Can it really cost thousands of dollars to post an app in the app store?
July 28, 2015 9:00 AM Subscribe
My question, in a sentence, is this: given that my app works perfectly, what is a reasonable cost to pay someone else to place it or post it in the app store?
Here is the sequence of events:
1. Last year, a tech company built a really cool app for my company. They posted it in the app store. It works fine on the iphone and the ipad. (My definition of really cool is idiosyncratic, and -- like most apps -- it would probably be of interest to a relatively small number of people.)
2. I stupidly neglected to pay something like a $100 license extension fee. This means the app was removed from the app store 2 months or so ago.
3. I want to get the app reposted. I am unsophisticated enough to believe that this is a relatively mechanical process. However, the tech company wants several thousand bucks for "R&D on existing code; enhance the existing app, as per latest standard and make sure it is compatible with latest iphones. Do the basic enhancements in existing functionality to work properly with testing.
Upload app to Apple and navigate approval process" -- per their bid. They basically want about 10 times what I have unsophisticatedly assumed would be an appropriate price to upload the app.
4. I spoke to them, explaining that I am willing to gamble that the app will work on the latest version of IOS, etc.; it worked fine a few weeks ago when it was downloadable from the app store. They seem intent on requiring R&D, enhancements, etc., that I do not want and that are arguably an overcautious response to the situation, & they explained that the workload in uploading an entirely completed app would necessarily call for a couple of thousand dollars in labor.
5. Although I likely have a very uninformed perspective on this stuff, the app IMO is not especially groundbreaking or taxing to IOS, and I doubt that it is likely that recent updates have made it obsolete as is.
Given that they have the code and it worked fine in the past, is this really a $3000 job (their estimate)? They don't seem interested in my preferred alternative, which is just to charge me for their time in uploading the damn thing & navigate the approval process -- and gamble that it works just fine, and I find it hard to believe that just the uploading is that labor intensive. Then again, I don't have the technological expertise that they do, and maybe I am just deluded about the actual work of uploading an app. Although the alternative explanation -- that they don't particularly mind overcharging me -- has some force as well.
They've been very nice about it. I told them that I didn't think my partners would go for a self-created but unanticipated extra expense of this magnitude, and then I suggested I'd like to have access to the code. I then figured I'd ask the hive mind about it: In the middle of my writing this post, they emailed the code to me more or less immediately. So maybe they really believe that they're asking for a reasonable price. I am just utterly confused by this, given the huge divergence between my (admittedly ill-informed) estimate of what a reasonable price is and theirs.
Related question: how could I find someone else to give me a second estimate? Is this an elance-type job? Is it a Mefi jobs posting candidate? I think this is probably not something I could do myself.
Here is the sequence of events:
1. Last year, a tech company built a really cool app for my company. They posted it in the app store. It works fine on the iphone and the ipad. (My definition of really cool is idiosyncratic, and -- like most apps -- it would probably be of interest to a relatively small number of people.)
2. I stupidly neglected to pay something like a $100 license extension fee. This means the app was removed from the app store 2 months or so ago.
3. I want to get the app reposted. I am unsophisticated enough to believe that this is a relatively mechanical process. However, the tech company wants several thousand bucks for "R&D on existing code; enhance the existing app, as per latest standard and make sure it is compatible with latest iphones. Do the basic enhancements in existing functionality to work properly with testing.
Upload app to Apple and navigate approval process" -- per their bid. They basically want about 10 times what I have unsophisticatedly assumed would be an appropriate price to upload the app.
4. I spoke to them, explaining that I am willing to gamble that the app will work on the latest version of IOS, etc.; it worked fine a few weeks ago when it was downloadable from the app store. They seem intent on requiring R&D, enhancements, etc., that I do not want and that are arguably an overcautious response to the situation, & they explained that the workload in uploading an entirely completed app would necessarily call for a couple of thousand dollars in labor.
5. Although I likely have a very uninformed perspective on this stuff, the app IMO is not especially groundbreaking or taxing to IOS, and I doubt that it is likely that recent updates have made it obsolete as is.
Given that they have the code and it worked fine in the past, is this really a $3000 job (their estimate)? They don't seem interested in my preferred alternative, which is just to charge me for their time in uploading the damn thing & navigate the approval process -- and gamble that it works just fine, and I find it hard to believe that just the uploading is that labor intensive. Then again, I don't have the technological expertise that they do, and maybe I am just deluded about the actual work of uploading an app. Although the alternative explanation -- that they don't particularly mind overcharging me -- has some force as well.
They've been very nice about it. I told them that I didn't think my partners would go for a self-created but unanticipated extra expense of this magnitude, and then I suggested I'd like to have access to the code. I then figured I'd ask the hive mind about it: In the middle of my writing this post, they emailed the code to me more or less immediately. So maybe they really believe that they're asking for a reasonable price. I am just utterly confused by this, given the huge divergence between my (admittedly ill-informed) estimate of what a reasonable price is and theirs.
Related question: how could I find someone else to give me a second estimate? Is this an elance-type job? Is it a Mefi jobs posting candidate? I think this is probably not something I could do myself.
Oops, submitted too soon. My point with that last bit is that it's not surprising to me if a company doesn't want to take this job on. It can be a bit of a hassle to get through the approval process, etc., it's an interrupt in other projects, and unless you're getting paid a decent amount, it's probably more hassle than it's worth for a busy development company.
posted by primethyme at 9:17 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by primethyme at 9:17 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
What was your agreement with the tech company regarding ownership of the app? Do you have access to the source code or anything else necessary to upload the app yourself or have a third party do so? If not, does your agreement require the tech company to give you those materials? These are the questions you should be answering to figure out what your leverage is.
If you didn't have any agreement regarding ownership, they likely own the copyright in the app (subject to the materials your company provided), and your leverage is weak.
posted by benbenson at 9:29 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you didn't have any agreement regarding ownership, they likely own the copyright in the app (subject to the materials your company provided), and your leverage is weak.
posted by benbenson at 9:29 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Unwarranted though they may have legitimate gripes with the code. I'd find a local cocoaheads group and/or pay a college student a fair hourly to upload it.
posted by michaelh at 9:35 AM on July 28, 2015
posted by michaelh at 9:35 AM on July 28, 2015
Response by poster: They gave me the source code. It works fine, or at least worked fine a few months ago. I guess I will be visiting elance.
posted by Mr. Justice at 9:36 AM on July 28, 2015
posted by Mr. Justice at 9:36 AM on July 28, 2015
Does it need to be in the app store? Or do you just want to distribute to a handful of devices?
Sideloading may be an option. Although I'm not an iOS dev, so don't know how complicated/annoying this is.
posted by stobor at 9:47 AM on July 28, 2015
Sideloading may be an option. Although I'm not an iOS dev, so don't know how complicated/annoying this is.
posted by stobor at 9:47 AM on July 28, 2015
The unfortunate fact is that while you may be a perfectly reasonable client with good boundaries and reasonable expectations, many clients are not reasonable. So the $3k price tag is the price of the company taking on the risk of things going wrong - you can't know who is a reasonable client until things go pear-shaped, so every contract is priced as if the client might be unreasonable (unless the client has a proven track record, and even then it's risky to assume that past behavior predicts future behavior). There are several things that could go wrong from the perspective of the company:
1) App is re-submitted and rejected, Apple wants some changes. At this point they would have to come back to you and ask for money to make those changes. Some unreasonable clients would balk and say "you promised to get it on the app store!" even though all the promised was to *try* to get it on the app store. If they get the money up front, then there's no awkward confrontation, they just fix the app, resubmit, and everyone is happy.
2) App actually has broken in the last iOS update. Now they have to ask you for money to fix it. See #1.
3) The app works fine when uploaded, but in 6 months an iOS update breaks it. Even though the company has not promised to keep the app updated, many clients feel entitled to support that they did not pay for and will be displeased when the app breaks and the company asks for money to fix it. If they collect the money up front, then the company can provide that support without asking for more money.
In each of these scenarios, the company's reputation may take a hit as well. They could be seen as nickel-and-diming their customers. They could be seen as refusing to support code that they wrote. So if they upload the app without collecting money for fixes/support/etc, there are risks to them and to their client. These risks are mitigated by having standards: you pay a up front to avoid these issues down the road, or else the company doesn't take you on.
It's a shame that the difference between keeping the app posted ($100) and getting it re-posted ($3,000) is so large. But now that the app is gone from the app store, the relationship has changed and now you're establishing a new contract instead of renewing an old one.
posted by Tehhund at 9:55 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
1) App is re-submitted and rejected, Apple wants some changes. At this point they would have to come back to you and ask for money to make those changes. Some unreasonable clients would balk and say "you promised to get it on the app store!" even though all the promised was to *try* to get it on the app store. If they get the money up front, then there's no awkward confrontation, they just fix the app, resubmit, and everyone is happy.
2) App actually has broken in the last iOS update. Now they have to ask you for money to fix it. See #1.
3) The app works fine when uploaded, but in 6 months an iOS update breaks it. Even though the company has not promised to keep the app updated, many clients feel entitled to support that they did not pay for and will be displeased when the app breaks and the company asks for money to fix it. If they collect the money up front, then the company can provide that support without asking for more money.
In each of these scenarios, the company's reputation may take a hit as well. They could be seen as nickel-and-diming their customers. They could be seen as refusing to support code that they wrote. So if they upload the app without collecting money for fixes/support/etc, there are risks to them and to their client. These risks are mitigated by having standards: you pay a up front to avoid these issues down the road, or else the company doesn't take you on.
It's a shame that the difference between keeping the app posted ($100) and getting it re-posted ($3,000) is so large. But now that the app is gone from the app store, the relationship has changed and now you're establishing a new contract instead of renewing an old one.
posted by Tehhund at 9:55 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I will try to avoid the temptation to threadsit -- but this is a company that I have had a long and productive relationship with & worked on several different projects with. Maybe I've been an unreasonable lout when dealing with them, but I don't think so. The bid is for uploading, not uploading plus future maintenance; & not uploading with guaranteed acceptance and success.
posted by Mr. Justice at 10:27 AM on July 28, 2015
posted by Mr. Justice at 10:27 AM on July 28, 2015
The requirements for posting the app to Apple's App Store have more than likely changed in some manner with regards to how your app specifically was built - if this has to be uploaded as a new app, which it probably does, you have to meet the new requirements, and your app may not. For example, see this, which states that your app has to support iOS 8 and support the 64-bit devices as of February 1, 2015, to be accepted into the App Store. If your app was completed a year ago, it more than likely doesn't fit into those roles - iOS 8 itself came out in September 2014, for instance, so it really might not truly support iOS 8 - and some potentially non-trivial work may need to be done to make it meet that requirement. At the very least, if your developer account expired and you have to sign up for a new one, the app will need to be rebuilt and tested using the current version of Xcode so your app is signed correctly, and even that simple process alone could result in a bunch of work that needs to be done. A lot of things have changed over the past year so there may be bits and pieces there that won't fly with a newer version of the dev tools. So, in essence, it's not just a "here's the IPA, go punt it up there" type thing, especially since your account's expired.
posted by mrg at 10:57 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by mrg at 10:57 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
The app was allowed to lapse, which means it probably has to be submitted as new (or at least the developers assume it will), which means it has to be brought up to current standards (targeted for iOS 8, 64-bit, and probably with app thinning supported too at this point), which means that no, this is not as simple as paying $100 and pushing a button.
If your developers charge you $150/hr then they're estimating 20 hours work to get back into the code base, revise anything that needs revision, recompile, resubmit, and deal with the approval process. I'm not going to second guess the estimate but I'll say they could be quoting you the worst case number because you have a long relationship with them, and they don't want to quote you, say, five hours work and then go way over, because that's an express route to losing a steady client.
You can follow up and ask for a more detailed estimate of how they expect the hours to stack up, and you can ask them if there's a way to do it on the cheap, and you can ask if they plan to bill you for a minimum number of hours no matter what or if it's just going to be actual time, but for a lapsed app I'd be likely to guess about 20 hours work myself. It's possible that recompiling the app won't take long at all but it's also possible that there's at least one obsolete thing in it, and it's not just a matter of compiling for a new target.
posted by fedward at 11:48 AM on July 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
If your developers charge you $150/hr then they're estimating 20 hours work to get back into the code base, revise anything that needs revision, recompile, resubmit, and deal with the approval process. I'm not going to second guess the estimate but I'll say they could be quoting you the worst case number because you have a long relationship with them, and they don't want to quote you, say, five hours work and then go way over, because that's an express route to losing a steady client.
You can follow up and ask for a more detailed estimate of how they expect the hours to stack up, and you can ask them if there's a way to do it on the cheap, and you can ask if they plan to bill you for a minimum number of hours no matter what or if it's just going to be actual time, but for a lapsed app I'd be likely to guess about 20 hours work myself. It's possible that recompiling the app won't take long at all but it's also possible that there's at least one obsolete thing in it, and it's not just a matter of compiling for a new target.
posted by fedward at 11:48 AM on July 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
You don't mention how much the original project cost, but the quote seems pretty reasonable to me for a small team's maintenance cycle, bugfixes, and uploading.
I would also keep in mind that although it's your business, it's THEIR code. So if it just gets pushed to the app store and in 2 months gets rated with a ton of "1 star -- BROKEN on latest OS update :(" ratings, that reflects poorly on their company. They want to push the best version of the product that they can.
posted by specialagentwebb at 12:12 PM on July 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would also keep in mind that although it's your business, it's THEIR code. So if it just gets pushed to the app store and in 2 months gets rated with a ton of "1 star -- BROKEN on latest OS update :(" ratings, that reflects poorly on their company. They want to push the best version of the product that they can.
posted by specialagentwebb at 12:12 PM on July 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
They want to push the best version of the product that they can.
Seconding this, especially if their company's name is attached to the product in any way.
posted by Candleman at 12:25 PM on July 28, 2015
Seconding this, especially if their company's name is attached to the product in any way.
posted by Candleman at 12:25 PM on July 28, 2015
you own the copyright? then it's *your* code, no matter who developed it. if no, you likely still own the product, and are free to distribute it (just not the source code or IP).
It really doesn't matter to me if the app devs look bad. if putting a logo on it and looking good is part of their advertising model, they can help pay for the part of dev that keeps an app current. surely the devs new (like any competent shop) that software ages out of support. what was their plan? d'oh.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:05 PM on July 28, 2015
It really doesn't matter to me if the app devs look bad. if putting a logo on it and looking good is part of their advertising model, they can help pay for the part of dev that keeps an app current. surely the devs new (like any competent shop) that software ages out of support. what was their plan? d'oh.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:05 PM on July 28, 2015
As someone who's been on the dev shop side of this, my guess is that $3k is the bare minimum to make taking on the job worth while. At a lot of places, that's not even 2 work days. I could really see them not seeing the project worth the bother.
posted by sideshow at 2:57 PM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sideshow at 2:57 PM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Their charges are perfectly reasonable if the app does need updates.
Note that Apple can actually reject an app they've passed last year, e.g. if it does not have 64 bit support, or is buggy on iOS 8.4 or on iPhone 6+, so just re-uploading may not work.
If you are confident that the current binary is OK, you can learn to do this whole process yourself (although it is complicated), or negotiate with the devs to quote you for just re-uploading.
posted by w0mbat at 3:44 PM on July 28, 2015
Note that Apple can actually reject an app they've passed last year, e.g. if it does not have 64 bit support, or is buggy on iOS 8.4 or on iPhone 6+, so just re-uploading may not work.
If you are confident that the current binary is OK, you can learn to do this whole process yourself (although it is complicated), or negotiate with the devs to quote you for just re-uploading.
posted by w0mbat at 3:44 PM on July 28, 2015
Setting aside the money issue, very glad you received the code when you asked. This may be more of an risk with a single developer vs a small company, but putting yourself in the position of asking for your source code for the first time during negotiations or a dispute is a very precarious situation to be in. I've seen this go very poorly, to the extent of the source code never being produced and presumably deleted. I would recommend writing into all future contracts that payment on completion requires a functional product and delivery of final source code. Or they are offering you the product and keeping copyright on the source code, but again that should be firmly laid out in the contract.
posted by mirabelle at 5:14 AM on July 29, 2015
posted by mirabelle at 5:14 AM on July 29, 2015
Btw, I don't think this should be inherently risky! Most developers I know (my company included) would never dream of screwing over a client, but still, why put yourself in a weak position? Good luck.
posted by mirabelle at 5:19 AM on July 29, 2015
posted by mirabelle at 5:19 AM on July 29, 2015
So, you have to use Xcode to upload to the app store.
New versions of Xcode have come out since you last uploaded it. New versions of Xcode are very likely to flag things in the code that previous versions did not. Old projects are very likely not to even build with new versions of Xcode without minor modifications to the code or project settings. New versions of the SDK (which come with new versions of Xcode) are very likely to deprecate existing APIs which will require code to be re-written to use new APIs.
Each new iteration of iTunes Connect requires more and more screen shots, videos and other marketing material. New phones and device form factors require this as well. Each new iteration of iTunes Connect requires more questions to be answered and settings to be set correctly.
Each new device Apple ships requires existing layout code (auto-layout constraints using size classes) to be re-tested for that screen-size and pixel density. Each new SDK makes changes and fixes to the auto-layout engine, requiring testing and fixes.
Honestly, my professional opinion—as one who develops mobile apps, works with contractors who develop mobile apps, and helps companies with their cross-platform mobile strategy—is that you're getting a very reasonable price. It's not that they don't want to "just upload it and gamble that it works", it's that they very likely cannot just do that. Apple makes it very difficult to just do that.
(Google, on the other hand, let's you push whatever junk to Android's marketplace that you want. It takes seconds.)
A developer is going to have to context switch into your app, re-familiarize themselves with the project, get it to build, test it, debug it, fix it. Then a PM or whatever is going to have to deal with Apple's ridiculous iTunes Connect goat rodeo (which is currently down today, btw) for what is most likely a few days.
That being said, there is nothing involved that you can't do yourself or find someone else to do, especially if you have and own the copyright to the code. You can find someone to pay hourly who works cheaper. You may or may not get quality results from that. It will take longer. It will drag on and on. I've done it. I've seen it happen. I've been on all sides of this fence.
posted by jeffamaphone at 10:29 AM on July 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
New versions of Xcode have come out since you last uploaded it. New versions of Xcode are very likely to flag things in the code that previous versions did not. Old projects are very likely not to even build with new versions of Xcode without minor modifications to the code or project settings. New versions of the SDK (which come with new versions of Xcode) are very likely to deprecate existing APIs which will require code to be re-written to use new APIs.
Each new iteration of iTunes Connect requires more and more screen shots, videos and other marketing material. New phones and device form factors require this as well. Each new iteration of iTunes Connect requires more questions to be answered and settings to be set correctly.
Each new device Apple ships requires existing layout code (auto-layout constraints using size classes) to be re-tested for that screen-size and pixel density. Each new SDK makes changes and fixes to the auto-layout engine, requiring testing and fixes.
Honestly, my professional opinion—as one who develops mobile apps, works with contractors who develop mobile apps, and helps companies with their cross-platform mobile strategy—is that you're getting a very reasonable price. It's not that they don't want to "just upload it and gamble that it works", it's that they very likely cannot just do that. Apple makes it very difficult to just do that.
(Google, on the other hand, let's you push whatever junk to Android's marketplace that you want. It takes seconds.)
A developer is going to have to context switch into your app, re-familiarize themselves with the project, get it to build, test it, debug it, fix it. Then a PM or whatever is going to have to deal with Apple's ridiculous iTunes Connect goat rodeo (which is currently down today, btw) for what is most likely a few days.
That being said, there is nothing involved that you can't do yourself or find someone else to do, especially if you have and own the copyright to the code. You can find someone to pay hourly who works cheaper. You may or may not get quality results from that. It will take longer. It will drag on and on. I've done it. I've seen it happen. I've been on all sides of this fence.
posted by jeffamaphone at 10:29 AM on July 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
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That said, I do some consulting, and it wouldn't be worth my time to take a job as small as uploading an app for someone.
posted by primethyme at 9:16 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]