Am I being unreasonable, or is my girlfriend right?
October 17, 2015 1:13 AM   Subscribe

I'm male, mid 30s. I've been dating a woman (GF) close to my age for several weeks now. My best friend (BF) is female, early 30s. I have a camping trip coming up with BF (we do this semi-frequently). GF doesn't want me to go because "grown men in relationships don't go camping alone with other women". Is she right?

I'll admit, I have a very different view of friendships and relationships than most guys. I don't see women as some sort of sexual conquest. I view my male friends and female friends the same. I am attracted to my best friend for who she is, and how easily we get along, and how much fun we have when we're out hiking etc together. We are great communicators and our friendship is based on trust and honesty. I know neither one of us will cross the line.

GF has not met BF yet because BF doesn't live nearby. I offered to modify my trip, and take GF along with me, and have BF bring the guy she's currently dating... but GF was insulted that I would make such an offer, and that the only sane thing to do would be to cancel my trip (and lose the money I've already spent).

I think GF is an amazing woman, and I appreciate her for standing up for her values, but I'm wondering -- Is she right? Am I wrong? Is there another way to approach this? Are we just a bad match? Needless to say, this wouldn't be an issue if BF was male -- and that rubs me the wrong way, too.

Just to add a bit more background: this isn't just GF saying such things either. Even some of my friends, and some of BF's friends, can't believe that we go on such awesome adventures and are just friends. Some of my friends still ask me every now and then "So, did you and BF make out yet?" -- ugh.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (101 answers total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
 
I know you say YOU treat women and men friends the same and resent the sexist underpinning of your GF's response buuuut, the world IS a sexist place where this uneven acceptance happens. Maybe it really exists as a direct experience in your GF's life. Maybe introduce your friend to your partner (not a stressful weekend trip, but on a more manageable date, and find ways to modulate to a fairly common apprehension. Going on a camping trip with a desired-gender person is likely to throw up some doubts, and not just because your GF's a difficult person.
posted by honey-barbara at 1:26 AM on October 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


Girlfriend is wrong. This is who you are, with the support network you've built and she wants you to change it. When you offered to accommodate her, she instead got insulted and didn't accept the accommodations.

Who needs this shit a few weeks into a relationship? Not you. Drop the GF and move on. She'll probably only get worst about this dynamic, as you probably know from previous relationships.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:27 AM on October 17, 2015 [130 favorites]


I am attracted to my best friend for who she is, and how easily we get along, and how much fun we have when we're out hiking etc together. We are great communicators and our friendship is based on trust and honesty

Your BF really sounds like a girlfriend without the "benefits".

I'm with your GF on this, I would be VERY uncomfortable if my SO had this level of intimacy with another woman.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 1:34 AM on October 17, 2015 [41 favorites]


GF doesn't trust you and expects you to make radical changes to an important part of your life a few weeks into the relationship? Better for both of you to end the relationship now. She's probably right that there's a chance you'll end up in bed with BF, but I think that's not the main message here.
posted by fmnr at 1:45 AM on October 17, 2015 [16 favorites]


I can certainly see why your girlfriend is uncomfortable. It is certainly unusual to go away on your own with an opposite sex friend while you have a girlfriend, and while there might not be anything dodgy going on, it's easy to see how there could be. I presume you're sharing a tent with your friend which is quite an intimate thing to do, and they haven't met yet so your girlfriend has no way of gauging whether this really is the innocent friendship you say it is, or one of those "platonic" things which is really is nothing of the sort but you kid yourself it is because you're not actually having sex.

That said, your idea of turning it into a "double date" thing with four of you seemed like a great idea to me, and I have no idea why your girlfriend was insulted by it.

Perhaps invite BF to meet GF before the trip so she can judge for herself if this friendship is something she needs to be worried about?
posted by intensitymultiply at 1:51 AM on October 17, 2015 [17 favorites]


I would feel weird if you were my wife, and my wife would feel weird if I were you.

Which is just to say that we have certain cultural understandings that are different than yours, and even if there were nothing inappropriate going on it's just not the kind of thing we would be comfortable doing.

I don't think GF is wrong and I don't think you're wrong; I think people and groups should have a pretty wide latitude to determine their own senses of propriety. But this seems like a clear signal that you and GF don't share one, and if neither of you is able to budge on it (and good on both of you if that's the case) it's probably for the best that you found this out so early.

Your friends are talking because from the outside—from that frame of reference that's more like GF's or mine than yours—it's really hard to distinguish your situation from how my wife and I met and danced around each other, and unfortunately for you it's also the plot of every third romantic comedy. I don't doubt your relationship with BF is exactly what you say it is; if it were different, or you wanted it to be, I doubt you'd ask this question. But their observations are inextricable from their worldview.

I do agree with intensitymultiply that the double-date idea seemed like a great way to defuse this, at least in abstract; not sure what put GF off of that.
posted by Polycarp at 1:59 AM on October 17, 2015 [35 favorites]


In my opinion, neither of you are "wrong", you're just different (or perhaps misunderstanding each other). I've been the jealous one before (straight guy here) and for me it can be uncomfortable when my partner is very close with a member of the opposite sex, particularly someone I don't know. Some people consider this normal and not a big thing, and others have difficulty trusting their partner with it.

If you're really interested in this woman, it may be in your best interests, if you haven't already exhausted the topic, to try talking with her calmly and candidly about it. First, try to understand why she isn't cool with it. See if that changes anything -- maybe it's just a misunderstanding. Then explain your point of view and see if anything changes with her. Let it sink in. If you feel you're understanding each other and she still doesn't want you to go, you may be better off ending things. It depends on whether you're willing to make sacrifices for a jealous partner, I suppose.
posted by HumanBean at 2:00 AM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm not going to say your girlfriend is objectively "wrong," but for me? This would be a dealbreaker. I think it would be great if she wanted to come along on the trip, but that's not what she's asking. You value your friendships; don't compromise your integrity for a relationship. Brandon Blatcher is right that requests like this get worse as time goes on, not better.
posted by thetortoise at 2:00 AM on October 17, 2015 [42 favorites]


This is one of those areas in which people tend to have fairly radically different opinions. There are people who believe quite firmly that male-female friendships can be non-sexual and there are people who believe the opposite. If your new girlfriend is in the second group, it is unlikely that she'll be persuaded to change camps. As someone who is in the first group, I very much understand your perspective and find it hard to understand your girlfriend's perspective - to me it feels like she doesn't trust you, but to her I am sure that she sees it as you doing something completely out of the question.

There's probably a good overlaps in these groups for those people who are friends with ex-significant others - but maybe you fall into the group that would be uncomfortable with your significant other hanging out with her ex. If so maybe that can give you insight into how she's feeling about you camping with your friend.

Having your girlfriend and friend meet in a non-overnight camping venue seems like a good idea. I think your offer of making it a double camping date was a thoughtful solution, but your girlfriend is already upset about the situation and probably unable to find her way to accepting this as a solution right now.

You do need to sit down when this is no longer a pressing issue and talk about how you view friendships with men and women. It is definitely possible that she doesn't want you to have any female friends - would that be a deal breaker for you? Would that be a deal breaker for her?
posted by sciencegeek at 2:01 AM on October 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


One of my best friends is male, we go on holidays together, we have dinner together, we hang out in lots of ways that from the outside maybe look like dating, but nobody ever asks if we're going to make out. There is possibly something about the tenor of this relationship with your best friend that reads as more romantically-inclined than your other relationships. I'm really interested in how you phrased the reason for your friendship - you said 'I'm attracted to my best friend for who she is'. I can't think of any instance where I'd describe a purely platonic friendship as attraction - to me that's a word that's coded romantically in this context.

That said, I think you and your girlfriend are both right. You should absolutely be able to have a platonic friendship with someone of the opposite sex, and have that be completely fine. But she's entitled to feel uncomfortable about that, particularly so early on in dating you. If it's only been a few weeks then she actually doesn't know you very well, and she definitely doesn't know your friend. If she's been burned in past relationships with something similar, then she might be wary on the basis of past experience, and maybe she's not ready to trust that you're different. I don't think phrasing it as 'grown men don't do X' is a helpful approach, and I wonder why she's refused to go along in a double date scenario - that might be the bit that's actually worth discussing.

Ultimately to me, if I was in your girlfriend's place dating someone and they chose to go on the trip, I would feel as though my feelings weren't a priority to them. If I was in your place, I would want to have a deeper discussion with my girlfriend about what particularly was bothering her, and what a compromise would look like. I don't think there's a right answer here.
posted by theseldomseenkid at 2:03 AM on October 17, 2015 [42 favorites]


Gah, she's only known you a few weeks?

I don't know how I didn't read that as being so much more important.

How does she know she can trust you yet? This is your first trust hurdle, and it's a big one. Why should she have different reactions to even the friends you have had for years, who also raise their eyebrows? I know intellectually that yes, men and women can be friends, and good ones, and maybe if I knew you for a longer time and had met the friend etc, there might be more trust on this to be felt. But the world you inhabit and we live in, is as you say in your post, less credulous. When you want this kind of thing, you must know that you have to do some heavier lifting in terms of social barriers and cultural upbringing.

And I think there is a more nuanced answer than 'she is wrong' or 'I am wrong' - an immature way to sort out conflict. I think there's an opportunity for learning about each other here. You've learned she shares the same reservations as your friends, what's 'wrong' with her, if even your friends who know you and your BF, and have these suspicions?

But more instructive, is that you did offer solutions to accommodate your friend's partner, and your girlfriend and there hasn't been a good discussion of how this might all work out. Eg how can the two friends [you n BF] still have a good time and take care of each person's partner on a weekend away.

Or postpone the intimate camping until you've got some trust credits in the bank with her, as a potential long term partner. She wouldn't be the first gal to raise her eyebrows and feel upset over this kind of thing, so if it's a deal breaker for you - easy and tacit acceptance of your strong friendship with a desired-sex person, that involves overnight camping, tent-sharing etc, break it off.

There's a lot to consider too, in terms of your experience of a couple's first conflict. How you handle this situation, and how she handles it, is a very strong indication of how your conflicts play out throughout the relationship.
posted by honey-barbara at 2:04 AM on October 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


I was leaning with your girlfriend until I got to this part: "I offered to modify my trip, and take GF along with me, and have BF bring the guy she's currently dating... but GF was insulted that I would make such an offer, and that the only sane thing to do would be to cancel my trip."

Maybe I'm missing a reason that would be insulting? I think at the point you non-defensively said "why don't we all go together?" I would've decided to just trust you.
posted by salvia at 2:08 AM on October 17, 2015 [103 favorites]


I have a difficult time sympathising with your girlfriend. I have good male friends, I don't think I would blink if my partner had a good female friend-- I don't say she's wrong, but this kind of jealousy would be a deal-breaker for me.
posted by frumiousb at 2:18 AM on October 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


It seems that your girlfriend doesn't trust you. Where there's no trust, you can't really have a relationship, because trust is the foundation of a relationship. You can't build a relationship on nothing.

My partner telling me that I couldn't go off and have good times with my friend would be a huge red flag to me. Trying to separate me from seeing my friends like that is asking me to choose, and I'd choose the person who hadn't asked me to make the choice. Having sex with someone doesn't mean they come before anyone else, at least in my book. My friends are also important to me, even though we're not having sex, and that fact doesn't change based on who I'm having sex with.

This would be dealbreaker territory for me. I've never seen this level of possessiveness get anything other than worse.
posted by Solomon at 2:22 AM on October 17, 2015 [31 favorites]


I agree that your compromise of bringing her and making it a double date camping trip was a great idea and she shouldn't have gotten bent out of shape.

But also if I were her and we'd only been dating for a bit, I wouldn't be comfortable with it and I absolutely could not date a man who went solo camping with his female bf.

But I also only dated men without female friends, I personally couldn't handle it. Maybe she needs to only date men who socialize with other men.
posted by flink at 2:45 AM on October 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


You are a bad match vis-à-vis mixed-gender friendships. In my experience, this is is one those social values that is burned in from childhood and nearly impossible to overcome.

I'm a married 40-year old woman, and I recently went on an 4-night trip, 2000 miles from home, with a group of 4 other adult friends of mixed genders, all married, none of our spouses were on this trip, and our sleeping arrangements included only 2 beds. Nobody batted an eye, none of our spouses batted an eye, nothing "inappropriate" was even a concern for anybody because we are grown-ass adults with grown-ass friends and grown-ass partners. For me personally, this isn't something I've matured into, I've had platonic relationships with men since, well, since I was a girl and they were boys.
posted by ellenaim at 3:26 AM on October 17, 2015 [44 favorites]


This is really one of those things that yea, there's essentially two camps. Each side will point out the worst example of potential behavior from the other side("they're super jealous and they'll ruin all your friendships!" "they're lying and it's not really *just* a platonic friendship!"), but no one ever really changes.

Either you're ok with it, or you're not. She has demonstrated that she isn't. This likely won't change.

I, like you, have several close lady friends. I've gone on trips with some of them or other solo activities/outings. Several people i know, and my mom are always appalled. Others see it as no big deal. And this is despite the fact that i've been in a relationship for years, and been friends with all involved for as long or longer. Same stuff still comes up.

This is a fairly major mismatch, and i'm on team "its only been a few weeks, move on". It's almost an ask/guess culture sort of thing in how much it really wont change.
posted by emptythought at 3:31 AM on October 17, 2015 [16 favorites]


There is no right answer here; it's a fundamental compatibility question. My husband spends extended time staying with his best friend of 30 years at her house in a neighbouring country, with absolutely zero issue; on the other hand, I have an ex who used to require massive reassurance and cumbersome check-ins when I so much as wanted to go out for the night in a mixed group.

The ex an I were fundamentally incompatible; the husband and I are not.

Your mileage will probably not vary.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:56 AM on October 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


This is one of those areas in which people tend to have fairly radically different opinions. There are people who believe quite firmly that male-female friendships can be non-sexual and there are people who believe the opposite.

Exactly. As you can see in comments above, this would be a dealbreaker of a situation for a lot of thoughtful and smart people. Personally, I'm in your camp. I've gone backpacking with female friends (with not a hint of sexual tension), and my wife regularly shares rooms at conferences with friends (of all genders and sexualities).

In my world that isn't even worthy of comment, much less worry, but I know lots of people for whom a platonic beer after work with a coworker of another gender would be absolutely unthinkable, and to take a trip like you are proposing would be beyond the pale. They are thoughtful, caring people in strong and loving relationships, but where the understanding is that neither party is going to have that kind of close contact.

In other words, this isn't a situation where one of you is "right" and one of you is "wrong," but rather a reflection of very different perspectives on gender and friendship. I'm sure with time and communication you could find ways to compromise, but it's up to you if this relationship is worth that effort or not. Is this always going to be a point of contention, or is she a person with whom you can build a solid and trusting relationship that includes your friendships?
posted by Dip Flash at 4:24 AM on October 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Nthing the advice to leave the relationship with GF. Your suggestion to have her come along on the trip should have allayed any concern on her part about your relationship with BF.

She's already trying to change who you are and it's only a few weeks in. This is more about a bad power dynamic than anything else, to my eye.

And the other people who don't understand your relationship with BF? Well, you know what they say about opinions.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 4:32 AM on October 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Another vote that you just may be a bad fit. That comment about "grown men" sounds very very negative to me and makes me wonder why she didn't just break up with you if that is how she feels about something you habitually do. But maybe it sounds a lot worse out of context than it did in the actual conversation. Apart from that language, though, looking at it from the point of view of her being "wrong" seems unfair to me too. She hasn't met your friend and it's only been a few weeks and she's feeling insecure. That seems fairly natural and maybe the timing of this trip is unfortunate. So I would try to avoid the blame on either side.
posted by BibiRose at 5:26 AM on October 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


My instinct is to side with you but if the relationship was important to me then I would talk to her: these are my values and this is where I stand on my friendships. Is this something we can work on or is this a dealbreaker? But I wouldn't let go of a healthy, supporting friendship with someone if a partner asked me to because - to me - that would signify my values were incompatible with theirs. YMMV
posted by mkdirusername at 5:29 AM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I dated someone who made similar accusations. A pretty large percentage of my friends were/are women, maybe 65-70%. You'd think this would register as a good sign for a potential long-term partner, since, you know, I'm obviously not some woman-hating brodude who's just out to score. But this ex of mine couldn't believe that I hadn't slept with my friend and roommate at the time, and the notion of a man living with a woman without getting involved sexually apparently did not compute. Obviously this relationship didn't work out. Now I think back on that accusation as a red flag.
posted by deathpanels at 5:34 AM on October 17, 2015 [9 favorites]


In so many words, your brand new GF is saying she thinks you're childish and insane if you won't capitulate to her demands to cancel this trip and lose the money you've already spent on it?? Yuck. RUN!

You know what they say whenever one writes an Ask about a brand spanking new relationship that's only a few weeks in, suddenly wondering "Am I being unreasonable?" because their new partner suddenly has a Big Issue with one's longstanding lifestyle choice, which the new partner then chooses to express to them in very negative terms, and with a closed-minded, One True Way tone that insults all holders of the viewpoints that would disagree with them?

Oy vey. We're solidly in DTMFA-land here.

Listen, life is hard enough to get through, and if you are lucky enough find a hobby and a best friend that brings you such happiness like you have with these trips with your best friend, then don't give that shit up! You sound so thrilled with your outdoorsy lifestyle, your cool best friend who has healthy boundaries, and your awesome camping and hiking trips together. Why on earth would you change that just to please someone who wasn't even in your life just weeks ago?!

GF doesn't want me to go because "grown men in relationships don't go camping alone with other women". Is she right?

Nope! In fact, "grown men" and fully evolved, mature people actually do this all the damn time. I'm also not a fan of her suggesting that you, a mid-30-something person, are not a "grown man." You've only been dating GF for a matter of weeks, and already she's judging you, mistrusting you, and is pressuring you to bail on plan$ you've made with your best friend, whose company you've enjoyed for ages, and whom a rational, secure person whose gotten the therapy they need should not find at all threatening on these facts [or on preview what BibiRose just said, exactly].

Needless to say, this wouldn't be an issue if BF was male -- and that rubs me the wrong way, too.

Yeah, and if we unpack this a bit more it's because your GF holds a blatantly sexist view here, and you are damn right to find sexism disturbing. She'd have no problem if your BF were male. Full stop. Wow. Not cool.

Even some of my friends, and some of BF's friends, can't believe that we go on such awesome adventures and are just friends. Some of my friends still ask me every now and then "So, did you and BF make out yet?" -- ugh.

I blame the patriarchy. And also, the knowledge that someone has times of real joy and happiness can be very threatening to people and can cause them to make odd comments like that as they grapple with their own issues. Ignore.
posted by hush at 5:42 AM on October 17, 2015 [36 favorites]


Yeah, I wouldn't date someone who thinks the way your girlfriend does. Not only would I find it insulting and belittling that someone I was dating thought so little of me and the people I choose as friends, but any relationship that had rules like these would be incompatible with my actual life.

You've been dating this woman for a couple of weeks. You've discovered that you're incompatible in a pretty fundamental way. Now is the time to either resolve that incompatibility in a way that makes YOU feel comfortable, or break up. I recommend the latter, because this is going to keep recurring.

And tell your other friends who are teasing you to knock it off, because they're being idiots.
posted by decathecting at 5:42 AM on October 17, 2015 [11 favorites]


If I were your girlfriend this would bother me. Especially considering that your own friends have asked you if you've made out with your best friend. I am not totally averse to mixed-sex (for straight folks) friendships! I have lots of dude friends, and no one ever ever asks us if we've made out, because it is very clear that we actually are just friends. There is something here that is giving people you are close to the impression that BF is more than just a friend, and that might be worth examining.

"Insulting" is a weird word choice, but I can see lots of reasons to decline a camping trip on short notice, though many of those reasons boil down to, "I hate camping." Since this is a new relationship, I think it's hard for your girlfriend to picture you going on a trip with another woman, since she's probably envisioning all the worst case scenarios. If it were me, I'd have preferred to meet BF prior to you two taking a trip together. If she doesn't end up going with you, would your best friend's partner still be able to come, or is that not an option?

I guess the thing that I think a lot of people may not understand, or maybe just not feel or think about, is that when dudes have platonic female friends it can be very intimidating because friends don't break up, but relationships do. So in many ways, platonic friends rank higher than girlfriends do, which can be kinda tough to deal with. Now that I'm married I know I come first in my husband's life, but when we first met and he had scores of female friends, I worried that I was just temporary fun, and the rest of the women were in it for the long haul.

I would kinda lean towards DTMFA not because your girlfriend is being unreasonable, but because this does sound like a compatibility issue. If you end up going, maybe you can text her frequently, including photo updates and "I miss you and wish you were here"s?
posted by masquesoporfavor at 6:11 AM on October 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


I'm bi. For folks like your GF, I can never be friends with... anyone. :) And hey, that's what some people want, and some people are okay with a relationship with those kinds of restrictions. That doesn't sound like it's going to work for you, though.
posted by joycehealy at 6:21 AM on October 17, 2015 [30 favorites]


Drop the GF and move on. She'll probably only get worst about this dynamic

Sure but don't expect this to be a one off. I don't know many girls who would be comfortable with this situation. Ideally, platonic relationships between men and women would be an accepted (and promoted?) thing in society without suspicions arising but it's slow in coming. I know lots of people have them so don't slam me for saying that but there is always this suspicion that something might 'occur' (hence the teasing). It's not an insulting thing - it's just that things happen and we avoid putting ourselves in situations where that might be likely. It's nice that you're enlightened but it's rare and you should consider that not many people would be open about it.

Taking that into account, I feel that your expectations of your girlfriend are a little too high since you have only been dating for several weeks. It would take some time to get used to a man/partner who is this open. Trust takes time to build. I think it would help about 50% if everyone met each other, though, especially if the guy-friend is ok with it. She's probably imagining that your friend is a wanton, sexual deviant in a kagoul.

I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable about this myself although I would have taken you up on your offer to let the boyfriend come along and I think that was a kind gesture on your part. If I were you, I would not cancel. She is not wrong. You are not wrong. You just have different ideas about what is acceptable.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 6:26 AM on October 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


GF doesn't want me to go because "grown men in relationships don't go camping alone with other women". Is she right?

Not in any objective sense. But she's letting you know that she expects to be very unhappy if you do as you intend to, and she may well be right about that.

So the two of you are now up to the part of the new relationship where you get to decide whether her trust issues are a dealbreaker for you, and she gets to decide whether your desire for unsupervised time is a dealbreaker for her.

In your shoes, I would go, and then see how the relationship shakes out afterwards.

Some of my friends still ask me every now and then "So, did you and BF make out yet?" -- ugh.

"Ugh" indeed. Grownups in friendships don't carry on with this kind of junior high-school bullshit.
posted by flabdablet at 6:28 AM on October 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


Just as a data point since it's come up in the thread - people have asked me if I am dating several of my friends, all of totally unsuitable gender presentation and/or orientation, and none of them are people that I am interested in or have a "date" vibe with. We're not a social circle where people ask if you've "made out" with someone, but I'm sure that if we were, they would. Now, it's just barely possible that I unconsciously have a date-vibe with, like, all these friends that I consciously think are really not attractive to me, but I doubt it. I tend to think that it's much more that some people assume that everyone is on the make all the time, honestly. And I think this is doubly true with male and female friendships.

How is your girlfriend going to feel when you have lunch or dinner with BF? How is she going to feel when you're texting or on the phone?

I guess that if you really, really like GF, and you're okay about losing the money, you could cancel the trip - but I think you need to have a sit-down with GF and establish whether going to dinner with BF is going to get treated the same way. Is GF going to get upset when you're on the phone with BF? Is GF going to get upset if you talk to BF about your life and [within reason - as one does with a friend] about your relationship?

I am uncomfortable with GF pushing you to cancel a trip you've already planned when you and she have only been dating a few weeks. That seems very intrusive to me. I would not assume, after only a few weeks of dating, that I was such a large part of someone's life that they should change big aspects of their life for me.

I am also concerned that if GF wants to do this so early in the relationship - and in a really aggressive way; I would not be comfortable with a partner speaking to me like that - this will only turn into "why are you seeing her for lunch?" and "why are you emailing her" later on.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 AM on October 17, 2015 [24 favorites]


I never pick the seemingly-overly-jealous party in questions like this, but your GF is right. You describe yourself as "attracted" to the BF (platonically, sure) and say that you two would never "cross the line" - but jeez, why is the line even the issue? You didn't actually clearly state that you're not interested in her. Maybe your GF has picked up on your ambiguous language, who knows - but you seem to be closer to that "line" than you say.
posted by thejoshu at 6:47 AM on October 17, 2015 [23 favorites]


You had this trip planned before you even started dating your girlfriend???? Bloody hell, dump the controlling, insecure, scary person.
posted by taff at 6:48 AM on October 17, 2015 [14 favorites]


Addendum to my reply: Sorry if I misunderstood but I got the impression that friends knew your best friend, and were asking, "So have you made out with her yet?" which I think is different from "Nice to meet you, are you two dating?" When I dine out with a male coworker waitstaff might assume we are dating because they don't know us and we are opposite sex, but our own established friends do not ask us, "So have you guys finally made out ha ha" and I think that's an important distinction.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 6:49 AM on October 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I would consider this a fundamental incompatibility, given that you made a reasonable compromise and she still balked.

And yes, only dating people who are ok with you spending time with your best friend might narrow your dating prospects a bit, but that's a good thing. That's the reason people should have defined "dealbreakers." You're looking to find someone compatible with your life, not to date as many people as possible.

It's possible that you can work this out with your girlfriend, but I think you should go on the trip regardless.
posted by jaguar at 6:50 AM on October 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


Go camping.

Don't let a girlfriend of a few weeks ruin your best friendship.

It's your girlfriend's problem, not yours, and she's got a big problem. If she can't respect your friendships, even enthusiastically encourage you to have strong relationships outside of your romantic relationships, she doesn't have your best interests in mind. She's putting her sexist jealousy ahead of your support network.

Don't let a girlfriend cut you off from your friends, as that is what she is doing.

Not to be dramatic, but if this were a new boyfriend demanding his girlfriend not see her male friends everyone here would be screaming "first sign of abuse is to isolate from the support network of friends and family!".

I'm furious at your girlfriend for disrespecting your friendships and threatening your support system.
posted by littlewater at 7:03 AM on October 17, 2015 [21 favorites]


I would personally be very uncomfortable with it if my new boyfriend went camping with his long-term female friend, yes. I also would be uncomfortable going camping at all with a newish boyfriend, so there's that. (Maybe your new gf feels this way, too. Did she actually use the word "insulted"?) A lot of people, as the replies show, feel this way, and we're not "controlling, insecure, scary" people, we're just not comfortable with our significant others taking overnight trips alone with the opposite sex.
posted by WesterbergHigh at 7:06 AM on October 17, 2015 [15 favorites]


> And yes, only dating people who are ok with you spending time with your best friend might narrow your dating prospects a bit, but that's a good thing. That's the reason people should have defined "dealbreakers." You're looking to find someone compatible with your life, not to date as many people as possible.

Just want to emphasize this. There may be nothing "wrong" with your girlfriend, but she certainly sounds insecure and controlling; she probably needs to find someone who will never give her any reason to worry (i.e., someone who basically hangs out only with her), and you probably need to find someone who understands that men can have good friendships with women that have nothing to do with sex (as I have all my life, sheesh).
posted by languagehat at 7:08 AM on October 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


I absolutely believe that men and women can be just friends. I also believe that people can be in denial about their feelings, and that people can cheat and lie about it. I also believe that attraction can be sneaky and pop up out of nowhere. I would be uncomfortable if I were your girlfriend. What is the difference, from where she stands and the information she has, between "I am going on a completely platonic trip with my BF and you can totally trust me" and "I am going to cheat on you and lie about it and gaslight you"? At this point, she doesn't know you that well, and if she's been cheated on in the past this may be a sensitive point for her. She may be envisioning a future in which you dump her for the BF, and everyone rolls their eyes and says "Sheesh, they were going on 'platonic' camping trips and you believed that??"

However, if you are having this kind of conflict early on, it may be best to end the relationship. The fact that she is insulted by your suggestion that she come along is kind of baffling, unless we're missing some detail. You could ask her about it - why she would be insulted - and see if you get an explanation that makes sense. But this doesn't look good. Sorry.
posted by bunderful at 7:27 AM on October 17, 2015 [14 favorites]


I've been on both ends of this, so I can relate to you and your girlfriend. It's biologically normal, however, since we're SUPPOSED to be above our baseline biological urges, she needs to reevaluate her feelings with a bit of logic:

It's REALLY not that easy to have sex with someone you've known for a long time and consider and trust as a friend. Yeah people do dumb things when they're drunk or desperate but unless you're someone who has little to no empathy and you really ARE just trying to get into her pants via friendship (ew) it takes a LOT to shift from friends to fuckbuddies to partners. That takes time and a restructuring of relationships and boundaries and risks. Even in instances where there is physical attraction between close, cross-sex friends (been there, it's also normal and unavoidable) I don't really think its possible to shift from FRIENDS to PARTNERS successfully on a whim. I can't honestly picture myself in a relationship with my close male friends. I either set out to be romantically involved with someone from the get go or they're friends. Or maybe that's just me. I tried it recently and it was a disaster.

If she's not worried about SEX HAPPENING then she is jealous that you have a history/bond that she does not share and that you'll eventually fall in love or something. That's not healthy thinking either, and she'll continue to isolate you out of her own insecurities. This basically happened with a friend of mine, and I've done my best to respect his girlfriend despite wanting to further my bond with him, but she's done her best to basically push us apart. Does that mean you're not a good match? I don't know. It means she has some introspecting to do. I want to say that a partner that really loves and cares about you and is secure with their own sense of self would cherish the fact that you have people you are bonded with no matter the gender. I also wonder what her friendships look like...
posted by Young Kullervo at 7:35 AM on October 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


People have strong feelings about this. I see both sides.

This should have ended when you invited SOs along, though. I will echo everyone else that her response just doesn't make a lick of sense. Does she hate camping or something? Maybe you could just invite your female friend's SO?

Shrug. Decide if this is worth it to you. Her feelings are her feelings, have some actual basis in many people's reality, and I see no sense in "castigating the witch" over them. However, the crucial element in any good relationship is sharing your feelings (non-judgmentally) and coming to a compromise by finding real, concrete solutions. Not communicating and not compromising is not a relationship, it's one person ordering around another.

If you really like her attempt to talk it out again, I guess. If she's actually crazy and won't have a healthy conversation about this, move on.
posted by quincunx at 7:38 AM on October 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Several weeks of dating, and she's trying to lay down the law? I don't think so!

Not everyone likes camping. If the girlfriend doesn't want to go that's fine, but she has no grounds for telling you who you can't camp with if she's not interested.
posted by zadcat at 7:45 AM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


> I would be uncomfortable if I were your girlfriend.

Being uncomfortable is totally natural; there are many things that make us uncomfortable when we get into a new relationship of any kind and have to navigate unexpected differences. But there's all the difference in the world between "This makes me uncomfortable, let's talk about it (and hopefully you can make me less uncomfortable, because I want to feel comfortable with you)" and "This makes me uncomfortable, so you'd better do as I say or else."
posted by languagehat at 8:00 AM on October 17, 2015 [58 favorites]


You are absolutely not wrong. You are more than welcome to have a best friend of the opposite gender/of a gender you're attracted to, and to travel solo with that person. It was kind of you to try and accommodate your girlfriend's feelings, but she shot you down. Ugh.

If you really really want to make things work with the girlfriend, I'd suggest introducing girlfriend and best friend over drinks or a meal or something, to show GF that there is no sexual tension between you and BF. If that doesn't take, then you have to ask yourself whose support and love means more to you: that of your longtime best friend, or your new girl friend who apparently doesn't trust you to keep it in your pants over a camping trip.

Honestly, I feel really sorry for people like your GF (and some commenters here...) who limit their close friends to people that belong to a gender they aren't into romantically. I mean, that's reducing the number of potential platonic loved ones by a significant amount. How sad.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 8:13 AM on October 17, 2015 [10 favorites]


I would wonder if the new person I'm dating who wants to go on a camping trip with a friend of a different gender didn't have an unconscious agenda of high drama. That doesn't seem to be your intent at all, yet, there it is. Jealousy, possessiveness and competition. I would think most people coming on this scenario in a new relationship are going to react somewhat similarly. I've lived through some high drama and it sucked. I would think if you are going to do this successfully with new partners, you are going to have to make a practice of disclosing this right off the bat as in you have a lot of friendships with women, have firm boundaries and intend to keep your friends in your life, which is your right to do. As to your GF, this may be a no-win fail. They are probably unable to assess this rationally at this point and no amount of talking is going to change that. If you had been open about this aspect of your life at the outset, they would have had a chance to clearly understand the territory and make that decision with the terms clearly set. The only way I see it working is you state to her clearly you are willing to cancel the trip if the GF is wiling to meet your BF on different terms so she can be a participant in the relationship instead of the angry outsider wondering WTF. If she can manage her jealousy or reboot this, good to go, if not then time to move on. The fact that she sees your camping invitation as an insult is also a red flag if only because she may not be a camping type person and you are so she will not want to share a major part of your interests.
posted by diode at 8:15 AM on October 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh this is so complicated. This stuff is a continuum and you're getting responses from both extreme ends when almost certainly the reality is somewhere in the middle.

I had a boyfriend with some female friends and some male friends, you know, he was a person with friends. And then one day he sent me this weird email about hanging out with one of his female friends from work, and he stressed twice that he wasn't going to have sex with her.

Oh man, I am not a jealous person, but something about that email raised my hackles. It was just weird. So I said to him hey, this makes me uncomfortable. I don't know why, but something about this feels weird and I would like to meet her first.

This did not end well. He felt that I was being scary and controlling. I felt like he was not respecting me or my feelings. It was a bad scene.

And neither of us was really wrong, I don't think. I can see how some people would think he was wrong. I can see how some people might say I was controlling. But the truth is more nuanced.

I think the truth here is more nuanced. The issue I see is that your girlfriend was upset with the compromise. That raises a flag for me. On the flip side, I can totally see her point of view. Camping is very intimate. And the way you described your friend was odd to me and I'm not dating you. I wonder if her alarm bells went off just like mine did in my own similar situation.

She doesn't know you well enough to trust you. After I knew my boyfriend for a long time I can look back on that whole email situation and laugh. Now I know that I had nothing to worry about at all. And I know that his attempts to reassure me and his reactions to me were borne out of bad experiences, and that my concern was borne out of my own bad experiences. But there was no way I could have known these things then.

I think framing this as reasonable or unreasonable, as right or as wrong, that's going to make this more difficult. Accept that neither of you is right here and that this is a complicated and nuanced situation.

I don't know what I would do if I were you. She has put you in a strange corner here. Is there another compromise - dinner together with all four people, maybe - that would help? Have you asked her something like "how can we both make sure that we get what we need while also making sure that we give one another the freedom to be ourselves in this situation?" I would talk with her. If she continues to be unrelenting and unreasonable and unwilling to compromise in any way - you have your answer. A good relationship gives everyone in it the space to be themselves while also respecting the other person and their needs.

Take care.
posted by sockermom at 8:30 AM on October 17, 2015 [29 favorites]


I somewhat understand if your GF doesn't want to meet your BF the first time during a camping trip. But it's important to know if she doesn't want to meet her at all. That's a bad sign.

And this has happened to me. My friend's GF at the time refused to meet me, and my friend cut me out of his life for a year, which he thought would make her happy, But, I later learned, I was just a symptom and not a cause--she was jealous of everything, including fictional TV characters, and my friend ended up miserable in that relationship until he ended it.

The above is a pretty extreme example, and jealousy and envy are perfectly normal, but you should keep your eyes open. Don't assume that if you do what your girlfriend wants you to do in regards to this one trip, it will be enough.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:33 AM on October 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


Most here agree this is a difference in perspective and we see the world through the lense of our own experience. In diving deeper, I don't think the conflict is about a lack of trust on both sides, it's about respect for what is important to each of you. She may be feeling disrespected that you'd not considered her feelings and the thought hadn't occurred to you. You may be feeling disrespected for your philosophy on friendships and believe you'd be capable of crossing a line you've never crossed. I agree that once you offered to bring her along, it would have resolved, at least partially, the discomfort I'd have with this. It's also understandable that in one's most vulnerable state, that message of inclusion was not well translated in her mind.

Sprinkling some empathy into this can help. You may need to model this without blame or shame before she can join you in the emotion of this conversation. Learning about what's beneath what makes you both upset about this will draw you closer. Don't throw this relationship away so quickly.

You're right on with being inclusive, introducing your best friend to your new girlfriend, and keeping the conversation going.
posted by happysocks at 8:33 AM on October 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Honestly, I feel really sorry for people like your GF (and some commenters here...) who limit their close friends to people that belong to a gender they aren't into romantically. I mean, that's reducing the number of potential platonic loved ones by a significant amount. How sad.

I can only speak for myself, but feeling uncomfortable with the SO/BF overnight camping trip are does not indicate in any way limiting myself to close friends that belong to a gender I'm not romatically into, it just means I don't have sleepovers with them.
posted by WesterbergHigh at 8:33 AM on October 17, 2015 [26 favorites]


Yeah, girlfriend of several weeks is wrong. She has every right, as many many many have said, to feel uncomfortable. That's fine. But asking you to straight up cancel the trip is really fucked.

I can be paranoid and jealous on occasion, but those are my feelings. I can't imagine making those the problem of someone I've been dating a short enough period I count in weeks.
posted by French Fry at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2015 [11 favorites]


The early weeks and months of a relationship is the time when we reveal ourselves to each other. We say, "this is me, what do you think?"

You showed a part of yourself — an important one, it seems — and she said, "NOPE."

When I've been in her situation, a situation where I learned something about a new partner that made me go NOPE, I've ended the relationship. Asking this new person in my life to change never occurrs to me.

When people show you who they are, believe them. You've shown yourself to be someone who values close friendships with another gender and she doesn't like it. She's shown herself to be someone who doesn't want to date actual you, but a modified-for-her-needs version. Do you like that?
posted by wemayfreeze at 9:38 AM on October 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


if it helps you to make your decision about what to do next you could try and find out what other things are on the list of behaviours unacceptable to GF before you get any further into the relationship. It would be astonishing if this was the only one.
posted by biffa at 10:11 AM on October 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Some of my closest and oldest friends are men, but I have to admit that I would probably feel a little uncomfortable about this in your girlfriend's position. But the way she's reacting feels a bit off to me. There's a difference between saying "this makes me feel uncomfortable and no, I'm not really keen on the idea of a camping double-date with my brand-new boyfriend and his two friends either" and being insulted by the latter. She's not offering a lot of room for understanding or compromise.

Also: realistically, if you do cancel at this late date, it may well harm your relationship with your best friend. If you've already spent money then she probably has as well. Ideally, she'd be understanding, but people are people, and she'll probably be a bit hurt. If you'd been with your girlfriend for a long time and were seeing her as a life partner, that might be an acceptable trade-off, but a few weeks is barely a relationship, and doesn't really seem worth harming your closest friendship for.
posted by lunasol at 10:23 AM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Healthy romantic relationships generally make all of the other relationships in our lives stronger. People gradually losing their friends and support networks as they age and settle down with one main life partner who meets most of their socio-emotional needs (until they sometimes stop meeting those needs) is A Thing. It gets really common for men your age and older to gradually begin to feel socially isolated and lonely as they are able to spend less time with friends. So I say: hold on tight to your healthy best friendship. I'll note that it is much, much harder to replace an alienated Best Friend than it is to replace a girlfriend of only a few weeks. There are plenty of women out there to date (such as my younger self was) who will actually have a thrilled-for-you reaction to you going on fun camping trips with your BF, because they'll have their own life and fun stuff going on with their own friends. You owe it to yourself to get out there and find somebody like that.
posted by hush at 10:59 AM on October 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


For me, there is no blanket answer to this question-- it's case-by-case. At first read your GF is coming off poorly here, but reading your question again, you're not coming off so great either. You've left a lot out, maybe hoping there will be some sort of objective consensus that lines up with what you want, but as you can see it's not that easy.

You don't have to "cross the line" and actually have sex for a relationship to be inappropriate or disrespectful. Some people really enjoy going right up to that line, torturing their partners but getting off on a technicality because they haven't had sex, so the concerned partner is jealous or controlling if they raise objections. I don't know if you're doing that of course, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that your girlfriend would pick up on it if so. Inviting GF along doesn't undo this quasi-relationship dynamic-- it's only inviting her to watch.

Some of your phrasing might bug me if I were your girlfriend. You seem to sort of elevate your friendship, praising its "trust and honesty," using the phrase "attracted to" (I know what you're saying, but yiiiikes), reminiscing on "awesome adventures." It seems almost mythological-- what girlfriend could live up to that? If you speak about your friend this way with your GF, especially if you don't talk about men this way (do you?), it can set up a competitive dynamic, which is corrosive. Especially if you deny the responsibility of having set it up in the first place.

And you're saying your friends (who have presumably known you longer and better than your GF and who probably have no jealousy or control issues with you) have raised the same issue-- man. I don't know you, I can't tell, but I feel like I have known tons of guys who kinda play naive, kinda get off on that, and I can't rule that out based on how you have reported your side of the story.

Now. It may be the case that your GF is just incompatible with you, or that she is in fact controlling. Let your gut be your guide. End it if so. But even still, it wouldn't hurt you to take a more probing look at how this friendship fits into your life-- does it leave enough room for a romantic relationship to thrive?
posted by kapers at 11:01 AM on October 17, 2015 [89 favorites]


I'm a lady with a male best friend (MBF), and one of my husband's best friends is female (FBF). My MBF's wife had to get used to our friendship, and I had to get used to my husband's friendship with his FBF. The guys both had to put their foot down about having close female friends - "We have been friends a long time, and we will be staying friends so if you have a problem with that, that's on you. You are welcome to come with me to visit, but I'm going regardless."

I think it would be a good idea to see if your FBF is willing to bring her boyfriend along anyway, regardless of whether your GF comes or not. If he does go and your GF still has a problem with this trip, re-evaluate your romantic relationship.
posted by lizbunny at 11:44 AM on October 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


Kapers, beautifully expressed!
posted by happysocks at 11:45 AM on October 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


No. Your girlfriend is saying she's uncomfortable with this situation, but there's certainly no such rule in the world about this. Heck, I have gone to a multiday conference in another city with a married friend (whose wife I am also friends with), and we shared a room. If there is genuinely no sexual tension, good boundaries for both people, and no desire to stray on either part, there's no reason not do to things with your friends of the gender you're usually interested in romantically.

So, it's not that your girlfriend is "right," she can't be "right" about something like this. But she's not comfortable, which is the bigger issue. Personally, if this shoe were on my foot and I wanted to go camping with a male friend and my husband had concerns, I would be pretty reluctant to change my plans based on what I see as an unfounded concern - but I would certainly try to deal with/get at the underlying concern and make it clear that when we're talking about the possibility of straying, we're talking about my boundaries and morals being in question, not those of whomever I'm with. That can only be solved between us - but I would definitely feel very much overly controlled if I were expected to comply with an imaginary "rule" like this because of my partner's fears, and I would want to work through that with them, because i couldn't live like that.
posted by Miko at 12:13 PM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, girlfriend of several weeks is wrong. She has every right, as many many many have said, to feel uncomfortable. That's fine. But asking you to straight up cancel the trip is really fucked.

Very much this.

I think actually the whole When Harry Met Sally Question Time is a red herring. It wouldn't matter a bit what the conflicting opinions were. The real and only issue, the actual conflict, is: do we adjust our longstanding parts of ourselves upon request of someone we have known for a short time?

We. Do. Not.

Nor do we ask others to do this. Sheesh. If you don't like the way someone lives their life, move on. Don't demand change for your own comfort. Who are you, the Queen of England? (Excepting horrid meanness, and then demand change while moving on anyway.)
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 12:17 PM on October 17, 2015 [12 favorites]


Another thought: I think these kinds of fears are also quite tied up with gendered expectations and ideas about sexuality, so if you have thoughts on that that are important to you for other reasons, you might want to share them now. Like, it always amuses me that people with a jealous streak on this kind of question are only worried about "things happening" when the people in question are of the opposite sex. I wonder if they're aware that same-sex romance can also pop up in the most surprising places, and that they maybe should ask the same kinds of questions when it's an all-male trip? Or that an all-male trip might be more likely to engage in borderline or over-the-line behavior with women encountered wherever they're going than a mixed group of men and women would? Or if they have thought much about sexuality and its fluidity at all, or accept that kind of variance in others more than a shallow level? Also, are they capable of believing that people who are friends but are separately partnered, even when they are attracted to each other (it happens all the time!), can have sufficient boundaries to prevent any disrespectful behavior or damage to their respective romantic relationships? I find these kinds of perspectives on how people behave around issues of sexuality and gender and attraction and risk important in a relationship. There is a set of assumptions underlying your girlfriend's fears, and depending on how you feel about those things, it might indicate you might have some basic differences regarding sexuality and gender.
posted by Miko at 12:36 PM on October 17, 2015 [15 favorites]


Its not always a question of right or wrong - its a question of whether you care about her feelings here. I think a good relationship is one in which it would bother you to make your partner unhappy and uncomfortable. Since it is new, it may be bad timing - you might not feel that way about her.

I also think I can understand what she means by saying the invitation is "insulting". She doesn't want to be tagging along as an afterthought. I think that's fair enough.

I definitely think that people can be just friends, but trying to see things from your partners side rather than justifying yourself is essential to a relationship.
posted by decathexis at 1:22 PM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I wish I could favorite kapers' answer a million times.

It's not just about whether you're going to "cross the line" with your BF. It's about whether the intimacy with your BF - which you describe in terms that are not typical for a regular ol' buddies situation - leaves room for romantic intimacy with someone else.

What I read here is that your GF senses that at the end of the day, the person you want to spend your special moments with is your BF. And you're not wrong to value your BF more than your recent GF! What you have with your BF is special and you're lucky to have it. But think about whether it leaves room for someone else to feel like they're really truly your partner and priority.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:26 PM on October 17, 2015 [25 favorites]


This is really illuminating - I have always been in the camp that doesn't stress about opposite gender friendships. My closest friend is female but we've always both felt this way and been sort of baffled by the other point of view and sometimes it's caused conflict with other women. I have a lot of male friends.. in my college days, I started to feel distinctly uncomfortable with the tendency of some of the women in our larger group to divide things up along gender lines so insistently & show those feelings of discomfort and lack of trust if you were close friends with a guy they were dating.

I feel like in this case, it's shitty to be expected to give in to this person you've known for all of a few weeks and ditch a a long-planned trip with the person you've shared a long and close friendship with for many years. And I really hate the attitude that grown adults are supposed to retreat into this conservative view of strictly adhering to appropriate behavior based on gender that feels to me like a throwback to the 50s or something. Ugh. I also blame the patriarchy and I think you should go on your trip.
posted by citron at 1:26 PM on October 17, 2015 [8 favorites]


I have the same problem with my friends in which my attractive and married Spanish teacher became a close friend. All my guy friends accuse me of trying to screw another man's wife. It's annoying.

I'm probably not that typical but my GF once went on a weekend trip with her ex (and a group of long term mutual friends). I could not make it myself and I told her to have fun. People I told about this were surprised towards my attitude about this, but you know what? I TRUSTED MY GIRLFRIEND!
posted by 4Lnqvv at 1:36 PM on October 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


She doesn't trust you, she's isolating you, she's not interested in compromise-overtures, you've noted odd sexism in her reactions... These sound like clear red flags of potential emotional abuse down the line.

Alternately, it could be a projection issue where she doesn't feel like she could be out camping with a male friend of hers without it turning into something. (She does have platonic male friends, right? If not, also a red flag)
posted by CrystalDave at 2:33 PM on October 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


My personal take on this is that I have a lot of close friendships with people of the opposite sex, but I also would not go on overnight trips alone with them (i.e. not as part of some larger group). But, you know, that's just me! Everyone gets to make up their own boundaries around this. I don't think your girlfriend is weirdly controlling, but I do think you guys maybe just have fundamentally different views on opposite-sex friendships. I would also find it weird that she was "insulted" by the double date idea -- maybe she hates camping or something and just doesn't want to do it, but it's odd to me that she was insulted by the idea. That's the main red flag I see here. Other than that, is just a matter of working out whether this is a dealbreaker for either one of you.
posted by rainbowbrite at 4:24 PM on October 17, 2015


I think your girlfriend is wrong here and while I can see both sides I also think she is objectively wrong. This sort of thing is a contributing factor to glass ceilings (how can I hire a woman in that position, all the wives would get jealous/assume something is going on) and homophobia (we can't have Gays on this team; they'd see my junk in the locker room and not be able to restrain themselves).

Leaving that aside you and your girlfriend have a fundamental lifestyle conflict here and working through that with a great chance of failure seems to be more than it's worth in a so far short term relationship. Especially considering the working it through process may lose you a long term friend which is a hard thing to recover from.
posted by Mitheral at 5:13 PM on October 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Why don't we look at this as an opportunity to grow and learn? I agree with mostly every one - I don't think you are being unreasonable. At the same time, as the gf, I probably wouldn't be thrilled about the camping trip.

But I would understand that that is my own little insecurity issue and I may share my feelings with you about it, or I may just keep it to myself and work on it.

It has been my relationship experience that when you cave into doing something you don't want to do over your partner's insecurities, things start getting unhealthy after that. So, carry forth with your plans.

But gently and lovingly tell your gf that you understand her fears, that you are not doing this to hurt her, that this is who you are and she can trust you and ... That you are going to go.

OK, she might freak out and dump you - but at least you'd know it wouldn't have worked out long term. But maybe, just maybe, she'll think things over and decide to try to see it your way and... Wouldn't that be interesting for your relationship?
posted by Locochona at 5:23 PM on October 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Seriously, consider kapers' comment though. Listen to that. I totally understand the impulse to be like "this lady is bonkers," but more than one person is picking up on the dynamic between you and your BF. Like kapers said, it's truly worth examining regardless of what happens with your GF.
posted by Ashen at 5:41 PM on October 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


Hi there! I'm a woman with a male best friend. I also have a boyfriend. And what's worse, I have a long history of having male friends, I have slept with male friends before, and a lot of these people know my boyfriend.

So this is territory I have traversed.

Frankly, being in a still kind of new relationship, and being in the somewhat complicated social situation described above, I probably would not go away on a trip one on one with a male friend. Especially since my boyfriend and I are talking about taking a weekend trip of our own, but we haven't actually done it yet. I feel like it would be sending the message that I prioritize adventures with (male) friends over my new relationships.

This is kind of hard, because of course we have all this received wisdom about "bros before hos", "If you wanna be my lover/you gotta get with my friends", etc. which says that it's bad to put romantic relationships before friendships. But on the other hand, yeah, it is important to put your partner first, at least early on when it's the honeymoon period and you're establishing the parameters of what you relationship is.

I agree that bringing her or inviting a third would be the obvious solution. But I also think that it might not be about being right, in this situation, but making your girlfriend feel comfortable. And skipping this one trip might be worth doing, for that reason.

On the other hand, if you had this trip already booked when you met your new girlfriend, she is being super unreasonable, yeah.
posted by Sara C. at 6:15 PM on October 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


I think it's reasonable of her to *feel* worried and even a bit insecure and it would be unreasonable of you to refuse to engage with her at all on her concerns. But it sounds like she has really different expectations of how relationships *and* friendships go and of what it means to be a "grown man" (and I would assume, conversely, a "grown woman"). All of that would give me great pause. This seems like a good opportunity to talk with her and get to know her better, which I think would give you a better idea of what you could do meet her halfway or if it even makes sense to try.
posted by Salamandrous at 6:43 PM on October 17, 2015


Not to be dramatic, but if this were a new boyfriend demanding his girlfriend not see her male friends everyone here would be screaming "first sign of abuse is to isolate from the support network of friends and family!".

I think this part needs to be interrogated some more, too. What's to say one party is more likely to initiate this "crossing the line" than the other? How many thought "he's not trustworthy" vs "she's not trustworthy"?

I mentioned above that i've been on both sides of this, but i've seen this be the beginnings of controlling isolation behavior and abuse when it was a man and a woman being uncomfortable with it. And yet the response is consistently so different. Yea, you'll get a spectrum, but when you're a man and your partner is a woman it leads with "well are you giving them a reason to be uncomfortable?" or "I can see where she's coming from" and when it's a woman receiving it from a man it tends to trend more towards "wow what an insecure controlling possibly abusive dude".

Pretty much, yea it's not as simple as just saying "yea the status quo is wrong". I think it's worth discussing this with her more in depth, and i also think that if you're uncomfortable with it that it's worth spending some more introspective time on why.

Your offer to bring her(and your friends new partner!) along was a totally good faith legit response. "Well why didn't you invite me in the first place", in my opinion, starts to burrow deep in to no-win-situation ridiculousness. That strikes me, and i'm trying to be as civil as i can here, a very high school juvenile way to respond to an invitation in that context. I myself have been guilty of it in the past and i'm disappointed in myself retrospectively.

I, like others here, have completely lost friends for long periods of time to a partner acting this way. While some might just be uncomfortable with it because they are, there are enough people out there of any gender for whom this really is the tip of the iceberg of a lot of just, messed up ways of participating in a relationship. I have friendships that are still recovering from this sort of thing.

Behavior that, regardless of it's internal mechanics, leads to one partner being isolated from their friends is just so much more socially acceptable when the person on the receiving end is a man. And in the end, "i'm not comfortable with that" from the other side isn't really enough of a response.
posted by emptythought at 7:02 PM on October 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


I think your girlfriend is wrong here and while I can see both sides I also think she is objectively wrong. This sort of thing is a contributing factor to glass ceilings (how can I hire a woman in that position, all the wives would get jealous/assume something is going on) and homophobia (we can't have Gays on this team; they'd see my junk in the locker room and not be able to restrain themselves).

Yes, this. I didn't include this in my answer since it wasn't so relevant to the question, but as a woman whose jobs have often been in traditionally male areas I have been so burned by this attitude. I have literally not been invited to business/social events (or felt I must decline) because "the wives might be jealous".

Leaving aside the issue of whether the gf is right or wrong to be insecure, it just seems like such a pointless position to take. The OP will cheat or he will not, and it will have nothing to do with him going on a camping trip with his best friend. This trip has no bearing at all on his long term fidelity prospects.
posted by frumiousb at 7:30 PM on October 17, 2015 [12 favorites]


GF doesn't want me to go because "grown men in relationships don't go camping alone with other women". Is she right?


Ok, in the larger sense no I don't think she's right. There's no rule that says you can't have opposite sex relationships, and I agree it's a bit retro to think men and women can't be friends without hooking up/having sex at some point.

However, you've only been dating a few weeks, she doesn't really know what's up with you and friend and I can see how she'd be uncomfortable, especially as your friends are ribbing you about BF (even if GF doesn't know about this specifically, it does point to a certain possibly inappropriate closeness).

Also, I can understand why she didn't want to come on the camping trip. I went on a camping trip a year ago with some good friends, one was in a bad mood and was angry with how I laid out food and any minor thing I did, I never understood what I did wrong but was stuck fucking camping with those people. No one else talked to me either because everyone was mad with her in solidarity. It was weird, and I would have given anything to get the hell out of there. So I can see why she wouldn't want to sign up after just a few weeks to hang out with you, your best lady friend she's never met, and lady friend's boyfriend.

I'd say just don't go, have these women meet in a much more low key environment, and if there's still friction with this friendship after some months, then it might be time to re examine the relationship.
posted by zutalors! at 8:40 PM on October 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm a little stunned by all the people saying that this is perfectly OK and your girlfriend is being unreasonable, that her discomfort is dump-worthy. It's a little insensitive of you to throw this ridiculous challenge at her so early into knowing you - MOST people cannot have that kind of deep platonic relationship with someone of the sex and gender they're attracted to without things blurring into cheat-y territory. Lots of people say they do and then end up cheating because they were kidding themselves. Even if you never touch her, who says you're not emotionally unfaithful, which for a lot of people is just as upsetting?

She doesn't know you well enough to understand how you operate on things like this, and she has no other model than the other 99% of people she's ever met, for whom this would be unbelievably sketchy behavior.

I've had close platonic relationships like this. I know your point of view. But honestly, you will probably eventually have to make a choice about whether to cool those relationships or cool your romantic ones. No one likes to feel like they play second fiddle to some "best friend" even just emotionally and mentally. Hell, a lot of people aren't even that accepting of a non-sexually-attractive best friend! How many times do you hear "my SO is my best friend." Lots of people want that and don't want to settle for less.

You may someday find a woman who is OK with this relationship you have, but you should be aware of the strong chance you might not. This girl might even have been alright with it, had you given her some time to get comfortable with you before throwing your "bestest of friends much better than you" (that's what it would sound like from her POV, not what you mean) in her face.

My husband was not OK with those kinds of situations. So I stopped doing them. I see those friends in mixed company, in public places, and in daylight, and enjoy myself no less for it.

Also, while inviting her was a good move, lots of cheaters would do exactly this to dispel suspicion on the assumption that the response would be "oh, I guess it's fine, no I don't want want to, enjoy your trip." If she's ever been hurt, cheated on, or has any reason to be wary, she might be imagining this scenario.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 9:36 PM on October 17, 2015 [24 favorites]


> You may someday find a woman who is OK with this relationship you have, but you should be aware of the strong chance you might not

Ridiculous. This is not the 1950s; lots of people are OK with this sort of thing. See above comments for examples.

> My husband was not OK with those kinds of situations. So I stopped doing them.

Well, that was your choice. I'm glad it's worked out for you, but many people would not be willing to make it, and your choice isn't necessarily right for the poster.
posted by languagehat at 7:32 AM on October 18, 2015 [15 favorites]


I completely agree with kapers and gloriouslyincandescent.

I don't think either one of you is "objectively" right or wrong. However, I think that what you're asking of this new relationship is not appropriate, simply because you two haven't had enough time to build trust and mutual understanding. The only way this would fly with most women would probably be if you happened to have come across a lady who 1) is extremely trusting [which, honestly, for this early on, would be odd.. since trust is earned..] 2) has has own male best friend she goes on camping trips with or 3) has the same philosophy toward friendships as you do. I don't think there are many women who would be okay with this two weeks into dating.

The fact that you say you are attracted to this friend and that neither one of you would "cross the line" seems to indicate that this isn't purely platonic. Would you mention the possibility of "crossing the line" with a male friend? No? Then why would that be an issue with your female best friend? If you were really platonic, then there wouldn't be a line to cross, because you wouldn't be attracted to each other in a sexual or romantic way.

If there is sexual or romantic tension or attraction, then the friendship isn't 100% platonic. If it's not platonic, that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it does mean that your girlfriend is right to be concerned.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:55 AM on October 18, 2015 [9 favorites]


Looking at some of the other answers, I'm thinking she likely just doesn't believe this is a platonic relationship and that's why she sounds the way she does. You don't say whether or not you guys have had the exclusivity conversation yet, or what your respective dating histories are. But it's really common when you go exclusive to have other, less serious relationships that you end or phase out. Otherwise there would be no need for that conversation, right? Some people don't handle it gracefully and in fact some people are not honest about it. If you've dated and not been exclusive, the whole transition requires some trust. And if you are watching someone end other relationships to be with you, it can also make you wonder because odds are you'll be in those shoes someday.

Like some other people have pointed out above, this is not in reality one of those situations, but you haven't been together that long and she may have past experiences and be thinking, "Oh, this looks an awful lot like that other thing again." Not that that gives her a right to be disrespectful, but her attitude may make a little more sense in that light.
posted by BibiRose at 8:11 AM on October 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


FWIW, my own response to "Why should I trust you?" would be, "Have I given you any reason not to trust me?" Everything else would depend on the conversation that followed.

OP, there may not be an absolute right or wrong way to to respond to this situation but as you can see, with some people you will never win because no matter what you do or say (or don't do or say) you might still be a lying lout with bad intentions. There may be 1000 legitimate reasons why your girlfriend might have trust issues, but if this is where she is coming from, if she is starting a new relationship with so much distrust that you have to prove you are not lying, I don't think she is ready for a relationship. If you've only known each other for a few weeks, maybe a better option for the two of you would be to step back from the BF/GF status and go back to dating, which is when people usually get to know each other and build mutual trust.

That doesn't mean you never have to make sacrifices to help your SO (you do and you should.) If the idea for this trip came up six months into your relationship it would be one thing, but her request is way too much, way too soon. What I haven't seen mentioned yet is how cancelling this trip might affect your friend. Did she take time of work? Pay anything at all towards this trip yet that she would have to forfeit? The reality is, your girlfriend is telling both of you to cancel the trip.

Full disclosure: I have lost a couple of good guy friends who were told by new girlfriends that they could not be friends with me anymore. Those relationships did not last, but our friendships never recovered. Also, I've found when (otherwise mature) friends do the whole "are you guys doing it??" thing it's more because they want us to be together.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:59 AM on October 18, 2015 [15 favorites]


Also, while inviting her was a good move, lots of cheaters would do exactly this to dispel suspicion on the assumption that the response would be "oh, I guess it's fine, no I don't want want to, enjoy your trip." If she's ever been hurt, cheated on, or has any reason to be wary, she might be imagining this scenario.

Yeah, I came here to say basically this. It has nothing to do with being "in the 1950s" as another commenter said (which is incredibly dismissive of what could very well be a legitimate concern) and more I think to do with personal experience. If she's been cheated on in the past that could be where the distrust is coming from, not that it is necessarily justified in that case. For myself I would be highly suspicious of a dude who had a close "friendship " with a woman he was physically attracted to and that would probably be a deal breaker for me.
posted by a strong female character at 12:16 PM on October 18, 2015 [7 favorites]


Reading through the variety of answers here, I'm wondering if this a question of one's default trust setting. Some people are of the "trust is earned" variety and others are of the "trust by default" variety, and others of us are "trust but verify."
posted by DarlingBri at 1:44 PM on October 18, 2015 [5 favorites]


As a counterweight to the "too soon" idea, I think it's more helpful to do your normal individual activities early in the relationship rather than springing them on someone once a partnership status quo has been established. I could easily see an untrusting partner twisting your decision to wait to go camping into a suspicion that you never wanted to spend time with that friend before so why now?
posted by jaguar at 1:52 PM on October 18, 2015 [12 favorites]


I don't find this particularly complicated at all: your girlfriend is setting up for "the only woman allowed in your life is me, and maybe your mother." (That isn't me being sexist--many men do exactly the same to their female partners, and it's equally unacceptable.)

The thing for me is this: I'm gay. Most of my friends are too. And of my closest, nearest and dearest, the majority are people I've been in relationships with. The moment a partner tells me I'm not allowed to be friends with them is the last moment I will be with that partner.

Sure, it's not unreasonable for her to be concerned, given societal messaging about Who Is Allowed To Be Friends With Whom. It is unreasonable for her not to trust you without reasons, let alone appealing to some nonsense The Rules bullshit like "grown men in relationships don't go camping alone with other women."

"This woman is my best friend. We hang out together. Neither of us is interested in each other in anything other than a friendship capacity. You can believe that and this relationship can continue, or you can choose to believe otherwise, in which case I'm really sorry, but you are not going to dictate who I can and cannot be friends with based on nebulous 'rules' about who can be friends with whom. If there is a specific concern I am willing to address it; I am not willing to lose my best friend."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:01 PM on October 18, 2015 [13 favorites]


As yet another datapoint, I'd be perfectly cool with my husband going on this trip with his close female friend. I trust him and he's wonderful and I am happy to do this. However, rewind our relationship years to when we had been together only a few weeks, and I feel distinctly uncomfortable with the same man going on the same trip with the same woman.

Our level of commitment to each other would be still in the figuring out stages, I wouldn't have the rock solid trust that I have in him now, even though I would have trusted him with things generally. I would feel uncomfortable with him going on a trip with someone I've never met, especially a woman, if I'd never seen their dynamic together.

And I think people are reacting badly to her being "insulted" that you suggested she come along, but if you guys aren't spending constant time together yet, you're not seeing her without her game face on, except for maybe a few minutes in the morning or something, if me and someone were at that stage and they were like "oh, you just come CAMPING to solve this, where I will see you all makeup-less and gross and smelly and we have to spend an unprecedented amount of time together, maybe doing something you don't like or maybe haven't done, and we're tired and hungry and not in the best circumstances and this will be an important test of our relationship and we will do it with an audience of someone who may or may not be in love with me and who I value the opinion of highly and you've never met before." I might be a little insulted with this as your compromise.

I am of the opinion that you should buy her flowers and sit her down and explain to her that you think she's really really great and you really think this could be going somewhere, and that you want to make this work, but you're not willing to compromise on this friendship or even on this trip as you've really been looking forward to it. Is there anything you could possibly do to make her feel more comfortable? you're sure that as she gets to know you better she'll come to trust you implicitly as you deserve and will live up to, but for now, she might have to take a small leap of faith on you. And then kiss the heck out of her and tell her how she is the most attractive woman you've ever met and you are just as excited to get back from your trip as you are to go on it so you can continue to get to know such an amazing girlfriend that you have.

But I love over-the-top reassurance of love and respect and trustworthiness when I have tiny nagging fears, so ymmv, of course.
posted by euphoria066 at 8:37 PM on October 18, 2015 [11 favorites]


My best friend's a man. We used to date, briefly, then went back to being best friends. We've been on quite a few camping trips alone together since we dated, and it's been platonic and fine. The only tension of any sort was over who forgot to bring the lantern battery, and goddamnit stop poking the fire for fun or it'll go out.

I think your offer to include your girlfriend and your best friend's bloke was a reasonable compromise. Your girlfriend's reaction to the compromise, though, seems weird. If she's only been in the picture a few weeks, this doesn't bode well. I'd wonder what else she was going to try to limit me doing that's only a crime on her planet.
posted by culfinglin at 1:18 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think the problem here is not that you have a female best friend - it's that you have a female best friend that you still, so many comments later, haven't told us you're not attracted to. In fact, you've said quite the opposite.

Most of my friends are men, and I've stripped down in front of platonic male buddies - but there is a line, and that line is "one member of the duo has some attraction to the other." If you have ever thought you might be interested in that friend if circumstances were different, this is not a platonic friend. Whether a friend is platonic or not isn't about whether you've actually bumped uglies or are planning to - it's about whether you /want/ to.
posted by corb at 2:19 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think the problem here is not that you have a female best friend - it's that you have a female best friend that you still, so many comments later, haven't told us you're not attracted to.

Just want to point out that this is an anonymous post, so the OP's silence is not necessarily an endorsement of the responses.
posted by thetortoise at 2:40 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]


Fair point - OP, if you need to update, the mods can help you do this.
posted by corb at 2:44 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


Reading through the variety of answers here, I'm wondering if this a question of one's default trust setting. Some people are of the "trust is earned" variety and others are of the "trust by default" variety, and others of us are "trust but verify."

I can definitely see this, but i think the point that some of us are also coming at it from is "There's a basic level of trust needed to start a healthy relationship. What exactly constitutes this varies from person to person, but below that you drift in to unreasonable expectations territory".

When everyone starts discussing now/later catch-22 sort of situations it really gets my hackles up that the concern person may just not have enough baseline trust they're willing to give to even start something healthy. Being that unwilling to invest can be really unfair to the other party.
posted by emptythought at 2:49 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Update from the anonymous OP:
Thanks everyone for such helpful advice. I have spoken with my friends about it too, and they are all telling me that GF is not worthy of my time and that I am far too trustworthy to be with someone who has major trust and jealousy issues. In addition to GF's strange need to try to control my life this early in our relationship, she has been snooping my BFF on Facebook and making assumptions about some of BFF's photos (and I'm not even on FB). Then she went through some items in my home when I stepped out for a moment and had the nerve to accuse me of lying (it turns out... it was my roommate's things!). I can't be with someone who is going to question my every move, my friendships, and my integrity.

For those of you who think there's something beyond platonic with BFF, you're wrong. There's nothing that I do with her that I don't do with my male friends. I said I am attracted to her because I'm attracted to all of my friends. That's why we're friends. I see my friends as people who love and appreciate me -- not as potential sex partners. To me there is no "if" about it -- "if we were drunk", "if things were different" -- that's not how I view my friends, especially my BFF. Our friendship is too important.

At the moment, GF is out of town until later this week so I'm trying to figure out how to break this off or if there is even anything worth salvaging. I thought I at least owe her the decency to break up with her in person. But now I'm not so sure. I can see it going really badly, so I'm considering a phone call for my own sanity (especially with all of her snooping and distrust). Advice?
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:59 AM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]


This would have been helpful information to know, but I can see why you might try not to unfairly influence the responses.

I'm almost always an "in person" person, but 1) that may be a generational thing and 2) it's only been three weeks. In this case I vote for phone, or maybe ask to come over "because we need to talk" which is usually understood to be the precursor to the break-up conversation. I would not invite her back to your house because ironically she has given you reason to distrust her.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:28 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


There is nothing here to salvage. She has accused you of being untrustworthy and then turned around and snooped through your things and levelled accusations at you about what she found! What in that dynamic could you possibly want to salvage??? She is not going to change who she fundamentally is.

Also I predict that no matter how you do this, it's going to be spun as "You're breaking up with me so you can fuck her on your fucking camping trip!" It's been three weeks. You don't owe anyone anything after three weeks. Ring her up and tell her "I'm sure you come by your trust issues honestly and are doing what you think you need to do to protect yourself, but it's too much for me and I'm out. I'm sorry its ending this way and I wish you all the best."
posted by DarlingBri at 8:32 AM on October 20, 2015 [23 favorites]


Oh, man. While I hope my prior response is helpful to anyone in or confused by these sort of "borderline" romance-esque friendships that can inhibit the growth of true romantic relationships that I was talking about, that advice doesn't apply in your case-- this person is straight-up emotionally abusive and I think you owe yourself your own sanity before you owe her a "proper" breakup. I still feel for her, her mind is a tortuous place, but nothing gives her the right to treat you this way.

Phone is fine. Just get it over with. Before she comes to town expecting you're still her BF. I would be VERY light on explanations. She's not going to take it well so just be calm, cool, kind (if you feel like it), quick, and don't engage beyond the breakup call.

Snooping into your roommate's stuff within 3 weeks of meeting you? I can't...what...I just...no.

Have fun camping.
posted by kapers at 9:05 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


Yeah, with the snooping you now have enough data to know what kind of person she is. And she is not a person you want to date. Well, at least, I know I would not want to date her - that shit is not ok.

Phone is fine. It's fine. You don't need to drag this along any more, and it's just not going to be healthy for you to be with her any longer.

Take care.
posted by sockermom at 10:54 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh yes, also, it will not go well, she will likely spin this like DarlingBri says above. Ignore it, deflect, and plan to do something really nice for yourself after the breakup. Plan a dinner with friends, or get yourself a really great book to read, or something nice. Because she is not going to be nice to you, and you are going to need some self-care after the phone call.
posted by sockermom at 10:55 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Bullet. Dodged.
posted by culfinglin at 12:11 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Snooping? After three weeks?

Nope. There is nothing here to salvage.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:00 AM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm really confused: Did the snooping and accusations happen before you posted the original question, or after?

Regardless, yes.. nothing to salvage. This much drama, 3 weeks in, snooping and accusations.. Just call her and end it.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:13 AM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


DTMFA indeed. After a mere three weeks of dating and with this odd level of erratic, dramatic behaviors from her, I just want to throw out one suggestion no one here has mentioned yet: you could also just stop talking to her, period, and block her everywheres. Definitely don't meet her in person. Protect yourself.
posted by hush at 8:34 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes I would end the relationship. I feel very sorry for her because obviously something has happened in her life (dad cheating? boyfriend cheating?) for her to be so untrusting of men and I think people are being a little mean and compassionless in this thread. You are also taking this far too personally. She would be untrusting of any boyfriend. It's not 'odd' behaviour, it's expected if someone has experienced this in their past. She's clearly very anxious and wants to reassure herself.

It's not your shit to deal with so there's that and you don't need that baggage. When you leave her please tell her why and don't be mean or call her crazy or unworthy (she is worthy) since she is not a nasty person, just scared. Explain (kindly) that trust is important and you can't be with someone who is untrusting. If you are kind she will realise that this is an issue she has to finally deal with. A phone call is a good idea.

Facebook/Google snooping is something lots of people do btw. They're just smarter about covering their tracks. She is probably going to look on your BFFs Facebook page just in case it says 'now in a relationship with...'. Prepare your friend for that.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
GF and I went to dinner last night. After we were done eating, I gently confronted her about the pill bottle and the Facebook snooping.

She walked out. I tried to talk to her about it back at her place, like grown adults, and her reaction was full of insults and wild excuses. She had her mind made up about how things were and had no interest in hearing the actual truth.

I finally just said "Listen, I get it. You don't trust men. But I refuse to be treated like some joe schmo you just met on the street. I don't have anything to hide and I have given you no reason not to trust me. And yes, I do have many female friends, some of whom I am comfortable enough with to go camping one on one. I had hoped that you would see that this is a positive trait, because I respect my friends, and they have no problem being alone with me in the wilderness. Instead you see this as a threat. I can't be with someone who sees my friendships, or me, that way. I'm sorry, but this ends right now." and I left.

We chatted over text this morning and she apologized for her behavior. She asked me for some clarification on things. I said, for instance if she would have accepted my offer to turn the camping trip into a double date, I would have been thrilled (she replied that she realized she fucked up that opportunity). If she would have ever said "Hey, I see that BFF means a lot to you. She must be an amazing person. I would love to meet her." she would have been golden. I suggested that she might want to reevaluate why she sees a man who is close friends with other women in his life as a threat, instead of an asset. She seemed to agree.

Either way, I'm out. I've spent far too long, and gone through much sacrifice, to be a good person and to make my life as awesome as it is. I don't need to be with someone who wants to tear that down, who doesn't see me for who I am.

Thanks for the advice!
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:11 PM on October 24, 2015 [7 favorites]


GF could use a bit of game theory.
posted by flabdablet at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


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