Renovation in NYC
November 15, 2015 11:57 AM Subscribe
My wife and I are considering buying a place that requires a kitchen and bath renovation in Park Slope, Brooklyn. Our real estate agent is suggesting we get an architect or contractor to come in, take a look, and give us an estimate before we even put in an offer. A couple questions: (i) is this necessary? We've done some research online and have a good general idea of how much kitchen and bathroom renovations cost - or I am I wrong and we really need a individualized estimate?; (ii) we don't have any friends who are architects/contractors - how would we go about finding one to come by a place we haven't even put an offer in on yet and give us an estimate?; (iii) assuming we go forward, with or without getting an estimate up front, how do we find a good architect and/or contractor - and do we need both?
Any answers, suggestions, resources, etc. would be greatly appreciated - thanks!
> is this necessary? We've done some research online and have a good general idea of how much kitchen and bathroom renovations cost
I've found that online estimates and research aren't always helpful because there's a million things that go into a calculation, such as local market rates, skill of your architect/contractor, costs of the materials you want to put in (and finding purveyors for those materials), and all the little minutiae and challenges of your house's layout and architecture. That being said, I don't think an individualized estimate is all that helpful except in very specific scenarios.
I'd say you need an individualized estimate if - 1) kitchen/bathroom renovation is absolutely essential and must be done immediately after purchase and 2) you have budget constraints such that there is a strict dollar amount set aside for the renovation that you absolutely cannot exceed (whereupon you would simply prefer to buy a place that doesn't need those types of renovations). If say, you can stomach paying double the upper bound of the online estimate, then I think you can get by in this scenario without an individualized estimate.
If you're in a situation where you can live with the state of the kitchen and bathroom for a while and take your time to plan and find a contractor/architect you feel comfortable with, I think getting the estimate is less important.
The reality is that you're only really going to get a true sense of costs after you own the house and start the planning, as you may need to open walls and get into spaces that only an owner of the home can do.
posted by Karaage at 12:11 PM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've found that online estimates and research aren't always helpful because there's a million things that go into a calculation, such as local market rates, skill of your architect/contractor, costs of the materials you want to put in (and finding purveyors for those materials), and all the little minutiae and challenges of your house's layout and architecture. That being said, I don't think an individualized estimate is all that helpful except in very specific scenarios.
I'd say you need an individualized estimate if - 1) kitchen/bathroom renovation is absolutely essential and must be done immediately after purchase and 2) you have budget constraints such that there is a strict dollar amount set aside for the renovation that you absolutely cannot exceed (whereupon you would simply prefer to buy a place that doesn't need those types of renovations). If say, you can stomach paying double the upper bound of the online estimate, then I think you can get by in this scenario without an individualized estimate.
If you're in a situation where you can live with the state of the kitchen and bathroom for a while and take your time to plan and find a contractor/architect you feel comfortable with, I think getting the estimate is less important.
The reality is that you're only really going to get a true sense of costs after you own the house and start the planning, as you may need to open walls and get into spaces that only an owner of the home can do.
posted by Karaage at 12:11 PM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the initial responses everyone, and I will follow up via memail as appropriate. A few more details in response to questions:
(i) it's a coop in a larger, pre-war building;
(ii) the renovation is not necessary in the sense that we couldn't live there now, it's more that the kitchen and bathrooms are very dated and we'd want to renovate them as soon as possible - ideally before we even moved in just in the interest of efficiency (I'm told it's not really a good idea to live in a place during major renovations);
(iii) I haven't inquired as to the building's rules re renovations - that's a great idea and I'll do so;
(iv) no fixed budget exactly, other than the cost might impact how much we're willing to offer for the place - but I think our conservative estimate is ok.
posted by slide at 12:22 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
(i) it's a coop in a larger, pre-war building;
(ii) the renovation is not necessary in the sense that we couldn't live there now, it's more that the kitchen and bathrooms are very dated and we'd want to renovate them as soon as possible - ideally before we even moved in just in the interest of efficiency (I'm told it's not really a good idea to live in a place during major renovations);
(iii) I haven't inquired as to the building's rules re renovations - that's a great idea and I'll do so;
(iv) no fixed budget exactly, other than the cost might impact how much we're willing to offer for the place - but I think our conservative estimate is ok.
posted by slide at 12:22 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Franklin Report is a Zagat for services like these.
posted by brujita at 12:24 PM on November 15, 2015
posted by brujita at 12:24 PM on November 15, 2015
Definitely check with the co-op board regarding their rules--a lot of them have very specific regulations about what you can and can't do (you might not be able to install a dishwasher or a garbage disposal if they're not already there, for instance, due to the load on the building's plumbing) and what hours workers can be in the building, etc. The board may have an approved list of architects and contractors. You may end up needing an architect, but a contractor should be able to give you a ballpark estimate on the work.
Make sure whatever online references you're using to get a ballpark figure on the renovations are specifically for NYC. Like everything else, remodeling costs 3x as much in NYC as it does anywhere else in the country.
If you'd prefer to do renovations before even moving in, you should line up a contractor now anyway. You may find that contractors are more amenable to the idea of coming out to give you a ballpark estimate if you phrase your inquiry as "We're planning to buy this co-op and we want to get an idea of how much the changes we're envisioning will cost".
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 1:11 PM on November 15, 2015
Make sure whatever online references you're using to get a ballpark figure on the renovations are specifically for NYC. Like everything else, remodeling costs 3x as much in NYC as it does anywhere else in the country.
If you'd prefer to do renovations before even moving in, you should line up a contractor now anyway. You may find that contractors are more amenable to the idea of coming out to give you a ballpark estimate if you phrase your inquiry as "We're planning to buy this co-op and we want to get an idea of how much the changes we're envisioning will cost".
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 1:11 PM on November 15, 2015
Your conservative estimate is only okay if it is double what you think it will be. Contractors in Brooklyn, the only cheap way to do it is to "know a guy" and REALLY know them and the quality of their work.
posted by rikschell at 1:18 PM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 1:18 PM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
If your realtor has represented sales in the building, chances are she has former clients who have done renovations -- that's a good place to start for references.
Construction overhead and labor costs in co-ops can be excruciatingly high to comply with building rules, which can limit work hours and days (and even months!) severely, require union tradesmen for many kinds of jobs, etc.
If you truly can't get someone in there, I'd budget $125k for a bare-bones job and $200k for a nice job (high-end appliances, hardware, finishes and tile).
posted by MattD at 1:41 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Construction overhead and labor costs in co-ops can be excruciatingly high to comply with building rules, which can limit work hours and days (and even months!) severely, require union tradesmen for many kinds of jobs, etc.
If you truly can't get someone in there, I'd budget $125k for a bare-bones job and $200k for a nice job (high-end appliances, hardware, finishes and tile).
posted by MattD at 1:41 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Co-ops can also be VERY touchy about anything that sounds of expansion. Transforming "dry" areas to "wet" or carpet-covered or rug-covered to tiled or hardwood may be prohibited. Putting in a modern restaurant style style stove-top may fail either because they don't want the stress on the natural gas pressure or won't let you put in the needed added ventilation. Steam showers, steam ovens, another sink for the new island you're going to put in, a water supply for a fridge with an icemaker and water spout where the old fridge lacked them? All subject to review and (dis)approval. I don't know enough about them to know how they draw power but it wouldn't surprise me if induction stovetops are scrutinized for burden on the electric system...
posted by MattD at 1:49 PM on November 15, 2015
posted by MattD at 1:49 PM on November 15, 2015
Response by poster: Ha! I appreciate the advice. I had been budgeting $100k as conservative for good quality - not high, high end. $125k for bare bones? Ye gods... I think I should get a contractor in there.
We don't plan to add anything that's not already there or (currently) move anything. Stove, fridge, dishwasher will all stay in place just be upgraded. Only thing we're thinking of changing is moving the washer/dryer to the shower stall in the bathroom that is directly behind it.
posted by slide at 2:11 PM on November 15, 2015
We don't plan to add anything that's not already there or (currently) move anything. Stove, fridge, dishwasher will all stay in place just be upgraded. Only thing we're thinking of changing is moving the washer/dryer to the shower stall in the bathroom that is directly behind it.
posted by slide at 2:11 PM on November 15, 2015
I would think that an estimate before you buy, in consideration of a possible or even likely purchase, is more likely to be un-self-interested (on the part of the contractor doing the estimate) than one post-purchase. It might be worth it for that alone.
posted by Salamandrous at 2:40 PM on November 15, 2015
posted by Salamandrous at 2:40 PM on November 15, 2015
Best answer: - Seconding that the coop might already have their own internal architect, or a contractor that previous tenants have used.
- What's your desired level of finish? Are you taking good-quality, or higher-end marble countertops?
- What's your time commitment? For example, are you willing to pick out every single finish and item and give detailed specifications to a contractor? (ex: white glossy finish 3"x6" Nemo subway tiles, tiled in a herringbone pattern, with dark charcoal sanded grout) Or do you have vague/general ideas of what you want, and want someone to take on the job of finding cost-effective versions of the look that you're interested in? In which case, you're better off hiring an architect.
- MeMail me and I'll refer you to some contractors I've worked with, who would be happy to do a walkthrough. However, without drawings or detailed direction, they'd probably only be able to do a per square foot ballpark. Kitchens and bathrooms probably start at $200/sqft and way upwards in NYC these days.
posted by suedehead at 5:12 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
- What's your desired level of finish? Are you taking good-quality, or higher-end marble countertops?
- What's your time commitment? For example, are you willing to pick out every single finish and item and give detailed specifications to a contractor? (ex: white glossy finish 3"x6" Nemo subway tiles, tiled in a herringbone pattern, with dark charcoal sanded grout) Or do you have vague/general ideas of what you want, and want someone to take on the job of finding cost-effective versions of the look that you're interested in? In which case, you're better off hiring an architect.
- MeMail me and I'll refer you to some contractors I've worked with, who would be happy to do a walkthrough. However, without drawings or detailed direction, they'd probably only be able to do a per square foot ballpark. Kitchens and bathrooms probably start at $200/sqft and way upwards in NYC these days.
posted by suedehead at 5:12 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Having just done this in queens in a prewar co-op building, nth-ing a GC that has done renovations in the actual co-op you intend to be in that has a good relationship with the staff and the board.......... and have multiple good recommendations from actual shareholders that specify how timely, overcharg-y, responsive to your concerns-y they are.
posted by lalochezia at 11:33 AM on November 16, 2015
posted by lalochezia at 11:33 AM on November 16, 2015
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posted by amanda at 11:58 AM on November 15, 2015