Final Score: 71-9. In a Youth Basketball game? Really?
November 24, 2015 2:50 PM Subscribe
I attended a nephew's basketball game at the end of last season. It was an age 10-12 league. My nephew's team was the losing one. I was upset by the final score and the tactics the opposing team used. I am hoping mefites more knowledgeable about Basketball can weigh in and tell me whether this was as outrageous as I feel it was or explain whether I am missing some part of Basketball.
This is a regulation basketball court with high school three point lines and one referee.
Because of the age range, there were 3 players on the opposing team who were 5'9" or thereabouts, and several taller than 5'5". On my nephew's team there was 1 player who was 5'10" and everyone else was shorter than 5'5".
Going into the final quarter the opposing team was ahead by 30 points. And they kept trying three pointers (and hit some!), constantly challenged the player who dribbles the ball up the court, often stealing the ball and scoring, aggressively covered the players who were trying to be open to catch the ball when the ball is thrown in after the other team knocks it out of bounds, et cetera.
My nephew's team played hard but the other team was bigger, faster, had more players to send in to give the starters a rest, et cetera. My nephew and his teammates seemed bummed after the game.
I thought this was an outrage. I held my own counsel and did not act like *that* person who overreacts at a youth sports game but I feel like something should have been said to the opposing coach.
The parents and my brother and sister-in-law were watching the game, but also chatting with other parents, and the whole vibe in the stands was laid back. When I said how outrageous what happened was, they kind of shrugged and told me the opposing team coach was a jerk and there were a few more like him in the league, but, you know, what are you going to do?
My only background with sports is I went to a HS with an amazing Lacrosse program. This was in the early-to-mid 90's. The coach was a legend and had been the Varsity coach for 25 years and won something like 8 state championships.
When our team had to play another team not as good, they would get a lead, something like 13-0 or 14-1 and then the best players would rest during the second half and players not as good would play. And they were instructed by the Coach (I actually emailed a friend from HS who played to ask him about this) to continue to play aggressive defense but to emphasize working on passing and other things on offense, not scoring more goals.
So. My HS Lacrosse Coach is the only basis for comparison I have, but wouldn't you expect any youth league to play the same way? Is it common for ridiculous scores & aggressive tactics like this to happen in Youth Basketball? Does it happen at the HS level? What about college or NBA, does this happen? Is there any possible way the opposing teams playing style can be justified? Shouldn't whoever administers the league talk to this Coach? If you are a Coach and were my nephew's Coach, would you have spoken to the other Coach?
If you think there is some aspect I am missing but have not raised, please, feel free to answer.
This is a regulation basketball court with high school three point lines and one referee.
Because of the age range, there were 3 players on the opposing team who were 5'9" or thereabouts, and several taller than 5'5". On my nephew's team there was 1 player who was 5'10" and everyone else was shorter than 5'5".
Going into the final quarter the opposing team was ahead by 30 points. And they kept trying three pointers (and hit some!), constantly challenged the player who dribbles the ball up the court, often stealing the ball and scoring, aggressively covered the players who were trying to be open to catch the ball when the ball is thrown in after the other team knocks it out of bounds, et cetera.
My nephew's team played hard but the other team was bigger, faster, had more players to send in to give the starters a rest, et cetera. My nephew and his teammates seemed bummed after the game.
I thought this was an outrage. I held my own counsel and did not act like *that* person who overreacts at a youth sports game but I feel like something should have been said to the opposing coach.
The parents and my brother and sister-in-law were watching the game, but also chatting with other parents, and the whole vibe in the stands was laid back. When I said how outrageous what happened was, they kind of shrugged and told me the opposing team coach was a jerk and there were a few more like him in the league, but, you know, what are you going to do?
My only background with sports is I went to a HS with an amazing Lacrosse program. This was in the early-to-mid 90's. The coach was a legend and had been the Varsity coach for 25 years and won something like 8 state championships.
When our team had to play another team not as good, they would get a lead, something like 13-0 or 14-1 and then the best players would rest during the second half and players not as good would play. And they were instructed by the Coach (I actually emailed a friend from HS who played to ask him about this) to continue to play aggressive defense but to emphasize working on passing and other things on offense, not scoring more goals.
So. My HS Lacrosse Coach is the only basis for comparison I have, but wouldn't you expect any youth league to play the same way? Is it common for ridiculous scores & aggressive tactics like this to happen in Youth Basketball? Does it happen at the HS level? What about college or NBA, does this happen? Is there any possible way the opposing teams playing style can be justified? Shouldn't whoever administers the league talk to this Coach? If you are a Coach and were my nephew's Coach, would you have spoken to the other Coach?
If you think there is some aspect I am missing but have not raised, please, feel free to answer.
Mercy rules tend to exist in youth leagues for the 10 and under set, but I know of none for jr high and high school games, least where I grew up.
Sometimes there can be a vast disparity of talent between teams in the same league, especially as you point out, when kids are going through puberty. You're high school coach's approach is one way to handle it, and many people feel it's kinder.
It's also a little bit....contemptuous, though, don't you think? "I know we're technically in the same league, but we're obviously so much better than you we're not even going to try. Don't worry --- 1/4 of our best effort is still more than enough to beat the likes of you."
That's the flipside. Or to put it another way, some people feel that the most sportsman-like course is to always put in your best effort to win the game, treating the contest as one in which the other side has a chance.
I don't know that there's a clear, always-right answer to this; depending on the circumstances of the game, sometimes teams are just running up the score. But learning how to deal with loss is part of the reason they play in the first place.
posted by Diablevert at 3:03 PM on November 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
Sometimes there can be a vast disparity of talent between teams in the same league, especially as you point out, when kids are going through puberty. You're high school coach's approach is one way to handle it, and many people feel it's kinder.
It's also a little bit....contemptuous, though, don't you think? "I know we're technically in the same league, but we're obviously so much better than you we're not even going to try. Don't worry --- 1/4 of our best effort is still more than enough to beat the likes of you."
That's the flipside. Or to put it another way, some people feel that the most sportsman-like course is to always put in your best effort to win the game, treating the contest as one in which the other side has a chance.
I don't know that there's a clear, always-right answer to this; depending on the circumstances of the game, sometimes teams are just running up the score. But learning how to deal with loss is part of the reason they play in the first place.
posted by Diablevert at 3:03 PM on November 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
And they ... constantly challenged the player who dribbles the ball up the court, often stealing the ball and scoring, aggressively covered the players who were trying to be open to catch the ball when the ball is thrown in after the other team knocks it out of bounds...
That technique is called the full court press and it's a legitimate, well-known defensive strategy. It was made somewhat famous by Malcolm Gladwell in an article he wrote, later incorporated into the "David and Goliath" book. As you might guess from the title, that specific instance was about a lesser team using a full court press to knock of objectively stronger teams who were not used to that style of play. Sounds like that's not really an issue here.
As for whether "there's any possible way this could be justified," that's up to personal opinions I suppose. There might be some structural incentive to play this way in this league - for example, if a team's average margin of victory is used as a tiebreaker for playoff eligibility or to confer some other advantage late in the season. In which case the guy would still be a dick, but his dickish behavior would be encouraged by league rules.
Or, there is the attitude that letting up on your opponents in a good-faith sporting competition is inherently insulting - team A taking the extravagant luxury to pass up points against team B implies that team B must really suck. (Some sports have this embedded in their structure - e.g. a tennis pro still has to score 6 games to win the set, even if his/her opponent never returns a serve. There's no "mercy" technique available.) You seem to be more of the opinion that once you're far enough ahead, there's no reason to rub it in, and to run up the score is the more insulting approach. I lean more towards the former perspective myself - which is not to say you're wrong, particularly among youth leagues, but just that there is more than one good-faith take on it.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 3:04 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
That technique is called the full court press and it's a legitimate, well-known defensive strategy. It was made somewhat famous by Malcolm Gladwell in an article he wrote, later incorporated into the "David and Goliath" book. As you might guess from the title, that specific instance was about a lesser team using a full court press to knock of objectively stronger teams who were not used to that style of play. Sounds like that's not really an issue here.
As for whether "there's any possible way this could be justified," that's up to personal opinions I suppose. There might be some structural incentive to play this way in this league - for example, if a team's average margin of victory is used as a tiebreaker for playoff eligibility or to confer some other advantage late in the season. In which case the guy would still be a dick, but his dickish behavior would be encouraged by league rules.
Or, there is the attitude that letting up on your opponents in a good-faith sporting competition is inherently insulting - team A taking the extravagant luxury to pass up points against team B implies that team B must really suck. (Some sports have this embedded in their structure - e.g. a tennis pro still has to score 6 games to win the set, even if his/her opponent never returns a serve. There's no "mercy" technique available.) You seem to be more of the opinion that once you're far enough ahead, there's no reason to rub it in, and to run up the score is the more insulting approach. I lean more towards the former perspective myself - which is not to say you're wrong, particularly among youth leagues, but just that there is more than one good-faith take on it.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 3:04 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
You don't want the players on the better team to stop trying or just do drills because in its own way that will humiliate the losing team. I could see their coach resting the starters and putting other players on the court, which to a degree it sounds like happened as you mentioned that other players were coming on to play as well, but on the field/court of play you should do your best.
It isn't even that one team is necessarily that much better than the other, it could just be that everything clicked that day. Very often in pro sports you will see teams trade blowouts with eachother. Learning to keep focus in either situation (winning or losing by a lot) is a good lesson to learn.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:10 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
It isn't even that one team is necessarily that much better than the other, it could just be that everything clicked that day. Very often in pro sports you will see teams trade blowouts with eachother. Learning to keep focus in either situation (winning or losing by a lot) is a good lesson to learn.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:10 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
My kid plays lacrosse, and it happens. He's been on teams on both sides of a crazy high score. I feel it's more important to talk to my kid after such a game. We talk about how teams weren't fairly matched, how the coach handled it, what could have been different. I don't see any point in talking to the high score coach as those coaches don't tend to take any feedback well. It's not worth it.
The only time I've ever made a more formal complaint is when the hits were too violent and too targeted.
posted by Ftsqg at 3:12 PM on November 24, 2015
The only time I've ever made a more formal complaint is when the hits were too violent and too targeted.
posted by Ftsqg at 3:12 PM on November 24, 2015
You've lost perspective.
And they kept trying three pointers (and hit some!), constantly challenged the player who dribbles the ball up the court, often stealing the ball and scoring, aggressively covered the players who were trying to be open to catch the ball when the ball is thrown in after the other team knocks it out of bounds, et cetera.
So the other team played the sport, played it according to the rules, and played it better than your nephew's team.
My nephew's team played hard but the other team was bigger, faster, had more players to send in to give the starters a rest, et cetera. My nephew and his teammates seemed bummed after the game.
Seems like a good opportunity to talk about how life works.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:15 PM on November 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
And they kept trying three pointers (and hit some!), constantly challenged the player who dribbles the ball up the court, often stealing the ball and scoring, aggressively covered the players who were trying to be open to catch the ball when the ball is thrown in after the other team knocks it out of bounds, et cetera.
So the other team played the sport, played it according to the rules, and played it better than your nephew's team.
My nephew's team played hard but the other team was bigger, faster, had more players to send in to give the starters a rest, et cetera. My nephew and his teammates seemed bummed after the game.
Seems like a good opportunity to talk about how life works.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:15 PM on November 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
Mercy rules are a thing, and it looks like they should've been applied here.
That said, basketball is unlike some other sports that allow for teams to "ease up" when the game is out of hand. In baseball, coaches can tell players to stop stealing bases, swing at every pitch, only throw fastballs, stop after 5 innings (the definition of a full, legal game), etc. In football, a team in the lead can elect to only do running plays, and never pass. In soccer or lacrosse, teams can pull back into a defensive stance, operating without strikers.
In basketball ... you still pretty much just gotta play. They could've eased up on the full court press, rested starters, or just say, "don't foul anyone." But you still gotta dribble, shoot and put your hands up on defense. If the other team is that outclassed, it's somewhat difficult to ease up to allow for a safe, "honorable" conclusion.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:16 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
That said, basketball is unlike some other sports that allow for teams to "ease up" when the game is out of hand. In baseball, coaches can tell players to stop stealing bases, swing at every pitch, only throw fastballs, stop after 5 innings (the definition of a full, legal game), etc. In football, a team in the lead can elect to only do running plays, and never pass. In soccer or lacrosse, teams can pull back into a defensive stance, operating without strikers.
In basketball ... you still pretty much just gotta play. They could've eased up on the full court press, rested starters, or just say, "don't foul anyone." But you still gotta dribble, shoot and put your hands up on defense. If the other team is that outclassed, it's somewhat difficult to ease up to allow for a safe, "honorable" conclusion.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:16 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'll also note that if they were trying for an unusual number of three-pointers, that may actually have been *how* they were trying to ease up, as threes have a much lower success rate.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:17 PM on November 24, 2015 [43 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 3:17 PM on November 24, 2015 [43 favorites]
Honestly, as messed up as it is, some kids start getting recruited as young as 12 for college basketball teams. These are of course outlier cases, but one of my former students had colleges scouting his middle school basketball games. He definitely wouldn't have let up against a less-stacked team because he had so much at stake. While I'm totally sympathetic to how difficult/demoralizing being on the rough end of a blow-out is, it's also one of the realities of playing sports.
posted by superlibby at 3:20 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by superlibby at 3:20 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
So. My HS Lacrosse Coach is the only basis for comparison I have, but wouldn't you expect any youth league to play the same way?
Nope. Sometimes teams back off, other times they don't. It depends on the coach. I played youth soccer and then high school soccer, basketball, and lacrosse growing up, on a wide range of teams. I've certainly been on teams where we backed off after the score got ratcheted up, but I've also been on teams that got blown out of the water. I would expect nothing in particular from a youth team, other than that the other team would abide by the rules.
Does it happen at the HS level? What about college or NBA, does this happen?
In my experience, backing off happens more at the lower levels, and much less the higher up you get. I've never heard of an NBA team taking pity on a losing team.
Is there any possible way the opposing teams playing style can be justified?
Yes, it can be justified by the idea that they are two teams playing a sport that has rules, and nothing that the coach did broke those rules.
Shouldn't whoever administers the league talk to this Coach?
I guess that person could? But I don't think they'd say anything harsh, only that he might consider swapping in bench players or practicing some different moves if the score gets too high.
If you are a Coach and were my nephew's Coach, would you have spoken to the other Coach?
If I had gotten frustrated, maybe I would've said, "Hey, no need to run up the score, why not give the second string a chance?" But if I wasn't frustrated, or if I felt it might be good for my team to get walloped (maybe they haven't been practicing as hard as they could) or for a million other reasons, I might not have.
Basically, I think that backing off when the score gets high is a nice thing to do that some teams abide by in some circumstances, but it is no way mandatory or even always necessarily a good idea, and that you are overreacting a little bit.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 3:24 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Nope. Sometimes teams back off, other times they don't. It depends on the coach. I played youth soccer and then high school soccer, basketball, and lacrosse growing up, on a wide range of teams. I've certainly been on teams where we backed off after the score got ratcheted up, but I've also been on teams that got blown out of the water. I would expect nothing in particular from a youth team, other than that the other team would abide by the rules.
Does it happen at the HS level? What about college or NBA, does this happen?
In my experience, backing off happens more at the lower levels, and much less the higher up you get. I've never heard of an NBA team taking pity on a losing team.
Is there any possible way the opposing teams playing style can be justified?
Yes, it can be justified by the idea that they are two teams playing a sport that has rules, and nothing that the coach did broke those rules.
Shouldn't whoever administers the league talk to this Coach?
I guess that person could? But I don't think they'd say anything harsh, only that he might consider swapping in bench players or practicing some different moves if the score gets too high.
If you are a Coach and were my nephew's Coach, would you have spoken to the other Coach?
If I had gotten frustrated, maybe I would've said, "Hey, no need to run up the score, why not give the second string a chance?" But if I wasn't frustrated, or if I felt it might be good for my team to get walloped (maybe they haven't been practicing as hard as they could) or for a million other reasons, I might not have.
Basically, I think that backing off when the score gets high is a nice thing to do that some teams abide by in some circumstances, but it is no way mandatory or even always necessarily a good idea, and that you are overreacting a little bit.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 3:24 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
I played basketball competitively for most of my youth. The big question here is, did the coach of the opposing team pull the starters? If so then this was a valuable opportunity for the second and third string players to get some extended playing time. If that's the case then it's hard to be too critical of what happened. Basketball is all about scoring lots of points so for the non-starters to get much of value from the extra playing time they have to score.
If the coach did not pull the starters then there's a problem there. Heck, even in the pros coaches pull starters or otherwise pull back in some way or another. Often it's just to rest the players and not necessarily out of concern for sportsmanship but that does factor in.
Basketball is different than most sports in that scoring is just something that's going to happen and happen a lot. Gone are the days when a team gets a three point lead in the first quarter and then goes into a 4-corners offense. I played on many teams where we didn't have much (if any) of a bench and when we racked up a huge lead we would still have to play. And this meant score. Now we would get sloppy and do things like let the center try 3-pointers or post up the point guard but if one team really is that much better than the other then it really doesn't matter what you do you'll still outscore and outplay them.
So I guess there are some details and extenuating circumstance which could justify the behavior of the other team and their coach. But the coach might just be a jerk. In competitive sports this is a thing. And it sucks but I don't know if there's much that can be done without creating rules to prevent these things from happening (like "mercy" rules).
And I doubt any coach would want to approach the other coach calling out this behavior. If a coach gets off on blowing a team out and rubbing their noses in it then they are going to get off on the losing coach "whining about it" (the winning coach's term). It's probably best for all concerned to just take the lumps, decide if you would act the same way as the winning team did, and move on. There are far far far far far more important things than sports and jerk coaches.
posted by bfootdav at 3:36 PM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
If the coach did not pull the starters then there's a problem there. Heck, even in the pros coaches pull starters or otherwise pull back in some way or another. Often it's just to rest the players and not necessarily out of concern for sportsmanship but that does factor in.
Basketball is different than most sports in that scoring is just something that's going to happen and happen a lot. Gone are the days when a team gets a three point lead in the first quarter and then goes into a 4-corners offense. I played on many teams where we didn't have much (if any) of a bench and when we racked up a huge lead we would still have to play. And this meant score. Now we would get sloppy and do things like let the center try 3-pointers or post up the point guard but if one team really is that much better than the other then it really doesn't matter what you do you'll still outscore and outplay them.
So I guess there are some details and extenuating circumstance which could justify the behavior of the other team and their coach. But the coach might just be a jerk. In competitive sports this is a thing. And it sucks but I don't know if there's much that can be done without creating rules to prevent these things from happening (like "mercy" rules).
And I doubt any coach would want to approach the other coach calling out this behavior. If a coach gets off on blowing a team out and rubbing their noses in it then they are going to get off on the losing coach "whining about it" (the winning coach's term). It's probably best for all concerned to just take the lumps, decide if you would act the same way as the winning team did, and move on. There are far far far far far more important things than sports and jerk coaches.
posted by bfootdav at 3:36 PM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
There's a school of thought out there that says you dishonor your opponents by not giving them your best effort.
There's also a school of thought out there that says adults have a responsibility to make sure kids come out of their youth sports programs better than when before they encountered them.
I agree with you in that this particular coach probably didn't do very much with regard to the latter - either for your nephew's team or his own. That said - you have an opportunity to guide your nephew here. He can use this experience to get better and to make some decisions about what kind of competitor he wants to be.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 3:40 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's also a school of thought out there that says adults have a responsibility to make sure kids come out of their youth sports programs better than when before they encountered them.
I agree with you in that this particular coach probably didn't do very much with regard to the latter - either for your nephew's team or his own. That said - you have an opportunity to guide your nephew here. He can use this experience to get better and to make some decisions about what kind of competitor he wants to be.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 3:40 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
My 12-year-old grandson has played basketball since he was 6. The younger kids had a mercy rule; the 10-12 leagues do not. The first time I saw a team win by a huge margin, my reaction was the same as yours. My son explained that the kids are coached always to play their best and not become complacent.
posted by Linnee at 3:47 PM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Linnee at 3:47 PM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
I have a kid in this age range who plays a lot of different sports in different types of leagues (Little League, YMCA, private, rec league, etc.) and the scenario you describe is something we've experienced, but it's rare.
I suppose this all depends on where you are and what the culture is like (think basketball in Indiana or football in Texas) but the culture here is that youth sports start out with fundamentals and a hugely important part of that is sportsmanship. 10-12 is still when many kids are playing their first season of basketball (I know this is not the case in many parts of the country).
Playing very aggressive full-court defense against a team you are already CRUSHING isn't something that many coaches around here would do. Aggressively stealing, double-teaming, or preventing the opposing team from inbounding the ball when you have a 50+ point lead? Also pretty frowned upon.
However, what would most people do about it? Probably nothing - those coaches are dicks and not common. And I agree with you that he was a huge jerk. If it bothered the players or parents enough they could probably switch leagues or complain, but some people like that type of super aggressive play.
posted by peep at 3:52 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I suppose this all depends on where you are and what the culture is like (think basketball in Indiana or football in Texas) but the culture here is that youth sports start out with fundamentals and a hugely important part of that is sportsmanship. 10-12 is still when many kids are playing their first season of basketball (I know this is not the case in many parts of the country).
Playing very aggressive full-court defense against a team you are already CRUSHING isn't something that many coaches around here would do. Aggressively stealing, double-teaming, or preventing the opposing team from inbounding the ball when you have a 50+ point lead? Also pretty frowned upon.
However, what would most people do about it? Probably nothing - those coaches are dicks and not common. And I agree with you that he was a huge jerk. If it bothered the players or parents enough they could probably switch leagues or complain, but some people like that type of super aggressive play.
posted by peep at 3:52 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
My son was in a league at age 12 on a team that wasn't the greatest, and there was a "mercy rule" where if one team is ahead by 30 points or something they stop scoring for that team. (So the score is 20 to 50, and the other team has their score stuck at 50 even though they keep scoring).
The "mercy" rule kicked in on a couple of games, and it didn't make his team feel the slightest bit better, and having the other team stop trying would have been just as bad.
The *real* problem with this particular league (and perhaps your nephew's) is that they let players/coaches assemble their own teams, so there are always a few "pro" teams full of great (and tall) players that have been together for years, and a few teams that are just assembled from random kids who wanted to play.
At any rate, there's always going to be teams that lose and teams that win, and while it's no fun to lose, it's even worse to have the other team babying you... 12-year-olds are smart enough to know when they're being coddled and to hate it. It's ultimately just a life lesson.
posted by mmoncur at 3:52 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
The "mercy" rule kicked in on a couple of games, and it didn't make his team feel the slightest bit better, and having the other team stop trying would have been just as bad.
The *real* problem with this particular league (and perhaps your nephew's) is that they let players/coaches assemble their own teams, so there are always a few "pro" teams full of great (and tall) players that have been together for years, and a few teams that are just assembled from random kids who wanted to play.
At any rate, there's always going to be teams that lose and teams that win, and while it's no fun to lose, it's even worse to have the other team babying you... 12-year-olds are smart enough to know when they're being coddled and to hate it. It's ultimately just a life lesson.
posted by mmoncur at 3:52 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mod note: A comment removed. Suggesting ways to take indirect revenge are in no way appropriate here. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:56 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:56 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I am not going to moderate my post or reply to every answer or anything, but I do just want to add a few more things then I am done and will read what everyone has to say. I appreciate the different opinions and perspectives.
Is it really better for the losing team if the winning team just keeps playing that hard? I have a difficult time thinking my nephews team would have felt patronized if the other team was not all over the player (Guard?) taking the ball up the court after a basket and stealing it several times in the last minutes of the game.
Maybe I have not described it the right way? I know the Guard has to contend with an opposing player a few feet in front of him, using his hands to try and swat the ball away, but even during this game I noticed a difference. During the final quarter they were much, much more aggressive challenging the Guard.
Using my HS Lacrosse team as an example, they played teams as good as they were, almost as good, solid teams with good skills but not at their level, et cetera, but also had to play teams that were in their conference or whatever and were much, much less skilled. Like, they should not have had to play each other. With a 13-0 nothing lead after 1 Quarter, a final score could have easily been, I dunno, 35-0, 50-2, if the starters kept playing and attacking.
Does anyone who knows both sports think a score like that would be justifiable? I would find it appalling. I just don't know how a 35-0 score would translate into basketball, you know? I wish I had a better sense of it so I could say, "A 35-0 final in Lacrosse is like xxx-xx in Basketball".
On Preview: Yes, what Cool Pappa Bell & bfootdav said. bfootdav, I think what bothered me the most was that the 3 tallest players on the opposing team (who dominated) did take rests and other players stepped in, but all 3 were playing hard in the final quarter, so you nailed it, the starters were not pulled.
posted by You Get A Favorite For Being A Snowflake at 4:00 PM on November 24, 2015
Is it really better for the losing team if the winning team just keeps playing that hard? I have a difficult time thinking my nephews team would have felt patronized if the other team was not all over the player (Guard?) taking the ball up the court after a basket and stealing it several times in the last minutes of the game.
Maybe I have not described it the right way? I know the Guard has to contend with an opposing player a few feet in front of him, using his hands to try and swat the ball away, but even during this game I noticed a difference. During the final quarter they were much, much more aggressive challenging the Guard.
Using my HS Lacrosse team as an example, they played teams as good as they were, almost as good, solid teams with good skills but not at their level, et cetera, but also had to play teams that were in their conference or whatever and were much, much less skilled. Like, they should not have had to play each other. With a 13-0 nothing lead after 1 Quarter, a final score could have easily been, I dunno, 35-0, 50-2, if the starters kept playing and attacking.
Does anyone who knows both sports think a score like that would be justifiable? I would find it appalling. I just don't know how a 35-0 score would translate into basketball, you know? I wish I had a better sense of it so I could say, "A 35-0 final in Lacrosse is like xxx-xx in Basketball".
On Preview: Yes, what Cool Pappa Bell & bfootdav said. bfootdav, I think what bothered me the most was that the 3 tallest players on the opposing team (who dominated) did take rests and other players stepped in, but all 3 were playing hard in the final quarter, so you nailed it, the starters were not pulled.
posted by You Get A Favorite For Being A Snowflake at 4:00 PM on November 24, 2015
Best answer: To address something several people have mentioned, it's far from coddling or "going easy" on a team to back off from a full-court press. HS, college, and pros usually use it when the game is close. It's pretty insane for the coach of a middle-school aged team to use it to widen an already huge lead.
posted by peep at 4:02 PM on November 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by peep at 4:02 PM on November 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Another thought on resting starters ... sometimes, you don't have an effective back-up for every position. Like, you pull your starting point guard, and now you can't run the offense effectively because the other guards can shoot well enough, but can't dribble to save their life.
That would be bad coaching to get into that kind of a situation in the first place, but it could be another way of looking at a team that doesn't seem willing to pull all the starters all the time.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:25 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
That would be bad coaching to get into that kind of a situation in the first place, but it could be another way of looking at a team that doesn't seem willing to pull all the starters all the time.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:25 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The coach is a jerk. No question about it.
In NBA basketball, you DO NOT take three pointers at the end of a blowout game. It's considered showing up the other team, and is very likely to get you knocked on your ass. Same with a bat flip or staring at a home run too long in Major League Baseball. There are unwritten sportsmanship rules, and this coach didn't follow them.
I'd also disagree that basketball has to be played full on, all the time. You can run the shot clock down before shooting, take outside shots instead of going right to the basket with bigger players, stop the full court press when the other team doesn't dribble or pass well and take your best players out for their backups.
I hate the entire idea of confrontations at children's sports games, and I think the audience members had it right. The coach is a jerk and intentionally ran up the score to embarrass the other team. He's probably not alone. People like that apparently get thrills from smashing the fun of children in the name of making their players "better."
posted by cnc at 4:31 PM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
In NBA basketball, you DO NOT take three pointers at the end of a blowout game. It's considered showing up the other team, and is very likely to get you knocked on your ass. Same with a bat flip or staring at a home run too long in Major League Baseball. There are unwritten sportsmanship rules, and this coach didn't follow them.
I'd also disagree that basketball has to be played full on, all the time. You can run the shot clock down before shooting, take outside shots instead of going right to the basket with bigger players, stop the full court press when the other team doesn't dribble or pass well and take your best players out for their backups.
I hate the entire idea of confrontations at children's sports games, and I think the audience members had it right. The coach is a jerk and intentionally ran up the score to embarrass the other team. He's probably not alone. People like that apparently get thrills from smashing the fun of children in the name of making their players "better."
posted by cnc at 4:31 PM on November 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
So, I played varsity field hockey, basketball and lacrosse in high school and field hockey for a Division I college. I think a pre-high school coach who lets a basketball score get to 71-9 is a dick. It's possible that someone could talk to him, but, honestly, I think the parents' attitude (at least outward attitude) might be best for the kids. If parents make a scene (which I don't think you are suggesting), that's even worse for the kids on the losing team.
Game/coaching-wise, I think the main thing is pulling the starters, but for pre-high school (at 5'10" and 5'5", these aren't 6-10 year olds, which I think makes a difference), I think there are ways that a winning coach can mitigate the slaughter without being patronizing (though I don't know if these kids would feel humiliated more by losing 71-9 or being patronized). So, for example, we were beating a team very badly in 8th grade basketball and our coach made a quiet rule that we had to make seven good passes before shooting or else we would be pulled. The other team would not have necessarily known about the rule, though they would have known we weren't doing a running gun offense. We didn't press and played a zone on defense and practiced a new inbound play and a different flex offense.
I think it's similar to lacrosse (but very different from field hockey) because both can be high scoring and you run actual set plays that a team could work on. I think it's more difficult to go easy on a team in basketball because you are up and down the court so much (and we even played out of state in Maryland in high school where they had a shot clock!).
So, yeah, the coach is a dick and, in my view, should have handled it differently (if possible), and you don't say how the actual winning team kids' sportsmanship was, but the way the losing team's coaches and parents react (showing good losing sportsmanship, etc.) is probably even more important.
posted by Pax at 4:37 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Game/coaching-wise, I think the main thing is pulling the starters, but for pre-high school (at 5'10" and 5'5", these aren't 6-10 year olds, which I think makes a difference), I think there are ways that a winning coach can mitigate the slaughter without being patronizing (though I don't know if these kids would feel humiliated more by losing 71-9 or being patronized). So, for example, we were beating a team very badly in 8th grade basketball and our coach made a quiet rule that we had to make seven good passes before shooting or else we would be pulled. The other team would not have necessarily known about the rule, though they would have known we weren't doing a running gun offense. We didn't press and played a zone on defense and practiced a new inbound play and a different flex offense.
I think it's similar to lacrosse (but very different from field hockey) because both can be high scoring and you run actual set plays that a team could work on. I think it's more difficult to go easy on a team in basketball because you are up and down the court so much (and we even played out of state in Maryland in high school where they had a shot clock!).
So, yeah, the coach is a dick and, in my view, should have handled it differently (if possible), and you don't say how the actual winning team kids' sportsmanship was, but the way the losing team's coaches and parents react (showing good losing sportsmanship, etc.) is probably even more important.
posted by Pax at 4:37 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
(Okay, maybe I'm remembering the flex offense from high school, but you get the point.)
posted by Pax at 4:39 PM on November 24, 2015
posted by Pax at 4:39 PM on November 24, 2015
Adding to what cnc dais, I've read negative comments about major league players being aggressive, e.g. stealing a base, when their team has a big 8 or 10 run lead. Also seen criticism of the NE Patriots for playing aggresssively for a score when another team would try to consume the clock with a long drive of running plays.
But I think you have to give kids some credit for knowing how good they are relative to the other team and accepting it. Kids are in competition all the time in sports, for grades, for social perks. They can shrug off losing most of the time.
And the third team players on the winning team are competing for the chance to move up and get more playing time.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:09 PM on November 24, 2015
But I think you have to give kids some credit for knowing how good they are relative to the other team and accepting it. Kids are in competition all the time in sports, for grades, for social perks. They can shrug off losing most of the time.
And the third team players on the winning team are competing for the chance to move up and get more playing time.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:09 PM on November 24, 2015
As someone who was frequently 2nd or 3rd string in team sports, this would have been a great opportunity for the coach to put people like me in to give us a chance to play, assuming they were there.
But one of the big lessons that lots of coaches teach is "always play hard and don't take anything for granted." You give it your all, even when there's no chance of a win, and even when you're ahead by 20.
There was a baseball player whose name escapes me who always gave a full sprint towards first base, even if his hit was obviously going to get fielded to the first baseman before he got there. It's a sports philosophy. The losing team as well as the winning team should, ideally, have the same "don't leave anything on the field/court" attitude.
That said, scores like this are what the mercy rule was invented for.
posted by deanc at 5:11 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
But one of the big lessons that lots of coaches teach is "always play hard and don't take anything for granted." You give it your all, even when there's no chance of a win, and even when you're ahead by 20.
There was a baseball player whose name escapes me who always gave a full sprint towards first base, even if his hit was obviously going to get fielded to the first baseman before he got there. It's a sports philosophy. The losing team as well as the winning team should, ideally, have the same "don't leave anything on the field/court" attitude.
That said, scores like this are what the mercy rule was invented for.
posted by deanc at 5:11 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think cnc, semisault and deanc have great responses, and I would also add that, at least before high school, sports should, in my very humble opinion, be fun (again speaking from someone who was in varying levels of "competitive" sport from age 5 to age 20). It's actually really hard, in a mismatch like this, to figure out the balance - fun, sportsmanship, competition, humiliation, assholery, etc. So, no easy answer. Ah, life.
posted by Pax at 5:28 PM on November 24, 2015
posted by Pax at 5:28 PM on November 24, 2015
Best answer: That score and pressing in the second half of a youth game is just flat out dickish and someone from the league management should have called the opposing coach out. Even if he had his backups in its unacceptable.
posted by JPD at 6:42 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by JPD at 6:42 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I coached both of my son's youth travel basketball teams. If this was a rec league it is bs regardless of what string was in.
If this was a competitive travel program, I am not sure from the information provided what to think. Playing in a competitive league with playoffs and league standings, there are all sorts of scenarios where this might be acceptable. For example if a tie in the standings is broken by point differential.
I have been on both sides of this. What I do as the coach of the much better that day team is to ask the opposing coach what he wants me to do. Keep playing all out, stall, require my team to pass 5 times before shooting, etc. I always defer to their preference.
What I always told the opposing coach when we were getting crushed was for them to keep playing as if it were a close game. I felt there were more teachable moments that way than to be embarrassed by the other team obviously holding back.
Sometimes we would keep a running clock which would hasten the end of the game.
They keep score for a reason, but it really depends on how you measure success. To me and my teams, we did not measure success by the score or winning. My team that was 9-9 was way more successful than my 16-2 team. They had to work harder and learned way more.
posted by AugustWest at 8:51 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
If this was a competitive travel program, I am not sure from the information provided what to think. Playing in a competitive league with playoffs and league standings, there are all sorts of scenarios where this might be acceptable. For example if a tie in the standings is broken by point differential.
I have been on both sides of this. What I do as the coach of the much better that day team is to ask the opposing coach what he wants me to do. Keep playing all out, stall, require my team to pass 5 times before shooting, etc. I always defer to their preference.
What I always told the opposing coach when we were getting crushed was for them to keep playing as if it were a close game. I felt there were more teachable moments that way than to be embarrassed by the other team obviously holding back.
Sometimes we would keep a running clock which would hasten the end of the game.
They keep score for a reason, but it really depends on how you measure success. To me and my teams, we did not measure success by the score or winning. My team that was 9-9 was way more successful than my 16-2 team. They had to work harder and learned way more.
posted by AugustWest at 8:51 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is 100% dependent on how the league handles standings, if a tie is handled by which team has the most points for the season then this coach is correct to work for every point. This is how every hockey league I ever played in was run and it meant many 19-1 games, both for and against.
If the total points scored is not a factor then yeah, the coach is a jerk.
posted by Cosine at 10:33 PM on November 24, 2015
If the total points scored is not a factor then yeah, the coach is a jerk.
posted by Cosine at 10:33 PM on November 24, 2015
Yeah, I think the overall answer is the coach was a bit of a jerk, but it wasn't an "outrage". AugustWest describes a good way to handle it, coach to coach -- there's a combined interest, as leaders of a youth league, to teach all of the kids good sportsmanship, which includes both how to win and how to lose gracefully and respectfully. The coaches should act like that is their mutual goal.
Whether or not the coaches are working together on that, though, the teachable moments for the separate teams remain. It's all a part of playing sports. It's valuable to experience loss, even loss like that, and to have the opportunity to put the loss in perspective -- it's just one game, and in any case it's just a sport! It's valuable to play against a better team and to recognize and understand their strengths and your limitations, and use that opportunity to apply the insights in the future.
It's also extremely valuable to show that parents are sympathetic but do not make something like this a big deal, and that they have the proper perspective as well.
posted by odin53 at 2:04 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Whether or not the coaches are working together on that, though, the teachable moments for the separate teams remain. It's all a part of playing sports. It's valuable to experience loss, even loss like that, and to have the opportunity to put the loss in perspective -- it's just one game, and in any case it's just a sport! It's valuable to play against a better team and to recognize and understand their strengths and your limitations, and use that opportunity to apply the insights in the future.
It's also extremely valuable to show that parents are sympathetic but do not make something like this a big deal, and that they have the proper perspective as well.
posted by odin53 at 2:04 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hi, I played basketball for nine years, starting when I was nine years old: youth leagues, junior high team starter, and high school varsity starter my freshman year. I've been on both sides of those blowout games. Here's some things to consider:
-Some kids are just taller and bigger than others. I've been my adult height of 5'10" since I was nine years old, which meant I utterly dominated the key until I was 16 and others finally caught up to my height and size. Sadly, this is just how puberty works. This meant I got a lot more court time than the other players, but it also exhausted me. Tall, big people are not generally endurance athletes, so running is a weakness. Many of my coaches forced me to play as long as possible so that I built up my stamina for high-intensity sprinting, no matter how well my team might have been doing. I suspect that's what the other team's coach was doing to his three tallest players by giving them a rest, then putting them back out in the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter how well or badly your team was doing; those players still need to build stamina.
-I had many coaches, and all of them subscribed to the philosophy that to fail to bring your best game against your opponent was a massive insult, worthy of punishment in the next practice. It's condescending, and a slap in the face. It's seen as contemptuous by many, many people.
-Basketball games do have the potential to reverse course suddenly. I've come back from a 34-point gap and turned it into a 8-point lead and won the game. I've lost games where we were ahead by 20+ points. This is why generally mercy rules don't get invoked past a certain age of player: You cannot be complacent, and you must continue to give the game your full effort. (FWIW, even when I was nine, that was already too old for a mercy rule.)
-To play basketball well, you have to not only score points and keep your opponent from scoring points, but you also have to use every game as an opportunity to develop your skills. Whether it's ball handling, passing, situational awareness, steals, blocks, picks, layups, or three-pointers, if you have the opportunity to get some breathing room with the score, then you work on those skills. The other team's aggressiveness toward your team's guard might have simply been someone working on their defensive skills. All those three-point shots likewise.
-Losing teaches kids how to develop heart and grit. How do you behave when the planets are just not lining up right and you couldn't score if the ghost of Magic Johnson himself picked you up and carried you to the hoop? Because those days will happen a lot in life. Do you keep fighting and giving it your all? Do you learn to develop a sense of humor about it? To resolve to improve? That teaches a kid far more useful things than winning.
-Also, how did the winning team behave toward the losing team after the game? Did they shake hands and exchange 'good game'? Or were they jerks? It's expected that on the court, you'll do your level best to obliterate your opponents; that's fair. But if you're a jerk afterward, well, then that's another story entirely.
Look, I get that it's hard to watch someone you care for go through an experience where things don't turn out well for them. Losing is hard. No one wakes up in the morning and says, 'You know, I'd really like to go out and lose the big game today!' I get it. But the other coach was not being an asshole by having his team continue to give it their all— he was paying a compliment. There's a really important lesson to be learned here about grit and life, if you choose to see it.
posted by culfinglin at 6:32 AM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
-Some kids are just taller and bigger than others. I've been my adult height of 5'10" since I was nine years old, which meant I utterly dominated the key until I was 16 and others finally caught up to my height and size. Sadly, this is just how puberty works. This meant I got a lot more court time than the other players, but it also exhausted me. Tall, big people are not generally endurance athletes, so running is a weakness. Many of my coaches forced me to play as long as possible so that I built up my stamina for high-intensity sprinting, no matter how well my team might have been doing. I suspect that's what the other team's coach was doing to his three tallest players by giving them a rest, then putting them back out in the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter how well or badly your team was doing; those players still need to build stamina.
-I had many coaches, and all of them subscribed to the philosophy that to fail to bring your best game against your opponent was a massive insult, worthy of punishment in the next practice. It's condescending, and a slap in the face. It's seen as contemptuous by many, many people.
-Basketball games do have the potential to reverse course suddenly. I've come back from a 34-point gap and turned it into a 8-point lead and won the game. I've lost games where we were ahead by 20+ points. This is why generally mercy rules don't get invoked past a certain age of player: You cannot be complacent, and you must continue to give the game your full effort. (FWIW, even when I was nine, that was already too old for a mercy rule.)
-To play basketball well, you have to not only score points and keep your opponent from scoring points, but you also have to use every game as an opportunity to develop your skills. Whether it's ball handling, passing, situational awareness, steals, blocks, picks, layups, or three-pointers, if you have the opportunity to get some breathing room with the score, then you work on those skills. The other team's aggressiveness toward your team's guard might have simply been someone working on their defensive skills. All those three-point shots likewise.
-Losing teaches kids how to develop heart and grit. How do you behave when the planets are just not lining up right and you couldn't score if the ghost of Magic Johnson himself picked you up and carried you to the hoop? Because those days will happen a lot in life. Do you keep fighting and giving it your all? Do you learn to develop a sense of humor about it? To resolve to improve? That teaches a kid far more useful things than winning.
-Also, how did the winning team behave toward the losing team after the game? Did they shake hands and exchange 'good game'? Or were they jerks? It's expected that on the court, you'll do your level best to obliterate your opponents; that's fair. But if you're a jerk afterward, well, then that's another story entirely.
Look, I get that it's hard to watch someone you care for go through an experience where things don't turn out well for them. Losing is hard. No one wakes up in the morning and says, 'You know, I'd really like to go out and lose the big game today!' I get it. But the other coach was not being an asshole by having his team continue to give it their all— he was paying a compliment. There's a really important lesson to be learned here about grit and life, if you choose to see it.
posted by culfinglin at 6:32 AM on November 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
I may have been a weird kid, but I always preferred the opponent didn't hold back. At least I could be proud of scoring some points/goals/etc against the better team. You don't even get that if everyone knows the other team "let you" get what you did get.
posted by ctmf at 2:32 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 2:32 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I also played sports as a kid, including girls basketball in middle school (6th grade). I know it was a different time period, but there were absolutely no "mercy rules", and I think we as players would have been outraged whichever side of that we were on. If we were the losers, it really wouldn't have helped to know that the other team not only was winning a lot, which we could blame on luck or whatever, but that they thought they were so much better than us that they could just fuck around and not try hard and act like they weren't even playing basketball. It would have been a grievous insult and I would have hated a team that did that forever. Like it would have instantly started a serious rivalry. And if we were winning, that our coach wanted us to just waste our time out there, not learning anything, not trying, just basically awkwardly dance around just because he thought we were winning too much? I wild have also been upset - because the games are where you learn the most, when you're in competition with people who actually want to defeat you and aren't just practicing.
I think it sounds like you're upset about the loss, and want it to be wrong somehow, but at least in the 90s when I played, this would have been perfectly average, reasonable, and understandable behavior.
posted by corb at 6:40 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think it sounds like you're upset about the loss, and want it to be wrong somehow, but at least in the 90s when I played, this would have been perfectly average, reasonable, and understandable behavior.
posted by corb at 6:40 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: There is a huge difference between "Mercy Rules" and what this guy did. He could have still had his guys work on their offense, he could have rotated his players, worked on fitness. It's really running the full court press designed to create turnovers that is beyond the pale. Even in D-1 pressing teams that are up big in the second half call off the press as it is seen as generally bad form. It also extends the game as it tends to create stoppages in play.
No moving to a running clock, not requiring some number of passes before a shot, not telling his starters their day was done - all mildly jerkish at this level but not an insult. The press is the problem.
posted by JPD at 6:54 AM on November 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
No moving to a running clock, not requiring some number of passes before a shot, not telling his starters their day was done - all mildly jerkish at this level but not an insult. The press is the problem.
posted by JPD at 6:54 AM on November 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's a third opinion that I don't think has come up yet. Most of the answers have focused on the role of sport as a way to teach kids the unwritten rules of being a good person, and what that means in the context of a lopsided contest. There is also the idea of sport as a purely athletic competition - e.g. Barkley's infamous I am not a role model.
Considering all of the great sports role models - including plenty of high school coaches - who turned out to be not such great role models, maybe the idea shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
posted by clawsoon at 4:42 PM on June 19, 2016
Considering all of the great sports role models - including plenty of high school coaches - who turned out to be not such great role models, maybe the idea shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
posted by clawsoon at 4:42 PM on June 19, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
As a high school athlete who was on the single-digit end of spreads like that more than once, rules to prevent huge leads don't do much for morale, in my experience. Customs like the one you describe are *much more* for the benefit of the winning team than the losing.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:02 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]