Can an inveterate slob change? Can an obsessive compulsive relax?
August 4, 2015 5:14 AM Subscribe
My boyfriend doesn't want to move in with me because of my woeful housekeeping. Some things seem totally reasonable (I definitely shouldn't leave shoes on the stairs so he can trip over them), others I find baffling (a necklace left on the kitchen counter, putting my coat over a chair). We have horrible fights about it- and I'm not sure what to do next.
My boyfriend and I would like to move in together. We actually put a deposit on a place to rent together pretty early in our relationship, but his bad credit/debts came to light and I put the kibosh on it. Flash forward a couple of years, I've bought a house, he is pulling himself together financially after lots of effort on his part and lots of begging, cajoling and ultimatum giving on my part.
Well, the tables have turned and it's his turn to put the kibosh on cohabitation- apparently my slatternly habits are a deal breaker for him.
I feel like I'm quite far on the messy side of the spectrum, but he's pretty far along the OCD side. He thinks he is completely reasonable about this and the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense. He might actually be right, I'm such a slob it's hard to tell.
What I'm finding difficult is that we can't seem to talk about it without it turning into a massive row, which isn't really like us.
I want him to feel comfortable and I don't think it's fair for him to be cleaning up after me the whole time- but I just don't seem to see things in the same way. I've tried to improve the things I thought were really bad, like leaving things on the stairs to take up later, or leaving the kitchen messy. But I'll spend some time tidying and think that the place looks OK, and he sees all these problems I don't- magazines left on a table, dumping my bag on the sofa instead of hanging it up, a bag of soda left on the kitchen counter top, because I drink a lot of soda.
I've actually started to wonder if we should break up as I don't know if I'm capable of reaching his standards, and he doesn't want to move in with me unless I do, and I feel so angry and upset when we discuss it. I think I react defensively- possibly because it makes me feel like a naughty child. I asked him once to try to point out what I'm doing wrong, which I think has backfired, because he'll tell me off, I'll pull a face or not immediately fix it, and he gets really frustrated.
He feels incredibly resentful because he has changed his habits with money for me, and he thinks I should be able to do the same as this is just as important for his peace of mind. I feel incredibly resentful because it took a lot of time and practical support from me (I manage our finances for couple activities, I bought him budgeting software). And I have accepted that he will never manage his money the way I would like him to, but so long as he's paying his debts, can afford to get to work at the end of the month, and has some sort of emergency fund so that if he lost his job he would be OK, I don't mind taking on more of the responsibility for budgeting and saving for our future.
So it's this weird soup of issues, because I feel like the housekeeping should be treated as a unique problem, without him dipping into the grievance bank and telling me how he's done something difficult for me, why can't I do the same for him? But when he does bring that up, I get so petty and frustrated that he's expecting perfection from me, while I've accepted 'good enough'.
However! What I consider 'good enough' in terms of tidiness is not necessarily good enough! I'm not a reliable judge- I seem to almost be blind to the things that drive him nuts.
So, my questions:
Can I, an inveterate slattern, improve my ways? Have you? What's worked? I've asked him to write me a checklist but he feels uncomfortable with the thought of this. I've written a checklist, but so far it says :'nothing on the floor' and 'kitchen surfaces clear and clean'. I feel this might be a little basic.
Can my wonderful boyfriend learn to lower his standards so we meet somewhere in the middle? Should he? He does not feel he is particularly particular.
Why do we have such terrible fights about this, and how can we talk about this in a more constructive way?
Thank you if you read this far!
My boyfriend and I would like to move in together. We actually put a deposit on a place to rent together pretty early in our relationship, but his bad credit/debts came to light and I put the kibosh on it. Flash forward a couple of years, I've bought a house, he is pulling himself together financially after lots of effort on his part and lots of begging, cajoling and ultimatum giving on my part.
Well, the tables have turned and it's his turn to put the kibosh on cohabitation- apparently my slatternly habits are a deal breaker for him.
I feel like I'm quite far on the messy side of the spectrum, but he's pretty far along the OCD side. He thinks he is completely reasonable about this and the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense. He might actually be right, I'm such a slob it's hard to tell.
What I'm finding difficult is that we can't seem to talk about it without it turning into a massive row, which isn't really like us.
I want him to feel comfortable and I don't think it's fair for him to be cleaning up after me the whole time- but I just don't seem to see things in the same way. I've tried to improve the things I thought were really bad, like leaving things on the stairs to take up later, or leaving the kitchen messy. But I'll spend some time tidying and think that the place looks OK, and he sees all these problems I don't- magazines left on a table, dumping my bag on the sofa instead of hanging it up, a bag of soda left on the kitchen counter top, because I drink a lot of soda.
I've actually started to wonder if we should break up as I don't know if I'm capable of reaching his standards, and he doesn't want to move in with me unless I do, and I feel so angry and upset when we discuss it. I think I react defensively- possibly because it makes me feel like a naughty child. I asked him once to try to point out what I'm doing wrong, which I think has backfired, because he'll tell me off, I'll pull a face or not immediately fix it, and he gets really frustrated.
He feels incredibly resentful because he has changed his habits with money for me, and he thinks I should be able to do the same as this is just as important for his peace of mind. I feel incredibly resentful because it took a lot of time and practical support from me (I manage our finances for couple activities, I bought him budgeting software). And I have accepted that he will never manage his money the way I would like him to, but so long as he's paying his debts, can afford to get to work at the end of the month, and has some sort of emergency fund so that if he lost his job he would be OK, I don't mind taking on more of the responsibility for budgeting and saving for our future.
So it's this weird soup of issues, because I feel like the housekeeping should be treated as a unique problem, without him dipping into the grievance bank and telling me how he's done something difficult for me, why can't I do the same for him? But when he does bring that up, I get so petty and frustrated that he's expecting perfection from me, while I've accepted 'good enough'.
However! What I consider 'good enough' in terms of tidiness is not necessarily good enough! I'm not a reliable judge- I seem to almost be blind to the things that drive him nuts.
So, my questions:
Can I, an inveterate slattern, improve my ways? Have you? What's worked? I've asked him to write me a checklist but he feels uncomfortable with the thought of this. I've written a checklist, but so far it says :'nothing on the floor' and 'kitchen surfaces clear and clean'. I feel this might be a little basic.
Can my wonderful boyfriend learn to lower his standards so we meet somewhere in the middle? Should he? He does not feel he is particularly particular.
Why do we have such terrible fights about this, and how can we talk about this in a more constructive way?
Thank you if you read this far!
This sounds like a power/control thing more than a mess/slob think. My guess is that he resents you for criticising his financial approach and has found a way to regain the upper hand by criticising you for something.
My husband is neat and I'm messy but over the years we have both compromised and changed for each other to meet each other halfway. The only way this was possible was that we approached things through love and compassion and helped each other willingly. Before he moved in he cleaned my house thoroughly. After that I made an effort to maintain things. I have a room in our house I can keep my mess in and he doesn't complain as long as things are reasonably well contained. He has learned to live with a lot more clutter than he used to feel able to put up with. So it can work, but it won't if it becomes a"who's right " competition.
posted by hazyjane at 5:26 AM on August 4, 2015 [60 favorites]
My husband is neat and I'm messy but over the years we have both compromised and changed for each other to meet each other halfway. The only way this was possible was that we approached things through love and compassion and helped each other willingly. Before he moved in he cleaned my house thoroughly. After that I made an effort to maintain things. I have a room in our house I can keep my mess in and he doesn't complain as long as things are reasonably well contained. He has learned to live with a lot more clutter than he used to feel able to put up with. So it can work, but it won't if it becomes a"who's right " competition.
posted by hazyjane at 5:26 AM on August 4, 2015 [60 favorites]
The things you've written here do not sound like you're a slob. They sound like pretty typical "comfort level" sloppiness. (The magazines are out on the table so you have easy access to read them. A couple magazines isn't preventing someone else from using a table.) This isn't a lasagna under the bed situation. Your guy needs a reality check.
It's different from money because his shitty financial situation was literally impeding his life (and yours). Bad finances ruin lives. Soda on the kitchen counter does not.
Personally I wouldn't move in with someone who was 1) trying to infantalize me by scolding me all the time and 2) pulled out the "but I did X!" card as emotional blackmail anytime it suited him. Especially when X is something as fundamentally important as personal money management.
Not sure what to tell you here except to give you a reality check that you are not some beyond the pale slob.
posted by phunniemee at 5:29 AM on August 4, 2015 [74 favorites]
It's different from money because his shitty financial situation was literally impeding his life (and yours). Bad finances ruin lives. Soda on the kitchen counter does not.
Personally I wouldn't move in with someone who was 1) trying to infantalize me by scolding me all the time and 2) pulled out the "but I did X!" card as emotional blackmail anytime it suited him. Especially when X is something as fundamentally important as personal money management.
Not sure what to tell you here except to give you a reality check that you are not some beyond the pale slob.
posted by phunniemee at 5:29 AM on August 4, 2015 [74 favorites]
This is probably the single most common thing otherwise happy couples fight about, if my friends are an accurate sample. It's close to impossible to have the exact same cleanliness standards as the person you live with. The only option is for both of you to work a little bit at meeting in the middle - you work a little harder at keeping things straightened up, he works a little harder at letting things go. The problem in the telling of your specific story is that he seems weirdly mean and judgmental about your differences. It's not wrong that you leave your necklace on the kitchen counter and so on, and he's making it seem like a character defect. So let me say, as the neatnik in my own relationship, you are not wrong. You're not worse than he is just because you're messy.
As far as what might help change your habits - for my messy husband, it helps that he has his own room, an art and music studio that he keeps as messy as he likes. I never go in there. It is a scary place. It also has helped that he's become the primary house cleaner (I would prefer to hire a maid, but if he wants to do the cleaning instead, that's fine with me). Him having responsibility for cleaning the house once a week has given him a sense of ownership over keeping it relatively tidy the rest of the time, I think. And he also has come to see that his mental state is better overall when his environment is clean and neat. But we've been living together since 1999, and this has been an extremely recent change, his coming around to see things more my way.
Back to your situation, though - to be quite honest, your boyfriend's attitude on this would be a pretty major turnoff for me. I would worry about him being unusually controlling or judgmental about other aspects of your personality or the world at large. He needs to compromise and work with you on coming up with a solution that works for both of you. If he's not willing to do that on this issue, the same sort of attitude will probably show itself again in other aspects of your relationship.
posted by something something at 5:30 AM on August 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
As far as what might help change your habits - for my messy husband, it helps that he has his own room, an art and music studio that he keeps as messy as he likes. I never go in there. It is a scary place. It also has helped that he's become the primary house cleaner (I would prefer to hire a maid, but if he wants to do the cleaning instead, that's fine with me). Him having responsibility for cleaning the house once a week has given him a sense of ownership over keeping it relatively tidy the rest of the time, I think. And he also has come to see that his mental state is better overall when his environment is clean and neat. But we've been living together since 1999, and this has been an extremely recent change, his coming around to see things more my way.
Back to your situation, though - to be quite honest, your boyfriend's attitude on this would be a pretty major turnoff for me. I would worry about him being unusually controlling or judgmental about other aspects of your personality or the world at large. He needs to compromise and work with you on coming up with a solution that works for both of you. If he's not willing to do that on this issue, the same sort of attitude will probably show itself again in other aspects of your relationship.
posted by something something at 5:30 AM on August 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
He feels incredibly resentful because he has changed his habits with money for me, and he thinks I should be able to do the same as this is just as important for his peace of mind.
It's not exactly tit for tat here, as taking care of money and credit is part of being a responsible grownup and non-biological hazard clutter is a matter of preference.
You absolutely should not be creating trip hazards, buy if stuff like magazines on the table drive him nuts, you just might not be compatible with each other. Neither if you is wrong, but I'm along the same lines as you, and I would not date someone with OCD about tidyness because one or both of us would end up miserable.
But yes, you can change to an extent, and if the relationship is important to you, it's reasonable to try. Make a habit out if straightening up - do it for five minutes when you get home from work and for five minutes after dinner. Get one of the apps that helps track streaks of doing chores and challenge yourself to keep a run going. If you can improve a reasonable amount, it's on him to decide whether it's enough.
And to an extent, if you make it work, it's a t>rade of duties - you do much of the work of dealing with finances and he does much of the work of tidying. The important thing is that neither if you feel that you're doing all of the work.
posted by Candleman at 5:31 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's not exactly tit for tat here, as taking care of money and credit is part of being a responsible grownup and non-biological hazard clutter is a matter of preference.
You absolutely should not be creating trip hazards, buy if stuff like magazines on the table drive him nuts, you just might not be compatible with each other. Neither if you is wrong, but I'm along the same lines as you, and I would not date someone with OCD about tidyness because one or both of us would end up miserable.
But yes, you can change to an extent, and if the relationship is important to you, it's reasonable to try. Make a habit out if straightening up - do it for five minutes when you get home from work and for five minutes after dinner. Get one of the apps that helps track streaks of doing chores and challenge yourself to keep a run going. If you can improve a reasonable amount, it's on him to decide whether it's enough.
And to an extent, if you make it work, it's a t>rade of duties - you do much of the work of dealing with finances and he does much of the work of tidying. The important thing is that neither if you feel that you're doing all of the work.
posted by Candleman at 5:31 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I will also add that I quasi-lived with an ex who was similarly a super neat freak, who also had rigid ideas about what was clean and what wasn't, and he figured out how to let some trivial things slide. He decided he'd rather have the light clutter+me than no clutter+no me. For the things he couldn't let slide, he was always kind and gentle and joking about it, and took charge of his own neuroses in that regard. He never made me feel like it was my fault that he was obsessively neat.
It's entirely possible for you two to coexist happily, but he's the one who has to make the biggest personality changes.
posted by phunniemee at 5:34 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's entirely possible for you two to coexist happily, but he's the one who has to make the biggest personality changes.
posted by phunniemee at 5:34 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I would not move in with this guy. Watch the Scott Stanley video about Sliding vs Deciding.
You already have a lot of information about this guy. Moving in won't make any of these things any better, moving in makes things harder, not easier. But it adds to what Stanely refers to as the constraints. That is, moving in makes it harder to break up. He has a lot of interesting things to say about cohabiting, and they might be worth giving a listen.
You don't say whether you still have to beg and cajole him to be responsible with money, but he's definitely framing it as something that he still feels put out by. He's not thanking you for helping him improve this area of his life. He's acting like if you weren't such a killjoy he'd still be happily spending away.
posted by bilabial at 5:35 AM on August 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
You already have a lot of information about this guy. Moving in won't make any of these things any better, moving in makes things harder, not easier. But it adds to what Stanely refers to as the constraints. That is, moving in makes it harder to break up. He has a lot of interesting things to say about cohabiting, and they might be worth giving a listen.
You don't say whether you still have to beg and cajole him to be responsible with money, but he's definitely framing it as something that he still feels put out by. He's not thanking you for helping him improve this area of his life. He's acting like if you weren't such a killjoy he'd still be happily spending away.
posted by bilabial at 5:35 AM on August 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
How many rooms does your house have? If you are both given your own semi-sacrosanct space, it will help to make sure you are both comfortable. My desk at home is sparse, obsessively tidied, and sterile. My wife's desk often has piles of magazines she's flipping through, seed packets for gardening, art supplies, etc. I could not stand sitting at her desk, but I don't need to, even in our 790 square foot house. Sometimes we'll internet together on my desk (bigger monitors) and she'll occasionally leave an empty tea mug, kindle, etc. on my desk. For a while it bothered me, but she does it so rarely I just tease her and put it away. It's just not worth being unhappy about or causing her unhappiness.
My wife and I also divide chores, at least partially. We both clean, but she does 99.9% of the cooking because she enjoys it and she's damn good at it. So I try to keep her kitchen clean for her, both for workload sharing and as a thank you. Perhaps you can let him take over cleaning responsibilities if you take over laundry, or taking care of the lawn.
Two tips I've found for keeping tidy:
1. Always bring something with you when leaving a room. Leaving the kitchen for the living room? Look around, see if there is a book you can put away on the way.
2. Entertain weekly. The regular rush to tidy for guests, even if it's just a couple friends, will help keep the house clean, and cleaning for a defined purpose lessens some of the "ugh chores" connotations.
I'm reticent to give relationship advice as we are only given this small slice of your life together. I don't know how he makes you laugh, the stupid B movies you both adore, that one unforgettable night you got lost walking around NYC. Feeling comfortable and in control of your space is important, but I don't know what value your relationship has to you. The other side is that you are just dating, and you have to figure out if you are together because you make each other happy or out of inertia.
posted by JeremiahBritt at 5:36 AM on August 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
My wife and I also divide chores, at least partially. We both clean, but she does 99.9% of the cooking because she enjoys it and she's damn good at it. So I try to keep her kitchen clean for her, both for workload sharing and as a thank you. Perhaps you can let him take over cleaning responsibilities if you take over laundry, or taking care of the lawn.
Two tips I've found for keeping tidy:
1. Always bring something with you when leaving a room. Leaving the kitchen for the living room? Look around, see if there is a book you can put away on the way.
2. Entertain weekly. The regular rush to tidy for guests, even if it's just a couple friends, will help keep the house clean, and cleaning for a defined purpose lessens some of the "ugh chores" connotations.
I'm reticent to give relationship advice as we are only given this small slice of your life together. I don't know how he makes you laugh, the stupid B movies you both adore, that one unforgettable night you got lost walking around NYC. Feeling comfortable and in control of your space is important, but I don't know what value your relationship has to you. The other side is that you are just dating, and you have to figure out if you are together because you make each other happy or out of inertia.
posted by JeremiahBritt at 5:36 AM on August 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
You should see a couples therapist. Because it will be cheaper than a wedding or a divorce, and this is make or break time. It's make or break for your communication skills as a couple, and for your compromise compatibility as a couple.
And, while I don't like to make assumptions about people, if there is any part of either one of you that looks at this as a long term relationship with the possibility of kids, the above is twice as a important. I can't imagine trying to make a home with Mr Why-Are-There-Magazines-Out once he has to swim through 300 spat on bibs, a breast pump you can literally never put away, counters covered in carrot purée and stairs that actually are strewn with safety hazards.
No. So many Nos. All the the Nos.
Invest in fixing it, or split.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:40 AM on August 4, 2015 [45 favorites]
And, while I don't like to make assumptions about people, if there is any part of either one of you that looks at this as a long term relationship with the possibility of kids, the above is twice as a important. I can't imagine trying to make a home with Mr Why-Are-There-Magazines-Out once he has to swim through 300 spat on bibs, a breast pump you can literally never put away, counters covered in carrot purée and stairs that actually are strewn with safety hazards.
No. So many Nos. All the the Nos.
Invest in fixing it, or split.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:40 AM on August 4, 2015 [45 favorites]
I've improved because my super clean partner has gotten me so used to living in a clean place that I now notice the difference much faster. So, for example, I bring my dishes to the dishwasher, because I'm used to the rest of the house NOT having dishes out.
BUT I still have a long way to go and this is a source of tension in our relationship. He does the majority of house cleaning and cleaning supply buying and general "how do we clean this" information gathering. He is the one who gets us from 'tidy' to 'clean'.
There is also a gender factor here, in that his being bad with money is less related to gender stereotypes than you being bad with cleaning. 'Slob' is gender neutral, but 'slattern' is a special word for an untidy woman. So there is some shaming going on here, internal shaming from your own word choice and probably from him a bit too. Shame makes this conversation more difficult.
If he expects you to be not-you, that will not work. No matter the issue. You didn't expect him to be not-him with money, and that's how you found a sustainable system. You will both need to find a system that works with actual-you and actual-him.
Systems you may consider include Unfuck Your Habitat.
I would also highly recommend reading the Emotional Labour thread. You spending the time to figure out the systems for money (where you bend for him and he wants praise) and for cleaning (where he won't bend for you) is a lot of emotional labour. You are not the only one responsible for figuring out how to make the relationship work.
posted by heatherann at 5:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [36 favorites]
BUT I still have a long way to go and this is a source of tension in our relationship. He does the majority of house cleaning and cleaning supply buying and general "how do we clean this" information gathering. He is the one who gets us from 'tidy' to 'clean'.
There is also a gender factor here, in that his being bad with money is less related to gender stereotypes than you being bad with cleaning. 'Slob' is gender neutral, but 'slattern' is a special word for an untidy woman. So there is some shaming going on here, internal shaming from your own word choice and probably from him a bit too. Shame makes this conversation more difficult.
If he expects you to be not-you, that will not work. No matter the issue. You didn't expect him to be not-him with money, and that's how you found a sustainable system. You will both need to find a system that works with actual-you and actual-him.
Systems you may consider include Unfuck Your Habitat.
I would also highly recommend reading the Emotional Labour thread. You spending the time to figure out the systems for money (where you bend for him and he wants praise) and for cleaning (where he won't bend for you) is a lot of emotional labour. You are not the only one responsible for figuring out how to make the relationship work.
posted by heatherann at 5:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [36 favorites]
i've been in a relationship like yours for over 20 years. you both need to change. if you want this to work over the long term then you need to move together towards a mid point. on the way you'll find that some things are easier for you to change, some things for him.
what worries me most about what you describe is that your partner doesn't think he has to change. he does. there is no "right" answer here. people are all different. they live in all kinds of different ways. it's incredibly small minded to think that one way of living is better than another. there are simply advantages and disadvantages.
on the other hand, i do understand him. i've felt like that too. that's why this is hard. it would be easy if you didn't care about these things, and no-one thinks long-term relationships are easy.
all i can suggest is that you discuss this. i don't mean discussing how tidy you should be, but rather how you are going to adjust to living together. it may be (probably is) that he feels he's already accommodating a whole pile of crap. on the other hand, you probably feel so. and if not now, you soon will.
so talk about this. just finding out that the other person is also trying is a strong motivator for changing some more.
in other words, you need to share this. exactly how is going to depend on the dynamics of your relationship. for us, unfortunately, it often comes down to arguments. but that works for us, as long as we stubbornly battle through to a mutually agreeable conclusion.
good luck.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:44 AM on August 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
what worries me most about what you describe is that your partner doesn't think he has to change. he does. there is no "right" answer here. people are all different. they live in all kinds of different ways. it's incredibly small minded to think that one way of living is better than another. there are simply advantages and disadvantages.
on the other hand, i do understand him. i've felt like that too. that's why this is hard. it would be easy if you didn't care about these things, and no-one thinks long-term relationships are easy.
all i can suggest is that you discuss this. i don't mean discussing how tidy you should be, but rather how you are going to adjust to living together. it may be (probably is) that he feels he's already accommodating a whole pile of crap. on the other hand, you probably feel so. and if not now, you soon will.
so talk about this. just finding out that the other person is also trying is a strong motivator for changing some more.
in other words, you need to share this. exactly how is going to depend on the dynamics of your relationship. for us, unfortunately, it often comes down to arguments. but that works for us, as long as we stubbornly battle through to a mutually agreeable conclusion.
good luck.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:44 AM on August 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
I am extremely tidy person. I hate clutter and get genuinely excited about cleaning. I take a lot of pride in my house being clean, welcoming and comfortable. You should dump this guy, he sounds like a dick. This has nothing to do with his purported level of cleanliness or what you're calling your slovenly behavior -- he is refusing to be reasonable and keeps bringing up the idea that he is not mismanaging his money any more as if it is remotely relevant to the issue at hand. From what you've said, it sounds like one of the cornerstones of your relationship is mutual resentment which simply can't work in the long run. There's a better person out there for both of you, move on.
posted by kate blank at 5:45 AM on August 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by kate blank at 5:45 AM on August 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
It's not about the dispute. It doesn't matter how much of a slob you are, or how much of a control freak he is. What matters is how you work towards fixing your disputes. If you can approach it with an honest effort to make your partner happy, and understanding that they will not always succeed in their efforts, and a good sense of humor about your own failings and idiosyncrasies, then a couple can make pretty vast differences work. My wife and I are like this about some things. It doesn't sound like either of you are approaching this difference very well (I react defensively...I'll pull a face, he thinks he is completely reasonable about this and the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense) and I think that is your bigger problem.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:45 AM on August 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 5:45 AM on August 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'll start by saying that I'm not naturally tidy and that I would find this extremely difficult to do myself.
Here's my idea: if you do want to be tidy as he wishes, maybe doing it in smaller pieces would work. Think of it as creating new habits. Choose an area to start a tidiness habit. Let's say the stairs. It takes a few weeks to establish a new habit so you get a month to do this. Each new area is a new habit to be established. Each new area gets its own month: stairs, kitchen counters, living room surfaces, bedroom surfaces, etc.
That said, I think he's being unnecessarily combative and that this specific argument is a red herring: he's not ready to move in with someone. He can't deal with any loss of control.
posted by sciencegeek at 5:58 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here's my idea: if you do want to be tidy as he wishes, maybe doing it in smaller pieces would work. Think of it as creating new habits. Choose an area to start a tidiness habit. Let's say the stairs. It takes a few weeks to establish a new habit so you get a month to do this. Each new area is a new habit to be established. Each new area gets its own month: stairs, kitchen counters, living room surfaces, bedroom surfaces, etc.
That said, I think he's being unnecessarily combative and that this specific argument is a red herring: he's not ready to move in with someone. He can't deal with any loss of control.
posted by sciencegeek at 5:58 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can agree to live separately. Do you have to live together? If you get along great but you genuinely prefer a cluttered bohemian type house and he likes the Dwell minimalism, why not live separately? Or at least say this room is mine for this, that room is yours, these common areas will be compromised to that degree. I have a family member delaying a move-in for the same reason (the partner is the messy one comparatively) because they get along fine apart and having to merge two very different preferred living styles under one roof is just Not Worth It for now.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:06 AM on August 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:06 AM on August 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's interesting that talking about this automatically turns into a big row. Unless you're starting things off by screaming "stop telling me what to do!!!" (which I very much doubt), then he's the one starting the fights.
I don't think this is about cleanliness/housekeeping habits. I think it's about your relationship.
Maybe the issue is that he's upset that you pestered him about his finances for years, and he didn't like it. In that case, maybe you need to acknowledge how he felt, and sincerely apologize for your role in that.
Or he's using that as an excuse to try to get the upper hand in the relationship. It's weird to me that anyone would complain about being forced to not be broke and have terrible credit (or even to think he did it for you, rather than for himself), and that goes double for someone who is OCD about picking up and cleaning house. That makes me think the power dynamic is the issue, not the supposed sacrifices he made for you in getting his financial house together.
The other very real possibility I see is that it also has nothing to do with the sacrifices he made for you or his finances. Maybe there are other relationship problems, and he or both of you aren't capable of recognizing them and speaking about them honestly. So, instead, y'all are blowing up over stupid shit, because, hey, you're not happy and you're not quite happy together, but you aren't ready or able to admit that.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:07 AM on August 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't think this is about cleanliness/housekeeping habits. I think it's about your relationship.
Maybe the issue is that he's upset that you pestered him about his finances for years, and he didn't like it. In that case, maybe you need to acknowledge how he felt, and sincerely apologize for your role in that.
Or he's using that as an excuse to try to get the upper hand in the relationship. It's weird to me that anyone would complain about being forced to not be broke and have terrible credit (or even to think he did it for you, rather than for himself), and that goes double for someone who is OCD about picking up and cleaning house. That makes me think the power dynamic is the issue, not the supposed sacrifices he made for you in getting his financial house together.
The other very real possibility I see is that it also has nothing to do with the sacrifices he made for you or his finances. Maybe there are other relationship problems, and he or both of you aren't capable of recognizing them and speaking about them honestly. So, instead, y'all are blowing up over stupid shit, because, hey, you're not happy and you're not quite happy together, but you aren't ready or able to admit that.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:07 AM on August 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yep, agreeing: You don't have to live together. My honey and I are coming up on year 5 of being together, committed, and also not living together with no plans to. It works beautifully. Neither of us criticize the other on how we keep our living space. If this is at all feasible for you, please consider it.
I know that the Relationship Escalator demands it, but you don't have to do it. "Living apart together" is your keyword to search here.
posted by fiercecupcake at 6:08 AM on August 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
I know that the Relationship Escalator demands it, but you don't have to do it. "Living apart together" is your keyword to search here.
posted by fiercecupcake at 6:08 AM on August 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
DarlingBri's got it. Whether or not this is about household tidiness levels is only tangential to the fact that you two are struggling with healthy problem solving strategies. A few sessions with a competent counselor can help you both figure out how to work through conflicts. What matters is that you figure out how to work things out respectfully and in a way where you're both feeling heard.
And: I feel like I'm quite far on the messy side of the spectrum, but he's pretty far along the OCD side. Unless he actually has been diagnosed, please refrain from connecting tidiness with OCD. OCD is a serious mental disorder which can wreak havoc on someone's life. Saying a tidy person has OCD (or OCD-like traits) unpleasantly minimizes a very real disorder.
posted by kinetic at 6:28 AM on August 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
And: I feel like I'm quite far on the messy side of the spectrum, but he's pretty far along the OCD side. Unless he actually has been diagnosed, please refrain from connecting tidiness with OCD. OCD is a serious mental disorder which can wreak havoc on someone's life. Saying a tidy person has OCD (or OCD-like traits) unpleasantly minimizes a very real disorder.
posted by kinetic at 6:28 AM on August 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
If you really don't think the problem is any deeper than a simple messy vs. tidy conflict, could you consider hiring a maid? I'm sure that a messy person can change, but based on my own experience (my wife and I are both equally messy and so far haven't been able to change our wicked ways), I suspect you'd really need to want to do so for yourself for it to stick - changes that are only done to make someone else happy, without really having internal buy-in on the change's importance, rarely really 'take.' If having a paid professional come in once a week to get things back up to a level your boyfriend likes will fix the problem, I'm all for throwing money at it.
However. I know someone whose husband sounds like your boyfriend, and even though the wife is also VERY clean, he still starts fights pretty frequently over the level of cleanliness of their home - from my outside perspective it sounds like their issue is more one of control, and this husband uses complaining about some random thing that isn't exactly as he wants it as a surrogate for expressing his feelings about deeper problems. It sounds exhausting and unwinnable, to me.
I say this both because I wonder if something similar is going on with you guys, and also to suggest that even if you did get up to a level of tidiness that most people would be happy with, that might not solve the problem. If you think this is a possibility and both of you are willing to work on it as a joint issue, I hope you guys will consider couples counseling to work out ways to communicate and compromise more effectively.
(also, this is neither here nor there, but as a gentle reminder, liking things extremely neat isn't the same as having OCD ... I don't have an actual dog in this fight but I've known people with actual OCD who would LOVE to see this shorthand go away)
posted by DingoMutt at 6:31 AM on August 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
However. I know someone whose husband sounds like your boyfriend, and even though the wife is also VERY clean, he still starts fights pretty frequently over the level of cleanliness of their home - from my outside perspective it sounds like their issue is more one of control, and this husband uses complaining about some random thing that isn't exactly as he wants it as a surrogate for expressing his feelings about deeper problems. It sounds exhausting and unwinnable, to me.
I say this both because I wonder if something similar is going on with you guys, and also to suggest that even if you did get up to a level of tidiness that most people would be happy with, that might not solve the problem. If you think this is a possibility and both of you are willing to work on it as a joint issue, I hope you guys will consider couples counseling to work out ways to communicate and compromise more effectively.
(also, this is neither here nor there, but as a gentle reminder, liking things extremely neat isn't the same as having OCD ... I don't have an actual dog in this fight but I've known people with actual OCD who would LOVE to see this shorthand go away)
posted by DingoMutt at 6:31 AM on August 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
You might want to take a look at his background and upbringing. These things always influence how we conduct ourselves. I grew up in a hoard house (not at all saying that you are a hoarder!), but it has really affected me in how I feel about messes in general. I literally get a shaky and sick feeling when my house gets cluttered. Having a clean environment is essential for my mental health.
Communication, as always, is key. You said that you guys don't normally have fights like this. Ask about his background. Maybe he has some issues to unpack. Either way, talking to him about it will tell you everything you need to know. People tell us things straight to our face, but we don't often listen. We think they mean something else or we only hear what we want to hear.
You also said that he feels uncomfortable writing you a list...I think that speaks volumes. He doesn't want to be some cleaning tyrant. You didn't say if you love him, that speaks volumes as well. It doesn't sound to me like you are a good match, but talk a little bit more. Both of you endeavor to really listen. People tell us things, but we don't listen. If you can, try to be "self-correcting units".
posted by Grlnxtdr at 6:32 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Communication, as always, is key. You said that you guys don't normally have fights like this. Ask about his background. Maybe he has some issues to unpack. Either way, talking to him about it will tell you everything you need to know. People tell us things straight to our face, but we don't often listen. We think they mean something else or we only hear what we want to hear.
You also said that he feels uncomfortable writing you a list...I think that speaks volumes. He doesn't want to be some cleaning tyrant. You didn't say if you love him, that speaks volumes as well. It doesn't sound to me like you are a good match, but talk a little bit more. Both of you endeavor to really listen. People tell us things, but we don't listen. If you can, try to be "self-correcting units".
posted by Grlnxtdr at 6:32 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
My wife is naturally quite slobbish; I am definitely towards the other end of the spectrum. We used to argue about these sorts of domestic issues from time to time, but over 6 years living together we've managed (non-explicitly) to evolve towards a sufficiently happy medium, to the point where it's now very rare indeed for this to cause conflict.
If something is blatantly unhygienic (say, a "clean" bowl that's still greasy and obviously hasn't been washed with hot water and soap) or obstructive (say, a dozen coats and handbags hanging on the back of the door making it hard to open) then I'll point that out, say that I don't feel that xyz is ok, and ask her to try to look out for and break that habit.
If something is simply messy (say, magazines scattered around the living area) and I don't like it, then I'll fix the problem (gather the magazines up into a neat pile and stack it on the table or put them back on the bookshelves). And I won't bother to mention that I'm doing this. It takes me a few seconds to do this kind of thing, it makes me feel better, and ultimately it makes me feel more better to do it this way than it would to bring it up, insist she did it herself and risk an argument.
Speaking from my side of the coin, it was important for me to realise that the tidy person aboslutely doesn't have some kind of overbearing moral right to call the shots about the way every single domestic arrangement should be.
So, over the years, she has made an effort to do better with the big things, and I've made an effort to stfu about the little things. Thus groweth a greater crop of domestic harmony...
The important point is that it's a 2 way process, and it requires leeway to be given from both parties. We're talking about trivial yet constant actions and events that form a major background to your life; cooperatively moving towards somewhere in the middle ground is a very mundane, yet no less vital part of building a happy living situation.
If your boyfriend shows absolutely no leeway on this, if there's no effort on his part to work towards a "good enough" situation, if he's harping on about "peace of mind" and trying to attach the significance of the unrelated money-management differences to such mundane issues, then I hate to say that it does sound like he has a chip on his shoulder about something (the money issues, moving in in general, something else unrelated that you've not mentioned but might be lurking in the backgroun) and that making a scene about this is a deflection process on his part rather than confronting the real problem.
posted by protorp at 6:36 AM on August 4, 2015 [17 favorites]
If something is blatantly unhygienic (say, a "clean" bowl that's still greasy and obviously hasn't been washed with hot water and soap) or obstructive (say, a dozen coats and handbags hanging on the back of the door making it hard to open) then I'll point that out, say that I don't feel that xyz is ok, and ask her to try to look out for and break that habit.
If something is simply messy (say, magazines scattered around the living area) and I don't like it, then I'll fix the problem (gather the magazines up into a neat pile and stack it on the table or put them back on the bookshelves). And I won't bother to mention that I'm doing this. It takes me a few seconds to do this kind of thing, it makes me feel better, and ultimately it makes me feel more better to do it this way than it would to bring it up, insist she did it herself and risk an argument.
Speaking from my side of the coin, it was important for me to realise that the tidy person aboslutely doesn't have some kind of overbearing moral right to call the shots about the way every single domestic arrangement should be.
So, over the years, she has made an effort to do better with the big things, and I've made an effort to stfu about the little things. Thus groweth a greater crop of domestic harmony...
The important point is that it's a 2 way process, and it requires leeway to be given from both parties. We're talking about trivial yet constant actions and events that form a major background to your life; cooperatively moving towards somewhere in the middle ground is a very mundane, yet no less vital part of building a happy living situation.
If your boyfriend shows absolutely no leeway on this, if there's no effort on his part to work towards a "good enough" situation, if he's harping on about "peace of mind" and trying to attach the significance of the unrelated money-management differences to such mundane issues, then I hate to say that it does sound like he has a chip on his shoulder about something (the money issues, moving in in general, something else unrelated that you've not mentioned but might be lurking in the backgroun) and that making a scene about this is a deflection process on his part rather than confronting the real problem.
posted by protorp at 6:36 AM on August 4, 2015 [17 favorites]
Honestly you don't even sound that messy to me.
For some perspective, housekeeping is a big source of tension for me currently because one of housemates genuinely is hard to live with in this regard. But it's stuff like literally never contributing at all to cleaning the bathrooms or kitchen, leaving lots of empty beer and soda cans in the garage and on the ground in the backyard and some around the house, never taking the trash out, almost never washing dishes, treating the recycle bin like a trashcan, bringing home free stuff that we don't have room for and just leaving it in the garage for months, breaking a ceramic pot in the yard and just leaving the broken pieces there for someone else to clean up.
The way you are describing yourself sounds more on the middle of the spectrum, not on the terrible slob side. Putting a coat over a chair or your bag on the sofa or a stack of magazines on a table? These don't even register as messy to me. Leaving a bag of soda on the counter indefinitely and using the counter as its permanent home is not good but just not putting it away immediately doesn't seem like a big deal. The necklace on the counter thing is a little weird because it's like you're using the kitchen space as a dresser. I'm not saying all this because it matters so much what I or other people think about the specific sources of conflict, but because I think it's sort of unfair of him to insist that the problem is all on your side and that his preferences are completely reasonable in some objective way.
Re: the terrible fights, it seems like maybe you guys are in kind of a loop where something possibly really minor bothers him, he complains about it to you about it, and you get defensive and angry and there's no room for discussion. I've been in this situation before, where both people's thresholds for getting upset are kind of lowered because of the past history of fights about the subjects.
I think one thing you can do is try to avoid the immediate defensive reaction. Not that you should just cave and agree with him but that you should hear him out, let him explain the thing that he's complaining about. If it's an expectation that you don't feel is reasonable, then calmly tell him that sometimes you're going to put your coat on a chair in your own home (or whatever) and he's going to have to accept that. But if you can listen to him without immediately getting angry and defensive, I think that might help. Because it's very frustrating to be trying to tell someone something and to feel like you don't even have a chance to talk and be listened to without them getting defensive and angry before they even take in what you are saying.
Maybe it would also help to preemptively set some boundaries with some of the stuff? (like the bag on the sofa, coat on a chair level things). Tell him that these are things that you don't feel are reasonable expectations and that you will make an effort to accommodate his preferences but sometimes you are going to do them and you don't want him to complain to you about them (about these specific things).
posted by thdavis at 6:53 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
For some perspective, housekeeping is a big source of tension for me currently because one of housemates genuinely is hard to live with in this regard. But it's stuff like literally never contributing at all to cleaning the bathrooms or kitchen, leaving lots of empty beer and soda cans in the garage and on the ground in the backyard and some around the house, never taking the trash out, almost never washing dishes, treating the recycle bin like a trashcan, bringing home free stuff that we don't have room for and just leaving it in the garage for months, breaking a ceramic pot in the yard and just leaving the broken pieces there for someone else to clean up.
The way you are describing yourself sounds more on the middle of the spectrum, not on the terrible slob side. Putting a coat over a chair or your bag on the sofa or a stack of magazines on a table? These don't even register as messy to me. Leaving a bag of soda on the counter indefinitely and using the counter as its permanent home is not good but just not putting it away immediately doesn't seem like a big deal. The necklace on the counter thing is a little weird because it's like you're using the kitchen space as a dresser. I'm not saying all this because it matters so much what I or other people think about the specific sources of conflict, but because I think it's sort of unfair of him to insist that the problem is all on your side and that his preferences are completely reasonable in some objective way.
Re: the terrible fights, it seems like maybe you guys are in kind of a loop where something possibly really minor bothers him, he complains about it to you about it, and you get defensive and angry and there's no room for discussion. I've been in this situation before, where both people's thresholds for getting upset are kind of lowered because of the past history of fights about the subjects.
I think one thing you can do is try to avoid the immediate defensive reaction. Not that you should just cave and agree with him but that you should hear him out, let him explain the thing that he's complaining about. If it's an expectation that you don't feel is reasonable, then calmly tell him that sometimes you're going to put your coat on a chair in your own home (or whatever) and he's going to have to accept that. But if you can listen to him without immediately getting angry and defensive, I think that might help. Because it's very frustrating to be trying to tell someone something and to feel like you don't even have a chance to talk and be listened to without them getting defensive and angry before they even take in what you are saying.
Maybe it would also help to preemptively set some boundaries with some of the stuff? (like the bag on the sofa, coat on a chair level things). Tell him that these are things that you don't feel are reasonable expectations and that you will make an effort to accommodate his preferences but sometimes you are going to do them and you don't want him to complain to you about them (about these specific things).
posted by thdavis at 6:53 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with the advice that you don't have to live together, but also that this may be a symptom of a greater incompatibility in the relationship, but if you still want to, strongly consider a maid service. My spouse and I do this, and not only does it take "I get credit for cleaning, therefore you have to do something else to make up for it!" off the table, but it makes us less cluttery, because we have to pick up all the crap whenever the service is coming by. And doing that even just every couple of weeks means that stuff doesn't accumulate -- it's a lot easier to do 10 minutes of picking up every two weeks than to do an hour every three months.
posted by Etrigan at 6:53 AM on August 4, 2015
posted by Etrigan at 6:53 AM on August 4, 2015
Your boyfriend sounds like kind of a jerk, sorry. I think it's telling that instead saying "wow, thank you for motivating me to get my shit together with my finances, what a relief," he holds it over your head like it's some kind of huge sacrifice he made for you. I mean, think about it. That's a huge net positive gain in his life that he may have never achieved without you, and he's holding a grudge about it! Meanwhile, you're not allowed to leave a magazine out.
I live with a man who is much cleaner than me too. Like others have said, it isn't inherently a dealbreaker to be a much bigger slob than your loved one, the key is whether you still treat each other with respect. Honestly, the fact that you don't live together yet but already have "horrible fights" about this stuff is a really bad sign.
posted by cakelite at 6:54 AM on August 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
I live with a man who is much cleaner than me too. Like others have said, it isn't inherently a dealbreaker to be a much bigger slob than your loved one, the key is whether you still treat each other with respect. Honestly, the fact that you don't live together yet but already have "horrible fights" about this stuff is a really bad sign.
posted by cakelite at 6:54 AM on August 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
There is, or should be, some room for compromise here. A few thoughts on what that might look like: couples therapy to help work through the issue, continuing to live separately but maybe moving closer to each other, finding some areas of agreement where you can up your standards on some things and he can agree to deal with magazines on his coffee table. But you both have to be willing to make those compromises, and he definitely needs to not drag past unrelated issues into the discussion.
A practical thought for you - your idea of a checklist is a good one. Personally, I keep mine in an app called Remember the Milk that lets me set up tasks to recur e.g. weekly, monthly, every 4 days, whatever. My list is very detailed right down to a twice-weekly task for "cruise through the house, declutter stuff I have left on random surfaces." I don't SEE that stuff on my own, but I can take responsibility for setting that reminder to force me to see it. And for my partner's part, he can chill the hell out and not get on my case if there's some crap on the coffee table because he knows I'll get to it soon, and it's not reasonable to expect a spotless house at all times. There are lots of housecleaning-checklists out there on the internet, and I found some and picked the tasks I wanted to do and the frequencies at which I wanted to do them. Making it my own responsibility to keep up with that stuff and building in a way to do so that does not rely on my memory or noticing the mess works much better than either making it his job to bug me, or my job to notice mess in a way I am simply not wired to do.
If you want to find a way to get neater, I recommend that. But I think the issue here is not so much about your specific level of neatness, and more about how you two are communicating about this difference. If you can fix that, a solution to the housekeeping stuff should follow fairly easily.
posted by Stacey at 6:58 AM on August 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
A practical thought for you - your idea of a checklist is a good one. Personally, I keep mine in an app called Remember the Milk that lets me set up tasks to recur e.g. weekly, monthly, every 4 days, whatever. My list is very detailed right down to a twice-weekly task for "cruise through the house, declutter stuff I have left on random surfaces." I don't SEE that stuff on my own, but I can take responsibility for setting that reminder to force me to see it. And for my partner's part, he can chill the hell out and not get on my case if there's some crap on the coffee table because he knows I'll get to it soon, and it's not reasonable to expect a spotless house at all times. There are lots of housecleaning-checklists out there on the internet, and I found some and picked the tasks I wanted to do and the frequencies at which I wanted to do them. Making it my own responsibility to keep up with that stuff and building in a way to do so that does not rely on my memory or noticing the mess works much better than either making it his job to bug me, or my job to notice mess in a way I am simply not wired to do.
If you want to find a way to get neater, I recommend that. But I think the issue here is not so much about your specific level of neatness, and more about how you two are communicating about this difference. If you can fix that, a solution to the housekeeping stuff should follow fairly easily.
posted by Stacey at 6:58 AM on August 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
While completely agreeing with previous advice on: this isn't a lasagna under the bed situation, maybe there are other issues afoot, don't move in unless this can be resolved, etc...
I, a sometimes cantankerous and set-in-her-ways (it turns out!) person who turned out to be pretty @#$* nit-picky about, I don't know, why did you move the magazines off the table? How am I supposed to sit down and read a magazine now; good grief, what were you thinking? got a lot of relief from this:
Whenever I see a part of my space that has been altered by my partner that rubs me the wrong way, I: re-focus and quickly look around for something he has done that pleases me. God knows why he can't leave the curtains alone but oh look at that freshly cut grass! The curtains will take me a minute or three, not loads of sweaty heavy labour. Thank heavens for partner, who cuts the grass. Just shut up about the curtains, kmennie.
I mention this as a possible technique for him, not you, though...
posted by kmennie at 6:59 AM on August 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I, a sometimes cantankerous and set-in-her-ways (it turns out!) person who turned out to be pretty @#$* nit-picky about, I don't know, why did you move the magazines off the table? How am I supposed to sit down and read a magazine now; good grief, what were you thinking? got a lot of relief from this:
Whenever I see a part of my space that has been altered by my partner that rubs me the wrong way, I: re-focus and quickly look around for something he has done that pleases me. God knows why he can't leave the curtains alone but oh look at that freshly cut grass! The curtains will take me a minute or three, not loads of sweaty heavy labour. Thank heavens for partner, who cuts the grass. Just shut up about the curtains, kmennie.
I mention this as a possible technique for him, not you, though...
posted by kmennie at 6:59 AM on August 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
The differences in possession management are not fatal. But the tendency to fight over differences probably is. Once that becomes the patterned response to differences in a relationship, it tends to sour worse and worse.
It may be salvageable, but even if you were to morph into a neatnik or he into a slob, other, less extreme differences would arise, as they always do, and elicit the same negative pattern of aggressive contretemps. And that's the part that's a problem.
Plenty of extreme opposites co-exist quite peacefully. And plenty of perfectly matched sets fight like bloody murder. Becoming more similar won't help. What needs to happen is to escape the death spiral of your chosen mechanism and grow into loving acceptance of difference. From that point, you can indeed learn from him to reign in your tendencies a bit. And he can learn to relax a bit. But just a bit, both ways.
posted by Quisp Lover at 7:04 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It may be salvageable, but even if you were to morph into a neatnik or he into a slob, other, less extreme differences would arise, as they always do, and elicit the same negative pattern of aggressive contretemps. And that's the part that's a problem.
Plenty of extreme opposites co-exist quite peacefully. And plenty of perfectly matched sets fight like bloody murder. Becoming more similar won't help. What needs to happen is to escape the death spiral of your chosen mechanism and grow into loving acceptance of difference. From that point, you can indeed learn from him to reign in your tendencies a bit. And he can learn to relax a bit. But just a bit, both ways.
posted by Quisp Lover at 7:04 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've bought a house, he is pulling himself together financially after lots of effort on his part and lots of begging, cajoling and ultimatum giving on my part.
Well, the tables have turned and it's his turn to put the kibosh on cohabitation- apparently my slatternly habits are a deal breaker for him.
So you went through the wringer to wrangle him into being a functional grownup, helped him use software, invested a lot of time and energy into helping him. Is he doing any of that here? Is he offering suggestions instead of just criticisms? Is he jumping in to help before getting upset? Is he talking openly about what concrete actions need to be done for him to feel comfortable?
He thinks he is completely reasonable about this and the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense.
This is garbage and this is poison. "We both like things different ways but to live together we will both have to make allowances" is normal and healthy. "I am right and my way is the only way to be right and you are gross and horrible" is NOT. People who believe that their preferences are objectively the best are really, really difficult to live with.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:05 AM on August 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
Well, the tables have turned and it's his turn to put the kibosh on cohabitation- apparently my slatternly habits are a deal breaker for him.
So you went through the wringer to wrangle him into being a functional grownup, helped him use software, invested a lot of time and energy into helping him. Is he doing any of that here? Is he offering suggestions instead of just criticisms? Is he jumping in to help before getting upset? Is he talking openly about what concrete actions need to be done for him to feel comfortable?
He thinks he is completely reasonable about this and the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense.
This is garbage and this is poison. "We both like things different ways but to live together we will both have to make allowances" is normal and healthy. "I am right and my way is the only way to be right and you are gross and horrible" is NOT. People who believe that their preferences are objectively the best are really, really difficult to live with.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:05 AM on August 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow thanks everyone for the interesting food for thought so far!
A couple of things that might be relevant- yes, I love him. He's wonderful, and other than this issue I think our relationship is strong, we are respectful towards each other, and communicate well. However, those who suggested this was a control issue might be on to something..
heatherann, that's interesting. Part of what prompted me to ask this question was the emotional labour thread- I realised I sounded like one of the dudes in those stories on there- 'I just don't see it honey!' and 'if it bothers you so much just do it'! And it made me feel terrible.
DingoMutt I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem- and that wouldn't solve the mess issue, just the tidiness issue- I would love to throw money at this situation!
And one last thing then I'll butt out. Apologies for my incorrect use of the term OCD. He is not diagnosed and I shouldn't refer to him as such that go above and beyond being extremely neat and tidy. However, I described him that way because do think he has obsessive and compulsive traits when it comes to his space. For example, he rarely works from his office, maybe once or twice a month. However, he refuses to hot desk, because he absolutely hates his keyboard, chair etc to be moved AT ALL. His colleagues play this game where they move his mouse or something by an inch to see if he reacts after not being in the office for weeks. He invariably does and asks who the hell has been sitting at his desk. Once when he was asked to move and sit at a hot desk by his boss, he told me he wasn't able to concentrate and had to leave and work from home. Anyway, apologies for the misnomer and offense caused.
posted by Dwardles at 7:08 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
A couple of things that might be relevant- yes, I love him. He's wonderful, and other than this issue I think our relationship is strong, we are respectful towards each other, and communicate well. However, those who suggested this was a control issue might be on to something..
heatherann, that's interesting. Part of what prompted me to ask this question was the emotional labour thread- I realised I sounded like one of the dudes in those stories on there- 'I just don't see it honey!' and 'if it bothers you so much just do it'! And it made me feel terrible.
DingoMutt I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem- and that wouldn't solve the mess issue, just the tidiness issue- I would love to throw money at this situation!
And one last thing then I'll butt out. Apologies for my incorrect use of the term OCD. He is not diagnosed and I shouldn't refer to him as such that go above and beyond being extremely neat and tidy. However, I described him that way because do think he has obsessive and compulsive traits when it comes to his space. For example, he rarely works from his office, maybe once or twice a month. However, he refuses to hot desk, because he absolutely hates his keyboard, chair etc to be moved AT ALL. His colleagues play this game where they move his mouse or something by an inch to see if he reacts after not being in the office for weeks. He invariably does and asks who the hell has been sitting at his desk. Once when he was asked to move and sit at a hot desk by his boss, he told me he wasn't able to concentrate and had to leave and work from home. Anyway, apologies for the misnomer and offense caused.
posted by Dwardles at 7:08 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I dunno, as a tidy person who can suck with money, I feel him. Changing your financial habits (which is a thing my fiance helps me with, super sweetly and non-judgementally) is REALLY hard, at least as hard as learning to effing put shit away -- which is what is sounds like he wants of you. And my fiance has done that for me: I hate it when bags and coats are left out; it makes me feel ill-at-ease in my own home &c., so now he mostly puts his bag in the place I made for it and I don't buy ALL THE THINGS and that seems pretty fair.
It does make me wonder what he is doing to help you though. I've found people who like to be tidy are usually good at having a place for everything and people who are not, are not. So when he left things everywhere, I made a place for them. When he left his underwear in the bathroom because the hamper was across the apartment and he won't just walk over naked like I will, I put a hamper in the bathroom so I didn't want to murder him. Is your bf doing any of *that*?
But mostly, I just want to say it doesn't make you a jerk to hate clutter and get frustrated feeling like you have to either be uncomfortable or constantly picking up after someone else. It's fair to not want to, and decide you are incompatible, but I don't see how he's a jerk for being frustrated.
posted by dame at 7:11 AM on August 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
It does make me wonder what he is doing to help you though. I've found people who like to be tidy are usually good at having a place for everything and people who are not, are not. So when he left things everywhere, I made a place for them. When he left his underwear in the bathroom because the hamper was across the apartment and he won't just walk over naked like I will, I put a hamper in the bathroom so I didn't want to murder him. Is your bf doing any of *that*?
But mostly, I just want to say it doesn't make you a jerk to hate clutter and get frustrated feeling like you have to either be uncomfortable or constantly picking up after someone else. It's fair to not want to, and decide you are incompatible, but I don't see how he's a jerk for being frustrated.
posted by dame at 7:11 AM on August 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem- and that wouldn't solve the mess issue, just the tidiness issue- I would love to throw money at this situation!
It is (apparently) more important for him to be right than for you (the collective "both of you" as well as the individual "Dwardles") to be happy. That is not a good indicator. I speak from hard-won experience as someone who often thought it more important to be right than for my ex-spouse to be happy. Hence the "ex".
posted by Etrigan at 7:16 AM on August 4, 2015 [35 favorites]
It is (apparently) more important for him to be right than for you (the collective "both of you" as well as the individual "Dwardles") to be happy. That is not a good indicator. I speak from hard-won experience as someone who often thought it more important to be right than for my ex-spouse to be happy. Hence the "ex".
posted by Etrigan at 7:16 AM on August 4, 2015 [35 favorites]
I am extremely tidy person. I hate clutter and get genuinely excited about cleaning. I take a lot of pride in my house being clean, welcoming and comfortable.
This is me also. And I date a guy who is a LOT more relaxed about where things are and how they're put away. And we don't live together. And probably won't. And that works mostly fine for me. When we're at my place I get to set certain limits (dishes in the dishwasher or washed before we go to bed, please don't leave your shoes in places where I will trip, don't pile stuff on chairs) and I have to bend on certain things that honestly don't matter (where he puts his clothes when he goes to sleep if they're not in my way, where he leaves his laptop, whether there's clutter in his car that we are not using). For me if I'm getting up in his business about things that are really just his things, it points to an anxiety issue on my end. Like I might move his laptop to somewhere more convenient (out of the kitchen) but I don't get to give him a hard time about it.
There is a wide gap between "You aren't tidy like me" and "You are bad at being human" or "I don't like the way you think about spaces and how to manage them" He is presenting like it's the first issue but the way he argues and digs in seems a lot more like the latter issues. And I get it, I am one of those "DO NOT move my stuff!" people, really, I totally empathize with his agitation. But I do not empathize with his approach. So while I'm not in DTMFA camp, I think the question is not whether you can resolve the "How clean should our house be?" issue but "How do we deal with resolving fundamental personality disputes?" because if he's saying no to a housecleaner, that is another indication that this isn't just about the mess issue (because that would really approach it) and more about something else. I would not live with a person who wasn't also super tidy, but I am also totally okay not living with anyone.
posted by jessamyn at 7:18 AM on August 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is me also. And I date a guy who is a LOT more relaxed about where things are and how they're put away. And we don't live together. And probably won't. And that works mostly fine for me. When we're at my place I get to set certain limits (dishes in the dishwasher or washed before we go to bed, please don't leave your shoes in places where I will trip, don't pile stuff on chairs) and I have to bend on certain things that honestly don't matter (where he puts his clothes when he goes to sleep if they're not in my way, where he leaves his laptop, whether there's clutter in his car that we are not using). For me if I'm getting up in his business about things that are really just his things, it points to an anxiety issue on my end. Like I might move his laptop to somewhere more convenient (out of the kitchen) but I don't get to give him a hard time about it.
There is a wide gap between "You aren't tidy like me" and "You are bad at being human" or "I don't like the way you think about spaces and how to manage them" He is presenting like it's the first issue but the way he argues and digs in seems a lot more like the latter issues. And I get it, I am one of those "DO NOT move my stuff!" people, really, I totally empathize with his agitation. But I do not empathize with his approach. So while I'm not in DTMFA camp, I think the question is not whether you can resolve the "How clean should our house be?" issue but "How do we deal with resolving fundamental personality disputes?" because if he's saying no to a housecleaner, that is another indication that this isn't just about the mess issue (because that would really approach it) and more about something else. I would not live with a person who wasn't also super tidy, but I am also totally okay not living with anyone.
posted by jessamyn at 7:18 AM on August 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Speaking from experience, agreed that this is about the relationship, not housekeeping. No matter what you do or how hard you work, it will never be good enough for him. Worse, you'll be living with his constant disapproval in the home that YOU own.
You didn't specify if he would be paying you rent or if he would be added to the mortgage, but I would be very reluctant to financially entangle myself with this man based on his past behavior and the sense of unyielding entitlement he has about the house that you worked hard to buy. (And for crying out loud maybe you're too busy to pick up that magazine because you're working in the garden or mowing the lawn or doing any one of a million other little things that home ownership requires.)
And I have accepted that he will never manage his money the way I would like him to, but so long as he's paying his debts, can afford to get to work at the end of the month, and has some sort of emergency fund so that if he lost his job he would be OK, I don't mind taking on more of the responsibility for budgeting and saving for our future.
Lucky guy. He gets to squeak by while you do the financial heavy lifting AND he gets to be controlling about how you clean.
I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem- and that wouldn't solve the mess issue, just the tidiness issue- I would love to throw money at this situation!
Again, this is your home and you're doing the hard work to keep things financially healthy. If you decide this is a money vs. time issue and you want to pay someone to clean so you can spend your energy on something else, do it! That's the great thing about being an adult. He doesn't get to decide that this is some sort of morality flaw you are required to work on. I know you want to be a team, but it doesn't sound like he's playing fair.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 7:21 AM on August 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
You didn't specify if he would be paying you rent or if he would be added to the mortgage, but I would be very reluctant to financially entangle myself with this man based on his past behavior and the sense of unyielding entitlement he has about the house that you worked hard to buy. (And for crying out loud maybe you're too busy to pick up that magazine because you're working in the garden or mowing the lawn or doing any one of a million other little things that home ownership requires.)
And I have accepted that he will never manage his money the way I would like him to, but so long as he's paying his debts, can afford to get to work at the end of the month, and has some sort of emergency fund so that if he lost his job he would be OK, I don't mind taking on more of the responsibility for budgeting and saving for our future.
Lucky guy. He gets to squeak by while you do the financial heavy lifting AND he gets to be controlling about how you clean.
I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem- and that wouldn't solve the mess issue, just the tidiness issue- I would love to throw money at this situation!
Again, this is your home and you're doing the hard work to keep things financially healthy. If you decide this is a money vs. time issue and you want to pay someone to clean so you can spend your energy on something else, do it! That's the great thing about being an adult. He doesn't get to decide that this is some sort of morality flaw you are required to work on. I know you want to be a team, but it doesn't sound like he's playing fair.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 7:21 AM on August 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
Nope, you guys are not currently compatible for cohabitation. If he were my problem, I'd want two things from him: one, stop going on about the fact that he learned from you how to avoid financial ruin as if it were something he did mostly for you. No, it may have been partly for you but it was mostly for himself. Two, STHU about the way you keep your house. In order to do that, though, he has to be let off the hook about moving in. He keeps his space as he likes it, you keep your space as you like it, and you live happily ever after, or at least for a while. I don't think the thing will survive more than a month or two if you try to live together at your current life stages.
Meanwhile, why not be a sloven instead of a slattern? Then you can join the Crone Island sloven coven. It works like this: we all live in separate huts that we flounder about in, and we pay the natural neatniks on the island enormous amounts of money--and margaritas and tacos and hand-knitted socks--to come and help us keep the fruitfly population under control and the surfaces all sparkly. I love a tidy space, but I do not have it in me to make one. I paint doorknobs and prune lilacs all day long.
Oh, and I second whoever recommended UFYH. It is awesome.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:24 AM on August 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
Meanwhile, why not be a sloven instead of a slattern? Then you can join the Crone Island sloven coven. It works like this: we all live in separate huts that we flounder about in, and we pay the natural neatniks on the island enormous amounts of money--and margaritas and tacos and hand-knitted socks--to come and help us keep the fruitfly population under control and the surfaces all sparkly. I love a tidy space, but I do not have it in me to make one. I paint doorknobs and prune lilacs all day long.
Oh, and I second whoever recommended UFYH. It is awesome.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:24 AM on August 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
I will answer this:
Can my wonderful boyfriend learn to lower his standards so we meet somewhere in the middle? Should he? He does not feel he is particularly particular.
With this: he can. I know this because I did. The mantra that helps me, and I am an I-need-things-a-particular-way person, is this - "you can have things exactly the way you want them, or you can have help - and you have to pick ONE".
posted by ersatzkat at 7:24 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Can my wonderful boyfriend learn to lower his standards so we meet somewhere in the middle? Should he? He does not feel he is particularly particular.
With this: he can. I know this because I did. The mantra that helps me, and I am an I-need-things-a-particular-way person, is this - "you can have things exactly the way you want them, or you can have help - and you have to pick ONE".
posted by ersatzkat at 7:24 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes, I agree with phunniemee, I don't think this is really quite so much about differences in lifestyle (although you two are different), as it is about power, control and communication.
My girlfriend and I have very different standards of what the word "clean" means. She sees things that I don't, feels uncomfortable when I'm comfortable and generally feels the need to tidy up far more than I do. That said, I have come a long way. Before I met her, I worked a lot on my housekeeping skills, just for my own sanity. I started to get better about doing dishes, keeping the house generally neat and segregating mess to only one "junk" room.
However, my standards are still far below my partner's. For example, I am not good at washing dishes. At all. She sometimes has to re-wash my dishes or (more often) set aside dishes I didn't wash properly so I can handle it. If she's in a room that feels messy to her, she can't relax. I didn't understand this when I first met her, but I have a much better appreciation of how she actually feels.
We accept that we are different in this way, and we bicker occasionally, but mostly we try to understand how the other person feels. I recognize that clutter makes her physically and mentally ill at ease. She recognizes that I like to put my energy on other things besides housework. I know that to live with her, I have to adjust. She knows that she can be a bit too obsessive about cleaning at times and she tries to reel herself in, and allows me to reel her in when she's gone too far. She is mindful, at times, about nagging. And I try to be mindful of fairness -- it's not okay for her to have to re-wash my dishes all the time, so I try to actually do a better job.
Some things that work for us (and some things we are still working on):
1. If there is a housework task she is good at that I am not good at, I ask for a lesson. Sometimes I need several lessons, but she will walk me through, step by step, how she does what she does so well.
2. Compromise. She likes to do the dishes immediately after dinner. I don't. So when she cooks, and it's my turn to do the dishes, I get to do them later in the evening -- the rule is just that they need to be done before bed. She also has learned to tolerate things being imperfect at times. We can meet each other in the middle (or at least try) because we share the value of meeting in the middle.
You can't do this unless both of you are on the same page that meeting in the middle is a thing that you are committed to doing.
3. Honesty. If she's feeling overwhelmed or upset with my mess, she can tell me. If I'm feeling pissed at her nagging me, I can tell her. Sometimes she will ask if she's nagging me and I can answer her honestly. We might squabble, but at least we can be authentic. We try to balance being honest and assertive with being loving and compassionate. We try to watch our tone even when we're frustrated. It's not always easy but we try.
4. Respect and empathy. Because I respect and love her -- and I know she loves and respects me -- then we have a good bedrock upon which to deal with the household squabbles. I don't feel resentful about her pestering me (most of the time), because I care about her and I want her to be comfortable in our home -- and I also appreciate how amazing she is with housework. I admire this about her. She understands how I grew up and why I am the way I am and can empathize more with my I don't clean house the way she does.
5. Assigning household chores. This is something we are still working on. Our goal is to have a clear outline of who does what and to check in regularly about how the chores are going. This hasn't really happened yet in an organized way, but we're getting there.
6. Mutual training. I feel like I have to change a lot to adopt her household habits, but I also have certain ways I like things to be done -- what I appreciate is that she's willing to be attentive to my preferences, too. So, we end up training each other to make our everyday lives more enjoyable -- it's not just a one way street with me doing things the way she likes. There's balance.
7. Specificity. It helps me when I know *exactly* what my girlfriend means by "cleaning the kitchen". It took a long time before she explicitly told me that this included cleaning behind the faucet every time we do the dishes. But her being explicit about that also allowed me to be explicit about the fact that I like the dish rack to be cleaned regularly too. So, perhaps try to talk about what exactly needs to be done in each room so that you both understand the nitty gritty details of what "clean" means to you.
8. Rewards. I feel like I deserve recognition when I make strides. I had to tell her that positive reinforcement would help me integrate new household habits more easily and quickly. I'm more likely to feel encouraged if she recognizes that all the dishes were cleaned correctly than if she only speaks up with she finds a mug that still has a lip mark.
9. Humor. We laugh a lot in general and joke about chores, too. Playfulness can really help smooth things over -- I can tease her about being OCD and she can tease me about the dishes. But we can joke about these things because we have genuine affection for each other and are continually filling to love and appreciation bank.
10. Excellence. I'm a really good cook and I cook most of the time. So she cuts me some slack with household stuff. She's an amazing house-cleaner, so she gets to relax at dinner time. Our excellence in different departments makes it easier to want to compromise.
OP, it's hard to know how much of a slob you are without details, but if you are really messy, then it isn't fair to ask your boyfriend to tolerate it because you tolerated his financial issues. And honestly, what stuck out to me is that you said you "begged, cajoled" and gave him ultimatums to make him get his finances together. This isn't the way a healthy relationship is supposed to work. If his finances so bad that you had to "beg" and "cajole" him, then that means you probably lost some respect for him and he probably felt controlled and infantilized. Those kinds of dynamics create cycles of resentment -- which is probably what you are dealing with now.
He should have gotten his finances together for himself. You should want to be less of a slob for yourself. I think both mutual respect and adult-level-maturity may be lacking here and I would focus your attention there, rather than the immediate issue of housekeeping.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:26 AM on August 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
My girlfriend and I have very different standards of what the word "clean" means. She sees things that I don't, feels uncomfortable when I'm comfortable and generally feels the need to tidy up far more than I do. That said, I have come a long way. Before I met her, I worked a lot on my housekeeping skills, just for my own sanity. I started to get better about doing dishes, keeping the house generally neat and segregating mess to only one "junk" room.
However, my standards are still far below my partner's. For example, I am not good at washing dishes. At all. She sometimes has to re-wash my dishes or (more often) set aside dishes I didn't wash properly so I can handle it. If she's in a room that feels messy to her, she can't relax. I didn't understand this when I first met her, but I have a much better appreciation of how she actually feels.
We accept that we are different in this way, and we bicker occasionally, but mostly we try to understand how the other person feels. I recognize that clutter makes her physically and mentally ill at ease. She recognizes that I like to put my energy on other things besides housework. I know that to live with her, I have to adjust. She knows that she can be a bit too obsessive about cleaning at times and she tries to reel herself in, and allows me to reel her in when she's gone too far. She is mindful, at times, about nagging. And I try to be mindful of fairness -- it's not okay for her to have to re-wash my dishes all the time, so I try to actually do a better job.
Some things that work for us (and some things we are still working on):
1. If there is a housework task she is good at that I am not good at, I ask for a lesson. Sometimes I need several lessons, but she will walk me through, step by step, how she does what she does so well.
2. Compromise. She likes to do the dishes immediately after dinner. I don't. So when she cooks, and it's my turn to do the dishes, I get to do them later in the evening -- the rule is just that they need to be done before bed. She also has learned to tolerate things being imperfect at times. We can meet each other in the middle (or at least try) because we share the value of meeting in the middle.
You can't do this unless both of you are on the same page that meeting in the middle is a thing that you are committed to doing.
3. Honesty. If she's feeling overwhelmed or upset with my mess, she can tell me. If I'm feeling pissed at her nagging me, I can tell her. Sometimes she will ask if she's nagging me and I can answer her honestly. We might squabble, but at least we can be authentic. We try to balance being honest and assertive with being loving and compassionate. We try to watch our tone even when we're frustrated. It's not always easy but we try.
4. Respect and empathy. Because I respect and love her -- and I know she loves and respects me -- then we have a good bedrock upon which to deal with the household squabbles. I don't feel resentful about her pestering me (most of the time), because I care about her and I want her to be comfortable in our home -- and I also appreciate how amazing she is with housework. I admire this about her. She understands how I grew up and why I am the way I am and can empathize more with my I don't clean house the way she does.
5. Assigning household chores. This is something we are still working on. Our goal is to have a clear outline of who does what and to check in regularly about how the chores are going. This hasn't really happened yet in an organized way, but we're getting there.
6. Mutual training. I feel like I have to change a lot to adopt her household habits, but I also have certain ways I like things to be done -- what I appreciate is that she's willing to be attentive to my preferences, too. So, we end up training each other to make our everyday lives more enjoyable -- it's not just a one way street with me doing things the way she likes. There's balance.
7. Specificity. It helps me when I know *exactly* what my girlfriend means by "cleaning the kitchen". It took a long time before she explicitly told me that this included cleaning behind the faucet every time we do the dishes. But her being explicit about that also allowed me to be explicit about the fact that I like the dish rack to be cleaned regularly too. So, perhaps try to talk about what exactly needs to be done in each room so that you both understand the nitty gritty details of what "clean" means to you.
8. Rewards. I feel like I deserve recognition when I make strides. I had to tell her that positive reinforcement would help me integrate new household habits more easily and quickly. I'm more likely to feel encouraged if she recognizes that all the dishes were cleaned correctly than if she only speaks up with she finds a mug that still has a lip mark.
9. Humor. We laugh a lot in general and joke about chores, too. Playfulness can really help smooth things over -- I can tease her about being OCD and she can tease me about the dishes. But we can joke about these things because we have genuine affection for each other and are continually filling to love and appreciation bank.
10. Excellence. I'm a really good cook and I cook most of the time. So she cuts me some slack with household stuff. She's an amazing house-cleaner, so she gets to relax at dinner time. Our excellence in different departments makes it easier to want to compromise.
OP, it's hard to know how much of a slob you are without details, but if you are really messy, then it isn't fair to ask your boyfriend to tolerate it because you tolerated his financial issues. And honestly, what stuck out to me is that you said you "begged, cajoled" and gave him ultimatums to make him get his finances together. This isn't the way a healthy relationship is supposed to work. If his finances so bad that you had to "beg" and "cajole" him, then that means you probably lost some respect for him and he probably felt controlled and infantilized. Those kinds of dynamics create cycles of resentment -- which is probably what you are dealing with now.
He should have gotten his finances together for himself. You should want to be less of a slob for yourself. I think both mutual respect and adult-level-maturity may be lacking here and I would focus your attention there, rather than the immediate issue of housekeeping.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:26 AM on August 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense
Okay, this attitude cannot coexist with "our relationship is strong, we are respectful towards each other, and communicate well." It is either the first thing or it is the second thing.
Because reasonable communication does not involve "my way is the only option" except maaaaaaaybe maybe maybe in a high-stakes situation like "our child should never be alone with my uncle end of discussion" or "peanuts will KILL me, we will not have them in the house."
Someone who is so inflexible he's willing to risk losing his job is not going to compromise with you on this, and the way he scolds and lords you helping him (what, even, is that? This is a huge red flag, and is also the absolute opposite of respect) is a terrible sign.
Your question is "can he change" but what you really have to ask is "can I change him to be how I want" and that answer is no. He might change...and finish crossing the line to verbal abuse. He might change and break up with you.
A really serious thing you need to think about is whether you plan to have children with this man, and if so, do you accept having your children living with his rules and being spoken to the way he speaks to you? In all likelihood, he's going to punish them for acting like children, so is that okay with you? Probably the single most important decision a woman makes in her entire life is who she procreates with, because it gives him control over her for at least 18 years, with hostages. Is this how you want your life?
I think you should dump him because he's mad at you for making him fix his shit. Probably you shouldn't have done it in the first place, it doesn't sound like he wanted your help, and you should have ended it then, but he resents you for it and that doesn't go away. (And you've already put yourself in that mother role we discussed in the EL thread.) And that's not the behavior of a person who likes you, so it may be time for you to let him be the person he's showing you he is, and if you don't like that person, leave.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:27 AM on August 4, 2015 [23 favorites]
Okay, this attitude cannot coexist with "our relationship is strong, we are respectful towards each other, and communicate well." It is either the first thing or it is the second thing.
Because reasonable communication does not involve "my way is the only option" except maaaaaaaybe maybe maybe in a high-stakes situation like "our child should never be alone with my uncle end of discussion" or "peanuts will KILL me, we will not have them in the house."
Someone who is so inflexible he's willing to risk losing his job is not going to compromise with you on this, and the way he scolds and lords you helping him (what, even, is that? This is a huge red flag, and is also the absolute opposite of respect) is a terrible sign.
Your question is "can he change" but what you really have to ask is "can I change him to be how I want" and that answer is no. He might change...and finish crossing the line to verbal abuse. He might change and break up with you.
A really serious thing you need to think about is whether you plan to have children with this man, and if so, do you accept having your children living with his rules and being spoken to the way he speaks to you? In all likelihood, he's going to punish them for acting like children, so is that okay with you? Probably the single most important decision a woman makes in her entire life is who she procreates with, because it gives him control over her for at least 18 years, with hostages. Is this how you want your life?
I think you should dump him because he's mad at you for making him fix his shit. Probably you shouldn't have done it in the first place, it doesn't sound like he wanted your help, and you should have ended it then, but he resents you for it and that doesn't go away. (And you've already put yourself in that mother role we discussed in the EL thread.) And that's not the behavior of a person who likes you, so it may be time for you to let him be the person he's showing you he is, and if you don't like that person, leave.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:27 AM on August 4, 2015 [23 favorites]
I'm going to agree with most of the folks here that he is using this to achieve power over you. He may feel a bit "emasculated" by you having to teach him to manage money (for his benefit!), so he's trying to gain the upper hand.
I know you love him, but he's not playing kindly.
posted by heathrowga at 7:32 AM on August 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I know you love him, but he's not playing kindly.
posted by heathrowga at 7:32 AM on August 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm more worried about his attitude about the help you gave him with money management, than about the cleaning thing.
Don't get me wrong, the cleaning thing is a problem and it would take a lot effort on both your parts to come to a compromise on it. But he should be thanking you on his knees for the onerous work you did helping him get it together financially! And instead, he's acting like he did you a favor, and you should now do MORE onerous work for him, to thank him for getting his own life out of the toilet.
I wouldn't move in with him, because it sounds like it would be super stressful and the foundation isn't there. He doesn't really Get It and he doesn't understand the difference between preferences (his) and being a functional adult. And since he doesn't get it, your work will always be undervalued and resented.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Don't get me wrong, the cleaning thing is a problem and it would take a lot effort on both your parts to come to a compromise on it. But he should be thanking you on his knees for the onerous work you did helping him get it together financially! And instead, he's acting like he did you a favor, and you should now do MORE onerous work for him, to thank him for getting his own life out of the toilet.
I wouldn't move in with him, because it sounds like it would be super stressful and the foundation isn't there. He doesn't really Get It and he doesn't understand the difference between preferences (his) and being a functional adult. And since he doesn't get it, your work will always be undervalued and resented.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem- and that wouldn't solve the mess issue, just the tidiness issue- I would love to throw money at this situation!
Big red flag. If he's not trying to solve this, and is instead trying to turn you into a radically different person, then I would not even consider moving in with him. I see why you are considering breaking up, but you need to understand that it's not because he's "a neat freak". It's because he's not being nice, or as heathrowga says, "he's not playing kindly". A nice person wouldn't respond this way to the cleaner idea. He's trying to control you and shame you and that's not okay.
Also: everyone is right about how huge household cleaning is in a relationship. It may seem like a small issue now, but the fact is, you are already fighting about it and you don't even live together. If you lived together, you would be fighting every single day, walking on eggshells. You simply can't live with someone who doesn't have a kind, empathetic attitude about meeting you halfway on this.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Big red flag. If he's not trying to solve this, and is instead trying to turn you into a radically different person, then I would not even consider moving in with him. I see why you are considering breaking up, but you need to understand that it's not because he's "a neat freak". It's because he's not being nice, or as heathrowga says, "he's not playing kindly". A nice person wouldn't respond this way to the cleaner idea. He's trying to control you and shame you and that's not okay.
Also: everyone is right about how huge household cleaning is in a relationship. It may seem like a small issue now, but the fact is, you are already fighting about it and you don't even live together. If you lived together, you would be fighting every single day, walking on eggshells. You simply can't live with someone who doesn't have a kind, empathetic attitude about meeting you halfway on this.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm a slob female who moved in with a tidy male 20+ years ago, and still lives with him. We have both drifted toward compromise, and still argue pleasantly (mostly) from time to time. In other words: Be prepared for this to be a long-term issue. If you're at dealbreakers and ultimatums now, I agree with much of this thread: you should look for the root of the problem elsewhere.
Part of what prompted me to ask this question was the emotional labour thread- I realised I sounded like one of the dudes in those stories on there- 'I just don't see it honey!' and 'if it bothers you so much just do it'! And it made me feel terrible.
I really wish that part of the conversation had more acknowledgement that housework issues are not always about gender expectations. If you recognize a lot of yourself in those anecdotes, you might find reading about ADHD tactics and managing ADHD/non ADHD relationships really useful -- whether you actually have ADHD or not.
posted by gnomeloaf at 7:49 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Part of what prompted me to ask this question was the emotional labour thread- I realised I sounded like one of the dudes in those stories on there- 'I just don't see it honey!' and 'if it bothers you so much just do it'! And it made me feel terrible.
I really wish that part of the conversation had more acknowledgement that housework issues are not always about gender expectations. If you recognize a lot of yourself in those anecdotes, you might find reading about ADHD tactics and managing ADHD/non ADHD relationships really useful -- whether you actually have ADHD or not.
posted by gnomeloaf at 7:49 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I had a boyfriend exactly like this. It was not about my clutter. It was about him trying to control me. I threw out over half of my stuff in an attempt to pare down so that there wouldn't be as much stuff to make messes with. He started yelling at me about what a slob I was.
I started being obsessively tidy everywhere in our house except for my desk, which he "let" me keep however I wanted because as he said, "it's your desk." Then he started in on the little motivational notes I had written on post-it notes and taped over my desk: "Those are really distracting whenever I walk by. Why don't you take them down. You don't need them to work." Actually, they helped me work - they were motivational! - but ok, I didn't want him to be distracted and unhappy. And maybe he was right; maybe they were subconsciously distracting me, too.
Then it was under the desk. "Is that the best place to store your foot pedal for your computer when you're not using it?" Well, I sort of thought so, since it meant that all I had to do to use it was to engage the software, but maybe he was right.
And then it was the shelf next to my desk. I kept too much paperwork. Couldn't I just scan everything and throw it out? He didn't keep dead trees around taking up space for no reason.
But I still had my desk top, my 6 square feet of space that I could clutter up however I wanted. Six whole square feet in the house were mine!
It's pretty hard to be yourself with only 6 square feet to do it in.
posted by sockermom at 8:01 AM on August 4, 2015 [27 favorites]
I started being obsessively tidy everywhere in our house except for my desk, which he "let" me keep however I wanted because as he said, "it's your desk." Then he started in on the little motivational notes I had written on post-it notes and taped over my desk: "Those are really distracting whenever I walk by. Why don't you take them down. You don't need them to work." Actually, they helped me work - they were motivational! - but ok, I didn't want him to be distracted and unhappy. And maybe he was right; maybe they were subconsciously distracting me, too.
Then it was under the desk. "Is that the best place to store your foot pedal for your computer when you're not using it?" Well, I sort of thought so, since it meant that all I had to do to use it was to engage the software, but maybe he was right.
And then it was the shelf next to my desk. I kept too much paperwork. Couldn't I just scan everything and throw it out? He didn't keep dead trees around taking up space for no reason.
But I still had my desk top, my 6 square feet of space that I could clutter up however I wanted. Six whole square feet in the house were mine!
It's pretty hard to be yourself with only 6 square feet to do it in.
posted by sockermom at 8:01 AM on August 4, 2015 [27 favorites]
Living with different tolerances for messiness is one thing. But trying to live with someone who sounds like they have serious mental health issues around where things go (your story about his inability to work at work) is very much more difficult. Has he ever shown any interest in getting therapy or meds? Control issues and a need to be right are often linked with anxiety.
Also, be aware that you're using a lot of loaded language in your post. "Slob" and "slattern" are the sort of words I would not accept from my partner as name-calling. Further, your terms are about fundamental differences in who each of you is as a person ("an inveterate slob" vs "a compulsive cleaner"), rather than about behaviors that can be changed to create compromise. Both of those things are likely to exacerbate the fightiness of the situation.
posted by ldthomps at 8:02 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, be aware that you're using a lot of loaded language in your post. "Slob" and "slattern" are the sort of words I would not accept from my partner as name-calling. Further, your terms are about fundamental differences in who each of you is as a person ("an inveterate slob" vs "a compulsive cleaner"), rather than about behaviors that can be changed to create compromise. Both of those things are likely to exacerbate the fightiness of the situation.
posted by ldthomps at 8:02 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I agree with gnomeloaf that being a sloven is equal-opportunity. Women are the ones who suffer slovenguilt, though, and we get the special extra just-for-us slur (slattern). I mega-agree with SpacemanStix: it is so worth it to hire a cleaner. They won't pick up and put away stuff on floors or flat surfaces; you have to learn how to do that. But they'll sort and assemble clutter for you, which makes it easier to put things away because it reduces the visual barf that is a pile of random stuff you have to figure out how to sort. Occasionally mine will do a little tiny reorganization on a small space in my house, and it's like, "Oh, I see, I see! I could do it this way!" (OMG, this reminds me, I have to get a stack of magazines and books off her most-recent amazing re-org in order to reduce the Sisyphus quotient for her.)
posted by Don Pepino at 8:11 AM on August 4, 2015
posted by Don Pepino at 8:11 AM on August 4, 2015
I generally agree with the thrust of the other comments (and particularly that he has no legitimate business complaining about you helping him get his finances together -- that was very generous of you).
But I will say that, as someone who is not really a neat freak, the habits you describe that you don't think are that bad would annoy the hell out of me. Sure, it's just a handbag sitting on the sofa, but now what am I supposed to do when I want to sit on the sofa? Put it away for you every day? Or sit there cradling it on my lap and stroking it like a beloved kittycat? Okay, so no-go on the sofa. How about the chair? Oh, wait, there's a coat on it. It's not comfortable to sit in a chair while there's a coat hanging on it.
I can understand why you'd feel that a few things left on the furniture isn't a big deal, because it's so easy to clean up, but you're the person who should be putting your stuff away. Otherwise it leaves him with the choice of either cleaning up after you every day or, like, not using furniture. And having a maid service come by once a week wouldn't do anything to help with that. I think if he were doing the things you describe, you'd probably be annoyed too. ("Why do I have to pick up his junk just to sit down on the sofa? Why do I have to pick up his junk just to make a sandwich?", etc. etc. etc., day in and day out.)
All the minor habits you're describing (except the magazines -- unless they're accumulating, he has no business complaining about those) have the effect of rendering parts of the house you're not using unusable for him, unless he continually picks up after you. I'd be very annoyed to have a partner thoughtlessly occupying otherwise useful furniture just to avoid spending a few extra seconds putting their coat and bag away.
posted by mister pointy at 8:21 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
But I will say that, as someone who is not really a neat freak, the habits you describe that you don't think are that bad would annoy the hell out of me. Sure, it's just a handbag sitting on the sofa, but now what am I supposed to do when I want to sit on the sofa? Put it away for you every day? Or sit there cradling it on my lap and stroking it like a beloved kittycat? Okay, so no-go on the sofa. How about the chair? Oh, wait, there's a coat on it. It's not comfortable to sit in a chair while there's a coat hanging on it.
I can understand why you'd feel that a few things left on the furniture isn't a big deal, because it's so easy to clean up, but you're the person who should be putting your stuff away. Otherwise it leaves him with the choice of either cleaning up after you every day or, like, not using furniture. And having a maid service come by once a week wouldn't do anything to help with that. I think if he were doing the things you describe, you'd probably be annoyed too. ("Why do I have to pick up his junk just to sit down on the sofa? Why do I have to pick up his junk just to make a sandwich?", etc. etc. etc., day in and day out.)
All the minor habits you're describing (except the magazines -- unless they're accumulating, he has no business complaining about those) have the effect of rendering parts of the house you're not using unusable for him, unless he continually picks up after you. I'd be very annoyed to have a partner thoughtlessly occupying otherwise useful furniture just to avoid spending a few extra seconds putting their coat and bag away.
posted by mister pointy at 8:21 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Huh. Different strokes, I guess:
"...it's just a handbag sitting on the sofa, but now what am I supposed to do when I want to sit on the sofa? Put it away for you every day? Or sit there cradling it on my lap and stroking it like a beloved kittycat?"
It's a sofa, right? Most of them have ass-space for at least three people. If I came in to the room and found, say, my mom's knitting or my brother's jacket or my boyfriend's hat on the sofa, I would either leave it where it was or move it to one end of the sofa and then I would sit down and flip on Netflix. I might indeed give the item a little pat in the process of shifting it because it is something familiar associated with someone I love, showing that recently that loved person occupied the sofa. Same with a coat on the back of a chair. It's more comfortable to sit in a chair that has the coat of someone I love on the back of it than to sit in a plain unadorned chair.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:33 AM on August 4, 2015 [17 favorites]
"...it's just a handbag sitting on the sofa, but now what am I supposed to do when I want to sit on the sofa? Put it away for you every day? Or sit there cradling it on my lap and stroking it like a beloved kittycat?"
It's a sofa, right? Most of them have ass-space for at least three people. If I came in to the room and found, say, my mom's knitting or my brother's jacket or my boyfriend's hat on the sofa, I would either leave it where it was or move it to one end of the sofa and then I would sit down and flip on Netflix. I might indeed give the item a little pat in the process of shifting it because it is something familiar associated with someone I love, showing that recently that loved person occupied the sofa. Same with a coat on the back of a chair. It's more comfortable to sit in a chair that has the coat of someone I love on the back of it than to sit in a plain unadorned chair.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:33 AM on August 4, 2015 [17 favorites]
I was thinking about this some more, and from the way you describe it (that you bought a house and he doesn't want to move in with you), it seems that these fights have been when he is visiting you at your place. If that's the case (rather than if they are when you visit him at his place), then I think his attitude is pretty outrageous.
It's one thing to be concerned about what would happen if you did move in together and to not want to because of these differences, it's another thing to be demanding that your gf/bf not put their bag on a couch in their house that they bought and they pay the mortgage on and where you do not actually live or pay rent/mortgage.
posted by thdavis at 9:29 AM on August 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
It's one thing to be concerned about what would happen if you did move in together and to not want to because of these differences, it's another thing to be demanding that your gf/bf not put their bag on a couch in their house that they bought and they pay the mortgage on and where you do not actually live or pay rent/mortgage.
posted by thdavis at 9:29 AM on August 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
Honestly? Unless there's some super-compelling reason to live together, why bother? Are you both struggling financially, so much that two households are unsustainable? However, I will say that this:
the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense
in my opinion, isn't as terrible a thought process as it sounds like. It sounds childish and tyrannical when it's all written out but let's be honest: Secretly, on some level, we ALL kind of feel this way about something--whether it's how to hang the toilet paper roll or what kind of crust a "real" pizza has or whether you actually dry clean the things that say "dry clean only" or whatever.
Has he ever had roommates or shared significant space with someone before? If not, then I would actually feel pretty optimistic that this attitude can change. (If he works on it.) I live with someone who similarly had incredibly rigid ideas about How To Do The Things, because he had literally never even shared a bathroom with someone before. He had just always had all his own space, all his life. It was a rough transition to living with me, AND a pet--another thing he'd never experienced--and I really struggled at times with the thought of "oh my god, I'll never feel at home in my home again."
But in not that long, we hammered it out. Key to it was that he really does respect me and think that I'm a smart and functioning human, so when I kept reminding him that, you know, I survived 30 years without doing things his way, he could remember that I did things for reasons that were just as good as his. And, I learned a lot from him, too. A lot of the stuff he was so rigid about really IS more efficient/effective/pleasant than the way I did it. Nowadays we have a pretty pleasant division of labor and I think, cat hair aside, a pleasant home, which is probably more orderly than I'd have on my own and messier than he'd have on his own, but in which we both feel perfectly comfortable.
If you think that your boyfriend can let the truly little and BS stuff slide, if you think that he fundamentally respects your thought process and ability to reason, AND, finally, if you're willing for your relationship to be kind of a hard job for a little while, well, go forth.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:33 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
the way he wants to live is the only way that makes sense
in my opinion, isn't as terrible a thought process as it sounds like. It sounds childish and tyrannical when it's all written out but let's be honest: Secretly, on some level, we ALL kind of feel this way about something--whether it's how to hang the toilet paper roll or what kind of crust a "real" pizza has or whether you actually dry clean the things that say "dry clean only" or whatever.
Has he ever had roommates or shared significant space with someone before? If not, then I would actually feel pretty optimistic that this attitude can change. (If he works on it.) I live with someone who similarly had incredibly rigid ideas about How To Do The Things, because he had literally never even shared a bathroom with someone before. He had just always had all his own space, all his life. It was a rough transition to living with me, AND a pet--another thing he'd never experienced--and I really struggled at times with the thought of "oh my god, I'll never feel at home in my home again."
But in not that long, we hammered it out. Key to it was that he really does respect me and think that I'm a smart and functioning human, so when I kept reminding him that, you know, I survived 30 years without doing things his way, he could remember that I did things for reasons that were just as good as his. And, I learned a lot from him, too. A lot of the stuff he was so rigid about really IS more efficient/effective/pleasant than the way I did it. Nowadays we have a pretty pleasant division of labor and I think, cat hair aside, a pleasant home, which is probably more orderly than I'd have on my own and messier than he'd have on his own, but in which we both feel perfectly comfortable.
If you think that your boyfriend can let the truly little and BS stuff slide, if you think that he fundamentally respects your thought process and ability to reason, AND, finally, if you're willing for your relationship to be kind of a hard job for a little while, well, go forth.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:33 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
He's saying no to a housecleaner. That says to me this has nothing whatsoever to do with mess, or maybe it has something to do with some sort of moral judgement.
There's no comparison between untidiness and financial irresponsibility. One has profound lasting effects on your entire life, and the other is a bit of clutter. So it's both unfair and unreasonable of him to make the comparison.
The thing for me is, is the problem mess/clutter, or dirt? If it's the latter he has a leg to stand on. If it's the former, negotiate a middle ground. You are well within your rights to say "This is as far as I will go, because some clutter simply doesn't matter to me. If you want less, your choices are to agree to hire a housekeeper or to do it yourself."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:34 AM on August 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
There's no comparison between untidiness and financial irresponsibility. One has profound lasting effects on your entire life, and the other is a bit of clutter. So it's both unfair and unreasonable of him to make the comparison.
The thing for me is, is the problem mess/clutter, or dirt? If it's the latter he has a leg to stand on. If it's the former, negotiate a middle ground. You are well within your rights to say "This is as far as I will go, because some clutter simply doesn't matter to me. If you want less, your choices are to agree to hire a housekeeper or to do it yourself."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:34 AM on August 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
On a practical note for how you might go about being more tidy, if you decide that's what you need to do: everything needs to have a place where it lives when not in use, and that spot should be convenient. Necklaces do not live on the kitchen counter, they live on the little hook on your dresser (or wherever); coats live near the door in closets or on a coat rack, not on chairs; and so forth. It's a LOT easier to be tidy/ier if there's a spot for everything, even if you're not actively trying to be tidy.
posted by mchorn at 9:35 AM on August 4, 2015
posted by mchorn at 9:35 AM on August 4, 2015
(I agree with others though that his refusal to go with the housecleaner solution, even in the short-term, is a bad sign about his potential flexibility and ability to be the partner I described in my answer above. But if he's the sort of person who can't function when someone moves his desk chair, well, the thought of a stranger touching ALL THE THINGS probably makes him want to die.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:56 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:56 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I see red flags all over this situation that indicate that this situation isn't about cleanliness - as other commenters have said, it's about control.
Red flag #1: he's acting like he only fixed his money situation for you, and that now you owe him. This is obviously backwards and silly; he fixed it for himself because he's an adult and doesn't want to live mired in poverty and debt. If he doesn't see it this way, that is a problem.
Red flag #2: he won't "let" you hire a housekeeper. That tells me this is about control and being right, not about having a clean house.
Red flag #3: he's acting this controlling about moving into your house, which you bought with your money! While I'm not saying you should hold it over his head or anything, he's acting like it's rightfully his house too somehow. For now, it's not. It's yours.
Red flag #4: it sounds like you had to do at least half the work in getting his budget in order anyway, with a lot of resentment and complaining from him along the way. That you had to buy him budget software and he still thinks of it as a big favor to you that you need to somehow repay is a huge red flag. Not only does he hold onto his resentment about you asking him to get his ducks in a row, he actively holds it against you that you tried to help him. That is a huge problem.
Personally, with all these red flags, I'd say the only way you can start having more productive conversations about this is to convince him to let go of his resentment about fixing his money situation. I would make it clear in no uncertain terms that I didn't want to hear another goddamned word about how great he is for acting like a baseline-level adult, and that it doesn't count as some huge personal favor to not be backsliding into debt all the time. Then I would tell him I was hiring a housekeeper for the bigger stuff, and make a reasonable effort just to put things away when you come home and as you go about your day. That's really all that should be required here if you're willing to hire somebody. And if he doesn't drop the resentment stuff pretty quickly, I would think about ending it, because you will find that the money thing won't be the only item that ends up on his obsessively curated Resentment Grievances / Reasons You Owe Me List if he usually has this transactional approach to relationships.
posted by dialetheia at 10:07 AM on August 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
Red flag #1: he's acting like he only fixed his money situation for you, and that now you owe him. This is obviously backwards and silly; he fixed it for himself because he's an adult and doesn't want to live mired in poverty and debt. If he doesn't see it this way, that is a problem.
Red flag #2: he won't "let" you hire a housekeeper. That tells me this is about control and being right, not about having a clean house.
Red flag #3: he's acting this controlling about moving into your house, which you bought with your money! While I'm not saying you should hold it over his head or anything, he's acting like it's rightfully his house too somehow. For now, it's not. It's yours.
Red flag #4: it sounds like you had to do at least half the work in getting his budget in order anyway, with a lot of resentment and complaining from him along the way. That you had to buy him budget software and he still thinks of it as a big favor to you that you need to somehow repay is a huge red flag. Not only does he hold onto his resentment about you asking him to get his ducks in a row, he actively holds it against you that you tried to help him. That is a huge problem.
Personally, with all these red flags, I'd say the only way you can start having more productive conversations about this is to convince him to let go of his resentment about fixing his money situation. I would make it clear in no uncertain terms that I didn't want to hear another goddamned word about how great he is for acting like a baseline-level adult, and that it doesn't count as some huge personal favor to not be backsliding into debt all the time. Then I would tell him I was hiring a housekeeper for the bigger stuff, and make a reasonable effort just to put things away when you come home and as you go about your day. That's really all that should be required here if you're willing to hire somebody. And if he doesn't drop the resentment stuff pretty quickly, I would think about ending it, because you will find that the money thing won't be the only item that ends up on his obsessively curated Resentment Grievances / Reasons You Owe Me List if he usually has this transactional approach to relationships.
posted by dialetheia at 10:07 AM on August 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
heatherann, that's interesting. Part of what prompted me to ask this question was the emotional labour thread- I realised I sounded like one of the dudes in those stories on there- 'I just don't see it honey!' and 'if it bothers you so much just do it'! And it made me feel terrible.
Well yeah, me too. :) But just as I am working with my partner on certain parts of emotional labour, and he is doing the work of being open to that and trying to change specific things, we both have similar roles in setting mutual cleaning habits. If he's not willing to coach or compromise (hire someone) or accept you as you are, then he is cutting off all of the reasonably possible options (unless you have a fairy godmother up your sleeve who can turn you into a Cleaner).
And with your update, if moving his mouse at work is grounds for working from home... That may be on the actual OCD spectrum and that is a MUCH bigger discussion.
posted by heatherann at 10:07 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well yeah, me too. :) But just as I am working with my partner on certain parts of emotional labour, and he is doing the work of being open to that and trying to change specific things, we both have similar roles in setting mutual cleaning habits. If he's not willing to coach or compromise (hire someone) or accept you as you are, then he is cutting off all of the reasonably possible options (unless you have a fairy godmother up your sleeve who can turn you into a Cleaner).
And with your update, if moving his mouse at work is grounds for working from home... That may be on the actual OCD spectrum and that is a MUCH bigger discussion.
posted by heatherann at 10:07 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Honestly he sounds like an immature little boy. You basically had to force him to start taking his finances seriously, but he wants you to clean like you're a hotel maid so that he can come home to turn-down service every day? I'd of left him a long time ago. Domestic irritations only get worse with time. I read a DM article about a couple that was going to divorce, until they literally renovated their flat so that they would have separate dwelling spaces, but the same bedroom. If you can't stand living on top of each other in the beginning, it's not going to get better with time. You need to find someone who's a. a grown up and responsible with money and b. not so up tight that they don't whine constantly about the small things
posted by Avosunspin at 10:13 AM on August 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Avosunspin at 10:13 AM on August 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
He feels incredibly resentful because he has changed his habits with money for me, and he thinks I should be able to do the same as this is just as important for his peace of mind.
This has been covered by a few people, but no one has used the term that brought it most into focus for me: this is scorekeeping, and it is incredibly fucking toxic to a relationship. Your life together is not a game that one of you gets to win, or even tie. If everything you do goes into the other person's mental scorebook to be weighed against everything that they do, at best each of you will resent it, and at worst you will never catch up, because the person who keeps score gets to weight each task, and it will always come out to their advantage ("Oh, sure, you cook and do the dishes and clean, but that's all inside, so it balances out to me mowing the lawn.").
posted by Etrigan at 10:14 AM on August 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
This has been covered by a few people, but no one has used the term that brought it most into focus for me: this is scorekeeping, and it is incredibly fucking toxic to a relationship. Your life together is not a game that one of you gets to win, or even tie. If everything you do goes into the other person's mental scorebook to be weighed against everything that they do, at best each of you will resent it, and at worst you will never catch up, because the person who keeps score gets to weight each task, and it will always come out to their advantage ("Oh, sure, you cook and do the dishes and clean, but that's all inside, so it balances out to me mowing the lawn.").
posted by Etrigan at 10:14 AM on August 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
So you help him put on his big boy pants about money and he acts like he did it for you? That it was a perfectly reasonable thing to be financially reckless and undisciplined as an adult and that he changed this because you have a weird fixation with financial stability? That's 1000% absurd and offensive. And, it completely misses the point of how to be a responsible adult. After working with someone to clean up a giant mess of their making, I would hardly be happy to hear them say that they did me a favor by allowing me to clean up a mess that only happened because they were irresponsible and immature. NO.
And now, he's attempting to make his unusual fixation on complete cleanliness at all times an equivalent to the financial situation? Double NO. From what you've written about your own habits, you're a clean person and reach the threshold of being tidy enough. It certainly doesn't sound like you keep your house a mess. Not at all. You simply live in a way that is not constantly obsessed with an unusually strong preference for extreme cleanliness. You have this area of your life under control and don't have the same obsession as boyfriend. That's not a deficit on your part. You're not lacking anything. You just have a different and completely acceptable standard. Yet, boyfriend doesn't see his unusually obsessive standard as anything but the standard that everyone else should live by. He's not owning his own radical preference as a preference. He's made it a standard. How nice that he's making his preference something that he can harangue, control and lord over you forever! In your own home! I would not allow this. Leaving a necklace on the counter temporarily (I'm pretty sure that you don't leave all your necklaces on your counters forever) is not something that a reasonable person who respects you and loves you should ever mention. He sounds controlling and, also, seems to lack self-awareness to an appalling degree. Don't buy into it. This is his thing. He needs to own it and figure out a way to manage his cleanliness anxieties without taking it out on you. I'm betting that if you look at other areas of your relationship, you may see similar patterns. This stuff doesn't get better with effort on your part. He'll probably just feel more entitled to compel you to accommodate his other needs for control and to be right.
posted by quince at 11:09 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
And now, he's attempting to make his unusual fixation on complete cleanliness at all times an equivalent to the financial situation? Double NO. From what you've written about your own habits, you're a clean person and reach the threshold of being tidy enough. It certainly doesn't sound like you keep your house a mess. Not at all. You simply live in a way that is not constantly obsessed with an unusually strong preference for extreme cleanliness. You have this area of your life under control and don't have the same obsession as boyfriend. That's not a deficit on your part. You're not lacking anything. You just have a different and completely acceptable standard. Yet, boyfriend doesn't see his unusually obsessive standard as anything but the standard that everyone else should live by. He's not owning his own radical preference as a preference. He's made it a standard. How nice that he's making his preference something that he can harangue, control and lord over you forever! In your own home! I would not allow this. Leaving a necklace on the counter temporarily (I'm pretty sure that you don't leave all your necklaces on your counters forever) is not something that a reasonable person who respects you and loves you should ever mention. He sounds controlling and, also, seems to lack self-awareness to an appalling degree. Don't buy into it. This is his thing. He needs to own it and figure out a way to manage his cleanliness anxieties without taking it out on you. I'm betting that if you look at other areas of your relationship, you may see similar patterns. This stuff doesn't get better with effort on your part. He'll probably just feel more entitled to compel you to accommodate his other needs for control and to be right.
posted by quince at 11:09 AM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't know, but it sounds like he might actually have OCD.
Is he open to considering talking to someone about that? If he does have OCD, the strategies for resolving this issue will be less about you becoming neater and more about him learning to tolerate his discomfort and cease trying so hard to control his environment.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:16 AM on August 4, 2015
Is he open to considering talking to someone about that? If he does have OCD, the strategies for resolving this issue will be less about you becoming neater and more about him learning to tolerate his discomfort and cease trying so hard to control his environment.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:16 AM on August 4, 2015
If he does have OCD, could you live together? Sure, but it would take a lot of work, and he would have to come to see that he is being unreasonable.
You might want to think about what he says about the desk fastidiousness. Does he recognize that he is being unreasonable and that this attitude could have serious implications for his employment status, or does he just rage at his colleagues playing tricks on him?
From the little background you have given, I think this will be very hard to fix. I wouldn't rush to move in together anytime soon.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:25 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
You might want to think about what he says about the desk fastidiousness. Does he recognize that he is being unreasonable and that this attitude could have serious implications for his employment status, or does he just rage at his colleagues playing tricks on him?
From the little background you have given, I think this will be very hard to fix. I wouldn't rush to move in together anytime soon.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:25 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
This isn't about the cleaniness of the house. This is about him wanting you to do things his way.
This was a major issue in my marriage -- from the time we were dating, my ex had issues with how neat I was and it was the only thing we fought about (on surface, in reality it was his way of expressing all of his anger). I would guess he still thinks my messiness is why we split.
The current person I'm dating is neater than me, and it's not an issue. He doesn't try to change me, and I make more of an effort to be neat.
This can cause lots of pent up resentment, so if you do stay with your boyfriend, you need to resolve the root issues.
Good luck.
posted by hrj at 11:26 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
This was a major issue in my marriage -- from the time we were dating, my ex had issues with how neat I was and it was the only thing we fought about (on surface, in reality it was his way of expressing all of his anger). I would guess he still thinks my messiness is why we split.
The current person I'm dating is neater than me, and it's not an issue. He doesn't try to change me, and I make more of an effort to be neat.
This can cause lots of pent up resentment, so if you do stay with your boyfriend, you need to resolve the root issues.
Good luck.
posted by hrj at 11:26 AM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
He feels incredibly resentful because he has changed his habits with money for me, and he thinks I should be able to do the same as this is just as important for his peace of mind.
I don't think he's being fair, here. I think you have already compromised on the housekeeping issue. He says you're a slob, you have changed what you can. Magazines on the table is not a filthy bathroom or an obstacle course that could trip him up.
The money issue is entirely separate. You already did compromise-- he's gotten some of his egregious financial stuff together, you're letting him move into your house. The progress he's made there don't track to the progress you've made in housekeeping. Apples and oranges.
And even if this were fair, you are not holding him to the financial standards to which you'd hold yourself. So why does he get to hold you to the cleanliness (not even cleanliness, organizational) standards to which he holds himself?
posted by kapers at 11:45 AM on August 4, 2015
I don't think he's being fair, here. I think you have already compromised on the housekeeping issue. He says you're a slob, you have changed what you can. Magazines on the table is not a filthy bathroom or an obstacle course that could trip him up.
The money issue is entirely separate. You already did compromise-- he's gotten some of his egregious financial stuff together, you're letting him move into your house. The progress he's made there don't track to the progress you've made in housekeeping. Apples and oranges.
And even if this were fair, you are not holding him to the financial standards to which you'd hold yourself. So why does he get to hold you to the cleanliness (not even cleanliness, organizational) standards to which he holds himself?
posted by kapers at 11:45 AM on August 4, 2015
Man, I don't see how it is totally okay to apply this moralistic attitude to money but not to cleanliness and I really think people in this thread are leading you astray if your goal is to figure out how to live together. (If your goal is to find the outrage that makes you right to, like, dump him or something then, sure.)
Being bad with money is not some horrible moral failing for which people should shunned. If you don't want to take the risk of ending up with more financial risk than you are comfortable with, you don't have to date the profligate, but his struggles aren't worth less than yours because they were about money. You know what *really* more than anything else made me better with money? Making more. Did I suddenly become for virtuous overnight? Do we remember the threads on why people who make little money make money decisions that look questionable from a more middle-class standpoint? Have you all read Wigan Pier?
He did something hard and he is asking for you to do something hard in return. It is ok to not want to; it is ok to decide you are incompatible, but I would really resist demonizing him.
Moving into your house is a big risk for him, too, you know? Is he going to be paying you rent that will go into *your* equity? Have you thought about how hard it is to move into someone else's space rather than into a new shared space? If you guys break up, he knows he has to leave; he is always there by your sufferance. That's a lot to ask for. Maybe he wants to feel like he at least has control over the way it feels inside.
Speaking of which: wanting control isn't always pathological. We all want to feel as though we can shape some part of the world to our desires and sometimes when you feel like it is hard to get in more normal ways, it comes out all strangled and weird. That means he needs help and you guys might need better patterns, but I am not sure it means he is bad.
Even the cleaner thing might not be a red flag. If the problem is just leaving things all over, a cleaner isn't going to make that any better. They clean, not pick up, in my experience.
Anyways, I am sorry this is a little all over the place, but well, I feel for the guy. He seems like he is in a hard position too.
posted by dame at 12:09 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Being bad with money is not some horrible moral failing for which people should shunned. If you don't want to take the risk of ending up with more financial risk than you are comfortable with, you don't have to date the profligate, but his struggles aren't worth less than yours because they were about money. You know what *really* more than anything else made me better with money? Making more. Did I suddenly become for virtuous overnight? Do we remember the threads on why people who make little money make money decisions that look questionable from a more middle-class standpoint? Have you all read Wigan Pier?
He did something hard and he is asking for you to do something hard in return. It is ok to not want to; it is ok to decide you are incompatible, but I would really resist demonizing him.
Moving into your house is a big risk for him, too, you know? Is he going to be paying you rent that will go into *your* equity? Have you thought about how hard it is to move into someone else's space rather than into a new shared space? If you guys break up, he knows he has to leave; he is always there by your sufferance. That's a lot to ask for. Maybe he wants to feel like he at least has control over the way it feels inside.
Speaking of which: wanting control isn't always pathological. We all want to feel as though we can shape some part of the world to our desires and sometimes when you feel like it is hard to get in more normal ways, it comes out all strangled and weird. That means he needs help and you guys might need better patterns, but I am not sure it means he is bad.
Even the cleaner thing might not be a red flag. If the problem is just leaving things all over, a cleaner isn't going to make that any better. They clean, not pick up, in my experience.
Anyways, I am sorry this is a little all over the place, but well, I feel for the guy. He seems like he is in a hard position too.
posted by dame at 12:09 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem.
If someone actually said this incredibly paternalistic, condescending thing out loud to me, I'd want to slap a bitch. What do mean, it "doesn't get to the root of the problem"? The problem is that things need to be cleaned. Hiring a cleaner is a totally valid way to solve that problem. Unless he's saying that the "problem" is that you're a bad person who sucks at being an adult because you leave some magazines and your purse out. In the house that you bought. Where he doesn't live.
And he's graciously going to "help you fix that problem" by making you feel like shit about yourself for living and cleaning the way you want to. But not by, you know, shutting up about it and actually helping you with the cleaning if it's that important to him. What the fuck? I wouldn't live with someone who would talk to me like that. (I also wouldn't date someone who talked to me like that, and I get really angry when my family talks to me like that.) Live your life the way that works for you; he doesn't get to judge that.
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:11 PM on August 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
If someone actually said this incredibly paternalistic, condescending thing out loud to me, I'd want to slap a bitch. What do mean, it "doesn't get to the root of the problem"? The problem is that things need to be cleaned. Hiring a cleaner is a totally valid way to solve that problem. Unless he's saying that the "problem" is that you're a bad person who sucks at being an adult because you leave some magazines and your purse out. In the house that you bought. Where he doesn't live.
And he's graciously going to "help you fix that problem" by making you feel like shit about yourself for living and cleaning the way you want to. But not by, you know, shutting up about it and actually helping you with the cleaning if it's that important to him. What the fuck? I wouldn't live with someone who would talk to me like that. (I also wouldn't date someone who talked to me like that, and I get really angry when my family talks to me like that.) Live your life the way that works for you; he doesn't get to judge that.
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:11 PM on August 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
I don't get how he has any right to forbid your hiring a cleaner (or a straightener-upper, or a home organizer) for your own house. Maybe you could amplify on why you are giving him this authority.
I've written a checklist, but so far it says :'nothing on the floor' and 'kitchen surfaces clear and clean'. I feel this might be a little basic.
Maybe it's basic, but it might be a useful start if it works for you. "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
On preview, maybe you need to clarify what you expect the "cleaner" to perform. You may need an organizer, rather than someone who merely cleans dirt off the floor. Consider this.
posted by JimN2TAW at 12:28 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've written a checklist, but so far it says :'nothing on the floor' and 'kitchen surfaces clear and clean'. I feel this might be a little basic.
Maybe it's basic, but it might be a useful start if it works for you. "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
On preview, maybe you need to clarify what you expect the "cleaner" to perform. You may need an organizer, rather than someone who merely cleans dirt off the floor. Consider this.
posted by JimN2TAW at 12:28 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Man, I'm normally the last person to jump to "DTMFA" in a relationship thread without knowing all the details, but...
My cleaning habits are like your boyfriend's. I would never in a million years require a partner to be 100% compliant with them, because most people would consider them waaaay over the top, and (as a more or less mature adult human being) I am capable of accepting that. Your boyfriend is not doing his job here as a partner. This is what happens in a healthy relationship:
1) Discuss each of your needs and figure out where each of you is willing to change your habits. (As you have already done by agreeing to keep items off stairs where they are a tripping hazard.)
2) Where you're both unwilling to change behaviors, figure out if there are situations where the more "clean" person is willing to do more work (like moving items off of the couch - which also means you are OK with him moving your stuff), or where you might need to create a cleaning schedule. Yes, it's not exactly romantic for a couple to run their shared home like it's a co-op, but it's smart.
3. Hire a cleaner if that's a good solution, for Pete's sake! [H]e feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem? Well, he's not the moral arbiter of your soul, so, sorry dude.
I feel like the housekeeping should be treated as a unique problem, without him dipping into the grievance bank and telling me how he's done something difficult for me, why can't I do the same for him? Indeed it should, because this is something that good partners do.
posted by capricorn at 1:28 PM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
My cleaning habits are like your boyfriend's. I would never in a million years require a partner to be 100% compliant with them, because most people would consider them waaaay over the top, and (as a more or less mature adult human being) I am capable of accepting that. Your boyfriend is not doing his job here as a partner. This is what happens in a healthy relationship:
1) Discuss each of your needs and figure out where each of you is willing to change your habits. (As you have already done by agreeing to keep items off stairs where they are a tripping hazard.)
2) Where you're both unwilling to change behaviors, figure out if there are situations where the more "clean" person is willing to do more work (like moving items off of the couch - which also means you are OK with him moving your stuff), or where you might need to create a cleaning schedule. Yes, it's not exactly romantic for a couple to run their shared home like it's a co-op, but it's smart.
3. Hire a cleaner if that's a good solution, for Pete's sake! [H]e feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem? Well, he's not the moral arbiter of your soul, so, sorry dude.
I feel like the housekeeping should be treated as a unique problem, without him dipping into the grievance bank and telling me how he's done something difficult for me, why can't I do the same for him? Indeed it should, because this is something that good partners do.
posted by capricorn at 1:28 PM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have suggested we get a cleaner but he feels like that's a cop out and doesn't get to the root of the problem- and that wouldn't solve the mess issue, just the tidiness issue- I would love to throw money at this situation!
I think i might be the only person who kind of gets this statement, which has been massively dumped on?
If you hire a cleaner, that doesn't solve the shoes-on-the-stairs type problem. If they come and clean once a week, there will likely be lots of mess by the time they come back.
It's a lead-a-horse-to-water type thing. Keeping a clean place isn't something you buy, or deal with a couple times a month, it's a process and you have to work at it a little every day. It works infinitely better as a maintenance activity with small steps here and there than a big once a week or less project where everything slowly slides down hill between Big Cleaning Events.
This really is a habbit that you need to break if you want to change the state of your place. Having someone else do it won't work because you'll keep contributing to the mess without picking it up.
I think there's other problems in this question, but i think that one is mostly ok and agree with the "you guys need to meet in the middle" sort of answers. And i say this as a former moderate slob who moved in with their very clean partner and had to change.
He might need to relax a little, but he's coming at this from the side that is an improvement, and this kind of thing REALLY isn't that much work when it's split between two people, and is something you do some minor work on every day.
posted by emptythought at 1:44 PM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think i might be the only person who kind of gets this statement, which has been massively dumped on?
If you hire a cleaner, that doesn't solve the shoes-on-the-stairs type problem. If they come and clean once a week, there will likely be lots of mess by the time they come back.
It's a lead-a-horse-to-water type thing. Keeping a clean place isn't something you buy, or deal with a couple times a month, it's a process and you have to work at it a little every day. It works infinitely better as a maintenance activity with small steps here and there than a big once a week or less project where everything slowly slides down hill between Big Cleaning Events.
This really is a habbit that you need to break if you want to change the state of your place. Having someone else do it won't work because you'll keep contributing to the mess without picking it up.
I think there's other problems in this question, but i think that one is mostly ok and agree with the "you guys need to meet in the middle" sort of answers. And i say this as a former moderate slob who moved in with their very clean partner and had to change.
He might need to relax a little, but he's coming at this from the side that is an improvement, and this kind of thing REALLY isn't that much work when it's split between two people, and is something you do some minor work on every day.
posted by emptythought at 1:44 PM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I am reading into this question and the followup that you both work and he works from home. So why is the housework entirely your problem in the first place?
Why is there not some effort at a division of labor, especially given his requirements? Frankly it sounds like he is gaslighting you. You sound in the "normal" range and he sounds . . . well, like someone who flips out when things are not exactly the way he likes.
I also do not understand the problem with hiring help. I mean, I know what you said, but, yeah, this is not about fairness. I agree it is about control and score-keeping and some other things very toxic to a relationship.
In addition to this, my sense is that whatever you do housewise, it will not be enough for him.
What if you postpone his move-in and see what happens? Will moving be of great financial benefit to him?
Personally I would not allow him to move into MY house and dictate all this sh*t. And if I did I'd be writing up a lease rather than putting him on the title.
I had a friend whose PREVIOUSLY lovely charming boyfriend acted like this when he moved into her paid-for house. In the end she came near having to instigate eviction proceedings with the county sheriff when his compulsive behaviors began to extend to greater matters than neatness. As soon as he got a foothold in the house, EVERYTHING was on his terms.
Just please think of yourself, protect yourself legally in every way, and also maybe reevaluate how "wonderful" he is. This is the real person you're dealing with now, or part of him. That part is not going away.
I wish you tremendous luck.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:17 PM on August 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
Why is there not some effort at a division of labor, especially given his requirements? Frankly it sounds like he is gaslighting you. You sound in the "normal" range and he sounds . . . well, like someone who flips out when things are not exactly the way he likes.
I also do not understand the problem with hiring help. I mean, I know what you said, but, yeah, this is not about fairness. I agree it is about control and score-keeping and some other things very toxic to a relationship.
In addition to this, my sense is that whatever you do housewise, it will not be enough for him.
What if you postpone his move-in and see what happens? Will moving be of great financial benefit to him?
Personally I would not allow him to move into MY house and dictate all this sh*t. And if I did I'd be writing up a lease rather than putting him on the title.
I had a friend whose PREVIOUSLY lovely charming boyfriend acted like this when he moved into her paid-for house. In the end she came near having to instigate eviction proceedings with the county sheriff when his compulsive behaviors began to extend to greater matters than neatness. As soon as he got a foothold in the house, EVERYTHING was on his terms.
Just please think of yourself, protect yourself legally in every way, and also maybe reevaluate how "wonderful" he is. This is the real person you're dealing with now, or part of him. That part is not going away.
I wish you tremendous luck.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:17 PM on August 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
Would you two possibly have children someday?
Living in a museum isn't very good for a family, and having a parent who is abusive about toys simply being OUT because they've been played with isn't good for kids. There's a normal level of clutter and "in use" appearance for a home that's actually being lived in, and it doesn't sound like he'd be willing to tolerate that.
And if you think the fights NOW are bad, just wait until he starts picking at the kids for being kids...
posted by stormyteal at 6:13 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Living in a museum isn't very good for a family, and having a parent who is abusive about toys simply being OUT because they've been played with isn't good for kids. There's a normal level of clutter and "in use" appearance for a home that's actually being lived in, and it doesn't sound like he'd be willing to tolerate that.
And if you think the fights NOW are bad, just wait until he starts picking at the kids for being kids...
posted by stormyteal at 6:13 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh my god. He sounds like a "my way or the highway" person on this one with no give. He'll make your life hell if you live together.
Might I recommend either living next door to each other or doing what Robert and Joan Parker did and live on separate floors in the same house? Because seriously, I think that's the only way to handle it with someone so rigid on the topic who will give not a tiny inch.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:34 PM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Might I recommend either living next door to each other or doing what Robert and Joan Parker did and live on separate floors in the same house? Because seriously, I think that's the only way to handle it with someone so rigid on the topic who will give not a tiny inch.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:34 PM on August 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I like to tidy things up right when they start to get messy, because I don't have time in my life to do a lot of deep cleaning. I had roommates who'd leave stuff and dishes around for a long time, then clean it up all at once. Stewing in their mess in the meantime drove me crazy.
So I suggested we hire a cleaner for our flat. They didn't want to - they preferred taking the time to do an occasional deep clean themselves, and saving the money. They were uncomfortable with the idea of paying someone to clean for them. I said: "OK, how about I pay for a cleaner to come 2x a month, so I don't have to bother, and then on off-weeks you're responsible for doing a deep clean of the house? And if it doesn't work out for some reason you can chip in on bringing a cleaner more regularly."
It was a good compromise that worked out pretty well. Speaking as a person who hates sharing space with someone who is messy, I think your BF is being very unreasonable. It shouldn't be about whose way is right, it should be about accepting a compromise that will make everyone happy and avoid conflict.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:42 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
So I suggested we hire a cleaner for our flat. They didn't want to - they preferred taking the time to do an occasional deep clean themselves, and saving the money. They were uncomfortable with the idea of paying someone to clean for them. I said: "OK, how about I pay for a cleaner to come 2x a month, so I don't have to bother, and then on off-weeks you're responsible for doing a deep clean of the house? And if it doesn't work out for some reason you can chip in on bringing a cleaner more regularly."
It was a good compromise that worked out pretty well. Speaking as a person who hates sharing space with someone who is messy, I think your BF is being very unreasonable. It shouldn't be about whose way is right, it should be about accepting a compromise that will make everyone happy and avoid conflict.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:42 AM on August 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, this response has not been what I expected at all!
I've been told off my whole life for being messy, and it never even occurred to me that messiness might not be inherently worse than being tidy- what a concept! I thought everyone was going to tell me I was gross! Which I kind of am- I'm worried I might have downplayed it based on some of the (very validating I must say) comments here.
I didn't really think my boyfriend's demands were unreasonable, I was more frustrated by the arguments, and how he kept bringing up the financial stuff- and I still don't think it's unreasonable for him to want to be comfortable at home- but I am really surprised to see how many people think he is being unreasonable. Particularly self confessed neatniks!
So, I have engaged a cleaner to come in for two hours a week starting from September. Thanks to everyone who helped me see the craziness of not doing that already. I think I understand where he was coming from- a cleaner can’t clean if it’s messy- but I think it will help, and I want to take some control of the space back!
We had a huge fight again this morning because I had left some post packaging on a side table after he helped me clean up on Sunday, and a workman who had been at my house had left my spare key holder thing on the sideboard yesterday. Before I read all your comments I would have apologised abjectly, or just rolled my eyes and sulked, but instead I let him know that never having anything on any surfaces wasn't really a reasonable expectation. I also told him that his standards were preferences, not the correct way- and he did look at me like I was crazy, but actually I think he was starting to come round to the idea that he might have to compromise too.
Thanks everyone for giving me the language to talk about this, and for giving me a better understanding of why this was getting to me so much.
I’m going to mark some answers that made me laugh, reconsider, or gave me practical advice I plan to use, but thank you to everyone for taking the time to write such thoughtful, insightful responses- what a world this is where strangers on the internet give you the benefit of their wisdom and experience for free!
posted by Dwardles at 9:16 AM on August 5, 2015 [37 favorites]
I've been told off my whole life for being messy, and it never even occurred to me that messiness might not be inherently worse than being tidy- what a concept! I thought everyone was going to tell me I was gross! Which I kind of am- I'm worried I might have downplayed it based on some of the (very validating I must say) comments here.
I didn't really think my boyfriend's demands were unreasonable, I was more frustrated by the arguments, and how he kept bringing up the financial stuff- and I still don't think it's unreasonable for him to want to be comfortable at home- but I am really surprised to see how many people think he is being unreasonable. Particularly self confessed neatniks!
So, I have engaged a cleaner to come in for two hours a week starting from September. Thanks to everyone who helped me see the craziness of not doing that already. I think I understand where he was coming from- a cleaner can’t clean if it’s messy- but I think it will help, and I want to take some control of the space back!
We had a huge fight again this morning because I had left some post packaging on a side table after he helped me clean up on Sunday, and a workman who had been at my house had left my spare key holder thing on the sideboard yesterday. Before I read all your comments I would have apologised abjectly, or just rolled my eyes and sulked, but instead I let him know that never having anything on any surfaces wasn't really a reasonable expectation. I also told him that his standards were preferences, not the correct way- and he did look at me like I was crazy, but actually I think he was starting to come round to the idea that he might have to compromise too.
Thanks everyone for giving me the language to talk about this, and for giving me a better understanding of why this was getting to me so much.
I’m going to mark some answers that made me laugh, reconsider, or gave me practical advice I plan to use, but thank you to everyone for taking the time to write such thoughtful, insightful responses- what a world this is where strangers on the internet give you the benefit of their wisdom and experience for free!
posted by Dwardles at 9:16 AM on August 5, 2015 [37 favorites]
Something that ought to be some 101 shit but often doesn't seem to be with men who aren't accustomed to doing emotional labor: you don't have to share just because you have a feel, nor are you entitled to a life completely free of discomfort or pain (carefully buffered by whatever woman is closest). The world does not breathlessly await your judgement from moment to moment, you can keep a few to yourself.
He is welcome to be bothered, but he is still obligated to interact with you like an adult.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:51 AM on August 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
He is welcome to be bothered, but he is still obligated to interact with you like an adult.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:51 AM on August 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
Your house, your rules, your cleaning standards. Period, end of story. If it's not your house, STFU.
He sounds like way more trouble than he's worth. Guys who aren't so obsessive about housekeeping standards are abundant in this world. I suggest you find one who is a better natural fit for you personally, and who can be a true financial partner for you.
posted by hush at 11:07 AM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
He sounds like way more trouble than he's worth. Guys who aren't so obsessive about housekeeping standards are abundant in this world. I suggest you find one who is a better natural fit for you personally, and who can be a true financial partner for you.
posted by hush at 11:07 AM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
Dwardles, your post has been linked and quoted by The Hairpin in a short list of examples cited as proof of "The First Law of Relationships in the Age of the Internet".
posted by bitteschoen at 1:34 PM on August 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by bitteschoen at 1:34 PM on August 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
Other's have covered all the possible sides of the interpersonal relationship stuff going on here, I just wanted to say that the cleaner may actually help you be more tidy. I got better at cleaning up after myself after we hired a cleaner. Before the cleaner my thought process was (probably) more along the lines of "I don't want to wipe the splatters out of the microwave now, and I'm going to have to clean it up later anyway, so...". But now it's "I don't want to wipe the splatters out of the microwave now, but if I leave it to dry out it's going to make her life more difficult and I don't want that so I'll just wipe it up real quick."
Apparently I'm nicer to other people than my future self!
posted by pennypiper at 11:42 AM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Apparently I'm nicer to other people than my future self!
posted by pennypiper at 11:42 AM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
BTW, yes, your boyfriend completely has to be less obsessive and learn compromise. Really really.
Assuming that's even possible, here are some ideas on what to look at in terms of ways to compromise, that aren't "never have a thing out of place".
So, things sometimes aren't really 'things', so much as, placeholders to mark territory?
Like, in months of travelling, I would roll into a bland little bedroom, and throw my decorative sheet on the bed, and hang some fairy lights up. BAM! Instead of being a completely neutral space, it was now my space. Even if I'd only been in there for a few minutes, it would have felt like 'Elysum's Room' even if I swapped rooms with someone else. People usually need a sense of their own space, their own territory.
Your boyfriend sounds very territorial. I mean, the office chair thing? And I'm suspecting, therefore, like the thought of moving into a space which is ENTIRELY your territory is wigging him right out. So, it sounds like he's trying to push for kind of, neutral, clean, depersonalised space. Anything with your stuff on it is 'yours'.
Thing is, this probably won't make him entirely happy either. He might be happier if he has some space in the house which is entirely his, and distinctively decorated by him, so he can view the rest of the house as 'shared space' rather than your territory which is encroaching on him.
Absolutely push hard on what his idea of shared space is, but also check in about what things drive him most nuts. Are things on the counter actually so bad, or do things in places where he would sit REALLY bug him the most?
I mean, it's sounding like places he sits might be a big one. Was stuff on the counters really wigging him out, or was he just taking it as some symbolic gesture?
I would collaboratively pick some places and things that can be his spaces, but in the rest of the house he'll have to suck it up and deal.
(Ok, so I still wouldn't live with him, because the two points you mentioned in no way justify a 'huge fight', but if he ever wants to live with anyone, ever, he is going to have to think harder about what things he really needs to be his territory - and it can't be more than a small proportion of shared spaces - and how he can learn to cope with that).
posted by Elysum at 11:58 AM on August 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Assuming that's even possible, here are some ideas on what to look at in terms of ways to compromise, that aren't "never have a thing out of place".
So, things sometimes aren't really 'things', so much as, placeholders to mark territory?
Like, in months of travelling, I would roll into a bland little bedroom, and throw my decorative sheet on the bed, and hang some fairy lights up. BAM! Instead of being a completely neutral space, it was now my space. Even if I'd only been in there for a few minutes, it would have felt like 'Elysum's Room' even if I swapped rooms with someone else. People usually need a sense of their own space, their own territory.
Your boyfriend sounds very territorial. I mean, the office chair thing? And I'm suspecting, therefore, like the thought of moving into a space which is ENTIRELY your territory is wigging him right out. So, it sounds like he's trying to push for kind of, neutral, clean, depersonalised space. Anything with your stuff on it is 'yours'.
Thing is, this probably won't make him entirely happy either. He might be happier if he has some space in the house which is entirely his, and distinctively decorated by him, so he can view the rest of the house as 'shared space' rather than your territory which is encroaching on him.
Absolutely push hard on what his idea of shared space is, but also check in about what things drive him most nuts. Are things on the counter actually so bad, or do things in places where he would sit REALLY bug him the most?
I mean, it's sounding like places he sits might be a big one. Was stuff on the counters really wigging him out, or was he just taking it as some symbolic gesture?
I would collaboratively pick some places and things that can be his spaces, but in the rest of the house he'll have to suck it up and deal.
(Ok, so I still wouldn't live with him, because the two points you mentioned in no way justify a 'huge fight', but if he ever wants to live with anyone, ever, he is going to have to think harder about what things he really needs to be his territory - and it can't be more than a small proportion of shared spaces - and how he can learn to cope with that).
posted by Elysum at 11:58 AM on August 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
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The conventional wisdom that opposites attract? Not so. In fact the more similar the easier.
It may be extreme but I would let this go or at least separate for a while in which you can see how big of a relief it is to be in your home without stress.
posted by pando11 at 5:23 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]