Is this usual library practice?
October 28, 2015 8:10 PM Subscribe
I'm mentoring an 18 year old. When he was 11 he checked some books out of the library and lost them.
At the time his mom was in prison and he was living with his grandma. Then he went into foster care system. He just turned 18 and is on his own. He has no job and is couch surfing between friends and relatives.
I took him to get a library card and they said he can't have one until he either pays for or replaces the books he lost when he was 11. This would be $350.His mom isn't going to pay it...
I thought the parent would be the one they would go after for the lost books, not the child. Is this the usual practice in American public libraries?
If I wrote a letter to the chief librarian what could I say?
Thank you library people!
At the time his mom was in prison and he was living with his grandma. Then he went into foster care system. He just turned 18 and is on his own. He has no job and is couch surfing between friends and relatives.
I took him to get a library card and they said he can't have one until he either pays for or replaces the books he lost when he was 11. This would be $350.His mom isn't going to pay it...
I thought the parent would be the one they would go after for the lost books, not the child. Is this the usual practice in American public libraries?
If I wrote a letter to the chief librarian what could I say?
Thank you library people!
Could you take the librarian aside and explain? Surely they are able to waive the fines in extenuating circumstances. I don't think it would even need to be the "Chief Librarian". It's not the military, it's just some people and a big building full of media.
I think a phone call or email would also be fine.
$350 is, frankly, insane unless dude lost like 50 books or something. Typically in the worst case scenario you have to repay the value of the book in question. And surely we're talking about "Sounder" or something and not the Gutenberg Bible.
posted by Sara C. at 8:26 PM on October 28, 2015 [17 favorites]
I think a phone call or email would also be fine.
$350 is, frankly, insane unless dude lost like 50 books or something. Typically in the worst case scenario you have to repay the value of the book in question. And surely we're talking about "Sounder" or something and not the Gutenberg Bible.
posted by Sara C. at 8:26 PM on October 28, 2015 [17 favorites]
Best answer: Here's a sample letter for you:
Dear Chief Librarian,
I am mentoring an 18-year-old who is in a difficult situation with your library, and I am hoping you can help us find some way to resolve it. 18yo has been denied a library card due to failing to return books at age 11. At that time, 18yo's mother entered prison and 18yo was put into the foster care system, where he has remained until his recent 18th birthday. In the upheaval of that time, when he was 11 years old, the library books were unfortunately lost and never returned.
18yo has recently aged out of the foster care system and is trying to find his way in the adult world. He has not yet found employment or permanent housing. I have encouraged him to get a library card, and found that he is required to pay $350 for the books that were lost when he was suddenly put into foster care. Unfortunately, as much as he would like to be able to pay this debt, there is currently no good way for him to come up with this much money.
Surely there is an alternative solution? Could 18yo volunteer his time at the library in return for a card, or work out a long-term payment plan that begins once he is gainfully employed and permanently housed? A library card is very important to him because *insert reasons here*.
Please find it in your heart to help us solve this problem.
Sincerely,
SyraCarol
posted by erst at 8:30 PM on October 28, 2015 [80 favorites]
Dear Chief Librarian,
I am mentoring an 18-year-old who is in a difficult situation with your library, and I am hoping you can help us find some way to resolve it. 18yo has been denied a library card due to failing to return books at age 11. At that time, 18yo's mother entered prison and 18yo was put into the foster care system, where he has remained until his recent 18th birthday. In the upheaval of that time, when he was 11 years old, the library books were unfortunately lost and never returned.
18yo has recently aged out of the foster care system and is trying to find his way in the adult world. He has not yet found employment or permanent housing. I have encouraged him to get a library card, and found that he is required to pay $350 for the books that were lost when he was suddenly put into foster care. Unfortunately, as much as he would like to be able to pay this debt, there is currently no good way for him to come up with this much money.
Surely there is an alternative solution? Could 18yo volunteer his time at the library in return for a card, or work out a long-term payment plan that begins once he is gainfully employed and permanently housed? A library card is very important to him because *insert reasons here*.
Please find it in your heart to help us solve this problem.
Sincerely,
SyraCarol
posted by erst at 8:30 PM on October 28, 2015 [80 favorites]
I would not address the letter to "chief librarian" unless that is the title they use. I would direct such a letter to the director or to the head of access services. Check their library website to find out what titles they use and who you might contact. Calling or visiting and asking to speak to the director or to the head of access services in person might also work.
I hope they can help you.
posted by sockermom at 8:58 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
I hope they can help you.
posted by sockermom at 8:58 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is common, but it is ALSO common for libraries to waive fines for cases like these. A letter like the example above would be great. Calling or visiting would also work and might be more expedient.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:07 PM on October 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:07 PM on October 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, libraries typically have some flexibility if you talk to the right person. If you aren't sure who that is, send me a message and I'll help you figure it out. (I'm a librarian.)
posted by bluedaisy at 9:08 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 9:08 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Don't offer the alternative solution paragraph in Erst's letter (which is otherwise great.) You don't want an alternative solution to recover the debts of an 11 year old; you want them to waive the fee so just ask for that. It's not a big deal.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:09 PM on October 28, 2015 [73 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 9:09 PM on October 28, 2015 [73 favorites]
So, I'm a library employee. I know that the staff at my library would be more than willing to work with someone in this situation. Ask to speak to the branch manager, explain the circumstances, and ask them to waive or reduce the fines.
Library staff *want* to help people have access to the library. They should be able to work with you to make that happen.
posted by darchildre at 9:31 PM on October 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Library staff *want* to help people have access to the library. They should be able to work with you to make that happen.
posted by darchildre at 9:31 PM on October 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yep, I've had librarians waive a $400 fee for me - and my circumstances were nowhere as bad. If you're a kid and/or poor, they should make it disappear.
posted by congen at 9:54 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by congen at 9:54 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also something to consider for the future: the community college library near me does not charge overdue fines (and happens to have a wonderful selection of new and old books, likely because the students are too busy studying to ready for fun!) Community members can get free library cards there as well, and it's a different system from the local public libraries. He may have a few restrictions on the numbers of items he can check out, but it sounds like a really ideal option if he's near a community college.
(Also, a big thanks from the universe for helping him take care of this. I work with a lot of youth in a similar situation; it's a small challenge for us as mentors but opens a big door of opportunity for them.)
posted by smorgasbord at 10:10 PM on October 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
(Also, a big thanks from the universe for helping him take care of this. I work with a lot of youth in a similar situation; it's a small challenge for us as mentors but opens a big door of opportunity for them.)
posted by smorgasbord at 10:10 PM on October 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'd include the alternate solution paragraph in erst's sample letter. Even though he's in a hard life situation and the fees will probably be waived, a show of accountability is still important for his sake. I hope you'll include him in the whole process.
posted by davcoo at 12:13 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by davcoo at 12:13 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Vehemently disagree with davcoo. Kind librarians have halved or waived my fees - incurred because I was forgetful - on multiple occasions talking decades ago, now . Not once did anyone ever suggest I make up for it with "time served" (though it might not have been a bad idea in my case). The point is, it would be highly unusual. Even though odds are close to zero anyone would take up this offer of service, proposing it in the first place would only further punish and shame this kid for his life situation.
He was 11 years old at the time, his legal guardian was effectively absent - any reasonable person with the power to do so would just forgive the fine or at least cut it down.
The letter is otherwise great.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:30 AM on October 29, 2015 [35 favorites]
He was 11 years old at the time, his legal guardian was effectively absent - any reasonable person with the power to do so would just forgive the fine or at least cut it down.
The letter is otherwise great.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:30 AM on October 29, 2015 [35 favorites]
Most of the letter is great, but this part is NO GOOD:
>Could 18yo volunteer his time at the library in return for a card, or work out a long-term payment plan that begins once he is gainfully employed and permanently housed?
For pete's sake, cut the kid a break. He didn't do anything wrong. He doesn't need to be a servant at the library or spend his life's first earnings repaying this old sad debt from a shitty sad time in his childhood, that is ludicrous. Get the fine waived, period.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 1:52 AM on October 29, 2015 [40 favorites]
>Could 18yo volunteer his time at the library in return for a card, or work out a long-term payment plan that begins once he is gainfully employed and permanently housed?
For pete's sake, cut the kid a break. He didn't do anything wrong. He doesn't need to be a servant at the library or spend his life's first earnings repaying this old sad debt from a shitty sad time in his childhood, that is ludicrous. Get the fine waived, period.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 1:52 AM on October 29, 2015 [40 favorites]
Best answer: As a mentor, you might want to read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, and maybe 18yo might enjoy it, too. Gladwell talks about how people from secure socioeconomic backgrounds teach their kids how to bend the rules by asking nicely. Basically, by this logic, a rich family would NEVER suggest their kid create an 8 year payment plan for some books they accidentally lost during childhood hell, because they'd understand that the rules are fluid, and don't need to apply to them. Rules can change and the teen has some power to effect these changes.
This kid probably really needs to learn this- it's a valuable skill that will help neutralize some of the effects of a rough childhood. Getting extra help, extra attention, extra consideration, extra mentorship- kids from stable professional homes get these from their parents- 18yo needs to learn to get it using his personality, candour, courtesy, and savvy.
As a mentor, you can roleplay these kinds of scenarios with him and it will have a real tangible benefit in his life- can help with his grades, his job search, his job performance... his whole life. I mentor kids too and it's something I teach them explicitly, with roleplays and very clear, specific coaching. I only skimmed this article but I think it covers the same ground.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 2:01 AM on October 29, 2015 [68 favorites]
This kid probably really needs to learn this- it's a valuable skill that will help neutralize some of the effects of a rough childhood. Getting extra help, extra attention, extra consideration, extra mentorship- kids from stable professional homes get these from their parents- 18yo needs to learn to get it using his personality, candour, courtesy, and savvy.
As a mentor, you can roleplay these kinds of scenarios with him and it will have a real tangible benefit in his life- can help with his grades, his job search, his job performance... his whole life. I mentor kids too and it's something I teach them explicitly, with roleplays and very clear, specific coaching. I only skimmed this article but I think it covers the same ground.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 2:01 AM on October 29, 2015 [68 favorites]
Best answer: Hi! I am the type of librarian (Head of Circulation) you would speak with about waiving the fine. I'd suggest going in to the library in person with your mentee and have another go. This time, coach him to politely ask for the Head of Circulation and then explain his situation to them. He does not need to get in to the whole prison thing at all - just "When I was 11, these books were checked out for me but then lost. As an adult now, I would like access to the library's resources. I understand that it is important to return library materials promptly and now that I will be in control of my own card, I can ensure that this will happen."
Did the library give him a list of the titles? Might be worth checking if they are actually books an 11 year old would read. We have many parents who saddle their kids with their late fees because they have run up too many on their own card. We tend to waive those fines when the kids grow up.
The main thing that the library will want to hear is that this is a one time thing and not a habit forming. I give people the benefit of the doubt all the time, but do make notes on their patron records that I've done so. This helps sort out the bad apples that tend to ruin forgiveness for everyone.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:42 AM on October 29, 2015 [6 favorites]
Did the library give him a list of the titles? Might be worth checking if they are actually books an 11 year old would read. We have many parents who saddle their kids with their late fees because they have run up too many on their own card. We tend to waive those fines when the kids grow up.
The main thing that the library will want to hear is that this is a one time thing and not a habit forming. I give people the benefit of the doubt all the time, but do make notes on their patron records that I've done so. This helps sort out the bad apples that tend to ruin forgiveness for everyone.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:42 AM on October 29, 2015 [6 favorites]
Hey, you can tell this kid he's not alone. I did the same thing around age 19-20, except, I did find the books eventually, and returned them about a year later. Stupidly, however, I just put them in the drop box. Annnd then when I tried to check out again, they told me I owed $200. Apparently the books had been out so long that they removed the barcodes from circulation, so I couldn't prove I ever returned them. Which doesn't explain why the books just disappeared after they presumably tried to check them in from the dropbox and couldn't do it.
ANYWAY. I hope that if you are persistent enough you can get the fines waived by some higher-up , because I left several messages etc and eventually gave up. No books for me. /salty
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:54 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
ANYWAY. I hope that if you are persistent enough you can get the fines waived by some higher-up , because I left several messages etc and eventually gave up. No books for me. /salty
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:54 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Another data point to specifically address ghe question "Is this usual library practice?"
I'm the "head" librarian at a small but old children's library and this would never happen. Late fees are paid by parents, generally. When children do pay it themselves they pay a fraction of the cost (10% in most cases). And most importantly, fees are capped at the cost of the lost books.
Could he offer to replace the lost books as a gesture of good faith? (Not that I think he should have to!)
posted by eisforcool at 6:23 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm the "head" librarian at a small but old children's library and this would never happen. Late fees are paid by parents, generally. When children do pay it themselves they pay a fraction of the cost (10% in most cases). And most importantly, fees are capped at the cost of the lost books.
Could he offer to replace the lost books as a gesture of good faith? (Not that I think he should have to!)
posted by eisforcool at 6:23 AM on October 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
The library owes this kid good faith. Not the other way around.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:52 AM on October 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:52 AM on October 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
We learned recently that if you "lose" a book at our library you pay some capped replacement cost ($25 I think). If you return a book super late, though, the fines continue to rack up by the day. So the librarian is familiar with my face because I come in, pay the "lost book" fine and then find the book in my backpack! The library doesn't have to replace the book and I don't have to pay more than I would if I had lost the book.
Which is to say, you'd never rack up that much in fees at our library unless you lost 14 books.
posted by dpx.mfx at 7:53 AM on October 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Which is to say, you'd never rack up that much in fees at our library unless you lost 14 books.
posted by dpx.mfx at 7:53 AM on October 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
I lost some library CDs in a move a few years ago. My library was willing to waive any fees and fines, and the outstanding balance I owed became the value of the materials. They were also willing to accept replacements instead of cash. I then bought used books/CDs from the Amazon marketplace at a fraction of the cost. My ~$500 bill shrank to under $200. This case might be even less because they're books, not CDs, and books are often cheaper. Obviously, you'll need to talk to a librarian first to make sure this will be OK, but I hope this is helpful.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:00 AM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 8:00 AM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Former library circulation supervisor here, albeit at a private college, not a public library. We would absolutely waive most/all of the fees to a person who seemed even remotely repentant. And I was dealing with young adults, not tweens/teens, and we had the ability to block them from getting their diplomas if they didn't pay up.
I think you would be better off talking to someone who has the power to help you (either in person or on the phone), rather than writing a letter. Ask for their help coming up with a solution. They could be assholes about it, but hopefully if you explain the extenuating circumstances they will help your mentee out.
You do need to talk to the right person, though - if you just talked to the person at the front desk, they may be the equivalent of a checker at WalMart or a front-line customer service rep at a call center - they will tell you the bare bones rules of the policy but they will not be able to fix things for you (and may not be particularly motivated to do so). At least ask to speak to their supervisor. If you want help figuring out the right person to ask, feel free to memail me a link to the library's website and I can try and ID the person you should call/ask for.
posted by mskyle at 8:07 AM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you would be better off talking to someone who has the power to help you (either in person or on the phone), rather than writing a letter. Ask for their help coming up with a solution. They could be assholes about it, but hopefully if you explain the extenuating circumstances they will help your mentee out.
You do need to talk to the right person, though - if you just talked to the person at the front desk, they may be the equivalent of a checker at WalMart or a front-line customer service rep at a call center - they will tell you the bare bones rules of the policy but they will not be able to fix things for you (and may not be particularly motivated to do so). At least ask to speak to their supervisor. If you want help figuring out the right person to ask, feel free to memail me a link to the library's website and I can try and ID the person you should call/ask for.
posted by mskyle at 8:07 AM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd take out the "find it in your heart" bit, too, or not put anything like it into a new letter or communication--it seems manipulative, and may feel insulting to staff members who are already used to doing this as a matter of course.
posted by wintersweet at 8:41 AM on October 29, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 8:41 AM on October 29, 2015 [10 favorites]
Oh ALSO, if you were at a branch library (especially a small branch) try calling or visiting the main library. There will likely be more levels of supervisors you can work your way up through at the main library.
posted by mskyle at 9:08 AM on October 29, 2015
posted by mskyle at 9:08 AM on October 29, 2015
I'm kind of amazed at how polite people here are being. Reading the post made me pretty angry to be honest. I'd walk in to that library already in "raise hell" mode. Forget suggesting he work as a volunteer or arrange a payment plan. He was 11, are you kidding me? The time for the library to take action was ages ago. At this point the books are long past being a write-off and it's completely ludicrous to hold that against him now as an adult. In many cases you'd be entitled to effectively erase proper crimes from your record if you were 18 and had committed the act when you were 11. But you can't get a membership at the library ever again?
posted by Hoopo at 11:41 AM on October 29, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 11:41 AM on October 29, 2015 [12 favorites]
I would find out who the library director is and contact them, either by phone or by email (in person would be ideal, if you can). It's entirely likely that whoever you initially talked doesn't have the authority to waive the fees -- the person at the circulation desk is almost never the one in charge. If worse comes to worse and they say they can't just waive the whole things, maybe see if replacing the books is an option.
Either way, I would talk to the director before getting too angry or giving up.
posted by sarcasticah at 2:51 PM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Either way, I would talk to the director before getting too angry or giving up.
posted by sarcasticah at 2:51 PM on October 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Everyone's suggestions are perfect - talk to the library or even the people who head the branch, if it is a branch. But I wanted to add I lost a book as a kid and the library said I could pay off that fine by replacing it with another book - not the same book I lost, but just a book - so that may be an option if they still want something for the lost books. (I know you said he's in a bad spot financially but cheap or free boooks are easier to acquire than just about anything else).
posted by atinna at 9:36 PM on October 29, 2015
posted by atinna at 9:36 PM on October 29, 2015
I love all the things pseudostrabismus said. Once you get this cleared up with him (and thank you for doing this and taking this attitude about the issue), ask the librarian you are working with what kind of classes and resources this young person should be aware of in the library. Let your mentee talk about things that he is interested in learning – is he interested in the trades? In literature? In entrepreneurship? Does he need help with job searching? Career searching?
You might do an initial phone call to the library so that you can understand what you are walking in to but I bet they will work with both of you to make this right; giving him the confidence to use the library would be such a gift.
posted by amanda at 10:18 AM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
You might do an initial phone call to the library so that you can understand what you are walking in to but I bet they will work with both of you to make this right; giving him the confidence to use the library would be such a gift.
posted by amanda at 10:18 AM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you to everyone who answered. He was amazed by your responses and it gave him more confidence to go and talk. We have started using this as a case study for our young men as it gets at so many issues. Metafilter is the best !
posted by SyraCarol at 9:50 AM on June 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by SyraCarol at 9:50 AM on June 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
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Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 8:14 PM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]