Coming out in grad school admissions
November 22, 2015 10:37 AM Subscribe
I am applying to full-time MBA programs after 5 years in industry. A major part of my life lately has been coming to terms with my sexual orientation. Would it be appropriate to mention this in essays and interviews? Or do I play it straight?
I (27F) am recently identified as bisexual, and also in a committed poly triad (MFF). I'd like to be open about either/both for a couple reasons:
1. This has been a big part of my life in the past 6 months. I am out only to close friends. I feel like it's a significant step for me to embrace the label(s).
2. I believe as a candidate I can add value as an "out" member of the LGBTQ community.
(I think a lot about bi-erasure, my own privilege as a cis/het-presenting female, and the irony in my own reticence to come out)
Without naming names, I am applying to top programs in places like Boston, Chicago, and the U.K. I assume most are pretty liberal, but MBA programs maybe less so? My resume and scores stand on their own and I don't want to torpedo my application.
So polling the Green:
- Could it be perceived as pandering to admissions officers with D&I quotas to meet? It almost feels squicky, like using my sexual identity to get an "in".
- Is poly too "new" to even mention? Am I going to come across as confused/unstable/hypersexual/fringe?
My partners and I are all conventional career-types and our life has become so normal that I sometimes forget that the rallying cry against gay marriage was "next we'll be legalizing polygamy!!" and that many/most people don't want to hear anything about our alternative lifestyle. (And to an extent I get that; I have no real interest in being some frontier of "poly rights" or whatever. But maybe that's selfish of me.)
This is all new so appreciate any opinions, advice, resources, whatever.
I (27F) am recently identified as bisexual, and also in a committed poly triad (MFF). I'd like to be open about either/both for a couple reasons:
1. This has been a big part of my life in the past 6 months. I am out only to close friends. I feel like it's a significant step for me to embrace the label(s).
2. I believe as a candidate I can add value as an "out" member of the LGBTQ community.
(I think a lot about bi-erasure, my own privilege as a cis/het-presenting female, and the irony in my own reticence to come out)
Without naming names, I am applying to top programs in places like Boston, Chicago, and the U.K. I assume most are pretty liberal, but MBA programs maybe less so? My resume and scores stand on their own and I don't want to torpedo my application.
So polling the Green:
- Could it be perceived as pandering to admissions officers with D&I quotas to meet? It almost feels squicky, like using my sexual identity to get an "in".
- Is poly too "new" to even mention? Am I going to come across as confused/unstable/hypersexual/fringe?
My partners and I are all conventional career-types and our life has become so normal that I sometimes forget that the rallying cry against gay marriage was "next we'll be legalizing polygamy!!" and that many/most people don't want to hear anything about our alternative lifestyle. (And to an extent I get that; I have no real interest in being some frontier of "poly rights" or whatever. But maybe that's selfish of me.)
This is all new so appreciate any opinions, advice, resources, whatever.
It would maybe (huge stretch, very conditionally) make sense, to me, if you were applying to an academic program and your research interests were directly related to your identity, but I think this would be out of place for anything else, especially in apps to MBA programs. As would any other personal issue. They'll mostly be interested in your academics, career, and related accomplishments.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:46 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:46 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's not relevant. Leave it out.
posted by maggiemaggie at 10:51 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 10:51 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I believe that I am sensitive to the issues you mentioned including bi- and poly-invisibility. However, I think application materials are the first impression you will give the schools to which you are applying. If it's something you wouldn't tell someone when you first meet them, maybe this is not the time.
posted by kat518 at 10:52 AM on November 22, 2015
posted by kat518 at 10:52 AM on November 22, 2015
Nobody will care, and you'll come across as really, really not understanding professional boundaries if you make this part of your application. This is a professional program, not an academic program, and your ability to conform to standards of professional behavior (no matter your opinion on those standards) is what matters in this context. As cotton dress sock mentions, this would only maybe be a reasonable time to make your identity and family structure part of the conversation if they were the foundation of your academic interests.
posted by amelioration at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by amelioration at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
I am pro-LGBT, but personally don't think your sex life or orientation should be a part of any kind of application as it doesn't factor into your qualifications as an MBA candidate.
posted by cecic at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cecic at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'm going to give you an answer that you should get used to: it depends.
I think that you could mention that you plan to contribute to the school by leading the school's LGBT Club (called different things at different schools) and call it a day. I think that subtly communicates "hey, I can add to the diversity of the class in this dimension" without getting into the specifics which is none of their business. My MBA program was pretty conservative, and I think you'll find your programs more in that side of the spectrum. This means it will play differently at different programs. Your essays and interviews should be about what you plan to get out of it (why), fit, and how you being there wil make the school a better place. Unless your orientation is directly relevant (you want to specialize in LGBT marketing for example) I wouldn't make a big deal.
Another way to go about this would be to find some alumni or current students to talk to about the specifics of each program. If you can't find good people via your own sleuthing, you can contact a) the LGBT Club leadership or b) the admissions office.
posted by emkelley at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think that you could mention that you plan to contribute to the school by leading the school's LGBT Club (called different things at different schools) and call it a day. I think that subtly communicates "hey, I can add to the diversity of the class in this dimension" without getting into the specifics which is none of their business. My MBA program was pretty conservative, and I think you'll find your programs more in that side of the spectrum. This means it will play differently at different programs. Your essays and interviews should be about what you plan to get out of it (why), fit, and how you being there wil make the school a better place. Unless your orientation is directly relevant (you want to specialize in LGBT marketing for example) I wouldn't make a big deal.
Another way to go about this would be to find some alumni or current students to talk to about the specifics of each program. If you can't find good people via your own sleuthing, you can contact a) the LGBT Club leadership or b) the admissions office.
posted by emkelley at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
What does it have to do with getting your degree? (No sarcasm intended, actually ask yourself this). Grad school applications are not about how you found yourself - if it's not directly relevant, it's out of place.
posted by Aranquis at 10:55 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Aranquis at 10:55 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just to add on, I can see why this would cross your mind as undergrad application essays are chock full of stories of personal discovery and pivotal life moments, but an MBA program is a completely different animal. Think professional rather than personal. Good luck!
posted by cecic at 11:02 AM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by cecic at 11:02 AM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I feel like you're getting a lot of "why would you mention it when it's not directly relevant?" answers from straight people. But you/they can say that about virtually anything and it's one of the classic ways of discouraging people from being out. Being "professonal" doesn't mean not being out, for god's sake.
I'm answering this from the perspective of a queer person who hasn't been to business school. I think this is a case-by-case thing that depends on the question. Harvard is clearly leaving an opening, though I don't know if you should take it (I'm assuming you know how to handle the "first day of business school" scenario better than I). Haas maybe, maybe not. I'm guessing not unless being queer led you to business school (e.g. you work for a queer non-profit). Chicago, I have no idea. (Their question makes me glad I'm not applying and I'm someone who had a lot of fun with their undergrad application.) Anywhere that has an explicit diversity question, yes.
At the risk of sounding harsh, I do think being recently out is clouding your thoughts on the subject and you're possibly sort of in "I have to tell everyone I meet!" mode. In some ways, I think this is a question about more than business school applications, it's about that tricky issue of finding a balance between "being out" and "it's okay not to come out to the guy you say hello to at the bus stop"--where's the line between hiding or shame and the fact that your relationship with some people doesn't actually extend beyond the completely superficial?
posted by hoyland at 11:17 AM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm answering this from the perspective of a queer person who hasn't been to business school. I think this is a case-by-case thing that depends on the question. Harvard is clearly leaving an opening, though I don't know if you should take it (I'm assuming you know how to handle the "first day of business school" scenario better than I). Haas maybe, maybe not. I'm guessing not unless being queer led you to business school (e.g. you work for a queer non-profit). Chicago, I have no idea. (Their question makes me glad I'm not applying and I'm someone who had a lot of fun with their undergrad application.) Anywhere that has an explicit diversity question, yes.
At the risk of sounding harsh, I do think being recently out is clouding your thoughts on the subject and you're possibly sort of in "I have to tell everyone I meet!" mode. In some ways, I think this is a question about more than business school applications, it's about that tricky issue of finding a balance between "being out" and "it's okay not to come out to the guy you say hello to at the bus stop"--where's the line between hiding or shame and the fact that your relationship with some people doesn't actually extend beyond the completely superficial?
posted by hoyland at 11:17 AM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
If you disclose, you are putting the people evaluating your application in an awkward situation. In all likelihood they are not allowed to discriminate against anyone based on sexual orientation, marital status or any other irrelevant personal information (and that likely includes positive discrimination). It is therefore much, much easier for people in this situation if they do not know any of that information in the first place. Seriously, it's the last thing they want or need.
Respect the position they are in and leave it out.
posted by deadwax at 11:22 AM on November 22, 2015
Respect the position they are in and leave it out.
posted by deadwax at 11:22 AM on November 22, 2015
I don't think this is about respecting the application committee-- making someone else uncomfortable because you're gay is not really your problem. I mean, if you had relevant work experience that strongly implied you were gay, you wouldn't leave it out to spare them the legal question.
On the other hand, if you wouldn't put it in a job application, I wouldn't necessarily include it here. I think you could benefit from having a career office read over your application-- they might have good advice on this (it might not be sensitive advice but it may unfortunately reflect the feelings of admissions committees). If contributing to LGBTQ stuff on campus is relevant, maybe it should go in. But I'd err on the side of not, since in general they don't want to hear about anything that relates to your personality/identity, just your work. If it touches your work, then yes.
posted by easter queen at 11:25 AM on November 22, 2015
On the other hand, if you wouldn't put it in a job application, I wouldn't necessarily include it here. I think you could benefit from having a career office read over your application-- they might have good advice on this (it might not be sensitive advice but it may unfortunately reflect the feelings of admissions committees). If contributing to LGBTQ stuff on campus is relevant, maybe it should go in. But I'd err on the side of not, since in general they don't want to hear about anything that relates to your personality/identity, just your work. If it touches your work, then yes.
posted by easter queen at 11:25 AM on November 22, 2015
I think you can be out in your program without discussing this in your application. It would be inappropriate to discuss this in a job application, so I wouldn't include it in your program application. I wouldn't avoid referring to it if it's relevant to something professional you are discussing, or remove anything from your resume that suggests you are LGBTQ, either.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:27 AM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 11:27 AM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
In my experience, academic institutions care about increasing the types of diversity that federal granting agencies are interested in. Sexual orientation is not one of those categories.
posted by yarntheory at 11:29 AM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by yarntheory at 11:29 AM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
But you/they can say that about virtually anything
Yes, and people do tend to say that about virtually anything that's not related to the program content or intended research (e.g. health status/abilities, class background, etc.).
People have described ways to signal identity outside of the main application (e.g. listing volunteer or paid work with related organizations on resume), and there are some places where that's explicitly asked for (i.e. diversity questionnaire), but the application itself isn't typically the place for it.
I don't think anyone's said "act straight" (whatever that means) when you meet people at interviews etc.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:39 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, and people do tend to say that about virtually anything that's not related to the program content or intended research (e.g. health status/abilities, class background, etc.).
People have described ways to signal identity outside of the main application (e.g. listing volunteer or paid work with related organizations on resume), and there are some places where that's explicitly asked for (i.e. diversity questionnaire), but the application itself isn't typically the place for it.
I don't think anyone's said "act straight" (whatever that means) when you meet people at interviews etc.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:39 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you were in a deeply committed but traditional heterosexual relationship and felt that to be a defining part of "you" and why you are their ideal candidate, would you feel that is appropriate to include?
posted by samthemander at 11:41 AM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by samthemander at 11:41 AM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes, I don't think this is a 'deception by omission' situation. If they don't ask, it's because it's not really relevant and I can't imagine why it would be. By all means, be you. If it comes up in friendly conversation, you don't have to avoid the subject. You don't have to act straight. It's just not something you put on an application or bring up intentionally in an interview.
posted by ctmf at 11:44 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 11:44 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
If sexual orientation isn't clearly relevant to the MBA program in question, then don't mention it: it is no more a part of the program than if someone were to specifiy that they were straight or anything else.
If it was a degree that had a connection to sexuality --- say if you were going for a degree to become a social worker specializing in LBGT issues --- then it might make sense to include a brief mention as part of "why I'm interested in these issues" statement, for instance. But for an MBA? No: it's not connected to the MBA degree, and it's none of their concern anyway.
posted by easily confused at 12:06 PM on November 22, 2015
If it was a degree that had a connection to sexuality --- say if you were going for a degree to become a social worker specializing in LBGT issues --- then it might make sense to include a brief mention as part of "why I'm interested in these issues" statement, for instance. But for an MBA? No: it's not connected to the MBA degree, and it's none of their concern anyway.
posted by easily confused at 12:06 PM on November 22, 2015
Best answer: I am a queer + poly academic whose work is in the field of queer theory, and I say don't disclose unless they ask directly (which they shouldn't, unless it's in a diversity form that's not linked to your specific application). Do, as others have said, talk about any relevant work or volunteer experience--but even in so-called diversity statements, I talk about queer leadership positions and mentoring queer students and teaching queer studies, and not about my own queerness. This is partly because I object to the idea that these things matter to me only because of my own identity, but also because my experience in the queer community and my education in my field are a lot more relevant to my work than my personal life is.
It's also, more broadly, not a great idea to talk about partners in contexts like this, since a partner with a non-portable career might suggest that you're less likely to accept an offer of admission. Two partners is going to make that seem even less likely, since that means you have yet another person who needs to find employment in the area!
posted by dizziest at 12:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's also, more broadly, not a great idea to talk about partners in contexts like this, since a partner with a non-portable career might suggest that you're less likely to accept an offer of admission. Two partners is going to make that seem even less likely, since that means you have yet another person who needs to find employment in the area!
posted by dizziest at 12:22 PM on November 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I'm queer/lesbian and have been known to come out in job interviews if it comes up, because I value working in environments where I don't have to play the pronoun game when talking over lunch about what I did on the weekend with my partner. But when I applied to grad school, I didn't mention my orientation; if there had been a diversity statement or a question on the application, I would absolutely have answered, but there wasn't. That doesn't mean I'm not out at school, though. I've mentioned my perspective when it's been relevant in class discussions, I've brought my partner to school gatherings, etc.
I agree with those above commenting that this isn't relevant to your applications unless you're being specifically asked, but I don't think that you should feel like you're hiding something if you don't mention it. There'll be plenty of opportunities to be out once you're in school.
posted by snorkmaiden at 12:51 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree with those above commenting that this isn't relevant to your applications unless you're being specifically asked, but I don't think that you should feel like you're hiding something if you don't mention it. There'll be plenty of opportunities to be out once you're in school.
posted by snorkmaiden at 12:51 PM on November 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is about as relevant to an MBA application as the number of cats you own.
posted by deadweightloss at 12:57 PM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by deadweightloss at 12:57 PM on November 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I feel like you're getting a lot of "why would you mention it when it's not directly relevant?" answers from straight people. But you/they can say that about virtually anything and it's one of the classic ways of discouraging people from being out. Being "professonal" doesn't mean not being out, for god's sake.
For whatever it's worth, since I am one of the people who told you it isn't relevant to your application: I'm a bi woman with an academic background who is out in her professional workplace. I understand (and share) your concerns about invisibility, which is a big part of why I am, and have always been, out. I would encourage you to be out when visiting programs, to learn about the queer community in the program, etc. But I stand by my statement that it just isn't relevant to your application materials, and sharing in that way will come across as a misreading of the cultural norms.
posted by amelioration at 1:38 PM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
For whatever it's worth, since I am one of the people who told you it isn't relevant to your application: I'm a bi woman with an academic background who is out in her professional workplace. I understand (and share) your concerns about invisibility, which is a big part of why I am, and have always been, out. I would encourage you to be out when visiting programs, to learn about the queer community in the program, etc. But I stand by my statement that it just isn't relevant to your application materials, and sharing in that way will come across as a misreading of the cultural norms.
posted by amelioration at 1:38 PM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'm going to give you an answer that you should get used to: it depends.
I wish I could draw hearts and stars around this.
My qualifications: I'm pansexual and married to another woman, we're poly, I'm an academic in the social sciences, I'm out about both at work (the worst reaction I've ever gotten re: poly is "Isn't that kind of complicated?" And I'm below the Mason-Dixon line. It can be done! I am also very lucky.)
However, I would not directly out myself in the applications unless the narrative leads to it; in other words, depending on what the prompt for the personal statement asks, it may be exceedingly awkward to work your sexuality and partners in there, and you don't want to do that - because then that shows that you don't follow directions, and you know where that's going to get your application. But if there is a diversity statement section and the narrative allows for it, go for it. In other words, what you write is going to depend on each school and its prompt; you're going to have a different version for each school.
The advice about signaling in your app with volunteer or work activities is great, too.
Do the programs you're applying to require interviews? Interviews are a great place to talk about this kind of stuff, because remember, you're interviewing them as much as they are you. So the interview is a good place to talk about your partners as it comes up naturally in conversation and see how folks react, so you can make sure this is a place you want to spend the next two or more years of your life.
(Our last hire straight up just asked during the interview, "How is University and City for gay people?" and talked about his now husband as it came up. One of my coworkers was like "I didn't really know how to answer - why would he ask that?" "Because he needs to know he can go to dinner with his dude and not fear for their safety?" "Oh! I'd never thought about that." "For the love of... just send him to talk to me again before he gets out of here, please?" Bless. her. heart.)
posted by joycehealy at 7:38 PM on November 22, 2015
I wish I could draw hearts and stars around this.
My qualifications: I'm pansexual and married to another woman, we're poly, I'm an academic in the social sciences, I'm out about both at work (the worst reaction I've ever gotten re: poly is "Isn't that kind of complicated?" And I'm below the Mason-Dixon line. It can be done! I am also very lucky.)
However, I would not directly out myself in the applications unless the narrative leads to it; in other words, depending on what the prompt for the personal statement asks, it may be exceedingly awkward to work your sexuality and partners in there, and you don't want to do that - because then that shows that you don't follow directions, and you know where that's going to get your application. But if there is a diversity statement section and the narrative allows for it, go for it. In other words, what you write is going to depend on each school and its prompt; you're going to have a different version for each school.
The advice about signaling in your app with volunteer or work activities is great, too.
Do the programs you're applying to require interviews? Interviews are a great place to talk about this kind of stuff, because remember, you're interviewing them as much as they are you. So the interview is a good place to talk about your partners as it comes up naturally in conversation and see how folks react, so you can make sure this is a place you want to spend the next two or more years of your life.
(Our last hire straight up just asked during the interview, "How is University and City for gay people?" and talked about his now husband as it came up. One of my coworkers was like "I didn't really know how to answer - why would he ask that?" "Because he needs to know he can go to dinner with his dude and not fear for their safety?" "Oh! I'd never thought about that." "For the love of... just send him to talk to me again before he gets out of here, please?" Bless. her. heart.)
posted by joycehealy at 7:38 PM on November 22, 2015
Response by poster: I appreciate the diversity of answers here and I think it reflects the types of reactions I am likely to get from admissions folks. So thanks all.
Many have made comments that this has no place in an application (which is what I would have assumed too) so it's worth noting that many of these applications specifically ask about orientation/identity (e.g. "do you identify... Y/N") and many essay prompts include statements about diversity (take a look at Booth's, for example.)
I will play it conservatively and take the advice to leverage on-campus LGBT+ organizations, and possibly interviews, to feel out the environment at different programs. I recognize that poly, specifically, is very loaded and will avoid bringing that up.
posted by ista at 6:00 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Many have made comments that this has no place in an application (which is what I would have assumed too) so it's worth noting that many of these applications specifically ask about orientation/identity (e.g. "do you identify... Y/N") and many essay prompts include statements about diversity (take a look at Booth's, for example.)
I will play it conservatively and take the advice to leverage on-campus LGBT+ organizations, and possibly interviews, to feel out the environment at different programs. I recognize that poly, specifically, is very loaded and will avoid bringing that up.
posted by ista at 6:00 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Also: if anybody is genuinely curious why a B-school or company would/should care about this, I encourage reading up on the business case for diversity. internet fraud detective squad, station number 9's comment is basically spot-on.
posted by ista at 6:07 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by ista at 6:07 AM on November 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
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Allow them to do so. Do not mention your orientation at all.
posted by paulcole at 10:45 AM on November 22, 2015 [12 favorites]