How would you learn a dialect (Shanghainese) w/few learning resources?
September 21, 2015 7:07 AM Subscribe
So right now I am learning Mandarin, and that is my primary goal. It's coming along fine, and as Mandarin has plenty of foreign learners, there are a lot of really great learning resources (and I have a tutor I work with as well). My learning goals for Mandarin are ambitious, and that isn't going to change. THAT SAID, my girlfriend's family does speak Mandarin, but their first language is definitely shanghainese. While my eventual goals with shanghainese are more modest than with Mandarin -- be able to chat around the house with her family -- it's also a lot less clear to me how to achieve it.
One might say: just learn from her parents! But for me, at least, I've always benefitted a lot from having someone (or even a textbook if that is all there is) break down the structure of a language, the sounds, that sort of thing... not having that for Shanghainese is tough, because since they are native speakers, they don't know how to explain any of it, especially to an English speaker. So I'm curious what tactics people use to learn languages where they can't rely on the output and wisdom of many other learners? I know this has been done plenty because you hear about ethnographers and researches spending time with population x and learning the language, though maybe their fluency is in practice quite limited? I'm just wondering if there are any general ways to structure learning a language when you know that you will not have the luxury of 10 different explanations of some finer grammatical point online, that sort of thing.
My gf and I do have plans to spend significant time in Shanghai at some point and while I know that Mandarin is globally useful and is my main goal, I also know that I'm never going to be a full part of her family until I'm conversant in Shanghainese.
One might say: just learn from her parents! But for me, at least, I've always benefitted a lot from having someone (or even a textbook if that is all there is) break down the structure of a language, the sounds, that sort of thing... not having that for Shanghainese is tough, because since they are native speakers, they don't know how to explain any of it, especially to an English speaker. So I'm curious what tactics people use to learn languages where they can't rely on the output and wisdom of many other learners? I know this has been done plenty because you hear about ethnographers and researches spending time with population x and learning the language, though maybe their fluency is in practice quite limited? I'm just wondering if there are any general ways to structure learning a language when you know that you will not have the luxury of 10 different explanations of some finer grammatical point online, that sort of thing.
My gf and I do have plans to spend significant time in Shanghai at some point and while I know that Mandarin is globally useful and is my main goal, I also know that I'm never going to be a full part of her family until I'm conversant in Shanghainese.
I would start with videos- there should definitely be something on youtube.
Later on, you could find some shows or movies that contain Shanghainese- ask your girlfriend or her family for recommendations.
Since your goal is to be able to chat, I think that videos and audio are the best way to go, and there should be youtube videos breaking down the basics. I also agree that getting a textbook written in Chinese to learn Shanghainese would be helpful, although you may need to wait until your Chinese reading is more advanced depending on where it is now.
posted by bearette at 7:27 AM on September 21, 2015
Later on, you could find some shows or movies that contain Shanghainese- ask your girlfriend or her family for recommendations.
Since your goal is to be able to chat, I think that videos and audio are the best way to go, and there should be youtube videos breaking down the basics. I also agree that getting a textbook written in Chinese to learn Shanghainese would be helpful, although you may need to wait until your Chinese reading is more advanced depending on where it is now.
posted by bearette at 7:27 AM on September 21, 2015
Shanghainese is a dialect of Wu, so your Mandarin studies will be of limited (but some) use.
According to the polyglot circles I run in, this book is the best and just about only game in town for English speakers. And for Pete's sake, get the companion audio. Otherwise, check out this link.
I am not familiar enough with Chinese language culture to know how you would come off speaking book-learned dialect. I can tell you as a speaker of a Japanese dialect, those who learn dialect from a textbook come off as affected. I don't know if this would be the case for a non-native speaking the Shanghai dialect of Wu (I am sure a knowledgeable person will chime in to say), but you might encounter some amused people.
I'm just wondering if there are any general ways to structure learning a language when you know that you will not have the luxury of 10 different explanations of some finer grammatical point online, that sort of thing.
The same way, just with a lot less resources. 30-60 minutes per day, drill vocabulary, drill listening, drill grammar. Consistency is king.
posted by Tanizaki at 7:31 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
According to the polyglot circles I run in, this book is the best and just about only game in town for English speakers. And for Pete's sake, get the companion audio. Otherwise, check out this link.
I am not familiar enough with Chinese language culture to know how you would come off speaking book-learned dialect. I can tell you as a speaker of a Japanese dialect, those who learn dialect from a textbook come off as affected. I don't know if this would be the case for a non-native speaking the Shanghai dialect of Wu (I am sure a knowledgeable person will chime in to say), but you might encounter some amused people.
I'm just wondering if there are any general ways to structure learning a language when you know that you will not have the luxury of 10 different explanations of some finer grammatical point online, that sort of thing.
The same way, just with a lot less resources. 30-60 minutes per day, drill vocabulary, drill listening, drill grammar. Consistency is king.
posted by Tanizaki at 7:31 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Find missionaries or Peace Corps volunteers who have worked in the region you're interested in, or linguistics professors who do research on the language, and ask how they learned.
Sometimes the answer will be "Sorry, I wish I could help but there's nothing useful." But sometimes it will be "Yeah, the Peace Corps put together a basic textbook in the 60s and you can get it on interlibrary loan" or "Here's a collection of recordings you can practice listening to" or whatever.
Also...
I know this has been done plenty because you hear about ethnographers and researches spending time with population x and learning the language, though maybe their fluency is in practice quite limited?
I'm a linguist, and my experience is that access to textbooks has very little correlation with people's eventual fluency in the language they're researching. The thing that correlates the most strongly with eventual fluency is willingness to make mistakes in conversation. If you keep showing up and speaking language X, and reaching out to people, and pushing yourself to say things you aren't 100% sure how to say, and risking looking like a moron, you'll learn language X. If you don't take those risks, you won't.
A textbook helps. But really what you need to do is push yourself to speak Shanghainese to your girlfriend's family whenever possible, without falling back on English or Mandarin unless it's really crucial.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:44 AM on September 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sometimes the answer will be "Sorry, I wish I could help but there's nothing useful." But sometimes it will be "Yeah, the Peace Corps put together a basic textbook in the 60s and you can get it on interlibrary loan" or "Here's a collection of recordings you can practice listening to" or whatever.
Also...
I know this has been done plenty because you hear about ethnographers and researches spending time with population x and learning the language, though maybe their fluency is in practice quite limited?
I'm a linguist, and my experience is that access to textbooks has very little correlation with people's eventual fluency in the language they're researching. The thing that correlates the most strongly with eventual fluency is willingness to make mistakes in conversation. If you keep showing up and speaking language X, and reaching out to people, and pushing yourself to say things you aren't 100% sure how to say, and risking looking like a moron, you'll learn language X. If you don't take those risks, you won't.
A textbook helps. But really what you need to do is push yourself to speak Shanghainese to your girlfriend's family whenever possible, without falling back on English or Mandarin unless it's really crucial.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:44 AM on September 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
(Er, though I should also mention that you should respect her family's tolerance for that sort of thing. Some people enjoy humoring beginners. Some people find it awkward or insulting or weird. Hopefully you will find one or two people in her family who are in the first category and not the second.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:46 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:46 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
In addition to the above resources, I would look for tutors and language exchange opportunities. It's wonderfully helpful to have a native speaker sit and listen to you speak and give you thoughtful feedback. They can also suggest good words and phrases that will make you sound more natural, and help make up for the deficiencies in the learning materials.
It's not always easy to find good tutors and language exchange partners, so you might have to try multiple people to find a good fit for your learning style. I'm sure they would be much easier to find in Shanghai, but maybe you can also find someone to Skype with through one of the language exchange web sites out there. (I haven't tried any.)
posted by isthmus at 7:49 AM on September 21, 2015
It's not always easy to find good tutors and language exchange partners, so you might have to try multiple people to find a good fit for your learning style. I'm sure they would be much easier to find in Shanghai, but maybe you can also find someone to Skype with through one of the language exchange web sites out there. (I haven't tried any.)
posted by isthmus at 7:49 AM on September 21, 2015
Response by poster: Wow! Great responses!
One meta question: when should I start learning? Is it insanity to continue my (quite intense) mandarin studies, but throw in some shanghainese study? Usually I would say no, because I'd fear mixing up the two... But in this case her family could be my shanghainese study and the rest of my time could be mandarin. I don't know. Would love thoughts? While learning mandarin has helped me convey ideas effectively, they basically don't like to speak it unless they have to. They prefer to use broken English to their fluent mandarin..
"According to the polyglot circles I run in, this book is the best and just about only game in town for English speakers. And for Pete's sake, get the companion audio. Otherwise, check out this link."
I love you. And about speaking affected Shanghainese: I'd love to get to that point ;) I am fortunate that her family and friends will enthusiastically support my efforts, so if I can just get a foothold I think they can help a lot. More than with mandarin even -- my gf's dad jokes that my mandarin is better than his :p it's a lie but it underscores that even if I understand some shanghainese I can just respond in mandarin and we will have more meaningful conversations
"(Er, though I should also mention that you should respect her family's tolerance for that sort of thing. Some people enjoy humoring beginners. Some people find it awkward or insulting or weird. Hopefully you will find one or two people in her family who are in the first category and not the second.)"
I was worried about this but much to my delight, they're super supportive. It's just that their English isn't very good so their ability to explain anything is extremely minimal... But if they haven't gotten annoyed at how many times I've given them pleco so they could write down what they were saying, they won't by now :D
"It's not always easy to find good tutors and language exchange partners, so you might have to try multiple people to find a good fit for your learning style. I'm sure they would be much easier to find in Shanghai, but maybe you can also find someone to Skype with through one of the language exchange web sites out there. (I haven't tried any.)"
This is a great idea. I live in NYC but have no idea if there are any shanghainese tutors here, given how few foreigners learn it. I might be able to find one in shanghai and skype though...
"How about books in Mandarin about Shanghainese? Or do you want to start learning before your Mandarin advances far enough to read that sort of thing?"
Not averse to it, but are there even any good resources in mandarin? Any recs?
posted by wooh at 8:58 AM on September 21, 2015
One meta question: when should I start learning? Is it insanity to continue my (quite intense) mandarin studies, but throw in some shanghainese study? Usually I would say no, because I'd fear mixing up the two... But in this case her family could be my shanghainese study and the rest of my time could be mandarin. I don't know. Would love thoughts? While learning mandarin has helped me convey ideas effectively, they basically don't like to speak it unless they have to. They prefer to use broken English to their fluent mandarin..
"According to the polyglot circles I run in, this book is the best and just about only game in town for English speakers. And for Pete's sake, get the companion audio. Otherwise, check out this link."
I love you. And about speaking affected Shanghainese: I'd love to get to that point ;) I am fortunate that her family and friends will enthusiastically support my efforts, so if I can just get a foothold I think they can help a lot. More than with mandarin even -- my gf's dad jokes that my mandarin is better than his :p it's a lie but it underscores that even if I understand some shanghainese I can just respond in mandarin and we will have more meaningful conversations
"(Er, though I should also mention that you should respect her family's tolerance for that sort of thing. Some people enjoy humoring beginners. Some people find it awkward or insulting or weird. Hopefully you will find one or two people in her family who are in the first category and not the second.)"
I was worried about this but much to my delight, they're super supportive. It's just that their English isn't very good so their ability to explain anything is extremely minimal... But if they haven't gotten annoyed at how many times I've given them pleco so they could write down what they were saying, they won't by now :D
"It's not always easy to find good tutors and language exchange partners, so you might have to try multiple people to find a good fit for your learning style. I'm sure they would be much easier to find in Shanghai, but maybe you can also find someone to Skype with through one of the language exchange web sites out there. (I haven't tried any.)"
This is a great idea. I live in NYC but have no idea if there are any shanghainese tutors here, given how few foreigners learn it. I might be able to find one in shanghai and skype though...
"How about books in Mandarin about Shanghainese? Or do you want to start learning before your Mandarin advances far enough to read that sort of thing?"
Not averse to it, but are there even any good resources in mandarin? Any recs?
posted by wooh at 8:58 AM on September 21, 2015
I was worried about this but much to my delight, they're super supportive. It's just that their English isn't very good so their ability to explain anything is extremely minimal...
This may be a blessing in disguise — it means they may not feel as much pressure to help you out by switching to English if you don't understand something in Shanghainese right away.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:08 AM on September 21, 2015
This may be a blessing in disguise — it means they may not feel as much pressure to help you out by switching to English if you don't understand something in Shanghainese right away.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:08 AM on September 21, 2015
> I live in NYC but have no idea if there are any shanghainese tutors here,
There are definitely Shanghai restaurants, though, and you might find opportunities to practice there. (I realize a lot of the people who work there will not be Shanghainese, of course; I once had an amusing experience trying to practice Cantonese with a waiter in a Cantonese restaurant when it turned out his native dialect was Mandarin and he himself was learning Cantonese to use with the customers!)
posted by languagehat at 9:59 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are definitely Shanghai restaurants, though, and you might find opportunities to practice there. (I realize a lot of the people who work there will not be Shanghainese, of course; I once had an amusing experience trying to practice Cantonese with a waiter in a Cantonese restaurant when it turned out his native dialect was Mandarin and he himself was learning Cantonese to use with the customers!)
posted by languagehat at 9:59 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Haha my family and their friends have taken me to a number of Shanhainese where they shot the shit with the waiters in shanghainese. Definitely in the cards. A tutor would just be so helpful to help me avoid the mistakes that I'm sure will inevitably come from trying to speak Shanghainese as if it were Mandarin!
posted by wooh at 10:10 AM on September 21, 2015
posted by wooh at 10:10 AM on September 21, 2015
when should I start learning? Is it insanity to continue my (quite intense) mandarin studies, but throw in some shanghainese study?
It depends on your goals. I generally favor sticking with one language at a time, although will sometimes go to something like an 80/20 split for a bit of variety although the 20% language is usually one that I have previously studied to a decent level and I wish to reactivate it. I take from your question that Mandarin is your primary goal and that Shanghainese is a nice extra, so I would recommend having Mandarin as your 80 and Shanghainese as your 20.
Usually I would say no, because I'd fear mixing up the two... But in this case her family could be my shanghainese study and the rest of my time could be mandarin.
This is a mistake. Another human being cannot be your language study. Whatever plans you make for Shanghainese, you have to plan and execute them as if her family does not exist. If they choose to speak Shanghainese with you, that is a bonus.
Also, please, don't let the lack of a tutor or conversation partners hold you back.
posted by Tanizaki at 11:04 AM on September 21, 2015
It depends on your goals. I generally favor sticking with one language at a time, although will sometimes go to something like an 80/20 split for a bit of variety although the 20% language is usually one that I have previously studied to a decent level and I wish to reactivate it. I take from your question that Mandarin is your primary goal and that Shanghainese is a nice extra, so I would recommend having Mandarin as your 80 and Shanghainese as your 20.
Usually I would say no, because I'd fear mixing up the two... But in this case her family could be my shanghainese study and the rest of my time could be mandarin.
This is a mistake. Another human being cannot be your language study. Whatever plans you make for Shanghainese, you have to plan and execute them as if her family does not exist. If they choose to speak Shanghainese with you, that is a bonus.
Also, please, don't let the lack of a tutor or conversation partners hold you back.
posted by Tanizaki at 11:04 AM on September 21, 2015
Haha my family and their friends have taken me to a number of Shanhainese where they shot the shit with the waiters in shanghainese.
If these restaurants are local, you could go there and bring a flyer requesting that anyone interested in being a Shanhainese tutor contact you - ask them to put it up in the kitchen or somewhere in the back of the house. It seems likely that at least some of waitstaff is both fluent in Shanhainese & speaks English well enough to help. Offer to pay generously for their time, of course - I'm sure that many waiters would be happy to earn some extra cash.
posted by insectosaurus at 12:35 PM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
If these restaurants are local, you could go there and bring a flyer requesting that anyone interested in being a Shanhainese tutor contact you - ask them to put it up in the kitchen or somewhere in the back of the house. It seems likely that at least some of waitstaff is both fluent in Shanhainese & speaks English well enough to help. Offer to pay generously for their time, of course - I'm sure that many waiters would be happy to earn some extra cash.
posted by insectosaurus at 12:35 PM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: "This is a mistake. Another human being cannot be your language study. Whatever plans you make for Shanghainese, you have to plan and execute them as if her family does not exist. If they choose to speak Shanghainese with you, that is a bonus."
I'm confused by this attitude and think we may be misunderstanding each other. A primary motivation for me to learn Shanghainese is that my girlfriend's family, extended family, and many of their family friends prefer it as a language of conversation. They have also been enthusiastic in offering to help me in the sense that they don't mind me speaking poorly, will make corrections, and are genuinely supportive and enthusiastic. So all I meant is that I can practice shanghainese regularly with them. it seems odd to me to ignore a big reason/helper in learning s language, especially one like shanghainese that is so tied to home/family uses. Did I misunderstand? I do appreciate all the wise words that have been shared
posted by wooh at 3:41 PM on September 21, 2015
I'm confused by this attitude and think we may be misunderstanding each other. A primary motivation for me to learn Shanghainese is that my girlfriend's family, extended family, and many of their family friends prefer it as a language of conversation. They have also been enthusiastic in offering to help me in the sense that they don't mind me speaking poorly, will make corrections, and are genuinely supportive and enthusiastic. So all I meant is that I can practice shanghainese regularly with them. it seems odd to me to ignore a big reason/helper in learning s language, especially one like shanghainese that is so tied to home/family uses. Did I misunderstand? I do appreciate all the wise words that have been shared
posted by wooh at 3:41 PM on September 21, 2015
Not averse to it, but are there even any good resources in mandarin? Any recs?
I can't recommend anything in particular (my books on the topic are in Japanese), but there must be something good. Just searching for 上海話 (appropriately simplified) finds thousands of links, it's a major city in China... I would recommend hitting up your source for Chinese books and seeing what they have in the catalogue. Good luck!
posted by No-sword at 4:28 AM on September 22, 2015
I can't recommend anything in particular (my books on the topic are in Japanese), but there must be something good. Just searching for 上海話 (appropriately simplified) finds thousands of links, it's a major city in China... I would recommend hitting up your source for Chinese books and seeing what they have in the catalogue. Good luck!
posted by No-sword at 4:28 AM on September 22, 2015
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posted by No-sword at 7:10 AM on September 21, 2015