For me it's never "F*ck Yes"

August 7, 2015 7:11 AM

Referring to the title of this article: F*ck Yes or No. I never feel so charmed by someone I meet that I am no-question into them. How do people like me create meaningful romantic relationships?

In theory I like people quite a lot, but on an individual basis it is difficult for me to feel unaffected warmth towards anyone who is not family or a childhood friend. I'm not sure if this is common. I do feel warmth for people more easily if I'm hanging out with them and I get a little drunk, so maybe this is a form of anxiety?

I also have learned a distrust of attractive women (which, even as I write it, I cringe about making this generality). Thoughtlessness and entitlement. This is not great, because I'm a good-looking man and I've only ever felt attraction to good-looking women. My two attempts to "force it" by dating interesting women I was not attracted to went poorly for everyone. :(

These two things together make dating hard for me. I do a pretty good job of landing a coffee date, but when I'm there I never feel sure I want more than that with this person. What should people like me do? I think the answer is "keep trying"... but what about that old joke: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." "Then don't do that." That sounds pretty wise too.

posted by anonymous to Human Relations (25 answers total)

You don't have to date anyone, you know. It doesn't sound like you like dating, or relationships, and that's OK.

You have my permission to stop dating if you don't want to do it. Being pair bonded is not some moral imperative.
posted by phunniemee at 7:15 AM on August 7, 2015 [26 favorites]

Not sure how old you are, but have you made friends post-childhood?

Some of us seem to build romantic feelings when we already have that friendship layer firmly in place. Perhaps you are among us.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:18 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

The entrepreneur Derek Sivers once wrote a blog post where he said, “If I’m not saying ‘Hell Yeah!’ to something, then I say no.” It served him well in the business world and now I’d like to apply it to the dating world.

Haha, yeah, this is lifehack glurge. That stuff is intended to get people to read by making complex things seems way simpler than they are (think of the "1 weird old trick" banner ads). There's no need to take this seriously.

I, too, take a while to warm up to people, both in friendships and relationships. Like phunnimee says, you don't have to date anyone, but don't beat yourself for not falling in insta-love, like Adam Sandler in a movie. Take your time and get to know people, both romantical-style and regular-style. If it doesn't work out; that's OK. Most people meet several potential partners that do not work out, and then perhaps one that does work out.
posted by ignignokt at 7:22 AM on August 7, 2015 [46 favorites]

I also have learned a distrust of attractive women (which, even as I write it, I cringe about making this generality). Thoughtlessness and entitlement. This is not great, because I'm a good-looking man and I've only ever felt attraction to good-looking women.

this is going to be something that you're going to want to talk to a therapist about- especially since "good looks" are like SUPER subjective- so basically what you're saying is that if you want to bang someone, it makes you paranoid?


as for not having a super spark, well. Sorry dude- that is super normal. and actually better for you. Your affection for someone should grow in the time you know them while you're dating. If there is a super intense BOOM when you first start going out- that shit is limerence and it has no bearing on if you are actually a match or not.

What you want is to go out with someone a few times and keep seeing them if you continue to be attracted and enjoy their company more each time.

HOWEVER if you really distrust all the women you're interested in- do them a favor and get that fixed BEFORE you start a relationship. PLEASE.
posted by Blisterlips at 7:22 AM on August 7, 2015 [25 favorites]

I read that article and that is ... not good advice. I mean, it could be good advice if you were the exact sort of person it is written for having the exact sort of problem it's describing, but you're saying you're not that kind of person nor having that kind of problem so it's not good advice for you. So you can go ahead and ignore it.

Honestly, if you've "learned a distrust of attractive women" you probably have other issues about judging women before getting to know them and with women in general. That sort of "distrust" doesn't happen in a vacuum where otherwise your personality is A+ wonderful when it comes to having relationships of any sort with women. And that's probably tripping you up more than you realize considering that your working theory seems to be that the sort of women you are attracted to have an inherent flaw that keeps you from dating them. If you keep dating different women who have nothing in common but the fact that you're attracted to them, and you're encountering the same sort of negative stuff that has led you to have a blanket judgement, then I would venture to say the problem's in you.

Read less crap like the kind you linked. Go find what women have to say on the subject and read it and absorb it. I bet it won't be pleasant, especially if you start recognizing yourself in the more negative portrayals, but it'll be useful to see why you feel the way you do and how you can stop feeling that way. Otherwise you'll remain stuck in this catch-22 where you're only attracted to women you can't trust enough to actually date.
posted by griphus at 7:23 AM on August 7, 2015 [22 favorites]

seriously that article is terrible. Boundaries are good in an early relationship. Don't date the people who demand/profess ecstatic passion in the first three dates. They don't tend to be super stable.
posted by Blisterlips at 7:27 AM on August 7, 2015 [17 favorites]

I'm of the "know immediately" type, but one of my good friends is of the "never knows immediately" sorts and so we've talked about it a lot. She's found that she just needs to give things at least a few dates to see how things develop (unless someone acts offensively or reveals lots of bad red flags, etc.). So, unless things seem obviously bad, she'll give things a month or so before making a decision one way or another. I think this is a totally legitmate way to go if it takes you a while to warm up to new people (even though it would never work for me).

I would also think about this distrust of attractive women thing. I'm not sure what you consider attractive...I mean, to paint this in the least attractive light, if you're, say, a 40 year old guy who only finds 19-year-old Playboy bunnies attractive, yeah, there's probably going to be a bad dynamic there 99% of the time. I guess I would say that while obviously you don't want to actively date people who you feel zero attraction to, maybe focus on other aspects (personality, does she make you laugh, do you have interesting conversation) first, and then from the category of people for whom that's true, see who you're attracted to. If it's really the case that there are zero people who you find both interesting and attractive, then you've got bigger issues that you should definitely deal with in therapy or similar before trying to date.
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:29 AM on August 7, 2015 [6 favorites]

IMO, that article is great advice. I've seen far too many people, too much heartbreak, from people trying to press bad situations. That article explains why DTMFA is a thing.

It's a numbers and exposure game. It's not working after meeting a few people? Meet dozens. Go do things you've never done before. Visit places you've never been. You'll become a better person for it, and you'll meet different types of people.

It'll work. You have to be patient. You may have to spend a lot of time alone. Marathon, not a sprint.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:34 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

I forgot where I read this but it was an article for women about men with attachment issues. Men who couldn't do healthy pair bonding. I don't know but googling men's attachment issues might bring up useful information.

It's shallow to think that women can only be attractive or interesting. The part of the article you linked to that you should pay attention to is treating a woman like a human being and with empathy.

The inability to form intimate relationships with women or being unable to see them as human beings with depth is something a therapist could possibly help you with. Because it's unhealthy to just distrust attractive women and you could work on your insecurity issues or whatever it is that makes you believe objectifying women is useful.
posted by discopolo at 7:48 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

So, my first boyfriend was a lot like you. Exclusively attracted to only pretty girls. Was never really all that into us. Spent a lot of time encouraging me to be as pretty as possible. Basically had a lot of sexism and misogyny all up in his business.

Turns out, dude is not straight and had trained himself to seek out attractive women only because he thought they gave him extra points towards being a legit masculine man. Obviously I am not suggesting that you are gay because you only seem to go for attractive women, but since you're having trouble with it, I wonder if you feeling like you gotta force attraction is your subconscious going, "wrong type, bro!" YMMV, just throwing it out there.
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:49 AM on August 7, 2015 [17 favorites]

I can be like this sometimes. It's worth looking into dismissive-avoidant personality types Not because you have a personality flaw or a mental illness, but you can see how it's a bit of a self-preservation technique. Keeping yourself from fully connecting also can help keep you "safe" for some values of safe. I grew up in an unsafe household, in some ways, and I can keep people at arms length (including my partner) as a way of making sure no one ever gets close enough to hurt me. I'm working on it. Understanding it is a big part of it. This may or may not be you but it is one reason that people can put up barriers like that. As griphus says, you probably have a few things going on but I'd be cautious in dating bringing some of your issues with women to the table without having spent some time reflecting on what you think is really going on.
posted by jessamyn at 7:52 AM on August 7, 2015 [14 favorites]

The best relationship I've ever been in (the one I'm in now) took a lot of time to get to the point where it was even a romance. We met because of circumstance, we kept in touch because we had mutual interests, and it just flowed into what it is today. You don't always know right away, and sometimes what you do know right away is just physical (which is an important aspect of many relationships, including my own), but the day-to-day that keeps things going isn't a "Fuck, yes!" it's more of an "All right, this too."
posted by xingcat at 7:57 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

Huge generality ahead: yes, good looking people often end up together. But good looking women are often willing to forgo good looks in men for other qualities.

Solution: cultivate other qualities women are looking for. Lots of guys think they can "coast" on their looks. Don't be one of them. Believe you're not good-looking and work extra hard to make up for it.
posted by quincunx at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

The "Fuck yes" line of reasoning is a good one. I think you have to apply it incrementally, appropriate to stage you find yourself at. For instance, if we take the situation you have outlined here:
I do a pretty good job of landing a coffee date, but when I'm there I never feel sure I want more than that with this person.

Stage one was you met someone and you were interested enough that the answer to, "do I want to talk to this person more over coffee" was a Fuck yes, so you proceed to the date. While on the date, you don't need to answer the question "do I want something more with this person". You can just experience the company and the date in the moment and process in the days afterwards, is this a F* yes or no. F* yes might not be for "do I want something more", it just might be, F* yes I want to spend some more time with her. The key is asking yourself the right question for the stage it is at.
posted by incolorinred at 8:06 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

Obviously, attraction has to come into it, but in terms of the people I've felt "fuck yes" about, it's not so much that I've been "charmed by" them, in the sense of being persuaded into attraction by the sheer force of their magnetism or whatever, so much as there's been a pretty quick recognition that this person is on my wavelength, and gets what I'm saying, and I get what they're saying. Things "click". It feels good to be around them on a basic level - there's an easy rapport, comfort, trust. Verbal communication is smooth and well-timed (it's not necessarily performative banter, although that can be fun - just, it's really easy to talk to them). It's clear we have shared values, sense of humour, etc.

This doesn't happen that often, but it does happen, both with people with whom there's a sexual element and new (platonic) friends. Both people go, "hey! you're one of my kind", like in that INXS song.

For me, that kind of connection trumps looks every time. It doesn't happen unless you allow yourself to be vulnerable, though - do you do that? Are you open to connecting in that way?

Thoughtlessness and entitlement.

I don't know what this is about, but I do think you need to unpack it. What's "thoughtlessness" mean? Maybe what you're hoping for is for the other person to do all the emotional work, but you're attracted to people with strong boundaries. Maybe you're putting people on pedestals to start with and contributing to setting a particular dynamic in motion that way. I don't know, but you definitely should work that out.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:11 AM on August 7, 2015 [17 favorites]

Some questions which come to mind:

1. How are you on trusting people in general? Would you say that you trust people fairly easily based on standard [doesn't seem skeevy, doesn't seem to lie to people, etc] metrics? How do you feel as you go through your day? Do you feel relaxed around strangers? In what situations are you very vigilant?

2. How do you know that someone's attractive? Obviously, you look at someone and want to look again, yes, that's one thing - but I think people usually are attracted to different people in different ways, not all of which are easy to identify and some of which are counterproductive. (Like, there's basic immediate obvious physical attraction; there's "I am desperately attracted to you because I can already tell that you'll mess with my self esteem and I unconsciously want to punish myself"; there's "I am so attracted to you but you are a non-standard body type and I sublimate this into thinking that you're hideous"...all real, actual types of attraction experienced by me and almost none easily comprehensible until I was in my mid-thirties.)

3. What kinds of relationships with women (or important people in your life) did you have and observe when you were a child and a teen? Which ones were good, which ones were bad and why?

This is just an observation, but: "good-looking women who are thoughtless and entitled" sure do exist. However, I think it's easy to get into an emotional space where you only see thoughtless and entitled women as members of the category "attractive", like thoughtlessness and entitledness are themselves wound up with attractiveness in your psyche, even though you consciously hate those qualities. So there could be the nicest pin-up model in the world living next door to you - so to speak - and you're walking right past her because the "attractive" woman in your life is the mean lady in HR, because "mean" is a component of "attractive" to your unconscious.

I think we often tend to talk as though "attractive" is purely hard-wired, when it's really substantially about stuff churning around in your unconscious. For many years, for instance, I had a lot of trouble being attracted to non-mean people - show me a nice twin and a mean twin, and I'd pick the mean twin every time.

Also, I think it's worth distinguishing between "thoughtless and entitled" and "has had a particular experience". I have, for instance, a freakishly beautiful friend whose life has been - thought pretty difficult in some ways - an endless round of people paying lots and lots of attention to her, validating her regardless of what she does or says, giving her stuff, etc. My friend isn't a selfish person, but there are things that she has sometimes assumed are true for everyone that are only true for her, because that's been her experience, and she is very used to people pursuing her primarily for her looks. Having people do stuff for you all the time and validate you whether you're being nice or horrible isn't actually as great as it sounds. (Even leaving aside intensified sexual harassment or other downsides of beauty.)
posted by Frowner at 8:24 AM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]

Even here on MetaFilter I frequently hear the advice (paraphrased) that if someone isn't demonstrably trying to find every possible opportunity to see and talk to you, then they're probably not interested. This is good advice for some personality types, but ignores people who feel shy and socially anxious about reaching out, or people like you who just naturally take a while to warm up. I think something more widely applicable than Fuck Yes or No is I Feel Comfortable and Relaxed with This Person or No. Sometimes the lightbulb takes a while to switch on with romantic/physical attraction but I think it starts with a feeling that the other person is someone who makes you feel secure.

And yeah. Break down those assumptions. Therapy, for one thing, can help a lot with working through long-held assumptions and knee-jerk thoughts, so that is why people are recommending it. It's not "you are mentally ill, seek medical help" so much as "this stuff is easier when a compassionate person is guiding you through it". Another way is seeking out women's perspective by finding more opportunities to interact with women in a non-romantic capacity, and reading fiction, poetry, and memoirs by women who identify as feminist.

Here's what Harvard's Project Implicit has to say about overcoming biases (I've done secondary research about implicit bias in a professional capacity and this looks like an accurate summary of the existing literature to me):

"[S]eek experiences that could reverse or undo the patterns that created the unwanted preference. For example, you could choose to avoid watching television shows that promote negative stereotypes of women or minorities. You could read materials that opposes the implicit preference. You could interact with people or learn about people who counter your implicit stereotypes. You can work to remain alert to the existence of the unwanted implicit preference to make sure that it doesn’t influence your overt behavior. You can also try consciously planned actions that will compensate for your implicit preferences. For example, if you have an implicit preference for young people you can try to be friendlier toward elderly people. Research shows that implicit preferences are quite malleable so it is possible to manage and change them if you want to."

posted by capricorn at 9:00 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

"Fuck yes or no" is an excellent guideline for sexual consent, but a lousy one for relationships.

That sort of instant rapport has an extremely high false positive rate. So much so that I consider it a clear sign to slow way the hell down.

A lot of people, especially introverts (which I don't know if you are, but I'm guessing you might be), really want to find a way to cut through all the small talk and bullshit and figure out a way to connect right to the core of another person. Especially when romance is involved, because dating and not finding the right partner is a real drag. There's no shortcut, though. Building a relationship is like growing seeds in a garden: it requires time and regular care, and even then there's a good chance you might not get anything out of it.

If you're striking out with dating, take a break and try building some new platonic friendships. Friendships and relationships have more in common than you might think, and if you're hung up on physical attraction and have trouble trusting other people, working on connecting to people outside of a dating context can help break that down a little.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:20 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

Here are some better articles:

How to pick your life partner Pt 1

How to pick your life partner Pt 2

Re: not feeling warmth towards people you're not already close to, that is entirely normal (although there is obviously variation with some people finding it more easy to be compassionate towards strangers than others). There are practices you can do to work on that, the main one is "lovingkindness" meditation, where you imagine a loved one, express warm thoughts/wishes about them, and gradually extend them to people who are less connected or easy to empathize with, so that it becomes easier to empathize with people on a daily basis without really thinking about it. The book "Search Inside Yourself" has a secularized version of lovingkindness meditation that might be worth checking out.

It would be unusual to feel all warm with a coffee date right off the bat but the idea is you get to know someone to find out if you click and the warmth grows over time, just like it did with your childhood friends. Take breaks from dating as needed, it takes a lot of time and energy, and you can always meet people while going about your life if you work on being more open.
posted by lafemma at 9:24 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

On your question 2: I’ve actually seen this with a couple of my female friends, who are in the grip of this weird catch 22: good-looking men are bad; I only go out with people who are attractive to me, i.e. good-looking; hence, people I go out with are bad, so I shouldn’t go out with them. Who, then, is left to go out with? You can see how they are doomed to be mostly agitated about their love-life (or lack thereof).

I think the fundamental error here is to think that one trait (good-looking) is taken to symbolize all traits (kindness, thoughtfulness, empathy, whatever). In your case, on the strength of one visible thing (they are attractive, or, more subjectively, attractive to you), the package is judged to be bad (BTW, this is frequently done the other way round, with people randomly assuming that someone is mostly ‘yay’/ good because they are deemed good-looking).

What I’d do: make a list of several traits you know you’d really appreciate in a partner (not necessarily your ideal partner). For example: adventurous without being foolhardy, curious without being nosy, not racist/ misogynist/ etc., thoughtful without being the Florence Nightingale type, into football, likes classical music, able to switch off, sensitive, sexy/ attractive TO ME, must click with me, open to intelligent discussion without being overly earnest all the time, compassionate, should be into horses, wants to live in the country, etc. Then decide which of these are musts, and which you can actually live without (personally, I don’t think you should have more than 5 items in your list of must-haves, provided that we roll the’ not racist/ homophobic etc.’ into one).

This may be counterintuitive, but I’d also leave the ‘attractive to me’ and ‘must click with me’ aside during the first meeting/ date. I say this because I know a lot of people who take a bit before warming up in one-to-one scenarios; personally, I hardly ever deeply click with someone right away (regardless of whether or not we have good superficial rapport, something inside me moves quite slowly). I had to meet all of my friends and most of my exes a few times before we really started to bond/ I started to be attracted to them (basically, all of my close relationships took the route several meetings => acquaintance => friend/ lover, rather than stranger =>coffee => lover).

So, for the first few dates, I’d expect my curiosity about the person to be stimulated, possibly also to feel somewhat sexually attracted to them (though, given the way I work, I will not go from 0 to 60 in 30 mins, so it’s more sexually intrigued rather than attracted per se). At the beginning, the ‘Fuck Yes’ would be ‘Yes, I’d like to meet this person again!’, not ‘Yes, I am completely gaga about this person’, or even ‘Yes, I’d like to be in a serious relationship with you, and can we also please have two and a half children and grow old together’ (On preview, what incolorinred said above).

PS People have biases (positive and negative) about all sorts of things. One of the most persistent ones for me was that people who are into classical music are good and sensitive, or that exciting people are good people and vice versa (and I thought I was quite sophisticated about human nature because I didn’t fall for the various looks biases). Poppycock. I struggle with my biases to this day. The only recipe I found for not going apathetic or chronically disenchanted is not to replace one bias with another, but to keep an open mind, remain curious about people in general, and not build if-then short-cuts and categories (if attractive, then entitled, if into classical music, then kind to animals, etc.).
posted by miorita at 9:42 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

My experience: Every time I am all Fuck Yes about a guy, it goes to his head and he promptly turns into an asshole. Best case scenario: I then slap him around verbally, let him know I am not some pathetic loser and he should be flattered and at that point the real negotiation begins. But a lot of times it promptly goes from Fuck Yes to Fuck No at that point.

When I was younger, getting with friends worked for me. Post divorce, this has proven to not work so well. I have wrestled with it. I find it still helps to know them socially. Dating isn't my cup of tea. Random hook ups with strangers isn't either. Knowing someone socially means I can, for example, screen out smokers and other people with deal breaking details. My experience is that a man looking to get into my pants will lie to me or decieve me. He will fail to mention he smokes even though he knows I have serious respiratory problems or he will lie to me and claim he is quitting...just long enough to get me into bed and then he goes right back to smoking and I hear a lot of "Baybee, you gotta understand. It's harrrd. I'm tapering off. Blah blah blah." Yeah, no.

So, while I like people and I like being in a relationship, relationships are hard to work out and I am very cynical about the dating model. It apparently works for some people, but it looks to me like a sutuation where both sides are trying to put on a good face and convince you they are All That while simultaneously trying to get the real scoop on what's behind the facade of the other party. I don't play that game. Knowing someone socially first clears up a lot of details before it gets to the point of negotiating for a sexual relationship.

So I basically politely pre-reject 90% or so of men who act interested by politely not encouraging their interest. Then I wrestle with working it out with the remaining 10%.

An intimate relationship takes time to work out. If you are all Fuck Yes about someone you barely know, as others have suggested, that should be Fuck Yes, I want to have coffee and get to know them better! Not: Fuck Yes, this is True Love and let's get married!

Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 10:14 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

I drive everybody around me crazy, because although I have a "type" or two of guy that appeals to me to look at a tiny bit more than others, I'm not attracted to anyone at all until I've gotten to know them at least a little bit. That might be as short as a conversation over an evening, or it might be something that occurs after I've known them for years. But there's zero interest in me for a response of "oh yeah, I'd hit that right now, all he'd have to do is agree" just to the visual look of a guy. I'm just not built that way.

So I read that article, and I'm thinking, hello, the author doesn't know anybody who works that way... until you get done to the end if you read if you read it all the way through. The "be yes about SOMETHING" part. Either be yes, you want to get to know them better to add them to your friends - or no, you have zero interest. Attraction can come later.
posted by stormyteal at 11:59 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

"Fuck yes" works for people who know right away if they're interested or not. It categorically does not work for people who slowly process that sort of thing. You are a slow decider and should not try this method.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:52 PM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

One of the great things about the modern world is that you don't HAVE TO date or have a partner. You don't have to do it! It's so easy--just don't do it! I cannot tell you how much pain could be avoided if only people JUST DIDN'T DO IT when they didn't want to.

The point of Fuck Yes or No isn't just for you, it's to keep from hurting your potential partner as well.
posted by Violet Hour at 2:37 AM on August 8, 2015

it is difficult for me to feel unaffected warmth towards anyone who is not family or a childhood friend

...is, to me, a different issue than whether you're equipped with an Instant 'Fuck Yes/No' module (which is true and nice for some, but as noted above, otherwise just one of many pop philosophies you are fully free to dismiss). Since drinking sometimes allows you to feel a bit more interpersonal warmth, I wonder if that's a sign that your mind is constantly working REALLY hard (subconsciously if not more) to keep things "cold" with people -- so the drinking just opens up a crack in that, letting a few of those constantly-on-defense-high-alert neurons take a much-needed break. Something to consider, anyway. I agree with Metroid Baby and others that focusing on your difficulty in feeling/building warmth with anyone who you haven't already known/trusted for decades(!) is likely more important than the dating/attraction questions -- and the most valuable groundwork from which warm relationships of many flavors and lengths will develop.

I get a sense from your question that you're instinct is to organize your thoughts and the world into pretty black/white categories, so I can see why the article had special appeal. A few ideas to consider on the dating front:

(1) The world is not divided into "attractive"/"not attractive" people. Way at the margins, sure, there are very few people who would be deemed superficially beautiful/ugly by the majority of people -- but there are still countless really cool people who would love (really love!!) fucking and dating even those "ugly" ones, and/or refuse the "beautiful." You may think you "know" what a 4 or an 8 or a 10 or a 'butterface' is... but that really might just be your well-honed-ability to assess what the rating would likely be of the people who talk like that and view women like that. It's like "Family Feud" -- you've trained your own mind to treat what 100 random audience members would probably say as The Answer. It sounds like that worldview/habit isn't really working well for you, a la "Then don't do that" doctor's advice.

(2) The fact that you consider yourself attractive has no bearing on the "attractiveness" of mate you should expect, be drawn to, or 'deserve.' None, nada, zip. Many people will be turned on/off by you instantly, and many would be turned on/off by you over time -- you really can't know, nor know in advance what they'll look like.

(3) Try for a while to forget about "'everyone'-agrees good-looking" as a proxy for "attractive." Think about desirable -- TO YOU. Think about what sexy confidence looks like, and how someone with it acts and talks and moves. Think about people who are alluring because of their joie de vivre... and the visions you can't help having about how that might translate in bed. Think about people who just have that "something" that either makes whatever their physical features are seem to shine and sparkle, versus those who are "hot" while empty/shallow/mean/entitled/self-centered etc. (and how that just KILLS their appeal for anyone like you who encounters them for more than 5 minutes). It's logical and healthy to have a spidey-sense of distrust for the latter type... but it's odd that you conclude that there aren't thoughtful, un-entitled people all along the "hotness" spectrum... just as there are thoughtless, entitled, or otherwise incompatible-with-you ones.

(4) Back to the world in black/white -- you imply that the two women you were "not attracted to" were "not good-looking/attractive" (below the line, as it were). Surely there are "conventionally attractive" women to whom you're just NOT attracted... right? It sounds like these two you picked weren't even in the overlap of "perhaps not the very-most conventionally attractive" and "I have intriguing physical stirrings about this person."* I'd bet good money that those two women feared/ knew you were faking lust for them -- no surprise that things could "go poorly for everyone" in that situation. That still doesn't merit ruling out ALL non-10s from the pool of people you might develop warm connections with. As griphus noted, it's like the no-win setup is what your psyche WANTS -- and frankly, it's very cool that there's a small part of you that won't just accept that, and is letting/making you ask this question.

(5) Is it possible that your default coldness/distrust/pessimism is a cause for why your past relationships haven't worked? That either similarly cold/distrusting/pessimistic (translate: thoughtless/entitled) people spotted that in you from the begininng, or naturally-warmer people thought/hoped they could change you... or whoever they were, over time they determined that you weren't desirable or good-partner-material to THEM? (no matter how good-looking you are (let alone who follow Instant 'Fuck Yes/No')

I guess one hypothesis here is: your mind has kinda trained you to value (only) how you think the Family Feud audience in the sky would grade your romantic partners versus really KNOWING what turns you on, what/who rewards you as a human being, and feeling fully free to pursue those things. Your default "cold" mode would make a lot of sense if that were the case -- as would drinking be a thing that occasionally lets something through. (I do wonder if your peers seem to prioritize conventional attractiveness over deeper/more nuanced attributes or connections with warmth that can be trusted to endure for decades. As shorthand, are many of their relationships kinda "man cave" vs. "Girls' Night Out / Pinterest (or mommies)"? Regardless, where do you see the kind of relationship YOU want, in people of any age/attractiveness, and what do you think makes them tick? Start keeping an eye for those things in yourself and in others.)

Best of luck to you.

*I couldn't help thinking of "A Reasonable Chub" -- I'd be really interested in your reaction to the "12 Angry Men Inside Amy Schumer" post (and discussion!) previously on Metafilter (including the 'attractiveness' of the men of the jury, now that I think about it)
posted by argonauta at 4:01 PM on August 8, 2015