Are there vocational Ivies?
December 30, 2015 10:27 AM Subscribe
My nephew is not interested in college, but is very interested in pursuing vocational education and becoming an electrician, carpenter, or other trade profession. For various reasons his parents are not going to be helpful with this, so I'm looking into options for him.
I went the traditional college route, so I'm less familiar with what's out there for vocational/trade education. So far, all I know about pursuing this route is that you do so by hooking up with local apprenticeship training programs. But is that the only way to go? Specifically, I'm curious if there are programs out there that are competitive that he might look into, or maybe programs based in amazing locations or that would give him somewhat of a college (i.e., residential) experience. He's not really sure what he wants yet, but I'd love to figure out how to learn more about his options. Any anecdotes or resources (books, websites) are welcome.
I went the traditional college route, so I'm less familiar with what's out there for vocational/trade education. So far, all I know about pursuing this route is that you do so by hooking up with local apprenticeship training programs. But is that the only way to go? Specifically, I'm curious if there are programs out there that are competitive that he might look into, or maybe programs based in amazing locations or that would give him somewhat of a college (i.e., residential) experience. He's not really sure what he wants yet, but I'd love to figure out how to learn more about his options. Any anecdotes or resources (books, websites) are welcome.
Check into community colleges. Almost all have certificate programs that will get you started in a trade. Some have 2-year degree programs, where you take the trade-related courses and general education courses too. And you'll usually find knowledgeable people who can point your nephew in the right direction.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 10:44 AM on December 30, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by SuperSquirrel at 10:44 AM on December 30, 2015 [13 favorites]
A caveat about culinary schools: they're expensive, and that's a lot of debt to pay off for a manual-labor job with long hours and relatively low pay. It's an expensive bet to make if the student hasn't worked in an actual kitchen before.
Most modern chefs advise working your way up in a kitchen instead.
posted by homodachi at 10:49 AM on December 30, 2015 [19 favorites]
Most modern chefs advise working your way up in a kitchen instead.
posted by homodachi at 10:49 AM on December 30, 2015 [19 favorites]
You might get some ideas on how he can learn a trade if you call the appropriate (carpenter's, plumber's, electrician's) union local. Alternatively, literally go out to a job site and ask some of the guys working there. Even better, have Nephew go himself --- the workers will probably be more willing to talk to the actual interested person than someone else.
posted by easily confused at 10:52 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by easily confused at 10:52 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am not sure where your nephew lives, but a relative of mine here in New York went to firefighter college. Lived in a firehouse, worked as a fireman while going to classes for firefighting and general education.
posted by AugustWest at 10:53 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 10:53 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
A fair amount of community colleges have technical curriculums, which industry varies by location. For profit tech schools are notorious for high dropout rates, or low placement rates, and student debt, but a few, like Spartain Aviation have a rep for good training.
The only Ivy equivalent I can think of would be an Mercedes trained mechanic.
posted by ridgerunner at 10:58 AM on December 30, 2015
The only Ivy equivalent I can think of would be an Mercedes trained mechanic.
posted by ridgerunner at 10:58 AM on December 30, 2015
A few things come to mind:
-More traditional college with a distinctly technical/trade bent - Something like a maritime college or Boston Architectural College
-More expensive trade craft school - Something like North Bennett Street School or Center for Furniture Craftsmanship (there are several artisan-based woodworking schools around the US, most-focused on furniture or boat-building).
But if his goal is steady, solid employment, a la unions, then an apprenticeship would make the most sense. My understanding is that in a lot of states (assuming you're in the US), it's about four years of apprenticeship (which is often paid). For more information about this, you can probably look at your state's Department of Labor website.
posted by taltalim at 11:06 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
-More traditional college with a distinctly technical/trade bent - Something like a maritime college or Boston Architectural College
-More expensive trade craft school - Something like North Bennett Street School or Center for Furniture Craftsmanship (there are several artisan-based woodworking schools around the US, most-focused on furniture or boat-building).
But if his goal is steady, solid employment, a la unions, then an apprenticeship would make the most sense. My understanding is that in a lot of states (assuming you're in the US), it's about four years of apprenticeship (which is often paid). For more information about this, you can probably look at your state's Department of Labor website.
posted by taltalim at 11:06 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Used to be that Phoenix was the place for well respected Auto repair schools.
posted by notned at 11:14 AM on December 30, 2015
posted by notned at 11:14 AM on December 30, 2015
Arizona State University has a transfer program with Arizona Western College, which offers AA degrees in Electronics, Plumbing, HVAC and Carpentry.
The downside is that it's in Yuma, but it is a traditional college offering vocational classes, also there is a path to a BS via Arizona State, so if he decides that he wants to continue with his education, there's that option.
It's pretty cheap to attend, which is always a bonus and after a year, he'll be eligible for in-state tuition, which you could probably get from searching the couch cushions. They also have on-campus housing, if the kid wants to hob-nob with he fellow students.
I went to ASU for three years. I had a ball (and a 2.0 GPA) but I got that whole 'college experience' which I think is important for young adults to have. It's a safe place to experiment with independence, but to also have that safety net.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:15 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
The downside is that it's in Yuma, but it is a traditional college offering vocational classes, also there is a path to a BS via Arizona State, so if he decides that he wants to continue with his education, there's that option.
It's pretty cheap to attend, which is always a bonus and after a year, he'll be eligible for in-state tuition, which you could probably get from searching the couch cushions. They also have on-campus housing, if the kid wants to hob-nob with he fellow students.
I went to ASU for three years. I had a ball (and a 2.0 GPA) but I got that whole 'college experience' which I think is important for young adults to have. It's a safe place to experiment with independence, but to also have that safety net.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:15 AM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's been over a decade, but I have only good things to say about the Carpenter's Union in Pittsburgh (Carpenter's Training Center). They did a lot in terms of active training, keeping the workforce educated, etc. Within the construction industry carpenters seem to have the highest frequency of moving "up" to being job site superintendents that I've seen. In contrast, plumbers and electricians I believe make better money out the gate.
I'm sure there would be something local. Reliability and willingness to tolerate the sometimes unpleasant conditions and to keep learning better ways to do things will take anyone far in the construction trades.
posted by meinvt at 11:17 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm sure there would be something local. Reliability and willingness to tolerate the sometimes unpleasant conditions and to keep learning better ways to do things will take anyone far in the construction trades.
posted by meinvt at 11:17 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are SO MANY trades with certificate programs now. Basically every field that makes or produces anything has expert-level people on the ground doing the making and producing who didn't go to 4-year college.
Skilled Trades Classes at a tech school near me. Look at the possibilities! Chemical plant operations, microbial investigator, landfill operations, aerospace technicians, packaging engineering (designing boxes to ship stuff in)... there's a TON of options for people who don't want to go to 4-year school and get a desk job.
The thing is, you want to investigate the programs carefully, because a lot of them are kind of scams. All of those are real fields, just that the program itself might not be a great way to break in.
posted by miyabo at 11:28 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Skilled Trades Classes at a tech school near me. Look at the possibilities! Chemical plant operations, microbial investigator, landfill operations, aerospace technicians, packaging engineering (designing boxes to ship stuff in)... there's a TON of options for people who don't want to go to 4-year school and get a desk job.
The thing is, you want to investigate the programs carefully, because a lot of them are kind of scams. All of those are real fields, just that the program itself might not be a great way to break in.
posted by miyabo at 11:28 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know much about it, but I have always been fascinated by Penland School of Crafts, they have am 8 week carpentry class.
Also I don't know much about the Coast Guard at the lower levels, but I work with them often on oil spills and it seems like a very cool branch of the military. Everyone seems competent, yet pretty laid back and there are plenty of jobs for people with the experience that the coast guard provides.
posted by Duffington at 11:30 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also I don't know much about the Coast Guard at the lower levels, but I work with them often on oil spills and it seems like a very cool branch of the military. Everyone seems competent, yet pretty laid back and there are plenty of jobs for people with the experience that the coast guard provides.
posted by Duffington at 11:30 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Investigate local community colleges and contact the trade unions of the trades he's interested in and they can also direct him toward apprenticeships and training. There are a fair amount of fly-by-night and not well-respected options out there, so some research and contact with unions on the front-end can help him get good advice.
posted by quince at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by quince at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are several schools of boatbuilding, both east and west coast. Mostly they focus on wooden boats, but these days even wooden boats are half plastic.
Best known are the Landing School, the ApprenticeShop, and the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding.
posted by SemiSalt at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2015
Best known are the Landing School, the ApprenticeShop, and the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding.
posted by SemiSalt at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2015
At the most basic level, no, there probably aren't "vocational Ivies". The prestige of the Ivy League is not intrinsic; it's just a social thing based on the perceived reputations of the schools. The curriculum at, say, Princeton is not appreciably different than the curriculum at a "little Ivy" like Williams, a "public Ivy" like UVA, or even a regular old public school. It's not like Princeton teaches Shakespeare while State U. lets you read 50 Shades of Gray (if anything, it's probably going to be the other way around). Likewise, the curriculum at most vocational schools will be quite similar from one to another. But since the trades have no social prestige, even the best technical school will not be regarded as highly by non-tradesmen as even a middling B.A.-granting institution. Within the trades, certifications and craftsmanship matter more than educational credentials.
Would your nephew consider engineering? That's kind of the best of both worlds. He gets the traditional college experience, there are extremely prestigious engineering schools and programs, and yet he's still able to do technical work-with-your-hands type work. I ask because it's helpful if he ever wants to advance. My brother went to a vocational school (auto mechanics). He had a 4.0 GPA and was later invited back to teach. In between, he worked for a car manufacturer. He hated it because, with just an associate's degree, he was trapped at an entry level and couldn't move up without an engineering B.A. This isn't a consideration if he wants to work for himself, but it's something to keep in mind.
A lot of traditional colleges offer more technical majors. For example, I know Penn State and Florida both offer Construction Management as a major. A couple of my fraternity brothers at OSU majored in Welding Engineering. I seem to remember Virginia Tech offering some things like that as well. This could satisfy both your nephew and his parents.
There are, as others have noted, some specialist colleges that might fit the bill. Embry-Riddle and Colorado School of Mines are other suggestions to go along with the ones others have already mentioned.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:53 PM on December 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Would your nephew consider engineering? That's kind of the best of both worlds. He gets the traditional college experience, there are extremely prestigious engineering schools and programs, and yet he's still able to do technical work-with-your-hands type work. I ask because it's helpful if he ever wants to advance. My brother went to a vocational school (auto mechanics). He had a 4.0 GPA and was later invited back to teach. In between, he worked for a car manufacturer. He hated it because, with just an associate's degree, he was trapped at an entry level and couldn't move up without an engineering B.A. This isn't a consideration if he wants to work for himself, but it's something to keep in mind.
A lot of traditional colleges offer more technical majors. For example, I know Penn State and Florida both offer Construction Management as a major. A couple of my fraternity brothers at OSU majored in Welding Engineering. I seem to remember Virginia Tech offering some things like that as well. This could satisfy both your nephew and his parents.
There are, as others have noted, some specialist colleges that might fit the bill. Embry-Riddle and Colorado School of Mines are other suggestions to go along with the ones others have already mentioned.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:53 PM on December 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
The Northeast Technical Institute in Maine comes to mind. They do Heating, Air Conditioning, Refrigeration training, among other things.
posted by gudrun at 3:01 PM on December 30, 2015
posted by gudrun at 3:01 PM on December 30, 2015
A little off topic... I worked at a corporate research lab for a bit and they had several machinists. They were absolutely incredible -- they built a custom high-performance computer (designing the PCBs) in a couple of weeks, they built insane robots just for fun, they built their own atomic clock as part of a larger research project. These guys worked with world-renowned, top-tier scientists all day... who had INFINITE respect for them, because if your $10M research project needs to be physically built by somebody, you treat that somebody very well. None of them had 4-year degrees -- I think they mostly had 2-year degrees in CNC, and took it from there. That would be a pretty incredible direction to go if he can do it.
posted by miyabo at 3:09 PM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 3:09 PM on December 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
Culinary schools are NOT Ivies. They're lots of fun, and you learn great stuff that'll last you forever. But they're also $35K and up, and you'll probably make $11 an hour in a major, expensive city when you graduate. They will tell you they're Ivies, and point to a bunch of celebrity chefs and restaurant owners that are deans or graduates. Many (all?) of the major culinary schools have been sued by former graduates. Some schools were willfully misrepresenting themselves. Others were performing misrepresentation by omission, which is technically legal. Be very aware of the financial reality you're facing when you choose to go to culinary school.
posted by cnc at 3:32 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by cnc at 3:32 PM on December 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Back in October, the Economist published a ranking of colleges based on median earnings of employed graduates a decade after enrollment. The top three colleges were the Massachusetts, St Louis and Albany Colleges of Pharmacy. Maritime colleges, such as SUNY Maritime, also ranked well, particularly went factors such as family wealth of enrolled students were taken into account. Here's a more detailed explanation, including a searchable list of universities (which unfortunatly excludes trade schools, but included Polytechnics.)
posted by chrisulonic at 4:03 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by chrisulonic at 4:03 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
My brother attended a well regarded culinary program at our local community college. He got involved with a student group that made money by catering events and used it to travel to the Slow Food conference in Torino, stopping off in Nice and some other places. So you CAN have exciting, cost-effective culinary training.
Our city has a very active and discerning culinary scene, though, so your local CC might not have the same level of instruction/apprenticeship opportunities.
posted by St. Hubbins at 4:55 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Our city has a very active and discerning culinary scene, though, so your local CC might not have the same level of instruction/apprenticeship opportunities.
posted by St. Hubbins at 4:55 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your nephew might be interested in Williamson College of the Trades. They provide full scholarships for all their students and I've heard great things about the programs. There is a religious component to the education, but they are a non-denominational from what I have heard from alumni.
posted by amelliferae at 6:26 PM on December 30, 2015
posted by amelliferae at 6:26 PM on December 30, 2015
The Navy still has active and reservist Seabees; and they still teach HVAC, Electical, Heavy Equipment stuff (cranes, etc), and carpentry. HVAC school in civillian land is at least 20k, military service for one enlistment = VA = ACA coverage for life. Not a bad package at all.
posted by buzzman at 8:46 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by buzzman at 8:46 PM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd second a maritime academy. My cousin graduated from Maine Maritime a few years ago and works on a container ship. He works six months on and six months off and makes at least $100K/year. I'm not sure what the curriculum is like but it might be worth looking into.
posted by bendy at 10:24 PM on December 30, 2015
posted by bendy at 10:24 PM on December 30, 2015
Most craft unions hire apprentices who are given free classes and work while taking them. It's probably the wisest fastest way to a full-time well-paying job. The trick is getting in. The other old boy's network... Thirding Maritime college. My brother didn't think he was college material either. He persevered through SUNY Maritime and he is now happy as a clam.
posted by pynchonesque at 1:00 AM on December 31, 2015
posted by pynchonesque at 1:00 AM on December 31, 2015
Deep Springs College is an extremely selective tiny school in a beautiful location that offers a 2-year program. Most students transfer to Ivies after the 2 years are up, but much of the time at Deep Springs is spent in agriculture work, woodworking, etc. Could be the best of both worlds in case he changes his minds.
posted by luckdragon at 5:52 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by luckdragon at 5:52 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Carpenters don't make a ton of money. People who get really good and become woodworking artisans make better money. There seem to be a lot of musician/ carpenters who have a nice community and lifestyle, but little economic security. Electricians and plumbers can make pretty good money. Plumbing requires dealing with literal shit. They are all different jobs, with different skills and work environments. Know any carpenters or electricians? Ask if nephew can job shadow for a day or 2. Welding and metalwork in another option, and there are always jobs.
I know an electrician who went to a year of community college, then apprenticed. He's smart but not interested in academics. He got into programming circuits for automated systems, makes great money, likes his work, has lots of challenges and learning in day-to-day life.
There are newer job categories for working with printing 3-D stuff, programming equipment like lathes and other machines. There are small to medium shops doing this in most places, and many community colleges and universities have programs. The job outlook is excellent.
I would set up visits with community colleges in the area. And I would talk to the guidance counselors at the high school - as many as possible. They put more effort into the university selections, but they should know who the good trade schools are in your state.
posted by theora55 at 6:36 AM on December 31, 2015
I know an electrician who went to a year of community college, then apprenticed. He's smart but not interested in academics. He got into programming circuits for automated systems, makes great money, likes his work, has lots of challenges and learning in day-to-day life.
There are newer job categories for working with printing 3-D stuff, programming equipment like lathes and other machines. There are small to medium shops doing this in most places, and many community colleges and universities have programs. The job outlook is excellent.
I would set up visits with community colleges in the area. And I would talk to the guidance counselors at the high school - as many as possible. They put more effort into the university selections, but they should know who the good trade schools are in your state.
posted by theora55 at 6:36 AM on December 31, 2015
As mentioned up thread, the North Bennet Street School is a trade school that offers programs in Carpentry, Cabinet and Furniture Making, and Preservation Carpentry, as well as Bookbinding, Locksmithing, Jewelry Making and Repair, Piano Technology, and Violin Making and Repair. It is extremely well regarded, but full disclosure, I'm a graduate. If you have any questions about North Bennet, feel free to message me. I'm happy to let you know more or put you in touch with the Admissions guy, Rob.
posted by clockbound at 8:24 AM on December 31, 2015
posted by clockbound at 8:24 AM on December 31, 2015
He could spend a year after high school actually working for a construction company doing whatever grunt work they give him. This will give him a better sense of what daily physical labor is like and it will give him a better understanding of the various skilled trades. Is he a senior now? If he's not then maybe he could spend next summer working for some local general contractor, although if he's not 18 they may not hire him.
Carpenters and electricians do very different work, and it doesn't sound like he knows much about any of the skilled trades.
posted by mareli at 12:01 PM on December 31, 2015
Carpenters and electricians do very different work, and it doesn't sound like he knows much about any of the skilled trades.
posted by mareli at 12:01 PM on December 31, 2015
I have no wise words beyond this: Dealing with peoples crap is so much easier than dealing with crappy people. Plumbing FTW.
Try for any education available at either a Junior college- 2 yr degrees to be an electrician, machinist, welder, carpenter- or working directly with a local trade union.
Striving to care about, and be good at what you do is far more important than where you get your education.
posted by k8oglyph at 5:15 PM on December 31, 2015
Try for any education available at either a Junior college- 2 yr degrees to be an electrician, machinist, welder, carpenter- or working directly with a local trade union.
Striving to care about, and be good at what you do is far more important than where you get your education.
posted by k8oglyph at 5:15 PM on December 31, 2015
A coworker's son is currently doing a program at the local community collage that will get him an AA degree and a certification as a Ford mechanic. It sounds like a great program since it ends with him both learning a trade and getting a post high school degree that will give him some extra skills that will come in handy no matter what he goes on to do.
posted by nalyd at 7:56 AM on January 1, 2016
posted by nalyd at 7:56 AM on January 1, 2016
A coworker's son is currently doing a program at the local community collage that will get him an AA degree and a certification as a Ford mechanic.
Back in the early nineties, I took a basic auto-shop class at a JC, for fun, and a car manufacturer's rep offered the class this exact deal. It sounded great, if that was your thing.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:43 AM on January 1, 2016
Back in the early nineties, I took a basic auto-shop class at a JC, for fun, and a car manufacturer's rep offered the class this exact deal. It sounded great, if that was your thing.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:43 AM on January 1, 2016
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But, you know what I always say. Coast Guard.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:42 AM on December 30, 2015 [20 favorites]