My boss hasn't paid me. It has been 3 weeks. Should I wait or quit?
October 10, 2015 9:53 AM Subscribe
I started this job 3 weeks ago and despite quitting and being re-hired, my boss has not really made enough changes to give me faith that he will pay me. I do not believe that I will get paid.
Despite being hired a while back, I only started this weekly-paying shop-job 3 weeks ago (my boss panic-hired after a member of staff quit) and despite working in Communications himself, I find my boss (the owner) completely uncommunicative.
Last weekend I quit and sent him a detailed email outlining exactly why (no lunch breaks, no pay, he is absent for days and doesn't tell anyone where he is, no information on what time the shop opens/closes or legal trading times, left alone with no information, he is inconsistent ...). I suggested changes, one being that he needed a manager to run things and improve communications between himself and staff. He agreed, apologised, asked me back and made me manager. Great. New title, will look good on the resume. He also asked me to email him my hours so I could get paid. Though he went to Germany (he has a high-paying, higher-priority job) without telling his staff, when he returned yesterday, he implemented changes to generate more business and started asking whether or not people had taken lunch (I can tell that he is not happy doing this btw). He is 'making a show' of these changes but I sense it will die down pretty quickly.
I have still not been paid. I very much doubt he has even contacted HRMC (tax office). Yesterday he told me that he wanted me to sign a contract which I am suspicious of (presumably it's because of the managerial position?) and that today we would discuss changes we can make in the business. This did not happen. He left an hour after I arrived with no mention of anything. We have a new starter today so I could not address this in front of him. An old worker returned yesterday and she told me that he is full of promises and that she had to make an agreement with his wife a long time ago to take her wages out of the till. She personally believes that he will pay me. 4 of us work here (including the new starter). Neither one of us has been paid. This is astonishing to me. 1 girl (a 17 year old) has not been paid coming up to 4 weeks and she is broke. She needs money to save for uni. I have been told by him that he has a high turnover of staff. I'm wondering if he's keeping us hanging around by doing this.
What would you do? I have no managerial experience and this is a good title to have (I also like the role) but I want to work with an owner who gives a shit about his staff and customers. If I put 'manager for 3 weeks' on my resume, it's not going to look very good and I doubt i'd get another managerial job. I like the role, I get on with the other workers (who have all kindly told me they would like me to manage the store) and I am upset that they are not being treated well, however I do not want to work another day knowing I am not going to get paid. I am due in on Monday. He won't be there (surprise surprise) so I would see him on Friday which means working another week without pay.
I have read this question however I have already addressed the pay problem with him before. Time for another email or should I just leave once and for all? I am fed up and demoralised.
Despite being hired a while back, I only started this weekly-paying shop-job 3 weeks ago (my boss panic-hired after a member of staff quit) and despite working in Communications himself, I find my boss (the owner) completely uncommunicative.
Last weekend I quit and sent him a detailed email outlining exactly why (no lunch breaks, no pay, he is absent for days and doesn't tell anyone where he is, no information on what time the shop opens/closes or legal trading times, left alone with no information, he is inconsistent ...). I suggested changes, one being that he needed a manager to run things and improve communications between himself and staff. He agreed, apologised, asked me back and made me manager. Great. New title, will look good on the resume. He also asked me to email him my hours so I could get paid. Though he went to Germany (he has a high-paying, higher-priority job) without telling his staff, when he returned yesterday, he implemented changes to generate more business and started asking whether or not people had taken lunch (I can tell that he is not happy doing this btw). He is 'making a show' of these changes but I sense it will die down pretty quickly.
I have still not been paid. I very much doubt he has even contacted HRMC (tax office). Yesterday he told me that he wanted me to sign a contract which I am suspicious of (presumably it's because of the managerial position?) and that today we would discuss changes we can make in the business. This did not happen. He left an hour after I arrived with no mention of anything. We have a new starter today so I could not address this in front of him. An old worker returned yesterday and she told me that he is full of promises and that she had to make an agreement with his wife a long time ago to take her wages out of the till. She personally believes that he will pay me. 4 of us work here (including the new starter). Neither one of us has been paid. This is astonishing to me. 1 girl (a 17 year old) has not been paid coming up to 4 weeks and she is broke. She needs money to save for uni. I have been told by him that he has a high turnover of staff. I'm wondering if he's keeping us hanging around by doing this.
What would you do? I have no managerial experience and this is a good title to have (I also like the role) but I want to work with an owner who gives a shit about his staff and customers. If I put 'manager for 3 weeks' on my resume, it's not going to look very good and I doubt i'd get another managerial job. I like the role, I get on with the other workers (who have all kindly told me they would like me to manage the store) and I am upset that they are not being treated well, however I do not want to work another day knowing I am not going to get paid. I am due in on Monday. He won't be there (surprise surprise) so I would see him on Friday which means working another week without pay.
I have read this question however I have already addressed the pay problem with him before. Time for another email or should I just leave once and for all? I am fed up and demoralised.
DTMFA.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 10:00 AM on October 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 10:00 AM on October 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
You and everyone else who works there should quit. This guy is at best an immoral, exploitative ass, and while I don't know UK law he's probably treating you criminally as well. You have no bridges to burn here - just go get a different job.
posted by brainmouse at 10:00 AM on October 10, 2015
posted by brainmouse at 10:00 AM on October 10, 2015
I have never seen "have a discussion with your boss" or anything like that be a fix for not getting paid. Not getting paid means that the business has no money. Not getting paid is for volunteers. Volunteers are for nonprofits. You need a job. Go find a job. Then find whatever government agency in the UK--I'd be highly surprised if this differs that much from the US--handles claims for unpaid wages, and go to them.
This business is functionally insolvent and is only continuing to operate because the staff is functionally extending credit to the employer. That's not the direction this financial relationship works. If the employer is creditworthy, they need to be taking loans from the bank, not you. If he's not creditworthy, then that's even more reason that letting him "borrow" your money is insane.
posted by Sequence at 10:04 AM on October 10, 2015 [23 favorites]
This business is functionally insolvent and is only continuing to operate because the staff is functionally extending credit to the employer. That's not the direction this financial relationship works. If the employer is creditworthy, they need to be taking loans from the bank, not you. If he's not creditworthy, then that's even more reason that letting him "borrow" your money is insane.
posted by Sequence at 10:04 AM on October 10, 2015 [23 favorites]
Talk to a lawyer before you report for your next shift, and follow that lawyer's advice.
posted by Etrigan at 10:05 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 10:05 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Actually, if there is money in the till I would divvy it up among the staff. Illegal? Yes, but he isn't going to pursue employees he hasn't been paying. This assumes there is enough float/revenue for this.
Depending on the situation, I may decide being a manager means I make sure my staff are paid and only deposit weekly revenues into the bank after everyone has been paid. Then send him a weekly email detailing how much has been paid to staff l, and telling him payroll taxes are his responsibility. Maybe cc'HMRC. This is dodgy and may expose you to liability, or it may be what he needs - someone to actually run the business for him (at a suitable rate of pay that is actually paid).
Also, as a manager your responsibility is to your staff so you SHOULD have addressed this in front of the new hire. Your actions at that time indicate you were willing to conspire with him to have people work under you knowing they will not be paid.
posted by saucysault at 10:07 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Depending on the situation, I may decide being a manager means I make sure my staff are paid and only deposit weekly revenues into the bank after everyone has been paid. Then send him a weekly email detailing how much has been paid to staff l, and telling him payroll taxes are his responsibility. Maybe cc'HMRC. This is dodgy and may expose you to liability, or it may be what he needs - someone to actually run the business for him (at a suitable rate of pay that is actually paid).
Also, as a manager your responsibility is to your staff so you SHOULD have addressed this in front of the new hire. Your actions at that time indicate you were willing to conspire with him to have people work under you knowing they will not be paid.
posted by saucysault at 10:07 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Leave now and don't go back.
Even if he eventually pays you, do you really want to have to chase him for every paycheck? Because that's obviously what's going to happen.
posted by snorkmaiden at 10:15 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Even if he eventually pays you, do you really want to have to chase him for every paycheck? Because that's obviously what's going to happen.
posted by snorkmaiden at 10:15 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Actually, if there is money in the till I would divvy it up among the staff. Illegal? Yes, but he isn't going to pursue employees he hasn't been paying. This assumes there is enough float/revenue for this.
Would you tell someone to collect a debt by stealing a bike from the debtor's porch?
Don't do this, OP.
posted by jason's_planet at 10:16 AM on October 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
Would you tell someone to collect a debt by stealing a bike from the debtor's porch?
Don't do this, OP.
posted by jason's_planet at 10:16 AM on October 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
Call his wife and make the same agreement the other employee made.
posted by AugustWest at 10:17 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by AugustWest at 10:17 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Get out now. This sounds sketchy as all hell to me and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that he blames you for all of this. I can see him saying "I put ihaveyourfoot in charge and told them to deal with everything" to whoever, which may ultimately include the police if he's engaged in fraud, asks. Do not sign anything.
posted by Solomon at 10:22 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Solomon at 10:22 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I also think you should contact a lawyer. Or just shortcut the whole thing by paying everyone back wages out of the till and leaving a detailed receipt and letters of resignation. It's probably illegal-ish, but so is not paying employees. I would mention the previous deal with the wife and "as per past policy sanctioned by WIFE the following BACK WAGES OWED were paid from the till this week."
- Detail and amounts
"This business does not seem solvent enough to afford the pay employees. We employees can not work for free or for promises. Here are your keys. We quit.
- List of names, each signs name."
Make sure you document the letter and leaving the keys behind. Lock up. Find new jobs.
posted by jbenben at 10:25 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
- Detail and amounts
"This business does not seem solvent enough to afford the pay employees. We employees can not work for free or for promises. Here are your keys. We quit.
- List of names, each signs name."
Make sure you document the letter and leaving the keys behind. Lock up. Find new jobs.
posted by jbenben at 10:25 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Agreed with everyone above (except the part about stealing from the till—a bit of vigilante justice might feel satisfying in the short term, but it's a dumb and needlessly risky move). Get the hell out of there. There is no scenario here that ends with you coming out ahead.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:34 AM on October 10, 2015
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:34 AM on October 10, 2015
In the UK I would contact the Citizens Advice Bureau and ask them who to talk to about not being paid (or even just start with their website). Citizens Advice might tell you you need a lawyer but there may also be a lot you can do without one, either way they should set you on the right path.
Then I'd both quit and take whatever legal or government action is appropriate. The UK has much stronger working protections than the US and there's no way this is legal. Since he's doing it to everyone working for him I'd have no problems taking him down on the way out, this business is doomed anyway.
posted by shelleycat at 10:39 AM on October 10, 2015 [14 favorites]
Then I'd both quit and take whatever legal or government action is appropriate. The UK has much stronger working protections than the US and there's no way this is legal. Since he's doing it to everyone working for him I'd have no problems taking him down on the way out, this business is doomed anyway.
posted by shelleycat at 10:39 AM on October 10, 2015 [14 favorites]
Shut the shop, go to the nearest CAB, do not pass Go, do not collect £200 from the till.
posted by holgate at 10:52 AM on October 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by holgate at 10:52 AM on October 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Leave now: he is never going to pay you all in full, so not only should you not sign anything he asks you to sign, all four of you should quit right this minute. I'd bet cash money that no, he hasn't paid any taxes he claims to be withholding either.
Keep track of how many hours you worked and how much he owes you, plus of course any and all documentation you can find. (Are there any sort of personnel records there in the store? At the very least, make yourself copies of everything!)
Look, I had a similar boss: he paid us, sort of --- late and usually short, but there was just enough in those paychecks to keep us all loyally working, hoping and believing that he'd catch it all up soon. Yeah, we believed all right: right up to his arrest for tax fraud: that money he said he'd been withholding from our paychecks and forwarding to the taxman? Guess what paid for his home-remodeling projects and new cars and other goodies?!? The company came within a hair of shutting down due to lack of funds, and our 70-year-old crook of a boss went to what we all referred to as "summer camp" --- that'd be the minimum-security federal work-camp he spent 10 months in --- and the courts confiscated his house and those new cars as repayment. We employees never did get the back pay we were owed; honestly, we considered ourselves lucky the tax people understood we didn't screw around with them, and most of us even managed to keep our jobs.
Trust me: you don't want to stick around only to all lose your jobs without warning (and with no chance of getting back pay) when the company goes into the toilet. Better to leave and find other jobs now.
(Oh, and that one person getting paid out of the till? I sure hope she's keeping good records....)
posted by easily confused at 11:02 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Keep track of how many hours you worked and how much he owes you, plus of course any and all documentation you can find. (Are there any sort of personnel records there in the store? At the very least, make yourself copies of everything!)
Look, I had a similar boss: he paid us, sort of --- late and usually short, but there was just enough in those paychecks to keep us all loyally working, hoping and believing that he'd catch it all up soon. Yeah, we believed all right: right up to his arrest for tax fraud: that money he said he'd been withholding from our paychecks and forwarding to the taxman? Guess what paid for his home-remodeling projects and new cars and other goodies?!? The company came within a hair of shutting down due to lack of funds, and our 70-year-old crook of a boss went to what we all referred to as "summer camp" --- that'd be the minimum-security federal work-camp he spent 10 months in --- and the courts confiscated his house and those new cars as repayment. We employees never did get the back pay we were owed; honestly, we considered ourselves lucky the tax people understood we didn't screw around with them, and most of us even managed to keep our jobs.
Trust me: you don't want to stick around only to all lose your jobs without warning (and with no chance of getting back pay) when the company goes into the toilet. Better to leave and find other jobs now.
(Oh, and that one person getting paid out of the till? I sure hope she's keeping good records....)
posted by easily confused at 11:02 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
You're not working for this guy, you're volunteering for him. You can continue to pretend to work there while you find yourself a real job and until you get through whatever it takes to get your pay if you feel this is for some reason a good idea (the experience?) but this is always going to be a horrifying disaster area and you need an actual job that pays you.
posted by jeather at 11:03 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jeather at 11:03 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
You might want to see if you can get some advice from your local law centre.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 11:50 AM on October 10, 2015
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 11:50 AM on October 10, 2015
Do not leave without cash in your hand. Be demanding and obnoxious to get it, because this job will NEVER be a reference for you.
"As of this morning, I am owed £XXXX in back pay. Pay me today, in cash, by 4 PM."
posted by DarlingBri at 11:57 AM on October 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
"As of this morning, I am owed £XXXX in back pay. Pay me today, in cash, by 4 PM."
posted by DarlingBri at 11:57 AM on October 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I rescind my previous advice. I agree he's some kind of crook and you do NOT want to sign any paperwork or be around when the authorities get involved and start looking for him.
Cut bait, forget the money -- RUN.
posted by jbenben at 12:19 PM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Cut bait, forget the money -- RUN.
posted by jbenben at 12:19 PM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is one of the sketchiest experiences I've ever heard of. Get out now, and explore your options to report/bring charges.
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on October 10, 2015
If you're not getting paid, then this isn't a job. If you like working for free do you want to come and clean my house? Of course not, that's ridiculous. This is the same thing.
posted by STFUDonnie at 9:06 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by STFUDonnie at 9:06 PM on October 10, 2015
This sounds exactly like the job my wife had around 2006-7. (That shop sold fancy stationery in the Cambridge Circus area). From watching that play out I have to add my voice to the chorus of people saying cut your losses and get out. The behaviour is symptomatic of someone spiralling into failure through a combination of greed, laziness and narcissistic fantasy. He will fail, you will not get paid, or at least not much of it. The aforementioned greed, laziness, and narcissism suggest that if you try to get settlement by extracurricular means (and that at least one person has resorted to that is very suggestive of desperate scrambling on the company's part) you could be opening yourself to all sorts of distressing complications, legal and otherwise. Get away from there.
Furthermore, experience suggests that you follow the advice regarding oxygen masks that they give on every flight: First make sure that your own mask is in place, only then help as many other people as you can.
posted by Grangousier at 3:20 AM on October 11, 2015
Furthermore, experience suggests that you follow the advice regarding oxygen masks that they give on every flight: First make sure that your own mask is in place, only then help as many other people as you can.
posted by Grangousier at 3:20 AM on October 11, 2015
Response by poster: Wow! Thanks so much for the responses. I have no idea why I feel guilty for not waiting a little longer for him. He just asked me to come in today at short notice because the person covering for him had to leave for an emergency. I was thinking of saying 'will I get paid if I come in today?' then never returning after that. Good plan or just cut my losses and go?
My main concern is that I would not be able to write 'shop manager' on my resume although I have sort of done that and I intend to hand it into shops anyway then maybe explain the situation (although I don't want them to think I am 'bitching' about a former boss).
With regards to a lawyer - I don't have the money to pay them but I will definitely go to Citizen's Advice Bureau.
Thanks again!
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:51 AM on October 11, 2015
My main concern is that I would not be able to write 'shop manager' on my resume although I have sort of done that and I intend to hand it into shops anyway then maybe explain the situation (although I don't want them to think I am 'bitching' about a former boss).
With regards to a lawyer - I don't have the money to pay them but I will definitely go to Citizen's Advice Bureau.
Thanks again!
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:51 AM on October 11, 2015
He needs to pay you and you need a contract. If you take money out of the till, you don't pay taxes or NI, you could get into a whole load of trouble with the tax office.
I would tell him you don't come back until you have the contract and your wages. That doesn't close the door completely, but you won't be used anymore either.
If you are really interested in running this place and he is so unreliable, you will need to get access to the accounts and manage the staff and wages yourself. If he isn't willing to do that, it could be that he only uses this place to write off tax against his better earning main job and he will actually not wanting it to make a profit.
posted by Madpiano at 7:42 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would tell him you don't come back until you have the contract and your wages. That doesn't close the door completely, but you won't be used anymore either.
If you are really interested in running this place and he is so unreliable, you will need to get access to the accounts and manage the staff and wages yourself. If he isn't willing to do that, it could be that he only uses this place to write off tax against his better earning main job and he will actually not wanting it to make a profit.
posted by Madpiano at 7:42 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are businesses in central London that exist by having people work for them for free for a few weeks and then walking out and being immediately replaced, and the employer just assumes that most people won't bother pursuing it if they stonewall them. That is what this business is doing. I know that because you don't know anybody working there who has ever been paid. I also know that because you've been made a "manager" with no experience or training. It is usually shops or pubs, places where new staff will walk in off the street. Do not imagine that there will ever come a time when you will be paid regularly - that isn't the business model.
You have to ignore the CV aspect - he has a high turnover because he doesn't pay people, you are never going to stay long enough for this to be useful on your CV. Are you going to go without pay for 6-12 months? No of course not. This isn't an actual job.
You can claim for lost wages via small claims. You should write a "letter before action" to whoever the registered director of the business is, at the business's registered address.
Honestly just asking for those details has been enough to get me paid immediately in cash in the past, because people do not want to be barred from running a company (which is what will happen if they get CCJs against them). I have said to my boss "I'm sending you a letter before action for my illegally witheld wages. I need x, y, and z info so the letter is served correctly, can you give me this info?" and both times the guy literally gave me the cash there and then (it was that pub on Neal St opposite Diesel, and some Shepherd's Bush PR agency if anyone wants to join my boycott). The PR agency gave me the money in coppers to spite me (it was about £200) but I didn't care because I was still paid. So it's worth trying that, and if he doesn't cough up then yes do actually take him to small claims court. Judges do not look kindly on bosses not paying wages. And FFS no do not work a single shift more in this place.
posted by tinkletown at 7:44 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
You have to ignore the CV aspect - he has a high turnover because he doesn't pay people, you are never going to stay long enough for this to be useful on your CV. Are you going to go without pay for 6-12 months? No of course not. This isn't an actual job.
You can claim for lost wages via small claims. You should write a "letter before action" to whoever the registered director of the business is, at the business's registered address.
Honestly just asking for those details has been enough to get me paid immediately in cash in the past, because people do not want to be barred from running a company (which is what will happen if they get CCJs against them). I have said to my boss "I'm sending you a letter before action for my illegally witheld wages. I need x, y, and z info so the letter is served correctly, can you give me this info?" and both times the guy literally gave me the cash there and then (it was that pub on Neal St opposite Diesel, and some Shepherd's Bush PR agency if anyone wants to join my boycott). The PR agency gave me the money in coppers to spite me (it was about £200) but I didn't care because I was still paid. So it's worth trying that, and if he doesn't cough up then yes do actually take him to small claims court. Judges do not look kindly on bosses not paying wages. And FFS no do not work a single shift more in this place.
posted by tinkletown at 7:44 AM on October 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Well I sent that text asking 'if I come in will I get paid as I haven't been paid for a number of weeks?' and he has not responded (i'm guessing to avoid framing himself or maybe he's consulting a dodgy lawyer friend before he responds). Unfortunately as my phone did not have enough memory, the message I sent did not get saved (I have an old phone). I strongly suspect that you are right, Tinkletown and that he has people working for him for free for a number of weeks and replaces them. He is the Director of the company (from what LinkedIn says).
I will go to Citizen's Advice tomorrow and mention that letter-before-action and i'll follow their advice. What is the 'x,y and z info' that I need btw?
I know that pub and this is also not the first time this has happened to me but I let that other one pass (it was 3 days' pay). I have a feeling that this bloke will give me the money in coppers too which I can't imagine would make the bank happy and would look very dodgy. And don't worry people, I am not going to take money out of the till!
Thanks.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 8:00 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will go to Citizen's Advice tomorrow and mention that letter-before-action and i'll follow their advice. What is the 'x,y and z info' that I need btw?
I know that pub and this is also not the first time this has happened to me but I let that other one pass (it was 3 days' pay). I have a feeling that this bloke will give me the money in coppers too which I can't imagine would make the bank happy and would look very dodgy. And don't worry people, I am not going to take money out of the till!
Thanks.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 8:00 AM on October 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately as my phone did not have enough memory, the message I sent did not get saved (I have an old phone).
Oh no. Listen, you need to document everything that happens, and not take risks like that. Maybe you can communicate in email, or by phone and record it, if your text system doesn't work. Can you even be sure he got it? You have an important cause of action but you're going to need to have notes and documentation. Don't use any ephemeral approaches from now on. You might also want to stop now, sit down and write out every major action/agreement along the path of your "employment" at this place, so you can reconstruct it clearly while it's still sharp in your memory. Don't wait long or the details will start to blur.
My main concern is that I would not be able to write 'shop manager' on my resume although I have sort of done that and I intend to hand it into shops anyway then maybe explain the situation (although I don't want them to think I am 'bitching' about a former boss).
Let it go. You didn't really have the job since you weren't given the controls that go with it, and I think it would only read as a negative if you try to describe it to someone who asks why you had only 3 weeks of employment at a place. Especially if you then say "and so I filed a legal complaint" - that's going to potentially raise flags that you are a lay lawyer type. Also, it sounds like if they attempted to call the business and verify your employment there, they might get an earful of stuff you wouldn't want them to hear. It gives the bad employer a chance to spin. You got this job, you can get another.
Cut your losses, get out, document all responses/interactions, take legal action and sue for lost wages.
posted by Miko at 8:30 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh no. Listen, you need to document everything that happens, and not take risks like that. Maybe you can communicate in email, or by phone and record it, if your text system doesn't work. Can you even be sure he got it? You have an important cause of action but you're going to need to have notes and documentation. Don't use any ephemeral approaches from now on. You might also want to stop now, sit down and write out every major action/agreement along the path of your "employment" at this place, so you can reconstruct it clearly while it's still sharp in your memory. Don't wait long or the details will start to blur.
My main concern is that I would not be able to write 'shop manager' on my resume although I have sort of done that and I intend to hand it into shops anyway then maybe explain the situation (although I don't want them to think I am 'bitching' about a former boss).
Let it go. You didn't really have the job since you weren't given the controls that go with it, and I think it would only read as a negative if you try to describe it to someone who asks why you had only 3 weeks of employment at a place. Especially if you then say "and so I filed a legal complaint" - that's going to potentially raise flags that you are a lay lawyer type. Also, it sounds like if they attempted to call the business and verify your employment there, they might get an earful of stuff you wouldn't want them to hear. It gives the bad employer a chance to spin. You got this job, you can get another.
Cut your losses, get out, document all responses/interactions, take legal action and sue for lost wages.
posted by Miko at 8:30 AM on October 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks very much, Miko. I have since kept every text and email.
Update (sorry if this is considered threadsitting but i'm in the midst of it):
Last night he sent a text asking for my payment details and for me to sent the info urgently because he is meetings. He is worried that no one will be in the shop today as I told him I will work for him only once the money comes through (and I wish I had worded that differently - hopefully that's not legally binding since I meant 'I may possibly work for you once i get the money but not likely'). He has sent me a proper contract (PDF) stating that I am a manager on a probationary period so it all seems legit and it states that I would be paid every Monday but in cash (and he would deduct the tax). He apologised for not going through it this weekend and it seems as if he is very slow and needs a push but I am still not certain that this would work for me even though he has presented a contract. I don't believe he will pay the cash and I think he will be slack. He has done everything I asked him to do but I have signed nothing. I keep feeling as if I am missing out on a good career opportunity especially as it's Part Time.
Thanks again for your help.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 12:26 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Update (sorry if this is considered threadsitting but i'm in the midst of it):
Last night he sent a text asking for my payment details and for me to sent the info urgently because he is meetings. He is worried that no one will be in the shop today as I told him I will work for him only once the money comes through (and I wish I had worded that differently - hopefully that's not legally binding since I meant 'I may possibly work for you once i get the money but not likely'). He has sent me a proper contract (PDF) stating that I am a manager on a probationary period so it all seems legit and it states that I would be paid every Monday but in cash (and he would deduct the tax). He apologised for not going through it this weekend and it seems as if he is very slow and needs a push but I am still not certain that this would work for me even though he has presented a contract. I don't believe he will pay the cash and I think he will be slack. He has done everything I asked him to do but I have signed nothing. I keep feeling as if I am missing out on a good career opportunity especially as it's Part Time.
Thanks again for your help.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 12:26 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd still refuse to sign ANY kind of contract with this sleezeball, but if you want to: get that contract read by a lawyer BEFORE you sign. And if he tries to pressure you to sign right there, on the spot? Walk away!
posted by easily confused at 2:21 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by easily confused at 2:21 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm only repeating myself because this is breaking my heart:
You're not getting paid, therefore you have no job, therefore this is not a career opportunity. This man is taking advantage of your good nature. He is not your boss, he is a thief.
posted by STFUDonnie at 4:36 AM on October 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
You're not getting paid, therefore you have no job, therefore this is not a career opportunity. This man is taking advantage of your good nature. He is not your boss, he is a thief.
posted by STFUDonnie at 4:36 AM on October 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
He has not done everything you asked, you have not been paid.
How is this not clear?
posted by jbenben at 5:33 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
How is this not clear?
posted by jbenben at 5:33 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is not a career opportunity, unless you want a career in being exploited by shady bosses who don't pay you. As tinkletown says, there are too many people in London who get away with running this scam because there are too many people in a tight job market who think 'career opportunity'. Don't be one of those people any more. Don't set foot in the shop till you're paid, and then don't set foot in the shop anyway.
posted by holgate at 6:03 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by holgate at 6:03 AM on October 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I'll pay you in cash but I promise I will deduct the tax" = "I'll underpay you in cash and not pay the taxes and get you in trouble with the appropriate tax authority"
This is the opposite of legit.
posted by jeather at 6:59 AM on October 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is the opposite of legit.
posted by jeather at 6:59 AM on October 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Even if he pays you in cash (and lots of places do, to be fair), you aren't going to get a payslip, because as Jeather says he isn't going to be making any tax or NI contributions. You are going to have this amount of hassle getting paid every single week. To have this job usefully on your CV you would have to hold this job for 6-12months, which is clearly not tenable. It has been 3 weeks, for god's sake cut your losses.
Go to CAB. They will help you draft a letter before action - in mine I laid out the laws they were in contravention of (get that info from the CAB), calculated my GROSS earnings (because they clearly weren't going to pay my tax in my case either so I had to contact the tax office myself later), and gave them 7 days to pay up before I took them to court. I needed the director's name and the company's registered address, and I sent it recorded delivery so they couldn't deny receiving it. Then if they don't pay up, you start small claims action literally on day 8. Don't talk to them or let them try to come to an arrangement - they will try to hoodwink you again. Have a look through these pages - you'd have probably have a good claim for constructive dismissal, or you could just report them straight to the tax office (probably easier).
(And there is no legally enforceable contract they can make you sign that can force you to keep working there, but there are certainly contracts that say that since you're on probation you'll work the first month for free or on half pay, or something stupid like that. So yes please read everything extremely carefully).
posted by tinkletown at 7:37 AM on October 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Go to CAB. They will help you draft a letter before action - in mine I laid out the laws they were in contravention of (get that info from the CAB), calculated my GROSS earnings (because they clearly weren't going to pay my tax in my case either so I had to contact the tax office myself later), and gave them 7 days to pay up before I took them to court. I needed the director's name and the company's registered address, and I sent it recorded delivery so they couldn't deny receiving it. Then if they don't pay up, you start small claims action literally on day 8. Don't talk to them or let them try to come to an arrangement - they will try to hoodwink you again. Have a look through these pages - you'd have probably have a good claim for constructive dismissal, or you could just report them straight to the tax office (probably easier).
(And there is no legally enforceable contract they can make you sign that can force you to keep working there, but there are certainly contracts that say that since you're on probation you'll work the first month for free or on half pay, or something stupid like that. So yes please read everything extremely carefully).
posted by tinkletown at 7:37 AM on October 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is very clear advice too. CAB have lots of stuff on their website. The terminology is "illegal deduction from wages".
posted by tinkletown at 7:45 AM on October 12, 2015
posted by tinkletown at 7:45 AM on October 12, 2015
I don't know the UK law but in the US you are entitled to a statement showing the amount and name of the taxes drawn from your employment wages. here, this protects you from any liability for back taxes if fraud is discovered down the line. So at a minimum, you would need a pay stub or other tax statement with each payroll disbursement.
Try to get your pay first, before doing anything.
posted by Miko at 8:04 AM on October 12, 2015
Try to get your pay first, before doing anything.
posted by Miko at 8:04 AM on October 12, 2015
N'thing not going back is the best option but if you decide to stay insist on being paid two weeks in advance. So, before you work a shift all of your back pay must be up to date (including taxes) and the pay you get on Monday is payment until the following Second Monday. That way if you don't get paid you don't work - literally turn around and walk out if the money isn't in your hands before your shift on Monday, but you won't be out any cash.
As manager of an absentee owner, ALL employees complaints of not getting paid are going to go to you. That will make your job as manager impossible. So your second demand must be that your staff are also made whole and also paid in advance by two weeks. They don't get their pay on the Monday? Then you also don't work.
Is this store even profitable with paid employees?
This is an awful lot of stress and bother.
posted by saucysault at 9:40 AM on October 12, 2015
As manager of an absentee owner, ALL employees complaints of not getting paid are going to go to you. That will make your job as manager impossible. So your second demand must be that your staff are also made whole and also paid in advance by two weeks. They don't get their pay on the Monday? Then you also don't work.
Is this store even profitable with paid employees?
This is an awful lot of stress and bother.
posted by saucysault at 9:40 AM on October 12, 2015
I'm sorry, this job isn't going to work out. A job means wages paid. You aren't an owner, putting in sweat equity. There is no career opportunity here.
BTW: if you talk to a lawyer, don't go saying you talked to a lawyer. A good, reasonable boss doesn't need threats to make wages appear.
posted by Classic Diner at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2015
BTW: if you talk to a lawyer, don't go saying you talked to a lawyer. A good, reasonable boss doesn't need threats to make wages appear.
posted by Classic Diner at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2015
Response by poster: Final update: I got paid. It went into my account (hopefully he can't somehow take it back out/cancel the payment). I need to update with HRMC. I agree about him probably not paying me properly in cash in future and that I would have to keep on chasing so I did not go in yesterday and sent a text and email (apologetically - yes I am a doormat) when he asked. I have not had a response.
I really appreciate the help from everyone and I am marking this as resolved! :)
Thank you!
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 2:33 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I really appreciate the help from everyone and I am marking this as resolved! :)
Thank you!
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 2:33 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Great! Go ahead and update the HRMC, but don't tell them something like "the problem is all solved now" --- it'd be a good idea to keep this guy on their radar, because he's pretty sure to pull this stuff again. And even if he has paid you in cash, if he says he's withheld even one single penny from your pay "for taxes" then make sure you get documentation from him about that: you don't want to be telling the taxman this guy verbally promised he paid them for your taxes only to have them tell you 'Nope, never heard of him. Pay up now.'
Also, let your coworkers know what you've done, so they can get their pay too!
posted by easily confused at 7:31 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, let your coworkers know what you've done, so they can get their pay too!
posted by easily confused at 7:31 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
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Then hit them up in small claims court or whatever equivalent you have there and get your pay out of them if they don't pay up immediately.
posted by emilyw at 9:57 AM on October 10, 2015 [34 favorites]