Did I see what I thought I saw?
October 8, 2015 11:05 AM Subscribe
My apartment complex switched to single container recycling a few months ago. You just take your recyclables and chuck them into an enormous, trailer sized metal container. A few weeks ago I drove past a garbage truck from the recycling company parked next to the container. On the ground, spread out on tarps, were several children, probably 8-10 years old, sorting stuff from the recycling container into piles. I have several concerns and questions here.
1. It's *probably* safe to assume that these children are the progeny of workers from the garbage/recycling company as opposed to random child labor. For all I know it's a family type operation. However, is it actually legal to do this? I mean, we all know people who worked in their daddy's restaurant or on the family farm starting at young ages, and I am concerned that I am making a mountain out of a molehill due to subconscious bias. My dad gave me pocket change when I was 6 or 7 to staple document packets for a work presentation when I was a kid even though it was technically his secretary's job (he wanted to keep me busy while he worked), so I don't know if this is fundamentally different.
2. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable trading my own convenience for extremely cheap or possibly free labor. It was one thing to feel vaguely bad for the people who eventually had to sort the things after we switched to single-container, but I figured, hey, it's a job. Even my aunt who works as an HR manager had a part-time job at a recycling center for "vacation money." But if the company is using children to sort, I somehow feel much worse about it. Am I overreacting?
3. If using children to sort garbage is as bad as it currently feels to me, what, if anything, should I do about it?
1. It's *probably* safe to assume that these children are the progeny of workers from the garbage/recycling company as opposed to random child labor. For all I know it's a family type operation. However, is it actually legal to do this? I mean, we all know people who worked in their daddy's restaurant or on the family farm starting at young ages, and I am concerned that I am making a mountain out of a molehill due to subconscious bias. My dad gave me pocket change when I was 6 or 7 to staple document packets for a work presentation when I was a kid even though it was technically his secretary's job (he wanted to keep me busy while he worked), so I don't know if this is fundamentally different.
2. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable trading my own convenience for extremely cheap or possibly free labor. It was one thing to feel vaguely bad for the people who eventually had to sort the things after we switched to single-container, but I figured, hey, it's a job. Even my aunt who works as an HR manager had a part-time job at a recycling center for "vacation money." But if the company is using children to sort, I somehow feel much worse about it. Am I overreacting?
3. If using children to sort garbage is as bad as it currently feels to me, what, if anything, should I do about it?
Best answer: My guess is they are bringing them in for extra cash that the corporation running the show would normally be getting?
In NYC/NJ it is common to see people regularly collect the cans before they are recycled so they get the deposit and no one cares. To be honest, I have been told on good authority that both my city's recycling program as well as my employer's "green building" that the recycling programs are totally bogus and the cans get mixed in when no one is looking.
But kids, yes- that is problematic.
posted by TenaciousB at 11:15 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
In NYC/NJ it is common to see people regularly collect the cans before they are recycled so they get the deposit and no one cares. To be honest, I have been told on good authority that both my city's recycling program as well as my employer's "green building" that the recycling programs are totally bogus and the cans get mixed in when no one is looking.
But kids, yes- that is problematic.
posted by TenaciousB at 11:15 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just from a safety standpoint, it cannot be legal. Call child services. Document it every time you see it. I'm assuming the children were not wearing gloves or masks?
posted by myselfasme at 11:16 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by myselfasme at 11:16 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe there is a reasonable explanation such as a family accidentally threw out something they needed and they are working with the company to get it back.
Fwiw, in my town, we are single stream recycling and the revenue the town generates from selling the recycling is a line item in the town's budget so anyone and everyone can see it.
posted by AugustWest at 11:17 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fwiw, in my town, we are single stream recycling and the revenue the town generates from selling the recycling is a line item in the town's budget so anyone and everyone can see it.
posted by AugustWest at 11:17 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is it possible that the children in question were taking part in an educational "learn about recycling" experience through a school, scouts, youth group, etc... rather than acting as child labor? I can think of a number of times in school where various student groups did an activity that boiled down to "sort through the trash and make piles to show everyone how much stuff they throw away that should be recycled/composted." That would certainly be one explanation. Another explanation is that they are sorting out the cans and bottles to return them for cash.
Did this take place in the United States and what kind of recycling company are we talking about? A big corporate concern or a guy with a truck?
posted by zachlipton at 11:17 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
Did this take place in the United States and what kind of recycling company are we talking about? A big corporate concern or a guy with a truck?
posted by zachlipton at 11:17 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is not so unusual in many parts of the world. Where do you live?
posted by ryanrs at 11:23 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 11:23 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Not thread-sitting, just answering questions:
1. This took place in New York State. The truck parked outside the the recycling container was a garbage truck. Both the recycling container and truck had the same names printed on the outside. I would say that this is probably a small corporation, but have no research to back this up. It's definitely more than a guy with a truck, though.
2. The children were not wearing any PPE.
3. I only saw this once, but the trailer sized container is only emptied once every several weeks, so I don't know if this is a common practice.
posted by xyzzy at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2015
1. This took place in New York State. The truck parked outside the the recycling container was a garbage truck. Both the recycling container and truck had the same names printed on the outside. I would say that this is probably a small corporation, but have no research to back this up. It's definitely more than a guy with a truck, though.
2. The children were not wearing any PPE.
3. I only saw this once, but the trailer sized container is only emptied once every several weeks, so I don't know if this is a common practice.
posted by xyzzy at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2015
I would totally assume they're looking for returnables to turn in for a nickel each. I totally did this as a broke scruffy kid. I agree that it's nasty, given our general rising standards for kids' hygeine since the 70s, but would never have assumed they were performing labor for the company.
posted by Miko at 11:28 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Miko at 11:28 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah, I was gonna say they're probably looking for $.05 deposit cans and bottles. Doesn't sound safe or legal, but I'd assume that's what they were doing.
It is my understanding single stream recycling is sorted at sorting centers, not by dumping the truck out on a tarp.
posted by bondcliff at 11:30 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
It is my understanding single stream recycling is sorted at sorting centers, not by dumping the truck out on a tarp.
posted by bondcliff at 11:30 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'd second the returnables thing. That was my main source of income as a 10-year-old and I pawed through some grody shit in my time to get the cans and so on. Maybe not the most hygienic thing a 10-year-old can do but also probably not Dickensian child labor.
posted by griphus at 11:33 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by griphus at 11:33 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: There was an adult, presumably the one who drove the truck there, leaning against the truck and appearing to "oversee" the operation. Which makes Tenacious' response seem the most likely--that a worker was using his kids to "steal" returnables from his employer before emptying the container into his truck.
posted by xyzzy at 11:35 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by xyzzy at 11:35 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Please don't call the police or Child Services. If this is a parent doing this, it's probably a bad decision, but nothing worth losing your kids over. That's not in anyone's best interests.
posted by dripdripdrop at 11:38 AM on October 8, 2015 [43 favorites]
posted by dripdripdrop at 11:38 AM on October 8, 2015 [43 favorites]
Which makes Tenacious' response seem the most likely--that a worker was using his kids to "steal" returnables from his employer before emptying the container into his truck.
Or, you know, the other likely possibility that one of the kids was like "hey man can we do this thing on your route, we do it on a few others" and the guy was like "yeah i know what it's like to grow up broke" and that was that.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:45 AM on October 8, 2015 [17 favorites]
Or, you know, the other likely possibility that one of the kids was like "hey man can we do this thing on your route, we do it on a few others" and the guy was like "yeah i know what it's like to grow up broke" and that was that.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:45 AM on October 8, 2015 [17 favorites]
I'd be more inclined to believe that the driver was allowing kids to pull out the returnables. They definitely aren't working for the company and they probably aren't the driver's kids.
If I was a driver and broke kids asked to do that, I'd let them do it - even though it's a terrible choice. I've been broke and I'd let them pull money out of stuff that was just going to the dump anyway.
posted by 26.2 at 11:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
If I was a driver and broke kids asked to do that, I'd let them do it - even though it's a terrible choice. I've been broke and I'd let them pull money out of stuff that was just going to the dump anyway.
posted by 26.2 at 11:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Clarifying question for poffin and 26.2: Are you insinuating that the driver drives random kids around to grab cans before he empties? I mean, I see plenty of people (adults and children) grabbing stuff out of the recycling trailer at all hours of the day and night and never bat an eye. It sucks to be poor and I know this from personal experience. It just felt more "official" than what I usually see, with the tarps and all that. But, as I said, I was concerned about subconscious bias, which is why I asked.
posted by xyzzy at 11:57 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by xyzzy at 11:57 AM on October 8, 2015
Did the kids get in and out of the truck? Is the driver is taking these kids around with him on his rounds, or do they just appear and start going through things? I would document but not do anything for the time being.
posted by the webmistress at 12:04 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by the webmistress at 12:04 PM on October 8, 2015
No, just that a bunch of neighborhood kids went up to him and said "hey can we grab the deposit cans from this container right here". I don't think a strange man is transporting random minors around town in his company vehicle.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:17 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:17 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's clear and I think you should have whoever contracts with these people ask them what is going on. Or maybe they have already and they'll explain it to you. If this guy is making his rounds with the kids in the truck, that is not cool on a number of levels.
We had some people show up at my place of work to do some painting with a kid in tow. He was just kind of hanging around; my guess is they couldn't get a babysitter. But our landlord flipped out that they were on the clock with a kid there and they were told to leave.
I don't think it's bad for kids to be collecting returnables. If they are just strangers who asked the guy to let them sort the stuff, that is different from if he brought them. Although I cannot quite figure out how that works in the sense that he is standing there while they do it. Who has time for when they are working?
posted by BibiRose at 12:21 PM on October 8, 2015
We had some people show up at my place of work to do some painting with a kid in tow. He was just kind of hanging around; my guess is they couldn't get a babysitter. But our landlord flipped out that they were on the clock with a kid there and they were told to leave.
I don't think it's bad for kids to be collecting returnables. If they are just strangers who asked the guy to let them sort the stuff, that is different from if he brought them. Although I cannot quite figure out how that works in the sense that he is standing there while they do it. Who has time for when they are working?
posted by BibiRose at 12:21 PM on October 8, 2015
Who even knows if it was the children of the sanitation workers? It could have just been children in the neighborhood who asked to have first pass at the recyclables before they got collected.
posted by Flamingo at 12:29 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by Flamingo at 12:29 PM on October 8, 2015
BTW, if you bring this up to the company, they will likely fire the driver. Those returnables are a significant part of the income for the company and they will treat it as theft. In some areas the recycling companies have even tried to get the cops to prosecute poor people taking cans out of recycling bins.
posted by ryanrs at 12:33 PM on October 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 12:33 PM on October 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
My boyfriend used to do stuff like that as a kid in Calgary looking for glass bottles to return to the bottle depot. They had very little money and it helped his mum buy groceries. The most likely explanation isn't child labour, but that this is enterprising neighbourhood children asking the driver to let them to pick out returnables. No one seems to have been in danger (at least the kids aren't trying to climb in the container), and if it were me I'd keep out of it.
posted by tinwhiskers at 12:53 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tinwhiskers at 12:53 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I might ask the driver next week if I I thought of it and he was accessible [walking around outside the truck, for example, I wouldn't flag him down while he was driving].
posted by chazlarson at 1:02 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by chazlarson at 1:02 PM on October 8, 2015
If you see children being put in danger or harm's way you have the duty inform either the parent or an intermediary.
posted by Nevin at 1:12 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Nevin at 1:12 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree that it sounds like the kids are hunting for deposit items. Trying to talk to the driver (or the kids) next time you see them sounds like a good idea. I would definitely want to know their situation before calling in any kind of authority that might cut of someone's much-needed income.
Here in PDX we have single-stream, but it's not unusual for residents (sometimes even businesses) to intentionally separate returnable cans and bottles into a separate bucket/bag, which is invariably picked up by someone, usually to be loaded into a shopping cart and pushed to the nearest can return. It takes little effort on our part and saves someone who's already in a difficult situation the trouble of digging through yet another bin.
posted by sibilatorix at 1:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here in PDX we have single-stream, but it's not unusual for residents (sometimes even businesses) to intentionally separate returnable cans and bottles into a separate bucket/bag, which is invariably picked up by someone, usually to be loaded into a shopping cart and pushed to the nearest can return. It takes little effort on our part and saves someone who's already in a difficult situation the trouble of digging through yet another bin.
posted by sibilatorix at 1:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
For single-stream recycling, sorting is done on a huge conveyor line at a central sorting facility. I worked a temp job in such a facility when I was in high school.
One benefit of this system is that it saves driver's time (just dump it all in one truck and move on). If they have to sit there sorting out the recyclables before they go on the truck, it's actually worse time-wise than having people sort it out themselves.
If you wanted to get the driver in trouble, you could report this to your sanitation department.
posted by muddgirl at 1:23 PM on October 8, 2015
One benefit of this system is that it saves driver's time (just dump it all in one truck and move on). If they have to sit there sorting out the recyclables before they go on the truck, it's actually worse time-wise than having people sort it out themselves.
If you wanted to get the driver in trouble, you could report this to your sanitation department.
posted by muddgirl at 1:23 PM on October 8, 2015
Best answer: This is absolutely bizarre. I really don't know what to make of it.
1. Single-stream is sorted with machines and/or on a conveyor belt. This is how it's done in developing countries, but definitely not in the US.
2. The driver has a schedule. They can't just spend an hour letting kids sort through stuff--that would cost their company a fortune.
3. The hazards of this are absolutely ridiculous--people throw all sorts of terrible disgusting stuff in their recycling and trash.
4. I suppose the nickel deposit theory is possible, but it just seems like an agonizing way to make a few bucks, and I don't get why they'd be doing this officially.
5. The idea that the employee is using his kids to make a few dollars sorting stuff out of there seems insane--why risk your job, your kids' health, and potentially custody of your kids for a few dollars?
6. As I said, the driver has a schedule, at least in theory. This would be so inefficient, unless they're using their lunch break or something, that folks at the office would probably notice fairly quickly.
posted by Slinga at 2:07 PM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
1. Single-stream is sorted with machines and/or on a conveyor belt. This is how it's done in developing countries, but definitely not in the US.
2. The driver has a schedule. They can't just spend an hour letting kids sort through stuff--that would cost their company a fortune.
3. The hazards of this are absolutely ridiculous--people throw all sorts of terrible disgusting stuff in their recycling and trash.
4. I suppose the nickel deposit theory is possible, but it just seems like an agonizing way to make a few bucks, and I don't get why they'd be doing this officially.
5. The idea that the employee is using his kids to make a few dollars sorting stuff out of there seems insane--why risk your job, your kids' health, and potentially custody of your kids for a few dollars?
6. As I said, the driver has a schedule, at least in theory. This would be so inefficient, unless they're using their lunch break or something, that folks at the office would probably notice fairly quickly.
posted by Slinga at 2:07 PM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
Best answer: sibilatorix - we do the same thing. We have 2 bins even though its single stream. We use one for cardboard and cans and one for returnables. Based on the number of recycle bins, I think a lot of my neighbors do it too. It's no work for us and probably a lot safer for the people digging in the bins.
OP that might be an action you can take - maybe put your returnables out in a separate bag next to the dumpster.
posted by 26.2 at 2:51 PM on October 8, 2015
OP that might be an action you can take - maybe put your returnables out in a separate bag next to the dumpster.
posted by 26.2 at 2:51 PM on October 8, 2015
Best answer: I am all for children's rights, including the right to work for fair pay in a safe and non-exploitative environment. However in most cases our society does not provide this right to children. This means there is a chance this situation may not be safe or fair to the children involved.
Please do something until you feel reassured the situation is okay. If you don't no one else will.
posted by Shanda at 2:54 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Please do something until you feel reassured the situation is okay. If you don't no one else will.
posted by Shanda at 2:54 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
If I saw this and if the kids weren't interfering with the normal functioning of the neighborhood and there were no obvious signs of exploitation going on I would mind my own business. I agree with advice above that striking up a friendly convo with the kids would probably be the best thing to do if you wanna keep tabs on the situation. The worst you could do? Bringing in the police or other authorities.
posted by telstar at 4:19 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by telstar at 4:19 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
I drove past a garbage truck from the recycling company parked next to the container ... several children, probably 8-10 years old, sorting stuff from the recycling container into piles.
Several thoughts about this:
(1) It is extremely unlikely that a recycling operation WITH A GARBAGE TRUCK is going to be a "family operation" that is so casually run that they have children working for them. So right from the jump, this strikes me as an extremely shady "skimming" operation where, quite likely, an employee of the company is siphoning off "valuable" recyclables to line his or her own pockets and that stuff isn't making it into the recycling facility through the normal stream of collected materials. Thus, it is at least very plausible that you are witnessing not only exploitation of children, but embezzlement.
(2) I don't think working on and around garbage trucks and sorting potentially dangerous recyclable materials is a field in which it would EVER be legal to have children aged 8 or 10 working. Even the average, domestic recycling container in a residential area would very possibly contain materials you would not want children touching, inhaling, or being exposed to. Aside from hazardous materials, there are other hazards (sharp edges presenting cutting hazards, potential for disease and infection, etc.).
(3) Any recycling company is almost certainly going to have rules against children working for them in ANY capacity. The legal liability, the potential for violating child labor laws, the inefficiency and danger to the child and other employees of having children around this equipment and materials ... it's just a nonstarter, even on a volunteer basis.
So, just the barest recitation of what you saw suggests a high likelihood of exploitation, embezzlement, and potential for injury to the children.
This is not a kid riding along in the passenger seat with Daddy who has a paper route. These are kids working around dangerous equipment and materials, doing what is decidedly NOT work for kids, probably against company regulation, against federal law, and very possibly some form of embezzlement and misappropriation of materials that are, by contract, the property of whatever recycling agency or company this truck is part of.
My first step, if I were you, would be to contact Child Protective Services, which almost has a hotline for reports of possible child abuse and neglect. Your state department of labor also probably has a hotline for violations of labor laws. Finally, depending on the size of the recycling company (the bigger, the more likely I think they are to take this seriously), you may want to contact the company itself.
But yeah, you really need to do something. If there's absolutely nothing wrong with what is going on, then nothing will happen. But people should not appoint themselves the sole arbiters of whether something is okay or not; this is what we have government for. You definitely shouldn't mosy up to the kids and do an investigation on your own. It's not your job, not something you are trained or equipped to do, nor is the legality or okayness of this activity something you should be deciding (evidenced by your need to ask this question).
posted by jayder at 7:06 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Several thoughts about this:
(1) It is extremely unlikely that a recycling operation WITH A GARBAGE TRUCK is going to be a "family operation" that is so casually run that they have children working for them. So right from the jump, this strikes me as an extremely shady "skimming" operation where, quite likely, an employee of the company is siphoning off "valuable" recyclables to line his or her own pockets and that stuff isn't making it into the recycling facility through the normal stream of collected materials. Thus, it is at least very plausible that you are witnessing not only exploitation of children, but embezzlement.
(2) I don't think working on and around garbage trucks and sorting potentially dangerous recyclable materials is a field in which it would EVER be legal to have children aged 8 or 10 working. Even the average, domestic recycling container in a residential area would very possibly contain materials you would not want children touching, inhaling, or being exposed to. Aside from hazardous materials, there are other hazards (sharp edges presenting cutting hazards, potential for disease and infection, etc.).
(3) Any recycling company is almost certainly going to have rules against children working for them in ANY capacity. The legal liability, the potential for violating child labor laws, the inefficiency and danger to the child and other employees of having children around this equipment and materials ... it's just a nonstarter, even on a volunteer basis.
So, just the barest recitation of what you saw suggests a high likelihood of exploitation, embezzlement, and potential for injury to the children.
This is not a kid riding along in the passenger seat with Daddy who has a paper route. These are kids working around dangerous equipment and materials, doing what is decidedly NOT work for kids, probably against company regulation, against federal law, and very possibly some form of embezzlement and misappropriation of materials that are, by contract, the property of whatever recycling agency or company this truck is part of.
My first step, if I were you, would be to contact Child Protective Services, which almost has a hotline for reports of possible child abuse and neglect. Your state department of labor also probably has a hotline for violations of labor laws. Finally, depending on the size of the recycling company (the bigger, the more likely I think they are to take this seriously), you may want to contact the company itself.
But yeah, you really need to do something. If there's absolutely nothing wrong with what is going on, then nothing will happen. But people should not appoint themselves the sole arbiters of whether something is okay or not; this is what we have government for. You definitely shouldn't mosy up to the kids and do an investigation on your own. It's not your job, not something you are trained or equipped to do, nor is the legality or okayness of this activity something you should be deciding (evidenced by your need to ask this question).
posted by jayder at 7:06 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would not assume the driver is doing anything wrong, and I would not want to see a working class dude lose his job over this. We did this all the time when we would visit my mom when she was living in the South - grab cans from people's trash, the laundromat, etc.
If I were you, and I saw it happening, I would go to the kids, and say, "Hey, would you guys like some gloves? There can be stuff in the recycling that could make you sick." If they said yes, I would get them a couple pairs of dish gloves. If they said no, I would tell them that someone could call the health department and get the truck driver in trouble. This way, you're letting them know why it's bad without risking dude's job or the kids home life (child protective services have taken kids from their families for less). Approach with the aim of helping, rather than punishing.
I bet ten to one that either the kids are trying to make extra money, or they are doing a "cans and bottles" drive for (school or sports team fundraiser, recycling awareness, etc.) and it's either been arranged in a legit way OR the guy is helping out (neighbor kids, niece/nephew, etc) to make pocket money/win a recycling "contest".
posted by SassHat at 11:24 AM on October 15, 2015
If I were you, and I saw it happening, I would go to the kids, and say, "Hey, would you guys like some gloves? There can be stuff in the recycling that could make you sick." If they said yes, I would get them a couple pairs of dish gloves. If they said no, I would tell them that someone could call the health department and get the truck driver in trouble. This way, you're letting them know why it's bad without risking dude's job or the kids home life (child protective services have taken kids from their families for less). Approach with the aim of helping, rather than punishing.
I bet ten to one that either the kids are trying to make extra money, or they are doing a "cans and bottles" drive for (school or sports team fundraiser, recycling awareness, etc.) and it's either been arranged in a legit way OR the guy is helping out (neighbor kids, niece/nephew, etc) to make pocket money/win a recycling "contest".
posted by SassHat at 11:24 AM on October 15, 2015
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posted by BibiRose at 11:12 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]