You convert religion– we drive?
August 9, 2015 6:48 PM Subscribe
My partner and Ex had a kid. The Ex moved out of the city a number of years ago, living in various other places. Kid has always lived in this city. When he exercises visitation, Ex drives into the city to pick up the kid on Saturdays, drops the kid off on Sundays. Currently, the drive to where Ex lives is 2 hrs, each way. Ex is remarrying and converting religions and as such says he will no longer be able to drive on Saturdays to pick up the kid. Ex wants us to drive the kid to him. We find this nuts, and think the onus is on the Ex to figure out a way to transport the kid. Ex is not interested in exploring alternative visitation plans not involving Saturday driving, he wants the existing schedule to continue. Location – Ontario.
You are not my lawyer- I’m not asking for legal advice, but what’s your take?
Ex wants us to drive the kid to him. We find this nuts,
You're currently making your Ex drive 2 hours, twice a weekend, for visitation, while you don't drive at all. Do you find this nuts?
The proposal splits the work evenly between the two of you. Sounds pretty fair to me.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 6:55 PM on August 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
You're currently making your Ex drive 2 hours, twice a weekend, for visitation, while you don't drive at all. Do you find this nuts?
The proposal splits the work evenly between the two of you. Sounds pretty fair to me.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 6:55 PM on August 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
First, I totally agree with Iris Gambol: I'd do whatever is best for your child in this situation.
So you'd drive your kid to the ex on Saturday and your ex would bring the kid back on Sunday? That sounds completely fair to be honest. It sounds like they were the one doing you the favor initially, and now they're looking for more parity? (I mean, the whole thing is unfair, of course, but you're the lucky one who gets to spend the majority of the week with your child!) Another alternative might be each driving an hour on both days to meet in the middle? In any case, what they're asking sounds completely reasonable.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:57 PM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
So you'd drive your kid to the ex on Saturday and your ex would bring the kid back on Sunday? That sounds completely fair to be honest. It sounds like they were the one doing you the favor initially, and now they're looking for more parity? (I mean, the whole thing is unfair, of course, but you're the lucky one who gets to spend the majority of the week with your child!) Another alternative might be each driving an hour on both days to meet in the middle? In any case, what they're asking sounds completely reasonable.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:57 PM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Do you have a legal agreement right now about visitation? What does it say?
How old is the kid? Is public transportation an option if there are people to drop off and pick up the kid? I'd be much more inclined to push on whatever the existing arrangement is than decide to add four hours of driving to my Saturday because of a series of choices the ex made (moving out of the city, remarrying and converting).
I know that people disagree on whether religion and religious observances are a choice, but this seems to be a case of balancing the priorities of the Ex's new set of choices with your existing setup. Both people should be prepared to make compromises for the child but you accommodating the Ex's choices here seems like it's more compromise on your part and less on theirs. But really I'd be pointing to whatever legal arrangement is in place since they may not get to just decide it's your turn for driving.
posted by jessamyn at 7:01 PM on August 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
How old is the kid? Is public transportation an option if there are people to drop off and pick up the kid? I'd be much more inclined to push on whatever the existing arrangement is than decide to add four hours of driving to my Saturday because of a series of choices the ex made (moving out of the city, remarrying and converting).
I know that people disagree on whether religion and religious observances are a choice, but this seems to be a case of balancing the priorities of the Ex's new set of choices with your existing setup. Both people should be prepared to make compromises for the child but you accommodating the Ex's choices here seems like it's more compromise on your part and less on theirs. But really I'd be pointing to whatever legal arrangement is in place since they may not get to just decide it's your turn for driving.
posted by jessamyn at 7:01 PM on August 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Some comments for clarity and perhaps perspective for folks who have not experienced visitation/access situations. First, if you have visitation with your child (at least in Ontario), and you choose to move outside of the city in which they live, the burden is on you to manage transportation. Our current legal agreement states that Ex pick up and return the child.
Second, Ex is and has been a challenging person to negotiate with, and has demonstrated what could charitably be described as inconsistent interest in visiting and supporting kid. Lastly, obviously, we want what is best for kid – we will find a way to make this work, though at this point in time, alternatives we’ve proposed do not seem welcome.
posted by walkinginsunshine at 7:09 PM on August 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
Second, Ex is and has been a challenging person to negotiate with, and has demonstrated what could charitably be described as inconsistent interest in visiting and supporting kid. Lastly, obviously, we want what is best for kid – we will find a way to make this work, though at this point in time, alternatives we’ve proposed do not seem welcome.
posted by walkinginsunshine at 7:09 PM on August 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
First, if you have visitation with your child (at least in Ontario), and you choose to move outside of the city in which they live, the burden is on you to manage transportation. Our current legal agreement states that Ex pick up and return the child.
You probably don't want to push too hard on what the legal agreement is, considering that the Ex is making a religious conversion. The courts look on that sort of thing muuuch more favorably than, say, "My work makes it tough for me to get there on Saturdays."
posted by Etrigan at 7:16 PM on August 9, 2015
You probably don't want to push too hard on what the legal agreement is, considering that the Ex is making a religious conversion. The courts look on that sort of thing muuuch more favorably than, say, "My work makes it tough for me to get there on Saturdays."
posted by Etrigan at 7:16 PM on August 9, 2015
It is best for your kid to see dad. Even if dad is difficult. Even if dad is inconsistent (and in fact, you sharing the driving burden is likely to make dad more consistent, since he won't have to do so much work to visit kid). Even if dad is a jerk, or dad has made things difficult, or dad has made life choices you wish he hadn't.
Do the driving. Do it happily and gratefully, since you get kid the overwhelming majority of the time. Do it even if you don't have to. And do it without ever once letting kid get any sense that it is anything less than your pleasure to do because you love kid and want kid to be happy.
Eventually, kid will get old enough not to want to be out of town and away from friends every weekend. Then you can renegotiate visitation in kid's best interests. This is a temporary thing. But for now, do it, and do it with joy.
posted by decathecting at 7:22 PM on August 9, 2015 [34 favorites]
Do the driving. Do it happily and gratefully, since you get kid the overwhelming majority of the time. Do it even if you don't have to. And do it without ever once letting kid get any sense that it is anything less than your pleasure to do because you love kid and want kid to be happy.
Eventually, kid will get old enough not to want to be out of town and away from friends every weekend. Then you can renegotiate visitation in kid's best interests. This is a temporary thing. But for now, do it, and do it with joy.
posted by decathecting at 7:22 PM on August 9, 2015 [34 favorites]
If you don't do this, the end result is that kid won't see dad as frequently, if at all. Especially if dad is as inconsistent and difficult as you say, dad will use this as an excuse not to see kid as frequently, if at all. Kid will be sad. Kid will suffer. Kid's life will be worse. What's legally mandated (or even what's fair to you and your partner) shouldn't enter into the decision at all.
posted by decathecting at 7:25 PM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 7:25 PM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe I'm being really overly cynical, but I almost see this as an attempt to significantly cut down on the visitations now that he's getting remarried and this way he can make you the bad guys.
posted by whoaali at 7:27 PM on August 9, 2015 [50 favorites]
posted by whoaali at 7:27 PM on August 9, 2015 [50 favorites]
If your ex is interested in altering the custody arrangement you have, and you do not wish to alter it, then your ex is the one who's going to want to contact his lawyer to make alterations. It can be done, but not by a handshake. This is your kid here, don't bet your kid's future on a handshake agreement that isn't codified by the courts and your custody agreement.
It's not unreasonable to contact your ex and say, "If you'd like to alter our custody arrangement, please have your lawyer contact mine and we can hash it out. Until then, I need you to abide by it."
I respectfully disagree with posters above who say that the most important thing is for the kid to see dad. The most important thing is for your kid to have a good life that doesn't cause him/her emotional pain and suffering. That might mean a new custody agreement. Not knowing the age of the kid (or the gender) makes this a tough call, but don't assume that the best course of action is to make your own life unmanageable in order to accommodate your ex.
posted by juniperesque at 7:38 PM on August 9, 2015 [66 favorites]
It's not unreasonable to contact your ex and say, "If you'd like to alter our custody arrangement, please have your lawyer contact mine and we can hash it out. Until then, I need you to abide by it."
I respectfully disagree with posters above who say that the most important thing is for the kid to see dad. The most important thing is for your kid to have a good life that doesn't cause him/her emotional pain and suffering. That might mean a new custody agreement. Not knowing the age of the kid (or the gender) makes this a tough call, but don't assume that the best course of action is to make your own life unmanageable in order to accommodate your ex.
posted by juniperesque at 7:38 PM on August 9, 2015 [66 favorites]
Eventually, kid will get old enough not to want to be out of town and away from friends every weekend. Then you can renegotiate visitation in kid's best interests. This is a temporary thing. But for now, do it, and do it with joy.
nthing this. It won't be long before the kid doesn't want to spend weekends away but at the same time won't necessarily appreciate the longer term consequences of staying in city with friends (and less time with Dad). For now, as much time as kid can spend with Dad the better especially given that with the remarriage the kid will likely have a new family (even if just Dad and new spouse and their new traditions) to get to know. Even if it's a pain for you guys - and I can appreciate that huge chunk of driving time is not welcome - it won't be forever or even really that long but is an investment in kid's future.
posted by kitten magic at 7:39 PM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
nthing this. It won't be long before the kid doesn't want to spend weekends away but at the same time won't necessarily appreciate the longer term consequences of staying in city with friends (and less time with Dad). For now, as much time as kid can spend with Dad the better especially given that with the remarriage the kid will likely have a new family (even if just Dad and new spouse and their new traditions) to get to know. Even if it's a pain for you guys - and I can appreciate that huge chunk of driving time is not welcome - it won't be forever or even really that long but is an investment in kid's future.
posted by kitten magic at 7:39 PM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Second, Ex is and has been a challenging person to negotiate with, and has demonstrated what could charitably be described as inconsistent interest in visiting and supporting kid.
Raising my son with an ex who could, at the best of times, be described as challenging, I feel you here.
That said, my overarching guiding principle throughout everything was Be The Better Human at all times. It was hard, and I often failed.
Still, my son is 20 now, and he calls me and talks to me and asks me for advice. I don't think he's spoken to his mom in a couple of months, and largely tries to avoid her. He has thanked me often, though, for doing everything I could to let him have his childhood with her, because his adulthood with her has been so difficult.
So... I dunno. I think you should drive the kid to see dad, and suck it up and deal with it. But, you know, you want permission to wear just the minimum amount of flair. You don't need that from us - the law says what the least you must do is - you can just do that if you want to be the adequate human.
I'm not being snarky. I totally know what you are going through. But as my Grandpa used to say - Taking the high road means rising above the challenge.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:44 PM on August 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
Raising my son with an ex who could, at the best of times, be described as challenging, I feel you here.
That said, my overarching guiding principle throughout everything was Be The Better Human at all times. It was hard, and I often failed.
Still, my son is 20 now, and he calls me and talks to me and asks me for advice. I don't think he's spoken to his mom in a couple of months, and largely tries to avoid her. He has thanked me often, though, for doing everything I could to let him have his childhood with her, because his adulthood with her has been so difficult.
So... I dunno. I think you should drive the kid to see dad, and suck it up and deal with it. But, you know, you want permission to wear just the minimum amount of flair. You don't need that from us - the law says what the least you must do is - you can just do that if you want to be the adequate human.
I'm not being snarky. I totally know what you are going through. But as my Grandpa used to say - Taking the high road means rising above the challenge.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:44 PM on August 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
Hi. I'm a kid of divorce here (and a married parent, too) and I agree that it is totally reasonable to put the onus on Ex. He is the one causing the problems and he needs to be the one to fix them, or initiate legal proceedings to produce a new agreement. Jumping to his whims is not your job. (I might think differently if this was all happening in the same city, but when he chose to move 2 hours away, he forfeited his right to your accomodation.)
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:46 PM on August 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:46 PM on August 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
Nthing this is a ploy to make you into the bad guys here.
Direct EX to contact his lawyer to contact yours if the agreement will change. That's the businesslike way to handle this. Nthing don't change the visitation details over a handshake.
posted by jbenben at 7:47 PM on August 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Direct EX to contact his lawyer to contact yours if the agreement will change. That's the businesslike way to handle this. Nthing don't change the visitation details over a handshake.
posted by jbenben at 7:47 PM on August 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Is there a relative or other responsible party who could be paid by Ex to transport the child? The travel involved here is non-trivial labour and expense. I agree with "the onus is on Ex."
If Ex is interested in making it difficult for Child to visit him, it might not actually be in Child's best interests, as implied above, to alter the existing agreement to make life easier for Ex.
There's too little information here, but I'm a bit stuck on the "Ex moved out of Child's city" part. Child does not sound like a priority for Ex. It is good to be friendly co-parents and to facilitate good relations with a parent who treats the kid as a priority. When the kid isn't a priority for the other parent, going out of one's way to facilitate half-assed parenting can end pretty badly. Again, too little info, but I think calls that not taking on this much of a transportation burden for somebody who has repeatedly chose to make access difficult are not in the kid's best interests are perhaps out of line here.
posted by kmennie at 8:04 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
If Ex is interested in making it difficult for Child to visit him, it might not actually be in Child's best interests, as implied above, to alter the existing agreement to make life easier for Ex.
There's too little information here, but I'm a bit stuck on the "Ex moved out of Child's city" part. Child does not sound like a priority for Ex. It is good to be friendly co-parents and to facilitate good relations with a parent who treats the kid as a priority. When the kid isn't a priority for the other parent, going out of one's way to facilitate half-assed parenting can end pretty badly. Again, too little info, but I think calls that not taking on this much of a transportation burden for somebody who has repeatedly chose to make access difficult are not in the kid's best interests are perhaps out of line here.
posted by kmennie at 8:04 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
I agree you put this back to EX getting their lawyer involved. A compromise you can offer is to drive quarter or halfway to meet someone you and your EX agree is trustworthy to drive the rest of the way to the EX. If it ever goes before arbitration you will appear balanced and credible for offering alternatives while the EX will look loopy for refusing to any compromises on their position.
posted by saucysault at 8:09 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by saucysault at 8:09 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
And there is a hierarchy of rights that ontario judges look at when someone claims they can not do something due to religious beliefs - especially someone that converted. It isn't a trump card that then compels you to drive just because they say so. (I dunno why everyone is saying Jewish - I was thinking Amish, myself).
posted by saucysault at 8:12 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by saucysault at 8:12 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are probably 5 different things he could do to make this easier (kid travels on Friday; any of the other suggestions; kid goes twice a month instead of weekly). Given that the ex is completely inflexible, I think, just go to straight to mediation to hash out the details in a fair and consensual way.
Oh, but for a take, yeah, I think he's making a point about something, and it's got nothing to do with his religion or his child. (As far as what's best for the kid, impossible to say from the question.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:28 PM on August 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Oh, but for a take, yeah, I think he's making a point about something, and it's got nothing to do with his religion or his child. (As far as what's best for the kid, impossible to say from the question.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:28 PM on August 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
It is best for your kid to see dad. Even if dad is difficult. Even if dad is inconsistent (and in fact, you sharing the driving burden is likely to make dad more consistent, since he won't have to do so much work to visit kid). Even if dad is a jerk, or dad has made things difficult, or dad has made life choices you wish he hadn't.
This is so, so, so not universally true. If dad isn't consistent with visitation or makes things hard, I can't see any reason why mom should do the heavy lifting for him. The kid will notice dad isn't interested, if she hasn't already, and she won't appreciate either parent for forcing unwanted contact.
posted by Mavri at 8:30 PM on August 9, 2015 [22 favorites]
This is so, so, so not universally true. If dad isn't consistent with visitation or makes things hard, I can't see any reason why mom should do the heavy lifting for him. The kid will notice dad isn't interested, if she hasn't already, and she won't appreciate either parent for forcing unwanted contact.
posted by Mavri at 8:30 PM on August 9, 2015 [22 favorites]
Whatever agreement you come up with, make sure there is a very clear definitive way of communicating cancellations. Something that includes an acknowledgement. You don't want to be in a situation where you drive 2 hours only to be told he cancelled visitation, don't you read your texts?
posted by Sophont at 9:24 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Sophont at 9:24 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't know where you got the idea that the burden is on the one who moves away. That may be in the agreement you have right now, but it is not a law in Ontario. My husband's ex moved away, with the kid, and he had to fight to get her to share the transportation. Their current arrangement stipulates 2 visits where she comes all the way here, two where we go all the way there, and several others where they both meet up in a city halfway between.
This is just to warn you that you may not want to push this one. A judge is very likely to tell you that sharing the driving seems perfectly fair. All you are going to do is sink money into lawyer bills here.
As a further anecdata, I was the kid in this scenario too. I remember when my dad moved away and how my mom used to refuse to come and get me at the airport because it was his responsibility to get me home. Both at the time and in hindsight, that strikes me as more about her feelings than mine :-)
When karma found me a guy with a kid, that has been one of my lessons to him. Whatever the arrangement is, whether kid lives there or here or on the moon, he always has the choice not to be That Guy, and I think his kid is better off for it.
posted by JoannaC at 9:26 PM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is just to warn you that you may not want to push this one. A judge is very likely to tell you that sharing the driving seems perfectly fair. All you are going to do is sink money into lawyer bills here.
As a further anecdata, I was the kid in this scenario too. I remember when my dad moved away and how my mom used to refuse to come and get me at the airport because it was his responsibility to get me home. Both at the time and in hindsight, that strikes me as more about her feelings than mine :-)
When karma found me a guy with a kid, that has been one of my lessons to him. Whatever the arrangement is, whether kid lives there or here or on the moon, he always has the choice not to be That Guy, and I think his kid is better off for it.
posted by JoannaC at 9:26 PM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
What's best for the kid? is my take.
Not just this, but what does the kid want? Is she or he old enough to have rational preferences? If so, I'd let that be part of the decision making process.
posted by Candleman at 9:33 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not just this, but what does the kid want? Is she or he old enough to have rational preferences? If so, I'd let that be part of the decision making process.
posted by Candleman at 9:33 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
It may not be in child's best interest for the inconsistent - and therefore unreliable - dad to remain in child's life in the first place.
The emotional abuse that sometimes occurs from a parent like that - even when there aren't drug, alcohol, or physical abuse issues - is something children are far better off without.
Not saying that is the case in this situation, but felt a need to chime in as a counterpoint to those believe that a difficult relationship is better than none.
posted by stormyteal at 10:01 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
The emotional abuse that sometimes occurs from a parent like that - even when there aren't drug, alcohol, or physical abuse issues - is something children are far better off without.
Not saying that is the case in this situation, but felt a need to chime in as a counterpoint to those believe that a difficult relationship is better than none.
posted by stormyteal at 10:01 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ex is asking you to cover for him materially deprioritizing Kid in his life. My personal opinion is that you do Kid no favors by facilitating Ex in being an even more halfassed parent. My advice is to insist on abiding by the terms of the current agreement.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:19 PM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:19 PM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
I get that Ex is possibly being flat-out manipulative and that the drive is a big chunk of time, but...forget why Ex is doing this and what he thinks he's getting out of it. Assuming this isn't an insurmountably onerous financial burden, this is really a big potential blessing in disguise in terms of your and Partner's time with the kiddo.
Car trips are a safe space of communication magic.
It is so much easier to talk about embarrassing, awkward, or difficult topics when Grownup and Kid are in this weird intimate space of a car where you're stuck with each other but you both can look at the road instead of each other, and don't have to control the expression on your face because you can just look out the window, and you're are somewhat physically separated but can reach out and squeeze a hand if appropriate. If conversation gets too heavy or overwhelming, the radio/iPod selection can be a lighthearted natural distraction and/or natural excuse for not-talking. Or the music can be a catalyst for discussion.
I repeat: Disregard why the Ex is engineering this. Take the high road, and get serious quality time with the kid in the process.
posted by desuetude at 11:27 PM on August 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
Car trips are a safe space of communication magic.
It is so much easier to talk about embarrassing, awkward, or difficult topics when Grownup and Kid are in this weird intimate space of a car where you're stuck with each other but you both can look at the road instead of each other, and don't have to control the expression on your face because you can just look out the window, and you're are somewhat physically separated but can reach out and squeeze a hand if appropriate. If conversation gets too heavy or overwhelming, the radio/iPod selection can be a lighthearted natural distraction and/or natural excuse for not-talking. Or the music can be a catalyst for discussion.
I repeat: Disregard why the Ex is engineering this. Take the high road, and get serious quality time with the kid in the process.
posted by desuetude at 11:27 PM on August 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
Consider having the kid spend every second weekend with Dad. Dad then gets child from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 11:48 PM on August 9, 2015
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 11:48 PM on August 9, 2015
Popping back in to remind OP that handling this LEGAL AGREEMENT in a LEGAL AND BUSSINESSLIKE FASHION is the way to go right now. Just be appropriate and bussinesslike. Legal agreements exist when folks entertwined can't agree easily. This is one of those times this available filter is useful.
That said
As a City Person, driving distances is my anxiety. For example, I would not be keen to have my child on the road for 2 hrs on a Friday evening because there are more drunk driving accidents during that time. Additionally, as a person with divorced parents, it really does seem this EX is less concerned with spending quality time with their child. I know if I had to drive 2 hrs anywhere as a City Person, I would be white knuckling it almost the whole way and would be telling my child in the backseat booster not to talk to me or distract me from navigating traffic. Actually, I do this with my own child on surface streets with high pedestrian traffic because I am trying not to run over some idiot not paying attention to the road and streets.
The Ex made their choices. The law asks that they now mitigate these choices.
Unless the child is deaf, dumb, and blind - they know already the Ex parent is not keen on their company. Forcing that issue is not emotionally healthy. The in situ defacto primary care adults here do a better job of parenting the child by responding to reality. Smoothing over another's faults never helps the minors involved.
This is a business and legal transaction. Default on that. Counseling for the child if the situation is painful for them. EX doesn't prioritize Child. That's the end and beginning. This is established.
Sorry to be so blunt.
posted by jbenben at 12:09 AM on August 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
That said
As a City Person, driving distances is my anxiety. For example, I would not be keen to have my child on the road for 2 hrs on a Friday evening because there are more drunk driving accidents during that time. Additionally, as a person with divorced parents, it really does seem this EX is less concerned with spending quality time with their child. I know if I had to drive 2 hrs anywhere as a City Person, I would be white knuckling it almost the whole way and would be telling my child in the backseat booster not to talk to me or distract me from navigating traffic. Actually, I do this with my own child on surface streets with high pedestrian traffic because I am trying not to run over some idiot not paying attention to the road and streets.
The Ex made their choices. The law asks that they now mitigate these choices.
Unless the child is deaf, dumb, and blind - they know already the Ex parent is not keen on their company. Forcing that issue is not emotionally healthy. The in situ defacto primary care adults here do a better job of parenting the child by responding to reality. Smoothing over another's faults never helps the minors involved.
This is a business and legal transaction. Default on that. Counseling for the child if the situation is painful for them. EX doesn't prioritize Child. That's the end and beginning. This is established.
Sorry to be so blunt.
posted by jbenben at 12:09 AM on August 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
It was Ex's choice to move two hours away, it's Ex's choice to convert to a religion that forbids driving on his current visitation days, and it's Ex's choice yet again to insist on retaining the current visitation schedule ---- therefore when & how Ex sees the kid is ALSO totally Ex's choice.
And yes, what does Kid think about this? After all, it sounds like keeping the current visitation schedule means Kid would be spending most of his/her time with dad going to functions at this new religion's house of worship, rather than one-on-one with that dad.
posted by easily confused at 1:23 AM on August 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
And yes, what does Kid think about this? After all, it sounds like keeping the current visitation schedule means Kid would be spending most of his/her time with dad going to functions at this new religion's house of worship, rather than one-on-one with that dad.
posted by easily confused at 1:23 AM on August 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
Step parent here. We would probably make the drive -- for kid's sake. (Except when we have weekend plans away, or early Saturday morning plans.) We would also, probably, ask for the federal travel rate (we're on the U.S.) because we frankly wouldn't have the money every week, and that's wear and tear on the car.
We would all go together, because we like each other and having family time (1 kid) and we would put on our happy faces, maybe all learn Spanish from a podcast or alternate who chooses the music. Maybe after a year, we could listen to books on tape, in Spanish!
And then the Mr and I would lock it up in the Grudge Jar, where we keep the list of eye rolls and headaches caused by the other parent. We fantasize that we will open this jar up and share it with the kid when she is 18 and we no longer have a legal relationship with the other parent, but we probably won't. We'll be too free and happy to want to go back over that list.
We'd be sure to repeat the request in full excruciating detail back to the other parent "you mean you'd like me to devote 4 hours of the only 48 I get kid-free, to driving? You're kid-free 120 hours per week those weeks, by the way.
How many weekends are we talking about, in a year? We'd do it every weekend, if we had to, I suspect.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:37 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
We would all go together, because we like each other and having family time (1 kid) and we would put on our happy faces, maybe all learn Spanish from a podcast or alternate who chooses the music. Maybe after a year, we could listen to books on tape, in Spanish!
And then the Mr and I would lock it up in the Grudge Jar, where we keep the list of eye rolls and headaches caused by the other parent. We fantasize that we will open this jar up and share it with the kid when she is 18 and we no longer have a legal relationship with the other parent, but we probably won't. We'll be too free and happy to want to go back over that list.
We'd be sure to repeat the request in full excruciating detail back to the other parent "you mean you'd like me to devote 4 hours of the only 48 I get kid-free, to driving? You're kid-free 120 hours per week those weeks, by the way.
How many weekends are we talking about, in a year? We'd do it every weekend, if we had to, I suspect.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:37 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Part of doing what is in the best interest of the child is taking care of your own needs (as individuals and as a couple). If taking four hours out of each weekend to transport your child to the ex is going to make your life less manageable in other areas, then doing so probably isn't in the best interest of the child. I'd suggest sitting down with your partner and figuring out how much time each a month would feel manageable for the two of you to do the driving and then having your partner say to the ex something along the lines of:
The best we can do right now is commit to driving Kid to you one Saturday per month. Perhaps the first Saturday of each month or something similar? Kid really loves spending time with you (if this is true), so hopefully you can still travel to the city on Sundays to spend the day with him/her here. If at any point you decide that you are interested in discussing alternative visitation plans, we remain open to that.
posted by TheCavorter at 7:38 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
The best we can do right now is commit to driving Kid to you one Saturday per month. Perhaps the first Saturday of each month or something similar? Kid really loves spending time with you (if this is true), so hopefully you can still travel to the city on Sundays to spend the day with him/her here. If at any point you decide that you are interested in discussing alternative visitation plans, we remain open to that.
posted by TheCavorter at 7:38 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry, but the Ex forcing a 4 hour chunk, every week, or your time for a choice that they made (for which they are supposed to bear the burder), is not at all reasonable for it to impact your partner. If you want to be nice, offer to *attempt* to schedule that drive about once a month based upon your flexibility, and make it clear that you'll expect your own medium-weight concessions for this.
I think it's all well and good to be reasonable for the interests of the kid, but that 4 hours of dedicated time every Saturday is going to wear you down, and impact your lives in a big way. I think you need some major concessions from your ex, in writing in exchange for something of these magnitude. I'm not sure if the concessions should be extra custody for holidays, extra money for support (or less money your partner is paying for support, depending on how that worked), etc...
I also agree that this might be your partner's ex's way of trying to setup your partner for being the "bad guy" relating to less visitation just as they're setting up a new family. Ask for something unreasonable, and then it's all the non-giver's fault.
What happens when the ex moves another hour away now that you've set the stage of driving? What happens when the ex can only have the child arrive within a narrow window? This is a giant monkey (possibly a pregnant monkey) that's being asked to be attached to your partner's back - do not walk into this lightly.
This isn't something minor that can just be handwaved "for the interests of the child." Is it in the best interests of the child for them to realize that your partner's ex still has control over your partner? Additionally, with the partner's ex starting a new family, this is getting a bad start to potential future negotiations. I strongly suggest lawyer, and hold to the fact that this entirely of the Ex's making and that this needs serious renegotiation.
posted by nobeagle at 10:11 AM on August 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think it's all well and good to be reasonable for the interests of the kid, but that 4 hours of dedicated time every Saturday is going to wear you down, and impact your lives in a big way. I think you need some major concessions from your ex, in writing in exchange for something of these magnitude. I'm not sure if the concessions should be extra custody for holidays, extra money for support (or less money your partner is paying for support, depending on how that worked), etc...
I also agree that this might be your partner's ex's way of trying to setup your partner for being the "bad guy" relating to less visitation just as they're setting up a new family. Ask for something unreasonable, and then it's all the non-giver's fault.
What happens when the ex moves another hour away now that you've set the stage of driving? What happens when the ex can only have the child arrive within a narrow window? This is a giant monkey (possibly a pregnant monkey) that's being asked to be attached to your partner's back - do not walk into this lightly.
This isn't something minor that can just be handwaved "for the interests of the child." Is it in the best interests of the child for them to realize that your partner's ex still has control over your partner? Additionally, with the partner's ex starting a new family, this is getting a bad start to potential future negotiations. I strongly suggest lawyer, and hold to the fact that this entirely of the Ex's making and that this needs serious renegotiation.
posted by nobeagle at 10:11 AM on August 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Can you put the kid on a bus?
posted by SassHat at 12:06 PM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by SassHat at 12:06 PM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
My take, as the kid of a parent who simply didn't care about making any travel arrangements for visitation when they moved out of the city, is: this is up to Ex. If Ex wishes to continue the same schedule, it is up to Ex to rearrange their life to make it work. Kids first.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:08 PM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:08 PM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Like, "I have decided to make a change to my life and I expect you to do everything I have chosen not to do anymore" is this GIANT BLINKING RED NEON SIGN that says "my selfish desires are more important than my child."
Contact a lawyer (ideally whoever drafted the agreement) to ensure you're on sound legal footing and then say "nope. You are responsible for making arrangements to see your own child. If you refuse to make such arrangements, that's on you. Not us. We are open to negotiating a different visitation arrangement, we are not open to driving for eight hours every weekend to fulfill your obligations."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:13 PM on August 10, 2015 [12 favorites]
Contact a lawyer (ideally whoever drafted the agreement) to ensure you're on sound legal footing and then say "nope. You are responsible for making arrangements to see your own child. If you refuse to make such arrangements, that's on you. Not us. We are open to negotiating a different visitation arrangement, we are not open to driving for eight hours every weekend to fulfill your obligations."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:13 PM on August 10, 2015 [12 favorites]
Is kid old enough to take a train or bus?
posted by Jacqueline at 8:14 AM on August 11, 2015
posted by Jacqueline at 8:14 AM on August 11, 2015
Even if the kid could take a bus or train (if they're old enough to do so on their own or if there even is available busses/trains), there's still the question of how is the ex planning to pick that child up from the bus or train station.
I'm sorry, but no --- making the custodial parent do two four-hour round trips weekly (one to drop off the kid, one to pick up) just because it's what, more convenient for Ex? Because Ex thinks the world ought to revolve around his choices and his decisions, and screw everyone else? No, if Ex wants to see his kid he can either come get the kid himself or he can make a legal, written request for a change in the visitation schedule.
This all sounds more like Ex is (still, perhaps?) trying to control and manipulate both the child and the child's mother than anything else.
posted by easily confused at 5:17 AM on August 12, 2015
I'm sorry, but no --- making the custodial parent do two four-hour round trips weekly (one to drop off the kid, one to pick up) just because it's what, more convenient for Ex? Because Ex thinks the world ought to revolve around his choices and his decisions, and screw everyone else? No, if Ex wants to see his kid he can either come get the kid himself or he can make a legal, written request for a change in the visitation schedule.
This all sounds more like Ex is (still, perhaps?) trying to control and manipulate both the child and the child's mother than anything else.
posted by easily confused at 5:17 AM on August 12, 2015
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posted by Iris Gambol at 6:51 PM on August 9, 2015 [21 favorites]