Relatives making bad financial decisions—can I wash my hands of them?
November 30, 2015 2:44 PM   Subscribe

Some close, older relatives make terrible financial decisions, and are unwilling to stop. My wife and I are liable to wind up financially responsible for them when the money runs out in a few years. How can we wash our hands of this situation (or can we)?

The husband and wife are in their early 70s. (For privacy's sake, I'm omitting how we're related to them.) They're deeply in debt, become more deeply in debt every month, have no money saved for retirement, and have all but abandoned the rental properties that were to serve as their source of retirement income (the ones that they rent out, they rent out to the idiot children of friends, who trash the properties and pay almost nothing in rent). It appears that this is just how they've managed their finances for decades now. Complicating things, they are hoarders. In all other regards, we have a close and friendly relationship.

My wife and I have tried to help them get their act together, in response to their regular complaints about how they really wish they could retire, but our 40-year age difference yields only patronizing responses (basically, "nah, we don't need your help, kids!") Any solution that we propose—seeing a financial planner, seeing a therapist, spending less, selling off depreciating assets, us buying their rental houses—is shot down. In short, they don't want to solve this problem. But we've seen their household finances, and they're headed for financial collapse.

Under family norms, it will be incumbent upon me and my wife to provide for these relatives when their money runs out. This strikes us as totally unfair—if they would just get their act together now, as we're trying to help them to do, they could remain independent indefinitely. And while it's true that we are not legally responsible for them, we'll have no less of a moral obligation.

Is there any way that we can wash our hands of this situation, so that when the time comes, we can say, with a clear conscience, "you're on your own"? Or is the obligation to family so great that, no matter what we say or do in advance, we're on the hook to provide for them?
posted by waldo to Human Relations (26 answers total) 11 users marked this as a favorite
 
Best answer: Only you can answer how great the obligation to your family is. It will vary greatly depending on the family, and our families aren't your family.

I will point out, however, that being kicked out of a family (if it should come to that) is generally not ruinous to your life, whereas allowing these yahoos to spend all your money as well as their own could well be.
posted by kindall at 2:54 PM on November 30, 2015 [19 favorites]


I am confused by this question. You say yourself you're not legally obligated to support them, so the only obligation is a moral one. At that point it comes down to your individual family dynamics as far as what people will expect you to do in this situation. I think the best thing you can do is state what you've done to help and then set the boundaries to your aid you feel are appropriate; unfortunately, you can't also control how your family will react to the boundaries you've set.
posted by Aleyn at 2:55 PM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


I don't know enough about your family to answer the main question, but one question back to you-- can you engage other family members in getting them help now? It may be somebody older can talk sense into them. At the very least, you would be demonstrating that you are trying to help. Could the family together build some kind of safety net which could help them?
posted by frumiousb at 3:02 PM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Not to pun, but morality is relative in this situation. I.e., what you feel obligated to do for friends and family members is your call. And only you know if what you decide -- for example, to let them lie in the street and drink Woolite -- is a a decision you will stick with or not.

I would suggest you give them a clear warning, if you decide you are not going to be providing any financial support in the future, that they are going to be on their own if they run out of money.
posted by bearwife at 3:04 PM on November 30, 2015 [15 favorites]


I would explain very clearly to them that you want to help - and your help comes in the form of assistance and advice in sorting out their financial situation, not in the form of money and taking them in when they reject everything else you've offered. Ask them what their plan is when they have gone through all their cash and have nothing left. When they look at you expectantly, tell them this is not an option which is why why need to follow sound financial advice. This is to help them take your assistance now in digging them out of a hole. It also to let him know that you are not their fallback so they're not surprised in five years when the answer is no. And it also lets them know to look for other sources of support if there are any.
posted by Jubey at 3:09 PM on November 30, 2015 [11 favorites]


I don't think you're morally obligated to support them, but it really doesn't matter what I think. What matters primarily is what you think (and how you feel, and how you will feel when the shit really hits the fan). Are you really going to be able to follow through on cutting them off if the consequences are pretty dire? I think it might be worth talking to a lawyer or financial planner about all of your options, and then very clearly explaining your decisions to your relatives.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:10 PM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'd have one (more) serious sit-down with them. Tell them that you're very concerned about their future security and the imminent financial collapse. Clearly lay-out how their current path leads to disaster and what you're willing to help with in terms of financial planners, taking over the rental properties, etc. Give them a deadline to take you up on it (maybe a couple of months). Tell them that if they don't agree to your assistance now, that you'll be totally unable to financially support them later. Period. Then, stick to it.

There may be social expectations of you, but that doesn't mean that you have to adhere to them, especially when you're going to have to damage your own security to do it. You have to get used to the idea that there will be major social consequences for you not cleaning up after their colossal mess, but I'd rather suffer that than have to sacrifice my own security to aid those who were totally uninterested in helping themselves.

If there's any chance that there's dementia or some other mental capacity issue afoot, you could also investigate getting power of attorney in order to control their finances.
posted by quince at 3:20 PM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


Best answer: I think you are morally obligated to let them know now, rather than later, if you will not be supporting them should things go on this way. In my opinion, it's not a good idea to let anyone-- fiscally responsible or not-- think they can rely on you for support in the future, considering how things can change. But in this case it's especially crucial to discuss explicitly that they need to plan as if you won't be helping them, if that us how you are leaning.
posted by BibiRose at 3:23 PM on November 30, 2015 [18 favorites]


If they were parents or grandparents, I'd do a mini-intervention with other like-minded family members. "We're concerned because we see looming financial disaster and we're not in a position to help you out should you end up broke and homeless."

Another option might be to offer to go with them to a financial planning class, specifically Financial Peace University. "We found this cool thing being offered at your church, we want to go and we want you to come with us." (It's offered at EVERYONE'S church) Now, I'll warn you Dave Ramsey is pretty smug and insufferable, but for a no-nonsense plan for getting out of debt, this one is pretty solid.

Rather than preaching at them, tell them what you're willing to do in a very matter of fact and dispassionate way, and offer them a way out that they can be on board with.

It's hard, people in that age range cannot wrap their heads around how things have changed financially over the years. They hold onto property too long, they own instead of rent at the worst time to do so in their lives. they think the roof, their car, the fridge and the furnace will last forever. It's almost like they're teenagers in reverse, unable to see the consequence of their actions. You can try.

At the end of the day, only you know will know what you're willing to do if they don't get help.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 3:25 PM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


Best answer: It feels so great to wash your hands of responsibility for loved ones. You might expect that the guilt will eat you alive, but nope, in my case, when I stopped trying to manage my mentally ill and drug addicted mother's finances before she ruined herself it was an instant relief. I predict it will be the same for you! (Also, once I stopped helping her she started taking more responsibility for herself. Your situation is different, since they're not letting you help to begin with, but you should let them know that they cannot rely on you and your wife in the future.)

Don't drag them to classes or give them a big come to Jesus talk. Just let it go. Focus on your own financial health because there are times when you'll want to help others. If you're feeling guilty, I highly recommend Modest Needs as a charity that helps people with the kind of expenses that might put someone down on their luck out on the street (car repairs, rent help, buying firewood for the winter). You've said that they brush off your help, so take that to heart. Help those who want your help.

I know it's a cliche, but therapy is super helpful for setting boundaries in situations like this. If getting permission from Metafilter doesn't do give you the push you need to stop trying to help, having a professional tell you that under no circumstances are you responsible for other adults will really help! Good luck. It really does feel great to decide to let it go!
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 3:40 PM on November 30, 2015 [9 favorites]


You can wash your hands of them, but they get to have feelings about it.

We are lucky (seriously) to have a relative living with us for the duration; they contribute to our household a bit financially (tough road for them financially so similar in that way) and also with love and work and care. We knew this was likely so we bought a house that is relatively well set up for it and we have come into it pretty carefully with an exit strategy if it doesn't work out.

We would be providing eldercare support anyway, down the road. It may be tough or easy but we do know it will probably be in place.

Out of that experience, I think there is a way to provide support that isn't ruinous financially but it requires both really advanced planning and an understanding that "help" doesn't mean "pay your bills." This particular configuration works for us, luckily; it probably wouldn't for a lot of people. But it might be worth starting the conversation. We did about 11 years ago and combined households this year.

Off the top of my head, you could see about talking to them about selling some of their assets and jointly investing in a duplex where you would do the tenant vetting and maintenance, with a view towards later having the rent from a paying tenant support a huge break on rent to your relatives, and the property passing to you. I have no idea whether this is a possibility for you and it's a whack of hassle, but you get real estate at the end and know they have somewhere to live once they hit bottom.

I'm really not intimating that you should take this on; I fully support you just saying no. I would definitely try to start talking about it though. Good luck!
posted by warriorqueen at 3:43 PM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


P.s. We have another relative where we know an agreement would not work and we've just said no. Just adding that in too.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:48 PM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I wonder if they have a hope/assumption that come what may, the family will always be there to help out, thus enabling the behavior?

If so, then maybe it's time to stop asking?

Maybe it's time to make it clear that you have reached a breaking point and if they would like you to still be there for them when they need you, some things to start happening, and if those things do not happen, you will not feel any obligation to assist further down the road. If they want to be able to call on you for help, the helping starts now.
posted by anonymisc at 3:54 PM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


To add on to quince's idea: maybe bring an attorney to this final sit-down, to emphasize the gravity of the situation. If they're failing mentally (which I can't really tell from your question), a guardianship might be in order, depending on your jurisdiction. Maybe having an attorney explain the gravity of the situation they're headed towards and the fact that you will not be able to help financially will scare them into compliance?

I don't have advice in terms of the morality of your situation. Good luck.
posted by purple_bird at 4:32 PM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Every time you reach out to try to help them, you are strongly signaling you will be there to pick up the pieces when they smack into the wall.

Please let that sink in for a moment. You've already told them that ultimately their poor choices are your responsibility.

Now. I don't know your greater family dynamic, but I'm pretty sure if you don't want to help these two folks, you need to plan and execute that decision right now. i would put it in writing, somehow. I would let others in the family know it's now their problem. I would probably step waaaaaay back from the couple in question. At least for a while. I would not soften up when they make noises about changing. I will never expect them to change. I will accept they will hit the wall at some point and that I will not help when they do.

If these two wise up and get themselves together on their own like the adults they are then you will never ever have to help them out, anyway. If they smack the wall, well, not your problem.


I don't believe others benefit from the type of interventions you have thus far attempted, it just enables further mistakes, so I have zero problem standing behind the plan I outlined. You do you.
posted by jbenben at 4:41 PM on November 30, 2015 [18 favorites]


Best answer: Oh, wow, you are the person from 2006 who asked what to do about relatives who call and refuse to identify themselves! I still remember that question. I remember wondering what other stuff the relatives were going to ask of you. And now I know!

Did you get caller ID? And pay for it yourself? If so, I would essentially do the same thing, and just plan around the inevitable. I'd put a bunch of money into retirement and college funds, where you can't touch it, and then be able to say in all honesty that you don't have the money when the time comes.

Did the relatives pay for caller ID for you? If so, then I would start spreading the word among the family about how worried you are. Specifically, I would ask an older relative for help because "they'll listen to you." This is a good strategy because it is a) flattering and b) makes it kind of the older person's problem when they fail to listen.

If you actually trained your relatives to identify themselves when they called, then maybe setting a boundary now will work.

I would also like to say that, in my own experience, right after my first kid was born, before baby #2 came along, I got super aware of and worried about the future of relatives like these. Baby #1 is 12 now, and I'm actually a lot less worried. These relatives have 70+ years of practice being themselves. You would be amazed at how long they can drag this out.
posted by selfmedicating at 5:23 PM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I agree you have no moral obligation after you've had a sit-down (or an attempted sit-down). Just make sure you're not co-signed or otherwise obligated for any of those debts.

It's pretty harsh, but someone else's finances, even if you're closely related (except of course spouses and minor children - those you have some responsibilities for in most scenarios) boil down to this:

- if they're alive in the US they're probably entitled to at least some benefits. If they've had more assets but they've pissed them away, well, time to learn to live on social security. You can HELP them with necessities (as you are able) without OBLIGATING yourself by co-signing on loans, etc.

- if they die and have a bunch of obligations, it sucks to be their creditors. Their estate will probably be in the hole, but as long as you have not co-signed for anything, then as Dave Ramsey says ad nauseum "what they own stands good for what they owe." So it's only a problem if you had your heart set on something of theirs - everything will be liquidated (sold) and creditors will be paid as the estate is probated.

There are some places where they are trying to enforce some sort of parental obligation thing for long-term care, and in some medical situations they may also try it on you.

IANAL, and if I were in your situation I might talk to a lawyer just to make sure that you're not entangled in any of these potential situations. But odds are you have no legal problems here, and I would not feel morally obligated to impoverish yourself to support others who aren't taking care of their money.
posted by randomkeystrike at 5:57 PM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I could tell right away this was your in-laws and not your parents. As the strategy for dealing with this isn't obvious to you and your wife then I am surmising you disagree between you. So the first thing to do is to get on Team Marriage and solve this conundrum together; a neutral third party like a marriage counsellor would probably help you find a middle ground you can both agree on. It is tough, and niether of you are wrong, but it definately can be a huge stressor in your marriage and being proactive will relieve a fair amount of anxiety for both of you.
posted by saucysault at 7:01 PM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


You might want to check into filial laws--you may legally be stuck caring for these people in some states.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:19 PM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: As the strategy for dealing with this isn't obvious to you and your wife then I am surmising you disagree between you. So the first thing to do is to get on Team Marriage and solve this conundrum together; a neutral third party like a marriage counsellor would probably help you find a middle ground you can both agree on.

Nope, no problem there. Thanks, though. :)
posted by waldo at 8:19 PM on November 30, 2015


Best answer: Is there any way that we can wash our hands of this situation, so that when the time comes, we can say, with a clear conscience, "you're on your own"? Or is the obligation to family so great that, no matter what we say or do in advance, we're on the hook to provide for them?

This isn't really a question anyone can answer, for reasons described by Aleyn and kindall - obligations and consciences are just so particular.

If there's a strong moral obligation within the relevant culture, and one or both of you feel it, and the couple in question won't do anything about it - which is probably what will happen, because they're 70+ year old hoarders, and fwiw, I am heavily skeptical of efforts to "teach" them any kind of "lesson" at this point - and you have a close and friendly relationship otherwise, odds are the worst case scenario is going to be hard to watch.

But odds are also that there's a solution offered by the government. My suggestion to alleviate guilt, if it does emerge, is to apprise yourselves of the available programs now, make those options known to and understood by the couple, keep watch on their fall as it happens (and accept that it's happening, which would be no small feat), and work to persuade them to get on any waiting lists for subsidized housing as soon as possible in the event they need it (because some of those waiting lists are years long). Consider possible least-costly short-term support options to fill the gap now. Maybe start putting a little "just in case" money aside for that eventuality, just so that you're not stuck if you do find that letting go of them at a crisis point is harder than it appears. Use it for yourselves if they do get housing quickly.

A possible silver lining might be that the worst case scenario still isn't that bad. They might not actually have as hard a time adjusting to a subsidized apartment (and losing ownership etc.) as you imagine. It might be harder to watch than experience. They'd still have a roof over their heads, that's the main thing. They'd be all right.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:38 PM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


get on any waiting lists for subsidized housing as soon as possible in the event they need it (because some of those waiting lists are years long).

Aha but I forgot - the catch is that they can't get on those lists until they lose their equity, sorry :/
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:46 PM on November 30, 2015


Best answer: I would document the shit out of the assistance you've offered, because once the shit hits the fan you will have a piece of paper that you can read back to yourself and go, "Okay, we recommended a therapist, their response was 'we don't need to talk to some stranger'; the financial planner they considered to be 'a scheming crook that would be a waste of good money'; our possibly managing their rental houses was met with 'you kids don't know anything about real estate', etc.". Because there's nothing you can do to get them to change.

Your assistance is like New Horizons. It wasn't aimed at where Pluto was when it was launched, it was aimed more or less where Pluto would be, and the course corrections were applied early in the 9 year period. This situation is like NASA sending up a rocket, huffing gasoline for 7 years, then saying, okay, time to zero in on Pluto.
posted by disconnect at 9:39 AM on December 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


There are a number of resources for family members of hoarders that you might find useful: 1, 2, 3.

I don't have first-hand experience with any of these books, so I can't recommend particular ones, but I read Stuff by Frost and Steketee, and it was very informative about the mental life of hoarders.
posted by painquale at 11:52 AM on December 1, 2015


Response by poster: Did you get caller ID? And pay for it yourself?

I did! Caller ID with a phone that speaks the calling phone number out loud. And if it's those folks calling, I rarely answer the phone. When I do answer, I've got them identifying themselves 90% of the time. The remaining 10% of the time I feign confusion, because I am a passive-aggressive ass, apparently.
posted by waldo at 6:46 PM on December 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: Lotta really helpful answers here, folks. I marked as "best" the few of them that had particularly valuable bits. The largest thing that I got out of this is a survey of how y'all feel, to help regain my own perspective. I've got a to-do list now...and years of work ahead of me!
posted by waldo at 6:55 PM on December 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


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