Doom?
November 21, 2015 8:27 PM Subscribe
Why is Doctor Doom the greatest Marvel villain?
I mainly read DC and I don't care about spoilers. What's with the Doom love?
I mainly read DC and I don't care about spoilers. What's with the Doom love?
I think the contention is arguable, but I would say that Doom pops up in multiple franchises; moreso than say, Apocalypse etc. Though associated with Fantastic Four, he's not joined with a particular super hero like Doc Octopus and Spiderman, for example. Off the top of my head, he's been centrally involved in plots with Spider Man, the X men, Fantastic Four, Silver Surfer, and I think Captain America.
He's one of the few silver age villains that maintains some dignity, as well, imho.
posted by smoke at 8:58 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's one of the few silver age villains that maintains some dignity, as well, imho.
posted by smoke at 8:58 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
One reason is that he is deeply noble. Evil? Perhaps. Ambitious? unquestionably. But he has a sense of honor, too. At one point in the canon, all the people in Namor's kingdom were stuck in some kind of stasis. Namor tried to get Mr. Fantastic to cure them but he couldn't. Eventually Dr. Doom took care of it.
That makes him deeply ambiguous as a villain. A really good villain has to be powerful, and arrogant, and aggressive, but he should also be a bit seductive. Deep down you should find yourself rooting for him, a little. And when he gets defeated, you're glad he lost, but you're also just a bit sorry.. That's how it is with Dr. Doom.
The people of Latveria actually do love him as their king. They fear him as well, but it's not fear that keeps them loyal; the feeling is genuine. That's because he really is a good monarch and the kingdom has prospered under his rule.
He doesn't do that because he loves his people. He does it because of his sense of honor. Being king means trying to rule well, so he rules well. Anything else would be dishonorable.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 10:08 PM on November 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
That makes him deeply ambiguous as a villain. A really good villain has to be powerful, and arrogant, and aggressive, but he should also be a bit seductive. Deep down you should find yourself rooting for him, a little. And when he gets defeated, you're glad he lost, but you're also just a bit sorry.. That's how it is with Dr. Doom.
The people of Latveria actually do love him as their king. They fear him as well, but it's not fear that keeps them loyal; the feeling is genuine. That's because he really is a good monarch and the kingdom has prospered under his rule.
He doesn't do that because he loves his people. He does it because of his sense of honor. Being king means trying to rule well, so he rules well. Anything else would be dishonorable.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 10:08 PM on November 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Doom doesn't desire power for the sake of power; he wants to rule the world because he is honestly convinced that he is the only person qualified for the job. He is brilliant enough that whether or not he's wrong about that is an open question. He doesn't so much want to grind the world under his boot heel as much as pin its arms back so it stops hitting itself. This is not to say he is particularly altruistic; he's just fed up with society's stupidity.
posted by jordemort at 10:11 PM on November 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by jordemort at 10:11 PM on November 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Here is a good description of why Doom is a great villain, as written by a former Marvel guy in service of a post about business lessons you can learn from him.
posted by ejs at 10:39 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ejs at 10:39 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
For an explanation in song: Dr. Doom, Tuscadero, 1998.
posted by asperity at 10:58 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by asperity at 10:58 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because when he's written well, he's one of the deepest villains out there, and has a really wide range of versatility.
At his best, he's a tragic villain, one whose incredible, arrogant drive is in the service of freeing his mother from an unjust imprisonment in Hell. But from that motivation, he becomes an incredibly cruel totalitarian dictator.
It's a failed redemption narrative, combined with his iconic mask and endless inventiveness. One thing that separates him from a bunch of the grimdark villains that followed is that he's rarely sadistic in the way, say, Venom or Carnage is. He's just ruthless in pursuit of a nominally noble goal. That makes him a really rich source as an antagonist, because the heroes (and readers) should be able to empathize with that.
posted by klangklangston at 11:08 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
At his best, he's a tragic villain, one whose incredible, arrogant drive is in the service of freeing his mother from an unjust imprisonment in Hell. But from that motivation, he becomes an incredibly cruel totalitarian dictator.
It's a failed redemption narrative, combined with his iconic mask and endless inventiveness. One thing that separates him from a bunch of the grimdark villains that followed is that he's rarely sadistic in the way, say, Venom or Carnage is. He's just ruthless in pursuit of a nominally noble goal. That makes him a really rich source as an antagonist, because the heroes (and readers) should be able to empathize with that.
posted by klangklangston at 11:08 PM on November 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the answers so far cover lots of good aspects of what makes Doom unique as a villain. One thing I would suggest, since the OP mentions reading DC... Doom doesn't have a clear DC comics/other fiction analogue. If you think of the classic, foundational Marvel villains, the list would probably be Dr. Doom, Magneto, the Green Goblin, the Red Skull, Loki and Ultron. In the next, very close, tier you would have: Dr. Octopus, Kang the Conqueror, the Mandarin and the Leader. DC's foundational villains would be the Joker, Lex Luthor, Captain Cold, Cheetah and Sinestro. The next tier would be whoever is next in line as a villain to Batman (Two-Face), Superman (Brainiac), Flash (Grodd), Wonder Woman (Ares? Giganta? Silver Swan?), and the Green Lantern (Sonar? Dr Polaris?).
Maybe it says something about Marvel's 60s-era, counter-cultural roots, but many of the villains mirror dictators or out-of-control authorities, while DC's villains tended to be more antitheses of the heroes themselves. I would argue that Dr. Doom in particular does not have a DC analogue, while characters like the Green Goblin line up with the Joker, or Ultron is parallel to some incarnations of Brainiac.
Lastly, although it's hard to remember now, Fantastic Four was the family that built Marvel. There used to be more editorial reverence for the team and its legacy. As such, Doom's combination of ability in science and magic, supported by his highly advanced intellect, allowed him to usurp even the most powerful in-universe characters. I remember as a kid thinking "Wow! The Beyonder is more powerful than anything previously thought possible!" and then Doom stole his powers!
The most powerful characters in a comic (or other fictional) universe are... the writers. Doom seems to still occupy a place close to editorial's heart because of his role as the first villain of "The First Family" of Marvel, so he is allowed all manner of narrative one-upmanship which builds his renown.
posted by Slothrop at 4:51 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Maybe it says something about Marvel's 60s-era, counter-cultural roots, but many of the villains mirror dictators or out-of-control authorities, while DC's villains tended to be more antitheses of the heroes themselves. I would argue that Dr. Doom in particular does not have a DC analogue, while characters like the Green Goblin line up with the Joker, or Ultron is parallel to some incarnations of Brainiac.
Lastly, although it's hard to remember now, Fantastic Four was the family that built Marvel. There used to be more editorial reverence for the team and its legacy. As such, Doom's combination of ability in science and magic, supported by his highly advanced intellect, allowed him to usurp even the most powerful in-universe characters. I remember as a kid thinking "Wow! The Beyonder is more powerful than anything previously thought possible!" and then Doom stole his powers!
The most powerful characters in a comic (or other fictional) universe are... the writers. Doom seems to still occupy a place close to editorial's heart because of his role as the first villain of "The First Family" of Marvel, so he is allowed all manner of narrative one-upmanship which builds his renown.
posted by Slothrop at 4:51 AM on November 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ask Chris: Why is Doctor Doom the gold standard of supervillains?
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:16 AM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:16 AM on November 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
To me, he has a clear DC analogue in Lex Luthor. Lex and Clark Kent were in school together, when Superboy did something in the lab which caused a chemical splash that destroyed Luthor's hair. Doom and Reed Richards were also in school together, right? They were chums, like I've heard Robert Heinlein and L.Ron Hubbard were. L.Ron complained to Heinlein about writing science fiction: "This penny-a-word stuff is bullshit, if you want to make some real money, you have to start your own religion." And he did. But doesn't Doom also bear some deep, long-ago grudge against Reed? His power suit's definitely way more cool than Tony Stark's.
posted by Rash at 8:13 AM on November 22, 2015
posted by Rash at 8:13 AM on November 22, 2015
The best heroes are identification figures (you feel just like the sad sack Peter Parker and identify with his goals and flaws), while the best villains are aspirational figures (you want to have your own country and unstoppable robot army).
Note that there's lots of fluctuation on that spectrum, you can still see it if you look hard. Superman sure is an aspirational hero, but Clark Kent is the nebbish identification figure. Bruce Wayne is both Batman and a billionaire playboy. But his parents are dead.
Doom is a rather pure aspirational villain. Doom doesn't even ever lose his fights, so much as merely see his agenda get side-tracked. And he's not an unattainable God-like figure, either. Still pretty much just a dude that works really hard. He's Batman + Iron Man, minus the character flaws (megalomania isn't much of a flaw). And he didn't inherit his money...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:21 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Note that there's lots of fluctuation on that spectrum, you can still see it if you look hard. Superman sure is an aspirational hero, but Clark Kent is the nebbish identification figure. Bruce Wayne is both Batman and a billionaire playboy. But his parents are dead.
Doom is a rather pure aspirational villain. Doom doesn't even ever lose his fights, so much as merely see his agenda get side-tracked. And he's not an unattainable God-like figure, either. Still pretty much just a dude that works really hard. He's Batman + Iron Man, minus the character flaws (megalomania isn't much of a flaw). And he didn't inherit his money...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:21 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here's why I love Doom.
Doom wants a better world for everyone. He knows, really and truly knows, that he's the only person who can bring about the best possible world. He's had confirmation from a god that he's right; there's only one way to make a world without hate and evil and pain, and that's with Doom running the show. And yet some God damned superheroes are always fucking with his shit.
Doom wants to make the world's best omelette, and every superhero he encounters is terrified of breaking an egg.
posted by Sternmeyer at 8:39 AM on November 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Doom wants a better world for everyone. He knows, really and truly knows, that he's the only person who can bring about the best possible world. He's had confirmation from a god that he's right; there's only one way to make a world without hate and evil and pain, and that's with Doom running the show. And yet some God damned superheroes are always fucking with his shit.
Doom wants to make the world's best omelette, and every superhero he encounters is terrified of breaking an egg.
posted by Sternmeyer at 8:39 AM on November 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
He's one of the few silver age villains that maintains some dignity
Because his shtick still has kick. Most Silver Age villains come off as gimmicky because they're defined by their adherence to an extremely limited theme or weapon set. (e.g., Paste Pot Pete uses glue as a weapon!!! Turner D. Century is pathologically nostalgic for the McKinley administration!!! Watch out, Spider-Man!)
And then there's Doom, whose shtick is that he acts like a pseudo-Gothic Byronic antihero. In a sense, this is also a gimmick because he plays it so literally (lives in a crumbling Romantic castle; constantly wears plate armor; rules a quaint German microstate where everyone dresses like it's 1815; has the actual surname of "von Doom"). But at the same time, he's plugged into the literary archetype that produced Frankenstein (the doctor and the monster), Edward Rochester, Heathcliff, and Dracula. Doom's shtick defines him, but it empowers instead of limiting.
posted by Iridic at 9:11 AM on November 22, 2015
Because his shtick still has kick. Most Silver Age villains come off as gimmicky because they're defined by their adherence to an extremely limited theme or weapon set. (e.g., Paste Pot Pete uses glue as a weapon!!! Turner D. Century is pathologically nostalgic for the McKinley administration!!! Watch out, Spider-Man!)
And then there's Doom, whose shtick is that he acts like a pseudo-Gothic Byronic antihero. In a sense, this is also a gimmick because he plays it so literally (lives in a crumbling Romantic castle; constantly wears plate armor; rules a quaint German microstate where everyone dresses like it's 1815; has the actual surname of "von Doom"). But at the same time, he's plugged into the literary archetype that produced Frankenstein (the doctor and the monster), Edward Rochester, Heathcliff, and Dracula. Doom's shtick defines him, but it empowers instead of limiting.
posted by Iridic at 9:11 AM on November 22, 2015
Rash - those are some good Luthor/Doom parallels that I hadn't thought of.
posted by Slothrop at 9:35 AM on November 22, 2015
posted by Slothrop at 9:35 AM on November 22, 2015
Dr. Doom is probably one of my favorite comic characters (not just villains) hands down, and in addition to what others have said here, his obsession with perfection and his super intelligence makes him extremely tragic. His hatred for humanity's imperfection is almost a love in some ways i.e. "If you'd only listen to me you'd all prosper!"If you read his entire back story you can see a glimpse of his humanity that he has tossed away due to this obsession, and the sort of pain it brings him. Hell, Doom also has instances where he hates himself for his own flaws as a human despite his arrogance. I always tend to read him as a character that is extremely misunderstood in that regard, as others have said, he doesn't seem to be driven by malice.
posted by Young Kullervo at 11:20 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Young Kullervo at 11:20 AM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
"To me, he has a clear DC analogue in Lex Luthor. Lex and Clark Kent were in school together, when Superboy did something in the lab which caused a chemical splash that destroyed Luthor's hair. Doom and Reed Richards were also in school together, right? They were chums, like I've heard Robert Heinlein and L.Ron Hubbard were. L.Ron complained to Heinlein about writing science fiction: "This penny-a-word stuff is bullshit, if you want to make some real money, you have to start your own religion." And he did. But doesn't Doom also bear some deep, long-ago grudge against Reed? His power suit's definitely way more cool than Tony Stark's."
Except that Luther's driven by an inferiority complex and a rather banal desire for more and more power — more like a Norman Osborn in his H.A.M.M.E.R. days. Luthor's probably the closest to Doom, but he doesn't have anywhere near the richness that Doom can bring — Luther always reads like a petty genius, more oppositional than independent.
For a DC fan, Doom might be best understood as a hybrid of Darkseid and Luthor.
posted by klangklangston at 3:08 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Except that Luther's driven by an inferiority complex and a rather banal desire for more and more power — more like a Norman Osborn in his H.A.M.M.E.R. days. Luthor's probably the closest to Doom, but he doesn't have anywhere near the richness that Doom can bring — Luther always reads like a petty genius, more oppositional than independent.
For a DC fan, Doom might be best understood as a hybrid of Darkseid and Luthor.
posted by klangklangston at 3:08 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
klang - The Darkseid parallel works, too, because Kirby imbued both characters with a crumbling Gothic aesthetic, particularly in environments and lackeys. Latveria itself is nicer than Apokolips, but in Kirby's Fourth World, I feel like Darkseid is often depicted as inhabiting a crumbling stone castle that also happens to have gee whiz tech interspersed throughout. The foppish Apokoliptian assassin Kanto wouldn't be out of place as a servant of Doom, either.
posted by Slothrop at 3:14 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Slothrop at 3:14 PM on November 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that both Doom and Darkseid are Kirby kids makes that particular through-line a lot more obvious.
Dr. Doom = (Lex Luthor + Darkseid) - Thanos.
posted by klangklangston at 12:58 PM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Dr. Doom = (Lex Luthor + Darkseid) - Thanos.
posted by klangklangston at 12:58 PM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by No-sword at 8:37 PM on November 21, 2015 [13 favorites]