Is pride necessary for self-esteem?
September 30, 2015 9:29 PM Subscribe
Can a person have healthy self-esteem without feeling proud of their accomplishments?
I'm in therapy and working on my self-esteem. I don't fully understand the concept of good self-esteem or what it means to have confidence. I don't feel pride in my accomplishments. I have a tough time selling myself and my skills to other people. I have a hard time saying I'm good at anything, but I also won't say that I suck at things I know how to do. I don't hate what I've done or who I am, but I really don't think I've done anything special with my life. I'd characterize my output as adequate but generally unremarkable. I feel pretty confident in myself in that I don't think I'll know how good I'll be at something until I try it. Does this mean I have low self-esteem and unrealistically high standards, or does it mean that I have a realistic worldview?
I'm in therapy and working on my self-esteem. I don't fully understand the concept of good self-esteem or what it means to have confidence. I don't feel pride in my accomplishments. I have a tough time selling myself and my skills to other people. I have a hard time saying I'm good at anything, but I also won't say that I suck at things I know how to do. I don't hate what I've done or who I am, but I really don't think I've done anything special with my life. I'd characterize my output as adequate but generally unremarkable. I feel pretty confident in myself in that I don't think I'll know how good I'll be at something until I try it. Does this mean I have low self-esteem and unrealistically high standards, or does it mean that I have a realistic worldview?
The short answer is yes, because, as John Wooden put it, success is the peace of mind you get from knowing you did your best to become the best you are capable of becoming. It's not about feeling prideful or winning or doing anything specific. It's about being able to feel good when you look back because you know you put in the work.
The long answer is, realize you're looking at yourself right now with a flawed lens. Others might look at you and wonder why you're not proud of your accomplishments. Continued therapy will help you here.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:51 PM on September 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
The long answer is, realize you're looking at yourself right now with a flawed lens. Others might look at you and wonder why you're not proud of your accomplishments. Continued therapy will help you here.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:51 PM on September 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think so, for some definitions of "proud." I started feeling much better about myself when I stopped trying to find ways in which I was special, because as I see it now, you can't really build a society on the idea that everyone is going to find a way to stand out from among 300 million people. Living up to your purpose in life doesn't necessarily involve being special to a group that couldn't squeeze into your living room.
You sound more realistic than low to me, but I guess I don't know what your goals are, if you have them—is self-esteem a tangential part of your therapy, or have you identified it as a specific problem that you're looking to address? Selling yourself to other people, to use the example you gave, is really hard even if you're proud of what you do; maybe it would help to think of it as knowing the ways in which you might help other people accomplish whatever it is they're trying to do.
Long-winded analogy that was useful for me: Before radio and television broadcasts, what seems in hindsight to be nearly every town in America had a baseball team. People would go to the local park and pay genuine US dollars to watch them play, because those guys—who were semipro at best, guys with regular jobs and families—were the best baseball players in town, and they could compete with the best baseball players in other towns.
This kind of independent minor league baseball all but vanished once people could watch the best baseball players on earth—players who in many cases have trained since they were children with the single goal of being a great baseball player—on TV. (Not to mention all the other entertaining things they could watch on TV.) Those regionally talented baseball players still exist—some of them are in college, some of them are in the minors, some of them probably quit out of high school—but no matter what most of them do, they won't be one of the best 750 baseball players on earth. It feels, to me, like this is the case everywhere mass culture touches—i.e. the death of the midlist author, or the way local theater/business/dining has transformed from being something you patronize because what else are you going to do to something that frequently must be "supported" for its own sake.
For all but the last 150 years of human history a guy who was the whatever-your-skill-is equivalent of a .200 hitter in the major leagues could go his entire life without running into somebody who was clearly much better than he was. Now it is impossible not to do that—we surface the 99th percentile in every field and we put them on TV. The world is set up to constantly show us the very, very best people in the world at what we do.
But that shouldn't prevent us from looking for niches—a family, a town, a subreddit, whatever—where we can do good work, and feeling a sense of accomplishment that stops short of world-beating everybody-look-at-me pride. A realistic understanding of the scope of my life has been a real help to me, and also extremely difficult to find and accept.
posted by Polycarp at 9:58 PM on September 30, 2015 [62 favorites]
You sound more realistic than low to me, but I guess I don't know what your goals are, if you have them—is self-esteem a tangential part of your therapy, or have you identified it as a specific problem that you're looking to address? Selling yourself to other people, to use the example you gave, is really hard even if you're proud of what you do; maybe it would help to think of it as knowing the ways in which you might help other people accomplish whatever it is they're trying to do.
Long-winded analogy that was useful for me: Before radio and television broadcasts, what seems in hindsight to be nearly every town in America had a baseball team. People would go to the local park and pay genuine US dollars to watch them play, because those guys—who were semipro at best, guys with regular jobs and families—were the best baseball players in town, and they could compete with the best baseball players in other towns.
This kind of independent minor league baseball all but vanished once people could watch the best baseball players on earth—players who in many cases have trained since they were children with the single goal of being a great baseball player—on TV. (Not to mention all the other entertaining things they could watch on TV.) Those regionally talented baseball players still exist—some of them are in college, some of them are in the minors, some of them probably quit out of high school—but no matter what most of them do, they won't be one of the best 750 baseball players on earth. It feels, to me, like this is the case everywhere mass culture touches—i.e. the death of the midlist author, or the way local theater/business/dining has transformed from being something you patronize because what else are you going to do to something that frequently must be "supported" for its own sake.
For all but the last 150 years of human history a guy who was the whatever-your-skill-is equivalent of a .200 hitter in the major leagues could go his entire life without running into somebody who was clearly much better than he was. Now it is impossible not to do that—we surface the 99th percentile in every field and we put them on TV. The world is set up to constantly show us the very, very best people in the world at what we do.
But that shouldn't prevent us from looking for niches—a family, a town, a subreddit, whatever—where we can do good work, and feeling a sense of accomplishment that stops short of world-beating everybody-look-at-me pride. A realistic understanding of the scope of my life has been a real help to me, and also extremely difficult to find and accept.
posted by Polycarp at 9:58 PM on September 30, 2015 [62 favorites]
It's possible to be proud of something you've done, or made, without being objectively the best at that thing. I can be proud of the bookshelves I've built knowing that an actual carpenter would've done a better job faster, because I'm not a professional carpenter.
It's possible to be confident in yourself without measuring yourself against others. Being happy and comfortable with who you are, being content that you are who you are meant to be, can look to the outside world like pride in abilities, or excellence, or exceptionalism.
It's also nice to be really good at something. But that's not where self-esteem comes from.
posted by danny the boy at 10:50 PM on September 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's possible to be confident in yourself without measuring yourself against others. Being happy and comfortable with who you are, being content that you are who you are meant to be, can look to the outside world like pride in abilities, or excellence, or exceptionalism.
It's also nice to be really good at something. But that's not where self-esteem comes from.
posted by danny the boy at 10:50 PM on September 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think it's actually quite a bad idea to make your self-esteem - your valuation of yourself - contingent on some specific achievement or quality or Thing You Do That No One Else Can (As Well). Believing that your worth is contingent on something like that leaves open the possibility that your sense of self-worth will be continuously and erratically shifting, depending on random factors like praise or criticism or the apparent brilliance of other people. I think healthy self-esteem is actually the opposite of this, where you think that it is basically good that you exist, as you now are - in the same way that loving parents are just pleased that their child exists and is herself, regardless of any school prizes or whether the kid next door has shinier hair. This baseline cheerfulness about yourself makes life more stable and happier, I think: it means it's fine to feel good about some good thing you did, or self-critical about something you could have done better, because the value of your whole existence is not at stake regardless of whether you did well or badly.
posted by Aravis76 at 11:26 PM on September 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by Aravis76 at 11:26 PM on September 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
I'm super-duper religious, and pride as a sin is a concept I struggled/struggle with because I can do some things pretty well, and I couldn't see how that was wrong - the prayer line "to God be the glory" vexed me because I did the work, why does God get the glory? after all, which was echoing what was happening a lot in my life where I was working without compensation so the little scraps of praise or recognition I did get were very precious.
I found replacing pride with words like delight or joy made as much logical sense, and I began to see that I had done things not in isolation, but through a whole chain of events and people. Then when things failed - when I failed - I could also see that it wasn't just me. I wasn't solely responsible or all-powerful. Pride is a sort of stab at control - at saying I choose what is of value, what is worthwhile.
I'm proud of you. I take pride in my work. Be proud of that.
OR
I think you're wonderful. I love your work. I saw how beautiful that was. You delight me.
Pride is a judgement and not a vulnerable emotion. You don't need it to see that what you have done is good or recognise your work or yourself as a good thing.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:31 PM on September 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
I found replacing pride with words like delight or joy made as much logical sense, and I began to see that I had done things not in isolation, but through a whole chain of events and people. Then when things failed - when I failed - I could also see that it wasn't just me. I wasn't solely responsible or all-powerful. Pride is a sort of stab at control - at saying I choose what is of value, what is worthwhile.
I'm proud of you. I take pride in my work. Be proud of that.
OR
I think you're wonderful. I love your work. I saw how beautiful that was. You delight me.
Pride is a judgement and not a vulnerable emotion. You don't need it to see that what you have done is good or recognise your work or yourself as a good thing.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:31 PM on September 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
In Buddhism my teacher talked about confidence and self-esteem being related to effort. Knowing that with effort we can accomplish our goals and knowing that we have the potential to choose positive, beneficial actions leads to healthy self-esteem. Pride in the traditional sense does not factor in, since pride would be ego. In the same vein, pride about the outcome isn't present either, since Buddhism is process-oriented (how you do things) rather than goal oriented. It is more important to do things the right way than to have the exact desired result; furthermore (ultimately) the best results come from employing the right method. Therefore focus on perfecting the method - applying effort with a positive mind. Then que sera, sera!
So self-esteem and confidence would be like having trust that your efforts will be fruitful, without being attached to the result. Yes that is a paradox. It is also feeling good about the effort applied. So while you may not feel particularly boastful about your work, are you feeling good about the effort that went into it? By extension you would feel good about your capability (potential) to do good things, though it wouldn't add to your ego in any way. In this way you feel good about yourself (your capability) without feeing prideful about your "self" (ego). Yes that is splitting hairs.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:48 PM on September 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
So self-esteem and confidence would be like having trust that your efforts will be fruitful, without being attached to the result. Yes that is a paradox. It is also feeling good about the effort applied. So while you may not feel particularly boastful about your work, are you feeling good about the effort that went into it? By extension you would feel good about your capability (potential) to do good things, though it wouldn't add to your ego in any way. In this way you feel good about yourself (your capability) without feeing prideful about your "self" (ego). Yes that is splitting hairs.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:48 PM on September 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Realistic worldview.
The people who struggle most are those who have high self-esteem and low self-confidence, because the lack of confidence means they'll never validate their own perceived self-worth through any external accomplishment. These are the unhappiest people I know.
The luckiest people are those who have low or moderate self esteem and high confidence, because they are likely to exceed their own expectations of themselves.
It's like growing up in a poor neighborhood and working your way to a middle class one brings a lot more happiness than the other way around.
posted by three blind mice at 12:50 AM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
The people who struggle most are those who have high self-esteem and low self-confidence, because the lack of confidence means they'll never validate their own perceived self-worth through any external accomplishment. These are the unhappiest people I know.
The luckiest people are those who have low or moderate self esteem and high confidence, because they are likely to exceed their own expectations of themselves.
It's like growing up in a poor neighborhood and working your way to a middle class one brings a lot more happiness than the other way around.
posted by three blind mice at 12:50 AM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
You sound like a reasonable person with a good sense of perspective. You don't have to do something special with your life to prove you exist, though you might like to, in which case of course you should go for it.
I'm sure if there were something special you really wanted to do, and you ran the numbers and found that it was possible, well then you could make a realistic plan for achieving all or most of it, because you have a good handle on reality like that.
Honestly I think self-esteem and confidence are a trap. WTF even is confidence - of course you can't know how well you'll do something until you try. How could you possibly know that?
As for self-esteem, if you think you're a better person when you do something really well, it follows that you have to think less of yourself when you screw up. You can strive to do the best you can, and strive to avoid screwups, without playing the exhausting and unwinnable game of self-esteem.
posted by tel3path at 2:00 AM on October 1, 2015
I'm sure if there were something special you really wanted to do, and you ran the numbers and found that it was possible, well then you could make a realistic plan for achieving all or most of it, because you have a good handle on reality like that.
Honestly I think self-esteem and confidence are a trap. WTF even is confidence - of course you can't know how well you'll do something until you try. How could you possibly know that?
As for self-esteem, if you think you're a better person when you do something really well, it follows that you have to think less of yourself when you screw up. You can strive to do the best you can, and strive to avoid screwups, without playing the exhausting and unwinnable game of self-esteem.
posted by tel3path at 2:00 AM on October 1, 2015
You really cannot wrap your mind around a number like 7 billion people, and yet people expect themselves to be "the best!" at something. As Polycarp alludes to above, many of these attitudes worked in small towns with limited communication, but they don't work in a modern society where the best of the best are paraded in front of us continuously.
OTOH, being "just adequate" is excellent when you consider how many people have terrible addictions, personality disorders, or are so lacking in empathy that they literally don't give a shit about the future of the earth. You sound reasonable to me.
posted by benzenedream at 2:31 AM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
OTOH, being "just adequate" is excellent when you consider how many people have terrible addictions, personality disorders, or are so lacking in empathy that they literally don't give a shit about the future of the earth. You sound reasonable to me.
posted by benzenedream at 2:31 AM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
The good in the world is made with the modest but awe inspiring efforts of millions upon millions of people. Being a small part of that good is my principal source of pride.
posted by Mistress at 2:32 AM on October 1, 2015
posted by Mistress at 2:32 AM on October 1, 2015
self esteem is how much you "value" yourself.
that value can come from pride of something (i am good because i did so and so). but it can also come from other sources.
it's maybe easier to see this if you think of someone else. you can value someone else even if they've not done anything that you are particularly proud of. you probably value your parents, even if they're not the best at anything in particular, for example. similarly, you can love yourself without needing to think that it's for any particular reason.
posted by andrewcooke at 2:41 AM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
that value can come from pride of something (i am good because i did so and so). but it can also come from other sources.
it's maybe easier to see this if you think of someone else. you can value someone else even if they've not done anything that you are particularly proud of. you probably value your parents, even if they're not the best at anything in particular, for example. similarly, you can love yourself without needing to think that it's for any particular reason.
posted by andrewcooke at 2:41 AM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
My self-esteem is tied up with how much I try, not how much I accomplish. It may be that I play the long game because I'm a teacher. I know that I'm probably not ever going to know what I've accomplished with my kids. They grow up and go on to do whatever is they do. I never know if my effort affected them in any real way.
But I'm able to find personal value in knowing that pretty much every single day, I'm trying really hard. I never really know if I've accomplished anything just because kids never thank teachers for their efforts.
posted by kinetic at 3:15 AM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
But I'm able to find personal value in knowing that pretty much every single day, I'm trying really hard. I never really know if I've accomplished anything just because kids never thank teachers for their efforts.
posted by kinetic at 3:15 AM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I battled low self-esteem for most of my adolescence and early adulthood. I'm only just feeling okay about who I am now, at age 26, after going through therapy and doing a lot of work on myself. I realised that my parents had a lot to do with my poor self-esteem, as they never really saw me for who I was as a person. I was only regarded for my accomplishments, and love felt entirely conditional on a whole bunch of arbitrary things.
Even when I graduated from university and got a job in my field and had everything going for me, no amount of external praise or attention would make me feel good. I wondered why I felt so shitty about myself when I was considered smart, successful, pretty, funny, a good friend/girlfriend and kind to others. Turns out I had a lot of unhelpful beliefs, and I was being very unkind to myself. Heck, I didn't even think I had low self esteem, because I'm not the sort to outwardly put myself down; I wasn't acknowledging that I had internalised all this negativity. It just seemed normal to minimise everything and to be hard on myself.
I think this podcast episode will be useful. Guy Winch talks about how self-esteem is like your emotional armour through life, and that you should want to strengthen that armour rather than 'poking holes in it'.
He also discusses the fear of seeming arrogant, which is what I think a lot of people experience when they're hesitant to acknowledge the good in themselves.
posted by sweetshine at 3:19 AM on October 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
Even when I graduated from university and got a job in my field and had everything going for me, no amount of external praise or attention would make me feel good. I wondered why I felt so shitty about myself when I was considered smart, successful, pretty, funny, a good friend/girlfriend and kind to others. Turns out I had a lot of unhelpful beliefs, and I was being very unkind to myself. Heck, I didn't even think I had low self esteem, because I'm not the sort to outwardly put myself down; I wasn't acknowledging that I had internalised all this negativity. It just seemed normal to minimise everything and to be hard on myself.
I think this podcast episode will be useful. Guy Winch talks about how self-esteem is like your emotional armour through life, and that you should want to strengthen that armour rather than 'poking holes in it'.
He also discusses the fear of seeming arrogant, which is what I think a lot of people experience when they're hesitant to acknowledge the good in themselves.
posted by sweetshine at 3:19 AM on October 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
I asked this relevant question and got some good responses.
posted by deathpanels at 4:27 AM on October 1, 2015
posted by deathpanels at 4:27 AM on October 1, 2015
The people that I have met with the most pride have been the ones with the lowest self esteem. Only someone with healthy self esteem can be humble, which is what you seem to be.
posted by myselfasme at 5:24 AM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by myselfasme at 5:24 AM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oddly, I think that one of the things that has helped my self-esteem the most as I've grown older is the completely external matter of realizing how full of shit everyone else is most of the time, something that doesn't directly have anything to do with my own self.
I spend a great deal of time thinking about what I should do and how I should behave and how I should be, and for the most part I've assumed that other people who have led more normal-seeming lives than me have carried out the same thought process but have been more diligent about doing what they "should" do.
But it's not so at all: most people are performing any given task far from optimally in any objective sense, and many of them can be quite deceptive about putting up a facade of superiority and a facade of having their shit together while trying to convince you that you're inadequate somehow. And many hold others to standards that they woefully fail to meet themselves.
Problems of self-esteem can be caused by the fact that you have something like an omnipotent knowing-the-deepest-heart God's-eye view of yourself, but you only have the public personas of others to compare that view with; personas that are often essentially the Facebook versions of themselves, with an extreme bias towards presenting only positive or at worst neutral impressions.
So that aspect of achieving self-esteem, realistically appraising oneself in comparison to others, does not rely on pride. Maybe you aren't a saint or a superman/superwoman, but neither is anyone else.
posted by XMLicious at 5:36 AM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I spend a great deal of time thinking about what I should do and how I should behave and how I should be, and for the most part I've assumed that other people who have led more normal-seeming lives than me have carried out the same thought process but have been more diligent about doing what they "should" do.
But it's not so at all: most people are performing any given task far from optimally in any objective sense, and many of them can be quite deceptive about putting up a facade of superiority and a facade of having their shit together while trying to convince you that you're inadequate somehow. And many hold others to standards that they woefully fail to meet themselves.
Problems of self-esteem can be caused by the fact that you have something like an omnipotent knowing-the-deepest-heart God's-eye view of yourself, but you only have the public personas of others to compare that view with; personas that are often essentially the Facebook versions of themselves, with an extreme bias towards presenting only positive or at worst neutral impressions.
So that aspect of achieving self-esteem, realistically appraising oneself in comparison to others, does not rely on pride. Maybe you aren't a saint or a superman/superwoman, but neither is anyone else.
posted by XMLicious at 5:36 AM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
(One other note: I work in software too, as you do according to your other AskMes, and a major part of the above revelation has been finding out what a completely half-assed job my co-workers and the engineers I've met at customer sites are usually doing. Albeit, in many cases they're doing a half-assed job because of mismanagement or poor scheduling.)
posted by XMLicious at 5:46 AM on October 1, 2015
posted by XMLicious at 5:46 AM on October 1, 2015
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posted by Blitz at 9:51 PM on September 30, 2015 [1 favorite]