How do smells pass through walls?
August 10, 2015 11:04 PM Subscribe
I know it may be a ridiculous question, but I have to ask. How do smells pass through walls? I recently transferred into a new apartment (same building, different unit), and I'm getting crazy smells coming through the walls from a neighboring unit. Common sense tells me that the walls are insulated at least enough that when a neighbor makes dinner, the smell shouldn't immediately flood into my apartment unless there are gaps somewhere. The smells aren't coming through windows or doors, and the construction in my building is... weird.
I'm asking this question because I'd like to understand the possibilities of what's going on here in order to nicely nudge the building's management and maintenance into fixing it as best as is reasonably possible. They're not good at (or even interested in) investigating issues. To be fair, when my building was sold a few years ago, we went from 2 on site maintenance people to one off site guy who may also be working at another property.
A few notes:
Because of the building layout, I don't share a hallway with this particular neighbor, so it's not like smells are coming through gaps around doors. The hallway where I live doesn't smell, but open my door and oof. It sometimes reeks.
I can sometimes feel air softly flowing out of an electric outlet and nearby light switches on the wall I share with my neighbor, and the smells are coming through there. What the heck? This is a major concern since this outlet in my apartment is against the back of the neighbor's sink, and the smells sometimes smell like rubbish. YUUUCK!
I think I know how some of the smells (and sounds) pass from unit to unit. I live in a building of "loft" style apartments that was built in 2003 (new construction). They intentionally left certain details looking rough, presumably to make them look like lofts. One of those details is that some of the creases where walls meet the ceilings aren't sealed. This is sealed. This is not. I assume the walls are actually sealed deeper within the wall, but time has proven that sometimes there are gaps where sounds and smells pass right through. I experienced this in a previous unit when the building was managed by a different company. It was at the bottom of the wall. They pulled the carpet back, sealed the wall and then caulked it before laying down the carpet again. They did this in my unit and in the unit on the other side of the wall. Problem solved.
Sadly, the newer management is nowhere near as proactive about fixing this stuff - or even acknowledging that the gaps exist. SO... I'm trying to figure out...
Other than gaps like I just described... how else can sounds and especially smells travel through a wall?
Last, but not least, don't say "Move!" Rent in Portland has skyrocketed rocketed rocketed. For the time being, I have a nice place that's reasonably priced and I'm convinced the issues are fixable, but I'm clueless about these sorts of things. With your help, I'm doing my homework.
I'm asking this question because I'd like to understand the possibilities of what's going on here in order to nicely nudge the building's management and maintenance into fixing it as best as is reasonably possible. They're not good at (or even interested in) investigating issues. To be fair, when my building was sold a few years ago, we went from 2 on site maintenance people to one off site guy who may also be working at another property.
A few notes:
Because of the building layout, I don't share a hallway with this particular neighbor, so it's not like smells are coming through gaps around doors. The hallway where I live doesn't smell, but open my door and oof. It sometimes reeks.
I can sometimes feel air softly flowing out of an electric outlet and nearby light switches on the wall I share with my neighbor, and the smells are coming through there. What the heck? This is a major concern since this outlet in my apartment is against the back of the neighbor's sink, and the smells sometimes smell like rubbish. YUUUCK!
I think I know how some of the smells (and sounds) pass from unit to unit. I live in a building of "loft" style apartments that was built in 2003 (new construction). They intentionally left certain details looking rough, presumably to make them look like lofts. One of those details is that some of the creases where walls meet the ceilings aren't sealed. This is sealed. This is not. I assume the walls are actually sealed deeper within the wall, but time has proven that sometimes there are gaps where sounds and smells pass right through. I experienced this in a previous unit when the building was managed by a different company. It was at the bottom of the wall. They pulled the carpet back, sealed the wall and then caulked it before laying down the carpet again. They did this in my unit and in the unit on the other side of the wall. Problem solved.
Sadly, the newer management is nowhere near as proactive about fixing this stuff - or even acknowledging that the gaps exist. SO... I'm trying to figure out...
Other than gaps like I just described... how else can sounds and especially smells travel through a wall?
Last, but not least, don't say "Move!" Rent in Portland has skyrocketed rocketed rocketed. For the time being, I have a nice place that's reasonably priced and I'm convinced the issues are fixable, but I'm clueless about these sorts of things. With your help, I'm doing my homework.
Apartment buildings are pressurized in weird ways which affects air flow patterns. The odors are likely coming through the outlets and the cracks where the floor meets the wall. You can seal up the cracks and tape over the outlets, but that will increase pressure in other areas, like around the hardware in closets.
Probably the best thing to do is buy a HEPA air filter with a charcoal prefilter and run it continuously on low; if you run it on high, you will increase the negative pressure in your apartment and draw in more odor-carrying air currents from the neighboring units. The Honeywell air purifiers work pretty well for this purpose and aren't very expensive.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:32 PM on August 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Probably the best thing to do is buy a HEPA air filter with a charcoal prefilter and run it continuously on low; if you run it on high, you will increase the negative pressure in your apartment and draw in more odor-carrying air currents from the neighboring units. The Honeywell air purifiers work pretty well for this purpose and aren't very expensive.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:32 PM on August 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
The outlets would let such a small amount of air through. This is gaps behind the trim, between the floor and carpet/flooring, etc from shitty drywall jobs and such.
That unsealed ceiling gap is some of the most slumlord awful drywalling i've ever seen, speaking as someone who has drywalled an entire basement after learning the methods. I've lived in leaky places with drywall like that.
You want some of these, this tape, some of this(with one of these!), and before you even start any of that blast a bunch of this in that gap.
For the outlets, you want to use this to seal the actual box AND the gap around the junction box in the drywall. You'll need this too obviously. Note that fire caulk is totally code, and is the recommended method for this.
You'll need to repaint the room with the GIGANTIC GAP(seriously, what the fuck) after you do this. This will, however, work.
If every outlet and switch is leaky you might need two tubes of fire sealant but i REALLY doubt it. You only need just enough of a tiny dab to plug the little tiny holes around the wires, and the empty holes.
Kill the power at the panel before you do this. All of it. Kill the master breaker, and just do all of them at once.
On preview, you'll want this to sand your vaguely upsetting practice joint compound jobs. The existing corners look like they just caulked it and painted, so i really doubt anyone will notice since that's sooo half assed.
Put down an old sheet or some kind of drop cloth, you're going to make dust.
By the way, that is not an "intentional" gap. That looks like 3 pieces of drywall meeting up. It would be one thing if it was like, drywall and an old support beam or wood ceiling... but that really just looks like all drywall. That's called half assing it.
If it IS drywall to wood, just use great stuff, cut it down with a razor blade, caulk over it and paint. Don't use fire caulk for that, use this shit.
Chin up though, none of this is rocket science. If you were in seattle and not portland i'd come over and show you basic technique over some beers. If you get confused at any step, the top results i saw for any youtube search of say, putting in corner beads or mudding all seemed excellent.
I lived in a unit in a converted hospital for a bit over a year. I ended up having to seal the ENTIRE place up like this to keep out pests, smells, and freezing air in the winter that would blow through. It worked like a charm. Me and my dad double teamed it in an afternoon, but one person could probably do a whole small apartment in a day if you went straight to home depot out of bed, got the stuff, and just worked non stop.
posted by emptythought at 12:18 AM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
That unsealed ceiling gap is some of the most slumlord awful drywalling i've ever seen, speaking as someone who has drywalled an entire basement after learning the methods. I've lived in leaky places with drywall like that.
You want some of these, this tape, some of this(with one of these!), and before you even start any of that blast a bunch of this in that gap.
For the outlets, you want to use this to seal the actual box AND the gap around the junction box in the drywall. You'll need this too obviously. Note that fire caulk is totally code, and is the recommended method for this.
You'll need to repaint the room with the GIGANTIC GAP(seriously, what the fuck) after you do this. This will, however, work.
If every outlet and switch is leaky you might need two tubes of fire sealant but i REALLY doubt it. You only need just enough of a tiny dab to plug the little tiny holes around the wires, and the empty holes.
Kill the power at the panel before you do this. All of it. Kill the master breaker, and just do all of them at once.
On preview, you'll want this to sand your vaguely upsetting practice joint compound jobs. The existing corners look like they just caulked it and painted, so i really doubt anyone will notice since that's sooo half assed.
Put down an old sheet or some kind of drop cloth, you're going to make dust.
By the way, that is not an "intentional" gap. That looks like 3 pieces of drywall meeting up. It would be one thing if it was like, drywall and an old support beam or wood ceiling... but that really just looks like all drywall. That's called half assing it.
If it IS drywall to wood, just use great stuff, cut it down with a razor blade, caulk over it and paint. Don't use fire caulk for that, use this shit.
Chin up though, none of this is rocket science. If you were in seattle and not portland i'd come over and show you basic technique over some beers. If you get confused at any step, the top results i saw for any youtube search of say, putting in corner beads or mudding all seemed excellent.
I lived in a unit in a converted hospital for a bit over a year. I ended up having to seal the ENTIRE place up like this to keep out pests, smells, and freezing air in the winter that would blow through. It worked like a charm. Me and my dad double teamed it in an afternoon, but one person could probably do a whole small apartment in a day if you went straight to home depot out of bed, got the stuff, and just worked non stop.
posted by emptythought at 12:18 AM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
You can pretty easily test this yourself and find out exactly where the problems are, rather than having people on the internet guess. Hopefully, you have a couple exhaust fans in your apartment (kitchen and bathroom). If so, close all your windows, turn the exhaust fans on maximum, and go search out the air leaks. A stick of incense really helps you see where the air is coming in - just light it and then hold it near anything that you suspect leaks. You can plug up gaps, e.g. under a door, temporarily with towels to make it easier to find smaller leaks.
If you only have one exhaust fan, this will still probably work and if you have none, you can rig something up with a box fan in a window.
If you can feel air already through some outlets, there is definitely leakage there. This is relatively common. There are a few steps you can take for those: foam gaskets underneath the cover plates, plastic plugs in any outlets you aren't currently using, expanding foam between the box and the drywall, and possibly caulking and/or tape where the wires enter the box (only if the box is already reasonably airtight).
posted by ssg at 1:26 AM on August 11, 2015
If you only have one exhaust fan, this will still probably work and if you have none, you can rig something up with a box fan in a window.
If you can feel air already through some outlets, there is definitely leakage there. This is relatively common. There are a few steps you can take for those: foam gaskets underneath the cover plates, plastic plugs in any outlets you aren't currently using, expanding foam between the box and the drywall, and possibly caulking and/or tape where the wires enter the box (only if the box is already reasonably airtight).
posted by ssg at 1:26 AM on August 11, 2015
A stick of incense really helps you see where the air is coming in - just light it and then hold it near anything that you suspect leaks.
Smoke is, in fact, the standard way of finding these sorts of things. It's better if you can pressurize the place so that the air is flowing out, but even if not, if there's no air flow, smoke from combustion is hot, without any airflow, it's going to drift up. If there's air flowing, it'll follow that flow. If the smoke is being blown from a common wall, there's a hole there and positive pressure -- and that's blowing air from their unit (and whatever is in that unit) into yours.
Floors and ceilings can also be sources if they are hollow, or if there is ducting between them. This often happens if an building was divided into apartments -- you may have a old heating duct that's connecting the unit. If so, that duct may be open, and needs to be blocked to isolate your unit from theirs.
posted by eriko at 5:28 AM on August 11, 2015
Smoke is, in fact, the standard way of finding these sorts of things. It's better if you can pressurize the place so that the air is flowing out, but even if not, if there's no air flow, smoke from combustion is hot, without any airflow, it's going to drift up. If there's air flowing, it'll follow that flow. If the smoke is being blown from a common wall, there's a hole there and positive pressure -- and that's blowing air from their unit (and whatever is in that unit) into yours.
Floors and ceilings can also be sources if they are hollow, or if there is ducting between them. This often happens if an building was divided into apartments -- you may have a old heating duct that's connecting the unit. If so, that duct may be open, and needs to be blocked to isolate your unit from theirs.
posted by eriko at 5:28 AM on August 11, 2015
Response by poster: eriko said: "Floors and ceilings can also be sources if they are hollow, or if there is ducting between them. This often happens if an building was divided into apartments -- you may have a old heating duct that's connecting the unit."
Yikes! I hope I'm not dealing with any of that. My building was built new in 2003. It's not an old rehabbed building. That's why I'm surprised by how shoddy the construction seems to be. For example: each unit has 1 or 2 exposed concrete posts that protrude from the walls. I'm sure it's structural, but it's also meant to make the new-construction lofts look like authentic "lofts" if you know what I mean. Over the years, as the building settles, some of those concrete posts have come unattached from the walls, leaving little gaps between units. Since it's easy to see that crack between the wall and the post, management seems very willing to caulk to seal it. But I don't think they're convinced the gaps along the ceiling and floor exist. I'm pretty sure they honestly believe I'm making all of this up.
Here's an update. Maintenance came this morning and caulked along the edge across the top of the wall that I share with the unit the smells are coming from, including the part of the wall inside my closets (it's actually one double-long closet). They didn't investigate anything though, but I'd asked to have that edge caulked to block the neighbor's smells from coming into my apartment, and they did it today. Next up will be dealing with the outlets and switches, but the maintenance man said he had to order some parts, so I'm not sure when that will happen - but - one step at a time.
I really hope these two steps - caulking along the ceiling and insulating (?) the outlets will stop the smells.
The most annoying part of all of this is, I reported that the smells were really bad last week, and of course, the smells mysteriously went away by the time maintenance came today (five days later), which probably only adds to them thinking I'm making all of this up. Sadly, they're big on the idea of "I don't notice anything, thus you're wrong." My guess is that I was getting garbage smells from under the neighbor's sink, and she must have taken out her trash over the weekend. I'm just guessing though, because at this point, guessing is all I can do... along with taking steps to prevent it in the future... one step at a time.
Step one: caulking. Done! Whew.
Step two: dealing with the outlets and switches. I hope I don't have to wait too long for that.
I really wish there was a way to explain to my building's manager that the building has many horrible reviews online where people talk about the smells and noises that come through the walls. If they were to seal along the ceiling and the floor in each apartment whenever a unit becomes vacant, they'd cut down on the smells and the noise, and over time drastically improve the whole building. A lot of these apartments rent for over $1500 a month, and the building has very high turnover (partly because it's downtown - I'm told that high turnover is common downtown). The building's manager seems fantastic (she's new), but I don't think she realizes how bad the noises and smells can be, especially since most of the people who experience it probably just accept it as "this building sucks" and move out when their lease expires. The building has some really shoddy construction, but it has a lot going for it too. If you get an apartment here that's in good shape, the building is actually great. I just wish they'd be proactive about the overall health of the building. Sigh.
posted by 2oh1 at 1:38 PM on August 11, 2015
Yikes! I hope I'm not dealing with any of that. My building was built new in 2003. It's not an old rehabbed building. That's why I'm surprised by how shoddy the construction seems to be. For example: each unit has 1 or 2 exposed concrete posts that protrude from the walls. I'm sure it's structural, but it's also meant to make the new-construction lofts look like authentic "lofts" if you know what I mean. Over the years, as the building settles, some of those concrete posts have come unattached from the walls, leaving little gaps between units. Since it's easy to see that crack between the wall and the post, management seems very willing to caulk to seal it. But I don't think they're convinced the gaps along the ceiling and floor exist. I'm pretty sure they honestly believe I'm making all of this up.
Here's an update. Maintenance came this morning and caulked along the edge across the top of the wall that I share with the unit the smells are coming from, including the part of the wall inside my closets (it's actually one double-long closet). They didn't investigate anything though, but I'd asked to have that edge caulked to block the neighbor's smells from coming into my apartment, and they did it today. Next up will be dealing with the outlets and switches, but the maintenance man said he had to order some parts, so I'm not sure when that will happen - but - one step at a time.
I really hope these two steps - caulking along the ceiling and insulating (?) the outlets will stop the smells.
The most annoying part of all of this is, I reported that the smells were really bad last week, and of course, the smells mysteriously went away by the time maintenance came today (five days later), which probably only adds to them thinking I'm making all of this up. Sadly, they're big on the idea of "I don't notice anything, thus you're wrong." My guess is that I was getting garbage smells from under the neighbor's sink, and she must have taken out her trash over the weekend. I'm just guessing though, because at this point, guessing is all I can do... along with taking steps to prevent it in the future... one step at a time.
Step one: caulking. Done! Whew.
Step two: dealing with the outlets and switches. I hope I don't have to wait too long for that.
I really wish there was a way to explain to my building's manager that the building has many horrible reviews online where people talk about the smells and noises that come through the walls. If they were to seal along the ceiling and the floor in each apartment whenever a unit becomes vacant, they'd cut down on the smells and the noise, and over time drastically improve the whole building. A lot of these apartments rent for over $1500 a month, and the building has very high turnover (partly because it's downtown - I'm told that high turnover is common downtown). The building's manager seems fantastic (she's new), but I don't think she realizes how bad the noises and smells can be, especially since most of the people who experience it probably just accept it as "this building sucks" and move out when their lease expires. The building has some really shoddy construction, but it has a lot going for it too. If you get an apartment here that's in good shape, the building is actually great. I just wish they'd be proactive about the overall health of the building. Sigh.
posted by 2oh1 at 1:38 PM on August 11, 2015
Response by poster: Update #2: It looks like caulking solved 95% of the problem, and I'm guessing that insulating the outlets will solve it completely. Whew!
posted by 2oh1 at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by 2oh1 at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
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Other than stuffing insulation in the wall and sealing around the plates, the only way to deal with this is to keep your apartment at a slightly higher air pressure than theirs. Blow air in, not out and the air flow will reverse.
posted by wierdo at 11:23 PM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]