my folks who love having us, we're desperate for our own space and we're really too old to be with living under someone else's roof.
Honestly, I think we have been immobilised by the fear of making the wrong decision. That is of course an impossible unknown and now we feel any move is better than just standing still.
Sorry for the long post and I really appreciate you reading. I'm interested to hear where the hive mind have been on similar journeys and really what some of you would do in my shoes.
TL,DR: I quit my whole life a year ago with dreams of doing something more fulfilling and interesting. I now have a son and an opportunity has come up to do something potentially fulfilling and definitely interesting, but it doesn't pay. At some point I need to stand up and start taking care of my new family so do I go back to some version of my old life or twist and continue down the path of the unknown?
They want me to help them get this off the ground and even, present some of their output. They made content thats been seen millions of times and won awards. They also have a substantial social audience people so are building on these things. Downside is, its unpaid for now, in the city that we used to live and would mean I start commuting and using our savings to rent somewhere.
What us the monetisation plan for this? Where will the money you need to get paid come from?
posted by DarlingBri at 5:13 AM on January 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
What us the monetisation plan for this? Where will the money you need to get paid come from?
posted by DarlingBri at 5:13 AM on January 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
I get the strong impression that living in the city wasn't financially or emotionally ideal even when you both had decent jobs. Long commutes, statistically, dramatically reduce happiness.
I think you need to avoid your previous location and find a day job that won't take over your entire life somewhere less expensive and more pleasant to live. Depending on your fields, both of you working part time while living frugally could be a viable option (I know because that is how I've lived my life). Doing what you love is not usually remunerative unfortunately.
posted by metasarah at 5:30 AM on January 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think you need to avoid your previous location and find a day job that won't take over your entire life somewhere less expensive and more pleasant to live. Depending on your fields, both of you working part time while living frugally could be a viable option (I know because that is how I've lived my life). Doing what you love is not usually remunerative unfortunately.
posted by metasarah at 5:30 AM on January 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
You and your wife both need to find jobs that can support your family. Please don't tie up your time and talents in a startup with limited funding. You and I both know that there's no such thing as part-time at a start up.
Don't go back to a dying industry in an expensive city. That way lies madness.
I'm going to give you some tough love. You haven't really thought this thing out. Not the sabbatical, not your life. Surely knowing that getting pregnant and having a baby would scotch your plans, why did you become pregnant? I suspect neither of you were really thinking a lot about such a big life change would change plans that involved taking a HUGE financial risk. I'll also point out that if you're down to meager savings that you didn't have enough money to actually take a year off.
That tells me that neither you, nor your wife are very good at planning. I'm not saying you have a bad outcome, not at all. I'm just saying that doing something like farming might not be up your alley. You might enjoy playing at Farm, but actual farming requires a commitment, education and sacrifice that I don't think you're able to achieve right now. If you think having a baby is hard, having a farm is like having 100 babies.
Hoping a direction for your lives would fall from heaven was naïve and I think you now know that. At this point you and your wife need to assess your current skill sets and determine what types of work you're able to do. If you need new skills then get them. Use your savings to become educated in something new. Learn programming, get an RN, get a teaching certificate, whatever it is that your interest and talents point you to. If you need some help, do some interest assessments and career counseling. You have a family now, it's more than just the two of you, time to grow up and realize that work is simply an exchange of skills for money. As much as you enjoy your job, it's rarely a way of fulfilling yourself.
Then look at locations that would be inexpensive to live and where it's possible to rear a family with a modest salary. Get jobs that are fun, and that allow you to work and then to leave that work at 5 so that you can enjoy your family time. Find your fulfillment outside of your work, see work as a means to an end. Volunteer for causes you believe in during your off hours.
Not everyone can be a cowboy or astronaut. It's okay, once you get over the disappointment, you'll find that working and being with your family is enough to give you satisfaction.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:04 AM on January 16, 2016 [64 favorites]
Don't go back to a dying industry in an expensive city. That way lies madness.
I'm going to give you some tough love. You haven't really thought this thing out. Not the sabbatical, not your life. Surely knowing that getting pregnant and having a baby would scotch your plans, why did you become pregnant? I suspect neither of you were really thinking a lot about such a big life change would change plans that involved taking a HUGE financial risk. I'll also point out that if you're down to meager savings that you didn't have enough money to actually take a year off.
That tells me that neither you, nor your wife are very good at planning. I'm not saying you have a bad outcome, not at all. I'm just saying that doing something like farming might not be up your alley. You might enjoy playing at Farm, but actual farming requires a commitment, education and sacrifice that I don't think you're able to achieve right now. If you think having a baby is hard, having a farm is like having 100 babies.
Hoping a direction for your lives would fall from heaven was naïve and I think you now know that. At this point you and your wife need to assess your current skill sets and determine what types of work you're able to do. If you need new skills then get them. Use your savings to become educated in something new. Learn programming, get an RN, get a teaching certificate, whatever it is that your interest and talents point you to. If you need some help, do some interest assessments and career counseling. You have a family now, it's more than just the two of you, time to grow up and realize that work is simply an exchange of skills for money. As much as you enjoy your job, it's rarely a way of fulfilling yourself.
Then look at locations that would be inexpensive to live and where it's possible to rear a family with a modest salary. Get jobs that are fun, and that allow you to work and then to leave that work at 5 so that you can enjoy your family time. Find your fulfillment outside of your work, see work as a means to an end. Volunteer for causes you believe in during your off hours.
Not everyone can be a cowboy or astronaut. It's okay, once you get over the disappointment, you'll find that working and being with your family is enough to give you satisfaction.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:04 AM on January 16, 2016 [64 favorites]
We have been considering pouring our limited savings into something hyper rural and starting something of a homestead.
This is a hard life to lead these days, especially if you have no background in agriculture, and doesn't provide well for things like you or your child developing health problems.
They made content thats been seen millions of times and won awards.
Exposure is still what artists die from. I've seen tons of well meaning and talented groups create good multimedia projects and never getting the funding thing figured out.
would mean I start commuting and using our savings to rent somewhere.
Nopenopenope.
Remember how you were talking about having debt problems? You're talking about effectively paying to work for someone when you're not financially stable. That's how you get debt.
You've made the choice to bring a child into the world. If it weren't for that, it would be OK for you and your wife to pursue interesting but unlikely to pan out dreams, but now you've got to sit down together and figure out a realistic plan to make a successful life together for your son's sake. Jobs usually aren't fun but that's why they're jobs.
posted by Candleman at 6:13 AM on January 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is a hard life to lead these days, especially if you have no background in agriculture, and doesn't provide well for things like you or your child developing health problems.
They made content thats been seen millions of times and won awards.
Exposure is still what artists die from. I've seen tons of well meaning and talented groups create good multimedia projects and never getting the funding thing figured out.
would mean I start commuting and using our savings to rent somewhere.
Nopenopenope.
Remember how you were talking about having debt problems? You're talking about effectively paying to work for someone when you're not financially stable. That's how you get debt.
You've made the choice to bring a child into the world. If it weren't for that, it would be OK for you and your wife to pursue interesting but unlikely to pan out dreams, but now you've got to sit down together and figure out a realistic plan to make a successful life together for your son's sake. Jobs usually aren't fun but that's why they're jobs.
posted by Candleman at 6:13 AM on January 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Agree with Ruthless Bunny. I sympathize as I struggle with this question as well. But I believe it's naive to chase after paradise without a solid foundation under your feet. You can't move somewhere rural without a plan for a source of income -- how will you eat? Subsistence farming?? And it's great to work for a cause you love, but not if it dwindles your savings and takes you further away from self-sufficiency. The world is full of opportunities to do something meaningful while your family starves. The trick is it is someone else's meaning that you are grabbing onto. You need to the discipline to reject these until you have stability. You need to build your own life.
I'm not saying go back to the city and the jobs you hate. What I'm saying is don't go building castles in the sky. Look for a middle path, one that bends gradually towards greater freedom on a time scale of years. For example, could you build up a freelance career you can do online? Could you establish yourselves in a less expensive city that still has opportunities, and might have access to rural living options? Could one of you re-train for a career path that is in high demand and fits more with your values, such as offering more connections to the community? If so, you can make a plan for what you need to do and where you need to be. Figure out what you can offer the world and who is going to need it, and build your life around that. In terms of meaning and greater purpose, this will flow outward from your stable foundation, once you've achieved it.
You might benefit from this -- it really helped me: 'Follow Your Passion' is Wrong.
posted by PercussivePaul at 6:26 AM on January 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm not saying go back to the city and the jobs you hate. What I'm saying is don't go building castles in the sky. Look for a middle path, one that bends gradually towards greater freedom on a time scale of years. For example, could you build up a freelance career you can do online? Could you establish yourselves in a less expensive city that still has opportunities, and might have access to rural living options? Could one of you re-train for a career path that is in high demand and fits more with your values, such as offering more connections to the community? If so, you can make a plan for what you need to do and where you need to be. Figure out what you can offer the world and who is going to need it, and build your life around that. In terms of meaning and greater purpose, this will flow outward from your stable foundation, once you've achieved it.
You might benefit from this -- it really helped me: 'Follow Your Passion' is Wrong.
posted by PercussivePaul at 6:26 AM on January 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
QFT: Exposure is still what artists die from.
Find a job/jobs that pay and can help further your career paths, while keeping you unshrouded from debt. Keeping a roof over your heads isn't "giving up" and "giving in". I spent a couple of years under employed during the worst of the recession with young kids. I was trying to make a go of doing fulfilling things for the exposure .... ughhhh.
Now I'm giddy to have a solid 9-6 again, using the solid skills I have to make things happen while someone else carries the risk and I cash a weekly check. I do fulfilling cool things on my own time and just keep plugging at it. One of these days it will hit, or it won't, but I'll still have a roof over our heads.
posted by tilde at 6:45 AM on January 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Find a job/jobs that pay and can help further your career paths, while keeping you unshrouded from debt. Keeping a roof over your heads isn't "giving up" and "giving in". I spent a couple of years under employed during the worst of the recession with young kids. I was trying to make a go of doing fulfilling things for the exposure .... ughhhh.
Now I'm giddy to have a solid 9-6 again, using the solid skills I have to make things happen while someone else carries the risk and I cash a weekly check. I do fulfilling cool things on my own time and just keep plugging at it. One of these days it will hit, or it won't, but I'll still have a roof over our heads.
posted by tilde at 6:45 AM on January 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
So I'd separate the like, life goal stuff from the nuts and bolts of what having a non miserable day to day life cause tackling both seems kind of untenable and I don't think the issue is lack of decisiveness but rather (and people have mentioned this above) really putting in a lot of forethought and planning into these choices because it really seems like they haven't been fully researched and thought out.
So putting all that aside, I'd start from a pretty simple place. Finding a job that I would be comfortably working in that pays. This has also already been covered, but start ups are messy and really unstable especially when there seems to be no monetary plan past continue to make poplular stuff and it doesn't really sound like you should be working for free. Then start saving and go from there.
Maybe I am just partial to stability but the whole pack up your life thing totally works for some, but only if they're comfortable winding up where they do, cause relying on stuff to work itself out from zero isn't really how that works.
posted by KernalM at 8:22 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
So putting all that aside, I'd start from a pretty simple place. Finding a job that I would be comfortably working in that pays. This has also already been covered, but start ups are messy and really unstable especially when there seems to be no monetary plan past continue to make poplular stuff and it doesn't really sound like you should be working for free. Then start saving and go from there.
Maybe I am just partial to stability but the whole pack up your life thing totally works for some, but only if they're comfortable winding up where they do, cause relying on stuff to work itself out from zero isn't really how that works.
posted by KernalM at 8:22 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
One factor to consider in this is how much you've internalized the message that you can't be an adult while living under someone else's roof and how that does not match well with the concepts you're interested in, like disrupting structural economic problems. The sincere belief that everyone should aspire to own their own homes, ideally homes which are single-family homes with a bedroom for every child and one left over for guests, *is* a structural economic problem.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:31 AM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 8:31 AM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm sure there will be plenty of practical advice for you here, so I'll shout to you from the passionate side. Do it! Take the unpaid job! Do things you love, that you're compelled to do. I have this crazy belief that if you follow your heart, if you do things that have meaning, that provide real tangible value, somehow the other stuff falls miraculously into place. I say we should all do more work for free, take back all the services that have been assigned a dollar value and do them because we are compelled, because they satisfy a real need. The unpaid job sounds like such great work, we need as many people as possible rethinking these flawed institutions...help us find a new way to think about economics! Start giving away what you have, be it time or smiles or advice, old books, great cookies, calm perspective. Ignore the people pressuring you to make a decision quickly, or who imply that the work you've been doing on yourselves is not real work or not as valuable as paid work. It's invaluable work, probably the most important work you could be doing right now.
If you're serious about the homesteading thing, start by reading lots of books and volunteering. Find a place where you can help out long term. Find a way to live the life without investing much to see if that's really what you want. Search for small communities and start developing a network of people who will support your dreams and offer you insight.
posted by hannahelastic at 8:48 AM on January 16, 2016
If you're serious about the homesteading thing, start by reading lots of books and volunteering. Find a place where you can help out long term. Find a way to live the life without investing much to see if that's really what you want. Search for small communities and start developing a network of people who will support your dreams and offer you insight.
posted by hannahelastic at 8:48 AM on January 16, 2016
The video posted by PercussivePaul is really very good, and it speaks directly to your question. I think you will find it very helpful.
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:36 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:36 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
You have a baby. This changes everything. At the same time I totally understand what you're saying about a meaningless city life wearing you down.
If I were you I would continue living with your parents until I got a job and got my financial house in order and could afford my own place. Then I'd get the most affordable place I could find as near to my parents as I could find and start paying off debt and improving my financial health.
You *have* to get a real job with pay and benefits. You just have to - you have a family now and they are depending on you. It doesn't have to be your old job. Definitely look for a less stressful, more fulfilling job if you can, but it has to be a real job you can support your family with. No matter how wonderful the mission of this startup, they are taking advantage of you by asking you to work for free and chances are they're never going to be able to pay you.
Don't discount the importance of familial (and friend, community) support and financial security for your family. They are vitally important things, even if they're prosaic. Once you have that in order, you can start building a life more to your taste, but right now you're just not in a position to be taking flights of fancy.
Definitely look into some personal finance and frugal living type stuff. I'm a big fan of YNAB and The Simple Dollar. It sounds so lame, but is possible to be excited about being responsible and building a good life and home for your family and there are things you can do now, like looking for work nearby to make sure your commute isn't awful, that will make life less stressful.
Starting a new life with a young family is an exciting adventure on its own. Best of luck to you!
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:01 AM on January 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I were you I would continue living with your parents until I got a job and got my financial house in order and could afford my own place. Then I'd get the most affordable place I could find as near to my parents as I could find and start paying off debt and improving my financial health.
You *have* to get a real job with pay and benefits. You just have to - you have a family now and they are depending on you. It doesn't have to be your old job. Definitely look for a less stressful, more fulfilling job if you can, but it has to be a real job you can support your family with. No matter how wonderful the mission of this startup, they are taking advantage of you by asking you to work for free and chances are they're never going to be able to pay you.
Don't discount the importance of familial (and friend, community) support and financial security for your family. They are vitally important things, even if they're prosaic. Once you have that in order, you can start building a life more to your taste, but right now you're just not in a position to be taking flights of fancy.
Definitely look into some personal finance and frugal living type stuff. I'm a big fan of YNAB and The Simple Dollar. It sounds so lame, but is possible to be excited about being responsible and building a good life and home for your family and there are things you can do now, like looking for work nearby to make sure your commute isn't awful, that will make life less stressful.
Starting a new life with a young family is an exciting adventure on its own. Best of luck to you!
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:01 AM on January 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you want to, read The Dirty Life, Better Off, and other "we started a farm" books. What I took from the first one on that list is that starting a farm is expensive (unless you get really lucky like the protagonists did), complicated, requires a lot of planning, and requires a LOT OF hard round-the-clock work. I feel like if you guys had the passion required to pull that off, you would've already been, like, spending your (pre-baby) free time reading seed catalogues.
I would not use your savings to take an unpaid job. If they want you that bad, they can let you telecommute from your parents' home so you can keep costs low.
posted by salvia at 12:37 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would not use your savings to take an unpaid job. If they want you that bad, they can let you telecommute from your parents' home so you can keep costs low.
posted by salvia at 12:37 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hey all,
OP here on a throwaway - thanks for all the thoughts so far. Overwhelmingly the sentiment seems to be 'you didn't think this through, get a job and settle down'. Fair enough, I appreciate the reasoning, links and insight.
Just to clear a few things:
DarlingBri: the monetisation plan for the business is legitimate - but not without risk of course. I won't go into detail if thats OK, but as an outfit they are more than just a couple of guys who have stumbled into something interesting. I would be considerably less interested if this were the case. Their documentary won awards as I have mentioned and they have been featured and interviewed in 'mainstream' press / TV on multiple occasions since. They have a company structure that features amongst other things, a well renowned chairman and a production staff already. Finance pursuit is in the next weeks, not months, so I am not in for a long wait if do work with them.
Ruthless Bunny: Thanks and appreciate the honesty. I agree, not everyone gets to be what they want in life and (if I may be cheesy for a moment) having a child gives you way more than you thought you ever wanted. That said, I do want to make clear that we did think about it - we weren't hoping for something to fall out of the sky, but yes, we did think we would be able to take more risk than we now can with a child. The move was a good few years in the making, all the time re-skilliing (for example I extended my skills into agriculture around my job - hence the homestead) and the move was timed really because the value of our apartment was so unbelievably high. We had to move if we ever wanted to live in more than 400sqft and neither of our careers were skyrocketing, partly because our industries are (still) stagnating so badly. By savings I refer to the money that we took out of our apartment sale - which isn't really there - its for a new place to live. We took in excess of $300k cash. Seriously, it was crazy money that we sold for. For sure, we didn't time having a son perfectly, but then the rest of the stars aligned to say: 'if you're going to make a change, here is a chance to do it'.
Whilst we don't all get to do what we want in life, we can sometimes go one better than just playing it safe and never being brave.
Candleman: Remember how you were talking about having debt problems? You're talking about effectively paying to work for someone when you're not financially stable. That's how you get debt.
That's really well put, appreciate you reframing this.
Hannahelastic: Thanks! I do hear what everyone is saying here that getting a normal job is a good thing and as I've said, having a kid has moved things very much in the 'don't take a bunch of risk' direction. That said, I am SO aware that we are in the midst of a seismic shift, away from our old economic and social models to brand new, very different ones. Very broadly our parents generation (I'm in my 30's) can't make sense of this because for them the system worked perfectly. Go out, get a job, buy a house without stretching yourself, get promoted, buy better stuff, enjoy a job for life, acquire more assets, have a retirement plan that won't go to crap and die with a surplus. I really do think that so many in my generation are out in the world, trying to replicate that model with the odds so heavily stacked against them and they have no idea. This is all we have ever been taught. Worse still, they are expecting their children to be able to do something similar and its that idea that frightened me the most when I did stop and question why I was just plugging away at my previous life.
College fees that stay with you until your dying breath that in turn don't guarantee any work, let alone well paid positions, housing that is 10x income to buy, retirement extending into our 70's and beyond, average working hours per week increasing 25% in the last 10 years, increasing taxation for the middle classes - these are the things that face my generation. To argue going back to something akin to what I was doing before is arguably as risky as taking a punt at something unknown and new. Like burying ones head in the sand.
Jess the Mess: Thank you - some solid points. We have precisely zero debt right now. In the previous 5 years we paid everything down apart from the mortgage, which is of course now also gone (also part of the planning).
Your point on community is huge and I totally agree. That again is part of why we left the city. None to speak of at all. My wife in particular is keen to engage meaningfully in a community around us.
Overall, get a job and then I can entertain the idea of doing something with the start up (although most would tread cautiously even then). Thanks MeFi - you are more risk averse than I thought, but just as insightful.
posted by chuckit at 12:39 PM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
OP here on a throwaway - thanks for all the thoughts so far. Overwhelmingly the sentiment seems to be 'you didn't think this through, get a job and settle down'. Fair enough, I appreciate the reasoning, links and insight.
Just to clear a few things:
DarlingBri: the monetisation plan for the business is legitimate - but not without risk of course. I won't go into detail if thats OK, but as an outfit they are more than just a couple of guys who have stumbled into something interesting. I would be considerably less interested if this were the case. Their documentary won awards as I have mentioned and they have been featured and interviewed in 'mainstream' press / TV on multiple occasions since. They have a company structure that features amongst other things, a well renowned chairman and a production staff already. Finance pursuit is in the next weeks, not months, so I am not in for a long wait if do work with them.
Ruthless Bunny: Thanks and appreciate the honesty. I agree, not everyone gets to be what they want in life and (if I may be cheesy for a moment) having a child gives you way more than you thought you ever wanted. That said, I do want to make clear that we did think about it - we weren't hoping for something to fall out of the sky, but yes, we did think we would be able to take more risk than we now can with a child. The move was a good few years in the making, all the time re-skilliing (for example I extended my skills into agriculture around my job - hence the homestead) and the move was timed really because the value of our apartment was so unbelievably high. We had to move if we ever wanted to live in more than 400sqft and neither of our careers were skyrocketing, partly because our industries are (still) stagnating so badly. By savings I refer to the money that we took out of our apartment sale - which isn't really there - its for a new place to live. We took in excess of $300k cash. Seriously, it was crazy money that we sold for. For sure, we didn't time having a son perfectly, but then the rest of the stars aligned to say: 'if you're going to make a change, here is a chance to do it'.
Whilst we don't all get to do what we want in life, we can sometimes go one better than just playing it safe and never being brave.
Candleman: Remember how you were talking about having debt problems? You're talking about effectively paying to work for someone when you're not financially stable. That's how you get debt.
That's really well put, appreciate you reframing this.
Hannahelastic: Thanks! I do hear what everyone is saying here that getting a normal job is a good thing and as I've said, having a kid has moved things very much in the 'don't take a bunch of risk' direction. That said, I am SO aware that we are in the midst of a seismic shift, away from our old economic and social models to brand new, very different ones. Very broadly our parents generation (I'm in my 30's) can't make sense of this because for them the system worked perfectly. Go out, get a job, buy a house without stretching yourself, get promoted, buy better stuff, enjoy a job for life, acquire more assets, have a retirement plan that won't go to crap and die with a surplus. I really do think that so many in my generation are out in the world, trying to replicate that model with the odds so heavily stacked against them and they have no idea. This is all we have ever been taught. Worse still, they are expecting their children to be able to do something similar and its that idea that frightened me the most when I did stop and question why I was just plugging away at my previous life.
College fees that stay with you until your dying breath that in turn don't guarantee any work, let alone well paid positions, housing that is 10x income to buy, retirement extending into our 70's and beyond, average working hours per week increasing 25% in the last 10 years, increasing taxation for the middle classes - these are the things that face my generation. To argue going back to something akin to what I was doing before is arguably as risky as taking a punt at something unknown and new. Like burying ones head in the sand.
Jess the Mess: Thank you - some solid points. We have precisely zero debt right now. In the previous 5 years we paid everything down apart from the mortgage, which is of course now also gone (also part of the planning).
Your point on community is huge and I totally agree. That again is part of why we left the city. None to speak of at all. My wife in particular is keen to engage meaningfully in a community around us.
Overall, get a job and then I can entertain the idea of doing something with the start up (although most would tread cautiously even then). Thanks MeFi - you are more risk averse than I thought, but just as insightful.
posted by chuckit at 12:39 PM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks MeFi - you are more risk averse than I thought...
Well, no. You posted a question about working for a startup (which is something on which MeFi collectively has a lot of knowledge to offer) for free, without posting any information about how you might get paid or anything about your marketable or useful skills. Nobody who isn't a moron is going to reply telling you to go for it, so the answers that followed were entirely predictable.
Finance pursuit is in the next weeks, not months, so I am not in for a long wait if do work with them.
This is a key data point. However, until they can pay you, the only thing they can possibly offer you as compensation is flexibility. If you really want to do this, you should be looking to work from home (your parents' free home) on this gig part-time while looking for other work, and I would give it a maximum of 30 days until they produce a paycheck.
Their documentary won awards as I have mentioned and they have been featured and interviewed in 'mainstream' press / TV on multiple occasions since. They have a company structure that features amongst other things, a well renowned chairman and a production staff already.
Please don't get sucked in by this bullshit. The failure rate for startups is vast. Every single one thinks they are a special fucking snowflake, but it is all of literally no value until someone can show you the money.
the monetisation plan for the business is legitimate - but not without risk of course. I won't go into detail if thats OK,
There are a very limited number of revenue models and I very much doubt your friends have invented a new one. If the monetisation plan for the business is "advertising" then run to the nearest exit. If the monetisation plan for the business involves converting more than .3% of their 'substantial social audience' into revenue-generating customers, you can run while also laughing.
Generally you seem very idealistic and I'm not knocking that. But you should also be aware that a lot of people who are living the life I'm discerning you're after are trustafarians, blowing their VC on organic fair trade coffee, and/or are social entrepeneurs married to b/million-dollar buyout founders.
The absolute bottom line for you and the family depending on you is: money talks, bullshit walks. That has not changed since your parents' era.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:48 PM on January 16, 2016 [14 favorites]
Well, no. You posted a question about working for a startup (which is something on which MeFi collectively has a lot of knowledge to offer) for free, without posting any information about how you might get paid or anything about your marketable or useful skills. Nobody who isn't a moron is going to reply telling you to go for it, so the answers that followed were entirely predictable.
Finance pursuit is in the next weeks, not months, so I am not in for a long wait if do work with them.
This is a key data point. However, until they can pay you, the only thing they can possibly offer you as compensation is flexibility. If you really want to do this, you should be looking to work from home (your parents' free home) on this gig part-time while looking for other work, and I would give it a maximum of 30 days until they produce a paycheck.
Their documentary won awards as I have mentioned and they have been featured and interviewed in 'mainstream' press / TV on multiple occasions since. They have a company structure that features amongst other things, a well renowned chairman and a production staff already.
Please don't get sucked in by this bullshit. The failure rate for startups is vast. Every single one thinks they are a special fucking snowflake, but it is all of literally no value until someone can show you the money.
the monetisation plan for the business is legitimate - but not without risk of course. I won't go into detail if thats OK,
There are a very limited number of revenue models and I very much doubt your friends have invented a new one. If the monetisation plan for the business is "advertising" then run to the nearest exit. If the monetisation plan for the business involves converting more than .3% of their 'substantial social audience' into revenue-generating customers, you can run while also laughing.
Generally you seem very idealistic and I'm not knocking that. But you should also be aware that a lot of people who are living the life I'm discerning you're after are trustafarians, blowing their VC on organic fair trade coffee, and/or are social entrepeneurs married to b/million-dollar buyout founders.
The absolute bottom line for you and the family depending on you is: money talks, bullshit walks. That has not changed since your parents' era.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:48 PM on January 16, 2016 [14 favorites]
You need a short term plan to deal with the immediate need for taking care of your baby and yourselves. Then, don't think about appealing lives that you read about. Think about the end of your life, and what you would like to have accomplished. Work backwards from that.
Realities: Babies are little money pits - doctors' bills and other stuff.
Making money gets more respect than pretty much anything else.
Money buys you the freedom to do other stuff.
If you have an interesting life and take good care of Baby, lack of funds isn't necessarily dire.
The startup - get some advice from people who are tough and realistic. SCORE. Talk to a banker and/or accountant. Is there are realistic business plan? Go to the library, do research on job trends before you commit. Make some plans. Enjoy your baby.
posted by theora55 at 4:42 PM on January 16, 2016
Realities: Babies are little money pits - doctors' bills and other stuff.
Making money gets more respect than pretty much anything else.
Money buys you the freedom to do other stuff.
If you have an interesting life and take good care of Baby, lack of funds isn't necessarily dire.
The startup - get some advice from people who are tough and realistic. SCORE. Talk to a banker and/or accountant. Is there are realistic business plan? Go to the library, do research on job trends before you commit. Make some plans. Enjoy your baby.
posted by theora55 at 4:42 PM on January 16, 2016
I don't see how paying to do an "interesting" job gets you further toward independence or stability: you need money to start a homestead, and being unpaid and uncertain certainly does nothing for stability. It seems like a huge distraction, as well as a money suck that has no guarantee of paying off, and then you'll really have to suck it up and get a paying job that you may not like at all in order to recoup the cash you lost. So more years and more work to be independent, and I guess in the meantime your wife is raising your son by herself while you work startup hours? I honestly don't see any positive here except that you think it might be interesting to take this job.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:14 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 5:14 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
You put it so so so well, yeah! It's my opinion that we're doing ourselves a much bigger favor by developing community (supporting others and accepting help), by becoming more self-reliant and less wasteful, by finding ways to fulfill our needs without money, by turning inward and sorting out our genuine needs-desires-struggles leading us each day closer to a sense of inner peace and of self-knowing, by embracing new paradigms and holding our hands out so other can step in with us, by rejecting things that sensible people tell us and trusting deeply in the truth we feel in our guts, than we are by following the old script.
If we turn our energy to solving these problems, instead of squandering so much of it at joyless jobs, we will find new ways to live, to be, to survive (or even better than merely surviving if we're lucky). What do we need? Food, water, shelter, companionship. One way to get these things is to convert them into a dollar value, to sell your time and energy for dollars, to exchange that for food water shelter. But that's only one way. If you make your "job" finding other ways to obtain these things, you may discover you can live quite happily on very little.
If I were you I'd get serious about how much you think you need in order to live. Shave your expenses. Consider moving to a more rural area where cost of living may be lower. Maybe you can survive on part time work, leaving more time to focus on other important issues. Eat all the food you buy, use everything. Find out what's grown locally, meet people who grow things (not just farmers, but hobbyists, learn how to cook, store, preserve those foods. Learn about foraging. If you live in a place with cold winters, turn off the fridge and keep a cold room. Accept gifts and help. Give what you have. Keep money, energy, and gratitude circulating. Learn about managing your health in the least invasive way possible. Let go of the things we think we need, and realize we don't miss them once they're gone. Forget about plans, stay present and open to opportunities.
Your kid will be such a badass kid of the future no matter what path ya'll take. The best of luck to you.
posted by hannahelastic at 9:16 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
If we turn our energy to solving these problems, instead of squandering so much of it at joyless jobs, we will find new ways to live, to be, to survive (or even better than merely surviving if we're lucky). What do we need? Food, water, shelter, companionship. One way to get these things is to convert them into a dollar value, to sell your time and energy for dollars, to exchange that for food water shelter. But that's only one way. If you make your "job" finding other ways to obtain these things, you may discover you can live quite happily on very little.
If I were you I'd get serious about how much you think you need in order to live. Shave your expenses. Consider moving to a more rural area where cost of living may be lower. Maybe you can survive on part time work, leaving more time to focus on other important issues. Eat all the food you buy, use everything. Find out what's grown locally, meet people who grow things (not just farmers, but hobbyists, learn how to cook, store, preserve those foods. Learn about foraging. If you live in a place with cold winters, turn off the fridge and keep a cold room. Accept gifts and help. Give what you have. Keep money, energy, and gratitude circulating. Learn about managing your health in the least invasive way possible. Let go of the things we think we need, and realize we don't miss them once they're gone. Forget about plans, stay present and open to opportunities.
Your kid will be such a badass kid of the future no matter what path ya'll take. The best of luck to you.
posted by hannahelastic at 9:16 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can still take risks when you have a kid, but you have to have a stable base to work from. First, I'd look at your housing situation. How comfortable is everyone with you being in your parents' house? For some families this could work and everyone would be happy, for some not so much. Second, think about where you can have the life you want with the most bang for your buck. You sound ideally suited for life in a Midwestern college town like Champaign-Urbana if you have skills that could get one or both of you a job at the university. Being in a college town would give you access to people who are interested in the same sustainable living ideals you are, but you wouldn't have to be isolated in the countryside. Then one of you needs to get a super stable full time job with benefits. (Or both of you if you want to build a savings buffer back up.) Once you have stable housing and income for your family, then the other one can start being a little daring on what kind of jobs they take. But have a set time period and don't make one half of the couple the permanently "responsible" one while the other one gets to indulge every job-related whim.
posted by MsMolly at 9:23 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MsMolly at 9:23 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
By the way there are at least two couples in my close network with toddlers (and an infant on the way) who have taken the "risky" route, forgoing more "practical" careers to live a life in line with their own values, and they have so many people rooting for them, supporting them, sharing bounty, opening homes to them, sharing childcare responsibilities, I'm not the least bit worried for them. There are many of us to band together and help when needed. Search for your people, a bigger family!
posted by hannahelastic at 9:30 AM on January 17, 2016
posted by hannahelastic at 9:30 AM on January 17, 2016
I noticed a lot of switching between "I" and "we" in your post, and that made me a little uncomfortable.
Sounds like you love the idea of the new (unpaid) job even though it would mean eating up your (joint) savings to take it. And you're presenting the options as if either it's this or going back to the same old grind that you had before you guys took time out.
You don't mention how your wife feels about all of this. Her opinion should be more important than the opinion of the hive mind.
posted by finding.perdita at 4:49 AM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sounds like you love the idea of the new (unpaid) job even though it would mean eating up your (joint) savings to take it. And you're presenting the options as if either it's this or going back to the same old grind that you had before you guys took time out.
You don't mention how your wife feels about all of this. Her opinion should be more important than the opinion of the hive mind.
posted by finding.perdita at 4:49 AM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
College fees that stay with you until your dying breath that in turn don't guarantee any work, let alone well paid positions, housing that is 10x income to buy, retirement extending into our 70's and beyond, average working hours per week increasing 25% in the last 10 years, increasing taxation for the middle classes - these are the things that face my generation. To argue going back to something akin to what I was doing before is arguably as risky as taking a punt at something unknown and new. Like burying ones head in the sand.My great-grandparents lived the kind of very rural life that you're dreaming about. I heard all about it from my grandparents, who grew up that way. To summarize, "The loans from buying the farm and buying equipment and buying seed stay with you until your dying breath and don't guarantee any harvest, much less a profit. Farms are 10x your income to buy, retirement is non-existent (i.e. dependent on your savings, which are also non-existent). Average working hours per week are all of the daylight hours and often the night hours, too, if you have livestock. Farm taxes may seem reasonable, but the profit margin is so slender that really it is a joke. On top of that, the work is physically very taxing and can result in injury or strain. Rural communities are often very insular or flat out backwards, no culture within easy visiting distance and no free time to create your own culture. The previous generation doesn't understand that it's no longer a sustainable lifestyle, they expect us to just keep on doing what they did but clearly the bright future is in the city with an office job. We were extremely happy to escape that hell."
posted by anaelith at 6:17 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
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I would give it a year with your parents while you take a job nearby, save all the money you can, and continue to plan and explore how you and the family can move on to jobs you can stand and a living situation you like. You are still young, and it sounds like the baby is only a few months old. If you can, stay put for now and try out the part-time unpaid thing, but be looking ahead to a more stable situation and have a plan to get there.
Also if the rural life appeals to you, there are jobs in rural areas in tech stuff you can do largely from home or investigate companies already in rural areas. Some companies have moved out of cities as well. My oldest son and wife got out of the city and awful jobs for reasons similar to yours, they now have several acres in a beautiful rural area, jobs nearby, several pets and are adopting two kids from foster care.
posted by mermayd at 4:32 AM on January 16, 2016