Cleopatra in Context
September 14, 2015 10:22 AM Subscribe
It seems modern history books are bad about depicting Cleopatra as merely the love interest of Julius Caesar and downplaying her real historical significance. Help me get some context for her role as a person of power, minus the modern sexism.
Julius Caesar was such a man-tramp that in his own time people said "He was the husband of every woman he met and the wife of every man," yet history books typically downplay his sexual conquests while focusing on his military and political conquests. Cleopatra seems to have been relatively chaste compared to that, yet we mostly hear about her affairs.
So I am looking for examples of men who did the same kinds of things but, because it was a man, it was interpreted differently. For example, she is talked about as a great beauty, but the elaborate eye make up she wore was worn by both male and female pharoahs. I would be interested in hearing if Julius Caesar was known to have sealed any political deals with men in the bedroom. I am interested in whether or not he fathered other illegitimate children beyond the ones he fathered on Cleopatra.
I am also interested in any incidents comparable to her being smuggled naked in a rug to his room to try to broker a deal. History books tend to depict that as just a seductive move, but my understanding is that one reason she was naked was to avoid clinking noises so it was easier to smuggle her past guards. My hypothesis is that part of the reason she was naked was to signal "I am unarmed. I am not an assassin. I only want to talk." in hopes of not being promptly killed. So I am interested in support for that hypothesis. I am not sure there are any incidents with men comparable to her situation, where her brother made a grab for power and wanted her dead, so she went to a would-be invading conquerer to broker a deal and got her thone back. The closest thing I can think of is where Daniel Boone supposedly convinced Native Americans he was blind so they would not kill him. But I would love to see details on any male historical figures who were delivered to their enemy unarmed to broker a deal or anything like that if it available.
Thanks!
Julius Caesar was such a man-tramp that in his own time people said "He was the husband of every woman he met and the wife of every man," yet history books typically downplay his sexual conquests while focusing on his military and political conquests. Cleopatra seems to have been relatively chaste compared to that, yet we mostly hear about her affairs.
So I am looking for examples of men who did the same kinds of things but, because it was a man, it was interpreted differently. For example, she is talked about as a great beauty, but the elaborate eye make up she wore was worn by both male and female pharoahs. I would be interested in hearing if Julius Caesar was known to have sealed any political deals with men in the bedroom. I am interested in whether or not he fathered other illegitimate children beyond the ones he fathered on Cleopatra.
I am also interested in any incidents comparable to her being smuggled naked in a rug to his room to try to broker a deal. History books tend to depict that as just a seductive move, but my understanding is that one reason she was naked was to avoid clinking noises so it was easier to smuggle her past guards. My hypothesis is that part of the reason she was naked was to signal "I am unarmed. I am not an assassin. I only want to talk." in hopes of not being promptly killed. So I am interested in support for that hypothesis. I am not sure there are any incidents with men comparable to her situation, where her brother made a grab for power and wanted her dead, so she went to a would-be invading conquerer to broker a deal and got her thone back. The closest thing I can think of is where Daniel Boone supposedly convinced Native Americans he was blind so they would not kill him. But I would love to see details on any male historical figures who were delivered to their enemy unarmed to broker a deal or anything like that if it available.
Thanks!
Mod note: Fixed "in" to "on".
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I don't have a lot on male equivalents, but you might enjoy Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra: A Life, which puts her in context as an extremely intelligent and savvy woman who navigated a (literally) cutthroat environment to become the richest and most powerful person in the then-richest country on the continent.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: This podcast might be a good general introduction. In our time, BBC, radio 4
posted by ouke at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2015
posted by ouke at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2015
Best answer: Cleopatra: a Life, linked above by Architeuthis, says she had herself delivered to Caesar in a hemp sack rather than a carpet. "She would have been fully clothed, in a formfitting, sleeveless, long linen tunic. The only accessory she needed was the one she alone among Egyptian women was entitled to wear: the diadem, or broad white ribbon, that denoted a Hellenistic ruler. It is unlikely she appeared before Julius Caesar without one tied around her forehead and knotted at the back."
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:07 PM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:07 PM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I would be interested in hearing if Julius Caesar was known to have sealed any political deals with men in the bedroom.
The person you're looking to read about there is Nicomedes IV of Bithynia. The rumor that Caesar had an affair with him when he was sent to Bithynia as a young military attaché dogged him his entire career and is the ultimate genesis of the quote you mention above. See Suetonius' Life of Caesar, §2 and §49.
Aspersions about affairs with other men are quite common in political invective in both Greece and Rome. So you might also wish to read about Mark Antony (as depicted in Cicero's Philippic 2 and elsewhere), for another big name of the time.
I am interested in whether or not he fathered other illegitimate children beyond the ones he fathered on Cleopatra.
No, he is not known to have fathered any children besides Julia, his daughter with his wife, Cornelia. Caesarion (Cleopatra's child) may or may not have been his kid. See Suetonius, Life of Caesar, §52.
My personal feeling is that the rug thing is in fact not historical. Suetonius does not mention it, and it's exactly the sort of story he likes, so if it was known to him, he surely would've put it in. (It comes from Plutarch's Life of Caesar §49.1-2.)
posted by jfaulkner at 2:08 PM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
The person you're looking to read about there is Nicomedes IV of Bithynia. The rumor that Caesar had an affair with him when he was sent to Bithynia as a young military attaché dogged him his entire career and is the ultimate genesis of the quote you mention above. See Suetonius' Life of Caesar, §2 and §49.
Aspersions about affairs with other men are quite common in political invective in both Greece and Rome. So you might also wish to read about Mark Antony (as depicted in Cicero's Philippic 2 and elsewhere), for another big name of the time.
I am interested in whether or not he fathered other illegitimate children beyond the ones he fathered on Cleopatra.
No, he is not known to have fathered any children besides Julia, his daughter with his wife, Cornelia. Caesarion (Cleopatra's child) may or may not have been his kid. See Suetonius, Life of Caesar, §52.
My personal feeling is that the rug thing is in fact not historical. Suetonius does not mention it, and it's exactly the sort of story he likes, so if it was known to him, he surely would've put it in. (It comes from Plutarch's Life of Caesar §49.1-2.)
posted by jfaulkner at 2:08 PM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Just as a note, Suetonius is a shitload of fun and gossipy as hell, but if you bring up something from there as absolute fact to a classics nerd without other sources, you'll probably have 'em point out that Suetonius is generally regarded as one of the less reliable ancient sources. See here and here for a very broad idea. Also, if you're new to the juicy ol' days of reading 2000 year old gossip, you may want to consider the Philippics in their original context as propaganda.
One of the most famous examples of how Caesar's being every woman's husband was something people viewed in a positive-to-neutral light is the story from Plutarch of Servilia's love letter to Caesar. If I remember my old lectures right, the Romans generally enjoyed the hell out of the story and felt it shamed Cato first, Servilia second, and Caesar himself relatively little because WHAT A PLAYER WHAT A STORY WHAT POLITICAL ADVANTAGE I MEAN HE'S SLUTTY, BUT IT DID SHUT CATO RIGHT UP.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:36 PM on September 14, 2015
One of the most famous examples of how Caesar's being every woman's husband was something people viewed in a positive-to-neutral light is the story from Plutarch of Servilia's love letter to Caesar. If I remember my old lectures right, the Romans generally enjoyed the hell out of the story and felt it shamed Cato first, Servilia second, and Caesar himself relatively little because WHAT A PLAYER WHAT A STORY WHAT POLITICAL ADVANTAGE I MEAN HE'S SLUTTY, BUT IT DID SHUT CATO RIGHT UP.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:36 PM on September 14, 2015
Minus some chronological issues, the DJ is, in my opinion, reasonably reliable to the events of the life of Caesar--not to engage in too much Quellenforschung, but it is generally regarded as having been written while Suetonius still had access to the Imperial records, and thus to reflect sources contemporary to Caesar (although one may have issues with those sources' accuracy, of course). Obviously, definitely do be careful of Suetonius' own biases as an author. But I would certainly not characterize the DJ as one of the "less reliable" of ancient sources, myself (it's no Historia Augusta).
The DJ is certainly the most accessible (and entertaining!) primary source for a modern reader, and the source of that quote, which is why I mentioned it (also, I'm biased towards it; I teach it at least once a year). And really, the every-woman's-husband part was in no way regarded as a positive among contemporary Romans. It's two halves of the same gender-troubling coin: Caesar's lack of sexual self-continence (whether he was [rumored to be] allowing other men to penetrate him or penetrating other men's wives) was clearly suspect. Neutral, possibly. Positive? Certainly not.
posted by jfaulkner at 2:57 PM on September 14, 2015
The DJ is certainly the most accessible (and entertaining!) primary source for a modern reader, and the source of that quote, which is why I mentioned it (also, I'm biased towards it; I teach it at least once a year). And really, the every-woman's-husband part was in no way regarded as a positive among contemporary Romans. It's two halves of the same gender-troubling coin: Caesar's lack of sexual self-continence (whether he was [rumored to be] allowing other men to penetrate him or penetrating other men's wives) was clearly suspect. Neutral, possibly. Positive? Certainly not.
posted by jfaulkner at 2:57 PM on September 14, 2015
Best answer: Rex Warner's books on Caesar (written as autobiography) are pretty good on both his slutty propensities and on Cleopatra as a person and as a queen.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:17 PM on September 14, 2015
posted by Sebmojo at 5:17 PM on September 14, 2015
Best answer: It's also very worthwhile to note that part of the Roman propaganda against Caesar (and later, Antony) was rolled up with a perspective on Eastern exoticism that was related to sexuality: embracing any aspect of Egypt beyond her grain exports was seen as quite literally emasculating and (by association) weakening the Republic. This tended to be expressed by the Romans as descriptions of Cleopatra being a temptress, seductress, wilful, witchy, etc, rather than as a fairly canny politician who made calculated allegiances with powerful men as the head of a Roman client state.
Regarding the trade of unarmed envoys: this was actually a fairly common practice in the ancient world. The most famous example is probably Marcus Atilius Regulus, released on parole after capture by the Carthaginians during the first Punic War in the expectation he would urge Rome to sue for peace; instead, he did the opposite. Honor-bound to return to Carthage no matter what the outcome, he did so, and (according to Roman tradition) was tortured to death there, becoming a model of Roman civic duty. So there exists an early tradition of throwing yourself at the mercy of others while retaining a certain pride.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 6:29 PM on September 14, 2015
Regarding the trade of unarmed envoys: this was actually a fairly common practice in the ancient world. The most famous example is probably Marcus Atilius Regulus, released on parole after capture by the Carthaginians during the first Punic War in the expectation he would urge Rome to sue for peace; instead, he did the opposite. Honor-bound to return to Carthage no matter what the outcome, he did so, and (according to Roman tradition) was tortured to death there, becoming a model of Roman civic duty. So there exists an early tradition of throwing yourself at the mercy of others while retaining a certain pride.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 6:29 PM on September 14, 2015
Best answer: For Cleopatra biographies, I would suggest Duane Roller's Cleopatra - A Biography (2010).
posted by BWA at 2:45 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by BWA at 2:45 PM on September 15, 2015
« Older Where classical and pop music collide | Stories about Women who are Fighting Sexual... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
Also, other stuff about her actual accomplishments is also welcome.
Thanks.
posted by Michele in California at 10:53 AM on September 14, 2015