My Boyfriend is a Divorcing Dad: What is Appropriate?
September 26, 2015 5:16 PM Subscribe
I've never dated a dad before -- and now have a boyfriend with two children whose divorce isn't final. They are a very "low boundaries" family and I'm having a hard time dealing with what is said, discussed in front of his children...
Full Situational Context - First Things First:
I'm 37 and have already read about and discussed with family, friends and a therapist the wisdom of dating a man who's technically still married and for several reasons I feel good about dating my boyfriend before his divorce is final (resolution pending sometime in February) .
I have never even dated a "ex-married" man before, let alone a father, so the complications that go along with are confusingly hitting me at once.
My boyfriend and I are in agreement that this relationship is very serious and even though we haven't technically used the "M-word" he's openly stated he wants to be "my final relationship", he wants me to be part of his family and wants to be my family, etc.
I'm also more than happy that he has children--a boy (8, also autistic--if that has any conceivable bearing) and a girl (6 years of age). I haven't decided I don't want kids of my own, but I'm at an age where it doesn't sound bad to accommodate, spend time with and try to help support his children instead of having any of my own.
He has an amicable relationship with his wife, who lives with their two children in their/his house except for every other weekend, when he lives in the home and she goes somewhere else.
He would like for me to meet his kids now (and his wife -- we both want to meet, as well -- and she doesn't seem to question the wisdom of meeting the kids yet -- she has them meet her boyfriends, which seem likely to be short-term), but I question the wisdom of doing so already. Internet articles about "when should kids meet a parents should meet the new dating partners" are all over the place, but he agrees probably his kids wouldn't gain anything by us meeting yet, so he's decided to put that off.
While he spends time with his kids his cell phone gets passed back and forth and he has phone conversations with them around, even in the midst of conversations with innuendo (probably nothing that kids can decipher, but I think kids still know when innuendo is being used and that is means "something adult is being discussed") and I've told him I don't feel comfortable with this -- neither he nor I neither think it's a problem, in general, for kids to hear sexual things, my concern is about their feelings about their father's "girlfriend" and how much all of this--even knowing he has a girlfriend--feels to them.
His daughter has her own cell phone that she plays with (I guess?) and he has sometimes texted me on it -- and she has also started texting me -- little pictures and icons and she has also called me to have brief phone conversations ("We're watching Futurama!"). She has also called me during work and many times I haven't picked up, but Friday I decided to pick up and we spoke briefly about her new backpack and knock-knock jokes, and then I discovered her mom was listening over speakerphone and she then told Daniel that I seem nice and she approves of me, etc.
All of this is confusing to me -- this is WAY different than my family operated. In a way, I like that there aren't "secrets" and so-forth, my family was much more compartmentalized, but it's not like that made me feel warm and protected. On the contrary, he and his wife seem to spend more time/energy with their kids than my parents did with theirs...so I'm really at a loss as to what "stance" if any, seems appropriate.
I mostly don't think innuendo should be discussed within earshot and, if on a phone -- it shouldn't be a phone that his kids have access to. He said he's fine with keeping his cell phone strictly to himself, but this also makes me sad. Why should his daughter not be able to reach in his pocket and play with his cell phone like she usually does? She has her own, fine, but the point is I know kids are smart enough to figure out this has something to do with his girlfriend.
His kids seemingly don't pay attention to his phone conversations with me when he's with them -- but I know if I were a kid and my home (read: center of stability and identity) had just been turned upside down, it would certainly be paying way more attention to what I seemed to be.
I'm sure everyone has different ideas about what is appropriate, so I am mostly looking for advice that resonates with me...a kind of logic that I can say "a-ha! that's a good rule of thumb".
Thank you so much!
Full Situational Context - First Things First:
I'm 37 and have already read about and discussed with family, friends and a therapist the wisdom of dating a man who's technically still married and for several reasons I feel good about dating my boyfriend before his divorce is final (resolution pending sometime in February) .
I have never even dated a "ex-married" man before, let alone a father, so the complications that go along with are confusingly hitting me at once.
My boyfriend and I are in agreement that this relationship is very serious and even though we haven't technically used the "M-word" he's openly stated he wants to be "my final relationship", he wants me to be part of his family and wants to be my family, etc.
I'm also more than happy that he has children--a boy (8, also autistic--if that has any conceivable bearing) and a girl (6 years of age). I haven't decided I don't want kids of my own, but I'm at an age where it doesn't sound bad to accommodate, spend time with and try to help support his children instead of having any of my own.
He has an amicable relationship with his wife, who lives with their two children in their/his house except for every other weekend, when he lives in the home and she goes somewhere else.
He would like for me to meet his kids now (and his wife -- we both want to meet, as well -- and she doesn't seem to question the wisdom of meeting the kids yet -- she has them meet her boyfriends, which seem likely to be short-term), but I question the wisdom of doing so already. Internet articles about "when should kids meet a parents should meet the new dating partners" are all over the place, but he agrees probably his kids wouldn't gain anything by us meeting yet, so he's decided to put that off.
While he spends time with his kids his cell phone gets passed back and forth and he has phone conversations with them around, even in the midst of conversations with innuendo (probably nothing that kids can decipher, but I think kids still know when innuendo is being used and that is means "something adult is being discussed") and I've told him I don't feel comfortable with this -- neither he nor I neither think it's a problem, in general, for kids to hear sexual things, my concern is about their feelings about their father's "girlfriend" and how much all of this--even knowing he has a girlfriend--feels to them.
His daughter has her own cell phone that she plays with (I guess?) and he has sometimes texted me on it -- and she has also started texting me -- little pictures and icons and she has also called me to have brief phone conversations ("We're watching Futurama!"). She has also called me during work and many times I haven't picked up, but Friday I decided to pick up and we spoke briefly about her new backpack and knock-knock jokes, and then I discovered her mom was listening over speakerphone and she then told Daniel that I seem nice and she approves of me, etc.
All of this is confusing to me -- this is WAY different than my family operated. In a way, I like that there aren't "secrets" and so-forth, my family was much more compartmentalized, but it's not like that made me feel warm and protected. On the contrary, he and his wife seem to spend more time/energy with their kids than my parents did with theirs...so I'm really at a loss as to what "stance" if any, seems appropriate.
I mostly don't think innuendo should be discussed within earshot and, if on a phone -- it shouldn't be a phone that his kids have access to. He said he's fine with keeping his cell phone strictly to himself, but this also makes me sad. Why should his daughter not be able to reach in his pocket and play with his cell phone like she usually does? She has her own, fine, but the point is I know kids are smart enough to figure out this has something to do with his girlfriend.
His kids seemingly don't pay attention to his phone conversations with me when he's with them -- but I know if I were a kid and my home (read: center of stability and identity) had just been turned upside down, it would certainly be paying way more attention to what I seemed to be.
I'm sure everyone has different ideas about what is appropriate, so I am mostly looking for advice that resonates with me...a kind of logic that I can say "a-ha! that's a good rule of thumb".
Thank you so much!
This seems problematic. You have high boundaries. In some way your squeeze has low boundaries. He's ignoring your request for more boundaries. This merits a serious conversation as the very least. This would be a huge relationship red flag for me.
posted by Kalmya at 5:49 PM on September 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Kalmya at 5:49 PM on September 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think the rule of thumb should be "when he's with his kids, texts/calls are short and sweet, e.g. no sexy-times innuendo". I think the 6 year old calling is a bit odd too, maybe suggest a time you and her can have a chat each week (e.g. Thursdays at 7 p.m.) and limit it that way.
I don't think kids that young should be hearing sex talk, especially not from their dad, I know kids are exposed to lots of things from youtube and movies and other kids but I don't think parents should be adding to it explicitly.
posted by lafemma at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think kids that young should be hearing sex talk, especially not from their dad, I know kids are exposed to lots of things from youtube and movies and other kids but I don't think parents should be adding to it explicitly.
posted by lafemma at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The sex stuff is definitely a red flag. But so is letting a six-year-old text and call random adults during work hours--bad if she's doing that unsupervised but actually even worse if an adult is there and sanctioning it. My niece is ten, and it's still her parents who call me (on their phone) and then put her on to chat.
posted by whitewall at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by whitewall at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why should his daughter not be able to reach in his pocket and play with his cell phone like she usually does?
Aside from that being hopefully unintentionally weird phrasing, because things belong to people and phones are now pretty intimate extensions of people's lives that should be respected. She's old enough to read, which is the point at which daddy's phone is daddy's property and daddy should pick up a cheap tablet for her to use for screen time now.
(And not have children's hands in his pockets in the presence of innuendo.)
Look, you don't get to tell this guy how to parent, but you do get to dictate the boundaries of your relationship with his children (particularly when your boundaries are the more conservative - he shouldn't be forcing you to be more intimate with his children than you are comfortable with, for god's sake). Unfortunately, if he won't respect that, that means your options are: a) put up with it, b) leave.
I'd have noped straight out at the point where mommy said "why don't you call daddy's girlfriend and put her on speakerphone and don't tell her I'm listening?" but at the very least, having unsupervised unrestricted phone and text access to a six-year-old child you've never met seems like a great way to eventually end up having a really uncomfortable conversation with CPS or the police.
If you were uncomfortable with the way this man earned money, or how he practiced a religion, or how he behaved with alcohol or drugs, you'd break up with him, right? Parenting is the same deal. If the way he does it doesn't work for you or makes you uncomfortable, accept that this is just not a compatible situation for your life/values.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Aside from that being hopefully unintentionally weird phrasing, because things belong to people and phones are now pretty intimate extensions of people's lives that should be respected. She's old enough to read, which is the point at which daddy's phone is daddy's property and daddy should pick up a cheap tablet for her to use for screen time now.
(And not have children's hands in his pockets in the presence of innuendo.)
Look, you don't get to tell this guy how to parent, but you do get to dictate the boundaries of your relationship with his children (particularly when your boundaries are the more conservative - he shouldn't be forcing you to be more intimate with his children than you are comfortable with, for god's sake). Unfortunately, if he won't respect that, that means your options are: a) put up with it, b) leave.
I'd have noped straight out at the point where mommy said "why don't you call daddy's girlfriend and put her on speakerphone and don't tell her I'm listening?" but at the very least, having unsupervised unrestricted phone and text access to a six-year-old child you've never met seems like a great way to eventually end up having a really uncomfortable conversation with CPS or the police.
If you were uncomfortable with the way this man earned money, or how he practiced a religion, or how he behaved with alcohol or drugs, you'd break up with him, right? Parenting is the same deal. If the way he does it doesn't work for you or makes you uncomfortable, accept that this is just not a compatible situation for your life/values.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
A general observation on Internet discussion of boundaries where kids and dating are concerned: the people who believe in more boundaries may be overrepresented because (a) they're the only ones who think there's some sort of moral violation going on when parents' relationships aren't tightly compartmentalized, and (b) people who disagree may be afraid to say so for fear of being judged quite harshly. It's easy to be wrong about how other families live and how weird any particular practice is--we just don't observe the details of parenting much outside our own families!
For example, I suspect no one will argue based on personal experience with the "thick black line" above because, well, who really wants to be that guy--but I also suspect it's not at all universal among reasonable, intelligent, thoughtful, caring parents who are doing no harm to their children. The edge case that's probably least contentious to mention is that parents often don't care about 'privacy' from newborns, but the variation in attitudes goes much deeper--some parents consider it healthy for their children to know that they're very much in love and to see them kiss passionately on occasion, others think that's absolutely inappropriate in the way it would be on a crowded subway car. (For the record, I shield my kid from any sort of parental sex stuff by not having any sexual thoughts at home ever. Of course.)
So if you have a thoughtful conversation with your boyfriend and, although he's willing to stop the innuendo to make you more comfortable, he doesn't agree that it's actually a problem for the kids--hear him out and consider it co-parenting practice!
posted by cogitron at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
For example, I suspect no one will argue based on personal experience with the "thick black line" above because, well, who really wants to be that guy--but I also suspect it's not at all universal among reasonable, intelligent, thoughtful, caring parents who are doing no harm to their children. The edge case that's probably least contentious to mention is that parents often don't care about 'privacy' from newborns, but the variation in attitudes goes much deeper--some parents consider it healthy for their children to know that they're very much in love and to see them kiss passionately on occasion, others think that's absolutely inappropriate in the way it would be on a crowded subway car. (For the record, I shield my kid from any sort of parental sex stuff by not having any sexual thoughts at home ever. Of course.)
So if you have a thoughtful conversation with your boyfriend and, although he's willing to stop the innuendo to make you more comfortable, he doesn't agree that it's actually a problem for the kids--hear him out and consider it co-parenting practice!
posted by cogitron at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [11 favorites]
I see so many weird red flags here.
1) Why does a 6 year old have (presumably) free access to a working cell phone (possibly of their own?) and is calling and texting people who are basically strangers? I know you said mom was listening on one call, but would mom really approve her 6 year old to call you during work hours? I also find it weird that the 6 year old called you but mom didn't say "Hey, daughter wants to talk to you here she is." and instead just listened in the background.
2) Why are the parents not having an open and on-the-same-page discussion about when and how to introduce partners? It seems like the rules are different for him versus her. She has introduced boyfriends but you aren't introduced as girlfriend yet. I think it's something that everyone should be able to discuss among the adults for what's best for the kids, and it doesn't seem like that's happening.
3) Sexual innuendos in front of kids to a person they're not close with is super weird to me. It's one thing I think to show affection and attraction to a partner as it can model good relationships for kids. BUT they aren't even divorced yet and you aren't introduced as girlfriend yet and I think that's confusing for kids, let alone it sounds like the innuendo you're referring to is a MUCH more sexual level than just basic affection. It definitely concerns me that he won't cut it out when you asked him to stop.
posted by Crystalinne at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
1) Why does a 6 year old have (presumably) free access to a working cell phone (possibly of their own?) and is calling and texting people who are basically strangers? I know you said mom was listening on one call, but would mom really approve her 6 year old to call you during work hours? I also find it weird that the 6 year old called you but mom didn't say "Hey, daughter wants to talk to you here she is." and instead just listened in the background.
2) Why are the parents not having an open and on-the-same-page discussion about when and how to introduce partners? It seems like the rules are different for him versus her. She has introduced boyfriends but you aren't introduced as girlfriend yet. I think it's something that everyone should be able to discuss among the adults for what's best for the kids, and it doesn't seem like that's happening.
3) Sexual innuendos in front of kids to a person they're not close with is super weird to me. It's one thing I think to show affection and attraction to a partner as it can model good relationships for kids. BUT they aren't even divorced yet and you aren't introduced as girlfriend yet and I think that's confusing for kids, let alone it sounds like the innuendo you're referring to is a MUCH more sexual level than just basic affection. It definitely concerns me that he won't cut it out when you asked him to stop.
posted by Crystalinne at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Nothing in your question strikes me as deeply disturbing or wrong, EXCEPT sexual innuendos that the children can read/see. The rest of it strikes me as totally normal (and not like, damaging or traumatizing to anyone) as someone from a low-boundaries family.
This doesn't mean you have to feel OK with it, I'm just saying that there's not necessarily anything objectively horrible going on here. Since it seems that's what you're actually asking.
A rule of thumb, maybe-- sexual things involving daddy are not OK. When I think back to my low-boundaries childhood, the only thing that really squicks me out is the time I saw my step-dad basically naked because he didn't cover up when he went to sleep and I had to go through his bedroom to reach the only bathroom in the morning. I'd imagine any other sexual content is off-limits to the child psyche. The rest sounds fine to me.
(It's sweet that his daughter wants to call you, and also totally fine to say, "I'm sorry I couldn't pick up, I was at work! What did you want to talk about?" next time you see her. If the calling is distracting you or bothering you then you can ask the boyfriend to communicate to his daughter kindly that work time is a time to be focused and you can't take calls then.) The mom "listening in" is a little jarring, but it doesn't seem like she purposely sneak-listened and she also seems like it was totally benevolent so I wouldn't have a huge problem with it.
posted by easter queen at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
This doesn't mean you have to feel OK with it, I'm just saying that there's not necessarily anything objectively horrible going on here. Since it seems that's what you're actually asking.
A rule of thumb, maybe-- sexual things involving daddy are not OK. When I think back to my low-boundaries childhood, the only thing that really squicks me out is the time I saw my step-dad basically naked because he didn't cover up when he went to sleep and I had to go through his bedroom to reach the only bathroom in the morning. I'd imagine any other sexual content is off-limits to the child psyche. The rest sounds fine to me.
(It's sweet that his daughter wants to call you, and also totally fine to say, "I'm sorry I couldn't pick up, I was at work! What did you want to talk about?" next time you see her. If the calling is distracting you or bothering you then you can ask the boyfriend to communicate to his daughter kindly that work time is a time to be focused and you can't take calls then.) The mom "listening in" is a little jarring, but it doesn't seem like she purposely sneak-listened and she also seems like it was totally benevolent so I wouldn't have a huge problem with it.
posted by easter queen at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
i have never been divorced and have no kids, so maybe i should shut up already, but i was thinking how nice it all sounded, with the kids apparently happy and relaxed despite the divorce, and the girl sending you cute messages and wanting to be friends with daddy's new friend. i don't think i know a divorced couple where the kids sound that happy.
posted by andrewcooke at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by andrewcooke at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
Another thought: as a parent, the kid's age can kind of sneak up on you. Things only become inappropriate verrrrry slowly and sometimes an outside perspective is helpful in realizing changes that need to be made. (Is bedwetting still normal now? Is it rude to laugh at unintentionally-funny things the kiddo says? Do I still need to be zipping up his jacket? Hey, maybe it's time I don't get walked in on when I'm pooping anymore.) I imagine that might go double with the first child being autistic and possibly genuinely less sensitive to social cues--maybe they got used to being able to talk over the kids' heads.
posted by cogitron at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by cogitron at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
I also find it weird that the 6 year old called you but mom didn't say "Hey, daughter wants to talk to you here she is." and instead just listened in the background.
Also, having seen this kind of thing first hand from the other side, maybe Mom was just busy and normally the daughter makes calls with speakerphone on, and she wasn't exactly eavesdropping as much as being like "yes OK call dad's girlfriend, I am listening/supervising, go ahead because I'm folding laundry" or whatever. I mean, you know better than I do, but it could have been totally innocuous open-boundaries stuff.
Also I totally agree with andrewcooke and cogitron-- if you're normally not super buttoned-up and formal, it might just be that the little ones are getting older and you didn't really realize it yet. It sounds rather amiable and nice.
The thing about having the police/CPS knocking on your door because you're texting emojis to a six-year old... that is really, really not my experience with children who borrow their parents phones. I mean, it's possible. But texting a smiley or a picture to your dad's girlfriend actually sounds sweet, and I know a lot of kids who get to use a parents phone on occasion and text other adults that they know, usually just silly stuff (not strangers). Cell phones are just very commonplace and most people think of them as more buckled-down than the Internet-at-large, rightly or wrongly... texting is just a normal form of communication now. People have different boundaries about it re: their children.
posted by easter queen at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, having seen this kind of thing first hand from the other side, maybe Mom was just busy and normally the daughter makes calls with speakerphone on, and she wasn't exactly eavesdropping as much as being like "yes OK call dad's girlfriend, I am listening/supervising, go ahead because I'm folding laundry" or whatever. I mean, you know better than I do, but it could have been totally innocuous open-boundaries stuff.
Also I totally agree with andrewcooke and cogitron-- if you're normally not super buttoned-up and formal, it might just be that the little ones are getting older and you didn't really realize it yet. It sounds rather amiable and nice.
The thing about having the police/CPS knocking on your door because you're texting emojis to a six-year old... that is really, really not my experience with children who borrow their parents phones. I mean, it's possible. But texting a smiley or a picture to your dad's girlfriend actually sounds sweet, and I know a lot of kids who get to use a parents phone on occasion and text other adults that they know, usually just silly stuff (not strangers). Cell phones are just very commonplace and most people think of them as more buckled-down than the Internet-at-large, rightly or wrongly... texting is just a normal form of communication now. People have different boundaries about it re: their children.
posted by easter queen at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think it's weird that the parents allow their little kid to text with someone they haven't met yet. I think it's weird that your boyfriend says sexy things to you when his kids are around. I think it's really weird that there are multiple boyfriends of the mother's that the kids have met (will meet). But that's their family life.
What about you? It sounds like you feel like you are not being allowed your privacy. And now you question your own boundaries. It's totally ok to say, "Texting with your daughter doesn't work for me until I meet her, and I'm not ready to meet her yet." "Please don't let anyone else have access to our private conversations/emails/texts."
You sound really into this guy but I'd think carefully about what you want out of marriage and family life before you disavow your own "high boundaries."
posted by stowaway at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
What about you? It sounds like you feel like you are not being allowed your privacy. And now you question your own boundaries. It's totally ok to say, "Texting with your daughter doesn't work for me until I meet her, and I'm not ready to meet her yet." "Please don't let anyone else have access to our private conversations/emails/texts."
You sound really into this guy but I'd think carefully about what you want out of marriage and family life before you disavow your own "high boundaries."
posted by stowaway at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I kinda want to know how old the grownups are, in this convo. I certainly got texts from Ms. BLF's 5yo back when we were dating. I thought it odd that he got access to her iPhone, but that is another axis to consider, outside of high-boundary versus low-boundary; Montessori anti-tech parents versus parents who use tech as pacifiers. FWIW Ms. BLF is a tech-pacifier parent, and I think that kids oughtn't see screens at all until they're 3 or 4. It is way tougher to manage that difference between us than it is to manage high versus low boundary family interaction styles.
OTOH because I gave in to Ms. BLF on the issue of screen time for tots, I get the joy of being woken up by 2yo BLF Jr at 5AM to succumb to his demands to cuddle on the couch and watch Cosmos Show with Neil Grass Tie Son.
posted by BrunoLatourFanclub at 8:17 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
OTOH because I gave in to Ms. BLF on the issue of screen time for tots, I get the joy of being woken up by 2yo BLF Jr at 5AM to succumb to his demands to cuddle on the couch and watch Cosmos Show with Neil Grass Tie Son.
posted by BrunoLatourFanclub at 8:17 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd say overall it sounds like an amiable relaxed family dynamic, so I would not be judging till I met them all and confirmed nothing feels off. But yeah, stress your boundaries about the phone calls getting sexy. Tell him you're saying bye and hanging up if he starts getting sexy and he can call you way after their bedtime.
The kids seem well adjusted about the parents dating, so I wouldn't think to stay away for their benefit. If they are able to handle it as "no big deal" as it appears, then you can't make it a big deal without it getting weirder then they'd like it to be. Maybe discuss what hopes or expectations he has after you do meet them and what that could look like. I am sure with the holidays coming before the divorce he'd like you around quite a bit to help with the transition that you guys are planning. How do you feel about that and how do you imagine it best working out? Those would be good things to discuss with Dad,
posted by TenaciousB at 8:57 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The kids seem well adjusted about the parents dating, so I wouldn't think to stay away for their benefit. If they are able to handle it as "no big deal" as it appears, then you can't make it a big deal without it getting weirder then they'd like it to be. Maybe discuss what hopes or expectations he has after you do meet them and what that could look like. I am sure with the holidays coming before the divorce he'd like you around quite a bit to help with the transition that you guys are planning. How do you feel about that and how do you imagine it best working out? Those would be good things to discuss with Dad,
posted by TenaciousB at 8:57 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you so much, EVERYONE for your very real and helpful feedback. As expected, there's a really wide gamut of feelings on these issues -- and I really appreciate that, most of all, everyone is interested in the kids welfare.
I agree -- even if he balked for a bit, whatever -- he can deal with not having any innuendo one every couple of weekends. (To be clear, I'm not talking about suggestive metaphorical innuendo. More like dumb stuff that makes adult friends roll their eyes at each other.)
Also, I should be okay with his offer to not let his daughter not use his phone if he really wants free range texting. It IS okay. I sometimes get shy about asserting myself, but -- yeah, it's wise to let him take the offer.
I absolutely didn't mean for his daughter reaching in his pocket to sound sexual.
I especially appreciate the input from those that grew up with "low boundary" families -- with what I've picked up, I don't think his mom asked his daughter to do anything so she could listen in. I think the daughter just makes phone calls for fun and sends people emoticons and stuff.
The family, in general, seems to keep in close contact with each other all of the time while they multitask and do things with technology and/or talk to each other and other people. That's not how my family was, and I can see the heavy use of technology being troubling, but since he's there with them, and they're discussing what's going on while playing games and asking Siri questions and so forth...it doesn't seem so dysfunctional. Just different.
Anyhow....thanks so much again, everyone. :) !!! You guys are awesome!
posted by alice_curiouse at 11:58 PM on September 26, 2015
I agree -- even if he balked for a bit, whatever -- he can deal with not having any innuendo one every couple of weekends. (To be clear, I'm not talking about suggestive metaphorical innuendo. More like dumb stuff that makes adult friends roll their eyes at each other.)
Also, I should be okay with his offer to not let his daughter not use his phone if he really wants free range texting. It IS okay. I sometimes get shy about asserting myself, but -- yeah, it's wise to let him take the offer.
I absolutely didn't mean for his daughter reaching in his pocket to sound sexual.
I especially appreciate the input from those that grew up with "low boundary" families -- with what I've picked up, I don't think his mom asked his daughter to do anything so she could listen in. I think the daughter just makes phone calls for fun and sends people emoticons and stuff.
The family, in general, seems to keep in close contact with each other all of the time while they multitask and do things with technology and/or talk to each other and other people. That's not how my family was, and I can see the heavy use of technology being troubling, but since he's there with them, and they're discussing what's going on while playing games and asking Siri questions and so forth...it doesn't seem so dysfunctional. Just different.
Anyhow....thanks so much again, everyone. :) !!! You guys are awesome!
posted by alice_curiouse at 11:58 PM on September 26, 2015
Him only seeing them every other weekend is very odd to me. Everyone I know has a close to 50/50 residential plan. And the single house thing *sounds* good but isn't sustainable in the long term. Does any of this concern you?
posted by k8t at 12:15 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by k8t at 12:15 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
He wants to marry you and he hasn't even seen you around his kids? Red flag.
posted by k8t at 12:18 AM on September 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by k8t at 12:18 AM on September 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'm concerned about the amount of access he has. I'm a parent of kids with special needs and my kids' dad has not proven himself capable of a 50/50 situation (which is awful). I am wondering how much of the parenting and advocacy is offloaded to their mom and how sustainable that is for her. I also wonder why he hasn't advocated for more time. I can see the housing arrangement if their child has autism and the rotation would be too much. I've seen some families make this work longer term. However, like k8t, I'm concerned that he wants to marry you and he hasn't seen you around his kids, especially when one child has special needs.
The innuendo stuff is a no-no in my books. And he's rolling over your boundaries and those of his children in using it around them or on a device they can read...and he isn't even with them that often.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 1:07 AM on September 27, 2015
The innuendo stuff is a no-no in my books. And he's rolling over your boundaries and those of his children in using it around them or on a device they can read...and he isn't even with them that often.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 1:07 AM on September 27, 2015
I think some answers here are making extreme judgements based on a pretty limited amount of information. It's certainly possible that there are some red flags here, but I don't think we have nearly enough information to start calling people mentally ill, for example. There are some potentially problematic things here, but not necessarily.
It seems like a positive sign that he has offered to change his behavior based on your concerns about his daughter's access to his phone, and assuming he follows through with that, I'd consider that very encouraging. As far as the innuendo, I'm not sure what you mean about "balking" but this is another area where he should be respecting your boundaries, and if he is not, you may need to have an additional conversation about your boundaries to make sure he understands the importance of that in general and in this specific situation.
It's interesting that you say you haven't "met" his kids when you have been texting and having phone conversations with them. Too soon or not, you already have met his daughter, electronically. I think it's OK to trust him and his ex-wife that now is an appropriate time to meet them in person. It may not be the right choice, in the fullness of time, but it seems like it is a concious choice they are making as parents. If you disagree, then certainly they should respect that decision on your part, but it doesn't seem like you are affirmatively opposed to the idea, just aren't sure, and I think it's OK to take their lead on this, if you trust that they have the kids' best interests in mind.
I also think that you will be able to make a better assessment of their family dynamics, and whether or not they are healthy once you are able to meet the kids in person and watch his interactions with them first-hand. Again, it's possible that there are some unhealthy dynamics in the family, and this guy and his ex may be doing a bad job of setting and enforcing boundaries, but I'm not ready to make that call for sure based on what you have said here, and I think for you to say "This is different from what I am used to, but that doesn't make it bad." If you are comfortable with it, I think it is OK for you to become closer to his family, but go in with your eyes open, and if things still seem weird once you have a more intimate view, then maybe reassess if this is the right long-term relationship for you.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:20 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
It seems like a positive sign that he has offered to change his behavior based on your concerns about his daughter's access to his phone, and assuming he follows through with that, I'd consider that very encouraging. As far as the innuendo, I'm not sure what you mean about "balking" but this is another area where he should be respecting your boundaries, and if he is not, you may need to have an additional conversation about your boundaries to make sure he understands the importance of that in general and in this specific situation.
It's interesting that you say you haven't "met" his kids when you have been texting and having phone conversations with them. Too soon or not, you already have met his daughter, electronically. I think it's OK to trust him and his ex-wife that now is an appropriate time to meet them in person. It may not be the right choice, in the fullness of time, but it seems like it is a concious choice they are making as parents. If you disagree, then certainly they should respect that decision on your part, but it doesn't seem like you are affirmatively opposed to the idea, just aren't sure, and I think it's OK to take their lead on this, if you trust that they have the kids' best interests in mind.
I also think that you will be able to make a better assessment of their family dynamics, and whether or not they are healthy once you are able to meet the kids in person and watch his interactions with them first-hand. Again, it's possible that there are some unhealthy dynamics in the family, and this guy and his ex may be doing a bad job of setting and enforcing boundaries, but I'm not ready to make that call for sure based on what you have said here, and I think for you to say "This is different from what I am used to, but that doesn't make it bad." If you are comfortable with it, I think it is OK for you to become closer to his family, but go in with your eyes open, and if things still seem weird once you have a more intimate view, then maybe reassess if this is the right long-term relationship for you.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:20 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, my parents amicably split when I was 12, and we stayed with my Dad every other weekend (he also took us out to dinner once or twice a week and we would occasionally stay with him longer on school vacations). Maybe things are different now, custody-wise, but it seems like a fairly normal split to me.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:25 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 4:25 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh man. This guy is talking about his future with you as a forever thing and you haven't met his kids???
Other stuff you wrote indicates some pretty stupid parenting like letting his kid text strangers
But
You haven't even met his kids and he's talking a lifetime commitment??
No. This is not something good parents do. This is a big waving flag.
posted by kinetic at 5:46 AM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Other stuff you wrote indicates some pretty stupid parenting like letting his kid text strangers
But
You haven't even met his kids and he's talking a lifetime commitment??
No. This is not something good parents do. This is a big waving flag.
posted by kinetic at 5:46 AM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
I can't imagine what the family, friends, and therapist said, but. One reason it is often not a good idea to seriously date people in the middle of going through major life transitions is that there is no way to know who/how they will be when they finish the transition and come out on the other side.
This is so much more critical for divorcing parents. This guy needs to carefully puzzle out what his new life, as a co-parent rather than a married parent, looks like.
He is not navigating the transition well at all by trying to make serious commitments to somebody who may or may not mesh well with his kids.
It speaks really poorly of him and sounds like a terrible deal for you -- the step-parenting racket is difficult and needs a lot of thoughtfulness and careful parenting. This guy is not thoughtful, is not parenting well, is not putting his kids first; if you go forward here you will end up with stepchildren who are the children of a parent who does not have the high-level parenting skills needed to add a new person to the family.
> Internet articles about "when should kids meet the new dating partners" are all over the place
Yeah; a good % of it is slut-shaming nonsense based on the fantasy that single mothers are sluts and are going to have a new live-in boyfriend every two months, and that they will instruct the kids to call all of these men "Daddy." Much of it can be safely ignored.
Kids take their cues on how important somebody is from their parent. It is fine to meet the kids in low-key ways fairly early on.
This doesn't sound low-key. A 6yo texting and calling somebody she's never met...? It sounds like Dad has already upsold the "Dad's very special friend" idea, which is unfortunate. Ideally you should be just another adult friend of their father's until it's clear that the relationship has very good odds of working out, and that is not something that can be remotely clear until it's known how you and the kids will get on.
> "a-ha! that's a good rule of thumb"
-- don't get into serious relationships with parents who struggle with parenting
-- don't expect people (adults or children) going through major life transitions to be able to predict quite what their new normal will be
-- don't marry a parent without having a lot of in-person experiences that make clear that you will genuinely enjoy living with and caring for their child(ren)
posted by kmennie at 7:01 AM on September 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
This is so much more critical for divorcing parents. This guy needs to carefully puzzle out what his new life, as a co-parent rather than a married parent, looks like.
He is not navigating the transition well at all by trying to make serious commitments to somebody who may or may not mesh well with his kids.
It speaks really poorly of him and sounds like a terrible deal for you -- the step-parenting racket is difficult and needs a lot of thoughtfulness and careful parenting. This guy is not thoughtful, is not parenting well, is not putting his kids first; if you go forward here you will end up with stepchildren who are the children of a parent who does not have the high-level parenting skills needed to add a new person to the family.
> Internet articles about "when should kids meet the new dating partners" are all over the place
Yeah; a good % of it is slut-shaming nonsense based on the fantasy that single mothers are sluts and are going to have a new live-in boyfriend every two months, and that they will instruct the kids to call all of these men "Daddy." Much of it can be safely ignored.
Kids take their cues on how important somebody is from their parent. It is fine to meet the kids in low-key ways fairly early on.
This doesn't sound low-key. A 6yo texting and calling somebody she's never met...? It sounds like Dad has already upsold the "Dad's very special friend" idea, which is unfortunate. Ideally you should be just another adult friend of their father's until it's clear that the relationship has very good odds of working out, and that is not something that can be remotely clear until it's known how you and the kids will get on.
> "a-ha! that's a good rule of thumb"
-- don't get into serious relationships with parents who struggle with parenting
-- don't expect people (adults or children) going through major life transitions to be able to predict quite what their new normal will be
-- don't marry a parent without having a lot of in-person experiences that make clear that you will genuinely enjoy living with and caring for their child(ren)
posted by kmennie at 7:01 AM on September 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
None of this shows good judgment, in my view. YOU don't seem to think so, either, which is way more important. Enforce your boundaries, and if he doesn't change, walk.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:01 AM on September 27, 2015
posted by J. Wilson at 7:01 AM on September 27, 2015
If that particular matter is what is truly bothering you (speaking to you in front of the kids when the conversation has innuendo), I would submit that is likely the tip of the iceberg of things that will annoy you.
Wanting to introduce his kids to you before his actual divorce is final should have been the first thing that raised a red flag.
The ex-wife introducing short term male partners to her kid is another flag. No one, male or female, should be introducing a potential partner to their kids until you know the relationship is rock solid. Relationships formed while a divorce is ongoing is rarely rock solid; usually, it's quite the opposite.
There's just way too much bad judgement going on here.
posted by PsuDab93 at 6:57 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wanting to introduce his kids to you before his actual divorce is final should have been the first thing that raised a red flag.
The ex-wife introducing short term male partners to her kid is another flag. No one, male or female, should be introducing a potential partner to their kids until you know the relationship is rock solid. Relationships formed while a divorce is ongoing is rarely rock solid; usually, it's quite the opposite.
There's just way too much bad judgement going on here.
posted by PsuDab93 at 6:57 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Him only seeing them every other weekend is very odd to me. Everyone I know has a close to 50/50 residential plan.
That is incredibly common. In fact, I have the opposite experience. I can think of one family that has a 50/50. Unless everyone lives in same neighbor it is incredibly disruptive.
Also, keep in that mind that in a lot of (if not most) states, a 50/50 setup means that neither spouse receives any sort of child support. My ex-wife could literally not afford to take care of our daughter if I wasn't paying her.
posted by sideshow at 12:10 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
That is incredibly common. In fact, I have the opposite experience. I can think of one family that has a 50/50. Unless everyone lives in same neighbor it is incredibly disruptive.
Also, keep in that mind that in a lot of (if not most) states, a 50/50 setup means that neither spouse receives any sort of child support. My ex-wife could literally not afford to take care of our daughter if I wasn't paying her.
posted by sideshow at 12:10 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
He wants to marry you and he hasn't even seen you around his kids? Red flag.
Yeah, of all the things, this is biggest thing. The mother getting involved in your dating life is weird and against my experience, but some people are strange.
I was really upfront with girlfriend that any sort of bad relationship between her and my (at the time 4 year old) daughter was a 100% deal breaker. Everyone is super pals, so it all worked out, but I didn't even consider ourselves in a serious relationship until they met for the first time.
posted by sideshow at 12:17 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, of all the things, this is biggest thing. The mother getting involved in your dating life is weird and against my experience, but some people are strange.
I was really upfront with girlfriend that any sort of bad relationship between her and my (at the time 4 year old) daughter was a 100% deal breaker. Everyone is super pals, so it all worked out, but I didn't even consider ourselves in a serious relationship until they met for the first time.
posted by sideshow at 12:17 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Mr. Justice at 5:24 PM on September 26, 2015 [14 favorites]