We're being flood controlled out of our home. What should we expect?
July 18, 2015 11:04 AM Subscribe
A few weeks ago our neighbors knocked on our door and surprised us with the news that the city we just moved to has instituted a flood control plan that will take our new house out of the 100 year flood plain (where it is now) and put it into the flood zone. And! the city will, in all likelihood, condemn not just our home and property but the entire neighborhood.
Mr. Makenpace and I just purchased a small house on a couple of acres up in the Pacific Northwest. It has a lot of potential, and we were hoping it would be our forever home. We had big plans for our little green acre, and we were just about to drop $20K on the first step (a perimeter fence) when our new neighbors came knocking. It seems that there's a curve in the river near our house that threatens to flood not only the nearby highway, but the nearby shopping center and the soon-to-be-built hotel. Well, we can't have that, now can we? According to what I found online, the town is implementing a flood control plan that will save the shopping center and highway, but will involve "relocating" the 15 or so residences that make up our neighborhood. They're supposed to start next summer. I believe they've acquired a few properties already (which is what brought the neighbors to our door).
There's a public meeting about this next Thursday which we will attend, but I'd like to go in forewarned and forearmed. Most of our neighbors are very 'they can't do this to us' but I know that they can, and will. Mr. Makenpace and I are just hoping that we break even. If this all goes down as we expect it to, we'll be glad to get what we owe for the house and maybe get enough to put a down payment on a new house, and hopefully get enough to move?
Has this happened to anyone else? What should we expect from this?
Also, if the city does buy our property, can we remove things like the rain barrels we just put on the house? What about the saplings we planted? Since we're not selling to someone who's going to live in the house, can't we simply pick it clean?
Mr. Makenpace and I just purchased a small house on a couple of acres up in the Pacific Northwest. It has a lot of potential, and we were hoping it would be our forever home. We had big plans for our little green acre, and we were just about to drop $20K on the first step (a perimeter fence) when our new neighbors came knocking. It seems that there's a curve in the river near our house that threatens to flood not only the nearby highway, but the nearby shopping center and the soon-to-be-built hotel. Well, we can't have that, now can we? According to what I found online, the town is implementing a flood control plan that will save the shopping center and highway, but will involve "relocating" the 15 or so residences that make up our neighborhood. They're supposed to start next summer. I believe they've acquired a few properties already (which is what brought the neighbors to our door).
There's a public meeting about this next Thursday which we will attend, but I'd like to go in forewarned and forearmed. Most of our neighbors are very 'they can't do this to us' but I know that they can, and will. Mr. Makenpace and I are just hoping that we break even. If this all goes down as we expect it to, we'll be glad to get what we owe for the house and maybe get enough to put a down payment on a new house, and hopefully get enough to move?
Has this happened to anyone else? What should we expect from this?
Also, if the city does buy our property, can we remove things like the rain barrels we just put on the house? What about the saplings we planted? Since we're not selling to someone who's going to live in the house, can't we simply pick it clean?
I would do two things.
1) Contact the lawyer who did your closing. Hopefully they can tell you what protections you might have. At very least a letter from them to the town asking exactly what will happen with your land might put you in the category of a homeowner who is both engaged and who knows their rights.
2) Contact the state. Don't assume the town has all of their ducks in a row. Call the state office which manages floodplains and ask the question about your rights and what they know about the situation.
You are right that you will have a hard time fighting this, but don't assume all is lost. There are rules in these situations, if they have not followed the rules, then you might have big brother on your side...
posted by NoDef at 11:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
1) Contact the lawyer who did your closing. Hopefully they can tell you what protections you might have. At very least a letter from them to the town asking exactly what will happen with your land might put you in the category of a homeowner who is both engaged and who knows their rights.
2) Contact the state. Don't assume the town has all of their ducks in a row. Call the state office which manages floodplains and ask the question about your rights and what they know about the situation.
You are right that you will have a hard time fighting this, but don't assume all is lost. There are rules in these situations, if they have not followed the rules, then you might have big brother on your side...
posted by NoDef at 11:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
Definitely get a real estate lawyer if you don't already have one. The city will most likely be seizing the property through eminent domain if you won't sell, and it would be good to know what your rights are. Eminent domain can get sticky real fast on the point of "what is a fair price?", and at least historically around here (Detroit-Toledo-Cleveland), "fair price" can go down rapidly if you cause the government problems.
That, however, doesn't mean you shouldn't cause them problems.
The lawyer can also tell you what you can do to/with the house even after the deal is made. Of course, living where I do, my first thought was "strip it clean of all metals, especially copper", but I tend to be ruthlessly pragmatic sometimes.
And yay? You didn't make any major improvements yet?
And finally - sympathy - that really sucks and has to be at least a little bit heartbreaking. :(
posted by RogueTech at 11:45 AM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
That, however, doesn't mean you shouldn't cause them problems.
The lawyer can also tell you what you can do to/with the house even after the deal is made. Of course, living where I do, my first thought was "strip it clean of all metals, especially copper", but I tend to be ruthlessly pragmatic sometimes.
And yay? You didn't make any major improvements yet?
And finally - sympathy - that really sucks and has to be at least a little bit heartbreaking. :(
posted by RogueTech at 11:45 AM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Typically government buy-outs pay "fair market value." If you recently purchased, the sale price will be evidence. I believe that relocation costs tend to be more disputed /iffy.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:46 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:46 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Article https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/report/2013/12/12/81046/moving-out-of-harms-way/
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:51 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:51 AM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: How would we find out if the previous owners knew this and didn't disclose the information? Wouldn't that be difficult to prove?
I will talk to Mr. Makenpace about getting a lawyer.
posted by MildredMakenpace at 12:16 PM on July 18, 2015
I will talk to Mr. Makenpace about getting a lawyer.
posted by MildredMakenpace at 12:16 PM on July 18, 2015
How did your neighbors hear about it? If the city had sent letters to the affected homeowners, that would be a provable way to show your sellers knew.
posted by stopgap at 12:22 PM on July 18, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by stopgap at 12:22 PM on July 18, 2015 [20 favorites]
Also look at the local paper or radio; was this reported on? If someone could reasonably have been expected to know, whether they actually knew is sometimes irrelevant...
posted by suelac at 1:11 PM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by suelac at 1:11 PM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would think that either this is hearsay at this point or the seller definitely knew. They're not going to demolish your house without sending a letter. A notice in the paper or on the radio is hardly adequate. So if you haven't had one, they haven't sent them yet and therefore this is not for certain happening to you, or the seller had one and didn't disclose (or didn't bother reading it)
I wouldn't just take my neighbour's word for it though.
Even if you get paid what you paid for the house, I'd be going after the seller for closing costs and moving expenses if they knew.
posted by missmagenta at 1:20 PM on July 18, 2015
I wouldn't just take my neighbour's word for it though.
Even if you get paid what you paid for the house, I'd be going after the seller for closing costs and moving expenses if they knew.
posted by missmagenta at 1:20 PM on July 18, 2015
Here is an article in the NY Times about a related situation on Fire Island in NY. I think the interesting a related part is the 30 page research paper one of the residents did on eminent domain and what it can be used for.
posted by AugustWest at 3:29 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by AugustWest at 3:29 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
In addition to the seller presumably having known this information, I would think that at least one of the two real estate agents involved in the transaction would have known, assuming they are professionals and know the area that they work in. In fact, check their respective websites to see if they published any newsletters on the issue. They may also carry some professional liability if they did not make sure this issue was disclosed during the sale. That's another question for your attorney.
posted by vignettist at 3:53 PM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by vignettist at 3:53 PM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'd also check your disclosures to make sure that they didn't in fact disclose this.
posted by slidell at 5:56 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by slidell at 5:56 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you, everyone, for your insights. This information was definitely not disclosed to us, as Mr. Makenpace and I went over the paperwork very carefully before signing it. Twice. I've spoken to our real estate agent, whom I've remained in contact with since we bought the house since she lives nearby. She had not heard about this project. She was as surprised and angry, as I was.
From what I understand, the county -- I misspoke when I said it was the city earlier -- hasn't been broadcasting their plans. What they have been doing is posting them on their official website (name of county.gov), which is where I got my information, and where I assume the neighbors got theirs. I haven't spoken to the neighbors since I posted this question, so I don't know if there was a letter sent. I will ask them though.
The timeline for this has been relatively quick. They proposed the plan in late 2013 with four alternatives. Chose this alternative in October of 2014, and are planning to proceed with it in July of 2016. There have been three public meetings -- only one that I was aware of which we missed -- in June of this year. And they cancelled the meeting for next Thursday to "assess further alternatives" because of "public feedback". I have no idea what that really means.
But none of this addresses the direct question which was, if the government does condemn the property, which is still a distinct possibility, what should we expect? I assume it's not going to be like a regular real estate transaction. Will it be quicker? Slower? How much time will we have to prepare?
And can we remove things from the house and the property if and when everything goes down the drain?
posted by MildredMakenpace at 10:13 AM on July 19, 2015
From what I understand, the county -- I misspoke when I said it was the city earlier -- hasn't been broadcasting their plans. What they have been doing is posting them on their official website (name of county.gov), which is where I got my information, and where I assume the neighbors got theirs. I haven't spoken to the neighbors since I posted this question, so I don't know if there was a letter sent. I will ask them though.
The timeline for this has been relatively quick. They proposed the plan in late 2013 with four alternatives. Chose this alternative in October of 2014, and are planning to proceed with it in July of 2016. There have been three public meetings -- only one that I was aware of which we missed -- in June of this year. And they cancelled the meeting for next Thursday to "assess further alternatives" because of "public feedback". I have no idea what that really means.
But none of this addresses the direct question which was, if the government does condemn the property, which is still a distinct possibility, what should we expect? I assume it's not going to be like a regular real estate transaction. Will it be quicker? Slower? How much time will we have to prepare?
And can we remove things from the house and the property if and when everything goes down the drain?
posted by MildredMakenpace at 10:13 AM on July 19, 2015
Best answer: IANAL, IANYL, TINLA. I am, however, a lawyer's kid, and one of my dad's specialties was litigation of condemnation cases (in Oklahoma, where there were also oil and gas profits to be accounted for, not just fair market value of the home itself). So I've had this explained to me by a guy who really knows the subject matter.
The way this sort of taking plays out is that the jurisdiction will notify you that they plan to take your house and they will offer you some approximation of what they believe to be fair market value. They may/can/should also offer to pay reasonable relocation expenses. They will base their FMV on recent sale records, accounting both for the price you paid and for comps. You have, in simple terms, three options:
For option 1 you probably want a lawyer; for options 2 or 3 you definitely need a lawyer. If option 1 works out, it will probably take somewhere between, say, 6 and 18 months for the process to complete, unless your government bureaucracy is remarkably efficient (in that case: 2-3 months is possible). For option 2, the timeframe depends on how good your documentation is and whether they negotiate in good faith. It can go reasonably quickly (say, you want $50K more and it's easier to pay you that than pay lawyers to pound things out), or it can drag on. And on. And on.
For option 3, if you dig your heels in you can prevent everything from happening for a couple years at least. My dad had one case for eight years before its settlement was final (he was not the one dragging it out; we had a really nice dinner the week he could take his fees out of escrow). Note that if you go the most aggressive route you run the risk of becoming Those Neighbors (or you're part of the Holdout Cabal reviled by the Sellout Cabal who can't get their money until you settle), and you may be dooming your prospects of ever selling the house with a looming condemnation bouncing around the courts. Your tolerance for that and/or your desire for a payout are known only to you.
I recommend you find a civil litigator who's actually a trial lawyer and not just a real estate lawyer who reads contracts. Get a lawyer now, do your due diligence on who knew what when, to figure out if there really should have been a disclosure, and then wait for an offer from the county. There's a decent chance they'll offer a premium just as Go Away money, and maybe if you have a lawyer you can bump that up even more, but you don't necessarily have to expect the worst.
posted by fedward at 2:47 PM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
The way this sort of taking plays out is that the jurisdiction will notify you that they plan to take your house and they will offer you some approximation of what they believe to be fair market value. They may/can/should also offer to pay reasonable relocation expenses. They will base their FMV on recent sale records, accounting both for the price you paid and for comps. You have, in simple terms, three options:
- Accept their offer. They pay you, your lien holder(s) take whatever their payoff amount is, and the rest is yours to use for the purchase of a new home outside the condemned area.
- Negotiate/counter their offer. This is applicable if you believe their offer is close but fails to take into account particular details that would raise the price of your specific property beyond their estimate. This could be that they didn't account for comps, or their comps weren't really equivalent to your property, or you had some improvement that wasn't listed, or you feel the relocation costs are insufficient (missing), or you want them to cover your capital gains taxes, or you think there should be a market rate adjustment to account for the fact you're going to be forced into a more expensive neighborhood, or whatever. You provide your documentation for your counterclaim, and they accept it or reject it (or they counter your counter, and so on).
- Refuse their offer outright and let the courts handle it. If their offer is a terrible lowball, or if you believe that you have a tort [civil wrong] claim against somebody, then start by lawyering up and then evaluate exactly how much you want to be on offense instead of defense. Since you just bought the house and there was no disclosure of this plan, you may have ground for a claim against the county registrar, your title company*, and/or the sellers, because it's reasonable to assume that somebody should have been able to raise a red flag on the transaction.
For option 1 you probably want a lawyer; for options 2 or 3 you definitely need a lawyer. If option 1 works out, it will probably take somewhere between, say, 6 and 18 months for the process to complete, unless your government bureaucracy is remarkably efficient (in that case: 2-3 months is possible). For option 2, the timeframe depends on how good your documentation is and whether they negotiate in good faith. It can go reasonably quickly (say, you want $50K more and it's easier to pay you that than pay lawyers to pound things out), or it can drag on. And on. And on.
For option 3, if you dig your heels in you can prevent everything from happening for a couple years at least. My dad had one case for eight years before its settlement was final (he was not the one dragging it out; we had a really nice dinner the week he could take his fees out of escrow). Note that if you go the most aggressive route you run the risk of becoming Those Neighbors (or you're part of the Holdout Cabal reviled by the Sellout Cabal who can't get their money until you settle), and you may be dooming your prospects of ever selling the house with a looming condemnation bouncing around the courts. Your tolerance for that and/or your desire for a payout are known only to you.
I recommend you find a civil litigator who's actually a trial lawyer and not just a real estate lawyer who reads contracts. Get a lawyer now, do your due diligence on who knew what when, to figure out if there really should have been a disclosure, and then wait for an offer from the county. There's a decent chance they'll offer a premium just as Go Away money, and maybe if you have a lawyer you can bump that up even more, but you don't necessarily have to expect the worst.
posted by fedward at 2:47 PM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
And if it wasn't clear: if they take your house, you're moving, but they're not bulldozing the thing as you drive away, with all your stuff still inside. So yes, you will be able to take stuff out of your house. All your stuff. Make sure they pay for moving expenses.
posted by fedward at 2:50 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by fedward at 2:50 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: On further review: don't get too excited about the possibility of a tort claim against anybody if the condemnation settlement makes you whole for the loss of your house. The courts tend to look down on plaintiffs who already got a fair settlement (or who are getting a fair settlement through other means) and who appear just to be shaking down as many people as possible on their way out. If there's a reasonable defense against your claim and the primary settlement offer appears to be successful and fair (e.g. covers not only the value of your home but relocation costs and pain and suffering) you're likely to have a tough time in court. It's possible that a lawyer may advise you to file such a claim and immediately continue it (in other words, get your protest recorded legally but then not actually pursue it) until the primary settlement is complete. If you're made whole, you can drop the case; if you're not, you can pursue damages. But that's up to you, your lawyer, and your state's rules on how such cases need to be handled.
posted by fedward at 7:56 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fedward at 7:56 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I understand how the courts work and the concept of being made "whole". Mr. Makenpace and I aren't looking for a windfall. We just want this whole thing to be done and over with one way or another. We're getting on in years and don't have the energy for long court battles or fights with the government. So long as we break even, we're happy campers.
posted by MildredMakenpace at 3:59 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MildredMakenpace at 3:59 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: As a quick follow up. We spoke with our neighbors and they told us that no one received a letter about these plans. We were told that the county acquired a property within the neighborhood without going public with their flood control plans, other than posting them on their website. That's what opened the floodgates of public outcry and had our neighbors informing us along with everyone else in the neighborhood what was happening. Then, as they say, the shit hit the fan, and it flew everywhere. This was just as Mr. Makenpace and I were buying our property. The former owners had no idea what this was even an issue. Neither did the realtors.
At this time, the county has withdrawn their plans to acquire properties and are "considering their options" with the flood control plans. We don't know what's going to happen, but until we do, Mr. Makenpace and I are not going to make any major improvements to our property.
posted by MildredMakenpace at 1:45 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
At this time, the county has withdrawn their plans to acquire properties and are "considering their options" with the flood control plans. We don't know what's going to happen, but until we do, Mr. Makenpace and I are not going to make any major improvements to our property.
posted by MildredMakenpace at 1:45 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
This reminds me. When I was a kid there was a rumor that our house would be condemned to expand a roadway. I'm not sure when the rumors started, but we moved away when I was 10, so certainly by then.
When I was in college, I took a road trip and dropped by my old hometown. I ran into the owner, who said it was lucky I'd come, because the house was due to be demolished in a few months. This was when I was 18 or 19. Point being, these things can take a really long time.
posted by slidell at 10:27 AM on August 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
When I was in college, I took a road trip and dropped by my old hometown. I ran into the owner, who said it was lucky I'd come, because the house was due to be demolished in a few months. This was when I was 18 or 19. Point being, these things can take a really long time.
posted by slidell at 10:27 AM on August 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by crw at 11:13 AM on July 18, 2015 [44 favorites]