Why does Wikipedia say Howard Stern is "LGBT"?
August 27, 2015 7:34 PM Subscribe
The Wikipedia list of "LGBT people from New York" includes Howard Stern. I don't think the "LGBT" part is accurate, but I don't see any way to edit it. How can I fix this?
This also shows up at the bottom of Stern's Wikipedia page (under "Categories," which can't be edited).
I can't see any way to remove items from the list of "LGBT people from New York" page. I do have a Wikipedia account and I have edited Wikipedia before, but if there's some obvious way to do this, it's not clear to me. I've clicked "help" on categories and haven't found anything useful.
As Wikipedia says, Stern is married to a woman. This is his second marriage, and his previous marriage was also to a woman (with whom he had 3 children). Wikipedia also lists other women he's dated. Wikipedia doesn't mention Stern ever dating any men, and his Wikipedia page doesn't include the word "bisexual" (or "straight" or "gay" or "homosexual" or "heterosexual"). Googling for lists of who Stern has dated turns up lists of women. Googling for info about whether Stern is bisexual doesn't turn up anything relevant that I can see. I've listened to many hours' worth of Stern's show, and he reveals a lot of personal info about himself, but I don't remember him ever hinting at being bisexual (or transgender). Stern is always expressing his sexual attraction to women. AskMe has never before considered the possibility that Stern could be bisexual.
Also, Wikipedia's policy on LGBT lists is that "living persons must self-identify as LGBT," and I don't think Stern "self-identifies as LGBT."
So, am I wrong, and if not, how can I edit Wikipedia to fix this?
This also shows up at the bottom of Stern's Wikipedia page (under "Categories," which can't be edited).
I can't see any way to remove items from the list of "LGBT people from New York" page. I do have a Wikipedia account and I have edited Wikipedia before, but if there's some obvious way to do this, it's not clear to me. I've clicked "help" on categories and haven't found anything useful.
As Wikipedia says, Stern is married to a woman. This is his second marriage, and his previous marriage was also to a woman (with whom he had 3 children). Wikipedia also lists other women he's dated. Wikipedia doesn't mention Stern ever dating any men, and his Wikipedia page doesn't include the word "bisexual" (or "straight" or "gay" or "homosexual" or "heterosexual"). Googling for lists of who Stern has dated turns up lists of women. Googling for info about whether Stern is bisexual doesn't turn up anything relevant that I can see. I've listened to many hours' worth of Stern's show, and he reveals a lot of personal info about himself, but I don't remember him ever hinting at being bisexual (or transgender). Stern is always expressing his sexual attraction to women. AskMe has never before considered the possibility that Stern could be bisexual.
Also, Wikipedia's policy on LGBT lists is that "living persons must self-identify as LGBT," and I don't think Stern "self-identifies as LGBT."
So, am I wrong, and if not, how can I edit Wikipedia to fix this?
If you don't have facts and a source, don't edit Wikipedia.
posted by paulcole at 7:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by paulcole at 7:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If you don't have facts and a source, don't edit Wikipedia.
You can't have facts or a source for something that isn't true or is made up. Furthermore, when unsourced dubious "facts" are in articles without a reference link, that is exactly the sort of stuff that should be edited and removed on Wikipedia. And the OP just explained the facts that are available showing Wikipedia is wrong. Oy vey.
OP, just click "edit" on the top right-hand side of the page (between "read" and "view history") and then just delete [Category: LGBT people from New York] and then press save and you're done.
posted by AppleTurnover at 7:44 PM on August 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
You can't have facts or a source for something that isn't true or is made up. Furthermore, when unsourced dubious "facts" are in articles without a reference link, that is exactly the sort of stuff that should be edited and removed on Wikipedia. And the OP just explained the facts that are available showing Wikipedia is wrong. Oy vey.
OP, just click "edit" on the top right-hand side of the page (between "read" and "view history") and then just delete [Category: LGBT people from New York] and then press save and you're done.
posted by AppleTurnover at 7:44 PM on August 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
Response by poster: If you don't have facts and a source, don't edit Wikipedia.
I do have facts and sources to support the conclusion that Stern is straight. I just told you about lots of them.
posted by John Cohen at 7:45 PM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I do have facts and sources to support the conclusion that Stern is straight. I just told you about lots of them.
posted by John Cohen at 7:45 PM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
If you don't have facts and a source, you shouldn't add information to Wikipedia. It's fine to remove unsourced information from Wikipedia, especially in biographies of living persons. (See WP:BLP). The often-seen [citation needed] notation is a courtesy for information that one believes might be accurate but is currently unsourced, but there is no requirement to use it before deleting unsourced information.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:46 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:46 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
Response by poster: OK, done. I removed it from his Wikipedia page. Thanks.
posted by John Cohen at 7:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by John Cohen at 7:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I followed the proper WP:BLP procedures to have one of MeFi's Own high-profile authors included on a list of LGBT authors, and it was rejected even though I had facts and a high-quality primary source (personal statements by the author in question).
Point is, do not be surprised to see the LGBT category vandalization on Stern's page reappear with a flimsy rationalization unless you can marshal an argument that can convince a cabal of editors. Fixing the category issue may take more time and effort than suggested above.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Point is, do not be surprised to see the LGBT category vandalization on Stern's page reappear with a flimsy rationalization unless you can marshal an argument that can convince a cabal of editors. Fixing the category issue may take more time and effort than suggested above.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Point is, do not be surprised to see the LGBT category vandalization on Stern's page reappear with a flimsy rationalization unless you can marshal an argument that can convince a cabal of editors.
But as DevilsAdvocate suggested, removing unsourced information is different from adding information. Anyone who wants to label someone "LGBT" can go ahead and do that, but the burden is on them to show that the person really is LGBT.
posted by John Cohen at 8:44 PM on August 27, 2015
But as DevilsAdvocate suggested, removing unsourced information is different from adding information. Anyone who wants to label someone "LGBT" can go ahead and do that, but the burden is on them to show that the person really is LGBT.
posted by John Cohen at 8:44 PM on August 27, 2015
Back in his Miss America days Stern got way into comedic drag and confessed on the air that he was kind of enjoying all the primping and girly stuff in a non-comedic way. I couldn't see his face, so maybe he was saying it sarcastically and I misread it. But I think it was pretty straightforward, and it wasn't like he was saying he was actually transgender or anything. I used to listen to his show all the time but gave up around the time he went to satellite radio. Is it possible that at some point in recent years he's said that he is somewhere on the trans spectrum? I think it's unlikely, but every now and then Stern will surprise ya.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:27 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:27 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wikipedia *asserts* that he is LGBT. You haven't been able to find any references to this, so therefore there is no source for the assertion, and common sense says that you do not need to prove a negative.
So delete it with a clear conscience.
posted by humpy at 8:52 AM on August 28, 2015
So delete it with a clear conscience.
posted by humpy at 8:52 AM on August 28, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks. Also, as I said, Wikipedia's policy is that if the person is living, the person needs to have self-labeled as LGBT. Howard Stern is living, so it's against Wikipedia's policy to put him in any LGBT category (e.g. LGBT people from New York) without having a statement from him saying that he's LGBT; it isn't OK to apply that category based on random speculation. Wikipedia seems to be quite strict about this — there are living people who are widely believed to be LGBT, but who aren't categorized as LGBT on Wikipedia because they haven't publicly announced that they are (example).
As for the comment saying he has dressed in drag, I hadn't considered that anyone who's ever done so and enjoyed it would be categorized as LGBT. (Would you call Rudy Giuliani an "LGBT person from New York"? I don't think so.) Howard Stern has been extraordinarily public about documenting his childhood on his show — he's recently played recordings of himself as a young child, interviews with his parents, etc. — and there's been nothing about any gender transition.
posted by John Cohen at 9:18 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
As for the comment saying he has dressed in drag, I hadn't considered that anyone who's ever done so and enjoyed it would be categorized as LGBT. (Would you call Rudy Giuliani an "LGBT person from New York"? I don't think so.) Howard Stern has been extraordinarily public about documenting his childhood on his show — he's recently played recordings of himself as a young child, interviews with his parents, etc. — and there's been nothing about any gender transition.
posted by John Cohen at 9:18 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm on the board of advisors to the Wikimedia Foundation. What you did was fine. If you were feeling like you wanted a project you could go through the edits to see how added this to his profile (and see if there was a source/cite at the time) but otherwise no, you are fine.
posted by jessamyn at 9:54 AM on August 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 9:54 AM on August 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: You were justified in removing the category. Categories are supposed to be included only if there's a reliable source making that specific claim within the main body. There wasn't one for this claim. I did a bit of digging and see that an IP (anonymous user) added the category on 11 June 2015. They also added a New York Democrat category which another Wikipedia user has now removed (probably your edit showed up on their Watchlist and they dug deeper) as it also isn't supported by the article (and he did run as a Libertarian so there's good reason for thinking it isn't accurate anyway).
Plenty of IPs make valuable contributions to Wikipedia but sometimes their enthusiasm gets in the way of their lack of understanding of relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines like in this instance.
posted by bfootdav at 12:21 PM on August 28, 2015
Plenty of IPs make valuable contributions to Wikipedia but sometimes their enthusiasm gets in the way of their lack of understanding of relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines like in this instance.
posted by bfootdav at 12:21 PM on August 28, 2015
So, it doesn't seem as if Stern has ever identified as trans. Fine, remove that listing from Wikipedia.
But I wasn't saying that just because Stern has dressed in drag, he should be in the LGBT category. I'm trans myself, and I have a better idea how of this stuff works than that. Based on Stern's admitted enjoyment of drag years ago, I was wondering if he had later said something else, something more detailed, about being somewhere on the trans spectrum. In other words, I was saying that it was possible (though admittedly unlikely, as I said) that whoever put him in that category was doing so because of some later quote we didn't know about.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:02 PM on August 28, 2015
But I wasn't saying that just because Stern has dressed in drag, he should be in the LGBT category. I'm trans myself, and I have a better idea how of this stuff works than that. Based on Stern's admitted enjoyment of drag years ago, I was wondering if he had later said something else, something more detailed, about being somewhere on the trans spectrum. In other words, I was saying that it was possible (though admittedly unlikely, as I said) that whoever put him in that category was doing so because of some later quote we didn't know about.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:02 PM on August 28, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
You can edit Stern's page to remove the Category by editing the entire page (not just one section) using the "Edit" link at the top of the article, and removing "[[Category:LGBT people from New York]]" near the bottom of the page. I don't know if the change instantly propagates to the Category page, but if not it should happen whenever Wikipedia does an automatic update to the Category.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:41 PM on August 27, 2015