Efficient pie-making for a large crowd
November 1, 2015 5:46 PM Subscribe
I will be making individual pastries for 180 people. What tricks can I use to streamline the process, and what is the most efficient workflow?
My recipe involves sauteeing mushrooms, adding ricotta and some herbs, and wrapping the mixture in pre-bought, pre-rolled short pastry, sealing the edges, and baking the pies. They have to be made flat rather than in pie tins. I will have a large countertop (but not enough room to lay all the pies out at once), three people, and three large but not commercial ovens. I'm trying to figure out how best to set up the assembly line.
For example, will it be more efficient to cut each pastry sheet into two, and fold it over the filling (one less edge to seal), or to cut it into four and press a lid on each like ravioli (means I can have more bases set up on the counter at any given time while filling them)? If the latter, is it more efficient to cut the pastry before or after filling it? (Or does it not matter?)
My current plan is to have one person on mushroom sauteeing while another person starts laying out the pastry and cutting it up, then when the mushrooms are ready and mixed with the other ingredients, I'm thinking one person fills, another puts lids on, and the third is in charge of transferring things from the countertop to a holding zone and/or in and out of the oven. Does that seem like the best use of my helpers?
Finally, while I'm of course going to do a practise run as soon as possible, the earliest I can do that is a couple of weeks from now, and the organisers of the event would like a rough estimate already of how much time I'll need. Does anyone have a sense of this? The maximum time available is about four hours, and I'm thinking I might need all of that. (I will not be able to pre-prepare anything prior to this timeslot, so e.g. no sauteeing the mushrooms the night before or anything.)
My recipe involves sauteeing mushrooms, adding ricotta and some herbs, and wrapping the mixture in pre-bought, pre-rolled short pastry, sealing the edges, and baking the pies. They have to be made flat rather than in pie tins. I will have a large countertop (but not enough room to lay all the pies out at once), three people, and three large but not commercial ovens. I'm trying to figure out how best to set up the assembly line.
For example, will it be more efficient to cut each pastry sheet into two, and fold it over the filling (one less edge to seal), or to cut it into four and press a lid on each like ravioli (means I can have more bases set up on the counter at any given time while filling them)? If the latter, is it more efficient to cut the pastry before or after filling it? (Or does it not matter?)
My current plan is to have one person on mushroom sauteeing while another person starts laying out the pastry and cutting it up, then when the mushrooms are ready and mixed with the other ingredients, I'm thinking one person fills, another puts lids on, and the third is in charge of transferring things from the countertop to a holding zone and/or in and out of the oven. Does that seem like the best use of my helpers?
Finally, while I'm of course going to do a practise run as soon as possible, the earliest I can do that is a couple of weeks from now, and the organisers of the event would like a rough estimate already of how much time I'll need. Does anyone have a sense of this? The maximum time available is about four hours, and I'm thinking I might need all of that. (I will not be able to pre-prepare anything prior to this timeslot, so e.g. no sauteeing the mushrooms the night before or anything.)
Response by poster: That does sound great, but it would add the step of cutting the dough to a circle, and the pastry only comes in squares, so either we would waste a lot (which we can't afford), or we'd have to reroll and recut the trimmings, which I think would use up all the time saved.
But if anyone can point me in the direction of a square one available in Australia, I'd be very happy.
posted by lollusc at 6:00 PM on November 1, 2015
But if anyone can point me in the direction of a square one available in Australia, I'd be very happy.
posted by lollusc at 6:00 PM on November 1, 2015
Depending on how big these things are going to be, you could try either a rolling pastry crimper/ravioli cutter or a ravioli press.
posted by yeahlikethat at 6:17 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by yeahlikethat at 6:17 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Think about it in these terms:
If your baking time is about a half hour, you get a maximum of 3 ovens x 2-3 sheet pans/oven * 8 cooking batches if the ovens are immediately at temperature. That's 48-72 sheet pans worth of pastry. Hopefully you can get at least 5 pastries per sheet pan, and probably more than that. If you are cooking the filling before making the pastries, you're going to introduce a lot of latency in the process since the ovens will be unused while the mushrooms are sauteeing. I would guess like 20 minutes before you get the first pasty on a sheet pan. That's not cool because you're going to lose close to 1/8 of your oven time.
If it were me, I would make the filling a couple days ahead of time and keep refill the tubs the ricotta came in with filling, and I would make several sheet pans worth of pastries the morning of, have them on parchment and ready to go. That way you hit the ground running and you've already figured out the groove. I would group it as one person cuts and fills, one person seals, one person moves to the sheet pan and removes the ones that are done and manages presentation.
I would also figure out the optimum amount of filling for a cut pastry and have a disher that holds that amount for portioning.
posted by plinth at 6:36 PM on November 1, 2015
If your baking time is about a half hour, you get a maximum of 3 ovens x 2-3 sheet pans/oven * 8 cooking batches if the ovens are immediately at temperature. That's 48-72 sheet pans worth of pastry. Hopefully you can get at least 5 pastries per sheet pan, and probably more than that. If you are cooking the filling before making the pastries, you're going to introduce a lot of latency in the process since the ovens will be unused while the mushrooms are sauteeing. I would guess like 20 minutes before you get the first pasty on a sheet pan. That's not cool because you're going to lose close to 1/8 of your oven time.
If it were me, I would make the filling a couple days ahead of time and keep refill the tubs the ricotta came in with filling, and I would make several sheet pans worth of pastries the morning of, have them on parchment and ready to go. That way you hit the ground running and you've already figured out the groove. I would group it as one person cuts and fills, one person seals, one person moves to the sheet pan and removes the ones that are done and manages presentation.
I would also figure out the optimum amount of filling for a cut pastry and have a disher that holds that amount for portioning.
posted by plinth at 6:36 PM on November 1, 2015
Response by poster: I can't pre-prepare anything. The kitchen will be in use solidly by other people for the whole week up until I get my 4 hour slot. And it will be locked after hours. (And I'll be in a tent, in the woods.)
I'm guessing the ovens will need around 15-20 minutes to heat up to temperature, though, so not ALL the sauteeing time is wasted.
posted by lollusc at 6:58 PM on November 1, 2015
I'm guessing the ovens will need around 15-20 minutes to heat up to temperature, though, so not ALL the sauteeing time is wasted.
posted by lollusc at 6:58 PM on November 1, 2015
Keep in mind that warm filling will not work well, so your sauteed mushrooms must be chilled before filling your pastries. I just can't think of a way to do this all in 4 hours unless possibly you have access to tons of ice and can rapidly chill the mushroom filling. (Put a bowl filled with mushroom mix over another bowl filled with ice and continuously mix to cool it. The larger the bowl the better, as it exposes more of the filling to the cold). It would be possible in a commercial kitchen with good equipment, and an ice machine. Is that what this is? Adding it to cold ricotta will help, of course, but the filling really needs to be cold or you will warm the pastry dough, and your pastries will be more likely to leak and will not bake evenly.
As far as the pastry assembly, probably the easiest would be long strips where you can plop filling at intervals (use a meatball scoop, like an ice cream scoop with the trigger to release the scoop, but smaller. A melon ball scoop will work, too, but you'll need another spoon to pry out the filling) and fold over the top,cutting between to separate. A little eggwash on the inside will make the seal more secure, and a pizza cutter will make cutting much less messy as well as quicker (the pastry won't be pulled by a knife blade). Make sure you crimp the edges well - a fork pressed along the edges works well. Squares of pastry with filling in the middle can be fastened corner to opposite corner, twice, to look like adorable little packets, but they will take a little longer, though no crimping is needed. Eggwash again for a gorgeous shine. If possible chill the pastry packets before they go into the oven, and they will bake more evenly and be less misshapen. Good luck with your project
posted by citygirl at 8:02 PM on November 1, 2015
As far as the pastry assembly, probably the easiest would be long strips where you can plop filling at intervals (use a meatball scoop, like an ice cream scoop with the trigger to release the scoop, but smaller. A melon ball scoop will work, too, but you'll need another spoon to pry out the filling) and fold over the top,cutting between to separate. A little eggwash on the inside will make the seal more secure, and a pizza cutter will make cutting much less messy as well as quicker (the pastry won't be pulled by a knife blade). Make sure you crimp the edges well - a fork pressed along the edges works well. Squares of pastry with filling in the middle can be fastened corner to opposite corner, twice, to look like adorable little packets, but they will take a little longer, though no crimping is needed. Eggwash again for a gorgeous shine. If possible chill the pastry packets before they go into the oven, and they will bake more evenly and be less misshapen. Good luck with your project
posted by citygirl at 8:02 PM on November 1, 2015
You are going to need all 4 hours. It's the cook time that's going to get you. Not knowing how many saute pans, bake sheets, or oven racks, I would estimate:
1 hour filling prep time
1.5 hours pie prep/moving time
2.5 hours oven time (will need to overlap some prep time!)
Fold the dough, definitely, and use something to measure out filling. Parchment paper you can prep on, then move to emptied baking sheets, then use to move cooked pies, may also make your life easier.
posted by zennie at 8:22 PM on November 1, 2015
1 hour filling prep time
1.5 hours pie prep/moving time
2.5 hours oven time (will need to overlap some prep time!)
Fold the dough, definitely, and use something to measure out filling. Parchment paper you can prep on, then move to emptied baking sheets, then use to move cooked pies, may also make your life easier.
posted by zennie at 8:22 PM on November 1, 2015
Best answer: Fold yes.
Dough presses no--they eat up time (trust me on this).
Protip: the moment you walk in the kitchen, flick the ovens on to maximum volcano temp. Assuming it's a pro/institutional kitchen with all-metal cookware, throw any pans you'll be using into the ovens while you're chopping your mushrooms etc. That way they're already hot when you're ready to start sauteeing. (Use towels to protect your hands).
You'll also want ice baths. Ideally, if your kitchen has hotel pans, you'll want to fill some with ice. Place empty pans on top. As you finish batches of your filling, put the contents into the pan on top and have someone stir to chill the filling as fast as possible.
Bear in mind that, counterintuitively, you don't actually want to make ALL the filling and then fill ALL the pies and then bake them all. What you want to do, as soon as you have enough product for say 1/3 of your batch, is start filling--what this means is that get people chopping and sauteeing asap, and as soon as you have 1/3 of your filling ready, start the assembly line. So while sauteeing, have people cutting and laying out pastry. Since time is of the essence, lay out the pastry right on the sheet pans you'll be using for baking, fill on the pan, and right into the oven. Staggering slightly will give you more efficient oven usage.
I can offer more help if you can lay out or link to the exact specs and inventory of the kitchen you will be using.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:30 PM on November 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
Dough presses no--they eat up time (trust me on this).
Protip: the moment you walk in the kitchen, flick the ovens on to maximum volcano temp. Assuming it's a pro/institutional kitchen with all-metal cookware, throw any pans you'll be using into the ovens while you're chopping your mushrooms etc. That way they're already hot when you're ready to start sauteeing. (Use towels to protect your hands).
You'll also want ice baths. Ideally, if your kitchen has hotel pans, you'll want to fill some with ice. Place empty pans on top. As you finish batches of your filling, put the contents into the pan on top and have someone stir to chill the filling as fast as possible.
Bear in mind that, counterintuitively, you don't actually want to make ALL the filling and then fill ALL the pies and then bake them all. What you want to do, as soon as you have enough product for say 1/3 of your batch, is start filling--what this means is that get people chopping and sauteeing asap, and as soon as you have 1/3 of your filling ready, start the assembly line. So while sauteeing, have people cutting and laying out pastry. Since time is of the essence, lay out the pastry right on the sheet pans you'll be using for baking, fill on the pan, and right into the oven. Staggering slightly will give you more efficient oven usage.
I can offer more help if you can lay out or link to the exact specs and inventory of the kitchen you will be using.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:30 PM on November 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
Oh also, you want parchment on your pans under the pastry
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:40 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:40 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Would it be possible to replace the mushrooms with something that doesn't need pre-cooking, like sundried tomatoes or arugula or peas?
posted by zennie at 9:24 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zennie at 9:24 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
lollusc, can you make sausage roll shaped things? I'm assuming you're using Pampas or something similar. One sheet is the perfect size to make two logs that can be cut into 4 or 6 or whatever. Filling then rolling is quick and easy and looks nice enough.
Do what feckless said and heat all your trays and do your filling in batches and yes, chill your filling. Line your trays with baking paper.
On your work surface, cut each pastry sheet in half. I do this with the plastic still attached to the underside so that I don't have to flour my surface. Lay a row of filling on each half then roll each to form logs. Wet edge to seal. Poke with knife or fork to make pretty vents. Glaze if you can be bothered.
Put formed rolls seam side down on a sheet of baking paper somewhere cool nearby. Cut each log into whatever size you want. This is just so they don't stick to anything while you keep working.
When you've got enough for an oven full, put your rolls on a hot tray then straight back into the oven.
Make sure you have lots of timers and use them for everything.
Good luck!
posted by stellathon at 9:50 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Do what feckless said and heat all your trays and do your filling in batches and yes, chill your filling. Line your trays with baking paper.
On your work surface, cut each pastry sheet in half. I do this with the plastic still attached to the underside so that I don't have to flour my surface. Lay a row of filling on each half then roll each to form logs. Wet edge to seal. Poke with knife or fork to make pretty vents. Glaze if you can be bothered.
Put formed rolls seam side down on a sheet of baking paper somewhere cool nearby. Cut each log into whatever size you want. This is just so they don't stick to anything while you keep working.
When you've got enough for an oven full, put your rolls on a hot tray then straight back into the oven.
Make sure you have lots of timers and use them for everything.
Good luck!
posted by stellathon at 9:50 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the suggestions. I honestly hadn't thought about how tight timing might be for the cooking part of it. I'm still hoping it might be better than anticipated as I think I should be able to fit 8-10 pastries per oven sheet, and even if I can only get two sheets per oven, that still only means three cycles total. And I was kind of hoping that the filling being precooked meant they would take more like 15 minutes rather than 30. But I guess I'll find out when I do my test run.
Can't do substitution of filling for something completely different, but I'll see how canned mushrooms work in my test run. It would save a lot of time, and the chilling of the filling was something I hadn't really thought through properly either, so thanks for making me think about it. I had been thinking mixing in the ricotta would cool it down sufficiently, but it probably won't really. Canned mushrooms won't need pre cooking. Personally I hate the texture of them, but it might be a sacrifice I'll have to make.
Stellathon, that's an interesting idea, but I think they would fall apart too easily. These have to be able to be packed into lunch bags and transported. (I don't have to do the packing myself, thank goodness.)
posted by lollusc at 3:56 AM on November 2, 2015
Can't do substitution of filling for something completely different, but I'll see how canned mushrooms work in my test run. It would save a lot of time, and the chilling of the filling was something I hadn't really thought through properly either, so thanks for making me think about it. I had been thinking mixing in the ricotta would cool it down sufficiently, but it probably won't really. Canned mushrooms won't need pre cooking. Personally I hate the texture of them, but it might be a sacrifice I'll have to make.
Stellathon, that's an interesting idea, but I think they would fall apart too easily. These have to be able to be packed into lunch bags and transported. (I don't have to do the packing myself, thank goodness.)
posted by lollusc at 3:56 AM on November 2, 2015
You can't pre-sautee the mushrooms in their kitchen the night before, due to scheduling, but is it feasible to presautee them the week/month before and throw them in your freezer? Or if it's a commercial kitchen that you can't do anything at home, use some of your dry run time to pre-prep the filling?
posted by aimedwander at 7:30 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by aimedwander at 7:30 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've done exactly this, but my filling was cream cheese and spinach, spiced and blended. All cold, easy to work with.
I cut the pastry into squares and folded into triangles. I think it took about 90 mins, all included.
Are there other things in the bag? If so, you might want to make them smaller than usual. I found a lot of ours were cut over, because there were so many other things people wanted to sample.
posted by mumimor at 8:55 AM on November 2, 2015
I cut the pastry into squares and folded into triangles. I think it took about 90 mins, all included.
Are there other things in the bag? If so, you might want to make them smaller than usual. I found a lot of ours were cut over, because there were so many other things people wanted to sample.
posted by mumimor at 8:55 AM on November 2, 2015
If you have time before the event, maybe you could see how they would taste if you leave the mushrooms raw in the filling and only use the pastry cook time - how much would that cook the mushrooms?
posted by CathyG at 9:34 AM on November 2, 2015
posted by CathyG at 9:34 AM on November 2, 2015
That wouldn't cook the mushrooms enough, and the thing about mushrooms when cooked is that they release a lot of moisture, which will make the filling runny and the pastry soggy--this is also why canned mushrooms won't work, as they are very, very wet.
(I cook for a living, I've done large batches of almost this exact thing).
stellathon has the best suggestion for rapid filling.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:47 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
(I cook for a living, I've done large batches of almost this exact thing).
stellathon has the best suggestion for rapid filling.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:47 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Ooh, this isn't closed yet so I can update.
Thanks for all your help. It turned out the kitchen was equipped beyond my wildest dreams. It was basically a professional kitchen, with bain maries and ice bath equipment, and an industrial mushroom sautee-er thingy, and the ovens could each hold 60 pies at a time. Which was good, because one of them broke down on the day before. But even with two ovens, I only had to do two rounds of cooking, which only took 15 minutes each, so there was plenty of time for cooling the filling and assembling the pies. I managed it all in less than three hours, but I had been allocated the full four so it was nice and unrushed. (I even cooked roast chicken for the gluten free and roast pumpkin for the vegetarian gluten-frees within my time limit).
posted by lollusc at 6:19 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks for all your help. It turned out the kitchen was equipped beyond my wildest dreams. It was basically a professional kitchen, with bain maries and ice bath equipment, and an industrial mushroom sautee-er thingy, and the ovens could each hold 60 pies at a time. Which was good, because one of them broke down on the day before. But even with two ovens, I only had to do two rounds of cooking, which only took 15 minutes each, so there was plenty of time for cooling the filling and assembling the pies. I managed it all in less than three hours, but I had been allocated the full four so it was nice and unrushed. (I even cooked roast chicken for the gluten free and roast pumpkin for the vegetarian gluten-frees within my time limit).
posted by lollusc at 6:19 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
So for your assembly line, I'd maybe get two of them - then you could have one person on sautéing the mushrooms and preparing the filling, then two people could be on cutting the dough out and stuffing/folding/sealing duty. Or, one is on filling prep, one's on crust/stuffing duty, and one handles all the oven work (brushing the crusts, poking holes in them, putting them in the oven, etc.).
But yeah, those dough press things are a boon. I go on a hand pie binge every fall and always use them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:56 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]