Need informant from the human species to help me understand their ways
July 31, 2015 7:07 AM   Subscribe

What type of therapist, counselor, or other "mental health professional" would be best suited to help me understand my difficulties with sociality?

I would like to see a therapist—or some sort of person who will help me figure out some personal shit. But I don't know how to pick the right one for my needs.

I have some pretty specific goals. Lately, I've come to realize how much of my life has been defined (and limited) by one simple fact: I just don't understand human sociality. (I've repeatedly considered, and rejected, the possibility that I have Asperger's. Most of the social symptoms describe me to a T, but none of the rest fits.) At least to start, I'm simply interested in better understanding that aspect of myself and my life.

So here I am, poring over my local providers in my insurer's directory (I'm fortunate to have good mental health coverage through my employer). There are a lot. Like, over 100.

The problem is: I've been to therapy half a dozen times before. It was deeply, profoundly useless every time. (I saw those therapists for depression, which I've since gotten under control. I'm now interested in exploring different issues, as outlined above.)

And as I research the many providers available to me, I'm kinda despairing that all of them seem just like the useless therapists I've seen in the past: sort of a defeated macramé-hippie vibe to the whole thing, with mauve walls and the tissue box on the side table, and take-home workbooks full of self-esteem exercises or whatever. And, at the same time, this medicalized approach that wants to put me in neat little diagnostic boxes (whether I actually fit in those boxes or not), as if my struggles to make sense of life are analogous to emphysema or an overactive thyroid.

I'm not interested in that. It does not satisfy my needs. What I need is a smart person to whom I can say "dude, what the fuck is the deal with X; I just don't get it". And then they'll say "well, the deal with X is this...". And then I'll say, "right, but what about Y and Z, that shit just does not add up". And then they'll explain that, and so on and so forth, and I'll gradually start to understand shit that I currently do not understand.

(I'm not trying to learn social skills, exactly. More like, I'm trying to understand people, and why negotiating the world of people has to be such a fun-house maze. Maybe understanding that is a social skill? I dunno. Basically I feel like there are some fundamental things about sociality and the purpose of / reasoning behind social norms that I'm just not getting, and I would like to have an informant who can help me identify and understand whatever it is that I'm missing.)

To put it a bit differently, I'm not looking for someone to help me feel better. I'm looking for someone to answer questions for me—someone who can explain some things about the human world to me like I'm five.

Is there a type of professional, or a particular modality, that does something like that? Should I perhaps be looking somewhere other than therapy? In short, who can help me with this undertaking?

Thanks for reading.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (27 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
 
Perhaps you are not yet ready for therapy. It seems you need to get the big picture down first before you can even see the point, which right now feels irrelevant and unhelpful and does not apply to you.

How about some long, deep conversations with some Sociologists, Anthropologist, humanist Philosophers?
posted by enlivener at 7:19 AM on July 31, 2015


Not sure about therapists, but your specific questions sound like the sort of things that a visitor from a different culture might ask. What do you call the person who helps a newcomer to this country understand all of our weird customs and ways? Immigration counsellor? Resettlement coordinator? They might not be willing to work with you, but there's probably a whole literature of guidebooks and stuff that could point you in the right direction.
posted by Mogur at 7:21 AM on July 31, 2015


Some kind of coach, whether an executive coach or a life coach, might be appropriate. Some of the stuff you want help with is analogous to situations people might encounter and need help to deal with in business, even if you don't specifically want this as a means to advance any specific career.

Positives: a lot of them have considerable understanding of psychology and human interaction, their job is to make you a more effective human, they're less likely to be limited by any specific therapeutic modality or contract (e.g. giving advice or direct input is often verboten for therapists, whereas a coach might be more comfortable giving you direct suggestions/parsing situations for you without worrying they're undermining the process).

Negatives: regulation & education is not so much a thing. Nearly anyone can call themselves a coach; there are a ton of qualifications available and it's hard to tell what any of them have entailed and whether they're actually meaningful. You might need to do more research of your own to find a good fit/someone whom you think could be genuinely helpful.
posted by terretu at 7:23 AM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


(I've repeatedly considered, and rejected, the possibility that I have Asperger's. Most of the social symptoms describe me to a T, but none of the rest fits.)

So, if the one Asperger's like trait is that you have is that you take statements made by other people literally, then the methods and worksheets and mantras that aim to help with this for people who fit the diagnosis could also be helpful to you, even if you don't fit the diagnosis. (Where "trait that you have" is variable, and you can swap in the one that applies.)

Coming at this from another angle, it's hard to understand people if you spent a lot of time growing up with people who are dishonest or even mistaken about their own emotions.
posted by puddledork at 7:30 AM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


If you are near a university, I strongly recommend taking some psychology classes. Intro, then maybe social psychology, and, if offered, personality psychology. If you have time/money left, personality psychology.

Yes, you could just read books, but if you find the right professor/teacher, it will be incredibly fulfilling. If you find a specific area that speaks to your interests, you can find additional reading through recommendations of the professor or reading more work by researchers that interest you.

You might even meet someone interesting in class with whom you can discuss things.
posted by amtho at 7:32 AM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


One, my aunt works with developmentally disabled adults. Sometimes, she assists functional grown men with Asperger's by helping them, if necessary, craft huge behavioral flowcharts for themselves so they know things like, "When the secretary at the office turns her back on you and walks away rapidly, it means she does not want you to follow her and pester her about the copy machine." Such people often just don't get social clues and need rules to follow instead. So yes, there are people who specialize in this sort of thing and yes, they're smart. I don't know how you'd get to one without a diagnosis, beyond just plain asking for one.

Two, 'sociality' means "the degree to which individuals in an animal population tend to associate in social groups and form cooperative societies." So I'm not sure you're using the word correctly. Most of the time when we see animals cooperating, the reasons why are generally apparent.

Three, you may not be able to intellectually understand the whys of human behavior, because much -- if not nearly all -- of human decision-making is done emotionally, which is non-rational, which means if you can't feel empathy and compassion for the individuals you're considering, their behavior will nearly always look random. Why do nice girls like bad boys? Why do good guys finish last? Why do couples bicker? Why do people self-sabotage? While there are answers to these questions, you're going to be forever disappointed if you're hoping they make sense.

Four, you said, "I feel like there are some fundamental things about sociality and the purpose of/reasoning behind social norms that I'm just not getting," and it makes me think you might enjoy Grooming, Gossip and the Evolution of Language by Robin Dunbar, a prominent primatologist. It's an engaging read and offers a very plausible explanation for why human beings seem to talk about absolutely nothing all the time.
posted by goblinbox at 7:55 AM on July 31, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm going to guess that when you saw the useless therapists, you never confronted them. If you don't understand sociality, you probably assume that others do and to confront them is socially incorrect. Indeed, that kind of going along with things is one aspect of sociality but in a therapy context, it means you collude with their uselessness. By "confront," I don't only mean intellectually. I mean you have to say how it makes you feel. E.g. angry, alone, hopeless.

Sociality is driven not only by rules but by emotions and both are usually "implicit" and not spoke of. This means that social beings mostly don't figure out how to navigate encounters with others but jump in and swim. For this reason, I would suggest you try group therapy in which encounters can be analyzed as they proceed--taken apart to see how and why they occurred as they did.

On preview, I noticed goblinbox above mentioned empathy. Empathy is often thought of as not having component parts but in practice is based on social knowledge. To empathize with someone requires an understanding of their social situation (and often what is taken as lack of empathy is really lack of social understanding. which is why those with Asperger's are mistakenly seen as lacking the capacity for empathy when they merely don't understand the social context.)
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:08 AM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I wonder if you might not want to approach this from a slightly different angle. Above all else, what comes through your post is basically a blinding, seething rage. And I am not judging--if I felt incapable of comprehending the rest of my species, I too am sure I would eventually become furious.

However. You cannot reach empathy, which as goblinbox notes, is the critical factor in understanding human behavior, through a veil of rage. So my suggestion would be:

-find a therapist or counselor who specializes in anger management.
-start keeping a journal in which you track events or situations that make you angry, puzzled, or defeated-feeling, which you can discuss with said therapist/counselor
-take up some kind of sport or exercise that helps you blow off steam

Just a thought.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:13 AM on July 31, 2015 [6 favorites]


I just don't understand human sociality.

Can you be more specific? What do you see that doesn't make sense?

There are plenty of books (of varying quality) on all sorts of confusing and weird but common human behaviors.
posted by sninctown at 8:30 AM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


(I'm not trying to learn social skills, exactly. More like, I'm trying to understand people, and why negotiating the world of people has to be such a fun-house maze. Maybe understanding that is a social skill? I dunno. Basically I feel like there are some fundamental things about sociality and the purpose of / reasoning behind social norms that I'm just not getting, and I would like to have an informant who can help me identify and understand whatever it is that I'm missing.)

I think at least part of what you're after is social skills training, if you want to learn to read social situations and interact with people in what are considered appropriate ways. I've read studies in which psychology grad students have served as mentors to young kids in schools to give them social skills training (and e.g. direct feedback about peer reactions in the moment). I haven't heard about this existing for adults (not even sure it's widely done for kids :/), but it might - maybe an occupational therapist with significant training in interpersonal psychology? I've seen some of them advertise private services like this, which amount to social skills training. They tend to use scaled, goal-based methods more rigorously than most therapists. I've heard about a few university-based group training sessions like that, probably also rare but you might get lucky.

I think some kind of more general group for people on the spectrum might be helpful, too, to help you process feelings about the above with others who may have also experienced them, and can relate.

2nd taking a couple of psychology classes for a sense of some of the rules of "the game" as they're currently understood by psychologists.

Reading literature can do the same. (I remember reading some study or other found that certain works of fiction offered more accurate or thorough sociological information than traditional quantitative sociological studies. Some films and tv probably do just as well.) But if things aren't immediately clear from the text, a book club or something like that might help. Admittedly, that is kind of long-game, though, if you want immediate help with interacting with people in your life.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2015


I'm going to guess that when you saw the useless therapists, you never confronted them.

Sadly, a lot of therapists are kind of crap. I don't think you need to feel obliged to correct their crapness given that you are the one struggling, here, OP. I think your instinct to keep looking for workable solutions and providers is a good and self- and pocket-protective one.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:55 AM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Just tell a therapist that this is what you want. Call a few, and choose the one who responds best to your request. Therapists are just people, people who have trained to be sensitive to people going through very hard things. There are a variety. They (in theory at least) tailor their approach to what you want. My therapist would be awesome at explaining people to you. Just tell them what you want and pick one who seems able to do this.
posted by salvia at 9:02 AM on July 31, 2015


You might get more mileage out of looking at the credentials of the person you choose. I'd guess you'd be a better fit with someone who has PhD training in psychology but also sociology, religion, or philosophy. It seems you are looking for someone who can give you a meta view of personal interactions and speak to the more abstract issues of life. Y
posted by megancita at 9:02 AM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sorry, I should make explicit what I thought and for some reason didn't say (I have my own communicative issues). You said you wanted help working out "why negotiating the world of people has to be such a fun-house maze", and then also talked about not understanding norms.

I think the kind of help you could benefit from depends on how literally you mean the above. If the world of people is indeed a fun-house maze to you, more confusing to you than it might be to others, as suggested by the nature of most AskMe questions, for example, and you've experienced significant personal and professional costs as a result, I think it's at least possible you are not grokking pragmatics and interpersonal norms in ways that might be similar to people who would fit a diagnosis somewhere on the spectrum. If OTOH you can function in the social world relatively unproblematically but are merely critical of norms that seem absurd to you on an aesthetic or philosophical level, that could just be a clash of values.

If you're not experiencing interpersonal difficulties, I agree, a big-picture person (like maybe an existential therapist) might be helpful.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:24 AM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


It may be helpful to read about Schizoid Personality Disorder and, if any of that description seems to fit, seek out therapists with experience working with people with it, or maybe with personality disorders in general.
posted by jaguar at 9:54 AM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Like salvia, I've got a therapist who in her practice chooses to be a lot more willing to offer opinions, insight and perspective than others. I can ask her the very sort of questions you posed and get straight answers. She shows her intelligence and experience directly, isn't fluffy, and all of this makes me feel I'm working with someone who I fiercely respect.

It's quite often the case that testing therapists (one phone call/trial session at a time) is an activity high on the needing social skills scale, but for you with your specific goals, that's not how it has to be at all, thank god. Be direct, be yourself without compromise (be polite obviously but you don't have to placate, impress, or worry about making yourself "likeable") and tell them exactly this, and go with who gets you. You don't have to hire someone who wants to uncover your deeper issues, analyse your personality or life history, whatever. You also don't have to hire anyone whose therapeutic manner makes you not trust what they say (this is what fluffiness does for me). Put those therapists by the wayside and you keep open the opportunity to meet one who can give you exactly what you need. You don't have to put up with any crap.

I disagree with suggestions to manage your anger first, because it sounds like what you need to start this change off is answers. Once you start to get a collection of social answers you can trust, that's when you're probably first going to feel safe enough and enough like you're not wasting your time that you can start to talk about broader things - how having to be social affects you, what you think philosophically about being a human, what you think about how other people seem to work and what they seem to believe and where that differs from your own experience.

It might be that what you need to do is find one straight talker to start with, then another one who's better at long term supportive work to switch to when you're ready to. This would be tricky with regards to finding two professionals whose views on social nature are compatible, but I think it's very possible. Same process to hire the second - be upfront about what you want, who you are, what you're learning or have learnt and how you think, and only settle with someone who's right for you and who gets it.

I'm giving this advice to you specifically - other reasons for wanting therapy are ones which require a different approach. I relate to your situation a lot, and have wasted too much time getting the wrong help. I'm happy now and I have the right resources for me.
posted by lokta at 10:05 AM on July 31, 2015


I think I possibly get it? You dislike the vague answers that therapists fire back at you or turn back on yourself, when really, you want a simple answer to something you feel is a simple question. Eg; 'I had to meet a friend for lunch, but I took the wrong turn and got lost for 20 minutes. When I arrived, I asked my friend if I was late. She said, 'No. It's fine.' I said, 'Ok,' and we had lunch. However during lunch, my friend was curt and did not talk much. My friend left earlier than she usually does. Was she mad? Why? So why do people say 'it's fine,' when they really mean 'it's not fine.'?"

Apologies if that's not a great example or if I'm completely off the mark. It might be more 'social skills' than you wanted. It's the only example I could think of. If it is like that, though, then I suppose the therapists you've seen just don't seem to realize you just don't 'get' certain social norms, because these things are implicit. And understanding them is also. And sometimes people cannot fathom that other people don't know them and understand them already. Therefore, they don't take your question literally, 'Why is X?' -- And instead make it about other things, 'How did you feel when your friend left early?' and stuff. Moroever, they might just not know the answer. People say and do things for a myriad of reasons dependent on the person itself. Saying 'it's fine' could be for a lot of reasons. For example, women are often socialized not to voice their complaints and be docile and understanding. It may manifest as saying they're fine, when really, they're sad/mad/disappointed. But the thing is, social norms and conventions are varied, and people are too. Because there's no real black and white with these things. Why do you think there's so many 'understanding people/women/men!!' books. Because nobody has really cracked it. And when they get close, social conventions tend to change once again.

This might seem silly, but, can't you just ask your questions here on Mefi? Would the questions be too chat-filter-y for that? The answers will probably be rather varied, but I'm sure you'd find them beneficial. If they are too chatty, perhaps you could ask in the Mefi chat room? My experience is that Mefi folks are in general pretty wise and on the whole intelligent.

Failing that, even though you don't have Aspergers, perhaps a counselor or therapist with experience dealing with people who do, might help. My reasoning is that they have probably already been asked those kind of questions repeatedly, and will have experience in answering them. Also, they might be less likely to be the mauve-wall-tissue-box types that you want to avoid.

Lastly, I think a science-based book about behavior may be useful to you. I don't have any recommendations, but I remember reading a book called Decoding Love that broke down attraction into the science side and psychology of it, which was very interesting. I'm not sure if there's general behavior version of something like it, but if so, I think that breaking down actions into science would help you wrap your head around it, too.

I hope that helped somewhat.
posted by Dimes at 10:25 AM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


1. Look for a psychologist who does counseling, rather than a therapist. I think they will have the more scientific, evidence-based analysis of human behavior that you are craving.

2. If you think that you have *some* of the *social* traits similar to Asperger's syndrome, perhaps find one who specialized in treating people with Asperger's. You can make it clear that you don't identify or want to be diagnosed as such; they will still have tools and techniques that will be helpful for that portion of the set of symptoms/traits. It's like if I wanted to learn to ice skate but didn't want to be a Competitive Figure Skater; a professional Figure Skating Coach can still teach me how to skate.
posted by amaire at 10:55 AM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think part of the difficulty is that you are looking for simple rational answers to explain behavior that is based on a complex and frequently irrational structure (human cognition, and society/culture which is the aggregate of that). Many people can give you answers for why an action was taken, but they will really just be opinions, or stories they make up which sound rational. In reality most behavior is heavily influenced by subconscious reactions and people's state of mood, arousal, and attention. People will often behave completely differently even to the same situation, depending on this background activity. Google the psychology of bias, and read some of Daniel Kahneman's studies, he is easy to understand and gives good insight to how people think.

In my experience you will have better luck looking for emergent properties, rather than simple rational rules. Class together similar behaviors or reactions to different stimuli or situations, and just observe trends from your life. This will be more useful than deciding on rules which will frequently not work. When regarding a complex or large scale thing, the more simple an explanation, the less accurate and applicable it will be.

Also, just post your questions to Askme, and see what kind of rules people give you.
posted by milnickel at 11:24 AM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


I would strongly recommend seeing a cognitive behavioral therapist, rather than a talk therapist. They will have the necessary (science-based) tools to explain behavior. They will also be able to gi ve you some skills to make interacting with problematic behavior less unpleasant.

When I see a question like this (or group behavior I don't understand), I'm reminded of some studies done on flocks of birds and schools of fish. It turns out that the complicated movement of the entire group is predicated only on maintaining a specific distance range from your nearest neighbors, and predators, or course. Large, seemingly fluid group dynamics often have relatively simple underpinnings, if you can only achieve the distance necessary to see them.


Good luck.
posted by builderofscience at 12:54 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


You're looking to pay someone for something that many people get from friends for free. Do you have any smart friends that you can go to for advice? I request advice about confusing social phenomena from friends all the time.
posted by Mr. Justice at 3:57 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Group therapy, when facilitated skillfully by a secure therapist, can be good for understanding aspects of "the fun-house maze," because there's often a mechanism for asking what just happened and having it spelled out. There can also be feedback on how you come across.

For this, you want a closed group where you commit to a number of sessions, rather than a drop-in group. Generally you have to meet with the coordinating therapist a few times to see if the group is a good fit for you. The skill of the therapist(s) and level of participants probably matter more than the specific approach.

Irvin Yalom's textbook The Theory and Practice of Group Psychotherapy is a surprisingly easy read, and might shed light on some questions you have about sociality in general. At least one of his novels describes a therapy group's interactions.
As a therapist, apparently the guy has a couple of specific, glaring flaws which would make any therapist an absolute non-starter for me. But his books are a good resource.
posted by wonton endangerment at 5:23 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Perhaps obvious, but read the MeFi human relations archives?
posted by quincunx at 5:30 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


It is not my experience that most social decisions are based on emotion. I would set that bar lower. One important thing to figure out is-what do you want? What are you not getting, that you need or want in human relations? Once you figure those two things out, get some trusted feedback as to whether these are feasible. If not likely, or so out of step with norms, find out why, or find it. My ex used to say, "In plumbing, if you can think of it; it exists."
posted by Oyéah at 7:57 PM on July 31, 2015


Someone who treats patients with autism/Aspergers should have the expertise and experience you're seeking. You would probably find books on social skills written for that audience helpful as well.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:29 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


In navigating your directory of providers, I think you can prepare an email similar to parts of your question here and send it to the office of prospective providers and let them choose you.

As for how to craft it...
- Keep your first paragraph about your specific goals.
- Drop everything that sounds insulting to the profession. If you want, you can re-word the parts that explain your history of therapy so you show what you have tried and why it was unsuccessful and show what you are not looking for, but lose the words "useless" and "hippie" , etc.
- Keep the paragraph about asking "dude, what is the deal with X" but then give some examples of the X's that you are thinking about.
posted by CathyG at 9:05 AM on August 1, 2015


A major part of our socialization is supposed to come from our parents, reinforcing acceptable behavior and trying to discourage anti-social behavior. Beyond that, we get most of our early socialization from other kids at school. I had a fairly eccentric mother, so I read two complete books of Miss Manners on manners and ettiquette. She claims that the purpose of ettiquette is to make other people comfortable. (Partially true, but their are also status displays.) She covers more than table manners, she addresses many cases of social interaction and chit-chat. And I think her books are indexed.

For me, the most unanswerable "why do people..." question of all time is "why do people ridicule other people for being different?" That's a thing that happens a lot and is traumatizing and confusing. It can be hard to understand in any way why being mean is gratifying. Some kind of reinforcing mechanism for conformity leading to species survival? Perhaps.
posted by puddledork at 8:57 AM on November 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


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