I get frustrated. He shuts down. It gets worse. Please help.
August 8, 2015 9:43 PM Subscribe
After a minor argument grew into a very stressful situation for both of us today, my boyfriend and I finally figured out a few things that have been contributing to a destructive pattern of behavior (basically, my emotions stress him out, he shuts down, I become more frustrated because he is unavailable to me). At first I felt empowered by our breakthroughs. Now I feel discouraged. Please help.
This is what we learned today: If I express even subtle anger, sadness, frustration, etc., my boyfriend perceives me as VERY angry/sad/frustrated and gets extremely stressed out. He acknowledged that he is likely overperceiving my negative emotions (I definitely agree) and has a tendency to do so when he really cares about someone. He then "freezes." At that point, he either can't think--his mind goes blank--or he experiences a feeling of "too many thoughts at once." He is effectively rendered unable to articulate a response and will quickly end the conversation. He may then cut off communication with me for several hours, while I wonder nervously what went wrong. He explained that, during this period of silence, he is totally stressed out and feels unable to do anything. Basically, when I express negative emotions, he perceives it as the "end of the world; it's all over," shuts down, and needs time (sometimes, a lot of time) to "prepare a response."
He further explained that, ever since he was a kid, he has experienced something similar in other stressful situations. If, for example, a teacher called on him in class when he wasn't expecting it, he would freeze and say nothing. He needed more time to prepare a response. His teachers often became frustrated with him. They knew he was highly intelligent, so why couldn't he just say the answer that they knew was in his head?
Today was the first time my boyfriend has talked about this. In many ways, the conversation was a breakthrough for us because, until now, I had no idea what was causing this pattern of behavior. From my perspective, my boyfriend's behavior seemed anywhere from bizarre to very inconsiderate, though he's usually a very sweet and considerate person. And I couldn't understand why he seemed to feel that I was the one doing something inappropriate (e.g., today he apparently thought I was extremely angry, when in fact, I was only mildly frustrated that he had decided not to come visit me and didn't/couldn't provide an explanation (as it turns out, he needed to focus on his work but couldn't tell me that when I asked him because he froze at possible signs of anger in my voice)).
Hoping to come up with a constructive suggestion, I told my boyfriend that, from now on, I will try to tell him "I'm just a little frustrated..." or "I'm seriously concerned..." etc. to try to help make obvious the magnitude of my emotions. In exchange, I asked that he believe me (e.g., if I say I'm just a little frustrated, don't assume I'm really frustrated). He seemed to feel good about this suggestion, and I felt empowered by it. I also asked him to tell me if he feels like he needs to take some time to get his thoughts together (e.g., "I need some time to think - can we talk in a few hours?"), rather than disappearing. He wasn't sure he'd be able to do that when he feels "frozen/shut down," but he said he will make an effort.
I was feeling good at that point, but then he mentioned that he was thinking of seeing a therapist about our relationship, in part because we "argue all the time," and it prevents him from getting his work done. Though I encouraged him to see a therapist (I'd like to do the same), I was surprised by his comment because, from my perspective, we argue hardly at all. I asked him how often he thought a typical couple argues. He said "one or two times a year."
And then I felt really deflated. I'm a very conflict-averse person, but I still can't imagine a relationship in which my partner and I only argue once or twice a year.
Tonight, something actually quite upsetting happened. A guy tried to break in to my apartment complex and badly frightened my neighbor/friend (cops came; it's fine now). I didn't call my boyfriend because I was too afraid that I had already stressed him out too much today, and if I'm not careful, he's going to start to associate me with stress and the negative impact on his work productivity.
I need to be able to express my emotions freely (albeit not carelessly) and am now afraid that this will drive my boyfriend away from me precisely when I most need his support. I want to be constructive but just don't really know how to deal with this. Has anyone dealt with something similar (as either partner)? Suggestions? Insights?
Finally, I don't want to make too much of this, but I suspect that my boyfriend is on the autism spectrum (I'm not), for a variety of reasons that I won't discuss here (and no, no formal diagnosis). So far, I've been looking at it like this: Any two people have to work hard to figure out how to manage their differences if they want to have a good relationship; in our case, the differences just happen to lie in somewhat different places than what I'm accustomed to. I mention it only because I think it might be contributing to the problems we're having, and some of you out there who are on the spectrum or have a partner who is might be particularly well-equipped to help.
This is what we learned today: If I express even subtle anger, sadness, frustration, etc., my boyfriend perceives me as VERY angry/sad/frustrated and gets extremely stressed out. He acknowledged that he is likely overperceiving my negative emotions (I definitely agree) and has a tendency to do so when he really cares about someone. He then "freezes." At that point, he either can't think--his mind goes blank--or he experiences a feeling of "too many thoughts at once." He is effectively rendered unable to articulate a response and will quickly end the conversation. He may then cut off communication with me for several hours, while I wonder nervously what went wrong. He explained that, during this period of silence, he is totally stressed out and feels unable to do anything. Basically, when I express negative emotions, he perceives it as the "end of the world; it's all over," shuts down, and needs time (sometimes, a lot of time) to "prepare a response."
He further explained that, ever since he was a kid, he has experienced something similar in other stressful situations. If, for example, a teacher called on him in class when he wasn't expecting it, he would freeze and say nothing. He needed more time to prepare a response. His teachers often became frustrated with him. They knew he was highly intelligent, so why couldn't he just say the answer that they knew was in his head?
Today was the first time my boyfriend has talked about this. In many ways, the conversation was a breakthrough for us because, until now, I had no idea what was causing this pattern of behavior. From my perspective, my boyfriend's behavior seemed anywhere from bizarre to very inconsiderate, though he's usually a very sweet and considerate person. And I couldn't understand why he seemed to feel that I was the one doing something inappropriate (e.g., today he apparently thought I was extremely angry, when in fact, I was only mildly frustrated that he had decided not to come visit me and didn't/couldn't provide an explanation (as it turns out, he needed to focus on his work but couldn't tell me that when I asked him because he froze at possible signs of anger in my voice)).
Hoping to come up with a constructive suggestion, I told my boyfriend that, from now on, I will try to tell him "I'm just a little frustrated..." or "I'm seriously concerned..." etc. to try to help make obvious the magnitude of my emotions. In exchange, I asked that he believe me (e.g., if I say I'm just a little frustrated, don't assume I'm really frustrated). He seemed to feel good about this suggestion, and I felt empowered by it. I also asked him to tell me if he feels like he needs to take some time to get his thoughts together (e.g., "I need some time to think - can we talk in a few hours?"), rather than disappearing. He wasn't sure he'd be able to do that when he feels "frozen/shut down," but he said he will make an effort.
I was feeling good at that point, but then he mentioned that he was thinking of seeing a therapist about our relationship, in part because we "argue all the time," and it prevents him from getting his work done. Though I encouraged him to see a therapist (I'd like to do the same), I was surprised by his comment because, from my perspective, we argue hardly at all. I asked him how often he thought a typical couple argues. He said "one or two times a year."
And then I felt really deflated. I'm a very conflict-averse person, but I still can't imagine a relationship in which my partner and I only argue once or twice a year.
Tonight, something actually quite upsetting happened. A guy tried to break in to my apartment complex and badly frightened my neighbor/friend (cops came; it's fine now). I didn't call my boyfriend because I was too afraid that I had already stressed him out too much today, and if I'm not careful, he's going to start to associate me with stress and the negative impact on his work productivity.
I need to be able to express my emotions freely (albeit not carelessly) and am now afraid that this will drive my boyfriend away from me precisely when I most need his support. I want to be constructive but just don't really know how to deal with this. Has anyone dealt with something similar (as either partner)? Suggestions? Insights?
Finally, I don't want to make too much of this, but I suspect that my boyfriend is on the autism spectrum (I'm not), for a variety of reasons that I won't discuss here (and no, no formal diagnosis). So far, I've been looking at it like this: Any two people have to work hard to figure out how to manage their differences if they want to have a good relationship; in our case, the differences just happen to lie in somewhat different places than what I'm accustomed to. I mention it only because I think it might be contributing to the problems we're having, and some of you out there who are on the spectrum or have a partner who is might be particularly well-equipped to help.
Response by poster: Could you elaborate more on the mismatch in "long-standing habits"? We both are careful about how we express negative emotions; in fact, I think I am much more careful than he is. One key difference, though, is that, when he tells me about his super stressful day at work or even that his frustration with me because I interrupted him, or whatever, I can have a conversation with him about it without getting very worked up. If I do the same, there's a good chance that he will perceive my mild agitation as VERY STRONG and then shut down and withdraw. Perhaps that's precisely what you meant?
Anyway, yes, I would consider couples' therapy and will ask him. He might prefer to have some one-on-one therapist time first, but I think he would be open to couples' therapy at some point.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 10:13 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyway, yes, I would consider couples' therapy and will ask him. He might prefer to have some one-on-one therapist time first, but I think he would be open to couples' therapy at some point.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 10:13 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are you in therapy yourself? If not, have you considered it? It sounds like you're a person who processes what you're thinking and feeling verbally, and that your boyfriend, at least right now, is not capable of being a person with whom you can do that. A therapist is someone you can do that with.
Also, I agree with your partner on frequency of arguments. If I were arguing with someone more than a couple of times a year, I'd break up with them, because I consider that to be an unacceptably high level of argument. This is not to say that he is right and you are wrong; this is to say that you are each entitled to want what you want out of a relationship, and he is just as entitled as you are to think that a certain frequency of conflict is normal or desirable. It may be that you're incompatible in this way, and it will take a lot of work to get past that. But he's not wrong or unrealistic to want a relationship in which arguments happen no more than a couple of times a year.
posted by decathecting at 10:15 PM on August 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, I agree with your partner on frequency of arguments. If I were arguing with someone more than a couple of times a year, I'd break up with them, because I consider that to be an unacceptably high level of argument. This is not to say that he is right and you are wrong; this is to say that you are each entitled to want what you want out of a relationship, and he is just as entitled as you are to think that a certain frequency of conflict is normal or desirable. It may be that you're incompatible in this way, and it will take a lot of work to get past that. But he's not wrong or unrealistic to want a relationship in which arguments happen no more than a couple of times a year.
posted by decathecting at 10:15 PM on August 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
As a person on the spectrum, I thought "he sounds like an Aspie" before you mentioned it in your Ask. We have trouble reading people. It's hard to gauge the severity of a loved one's response when you don't take in microexpressions in tone/facial expression. It sounds like he tries to err on the side of caution, in case things are really bad, so he can try to make things right. I also identify with the "too many thoughts in your head" thing and shutting down. Another thing is that we don't really get how people and relationships work intutively. I know that it's not realistic to fight just twice a year, but I wouldn't know that if I hadn't read tons of relationship books and posts to get a sense of normality. Metafilter has saved my life.
Aspies can be highly sensitive and highly empathetic and often a mild annoyance is amplified by our brain chemistry. It is difficult to deal with this in a relationship. I am now in a very happy relationship with a guy on the spectrum, and we understand each other really well. Since we are both conflict-averse but very open with each other, we manage (so far) to de-escalate any potential conflicts by talking them out. I don't know how old you guys are, but my SO and I are both over 35. It sounds like your BF needs to get to know himself better and to cultivate a more realistic view of relationship conflict and learn stress management. That comes with maturity, but he can speed it up by reading and therapy. It's great that he wants to go.
The emotions interfering with work thing, I totally get that too. My SO and I are both one-track focusers and even mild emotional troubles can be a distraction from the comfort of perseverating over something. It is okay to be this way, it's just the way some people are wired and your BF needs to know how to balance his needs for introverted concentration and emotional connection.
Per the epic thread of July 15 on the Blue, I want to caution you not to do all the emotional labor for him. Being Aspie isn't an excuse. It's just a collection of traits that need to be accepted and worked with, and he is the one that needs to do that, and to be able to communicate to you about his needs and feelings as you do yours. I think it can work even if you're not both on the spectrum as long as you're both committed to understanding and accepting each other.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 10:28 PM on August 8, 2015 [16 favorites]
Aspies can be highly sensitive and highly empathetic and often a mild annoyance is amplified by our brain chemistry. It is difficult to deal with this in a relationship. I am now in a very happy relationship with a guy on the spectrum, and we understand each other really well. Since we are both conflict-averse but very open with each other, we manage (so far) to de-escalate any potential conflicts by talking them out. I don't know how old you guys are, but my SO and I are both over 35. It sounds like your BF needs to get to know himself better and to cultivate a more realistic view of relationship conflict and learn stress management. That comes with maturity, but he can speed it up by reading and therapy. It's great that he wants to go.
The emotions interfering with work thing, I totally get that too. My SO and I are both one-track focusers and even mild emotional troubles can be a distraction from the comfort of perseverating over something. It is okay to be this way, it's just the way some people are wired and your BF needs to know how to balance his needs for introverted concentration and emotional connection.
Per the epic thread of July 15 on the Blue, I want to caution you not to do all the emotional labor for him. Being Aspie isn't an excuse. It's just a collection of traits that need to be accepted and worked with, and he is the one that needs to do that, and to be able to communicate to you about his needs and feelings as you do yours. I think it can work even if you're not both on the spectrum as long as you're both committed to understanding and accepting each other.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 10:28 PM on August 8, 2015 [16 favorites]
I just wanted to add after previewing what decathecting wrote about the frequency of disagreements that I was referring to minor disagreements and easily resolved conflicts. My impression is that's what you guys are dealing with, not knock-down-drag-out fights, which shouldn't be frequent.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 10:36 PM on August 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 10:36 PM on August 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
When you talk about him cutting off communication for a few hours, is this during an argument in person (i.e., you live together and he goes off into the other room) or do you mean he doesn't respond to phone/text? I ask because the former indicates a more serious issue in dealing with conflict, but the latter might explain why he's unable to accurately gauge how upset you are. I'm on the spectrum (I do think it might be relevant here) and my partner and I resolve conflict through a lot of in-person, judgement-free communication. If he has trouble dealing with clear, calm communication in person, I definitely think couples' therapy is a good idea.
posted by thetortoise at 10:47 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by thetortoise at 10:47 PM on August 8, 2015
If I express even subtle anger, sadness, frustration, etc., my boyfriend perceives me as VERY angry/sad/frustrated and gets extremely stressed out.
How often is the anger subtle and how often is it not subtle. I am a bit troubled. You present the minimum case as the example. If you are getting angry a lot, or emoting a lot and at a high level a decent level of times, he's going to start reacting to the slightest bit of anger from you.
Have you thought about learning to control your emoting? I use the rubber band technique. When I experience anger I snap a rubber band I have around my left wrist to make myself aware of what is going on and that I am over-emotiong. Which I have a long history of doing.
I think to really help you we are going to need some data.
First, how often and how strongly do you get angry at him? Tell us the worst blow out story.
Second, tell us what you know of his childhood, was there a lot of anger expressed in his household? Especially by his female parent? If so, you would be well-served by learning to acknowledge your anger around him without expressing it strongly, and instead putting your grievances down in an E-mail message.
I have the strong suspicion that something you do in the way you get angry, express sadness, anxiety or other emotions, is triggering something in him. He is aware of the extent that he knows something is going on and has a way of coping with it--to back off, to give himself time to think and then to respond. I think you will make the relationship stronger if you learn to adjust your emotiong style to his response to emotiong style. Its the only way 2 people can work.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:58 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
How often is the anger subtle and how often is it not subtle. I am a bit troubled. You present the minimum case as the example. If you are getting angry a lot, or emoting a lot and at a high level a decent level of times, he's going to start reacting to the slightest bit of anger from you.
Have you thought about learning to control your emoting? I use the rubber band technique. When I experience anger I snap a rubber band I have around my left wrist to make myself aware of what is going on and that I am over-emotiong. Which I have a long history of doing.
I think to really help you we are going to need some data.
First, how often and how strongly do you get angry at him? Tell us the worst blow out story.
Second, tell us what you know of his childhood, was there a lot of anger expressed in his household? Especially by his female parent? If so, you would be well-served by learning to acknowledge your anger around him without expressing it strongly, and instead putting your grievances down in an E-mail message.
I have the strong suspicion that something you do in the way you get angry, express sadness, anxiety or other emotions, is triggering something in him. He is aware of the extent that he knows something is going on and has a way of coping with it--to back off, to give himself time to think and then to respond. I think you will make the relationship stronger if you learn to adjust your emotiong style to his response to emotiong style. Its the only way 2 people can work.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:58 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oops, one more question: are you bringing up your frustration in conversations while he's working (or trying to get anything else done)? If he's an Aspie and you're having an emotional conversation, not being able to solely focus on that could seriously compound the stress of an otherwise minor conflict.
posted by thetortoise at 10:59 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by thetortoise at 10:59 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks so much, All, for the helpful insights. A couple of clarifications: Yes, I am talking about minor arguments... Maybe not even arguments by most people's standards. We're both pretty conflict-averse. This morning, for example, the "argument" consisted of me calling him and asking when he was coming over, him telling me that he'd like to come over tomorrow instead, me saying something along the lines of "Oh, well, OK, but I cancelled plans with my friends today to spend time with you... Did something come up?"; Him "No"; Me "OK, then is something wrong"; Him "No"; Me "You sure?" [which I guess in retrospect was not explicit enough - what I was looking for was an explanation for him cancelling]. At that point he said something quick to get off the phone. I sent an email about an hour after to explain that I wasn't mad, just confused as to why he cancelled. He responded only to say that he had a headache and would prefer to talk later.
We don't live together. So, if he shuts down during/following an "argument" or whatever we should be calling it, I'll usually send one text maybe an hour or so after he hangs up to check in and try to open the doors to communicating again. Then I just wait. If he doesn't respond, I call back that night. I agree that in-person communication would be much better, but that sometimes isn't an option (and wasn't at all during a 9-month period during which we were long-distance, when many of these instances took place).
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:00 PM on August 8, 2015
We don't live together. So, if he shuts down during/following an "argument" or whatever we should be calling it, I'll usually send one text maybe an hour or so after he hangs up to check in and try to open the doors to communicating again. Then I just wait. If he doesn't respond, I call back that night. I agree that in-person communication would be much better, but that sometimes isn't an option (and wasn't at all during a 9-month period during which we were long-distance, when many of these instances took place).
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:00 PM on August 8, 2015
This really seems like a great thing to work on in couples therapy, ideally with a counselor who understands mild autism. I was in a relationship with a similar dynamic. In couples therapy, we got past it. Some of what it took to get past it wouldn't have worked if we had tried to do it alone ourselves.
posted by salvia at 11:01 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by salvia at 11:01 PM on August 8, 2015
Response by poster: No, I always ask if he's busy before starting a conversation. I also work very long days (both in academia), so I'm sensitive to the work-time/talk-time distinction.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:02 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:02 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Ironmouth, I understand where the concern comes from, but I rarely get angry, so I am confident that this is not being triggered by a history of me getting angry with him. If you really want an extreme on the opposite end, I can think of only one time that I got very angry with him. He took a lot of money from me without asking (he thought he could pay it back before I noticed). It ended with me yelling with tears in my eyes and extreme desperation that I didn't understand him and couldn't believe that he would take money from me and put me at risk in that way (I'm a postdoc with no income until next fall, and often have barely what I need to pay the rent). Although I'm not comfortable with the fact that I got so angry, I don't think it indicates anything core to my personality.
Other than that, we have casual disagreements about stupid everyday things - nothing serious. And we go through the cycle described above every several weeks or so, which is probably the most destructive thing, hence my desire to get help to fix it.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:14 PM on August 8, 2015
Other than that, we have casual disagreements about stupid everyday things - nothing serious. And we go through the cycle described above every several weeks or so, which is probably the most destructive thing, hence my desire to get help to fix it.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:14 PM on August 8, 2015
Response by poster: Oh, sorry, I missed the second question. His parents were very calm growing up. He actually said that his mom and dad got divorced without, as far as he knows, ever having a fight. I wondered if this early conflict-free environment might also have made him extra sensitive to any displays of upset. If so, that's not a problem on his side. I mean, I don't think I need to actually feel less extreme emotions (I think I'm very good at regulating my emotions and being constructive and calm during conflicts), but perhaps I need to express them less? e.g., be extra careful to control the tone of my voice if it's a situation where he might perceive that I'm going to be upset??
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:19 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:19 PM on August 8, 2015
This morning, for example, the "argument" consisted of me calling him and asking when he was coming over, him telling me that he'd like to come over tomorrow instead, me saying something along the lines of "Oh, well, OK, but I cancelled plans with my friends today to spend time with you... Did something come up?"; Him "No"; Me "OK, then is something wrong"; Him "No"; Me "You sure?" [which I guess in retrospect was not explicit enough - what I was looking for was an explanation for him cancelling]. At that point he said something quick to get off the phone. I sent an email about an hour after to explain that I wasn't mad, just confused as to why he cancelled. He responded only to say that he had a headache and would prefer to talk later.
His response does strike me as odd and disproportionate, especially after you explained your feelings clearly and without blame in the e-mail. I wonder if he's feeling frustrated about something too but not voicing his own emotions, because honestly the headache reply reads a little passive-aggressive to me. If this is a representative example of the kinds of "arguments" you're talking about, I think he's in need of more work on learning how to communicate clearly on his end. That's definitely something that could be accomplished in therapy.
posted by thetortoise at 11:25 PM on August 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
His response does strike me as odd and disproportionate, especially after you explained your feelings clearly and without blame in the e-mail. I wonder if he's feeling frustrated about something too but not voicing his own emotions, because honestly the headache reply reads a little passive-aggressive to me. If this is a representative example of the kinds of "arguments" you're talking about, I think he's in need of more work on learning how to communicate clearly on his end. That's definitely something that could be accomplished in therapy.
posted by thetortoise at 11:25 PM on August 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, I used to make the mistake of interpreting that kind of response from him as passive aggressive, but he says he is incapable of passive aggression (what he calls "indirect communication"). He is also completely incapable of lying (I have observed this - he really doesn't know how to do it), so I totally believe him. Him saying he has a headache when, from my perspective, some sort of conversation needs to take place does indeed continue to strike me as weird... but I've come to realize that it isn't that he's being passive aggressive; it's that he truly doesn't understand that he's worrying me by not communicating with me. Therefore, it seems perfectly rational to him to deal with the headache now and talk with me when it's more convenient. This is something I have to remind myself a lot with him, but I've started to get used to it (He once left an important conversation with me to go get something to eat! That really bothered me at the time, but now I understand.)
I'm strongly leaning toward couples therapy. I think he's probably willing to do it.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:39 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm strongly leaning toward couples therapy. I think he's probably willing to do it.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:39 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: NeverGrowSoOldAgain, I just want to note that Ask Metafilter isn't really for back-and-forth conversation. I realize that you've been mostly clarifying and answering questions directed toward you, which is fine, but it's better to stick to the most essential responses that folks need in order to answer and otherwise just relax and take in the suggestions. Thanks!
posted by taz (staff) at 4:22 AM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 4:22 AM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
In re. "I still can't imagine a relationship in which my partner and I only argue once or twice a year" and "His parents were very calm growing up" -- I would want to flesh that out further. Things have often not gone well for me when I have tried to date people whose parents argued regularly -- the exception there would be men who, having grown up around that, made a conscious decision to not do that. For me, "I'm a very conflict-averse person, but I still can't imagine a relationship in which my partner and I only argue once or twice a year" is a difficult line to reconcile; coming from a calm family of origin, that doesn't sound conflict-averse (though it is difficult to get a read on how fighty a fight is here).
There are certainly couples that fight, some quite dramatically and seemingly with much anger, and fight, per non-fighty couple standards, very frequently. Often, to them, it "means nothing" and it's "just what all couples do." (That part always throws me; I tend to assume it must be a multi-generational thing.)
A mismatch there can be a difficult thing to navigate; not only is there the arguing problem, but also the problem of what is perceived as "normal." It is a thing that can be hard to discuss because it is difficult to do so without a little soupçon of "your family does this thing wrong."
One thing I have wrung a lot of utility out of in my personal life is to always try to sit on irritations for twenty-four hours. 24h in which there has been adequate sleep, food, no major new stressors, etc. After 24h many irritations reveal themselves as the trivia they are. But if one has slept on it and decides it is still an issue that needs to be addressed, one has the extra bit of calm there and can bring it up constructively and relatively unemotionally: for X reason I am having a problem with Y so I'm wondering what we can do when Y comes up, etc. A well-timed conflict resolution means the issue can be talked through at a convenient time, and without a particular tone of voice saying more than one needs to say.
posted by kmennie at 5:09 AM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
There are certainly couples that fight, some quite dramatically and seemingly with much anger, and fight, per non-fighty couple standards, very frequently. Often, to them, it "means nothing" and it's "just what all couples do." (That part always throws me; I tend to assume it must be a multi-generational thing.)
A mismatch there can be a difficult thing to navigate; not only is there the arguing problem, but also the problem of what is perceived as "normal." It is a thing that can be hard to discuss because it is difficult to do so without a little soupçon of "your family does this thing wrong."
One thing I have wrung a lot of utility out of in my personal life is to always try to sit on irritations for twenty-four hours. 24h in which there has been adequate sleep, food, no major new stressors, etc. After 24h many irritations reveal themselves as the trivia they are. But if one has slept on it and decides it is still an issue that needs to be addressed, one has the extra bit of calm there and can bring it up constructively and relatively unemotionally: for X reason I am having a problem with Y so I'm wondering what we can do when Y comes up, etc. A well-timed conflict resolution means the issue can be talked through at a convenient time, and without a particular tone of voice saying more than one needs to say.
posted by kmennie at 5:09 AM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Your approach of telling him how upset you are when you are upset is the right one. Just be factual. "I am a little ticked now although I know you didn't do it on purpose. I'm tired so I get ticked off more easily. If I get half an hour with a book I will be completely over being annoyed."
Meanwhile also up the non-verbal positive communication but explain it as you go: "I have made enough macaroni and cheese for both of us because I am not remotely annoyed enough to stop wanting to look after you."
And: "You seem to have withdrawn from me completely which is making me feel insecure. I would like to be comforted. Can we both read on the bed together so I can get some physical contact?"
"I'm not annoyed at you, I am absolutely fed up with my graduate student and it is making me stomp around a bit."
Your boyfriend is having anxiety attacks when you get mildly upset and dealing with it by freezing. The next time he withdraws from you do some non-entrapping re-connecting things like wandering over and planting a kiss on his forehead and wandering off again. The wandering off again is important because he needs the anxiety provoking stimulation to stop and you also do not need to get into the habit of being overly solicitous about his moods and stifling your own.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:23 AM on August 9, 2015
Meanwhile also up the non-verbal positive communication but explain it as you go: "I have made enough macaroni and cheese for both of us because I am not remotely annoyed enough to stop wanting to look after you."
And: "You seem to have withdrawn from me completely which is making me feel insecure. I would like to be comforted. Can we both read on the bed together so I can get some physical contact?"
"I'm not annoyed at you, I am absolutely fed up with my graduate student and it is making me stomp around a bit."
Your boyfriend is having anxiety attacks when you get mildly upset and dealing with it by freezing. The next time he withdraws from you do some non-entrapping re-connecting things like wandering over and planting a kiss on his forehead and wandering off again. The wandering off again is important because he needs the anxiety provoking stimulation to stop and you also do not need to get into the habit of being overly solicitous about his moods and stifling your own.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:23 AM on August 9, 2015
As a very low-key person ( though not necessarily conflict-averse) to me your example sounded like you went immediately to a place of conflict ("but I already cancelled plans for you...") before he had a chance to explain why he couldn't come. To me, bringing up the cancelled plans would make sense if the reason he couldn't come was in some way selfish or inappropriate ("I just don't feel like it") - I would then explain that I didn't think such a reason really was more important than the inconvenience of canceling plans. But if he has a good reason that you thought was appropriate, I don't see any reason to introduce it into the conversation. It's not going to do anything other than make him feel guilty, and if you both agree that his not coming is the right course of action, what's the point? It's not a problem that can be solved.
My initial response to his "I can't come," would probably have been, "oh, ok, did something come up?"
posted by frobozz at 5:32 AM on August 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
My initial response to his "I can't come," would probably have been, "oh, ok, did something come up?"
posted by frobozz at 5:32 AM on August 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Therefore, it seems perfectly rational to him to deal with the headache now and talk with me when it's more convenient. This is something I have to remind myself a lot with him, but I've started to get used to it (He once left an important conversation with me to go get something to eat!
One thing that's not clear from what you've said already: Does that time when the conversation is more "convenient" reliably arrive, or is he ducking issues entirely? It might be a good thing if he's just taking a break to gather his resources so he can kindly and thoughtfully navigate what, for him, is a very stressful conversation. But if he's waiting for you to give up and move on so he doesn't have to hear what you are saying then that's another ball of wax.
posted by jon1270 at 5:32 AM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
One thing that's not clear from what you've said already: Does that time when the conversation is more "convenient" reliably arrive, or is he ducking issues entirely? It might be a good thing if he's just taking a break to gather his resources so he can kindly and thoughtfully navigate what, for him, is a very stressful conversation. But if he's waiting for you to give up and move on so he doesn't have to hear what you are saying then that's another ball of wax.
posted by jon1270 at 5:32 AM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
(Not saying my approach is right or wrong, just offering it as an example of how someone from a very low-key family background might perceive things.)
posted by frobozz at 5:36 AM on August 9, 2015
posted by frobozz at 5:36 AM on August 9, 2015
he says he is incapable of passive aggression (what he calls "indirect communication"). He is also completely incapable of lying...
I don't believe this for a second. I might believe that he has convinced himself, and is unable to recognize when he's doing them. I mean, my husband's family dog is a master of lying and passive aggression.
This type of deferral of responsibility, without an accompanying effort to work out his anxiety issues, is very worrying to me. He is obviously capable of lying, it's just that he's only good at "lies of omission" and he has learned that he is not a convincing verbal liar. Even if he doesn't consciously lie to you, he still learns from the positive/negative reward cycle. The fact that he refuses to take ownership of himself virtually guarantees he will hurt you (and not feel an responsibility to make you feel any better). I strongly suspect he neglected to ask you for the large sum of money because deep down, he knew that would prevent him from getting it.
I think the people telling you to not be so angry are way, way off track given your updates. Swallowing your legitimate emotions is the last thing you need to be doing. All couples deal with minor irritations every day, and your boyfriend is the one escalating by leaving out essential information. It might be true that he is mentally unable to have the empathy to understand your needs. But I would argue that is a sign that he is not yet capable of an adult relationship.
I'd also like to second Beethoven's Sith's thread recommendation about imbalanced emotional labor.
The fact that he wants to go to couples counseling is a good sign that he is at least taking action. I would say it is required if you want to move forward. It's also 100% okay to realize you have different priorities and your own needs, like having a partner that can support you during crisis. If you do go to counseling, I would come up with a list of factors that are your non-negotiable "needs", and be willing to accept that you are not compatible if he is unwilling or unable to meet them.
posted by fermezporte at 5:44 AM on August 9, 2015 [40 favorites]
I don't believe this for a second. I might believe that he has convinced himself, and is unable to recognize when he's doing them. I mean, my husband's family dog is a master of lying and passive aggression.
This type of deferral of responsibility, without an accompanying effort to work out his anxiety issues, is very worrying to me. He is obviously capable of lying, it's just that he's only good at "lies of omission" and he has learned that he is not a convincing verbal liar. Even if he doesn't consciously lie to you, he still learns from the positive/negative reward cycle. The fact that he refuses to take ownership of himself virtually guarantees he will hurt you (and not feel an responsibility to make you feel any better). I strongly suspect he neglected to ask you for the large sum of money because deep down, he knew that would prevent him from getting it.
I think the people telling you to not be so angry are way, way off track given your updates. Swallowing your legitimate emotions is the last thing you need to be doing. All couples deal with minor irritations every day, and your boyfriend is the one escalating by leaving out essential information. It might be true that he is mentally unable to have the empathy to understand your needs. But I would argue that is a sign that he is not yet capable of an adult relationship.
I'd also like to second Beethoven's Sith's thread recommendation about imbalanced emotional labor.
The fact that he wants to go to couples counseling is a good sign that he is at least taking action. I would say it is required if you want to move forward. It's also 100% okay to realize you have different priorities and your own needs, like having a partner that can support you during crisis. If you do go to counseling, I would come up with a list of factors that are your non-negotiable "needs", and be willing to accept that you are not compatible if he is unwilling or unable to meet them.
posted by fermezporte at 5:44 AM on August 9, 2015 [40 favorites]
"his mom and dad got divorced without, as far as he knows, ever having a fight. I wondered if this early conflict-free environment might also have made him extra sensitive to any displays of upset."
This really stood out to me - Not being around fights can make one quite sensitive to the dynamic in and of itself, but feeling like separation can happen without even that level of observable conflict must make arguing seem like a really alarming thing.
My parents rarely fought outright when I was little (in front of us, anyway). That changed when I was a teenager, at which point it also became clear to me that my mom was pretty miserable (they didn't separate but arguably should have) so for me, arguing was always associated with marital breakdown. I married a man from a family that is always arguing about something, but that forgives and forgets extremely easily and quickly. In the early days of our relationship our 'frequent' arguments used to freak me the hell out, and I was often convinced after each one that it was the end of us. It was incredibly hard for me, but with his help and the help of a friend whose background was more like his than mine, I learned to be a better judge of which disagreements were minor and which actually warranted a greater level of emotional investment. We're also both much better at recognizing arguments as they start and de-escalating those that aren't important.
It's great that your partner is finding a therapist - I think I would have really benefitted from one in terms of recognizing how I was perceiving and processing the threat of conflict, and that we both would have gotten where we needed to be a lot faster with outside help.
posted by scrute at 7:02 AM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
This really stood out to me - Not being around fights can make one quite sensitive to the dynamic in and of itself, but feeling like separation can happen without even that level of observable conflict must make arguing seem like a really alarming thing.
My parents rarely fought outright when I was little (in front of us, anyway). That changed when I was a teenager, at which point it also became clear to me that my mom was pretty miserable (they didn't separate but arguably should have) so for me, arguing was always associated with marital breakdown. I married a man from a family that is always arguing about something, but that forgives and forgets extremely easily and quickly. In the early days of our relationship our 'frequent' arguments used to freak me the hell out, and I was often convinced after each one that it was the end of us. It was incredibly hard for me, but with his help and the help of a friend whose background was more like his than mine, I learned to be a better judge of which disagreements were minor and which actually warranted a greater level of emotional investment. We're also both much better at recognizing arguments as they start and de-escalating those that aren't important.
It's great that your partner is finding a therapist - I think I would have really benefitted from one in terms of recognizing how I was perceiving and processing the threat of conflict, and that we both would have gotten where we needed to be a lot faster with outside help.
posted by scrute at 7:02 AM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
he says he is incapable of passive aggression (what he calls "indirect communication"). He is also completely incapable of lying
Yeah, he may honestly think that he's incapable of being passive aggressive, so he may not be lying. (Also, he is definitely capable of lying if he is capable of stealing a lot of money from you. That's a lie right there, even if he never says it out loud.) But he is being passive aggressive as hell in the situations you're describing. He is forcing you to do all of the emotional work in your relationship: guessing his mood, phrasing things in exactly the right way to avoid upsetting him, deciding whether your feelings are important enough to ask him to acknowledge them, chasing after him when he goes silent, and placating him until he decides to reward you by forgiving you for the crime of not being completely compliant with his demands that your feelings be only the feelings he wants you to have.
I wouldn't describe the scenario you laid out in your comment last night as an argument: I would describe it as him being withholding, cold, and mean to you. And the fact that he has stolen money from you is just the icing on the cake.
At first, I was leaning towards thinking you were sort of both equally contributing to an unhealthy dynamic, and that you should both work on it. Your clarifications have led me to believe that this man is emotionally abusive towards you. He may not intend to be, and he may be a very nice person in between these bouts of forcing you to jump through hoops and apologize for daring to have your own feelings. But this does not sound like a healthy relationship for you, and I would make couples counseling (where he really participates and shares his feelings instead of shutting down, and where he doesn't punish you in between sessions by shutting down and ignoring you because you dared to talk about your feelings in therapy) a mandatory condition of continuing this relationship.
posted by decathecting at 7:04 AM on August 9, 2015 [35 favorites]
Yeah, he may honestly think that he's incapable of being passive aggressive, so he may not be lying. (Also, he is definitely capable of lying if he is capable of stealing a lot of money from you. That's a lie right there, even if he never says it out loud.) But he is being passive aggressive as hell in the situations you're describing. He is forcing you to do all of the emotional work in your relationship: guessing his mood, phrasing things in exactly the right way to avoid upsetting him, deciding whether your feelings are important enough to ask him to acknowledge them, chasing after him when he goes silent, and placating him until he decides to reward you by forgiving you for the crime of not being completely compliant with his demands that your feelings be only the feelings he wants you to have.
I wouldn't describe the scenario you laid out in your comment last night as an argument: I would describe it as him being withholding, cold, and mean to you. And the fact that he has stolen money from you is just the icing on the cake.
At first, I was leaning towards thinking you were sort of both equally contributing to an unhealthy dynamic, and that you should both work on it. Your clarifications have led me to believe that this man is emotionally abusive towards you. He may not intend to be, and he may be a very nice person in between these bouts of forcing you to jump through hoops and apologize for daring to have your own feelings. But this does not sound like a healthy relationship for you, and I would make couples counseling (where he really participates and shares his feelings instead of shutting down, and where he doesn't punish you in between sessions by shutting down and ignoring you because you dared to talk about your feelings in therapy) a mandatory condition of continuing this relationship.
posted by decathecting at 7:04 AM on August 9, 2015 [35 favorites]
. . . I can think of only one time that I got very angry with him. He took a lot of money from me without asking (he thought he could pay it back before I noticed) . . . . Although I'm not comfortable with the fact that I got so angry, I don't think it indicates anything core to my personality.
He stole from you?! You had every right to be angry. I am surprised to see you say that you are "not comfortable" that you were so angry about this. IMO, this is something worth breaking up over alone. I would feel completely betrayed, especially seeing as you said you really need that money. If he thought it was okay, thinking he could "pay it back before you noticed", what else does he think he could get away with?
Tonight, something actually quite upsetting happened . . . I didn't call my boyfriend because I was too afraid that I had already stressed him out too much today . . .
I need to be able to express my emotions freely (albeit not carelessly) and am now afraid that this will drive my boyfriend away from me precisely when I most need his support.
We both are careful about how we express negative emotions; in fact, I think I am much more careful than he is . . .
Apart from this incident, it sounds like he has you walking on eggshells to control your emotions around him. Do you really want to spend all your time policing your completely acceptable reactions to things?
I know you've been long-distance for nine months so maybe this is a case of sunk-cost fallacy, but please take a step back and think about what you are actually getting out of this relationship. I saw your other question about the same guy; it sounds like you are expending a lot of effort and emotional energy to be with him and not exactly getting what you want from a relationship in return. There is nothing noble or commendable about trying to make a relationship work that is essentially a mismatch in expectations; it just ends up as a lot of wasted time and energy.
And because I can't get over the fact that he stole from you (please don't try to use euphemisms for what he did, for your own sake, because "stealing" is exactly what this is), a question I think you should think about is: how well do you know him? It can take some time before a person's true colors start to come out. One thing I've learned about people is that when someone does something seemingly out of character, it is usually not. It is likely a sign of things to come. It only seems like an anomaly because it doesn't fit the pattern of what you think this otherwise seemingly good and decent person is like.
posted by sevenofspades at 7:08 AM on August 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
He stole from you?! You had every right to be angry. I am surprised to see you say that you are "not comfortable" that you were so angry about this. IMO, this is something worth breaking up over alone. I would feel completely betrayed, especially seeing as you said you really need that money. If he thought it was okay, thinking he could "pay it back before you noticed", what else does he think he could get away with?
Tonight, something actually quite upsetting happened . . . I didn't call my boyfriend because I was too afraid that I had already stressed him out too much today . . .
I need to be able to express my emotions freely (albeit not carelessly) and am now afraid that this will drive my boyfriend away from me precisely when I most need his support.
We both are careful about how we express negative emotions; in fact, I think I am much more careful than he is . . .
Apart from this incident, it sounds like he has you walking on eggshells to control your emotions around him. Do you really want to spend all your time policing your completely acceptable reactions to things?
I know you've been long-distance for nine months so maybe this is a case of sunk-cost fallacy, but please take a step back and think about what you are actually getting out of this relationship. I saw your other question about the same guy; it sounds like you are expending a lot of effort and emotional energy to be with him and not exactly getting what you want from a relationship in return. There is nothing noble or commendable about trying to make a relationship work that is essentially a mismatch in expectations; it just ends up as a lot of wasted time and energy.
And because I can't get over the fact that he stole from you (please don't try to use euphemisms for what he did, for your own sake, because "stealing" is exactly what this is), a question I think you should think about is: how well do you know him? It can take some time before a person's true colors start to come out. One thing I've learned about people is that when someone does something seemingly out of character, it is usually not. It is likely a sign of things to come. It only seems like an anomaly because it doesn't fit the pattern of what you think this otherwise seemingly good and decent person is like.
posted by sevenofspades at 7:08 AM on August 9, 2015 [24 favorites]
Tonight, something actually quite upsetting happened. A guy tried to break in to my apartment complex and badly frightened my neighbor/friend (cops came; it's fine now). I didn't call my boyfriend because I was too afraid that I had already stressed him out too much today, and if I'm not careful, he's going to start to associate me with stress and the negative impact on his work productivity.
I think it's perfectly fine not to call your boyfriend about something like this. There's no right or wrong, clearly. But a lot of people would mention it, if at all, the next time they actually saw their boyfriend/girlfriend. "Whoa, something really scary happened at my apartment yesterday." Because yes, he may start to think any communication from you is likely to be about stressful information. In this case, would he be able to do anything? Would you want him to offer to come over, or invite you over there? If not, maybe it's just as well not to call.
Forgive me if I missed something; I am not sure from your question how long you've been together or where you see this relationship going. It sounds to me from this and your previous question like communication in your relationship is a whole lot of work. There was a comment on AskMe a while ago which struck me as brilliant, to the effect that some couples spend a lot of talking about their communication and talking about talking, but not really talking. Is it possible that this is going on with you?
posted by BibiRose at 7:18 AM on August 9, 2015
I think it's perfectly fine not to call your boyfriend about something like this. There's no right or wrong, clearly. But a lot of people would mention it, if at all, the next time they actually saw their boyfriend/girlfriend. "Whoa, something really scary happened at my apartment yesterday." Because yes, he may start to think any communication from you is likely to be about stressful information. In this case, would he be able to do anything? Would you want him to offer to come over, or invite you over there? If not, maybe it's just as well not to call.
Forgive me if I missed something; I am not sure from your question how long you've been together or where you see this relationship going. It sounds to me from this and your previous question like communication in your relationship is a whole lot of work. There was a comment on AskMe a while ago which struck me as brilliant, to the effect that some couples spend a lot of talking about their communication and talking about talking, but not really talking. Is it possible that this is going on with you?
posted by BibiRose at 7:18 AM on August 9, 2015
I'm sorry for saying it, but your boyfriend is simply unable to handle a relationship. He does not have the emotional or mental adult strength to do so. Whether due to some combination of immaturity and busyness and other stressful obligations at work or school, or depression, it doesn't ultimately matter. The "child being called on by teacher" example is less flattering and comforting than you think- he's the child, you're the adult authority figure.
All couples "argue" more than once or twice a year. Not ever disagreeing is not a sign of a good relationship at all, and indicates a lack of realism and possible dishonesty. Arguing/disagreeing WELL is by far the healthiest thing. Screaming, storming out, the silent treatment, calling names- very unhealthy. That middle ground is what you want and it does not sound like your boyfriend has developed the communication skills to handle interpersonal conflict in a productive way. Or simply doesn't want to.
Not being able to tell your partner about a break-in is unacceptable. What happens if you fall and break your arm? What happens if someone in your family dies? He bails?
That's what you call a "fair-weather friend" - nowhere close to a boyfriend or partner.
My boyfriend has always been very big on talking things out when I'm mad. And sometimes I didn't even want to! But he very calmly would say, "quincunx, we need to talk about this. We need to communicate. I want to work it out." And he was 100% correct and this healthy relationship skill allowed us to get past far more than "one fight a year" - I'd say at lest four pretty big disagreements/upsets in a year. I'm very, very happy with him not because we never fight, but because he has a proactive and very mature response to my disagreements and unhappiness, and we work it out. That's what a good relationship should be like.
posted by quincunx at 8:42 AM on August 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
All couples "argue" more than once or twice a year. Not ever disagreeing is not a sign of a good relationship at all, and indicates a lack of realism and possible dishonesty. Arguing/disagreeing WELL is by far the healthiest thing. Screaming, storming out, the silent treatment, calling names- very unhealthy. That middle ground is what you want and it does not sound like your boyfriend has developed the communication skills to handle interpersonal conflict in a productive way. Or simply doesn't want to.
Not being able to tell your partner about a break-in is unacceptable. What happens if you fall and break your arm? What happens if someone in your family dies? He bails?
That's what you call a "fair-weather friend" - nowhere close to a boyfriend or partner.
My boyfriend has always been very big on talking things out when I'm mad. And sometimes I didn't even want to! But he very calmly would say, "quincunx, we need to talk about this. We need to communicate. I want to work it out." And he was 100% correct and this healthy relationship skill allowed us to get past far more than "one fight a year" - I'd say at lest four pretty big disagreements/upsets in a year. I'm very, very happy with him not because we never fight, but because he has a proactive and very mature response to my disagreements and unhappiness, and we work it out. That's what a good relationship should be like.
posted by quincunx at 8:42 AM on August 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
I find your agreement with him that he can't lie combined with the fact that he stole money from you completely baffling. He might not be able to smoothly construct a story and lie verbally, but dude can clearly lie like a rug if able to sneak around out of sight.
I dated someone who was exactly like that, completely honest if asked a direct question, but lied by omission as a daily matter of course. It was crazy making! And he, like your boyfriend, was solid in his belief that he was a 100% honest person. Who just didn't tell me he had dinner with his ex last night. Because I never asked.
That belief system and behaviour is completely incompatible with having a healthy adult relationship. It doesn't matter if he's on the autism spectrum. If he's incapable of dealing with even mild emotions from his partner (and steals from them!), he's not datable. That doesn't make him a bad person (well, stealing kind of does), but relationships ARE emotions, and if he's telling you he'll only accept half of the emotions you are capable of, he can't accept you.
I think you should read this comment by Meese here. I don't read that you are earasing part of yourself, but that might be what staying in this relationship requires.
I'd give couples counselling a go if that would help you understand the dynamics, but from experience I don't think it's going to solve the problem. It might help you feel like you did everything you could though, and that can be worth something.
posted by Dynex at 9:07 AM on August 9, 2015 [22 favorites]
I dated someone who was exactly like that, completely honest if asked a direct question, but lied by omission as a daily matter of course. It was crazy making! And he, like your boyfriend, was solid in his belief that he was a 100% honest person. Who just didn't tell me he had dinner with his ex last night. Because I never asked.
That belief system and behaviour is completely incompatible with having a healthy adult relationship. It doesn't matter if he's on the autism spectrum. If he's incapable of dealing with even mild emotions from his partner (and steals from them!), he's not datable. That doesn't make him a bad person (well, stealing kind of does), but relationships ARE emotions, and if he's telling you he'll only accept half of the emotions you are capable of, he can't accept you.
I think you should read this comment by Meese here. I don't read that you are earasing part of yourself, but that might be what staying in this relationship requires.
I'd give couples counselling a go if that would help you understand the dynamics, but from experience I don't think it's going to solve the problem. It might help you feel like you did everything you could though, and that can be worth something.
posted by Dynex at 9:07 AM on August 9, 2015 [22 favorites]
He took a significant amount of money from you without permission? What?? That's not how healthy dating relationships work. (Healthy dating relationship is a text like, "Hey, I didn't have the exact change for the bus home after you left for work, I grabbed those quarters that were on the counter.")
I don't see why you are working on communication problems with someone who steals from you.
That said, it's totally legit to say, "I canceled other plans to spend time with you, I am disappointed if you're flaking for no good reason." From the sounds of it, you don't sound unreasonable or overly emotional.
But, ugh, don't tie yourself in knots for someone who steals and thinks nothing of it.
posted by stowaway at 9:58 AM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't see why you are working on communication problems with someone who steals from you.
That said, it's totally legit to say, "I canceled other plans to spend time with you, I am disappointed if you're flaking for no good reason." From the sounds of it, you don't sound unreasonable or overly emotional.
But, ugh, don't tie yourself in knots for someone who steals and thinks nothing of it.
posted by stowaway at 9:58 AM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry, I know this isn't supposed to be a back-and-forth, but I just wanted to respond to a couple of things. It's true that he can and does lie by omission, which is part of why I get so stressed out if he cuts off contact with me (in the past, he has said that nothing was wrong, but it ended up that something serious had come up, which I could have helped him with, and he only told me about it much later). I think the "stealing" incident was one of those. I had given him access to a bank account that I created for the purpose of lending him some money for his tuition. He has been paying me back small sums, as he can, over the past few months (his family helps him out). He had been jobless for a few months (just got a job this past week, thank goodness), so a few weeks ago I told him gently that I was concerned about his financial situation and was wondering how he was paying for living expenses. He didn't say anything at first. So, I asked if he would prefer not to tell me (I thought he had racked up a lot of credit card debt and was embarrassed about it). He said he'd prefer not to tell me because it was embarrassing. Then he said that he had used some of the money out of the account I had given him access to. I thought he meant that he used the money he had paid me back. I said that was fine, but he should have told me. Later, I actually needed to withdraw some money from the account, and that's when I saw that he had taken almost $1000 out of the $1500 that I keep in the account as a minimum balance (and that he was not supposed to touch). I confronted him about it,and he was shocked by how upset I was (I told him that I felt betrayed and couldn't believe he would take my money without asking, especially given I had already given him what I could afford and was now concerned I wouldn't have enough to pay my rent if anything unexpected came up). He explained over and over that it had been normal for him to sometimes use the money he had paid me back, then add more back, then use some, add more back, and so on, so he didn't think anything of it at first. He said he knew that he had eventually used maybe $200 of my money (i.e. of the $1500 min balance that I always keep in the account) and honestly didn't realize that it was more like $1000. I told him that he shouldn't have used any of the money without asking. His emotional response throughout the conversation was mostly deer-in-the-headlights shock, embarrassment, and frustration that I didn't understand that what he did was OK given that he had planned to pay me back. Even now, he occasionaly expresses frustration with me if I bring up the fact that he has still not paid me back. He thinks that I should forgive and forget, since he has explained how it happened and has promised to pay me back when he can. I've told him over and over that I knew he didn't intend to do anything to hurt me and that I'm not angry with him anymore but that it did hurt me, and I still feel uneasy that he did something that put me in harm's way without telling me (and, further, didn't tell me when given a chance - i.e. when I asked him how he was getting by without an income). In general, one of his complaints about me is that I don't "let things go" after he has apologized. I have said time and time again, though, that I am not angry at him and don't harbor any negative feelings toward him, but I also cannot magically forget what happened (not to mention forget that he still hasn't paid me back). He gets very offended if I call it stealing because, in his mind, it was nothing like stealing. Honestly, it has been hard keeping to myself my lingering feelings of discomfort about what happened.
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:11 AM on August 9, 2015
posted by NeverGrowSoOldAgain at 11:11 AM on August 9, 2015
What ... the what???
I can tell why you are frustrated in this relationship. He can't manage his own finances, he can't talk to you about it but clearly has no problem taking money from you, you have to walk on eggshells because he withdraws if you express any emotion that could be remotely interpreted as a negative one. You can't even call him for comfort when something scary goes down at your apartment building. You say that he is sweet and considerate but ... when? How? There are many men out there who won't freeze you out like this chump, who can manage their own bills without dipping into your accounts, and would be more than happy to reassure you and have a chat when something sketchy happens. Being single would be better than conforming to his ... whatever is going on with him. Good lord.
You sound like you more or less have your life together! Don't waste your energy on a crappy relationship that doesn't meet your needs. Go to individual therapy for yourself.
posted by stowaway at 11:37 AM on August 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
I can tell why you are frustrated in this relationship. He can't manage his own finances, he can't talk to you about it but clearly has no problem taking money from you, you have to walk on eggshells because he withdraws if you express any emotion that could be remotely interpreted as a negative one. You can't even call him for comfort when something scary goes down at your apartment building. You say that he is sweet and considerate but ... when? How? There are many men out there who won't freeze you out like this chump, who can manage their own bills without dipping into your accounts, and would be more than happy to reassure you and have a chat when something sketchy happens. Being single would be better than conforming to his ... whatever is going on with him. Good lord.
You sound like you more or less have your life together! Don't waste your energy on a crappy relationship that doesn't meet your needs. Go to individual therapy for yourself.
posted by stowaway at 11:37 AM on August 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
Wow, that is big stuff, way bigger than the communication issues in your original question. It sounds like the money situation and lingering fallout is likely the cause of the arguments and strain you're both feeling, rather than ASD or anxiety. You're still (understandably) angry about him taking the money, and he's stressed out about paying it back and possibly resentful about the whole thing. If I were you, I'd put aside worry about his communication stuff for the time being and spend some time acknowledging the broken trust to yourself and getting in touch with how you're actually feeling before getting deeper into this relationship, because it's not going to go away. Once you're in better touch with your emotions over the situation (it can be anger! anger is okay when someone broke your trust!), you can take it from there. If you both really want to work on this relationship, you'll have to be honest with him, and he needs to do the same.
posted by thetortoise at 11:55 AM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 11:55 AM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Look, people make mistakes. But when people make mistakes, think their motivations count more than their actions (and it doesn't get more clear of an impact on you than being worried you can't pay your rent...this is not a situation where you're arguing about whether the toilet paper roll hangs this way or that) and then blame you for continuing to care that they betrayed your trust and access to your money, this is like huge neon red flags waving.
It sounds like a lot of your conversations go that way.
I need to be able to express my emotions freely (albeit not carelessly) and am now afraid that this will drive my boyfriend away from me precisely when I most need his support. I want to be constructive but just don't really know how to deal with this. Has anyone dealt with something similar (as either partner)? Suggestions? Insights?
My insight is that your boyfriend, for whatever reason, doesn't fully grasp in a concrete way that his actions, withdrawing, or hangups have an impact on relationships, and that when they do you get to have feelings about them. Even when he brought up therapy it wasn't to improve his communication skills or deal with his aversion to conflict, it was to fix the relationship so he can work better. Whether he intends it or not the impact on you is to feel either that you're crazy for having perfectly normal feelings, or to shut you down. I don't know if this is salvageable. But I don't think it's a communication issue, I think it's a perspective/respect issue.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:58 AM on August 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
It sounds like a lot of your conversations go that way.
I need to be able to express my emotions freely (albeit not carelessly) and am now afraid that this will drive my boyfriend away from me precisely when I most need his support. I want to be constructive but just don't really know how to deal with this. Has anyone dealt with something similar (as either partner)? Suggestions? Insights?
My insight is that your boyfriend, for whatever reason, doesn't fully grasp in a concrete way that his actions, withdrawing, or hangups have an impact on relationships, and that when they do you get to have feelings about them. Even when he brought up therapy it wasn't to improve his communication skills or deal with his aversion to conflict, it was to fix the relationship so he can work better. Whether he intends it or not the impact on you is to feel either that you're crazy for having perfectly normal feelings, or to shut you down. I don't know if this is salvageable. But I don't think it's a communication issue, I think it's a perspective/respect issue.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:58 AM on August 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
Yeah, no.
Two things really stand out to me here. First, you are doing all the work. He's only explaining why it is that he is allowed to treat you so disrespectfully and also why you should be ok with it. The fact that you are the one asking this question is further proof that he is making you feel like his behavior is something that you need to mold yourself around. Go back and read a bunch of human relations posts on here and you'll start to see that there are plenty of people who post about themselves. They may say something like this: "I have this problem where I shut down when I perceive any negativity from my partner and its adversely affecting our relationship. What can I do to fix this?" See the difference? That's someone who recognizes that his behavior is a problem and someone who wants to have a healthy relationship. Your boyfriend is not doing that. And you can respond again and try to defend him but just realize that that is you absolving him of being responsible for his actions.
And the second thing? He stole from you. He still has not paid it back. And he won't even say it was wrong! That's a black and white deal breaker to me. (Also, he wasn't embarrassed about it when you found out - he was upset only because he got caught)
posted by dawkins_7 at 11:58 AM on August 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Two things really stand out to me here. First, you are doing all the work. He's only explaining why it is that he is allowed to treat you so disrespectfully and also why you should be ok with it. The fact that you are the one asking this question is further proof that he is making you feel like his behavior is something that you need to mold yourself around. Go back and read a bunch of human relations posts on here and you'll start to see that there are plenty of people who post about themselves. They may say something like this: "I have this problem where I shut down when I perceive any negativity from my partner and its adversely affecting our relationship. What can I do to fix this?" See the difference? That's someone who recognizes that his behavior is a problem and someone who wants to have a healthy relationship. Your boyfriend is not doing that. And you can respond again and try to defend him but just realize that that is you absolving him of being responsible for his actions.
And the second thing? He stole from you. He still has not paid it back. And he won't even say it was wrong! That's a black and white deal breaker to me. (Also, he wasn't embarrassed about it when you found out - he was upset only because he got caught)
posted by dawkins_7 at 11:58 AM on August 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Even now, he occasionaly expresses frustration with me if I bring up the fact that he has still not paid me back. He thinks that I should forgive and forget, since he has explained how it happened and has promised to pay me back when he can. [...] In general, one of his complaints about me is that I don't "let things go" after he has apologized.
This is pretty terrible. "I'm sorry" isn't a magic incantation which gets rid of all the harm and you can forget everything and move on. Actually making amends can require work -- like paying you back. (Which, though he might think he intends to do, he is never actually going to do.)
Maybe once you have been made whole, you can forgive and forget. But "I said I'm sorry! Why isn't that enough! Why do you keep harping on the $1000 that I stole from you as well as the other money you lent me that I never paid back!" is adolescent bullshit.
posted by jeather at 12:22 PM on August 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is pretty terrible. "I'm sorry" isn't a magic incantation which gets rid of all the harm and you can forget everything and move on. Actually making amends can require work -- like paying you back. (Which, though he might think he intends to do, he is never actually going to do.)
Maybe once you have been made whole, you can forgive and forget. But "I said I'm sorry! Why isn't that enough! Why do you keep harping on the $1000 that I stole from you as well as the other money you lent me that I never paid back!" is adolescent bullshit.
posted by jeather at 12:22 PM on August 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
Every post you write to "respond" (which appears to be you trying to tell us, "no, no, he's not that bad") contains information that makes me more and more alarmed and scared for you.
His emotional response throughout the conversation was mostly deer-in-the-headlights shock, embarrassment, and frustration that I didn't understand that what he did was OK given that he had planned to pay me back. Even now, he occasionaly expresses frustration with me if I bring up the fact that he has still not paid me back. He thinks that I should forgive and forget, since he has explained how it happened and has promised to pay me back when he can. I've told him over and over that I knew he didn't intend to do anything to hurt me and that I'm not angry with him anymore but that it did hurt me, and I still feel uneasy that he did something that put me in harm's way without telling me (and, further, didn't tell me when given a chance - i.e. when I asked him how he was getting by without an income).
This is absolutely, 100% emotionally abusive. Like, it was just a few days ago cited as a textbook example of emotional abuse in the emotional labor thread. You've been telling us throughout this thread that it's not that he doesn't want to deal with your emotions, it's that he can't because he shuts down. But it sounds like he is completely comfortable talking about your emotions when he's talking about what emotions he wants you to have and criticizing you for not having the right ones and undermining you to the point where you worry that you're wrong to have emotions at all.
The more you write about this relationship, the more I'm really worried about you. I think you need to get out of this relationship. At a bare minimum, I think you need to have your own therapist, someone who has experience helping people who are in abusive relationships, and you need to give him/her this thread and discuss these incidents with someone you can trust who is not going to gaslight you the way your boyfriend does.
I also rescind my earlier recommendation of couples therapy. Couples therapy is specifically not recommended in relationships where one partner is abusing the other, because the abusive partner cannot participate in good faith because he refuses to take responsibility for his role in what is happening in the relationship, and that he wants to blame it all on the abused partner. And it's pretty clear that that's exactly the position your boyfriend is in, and the position he's trying to put you in. Abuse like this is not a relationship problem; it's a him problem, and he needs to be taking the initiative to fix it. But he's not. Instead, he's blaming you. And make no mistake, he will use what you say in therapy against you outside of therapy, just like he's using your disclosure of how you feel about being stolen from against you in subsequent conversations, making it your fault that the relationship isn't working because you refuse to stop having feelings about being the victim of a crime (which is, by the way, ongoing, because he hasn't actually paid restitution).
So don't go to couples therapy. Go to individual therapy to decide whether you're going to put up with being abused by this man. Because he's not going to change, so if the relationship is going to "work," you're going to have to learn to suppress basically all of your feelings and do whatever he wants you to do.
posted by decathecting at 1:55 PM on August 9, 2015 [32 favorites]
His emotional response throughout the conversation was mostly deer-in-the-headlights shock, embarrassment, and frustration that I didn't understand that what he did was OK given that he had planned to pay me back. Even now, he occasionaly expresses frustration with me if I bring up the fact that he has still not paid me back. He thinks that I should forgive and forget, since he has explained how it happened and has promised to pay me back when he can. I've told him over and over that I knew he didn't intend to do anything to hurt me and that I'm not angry with him anymore but that it did hurt me, and I still feel uneasy that he did something that put me in harm's way without telling me (and, further, didn't tell me when given a chance - i.e. when I asked him how he was getting by without an income).
This is absolutely, 100% emotionally abusive. Like, it was just a few days ago cited as a textbook example of emotional abuse in the emotional labor thread. You've been telling us throughout this thread that it's not that he doesn't want to deal with your emotions, it's that he can't because he shuts down. But it sounds like he is completely comfortable talking about your emotions when he's talking about what emotions he wants you to have and criticizing you for not having the right ones and undermining you to the point where you worry that you're wrong to have emotions at all.
The more you write about this relationship, the more I'm really worried about you. I think you need to get out of this relationship. At a bare minimum, I think you need to have your own therapist, someone who has experience helping people who are in abusive relationships, and you need to give him/her this thread and discuss these incidents with someone you can trust who is not going to gaslight you the way your boyfriend does.
I also rescind my earlier recommendation of couples therapy. Couples therapy is specifically not recommended in relationships where one partner is abusing the other, because the abusive partner cannot participate in good faith because he refuses to take responsibility for his role in what is happening in the relationship, and that he wants to blame it all on the abused partner. And it's pretty clear that that's exactly the position your boyfriend is in, and the position he's trying to put you in. Abuse like this is not a relationship problem; it's a him problem, and he needs to be taking the initiative to fix it. But he's not. Instead, he's blaming you. And make no mistake, he will use what you say in therapy against you outside of therapy, just like he's using your disclosure of how you feel about being stolen from against you in subsequent conversations, making it your fault that the relationship isn't working because you refuse to stop having feelings about being the victim of a crime (which is, by the way, ongoing, because he hasn't actually paid restitution).
So don't go to couples therapy. Go to individual therapy to decide whether you're going to put up with being abused by this man. Because he's not going to change, so if the relationship is going to "work," you're going to have to learn to suppress basically all of your feelings and do whatever he wants you to do.
posted by decathecting at 1:55 PM on August 9, 2015 [32 favorites]
I agree with decathecting wholeheartedly. This is clear financial and emotional abuse. I know that's sometimes hard to see when you're in it, but it's clear to us as these details come out.
Make sure his name is off of your accounts so he can't take any more money out. Take him off of anything else (credit cards, phone accounts) that he could run up without telling you.
I'll come out and say it: he is a liar and a thief and bad for you. An honorable person would get a job -- any job -- to pay you back. He'd flip burgers or mow lawns or beg his parents for a loan.
I've been there. Please get some help, just for you.
posted by 3491again at 2:37 PM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Make sure his name is off of your accounts so he can't take any more money out. Take him off of anything else (credit cards, phone accounts) that he could run up without telling you.
I'll come out and say it: he is a liar and a thief and bad for you. An honorable person would get a job -- any job -- to pay you back. He'd flip burgers or mow lawns or beg his parents for a loan.
I've been there. Please get some help, just for you.
posted by 3491again at 2:37 PM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
And I do want to say, "he is abusing you," is perfectly compatible with, "he is a good person deep down, and a lot of what he is doing is not out of malice, but out of an unintentional disregard for your feelings." I think that when you're defending him in your updates, what you're trying to say is that he's not a terrible person. And that may very well be true. You don't have to believe that he is a terrible person in order to believe that he is hurting you and that he is either unwilling or unable to stop hurting you.
This is a "you need to get off my foot" situation. It doesn't matter whether he means to hurt you, or whether he has a medical condition that makes it harder for him to stop hurting you, or whether he has trouble understanding how he has hurt you. You are making him aware that he is hurting you. The only reasonable response is for him to say, "I'm sorry I have hurt you," and then for him to work, both on his own and with you, to stop hurting you. Instead, your guy is trying to tell you that you are not hurt, or that you being hurt makes him hurt more and therefore you should focus on his hurt, or that you are wrong to be hurt, or that it's not his fault that you are hurt, or a million other things that allow him to continue to hurt you and put all the responsibility for him hurting you on you. And it doesn't matter how wonderful he is otherwise: that's not a healthy relationship. Even if it's an accident or not his fault or hard for him, that's not a healthy relationship.
posted by decathecting at 2:45 PM on August 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
This is a "you need to get off my foot" situation. It doesn't matter whether he means to hurt you, or whether he has a medical condition that makes it harder for him to stop hurting you, or whether he has trouble understanding how he has hurt you. You are making him aware that he is hurting you. The only reasonable response is for him to say, "I'm sorry I have hurt you," and then for him to work, both on his own and with you, to stop hurting you. Instead, your guy is trying to tell you that you are not hurt, or that you being hurt makes him hurt more and therefore you should focus on his hurt, or that you are wrong to be hurt, or that it's not his fault that you are hurt, or a million other things that allow him to continue to hurt you and put all the responsibility for him hurting you on you. And it doesn't matter how wonderful he is otherwise: that's not a healthy relationship. Even if it's an accident or not his fault or hard for him, that's not a healthy relationship.
posted by decathecting at 2:45 PM on August 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
If you were my friend, I would be jumping up and down and making powerpoint presentations to show you how messed up this is.
Please get out.
posted by heathrowga at 4:44 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Please get out.
posted by heathrowga at 4:44 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had a boyfriend for several years who was on the spectrum, and who sounds like yours in a lot of ways - down to the difficulties with money management and the "freezing". Like your bank account story, my ex once borrowed something valuable of mine without permission and broke it - purely by accident, but still, I was angry and upset - and he couldn't understand why. Emotionally, we never communicated well; it's like we spoke in different registers and we couldn't hear each other.
But I loved him for many reasons, and we even tried couples counseling. Finally, after I came back from a trip to see family that he knew I was stressed out about and he didn't even ask me how it was or how I was doing, I ended the relationship.
in our case, the differences just happen to lie in somewhat different places than what I'm accustomed to
I told myself that, too. But what I eventually realized is that I need my relationships to be built on a core of fundamental compatability. Beyond that core, there's a wide range where differences can fall -- anywhere from minor to significant-but-surmountable. But key differences in emotional communication are core, for me. The gap between us was too wide to bridge - not without a lot of suffering on my part. And I wasn't down for that.
posted by southern_sky at 5:50 PM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
But I loved him for many reasons, and we even tried couples counseling. Finally, after I came back from a trip to see family that he knew I was stressed out about and he didn't even ask me how it was or how I was doing, I ended the relationship.
in our case, the differences just happen to lie in somewhat different places than what I'm accustomed to
I told myself that, too. But what I eventually realized is that I need my relationships to be built on a core of fundamental compatability. Beyond that core, there's a wide range where differences can fall -- anywhere from minor to significant-but-surmountable. But key differences in emotional communication are core, for me. The gap between us was too wide to bridge - not without a lot of suffering on my part. And I wasn't down for that.
posted by southern_sky at 5:50 PM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
I encouraged him to see a therapist...
I suspect that my boyfriend is on the autism spectrum
Unlike some of the people in this thread, I wouldn't be so quick to write this guy off.
He sounds like he is on the autism spectrum to me. If he is, this fact cannot be changed, but awareness of his neurodiversity, and appropriate counseling can be a great help, as can awareness of his differences on your part.
In particular, if he has ASD, sending him to a therapist who is not experienced in this area will be a complete waste of time, so looking into a diagnosis 1st might be productive step.
Good luck.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 10:00 PM on August 9, 2015
I suspect that my boyfriend is on the autism spectrum
Unlike some of the people in this thread, I wouldn't be so quick to write this guy off.
He sounds like he is on the autism spectrum to me. If he is, this fact cannot be changed, but awareness of his neurodiversity, and appropriate counseling can be a great help, as can awareness of his differences on your part.
In particular, if he has ASD, sending him to a therapist who is not experienced in this area will be a complete waste of time, so looking into a diagnosis 1st might be productive step.
Good luck.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 10:00 PM on August 9, 2015
His emotional response throughout the conversation was mostly deer-in-the-headlights shock, embarrassment, and frustration that I didn't understand that what he did was OK given that he had planned to pay me back
Wow. That is some bullshit right there. You're not dating someone on the spectrum, you're dating someone with a fundamentally broken moral compass.
posted by MsMolly at 10:12 PM on August 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Wow. That is some bullshit right there. You're not dating someone on the spectrum, you're dating someone with a fundamentally broken moral compass.
posted by MsMolly at 10:12 PM on August 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
This guy is taking advantage of you and turning it around on you. I don't know if he is deliberately making it about communication issues, or if it's just that framing it as if you're merely having a lot of fairly normal communication issues is working out well for him. I'd almost be tempted to see it as being highly deliberate and that taking all this money from you, and then making you basically extort it from him, is his way of getting his hooks into you more deeply. But that is an extremely jaundiced view and I agree with decathecting that he may not be a horrible person deep down. This may just be his idea of how to act with people, how to get the help he needs. But I don't think you are going to make any progress with this guy by continuing to talk things out on a meta level. And trying to do so is going to wind up frustrating you and worse, making you feel like a failure when in fact this guy is inevitably going to keep acting this way until he gets some serious consequences.
posted by BibiRose at 7:29 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by BibiRose at 7:29 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Okay when I first read this question I was going to respond to tell you about my relationship that, based on that initial question, seemed nearly the same as yours. And I was going to tell you that nope, it's not gonna work unless you want to do all the compromising, emotional work, placating, balancing while at the same time sacrificing any emotional support you might need or basically even just being able to express your emotions in a normal, functional way.
But then I read your updates and I'm not sure that what I was going to say even matters. This relationship is broken. I mean, without the updates you can explain a lot of his behavior as on the spectrum, or selfish, or immature, or short-sighted, or lots of other things. But all those things don't explain him doing things like stealing money from you and then acting like you're unreasonable for being upset about it. If I were you I'd get back whatever I could and then get out.
posted by Polychrome at 7:33 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
But then I read your updates and I'm not sure that what I was going to say even matters. This relationship is broken. I mean, without the updates you can explain a lot of his behavior as on the spectrum, or selfish, or immature, or short-sighted, or lots of other things. But all those things don't explain him doing things like stealing money from you and then acting like you're unreasonable for being upset about it. If I were you I'd get back whatever I could and then get out.
posted by Polychrome at 7:33 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Let's say you squish yourself down in to the exact shape he wants. You're never upset, you're fine with him stealing $1000 from you and not making rent, you're never scared when people violate your space or annoyed when he breaks plans without giving a reason, you never ask him for any support.
What then?
What do you get out of that? Relationships are a two way street, and it seems that your needs are very much secondary, if considered at all.
Whether fighting 2 times a year or 2 times a day is normal is not the question. Whether he has Asperger's or any other spectrum disorder isn't the question*. The question should be, what are you getting from this, and is it worth the price? I would say, based on what you've written, the price is too high.
*I'm not saying people on the spectrum aren't deserving of love or relationships! They are. However, it's hard if you're neurotypical and the person on the spectrum isn't willing to compromise or work on meeting you halfway. At that point it's less about spectrum vs. neurotypical and more about basic incompatibilities.
posted by RogueTech at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
What then?
What do you get out of that? Relationships are a two way street, and it seems that your needs are very much secondary, if considered at all.
Whether fighting 2 times a year or 2 times a day is normal is not the question. Whether he has Asperger's or any other spectrum disorder isn't the question*. The question should be, what are you getting from this, and is it worth the price? I would say, based on what you've written, the price is too high.
*I'm not saying people on the spectrum aren't deserving of love or relationships! They are. However, it's hard if you're neurotypical and the person on the spectrum isn't willing to compromise or work on meeting you halfway. At that point it's less about spectrum vs. neurotypical and more about basic incompatibilities.
posted by RogueTech at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
I seem to have some kind of weird affinity with people on the spectrum--two long-term relationships with Aspies, several close friends, I relate well to autistic children, etc. So I want you to know that I have some experience when I say that Asperger's doesn't make someone an asshole or abusive, but abusers or creepers will absolutely hide behind the fiction that it does.
Everything you're describing sounds so much like my college boyfriend: freezing up, being totally overwhelmed by even tiny, justified expressions of frustration, never ever admitting he'd done anything wrong, putting all the blame on me and my "out-of-control" emotions. He really was on the spectrum... but he was also a dick, and used his Aspie-ness as an excuse to police every single thing I said and did. He became increasingly emotionally abusive until I dumped him.
By comparison, I later dated someone on the spectrum who would sometimes briefly freeze up in emotional situations, but would take some time/go on a walk and then come back and address the issue in a reasonable way. It was sometimes really challenging, but he had basic emotional coping skills, and didn't act like the problem was all me.
And the money thing... honey. I would consider that an immediate breakup offense. Maaaaaybe not if he was really accepting responsibility, showed sincere remorse, and was actively paying it back. Maybe. But not understanding (or pretending to not understand) that he did something wrong? I would be outta there. And then I would press civil charges. Best of luck to you.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 8:57 AM on August 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Everything you're describing sounds so much like my college boyfriend: freezing up, being totally overwhelmed by even tiny, justified expressions of frustration, never ever admitting he'd done anything wrong, putting all the blame on me and my "out-of-control" emotions. He really was on the spectrum... but he was also a dick, and used his Aspie-ness as an excuse to police every single thing I said and did. He became increasingly emotionally abusive until I dumped him.
By comparison, I later dated someone on the spectrum who would sometimes briefly freeze up in emotional situations, but would take some time/go on a walk and then come back and address the issue in a reasonable way. It was sometimes really challenging, but he had basic emotional coping skills, and didn't act like the problem was all me.
And the money thing... honey. I would consider that an immediate breakup offense. Maaaaaybe not if he was really accepting responsibility, showed sincere remorse, and was actively paying it back. Maybe. But not understanding (or pretending to not understand) that he did something wrong? I would be outta there. And then I would press civil charges. Best of luck to you.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 8:57 AM on August 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
This is not to say they can't be changed; I literally don't know on that point, but I think a couple's therapist would be a good first step to figure that out. A trained third party observer could maybe detect certain dynamics and habits invisible to both of you. If your partner is too tense to go into couple's therapy immediately, it may be something to suggest after he's gotten a bit more comfortable in/with individual therapy.
posted by obliterati at 10:03 PM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]