Must choose between being good and being happy? T or F?
October 11, 2015 8:48 AM Subscribe
I'm a jumble of emotions right now.
[TLDR]: The question is, can you be good if you break an unbreakable vow? Is it really a choice between being good and being happy? Is there a way to reconcile the two?
Backstory: I am currently married to the first guy I ever dated (dating at 16, married at 20). As a young Christian woman, I stood up before my partner, our community, and God and took the traditional marriage vows "till death". The marriage has been rocky and abusive from the beginning, with doses of immaturity and selfishness on both sides. I feel as though I tried and tried and tried everything to make it work and just couldn't. I prayed for a solution. I begged for answers. Nothing came and 2 years ago I gave up. I prayed and told God in an angry tone that trying to do things his way for almost 20 year (i'll be 40 in the spring) has not worked so I am now going to try it my way. I should have bravely and cleanly left the abusive relationship but I was afraid. Afraid to be on my own, afraid of losing his family (the only family I have as mine are dead/dysfunctional), afraid of never being loved again and dying alone. Instead I stayed in the relationship but acted out. By last summer I decided it was time to stand up and end my marriage. I told my spouse about everything that was going on and how I felt and his response was "No, you don't get to unilaterally end our relationship. You made a vow." So I backed down for a few months again but everything was still so awful and I had basically reached the point of no return and again came to him and said "it's over". He yelled, he cried, he threatened, he refused to cooperate, he demanded we go to counseling (which he had refused every year I asked previously) but after I made it clear I was not going to change my mind, he relented. He moved out, based on finances (I could carry the mortgage while he could not) and I started counting down the months till I could file in our state (1 year with no kids). 3 months into the separation I had been seeing him once a week for a "date night" at his request (this was his negotiated compromise to agreeing to move out and let me proceed with separation). He was so sweet and kind and it was so lonely at home by myself and trying to manage an entire house and 2 dogs and a new full time job was exhausting. And his family cut me off, telling me I was no longer their daughter (see my posting history for details) and I felt so scared and isolated so when he asked again if he could please come home in Oct 2014 I said ok. But I said we will have to try to make things work as friends and roommates first before we can see if we can ever be anything more again.
He moved in and quickly things reverted back to how they were before he ever left. He was verbally abusive and this time I responded with total disengagement. I stopped telling him where I was going and when I'd be back. I stopped cooking dinner for the two of us except for one or two nights a week and the rest of the time I spent with friends or out by myself. I checked out really. It's been a year and he has grown increasingly hostile and openly aggressive with each passing month. Where I am now is in the mindset of getting some financial ducks in a row before leaving (this time I am going to move out, in early spring bc I can carry the mortgage and my apartment rent). And it's totally obvious I am disengaged and its stirring an undercurrent of rage within him. To the point that I'm afraid to tell him I am leaving until I actually pack up and go one weekend while he is out of town bc I don't know how violent he will react if I give him warning.
He spent a half hour yelling at me this morning, telling me that no matter what things he has done, for me to break my wedding vow and to not be his wife is unconscionable. It's wrong, it's selfish, and how will I live with myself the rest of my life if I keep on this path? I have hurt him without remorse (both in what I did while acting out last year and in not being emotionally available since he moved back in), I have taken away his best friend, he has no one to love and honor and cherish him because I have stopped doing all of that despite my original vow to do so. He said it doesn't matter what has transpired, I MADE A PROMISE TILL DEATH. Nothing can undo that. That it makes me horrible and selfish to the core and that just because I have recently surrounded myself with friends who are ok with divorce does not change reality. Reality= if I leave I have broken my vow and am not a good person. And the only way to EVER fix that is to not leave.
So I'm a mess. I honestly feel like at this point if I had to choose between staying with him to be good and keep my promise or dying to get out of it (till death do you part) I'd rather die. I want to be good. What I would most want though is to be able to leave and have a life without abuse and still be able to be a good person. I want so much to be a good person and to be loving and to be loved. I do not want to let God down and yet I think, if I can't even love this person anymore that I chose above all others, how can I ever really love my enemies as commanded?
Backstory: I am currently married to the first guy I ever dated (dating at 16, married at 20). As a young Christian woman, I stood up before my partner, our community, and God and took the traditional marriage vows "till death". The marriage has been rocky and abusive from the beginning, with doses of immaturity and selfishness on both sides. I feel as though I tried and tried and tried everything to make it work and just couldn't. I prayed for a solution. I begged for answers. Nothing came and 2 years ago I gave up. I prayed and told God in an angry tone that trying to do things his way for almost 20 year (i'll be 40 in the spring) has not worked so I am now going to try it my way. I should have bravely and cleanly left the abusive relationship but I was afraid. Afraid to be on my own, afraid of losing his family (the only family I have as mine are dead/dysfunctional), afraid of never being loved again and dying alone. Instead I stayed in the relationship but acted out. By last summer I decided it was time to stand up and end my marriage. I told my spouse about everything that was going on and how I felt and his response was "No, you don't get to unilaterally end our relationship. You made a vow." So I backed down for a few months again but everything was still so awful and I had basically reached the point of no return and again came to him and said "it's over". He yelled, he cried, he threatened, he refused to cooperate, he demanded we go to counseling (which he had refused every year I asked previously) but after I made it clear I was not going to change my mind, he relented. He moved out, based on finances (I could carry the mortgage while he could not) and I started counting down the months till I could file in our state (1 year with no kids). 3 months into the separation I had been seeing him once a week for a "date night" at his request (this was his negotiated compromise to agreeing to move out and let me proceed with separation). He was so sweet and kind and it was so lonely at home by myself and trying to manage an entire house and 2 dogs and a new full time job was exhausting. And his family cut me off, telling me I was no longer their daughter (see my posting history for details) and I felt so scared and isolated so when he asked again if he could please come home in Oct 2014 I said ok. But I said we will have to try to make things work as friends and roommates first before we can see if we can ever be anything more again.
He moved in and quickly things reverted back to how they were before he ever left. He was verbally abusive and this time I responded with total disengagement. I stopped telling him where I was going and when I'd be back. I stopped cooking dinner for the two of us except for one or two nights a week and the rest of the time I spent with friends or out by myself. I checked out really. It's been a year and he has grown increasingly hostile and openly aggressive with each passing month. Where I am now is in the mindset of getting some financial ducks in a row before leaving (this time I am going to move out, in early spring bc I can carry the mortgage and my apartment rent). And it's totally obvious I am disengaged and its stirring an undercurrent of rage within him. To the point that I'm afraid to tell him I am leaving until I actually pack up and go one weekend while he is out of town bc I don't know how violent he will react if I give him warning.
He spent a half hour yelling at me this morning, telling me that no matter what things he has done, for me to break my wedding vow and to not be his wife is unconscionable. It's wrong, it's selfish, and how will I live with myself the rest of my life if I keep on this path? I have hurt him without remorse (both in what I did while acting out last year and in not being emotionally available since he moved back in), I have taken away his best friend, he has no one to love and honor and cherish him because I have stopped doing all of that despite my original vow to do so. He said it doesn't matter what has transpired, I MADE A PROMISE TILL DEATH. Nothing can undo that. That it makes me horrible and selfish to the core and that just because I have recently surrounded myself with friends who are ok with divorce does not change reality. Reality= if I leave I have broken my vow and am not a good person. And the only way to EVER fix that is to not leave.
So I'm a mess. I honestly feel like at this point if I had to choose between staying with him to be good and keep my promise or dying to get out of it (till death do you part) I'd rather die. I want to be good. What I would most want though is to be able to leave and have a life without abuse and still be able to be a good person. I want so much to be a good person and to be loving and to be loved. I do not want to let God down and yet I think, if I can't even love this person anymore that I chose above all others, how can I ever really love my enemies as commanded?
Oh, I'm so sorry. This article might be helpful, which talks about the idea that if a husband is abusive, he has abandoned a Christian marriage in a sense himself. He's already broken the vows by not treating you right. Please take care of yourself, and leave for good.
posted by three_red_balloons at 9:03 AM on October 11, 2015 [43 favorites]
posted by three_red_balloons at 9:03 AM on October 11, 2015 [43 favorites]
I honestly feel like at this point if I had to choose between staying with him to be good and keep my promise or dying to get out of it (till death do you part) I'd rather die.
Also, if you are having thoughts of suicide or hurting yourself, please reach out for help to a professional or to a trusted friend. The National Suicide Prevention Hotline is 1 (800) 273-8255 if you need it. Please don't hurt yourself.
posted by jaguar at 9:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
Also, if you are having thoughts of suicide or hurting yourself, please reach out for help to a professional or to a trusted friend. The National Suicide Prevention Hotline is 1 (800) 273-8255 if you need it. Please don't hurt yourself.
posted by jaguar at 9:09 AM on October 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
Don't let him define your reality for you. He is telling you awful things because he's trying to get you to stay, and he tried being sweet and agreeable and that hasn't worked, so he's trying to guilt trip you into staying, and he's using the arguments that he knows will hit you the hardest. I guarantee you that if you don't cave in, then he will find something else to harangue you about or he will start making extravagant promises about how things will be better. And he will alternate between the two methods (the carrot and the stick) until you either give up and go back to him, or you draw some boundaries and tell him it's really truly over and move out and don't have any more date nights, etc.
I am not a Christian, but I do know that there are lots of different ways to be a good person and love is not a finite resource. And in my opinion marriage is something that is supposed to raise both people up: they are supposed to love and support and help each other. By starting to act abusively towards you, your husband was the first one who broke the promise and foundation of your marriage, not you. He's the one who poked holes in the ship of your marriage, so don't let him tell you that it's your fault the ship is sinking.
posted by colfax at 9:10 AM on October 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
I am not a Christian, but I do know that there are lots of different ways to be a good person and love is not a finite resource. And in my opinion marriage is something that is supposed to raise both people up: they are supposed to love and support and help each other. By starting to act abusively towards you, your husband was the first one who broke the promise and foundation of your marriage, not you. He's the one who poked holes in the ship of your marriage, so don't let him tell you that it's your fault the ship is sinking.
posted by colfax at 9:10 AM on October 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
You know what to do. Please have the courage to follow through and do not look back. Leave now. You will regret it for the rest of your life if you do not. Those vows have exceptions and such abuse is one of them
Good luck
posted by JayRwv at 9:11 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Good luck
posted by JayRwv at 9:11 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
What about his vow to love, honor and cherish you? It seems to me that he broke that vow a long time ago. Please don't feel guilty about leaving this marriage. You deserve to feel safe and loved, which is not likely to happen with your husband. Wishing you all the best. Nthing jaguar's advice to seek help. Please stay safe and do what you have to do to take care of yourself.
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 9:12 AM on October 11, 2015 [41 favorites]
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 9:12 AM on October 11, 2015 [41 favorites]
The vow has already been broken. He broke it.
You might find the resources at Abigail's of use; they provide a safe Christian framework for examining and fleeing domestic abuse.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:16 AM on October 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
You might find the resources at Abigail's of use; they provide a safe Christian framework for examining and fleeing domestic abuse.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:16 AM on October 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
I'm not American, but that year-long waiting period seems ridiculous. (And especially if you jeopardized it by allowing him to come back.) You need to get out now. And get out as permanently as possible. Is there a way you can go somewhere and get a quickie divorce?
As for breaking your vow, I think you're going to need to find some sort of spiritual counselor, so even if your own particular religion/sect doesn't approve of divorce is there a similar denomination/branch that you would feel comfortable enough so that you could speak to one of those priests/pastors/reverends/etc.? I think this really needs to be the place you start.
Just know that you're doing the right thing, even if it doesn't feel that way. Be good to yourself.
posted by sardonyx at 9:18 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
As for breaking your vow, I think you're going to need to find some sort of spiritual counselor, so even if your own particular religion/sect doesn't approve of divorce is there a similar denomination/branch that you would feel comfortable enough so that you could speak to one of those priests/pastors/reverends/etc.? I think this really needs to be the place you start.
Just know that you're doing the right thing, even if it doesn't feel that way. Be good to yourself.
posted by sardonyx at 9:18 AM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here us a quote from Joel Osteen (not a favorite person to me - but a good quote)
YOU MUST MAKE A DECISION THAT YOUR ARE GOING TO "MOVE ON".
It wont happen automatically.
You will have to rise up and say,
"I don't care how hard this is,
I don't care how disappointed I am,
I'm not going to let this get the best of me,
I'm moving on with my life."
posted by JayRwv at 9:27 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
YOU MUST MAKE A DECISION THAT YOUR ARE GOING TO "MOVE ON".
It wont happen automatically.
You will have to rise up and say,
"I don't care how hard this is,
I don't care how disappointed I am,
I'm not going to let this get the best of me,
I'm moving on with my life."
posted by JayRwv at 9:27 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry that your in-laws cut you off. I love my in-laws, even though we argue about politics.
I have been married for quite a long time to a really nice man. I'm pro-marriage and pro-monogamy, but am not at all religious. Yes, you made a vow, but it was a bad decision.
I do believe that a man who tries to use something like "but you have to stay with me" is not a man who is really trying to be a good husband or even a truly persuasive debater. ("You're trapped; I win" is a crappy argument.)
I really want you to start using the word "crappy" (if you don't think he'll punch you). That is, when he says "selfish", you say "crappy". I mean like "Our marriage has been pretty crappy." And "I don't want to stay in this crappy marriage."
And then veering back out of the gutter, maybe googling "ethical divorce" will get you some hits. It's probably important to your spirit that you fight fairly (as much as possible) without backstabbing. (However some sneaking might be necessary for your own safety.)
And hum the song "You don't own me" a few times for luck.
posted by puddledork at 9:30 AM on October 11, 2015
I have been married for quite a long time to a really nice man. I'm pro-marriage and pro-monogamy, but am not at all religious. Yes, you made a vow, but it was a bad decision.
I do believe that a man who tries to use something like "but you have to stay with me" is not a man who is really trying to be a good husband or even a truly persuasive debater. ("You're trapped; I win" is a crappy argument.)
I really want you to start using the word "crappy" (if you don't think he'll punch you). That is, when he says "selfish", you say "crappy". I mean like "Our marriage has been pretty crappy." And "I don't want to stay in this crappy marriage."
And then veering back out of the gutter, maybe googling "ethical divorce" will get you some hits. It's probably important to your spirit that you fight fairly (as much as possible) without backstabbing. (However some sneaking might be necessary for your own safety.)
And hum the song "You don't own me" a few times for luck.
posted by puddledork at 9:30 AM on October 11, 2015
Vow, shmow. DTMFA. I'm not a religious person, but I find it hard to fathom that a loving god that wants you to be happy would require you to continue to live like this. You don't need him or his family. Their judgment of you is nonsense. Pull the trigger and never look back. Christ was a rebel too.
posted by vrakatar at 9:34 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by vrakatar at 9:34 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Being good has not one thing to do with tolerating abuse. This man is abusing the mother of your future children. Think of it that way.
Of course his family is cutting you off, because the big baby will be their problem again. Leave the county, or state after the settlement. Waste no time finding similar work, far away. You will be ten times better off in a city of strangers than in a house with one enemy.
posted by Oyéah at 9:39 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Of course his family is cutting you off, because the big baby will be their problem again. Leave the county, or state after the settlement. Waste no time finding similar work, far away. You will be ten times better off in a city of strangers than in a house with one enemy.
posted by Oyéah at 9:39 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
The vow has already been broken. He broke it.
This is what DarlingBri said, and I think it is worth repeating.
You are framing it like this: "I made a vow." But that's not right. More accurately: "We made vows." And you didn't just happen to both make these vows near each other. You made these vows to each other. And, I'm willing to bet, the vows didn't say, "I promise to be with you, no matter what, until death." I'm willing to bet there were words to the effect, "I vow to love and honor you." Again: you didn't just vow to be with your husband until death. Instead, you and he both made joint vows to love and honor (and maybe some other things) until death.
Abuse is not love. You do not honor someone, if you abuse them. He has failed you. He has broken the vows. This is why you find yourself so conflicted, confused, and angry: you're trying to figure out how to avoid breaking something that is already broken.
Suppose you and your husband were both museum guards, and there is a special vase that you have both vowed to protect. One night, you come to your job and you find him, with a baseball bat, standing over the shards. He broke it. He failed in his task. Now, what about you? The vase is broken--is it your fault? Did you fail in your vow to protect it, or did he? Does it make sense for you to be left with this charge, "I must continue to make sure the vase is kept safe!", now that he has destroyed it?
I am so sorry you are going through this. I am so sorry you feel such pain and struggle. I don't think it's my place to tell you what God is like, or what God wants/demands of you--your religious convictions are your own. What I can tell you, though, is that I am simply a stranger, fallible and with only the limited capacity for love of a mortal, and I feel nothing but compassion and hope for you, and I want you to be free and happy. Every one of us limited mortals in this thread feels the same.
posted by meese at 9:47 AM on October 11, 2015 [41 favorites]
This is what DarlingBri said, and I think it is worth repeating.
You are framing it like this: "I made a vow." But that's not right. More accurately: "We made vows." And you didn't just happen to both make these vows near each other. You made these vows to each other. And, I'm willing to bet, the vows didn't say, "I promise to be with you, no matter what, until death." I'm willing to bet there were words to the effect, "I vow to love and honor you." Again: you didn't just vow to be with your husband until death. Instead, you and he both made joint vows to love and honor (and maybe some other things) until death.
Abuse is not love. You do not honor someone, if you abuse them. He has failed you. He has broken the vows. This is why you find yourself so conflicted, confused, and angry: you're trying to figure out how to avoid breaking something that is already broken.
Suppose you and your husband were both museum guards, and there is a special vase that you have both vowed to protect. One night, you come to your job and you find him, with a baseball bat, standing over the shards. He broke it. He failed in his task. Now, what about you? The vase is broken--is it your fault? Did you fail in your vow to protect it, or did he? Does it make sense for you to be left with this charge, "I must continue to make sure the vase is kept safe!", now that he has destroyed it?
I am so sorry you are going through this. I am so sorry you feel such pain and struggle. I don't think it's my place to tell you what God is like, or what God wants/demands of you--your religious convictions are your own. What I can tell you, though, is that I am simply a stranger, fallible and with only the limited capacity for love of a mortal, and I feel nothing but compassion and hope for you, and I want you to be free and happy. Every one of us limited mortals in this thread feels the same.
posted by meese at 9:47 AM on October 11, 2015 [41 favorites]
Another couple of posts that may help:
The bible does allow divorce for domestic abuse
Why an abuser cannot be Christian
Colossians 3:8
Wikipedia article on Christianity and domestic violence
And I mean, just really simply - what do you think Jesus would say about this? (I think he'd say your husband is wrong.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
The bible does allow divorce for domestic abuse
Why an abuser cannot be Christian
Colossians 3:8
Wikipedia article on Christianity and domestic violence
And I mean, just really simply - what do you think Jesus would say about this? (I think he'd say your husband is wrong.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
I agree that your vows encompassed so much more than "stick it out being abused until death do us part."
I also agree he broke them first.
It is ridiculous to treat you so badly and then stand there and judge you for moving out. Honour, cherish, respect...these are the values of Christian marriage, not "you promised so you just have to take it." I am not a theology expert but one thing that came to me reading your post was Jesus in the temple with the money lenders. It seems to me that the money lenders were following the letter of the law and Jesus was infuriated that they were interfering in the relationship of people to the temple. I think your husband keeping you to some letter of your vows while violating their intent is a grave miscarriage of the understanding of what a marriage is and what the vows are meant to have said.
I also believe you are a good person, and you do not deserve to have to make these choices in a way. But I respect you greatly for making them. You can absolutely leave your husband and live a good Christian life. You can be an asset and force for good in your community. That you got overwhelmed before only says you need to invite your community also to support and help you, whether that's babysitting or dogwalking or prayer. In five years out from this situation you will find yourselves with so much more energy to put into the values and care that really matter to you.
Not to get melodramatic, but this is your soul telling you that it will be crushed in this marriage. I believe God cares way more about your actual soul than vows humans came up with words for.
All that said, even if you wanted to keep the vows, there is no requirement that you live with him. I would start with leaving and staying left. You truly can sort it out from there.
My mother in law is divorced and was in a Catholic marriage and she decided that for her she was absolutely fine with a civil divorce but she chose not to date again. I don't wish that outcome for you and I don't find it necessary, but it is a kind of nice intermediate step...if you feel that the vow was unbreakable, you can simply live elsewhere, get a legal divorce, and not move onto a next relationship. I personally want to be clear: I think you deserve that partnership and happiness too. But if that little voice in your head requires an adherence to this set of vows while you consult more, that's not a terrible place to land for a few years.
Very big wishes for you, this is huge stuff.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I also agree he broke them first.
It is ridiculous to treat you so badly and then stand there and judge you for moving out. Honour, cherish, respect...these are the values of Christian marriage, not "you promised so you just have to take it." I am not a theology expert but one thing that came to me reading your post was Jesus in the temple with the money lenders. It seems to me that the money lenders were following the letter of the law and Jesus was infuriated that they were interfering in the relationship of people to the temple. I think your husband keeping you to some letter of your vows while violating their intent is a grave miscarriage of the understanding of what a marriage is and what the vows are meant to have said.
I also believe you are a good person, and you do not deserve to have to make these choices in a way. But I respect you greatly for making them. You can absolutely leave your husband and live a good Christian life. You can be an asset and force for good in your community. That you got overwhelmed before only says you need to invite your community also to support and help you, whether that's babysitting or dogwalking or prayer. In five years out from this situation you will find yourselves with so much more energy to put into the values and care that really matter to you.
Not to get melodramatic, but this is your soul telling you that it will be crushed in this marriage. I believe God cares way more about your actual soul than vows humans came up with words for.
All that said, even if you wanted to keep the vows, there is no requirement that you live with him. I would start with leaving and staying left. You truly can sort it out from there.
My mother in law is divorced and was in a Catholic marriage and she decided that for her she was absolutely fine with a civil divorce but she chose not to date again. I don't wish that outcome for you and I don't find it necessary, but it is a kind of nice intermediate step...if you feel that the vow was unbreakable, you can simply live elsewhere, get a legal divorce, and not move onto a next relationship. I personally want to be clear: I think you deserve that partnership and happiness too. But if that little voice in your head requires an adherence to this set of vows while you consult more, that's not a terrible place to land for a few years.
Very big wishes for you, this is huge stuff.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
He spent a half hour yelling at me this morning, telling me that no matter what things he has done, for me to break my wedding vow and to not be his wife is unconscionable
He broke his vows and ended your marriage by being abusive. He's gaslighting you by trying to make this all your fault.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
He broke his vows and ended your marriage by being abusive. He's gaslighting you by trying to make this all your fault.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's not an unbreakable vow. Divorce wouldn't exist if it were unbreakable. He may not think you are a good person if you break your vows, but who cares what he thinks? You don't want to be with him anyway. Your friends, your family, God, etc, all have their own values, and they are unlikely to agree with him. I am not religious, but I do think that if there is a God he does not think badly of people for leaving abusive relationships.
posted by intensitymultiply at 10:30 AM on October 11, 2015
posted by intensitymultiply at 10:30 AM on October 11, 2015
He's using what you love as a weapon against you. I am so glad that you don't have children with him that he could use/abuse this way. Get out. Let his craptastic abuser-excuser family deal with him.
posted by blueberry at 10:39 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by blueberry at 10:39 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
He spent a half hour yelling at me this morning, telling me that no matter what things he has done, for me to break my wedding vow and to not be his wife is unconscionable.
He's not just wrong, he's lying to you in order to effectively defraud you into staying in a marriage which he unilaterally ended by failing to uphold his own vows. Even if it's a binding contract, there is no contract on earth that requires one party to perform after the other one breaches. Marriage vows are not one-sided obligations.
Where is your church in all this? Where is your pastor? I have been to some incredibly conservative churches, but spousal abuse is almost always something where if your current church isn't supportive, then you will have very little trouble finding another one that will be able to be your home and family through this awful process. You don't have to be alone for this. If faith is still an important thing to you to this degree, then find people who will support that. The man who destroyed your marriage or anybody who supports him are not good authorities to look to on God's plan for your life, if that's something that's important for you to have.
From the Sermon on the Mount:
posted by Sequence at 10:45 AM on October 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
He's not just wrong, he's lying to you in order to effectively defraud you into staying in a marriage which he unilaterally ended by failing to uphold his own vows. Even if it's a binding contract, there is no contract on earth that requires one party to perform after the other one breaches. Marriage vows are not one-sided obligations.
Where is your church in all this? Where is your pastor? I have been to some incredibly conservative churches, but spousal abuse is almost always something where if your current church isn't supportive, then you will have very little trouble finding another one that will be able to be your home and family through this awful process. You don't have to be alone for this. If faith is still an important thing to you to this degree, then find people who will support that. The man who destroyed your marriage or anybody who supports him are not good authorities to look to on God's plan for your life, if that's something that's important for you to have.
From the Sermon on the Mount:
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."This man has delivered you barrel after barrel of rotten fruit already. Go find some emotionally healthy people to get your cues from.
posted by Sequence at 10:45 AM on October 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
The relationship you describe is closer to slavery than marriage. Is this what laying down his life as Christ did for the church looks like? No, it is not. He broke the vows. Tell me what fruit of the Spirit he has shown lately: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, forgiveness, gentleness and self-control. None? So what of his vows?
He is trying to break you. You didn't shut off for no reason — he has extinguished something good in you. You can heal, but first you need to move somewhere safely away from him.
If God loves you and wants you to be safe, wouldn't He want you out of this dangerous soul-destroying house? Loving someone doesn't mean letting them break you. That is fear, not love.
You could choose to live somewhere else but not legally divorce. You could choose to divorce and not date again. There are options that don't involve living under his threats and violence and contempt but still follow the letter of the law.
None of this is your fault. It isn't your fault he tricked you into letting him move back in. It isn't your fault he abused you again. These are his fault.
Leave without warning. This instinct is correct. I wish you safety, happiness, peace.
posted by sadmadglad at 10:48 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
He is trying to break you. You didn't shut off for no reason — he has extinguished something good in you. You can heal, but first you need to move somewhere safely away from him.
If God loves you and wants you to be safe, wouldn't He want you out of this dangerous soul-destroying house? Loving someone doesn't mean letting them break you. That is fear, not love.
You could choose to live somewhere else but not legally divorce. You could choose to divorce and not date again. There are options that don't involve living under his threats and violence and contempt but still follow the letter of the law.
None of this is your fault. It isn't your fault he tricked you into letting him move back in. It isn't your fault he abused you again. These are his fault.
Leave without warning. This instinct is correct. I wish you safety, happiness, peace.
posted by sadmadglad at 10:48 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hi, TestamenttoGrace:
I was a pastor for a long time, (seminary education, Doctor of Ministry degree, the whole deal), and I still do a lot of volunteer/consulting work with churches even though I have shifted into teaching for now. I really appreciate your desire to do the right thing even if it is difficult, and I agree with you that sometimes the right thing requires sacrifices. There are things more important than personal comfort. However, I think a close look at one 1 Corinthians 7 is in order. This is the longest passage in the New Testament about marriage and divorce:
10 To the married I give this command—not I but the Lord—that the wife should not separate from her husband 11 (but if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
12 To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any believer has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 And if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. It is to peace that God has called you.
I'm not going to make this essay-length, but let me point out a couple of things: 1) in verse 10 and 11 Paul gives a command that he says is from "the Lord"--that is, it's not his interpretation, but it's something he got directly from Jesus somehow. Notice it says that a wife should not separate from her husband "but if she does...." Even Jesus acknowledges that the ideal thing is not always possible. I think on even the most conservative reading of the Bible, leaving your husband is considered to be an unfortunate reality that is sometimes unavoidable. 2) Starting in verse 12 we have Paul's advice for married Christians. To me it is pretty clear that he considers this somewhat less authoritative, and labels it clearly "I and not the Lord." I would put this under the category of sound advice, but he doesn't call it a command. Also keep in mind he is dealing with a very specific issue--Christians married to non-Christians--and I think the assumption is that the marriages are otherwise good. In other words, the question he is addressing is "should Christians divorce their non-Christian spouses just because they are not Christians?" and the answer is "No, that's not necessary--but if they leave, let them leave." The most important thing in this paragraph is is theological rationale--the truth about God that Paul is basing his teaching on. That rationale is "It is to peace that God has called you."
Dwell on that for a while. It is to peace that God has called you. Marriage vows are important, but even Jesus understands that they cannot always be kept. Marriage vows are important, but you can let an unbeliever go. Marriage vows are important, but it is to peace that God has called you.
Is you marriage keeping you from having peace in your life? It certainly sounds like it is. And in that situation, you have a conflict: God desires stable marriages, but he also wants peace in your life. If you have an unpeaceful marriage, you are living in a way that God does not desire. Conflictual marriage is not his will for you. So, there are two options that I see: 1) make your marriage a peaceful one. It sounds like you have tried that and it isn't possible. So that leaves the other option: 2) find peace outside of your marriage.
I would ask you to think about your marriage vows. My guess is that your husband made some pledges in those vows. Probably something about honoring and cherishing you until death do you part. The vow was almost certainly not just to stay married to you until death, but to honor and cherish you until death. Which means he is the one who broke your marriage vows, and continues to break them again and again. In my judgment, when the "honor and cherish" provisions are habitually broken, the other person in the marriage is no long obligated to stick with "until death do us part." The agreement was never just about a legal connection, it was about creating a certain kind of life together--a life that he will not or cannot partner with you to create.
My advice to you, if you were in my office, with an open Bible between us, is that God wants peace for you and he wants marriages that reflect selfless love. If you don't have that, he is calling you to find it.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:28 PM on October 11, 2015 [104 favorites]
I was a pastor for a long time, (seminary education, Doctor of Ministry degree, the whole deal), and I still do a lot of volunteer/consulting work with churches even though I have shifted into teaching for now. I really appreciate your desire to do the right thing even if it is difficult, and I agree with you that sometimes the right thing requires sacrifices. There are things more important than personal comfort. However, I think a close look at one 1 Corinthians 7 is in order. This is the longest passage in the New Testament about marriage and divorce:
10 To the married I give this command—not I but the Lord—that the wife should not separate from her husband 11 (but if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
12 To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any believer has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 And if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. It is to peace that God has called you.
I'm not going to make this essay-length, but let me point out a couple of things: 1) in verse 10 and 11 Paul gives a command that he says is from "the Lord"--that is, it's not his interpretation, but it's something he got directly from Jesus somehow. Notice it says that a wife should not separate from her husband "but if she does...." Even Jesus acknowledges that the ideal thing is not always possible. I think on even the most conservative reading of the Bible, leaving your husband is considered to be an unfortunate reality that is sometimes unavoidable. 2) Starting in verse 12 we have Paul's advice for married Christians. To me it is pretty clear that he considers this somewhat less authoritative, and labels it clearly "I and not the Lord." I would put this under the category of sound advice, but he doesn't call it a command. Also keep in mind he is dealing with a very specific issue--Christians married to non-Christians--and I think the assumption is that the marriages are otherwise good. In other words, the question he is addressing is "should Christians divorce their non-Christian spouses just because they are not Christians?" and the answer is "No, that's not necessary--but if they leave, let them leave." The most important thing in this paragraph is is theological rationale--the truth about God that Paul is basing his teaching on. That rationale is "It is to peace that God has called you."
Dwell on that for a while. It is to peace that God has called you. Marriage vows are important, but even Jesus understands that they cannot always be kept. Marriage vows are important, but you can let an unbeliever go. Marriage vows are important, but it is to peace that God has called you.
Is you marriage keeping you from having peace in your life? It certainly sounds like it is. And in that situation, you have a conflict: God desires stable marriages, but he also wants peace in your life. If you have an unpeaceful marriage, you are living in a way that God does not desire. Conflictual marriage is not his will for you. So, there are two options that I see: 1) make your marriage a peaceful one. It sounds like you have tried that and it isn't possible. So that leaves the other option: 2) find peace outside of your marriage.
I would ask you to think about your marriage vows. My guess is that your husband made some pledges in those vows. Probably something about honoring and cherishing you until death do you part. The vow was almost certainly not just to stay married to you until death, but to honor and cherish you until death. Which means he is the one who broke your marriage vows, and continues to break them again and again. In my judgment, when the "honor and cherish" provisions are habitually broken, the other person in the marriage is no long obligated to stick with "until death do us part." The agreement was never just about a legal connection, it was about creating a certain kind of life together--a life that he will not or cannot partner with you to create.
My advice to you, if you were in my office, with an open Bible between us, is that God wants peace for you and he wants marriages that reflect selfless love. If you don't have that, he is calling you to find it.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:28 PM on October 11, 2015 [104 favorites]
Oh dear - I was you - 19 years ago. In the end I moved for the sake of our daughter, but felt terribly guilty for ages, until a friend said exactly what Pater Aletheias is saying: he is the one who broke your marriage vows, and continues to break them again and again
I wish someone had told me this before. My life would have been different in many ways. Move on, and take time to recover. And you will find happiness out there.
posted by mumimor at 12:45 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wish someone had told me this before. My life would have been different in many ways. Move on, and take time to recover. And you will find happiness out there.
posted by mumimor at 12:45 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
You don't make a marriage vow alone. It involves two people who are each responsible for keeping alive the marriage their vows create. He wasn't living up to his part, you tried to do the work of two people in the marriage and, when that didn't work, separated (and still tried to explore ways to keep the marriage alive). He said and did just enough to convince you to come back, and then reverted to his old behavior. He is not keeping his vow.
Your marriage vows probably included something about "for richer and for poorer" and "in sickness and in health." I assume they didn't include a line about "no matter how cruelly he treats me." (Right?) It's possible for a person to be abusive in a way that makes a safe and healthy relationship impossible--and that abuse doesn't have to be physical, as commenters above have said. It sounds very much like that's what your husband is doing. He's making it impossible for you to safely keep your vow. He's forcing your hand. You have tried and worked and done everything you can to honor your commitment, but he's not honoring his. Marriage vows are about much more than just staying physically together. You clearly take yours very seriously, and I'd encourage you to think carefully before you spend more years with someone who doesn't.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:21 PM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Your marriage vows probably included something about "for richer and for poorer" and "in sickness and in health." I assume they didn't include a line about "no matter how cruelly he treats me." (Right?) It's possible for a person to be abusive in a way that makes a safe and healthy relationship impossible--and that abuse doesn't have to be physical, as commenters above have said. It sounds very much like that's what your husband is doing. He's making it impossible for you to safely keep your vow. He's forcing your hand. You have tried and worked and done everything you can to honor your commitment, but he's not honoring his. Marriage vows are about much more than just staying physically together. You clearly take yours very seriously, and I'd encourage you to think carefully before you spend more years with someone who doesn't.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:21 PM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
It is not your fault that you are in the darkness, but you should always be walking towards the light.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:45 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sebmojo at 2:45 PM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Christian clergy person here. I have counseled people in situations similar to yours over the years, and this is what I often tell them: marriage is like moving a sofa bed: when one person puts their end down, it is almost impossible for the movement to continue. Your spouse put his end down the moment he became abusive, and that is in no way your fault.
We Christians either believe God is love or we don't. We either believe in grace and forgiveness or we don't. I believe our faith teaches that God is a God of grace and forgiveness, which means that even if your breaking a convenant is wrong (and to be clear, your did not break the covenant, your husband did), God has already forgiven you, because God is love.
Wish for yourself the good that you wish for others. Accept the grace that your pray others receive and accept. You are made in the image of God, a God who exchanges nations for your life. That is a love that will never end.
Memail me I can do anything for you. All the best to you.
posted by 4ster at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
We Christians either believe God is love or we don't. We either believe in grace and forgiveness or we don't. I believe our faith teaches that God is a God of grace and forgiveness, which means that even if your breaking a convenant is wrong (and to be clear, your did not break the covenant, your husband did), God has already forgiven you, because God is love.
Wish for yourself the good that you wish for others. Accept the grace that your pray others receive and accept. You are made in the image of God, a God who exchanges nations for your life. That is a love that will never end.
Memail me I can do anything for you. All the best to you.
posted by 4ster at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I well remember previous questions and your situation and I often hoped that things were going well for you. I'm sorry to hear you're at this juncture, but I wanted to send you lots of love and support and to say this:
It's going to get a lot, lot better from here on out. I noticed right away that you said you were going out with friends a lot! That's so good! You're cultivating a support system beyond Mr. Theologically Dumb and his parents! That's so good!
You know well what a manipulative jerk your husband is; now I beg of you to stop listening to his baloney interpretations of what God wants for you, and listen to these kind people of metafilter and to your new IRL friends.
You are starting on a whole new chapter of your life! It's going to be so positive and so good for you - please don't bring his negativity with you into this chapter.
Love, love, love to you.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 8:24 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's going to get a lot, lot better from here on out. I noticed right away that you said you were going out with friends a lot! That's so good! You're cultivating a support system beyond Mr. Theologically Dumb and his parents! That's so good!
You know well what a manipulative jerk your husband is; now I beg of you to stop listening to his baloney interpretations of what God wants for you, and listen to these kind people of metafilter and to your new IRL friends.
You are starting on a whole new chapter of your life! It's going to be so positive and so good for you - please don't bring his negativity with you into this chapter.
Love, love, love to you.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 8:24 PM on October 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Do you actually need to get divorced? I know a lot of church congregations where being an actual divorcee would get some side-eye, but practically none where "living apart from an abusive husband" would get anything other than sympathy (and that runs the gamut from CoE, to superCatholic, to strict Nigerian Baptists).
I don't know what denomination you are, but in my convent school in Very Catholic Malta, that was even the course of action the nuns advised for us if we found ourselves in a bad marriage. I think if nuns are completely ok with people needing to separate and indeed actually advise impressionable teenage girls that that's the right course of action as part of official school teaching, it must be generally seen as ok theologically (and Pater Aletheias has given you the relevant text in his fantastic comment).
I would obviously go completely no-contact after separation, backed up by a restraining order if that's what you need to do (no more date nights, wtf), but I don't think the actual legal position is quite as important right now as him being actually out of your life. If complete separation but no actual legal divorce allows you to move forward with that with a clear conscience, then that's what I'd do for now.
Somebody asked above what your religious leaders thought, and that's a really good question. Haven't they been supportive? They usually are - that sort of thing is part of the "vicar's wife" job description (it may not be the actual vicar's wife, but there is usually somebody in the parish who is the nominated marriage guidance person).
You should have somebody to turn to for theological support in this - metafilter is great, but I suspect you'd get more comfort from somebody in your congregation giving you the religious all-clear that you will from a load of atheists on here telling you it's fine. If your husband and in-laws are making it difficult for you to attend your church, is there a sister church you could go to? Again, most pastors would much rather you went to services down the road than nowhere at all.
posted by tinkletown at 3:11 AM on October 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't know what denomination you are, but in my convent school in Very Catholic Malta, that was even the course of action the nuns advised for us if we found ourselves in a bad marriage. I think if nuns are completely ok with people needing to separate and indeed actually advise impressionable teenage girls that that's the right course of action as part of official school teaching, it must be generally seen as ok theologically (and Pater Aletheias has given you the relevant text in his fantastic comment).
I would obviously go completely no-contact after separation, backed up by a restraining order if that's what you need to do (no more date nights, wtf), but I don't think the actual legal position is quite as important right now as him being actually out of your life. If complete separation but no actual legal divorce allows you to move forward with that with a clear conscience, then that's what I'd do for now.
Somebody asked above what your religious leaders thought, and that's a really good question. Haven't they been supportive? They usually are - that sort of thing is part of the "vicar's wife" job description (it may not be the actual vicar's wife, but there is usually somebody in the parish who is the nominated marriage guidance person).
You should have somebody to turn to for theological support in this - metafilter is great, but I suspect you'd get more comfort from somebody in your congregation giving you the religious all-clear that you will from a load of atheists on here telling you it's fine. If your husband and in-laws are making it difficult for you to attend your church, is there a sister church you could go to? Again, most pastors would much rather you went to services down the road than nowhere at all.
posted by tinkletown at 3:11 AM on October 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I believe in a God that loves, forgives, and above all, UNDERSTANDS. I feel that there is no way God can punish you for 'breaking' this vow, nor would God ever want to. As many other have pointed out, your husband quickly broke his end of the vow, and repeatedly did so for decades. You, however, did not. You struggled mightily to do the impossible, to carry him and you. You, in my opinion, are entirely blameless and free to divorce. I also believe God has/will forgive you if you do divorce.
I do also understand how you could feel guilty about this. This is natural, and goes hand-in-hand with intense situations, especially where people are trying to paint you as the bad person (you so, so, so aren't the bad person here) This kinda gets into complicated Biblical matters I'm not really equipped to handle, so please forgive me if I don't make 100% sense.
God has and always will love you. He will continue to do so even if you do something that God does not like. If you truly repent, God has already forgiven you. However, I feel that part of repentance is... knowing exactly what you have done, what possible pain you have caused, and not only being able to merely deal with the consequences, but to forgive yourself. To look yourself in the mirror and say, meaning it, that "I did X. It is not something I wanted to do, but I still love myself even after it"
The first degree of love: Loving oneself for self’s sake; The second and third degrees of love: Loving God for self’s sake, and loving God for God’s sake.; but the fourth degree of love: Loving self for God’s sake
For what its worth, I think you tried your absolute best, and the failure is not your fault. It is ok to be angry and hurt and grief filled. It is also ok (in my beliefs) to be mad at God. He understands and sees further than we do, not unlike a parent preventing a child from eating too many sweets or touching fire. God will not change your husband (Free will and such) but I 100% believe God has/will forgiven you, and that you can also forgive yourself. I sincerely doubt God wants you to stay in a abusive marriage.
posted by Jacen at 10:39 AM on October 12, 2015
I do also understand how you could feel guilty about this. This is natural, and goes hand-in-hand with intense situations, especially where people are trying to paint you as the bad person (you so, so, so aren't the bad person here) This kinda gets into complicated Biblical matters I'm not really equipped to handle, so please forgive me if I don't make 100% sense.
God has and always will love you. He will continue to do so even if you do something that God does not like. If you truly repent, God has already forgiven you. However, I feel that part of repentance is... knowing exactly what you have done, what possible pain you have caused, and not only being able to merely deal with the consequences, but to forgive yourself. To look yourself in the mirror and say, meaning it, that "I did X. It is not something I wanted to do, but I still love myself even after it"
The first degree of love: Loving oneself for self’s sake; The second and third degrees of love: Loving God for self’s sake, and loving God for God’s sake.; but the fourth degree of love: Loving self for God’s sake
For what its worth, I think you tried your absolute best, and the failure is not your fault. It is ok to be angry and hurt and grief filled. It is also ok (in my beliefs) to be mad at God. He understands and sees further than we do, not unlike a parent preventing a child from eating too many sweets or touching fire. God will not change your husband (Free will and such) but I 100% believe God has/will forgiven you, and that you can also forgive yourself. I sincerely doubt God wants you to stay in a abusive marriage.
posted by Jacen at 10:39 AM on October 12, 2015
Oh honey.
I'm so sorry you are in so much anguish.
So, for the record, I am a Catholic.
This guy is NOT speaking the truth. He is deliberately using the marriage vows as a weapon against you. HE's the one disrespecting the marriage vows, not you.
You are NOT breaking your marriage vows by leaving him to save your sanity and possibly your life.
You would NOT be doing him a favor by staying. He is actively causing you harm. He is choosing to live in sin - hurting another is a sin.
By leaving, you are not allowing him to hurt you any longer. This might actually be the most loving thing to do for him, in the long run. By leaving, you are sending him a clear signal that his sin is NOT OK. By leaving, you are not allowing him to disrespect your marriage.
It is not a virtue to allow other people to abuse us. It might be sometimes inevitable to tolerate it for a limited period of time while making a safety plan but allowing people to abuse us is NOT love and is NOT doing the abuser any favors.
You have the right to protect yourself. You have the right to love yourself.
Please think of your safety first.
Also, please speak to a trusted clergy person... but pick that person carefully. Maybe the local women's shelter can recommend someone? Not sure if that's a thing in the US.
Please remember that Jesus came for the broken. It's not about being "a good person". It's about giving up your own efforts and realizing that none of us can really be a good person just by trying hard.
You can MeMail me if you want to talk.
posted by M. at 11:49 AM on October 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm so sorry you are in so much anguish.
So, for the record, I am a Catholic.
This guy is NOT speaking the truth. He is deliberately using the marriage vows as a weapon against you. HE's the one disrespecting the marriage vows, not you.
You are NOT breaking your marriage vows by leaving him to save your sanity and possibly your life.
You would NOT be doing him a favor by staying. He is actively causing you harm. He is choosing to live in sin - hurting another is a sin.
By leaving, you are not allowing him to hurt you any longer. This might actually be the most loving thing to do for him, in the long run. By leaving, you are sending him a clear signal that his sin is NOT OK. By leaving, you are not allowing him to disrespect your marriage.
It is not a virtue to allow other people to abuse us. It might be sometimes inevitable to tolerate it for a limited period of time while making a safety plan but allowing people to abuse us is NOT love and is NOT doing the abuser any favors.
You have the right to protect yourself. You have the right to love yourself.
Please think of your safety first.
Also, please speak to a trusted clergy person... but pick that person carefully. Maybe the local women's shelter can recommend someone? Not sure if that's a thing in the US.
Please remember that Jesus came for the broken. It's not about being "a good person". It's about giving up your own efforts and realizing that none of us can really be a good person just by trying hard.
You can MeMail me if you want to talk.
posted by M. at 11:49 AM on October 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
The Christian concept of marriage is based on MUTUAL submission. Is your husband submitting to you?
The Christian concept of marriage is also repeatedly described as a metaphor where the husband represents Christ, and the wife represents the Church. Christ literally died for the sake of the Church. Your husband is not even listening to you. He could not be further from the biblical definition of marriage right now. His anger against you is a form of violence that Christ abhorred.
Here is one way to think about it, that many of the most theologically conservative ministers I know would agree with: to remain with an abuser is not an act of love, for yourself or for him. To hold him accountable is the true act of love. To hold him accountable is the only way to fulfill your marriage vows. You are asking if it would be a sin to leave. Many theologians would argue that it is instead a sin to stay. (I am not using sin in the common US parlance, wherein sin=thing that sends you to hell. I am using sin in the way the Gospel uses it, wherein sin=any choice/belief/behavior that leads you further away from the transcendent future of reconciliation, joy, and healing that God desires for you. Choices made out of fear are often sins.)
By the way, one interesting exercise is to read through the Bible, and notice how many times husbands ignore the things their wives say, only to pay for it later, frequently with their own lives. Spoiler alert: A LOT. Men who treat their wives like chattel instead of partners are portrayed as foolish at best, and monstrous at worst. Your husband is trying to use the Bible to hurt you, but he doesn’t appear to have read it very well. Hard to read a book when you are using it as a bludgeon.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:04 PM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Christian concept of marriage is also repeatedly described as a metaphor where the husband represents Christ, and the wife represents the Church. Christ literally died for the sake of the Church. Your husband is not even listening to you. He could not be further from the biblical definition of marriage right now. His anger against you is a form of violence that Christ abhorred.
Here is one way to think about it, that many of the most theologically conservative ministers I know would agree with: to remain with an abuser is not an act of love, for yourself or for him. To hold him accountable is the true act of love. To hold him accountable is the only way to fulfill your marriage vows. You are asking if it would be a sin to leave. Many theologians would argue that it is instead a sin to stay. (I am not using sin in the common US parlance, wherein sin=thing that sends you to hell. I am using sin in the way the Gospel uses it, wherein sin=any choice/belief/behavior that leads you further away from the transcendent future of reconciliation, joy, and healing that God desires for you. Choices made out of fear are often sins.)
By the way, one interesting exercise is to read through the Bible, and notice how many times husbands ignore the things their wives say, only to pay for it later, frequently with their own lives. Spoiler alert: A LOT. Men who treat their wives like chattel instead of partners are portrayed as foolish at best, and monstrous at worst. Your husband is trying to use the Bible to hurt you, but he doesn’t appear to have read it very well. Hard to read a book when you are using it as a bludgeon.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:04 PM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
"He said it doesn't matter what has transpired, I MADE A PROMISE TILL DEATH. Nothing can undo that. That it makes me horrible and selfish to the core and that just because I have recently surrounded myself with friends who are ok with divorce does not change reality. Reality= if I leave I have broken my vow and am not a good person. And the only way to EVER fix that is to not leave."
The voice telling you you're not a good person is not God. It's your husband. He's not God. He doesn't even seem like that great of a person.
Don't let him take advantage of your faith and desire to be a good person to force you to endure his abuse.
posted by kapers at 12:36 PM on October 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
The voice telling you you're not a good person is not God. It's your husband. He's not God. He doesn't even seem like that great of a person.
Don't let him take advantage of your faith and desire to be a good person to force you to endure his abuse.
posted by kapers at 12:36 PM on October 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
You know, speaking as a fellow Christian, I think your husband has done much more than just broken your marriage vow. I think he's failed to live up to the dangerously high calling Paul put on Christian husbands when he admonished them to "love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." (Ephesians 5:25)
For the husband, honoring the marriage vows is just a starting point. Its like the bare minimum the laziest husband could hope to get away with. What he's actually instructed by scripture to do is to give himself up for his wife. Another popular way to word it (from the Holy Scriptures) is to lay down his life for her. Literally give his own life up, even to the point of death, to make sure you are cared for, treated with the utmost kindness, your needs put before his, your heart to be at peace, and you to be always safe and loved. He's called to die if that's what it takes to make that happen for you. That's how I read it at least.
So, in all honesty, I fear for your husband's soul. He will be held to a reckoning.
But not yours. As others have pointed out above here, no oath exists between you and him now that he has violated any and all of what once was one. Get out, and surround yourself with a community that can support and care for you.
I have close, believing friends in northern VA who would counsel you pretty much the same as you're getting in every answer here. I've sent you a MeMail if you'd like me to put you in touch with them.
I want to be good. What I would most want though is to be able to leave and have a life without abuse and still be able to be a good person.
You already are a good person. You'll be an even better one when you do leave and live that life free of abuse. Go be that person.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:51 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
For the husband, honoring the marriage vows is just a starting point. Its like the bare minimum the laziest husband could hope to get away with. What he's actually instructed by scripture to do is to give himself up for his wife. Another popular way to word it (from the Holy Scriptures) is to lay down his life for her. Literally give his own life up, even to the point of death, to make sure you are cared for, treated with the utmost kindness, your needs put before his, your heart to be at peace, and you to be always safe and loved. He's called to die if that's what it takes to make that happen for you. That's how I read it at least.
So, in all honesty, I fear for your husband's soul. He will be held to a reckoning.
But not yours. As others have pointed out above here, no oath exists between you and him now that he has violated any and all of what once was one. Get out, and surround yourself with a community that can support and care for you.
I have close, believing friends in northern VA who would counsel you pretty much the same as you're getting in every answer here. I've sent you a MeMail if you'd like me to put you in touch with them.
I want to be good. What I would most want though is to be able to leave and have a life without abuse and still be able to be a good person.
You already are a good person. You'll be an even better one when you do leave and live that life free of abuse. Go be that person.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:51 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Just in case some of the previous comments feel over the top to you: Even if you made mistakes in the marriage, too, you still deserve to leave. Nothing you could have done would have made you deserve abuse from your husband. That is not a reasonable consequence for any mistake or even intentional misdeed.
posted by jaguar at 8:02 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jaguar at 8:02 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hi OP.
I was thrown out of a church for not being willing to wait for my abusive ex husband to change his life and come back for me, because I "made a vow." It was one of the worst seasons of my life - people who had once been so loving and supportive literally turned their backs on me and threw me out. People I loved and trusted. Holy crap, did that hurt.
As this was happening, I made a sincere study of the issue in question. I didn't want to go proof-texting my way through the Bible. But based on the 40+ sources I found, nearly all agreed that the Bible does allow for divorce in cases of abuse, and that the innocent party is free to marry again.
If you would like the Google Doc I used to compile citations and resources, memail me.
I am now in a new relationship that is as good as the old one was bad. I do not believe that my choice to be in a new relationship violates my Christian faith or my ability to be a "good person." It has been almost five years since I left my marriage and even the worst day now is better than the best day then.
posted by guster4lovers at 12:54 PM on October 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was thrown out of a church for not being willing to wait for my abusive ex husband to change his life and come back for me, because I "made a vow." It was one of the worst seasons of my life - people who had once been so loving and supportive literally turned their backs on me and threw me out. People I loved and trusted. Holy crap, did that hurt.
As this was happening, I made a sincere study of the issue in question. I didn't want to go proof-texting my way through the Bible. But based on the 40+ sources I found, nearly all agreed that the Bible does allow for divorce in cases of abuse, and that the innocent party is free to marry again.
If you would like the Google Doc I used to compile citations and resources, memail me.
I am now in a new relationship that is as good as the old one was bad. I do not believe that my choice to be in a new relationship violates my Christian faith or my ability to be a "good person." It has been almost five years since I left my marriage and even the worst day now is better than the best day then.
posted by guster4lovers at 12:54 PM on October 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: It's been a couple weeks since I wrote the OP and while I read your replies right away I had to keep backing away bc this whole ugly thing just always leads me to uncontrollable sobbing every time I think about it.
But here is where I am at today. I am taking concrete steps to get out. I am researching apartments in the area I will be shifting to (Alexandria/Springfield) and planning the budget and etc etc.
For those who asked about what my spiritual counselors have said on the matter- they haven't said anything bc I haven't brought this to any pastors or similar. For most of my married life I told NO ONE what was going on bc I was ashamed. My closest friends knew only bc they were witnesses to husband's behavior at times. It is only in the last year that I am telling people. I am telling a handful of friends I trust what has been going on and what I am planning to do. It's been hard to tell them but so far they have been very supportive. And none of those I've been telling can offer spiritual advice or assurances bc to be honest my circle of Christian friends ran far far away from me last year when I was acting out (my best friend found out what I was doing in terms of acting out and so they all did eventually). Ironically I've become a Christian surrounded by agnostic/atheist friends. So I want to thank everyone on the green for their ad hoc spiritual advice on this issue here in this post. It is much appreciated.
So I turn 40 in mid March (Ides of March for the win!) and a week later I start my new life. I am excited and terrified.
posted by TestamentToGrace at 10:15 AM on November 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
But here is where I am at today. I am taking concrete steps to get out. I am researching apartments in the area I will be shifting to (Alexandria/Springfield) and planning the budget and etc etc.
For those who asked about what my spiritual counselors have said on the matter- they haven't said anything bc I haven't brought this to any pastors or similar. For most of my married life I told NO ONE what was going on bc I was ashamed. My closest friends knew only bc they were witnesses to husband's behavior at times. It is only in the last year that I am telling people. I am telling a handful of friends I trust what has been going on and what I am planning to do. It's been hard to tell them but so far they have been very supportive. And none of those I've been telling can offer spiritual advice or assurances bc to be honest my circle of Christian friends ran far far away from me last year when I was acting out (my best friend found out what I was doing in terms of acting out and so they all did eventually). Ironically I've become a Christian surrounded by agnostic/atheist friends. So I want to thank everyone on the green for their ad hoc spiritual advice on this issue here in this post. It is much appreciated.
So I turn 40 in mid March (Ides of March for the win!) and a week later I start my new life. I am excited and terrified.
posted by TestamentToGrace at 10:15 AM on November 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
TtG, I have been hoping for an update from you. I am so happy that you have reached this point and I wish nothing but the best for you now and in March.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:33 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 1:33 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've also been checking back periodically for an update and this made my day. Glad to hear you've got friends around you; a good network is invaluable, especially with the amount of isolation you've been dealing with. If it helps, there's a whole bunch of MeFites sending you good vibes as well.
posted by sapere aude at 10:52 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sapere aude at 10:52 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Well today begins the most painful of days. I got out, i moved out while he was out of town and today he came home from his vacation and discovered i was gone. He is enraged and heartbroken all at once. it's so ugly.
posted by TestamentToGrace at 10:55 PM on March 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by TestamentToGrace at 10:55 PM on March 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
Are you safe and secure?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:15 AM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:15 AM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just want to wish you strength and luck and make sure you know that this is the most precarious time you will face. It is likely that he will make threats and he will make promises. Often abused partners to have spent so much time taking emotional responsibility for their abusers that it is very common to cave at this juncture, to solve his pain and because you want to believe he's going to change the way he says he will.
He won't. They never do.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:47 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
He won't. They never do.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:47 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are you safe and secure?I would not let this guy know where you live.
posted by blueberry at 12:48 PM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: it's been 3 weeks. my friends urge me to cut off all contact with him but i don't have the heart to do that. sometimes he is nice when we talk and sometimes he is guilt inducing and angry that i "did this to him". no violence though, so that's good. it's very very hard to just excise someone from your life that has been your partner for 24 years (since the age of 16). financial separation agreement signed by both parties, so i have a measure of security there in that my assets are protected now. it's just a matter of waiting the 6 month waiting period in my state to file. every 3rd day or so i cry a lot and second guess my decision. his family is rallying around him and i'm cut off again. it's very hard. i feel like most of my friends are immune to divorce and see it as an everyday thing and don't understand why i'm struggling with it. hard to go through your first breakup and your marriage breakup all in one.
posted by TestamentToGrace at 8:02 PM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by TestamentToGrace at 8:02 PM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
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This thread is closed to new comments.
Emotional abuse is abuse. He is abusive enough that you are frightened to leave him -- that's abuse. You feel like a bad person because he's manipulating you into taking the blame for his behavior -- that's abuse.
Think of all the time, energy, and lifeforce you are expending in navigating this relationship. Any god I would want to believe in would want me to using that time and energy and lifeforce into making the world better, not cowering and shrinking and hiding. I also suspect that God did not mean for "Love your enemies" to indicate "Marry and have sex with your enemies," but I'll leave that for others with more religious training to tackle.
Are you in touch with your local domestic violence treatment and prevention agency? They may have good advice, or at least a listening ear. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1−800−799−7233 for help.
posted by jaguar at 9:00 AM on October 11, 2015 [42 favorites]