Help me find my female voice
July 2, 2015 10:32 AM Subscribe
I enjoy writing short stories but I'm very aware of the fact that my female voice is somewhat lacking. Help?
Ironically (to me), the most critical complaints I've had about my female voice are feminist friends who usually spend a lot of time telling me how the genders are the same, so I assume that there must be significant but subtle markers that I'm somehow missing. It's not that my female voice is rubbish - it's that it's not significantly different to my male voice.
I'm tempted to say that part of the problem is that my male voice may not be hugely male, so the people complaining about my female voice are complaining that both sides have the same voice. :/
So, yeah... I need help in giving my genders their own voices without resorting to stereotypes. Can anyone recommend resources for me?
While thinking about this I've spent some time reading random mefi posts and I've realised that I have a hard time judging if the author is male or female. I'm not sure if this is relevant or not...
Ironically (to me), the most critical complaints I've had about my female voice are feminist friends who usually spend a lot of time telling me how the genders are the same, so I assume that there must be significant but subtle markers that I'm somehow missing. It's not that my female voice is rubbish - it's that it's not significantly different to my male voice.
I'm tempted to say that part of the problem is that my male voice may not be hugely male, so the people complaining about my female voice are complaining that both sides have the same voice. :/
So, yeah... I need help in giving my genders their own voices without resorting to stereotypes. Can anyone recommend resources for me?
While thinking about this I've spent some time reading random mefi posts and I've realised that I have a hard time judging if the author is male or female. I'm not sure if this is relevant or not...
Could we have an example of a particular complaint? I.e, they pointed to a particular passage or character and said "that sounds like a guy talking"?
posted by Mogur at 10:47 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 10:47 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not that my female voice is rubbish - it's that it's not significantly different to my male voice.
If all your men have the same 'male voice,' then the problem isn't the fact that your women sound like men - it's the fact that ALL of your characters sound the same as each other.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
If all your men have the same 'male voice,' then the problem isn't the fact that your women sound like men - it's the fact that ALL of your characters sound the same as each other.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
Examples would help. But reading dialogue out loud (say, with a partner) and even video recording it and rewatching later might help you "sound it out" for authenticity.
posted by easter queen at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2015
posted by easter queen at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2015
I've actually noticed this a lot -- the characters all sound the same because they're all speaking with the author's voice, not their own.
Could the problem be not so much with masculine vs feminine voice, but with your characterization in general? How fully formed are your characters? If they have their own backstories and inner lives, even if those aren't explored in the context of your short stories, then they'll end up "sounding" different from each other. Think about how you converse with people in real life. Do you speak with the same tone and use the same terms and phrases as everyone else?
Go to a coffee shop or restaurant and sit at a table within earshot of a male and female who are chatting, or a mixed group of any size (note: this has to be in person, in real life, not from watching a movie or TV show). Eavesdrop and write down their conversations as best you can. Look at the language they use -- how much each person speaks, how long or short the sentences are, how descriptive terms are used, how emotional language is used, who interjects or interrupts more, who trails off rather than completing a thought. Do this a lot. Think about the personality traits behind speech patterns. Analyze what you've observed and use it to flesh out your future characters, both male and female.
posted by erst at 10:56 AM on July 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Could the problem be not so much with masculine vs feminine voice, but with your characterization in general? How fully formed are your characters? If they have their own backstories and inner lives, even if those aren't explored in the context of your short stories, then they'll end up "sounding" different from each other. Think about how you converse with people in real life. Do you speak with the same tone and use the same terms and phrases as everyone else?
Go to a coffee shop or restaurant and sit at a table within earshot of a male and female who are chatting, or a mixed group of any size (note: this has to be in person, in real life, not from watching a movie or TV show). Eavesdrop and write down their conversations as best you can. Look at the language they use -- how much each person speaks, how long or short the sentences are, how descriptive terms are used, how emotional language is used, who interjects or interrupts more, who trails off rather than completing a thought. Do this a lot. Think about the personality traits behind speech patterns. Analyze what you've observed and use it to flesh out your future characters, both male and female.
posted by erst at 10:56 AM on July 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Listen to storytelling podcasts. They're real people narrating their own stories. Do you hear a difference generally when you listen? Explore that.
posted by inturnaround at 11:04 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by inturnaround at 11:04 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: It is quite possible that I'm writing everyone in my voice, and it's certainly possible that my own voice is quite distinctive because friends seem to recognise my writing (in a non fiction sense) long before they know it's me.
Maybe part of problem is that I don't seem to see those signifiers (of gender or personal ownership) in other people. I'll look out for them more.
Out of interest, Erst, why not from TV or movies? I once heard a mimic (Alistair McGowan?) tell a kid who wanted to do better impressions "don't listen to the person you want to copy - listen to someone else doing an impression of them". This sounds like the same sorry of thing...
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 11:16 AM on July 2, 2015
Maybe part of problem is that I don't seem to see those signifiers (of gender or personal ownership) in other people. I'll look out for them more.
Out of interest, Erst, why not from TV or movies? I once heard a mimic (Alistair McGowan?) tell a kid who wanted to do better impressions "don't listen to the person you want to copy - listen to someone else doing an impression of them". This sounds like the same sorry of thing...
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 11:16 AM on July 2, 2015
A mimic is concerned with conveying messages that are immediately identifiable; messages that are immediately identifiable tend to rely on stereotypes, on exaggerated between-group differences (which may or may not be useful to you depending on the kind of writing you're doing).
2nd Ernst - listen to how real-life women talk.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:23 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
2nd Ernst - listen to how real-life women talk.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:23 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
(I know AskMeFi isn't supposed to be a conversation, but...) TV and film are highly scripted and not reflective of how real people speak or react to conversation. Witty banter or deeply meaningful dramatic back-and-forth is all well and good, but it's rarely representative of actual speech patterns that would help you create original voices for separate characters in writing.
As to the quote from the mimic you mention... You don't want to learn to do an impression of a woman. You want to learn to write a female character with her own voice. There's a large difference.
posted by erst at 11:30 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
As to the quote from the mimic you mention... You don't want to learn to do an impression of a woman. You want to learn to write a female character with her own voice. There's a large difference.
posted by erst at 11:30 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Off the top of my head, Mulan is the only movie I can think of that does a great job of showing a woman with a stereotypically female motive: she joins the army in her father's place because she loves her father and does not want him to die, plus she feels obligated or guilty because if she had been a son instead of a daughter, she would be the one to go anyway -- though the family obligation aspect reads to me as more a Chinese thing than a female thing.
Research suggests men define themselves by what they do -- work, hobbies -- women define themselves by their relationships -- SO, family and friends. Another gender difference is that women view things in much more emotional terms, so morality is strongly influenced and judged in terms of caring rather than being right.
There are books on such subjects and on how it causes men and women to frame things differently when they speak. You might read up on that angle.
posted by Michele in California at 11:38 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Research suggests men define themselves by what they do -- work, hobbies -- women define themselves by their relationships -- SO, family and friends. Another gender difference is that women view things in much more emotional terms, so morality is strongly influenced and judged in terms of caring rather than being right.
There are books on such subjects and on how it causes men and women to frame things differently when they speak. You might read up on that angle.
posted by Michele in California at 11:38 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe part of problem is that I don't seem to see those signifiers (of gender or personal ownership) in other people. I'll look out for them more.
If I were you, I'd read through some short stories I liked and write down one significant piece of dialogue from at least two characters in each one, and see if you can spot the ways the author differentiated them.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:41 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
If I were you, I'd read through some short stories I liked and write down one significant piece of dialogue from at least two characters in each one, and see if you can spot the ways the author differentiated them.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:41 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I want to clarify one thing-- when you say "feminist friends who usually spend a lot of time telling me how the genders are the same," you mean that your friends say YOUR characters all sound the same, correct? Not that the genders should sound the same?
If you're interested in learning more about this on a sociological level, you might be interested in Janice Radway's Reading the Romance. It is very readable, and it is full of not only discussions about what women like to read (and the kind of female characters they like reading about), but it also features lots of interviews with women.
And maybe some Studs Terkel? His books are full of "monologues" gleaned from his hundreds of interviews with people. His books are older, but I imagine it would be interesting to read a sample of them with an eye for gendered speech, especially when his books will often feature people discussing the same topic from different perspectives.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:55 AM on July 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you're interested in learning more about this on a sociological level, you might be interested in Janice Radway's Reading the Romance. It is very readable, and it is full of not only discussions about what women like to read (and the kind of female characters they like reading about), but it also features lots of interviews with women.
And maybe some Studs Terkel? His books are full of "monologues" gleaned from his hundreds of interviews with people. His books are older, but I imagine it would be interesting to read a sample of them with an eye for gendered speech, especially when his books will often feature people discussing the same topic from different perspectives.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:55 AM on July 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
This quote from Dorothy Sayers about writing natural conversation between men might be something to mull over:
“A man once asked me ... how I managed in my books to write such natural conversation between men when they were by themselves. Was I, by any chance, a member of a large, mixed family with a lot of male friends? I replied that, on the contrary, I was an only child and had practically never seen or spoken to any men of my own age till I was about twenty-five. "Well," said the man, "I shouldn't have expected a woman (meaning me) to have been able to make it so convincing." I replied that I had coped with this difficult problem by making my men talk, as far as possible, like ordinary human beings. This aspect of the matter seemed to surprise the other speaker; he said no more, but took it away to chew it over. One of these days it may quite likely occur to him that women, as well as men, when left to themselves, talk very much like human beings also.”
posted by frobozz at 12:01 PM on July 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
“A man once asked me ... how I managed in my books to write such natural conversation between men when they were by themselves. Was I, by any chance, a member of a large, mixed family with a lot of male friends? I replied that, on the contrary, I was an only child and had practically never seen or spoken to any men of my own age till I was about twenty-five. "Well," said the man, "I shouldn't have expected a woman (meaning me) to have been able to make it so convincing." I replied that I had coped with this difficult problem by making my men talk, as far as possible, like ordinary human beings. This aspect of the matter seemed to surprise the other speaker; he said no more, but took it away to chew it over. One of these days it may quite likely occur to him that women, as well as men, when left to themselves, talk very much like human beings also.”
posted by frobozz at 12:01 PM on July 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Aft - erm, both. Ish.
People are telling me my female characters don't sound female.
The comment about feminist friends was stupid and I'd retract it if I could, but my point was that I'm so overly aware of not treating people differently that it jarred when feminist friends told me my characters didn't sound female. If a locker room jock told me my characters didn't sound female I'd assume he thought my characters didn't spend enough time massaging their breasts and discussing nail polish. As a guy in a very male field, having a very equality driven feminist woman tell me my females don't sound female jarred - after all these are the exact demographic who wouldn't expect my female characters to be purely flowers and rainbows. That contact was the impetus to try and change my writing.
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 12:51 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
People are telling me my female characters don't sound female.
The comment about feminist friends was stupid and I'd retract it if I could, but my point was that I'm so overly aware of not treating people differently that it jarred when feminist friends told me my characters didn't sound female. If a locker room jock told me my characters didn't sound female I'd assume he thought my characters didn't spend enough time massaging their breasts and discussing nail polish. As a guy in a very male field, having a very equality driven feminist woman tell me my females don't sound female jarred - after all these are the exact demographic who wouldn't expect my female characters to be purely flowers and rainbows. That contact was the impetus to try and change my writing.
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 12:51 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: ( my point, that I forgot to make, is that I'm led to believe my females sound too male, not that I paint them as female stereotypes. I shall now stop reading and commenting for a while. :) )
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 1:05 PM on July 2, 2015
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 1:05 PM on July 2, 2015
feminist friends told me my characters didn't sound female. . . having a very equality driven feminist woman tell me my females don't sound female jarred - after all these are the exact demographic who wouldn't expect my female characters to be purely flowers and rainbows. That contact was the impetus to try and change my writing.
Gotcha. Speaking for myself, I wanted to give an example of another writer who does this, and how, as a feminist, I notice/get irritated by it.
I can no longer watch Aaron Sorkin shows. Some of this is his nonstop smugness, I admit, but a lot of it is that I feel like his women are more like women puppets who have nice hair and makeup but solely exist to espouse the things that Aaron Sorkin wishes women would say/believe. Part of this is not just because of the way that they talk, exactly, but because of the way they interact with each other and with male characters. It isn’t that I expect women to have flowers and rainbows, as you say. In the case of Sorkin, his women are SO even-keeled and “we’re all just progressives here!” with the men that it rings as false. Women who talk to their ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends with constant, cool equanimity, even when those men say loathsome things is one thing I associate with Sorkin. I love Sports Night, but in retrospect, the porn star acted just like the assistant on the show acted just like the boss on the show acted just like Danny’s therapist/almost-girlfriend.
I haven’t read your work, so I obviously have nothing to say about it, and I am DEFINITELY not accusing you of being Sorkin-y, but when I think an author is failing to write real women characters, it is as much about how those characters react to circumstances and to each other as the things those characters actually say out loud.
Also, women talking to each other often codeswitch, even if only slightly, from the way that they talk in mixed gender company. It isn’t like dudes disappear and the topic turns to tampons (although, sometimes!), but sometimes it is a level of vulnerability that becomes enhanced, sometimes it is a mutual “can you believe that guy” interaction, sometimes it is any number of a million different things, but a level of ever-so-slight guardedness around men (that no one even noticed before) sometimes dissipates.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:16 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Gotcha. Speaking for myself, I wanted to give an example of another writer who does this, and how, as a feminist, I notice/get irritated by it.
I can no longer watch Aaron Sorkin shows. Some of this is his nonstop smugness, I admit, but a lot of it is that I feel like his women are more like women puppets who have nice hair and makeup but solely exist to espouse the things that Aaron Sorkin wishes women would say/believe. Part of this is not just because of the way that they talk, exactly, but because of the way they interact with each other and with male characters. It isn’t that I expect women to have flowers and rainbows, as you say. In the case of Sorkin, his women are SO even-keeled and “we’re all just progressives here!” with the men that it rings as false. Women who talk to their ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends with constant, cool equanimity, even when those men say loathsome things is one thing I associate with Sorkin. I love Sports Night, but in retrospect, the porn star acted just like the assistant on the show acted just like the boss on the show acted just like Danny’s therapist/almost-girlfriend.
I haven’t read your work, so I obviously have nothing to say about it, and I am DEFINITELY not accusing you of being Sorkin-y, but when I think an author is failing to write real women characters, it is as much about how those characters react to circumstances and to each other as the things those characters actually say out loud.
Also, women talking to each other often codeswitch, even if only slightly, from the way that they talk in mixed gender company. It isn’t like dudes disappear and the topic turns to tampons (although, sometimes!), but sometimes it is a level of vulnerability that becomes enhanced, sometimes it is a mutual “can you believe that guy” interaction, sometimes it is any number of a million different things, but a level of ever-so-slight guardedness around men (that no one even noticed before) sometimes dissipates.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:16 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am a feminist, and I believe that most of the major differences we see between men's and women's behaviour aren't because of biology, but because of socialization. Women's lived experience is different than men's, and this influences the way we react, think, and speak.
So maybe work on thinking if the way your female characters speak, think, and react is consistent with what a woman's lived experience would be in the real world (taking into account that this will vary between women, of course).
You're right to avoid stereotypes, but acknowledging that women experience different treatment than men, and thinking about how that might influence their behaviour, will help your female characters be more realistic.
Reading MeFi threads is a good way to do this--the "Schroedinger's rapist" thread is often very eye-opening for a lot of men trying to get a grasp on this stuff. Good luck!
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:26 PM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
So maybe work on thinking if the way your female characters speak, think, and react is consistent with what a woman's lived experience would be in the real world (taking into account that this will vary between women, of course).
You're right to avoid stereotypes, but acknowledging that women experience different treatment than men, and thinking about how that might influence their behaviour, will help your female characters be more realistic.
Reading MeFi threads is a good way to do this--the "Schroedinger's rapist" thread is often very eye-opening for a lot of men trying to get a grasp on this stuff. Good luck!
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:26 PM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Link to the Schroedinger's Rapist thread.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:35 PM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:35 PM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Make sure you're reading good woman-written women-centered literature, as well.
posted by jaguar at 2:20 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jaguar at 2:20 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Um, it's kind of weird to think about 'female voice' in a vacuum. A Goth teenager sulking at her parents' party is not going to have the same voice as a weary phlebotomist ordering fast food, or a shy-but-stolid vendor at the farmers market, or a crisp veterinarian speaking alternately to her human client, her animal client, and her vet tech.
In fact, I suspect the female vet's voice has a lot more in common with her male colleague than with any of the other women listed.
I like erst's suggestion. But I also think you should go back and ask your feminist friends what the hell they're talking about, because right now it feels a bit like you're asking us to read their minds. Ask them to point to the page and show you where it hurts.
posted by feral_goldfish at 2:27 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
In fact, I suspect the female vet's voice has a lot more in common with her male colleague than with any of the other women listed.
I like erst's suggestion. But I also think you should go back and ask your feminist friends what the hell they're talking about, because right now it feels a bit like you're asking us to read their minds. Ask them to point to the page and show you where it hurts.
posted by feral_goldfish at 2:27 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ethics of Care originated by Carol Gilligan.
If you google "ethics of justice vs ethics of care" you can find lots of other sources on this concept that men and women measure moral decisions through a different lens.
There is also a version of this done in the form of what my bike taught me about male privilege, but I can never seem to find it when I want it: What my bike taught me about white privilege. The basic concept is a good one and I appreciate it in part because I gave up my car some years ago and I kvetch a LOT about "car people" and the really biased assumptions they make that turn pedestrians into second class citizens. America isn't really designed for people anymore. It is designed for cars and, oh, their drivers. If you aren't among them, hey, screw you. If you can wrap your head around that, you can get some insight into what it is like to be a woman as well (or any number of other "second class citizen" groups).
posted by Michele in California at 2:30 PM on July 2, 2015
If you google "ethics of justice vs ethics of care" you can find lots of other sources on this concept that men and women measure moral decisions through a different lens.
There is also a version of this done in the form of what my bike taught me about male privilege, but I can never seem to find it when I want it: What my bike taught me about white privilege. The basic concept is a good one and I appreciate it in part because I gave up my car some years ago and I kvetch a LOT about "car people" and the really biased assumptions they make that turn pedestrians into second class citizens. America isn't really designed for people anymore. It is designed for cars and, oh, their drivers. If you aren't among them, hey, screw you. If you can wrap your head around that, you can get some insight into what it is like to be a woman as well (or any number of other "second class citizen" groups).
posted by Michele in California at 2:30 PM on July 2, 2015
I think the Sayers quote reflects what your feminist friends have told you before, that men and women are human beings and the way they talk is generally much more similar than it is different. And you'll sometimes hear the idea in Hollywood that you can create more interesting female characters by taking some roles that were written for a man and then cast a woman in the part instead. (That was apparently how Ripley from Alien happened.) Women talk in all sorts of ways, and Dana Scully, for example, definitely doesn't "talk like a woman" the way the women in Friend Green Tomatoes "talk like women" but she's obviously a woman and she's an interesting character.
But if you're being told (by several people) that your female characters don't read as women, something's off. It could be a good idea for you to try basing a female character's personality on somebody you know. When you write her scenes, try to get inside her head and think of how she would react or what she would say. As an exercise, put plot aside and try to write some scenes that are all about exploring a female character's feelings and reactions.
I'd also suggest looking at your female dialogue and trying to determine if your women's attitudes are off in the same way, and if they behave in ways that are more stereotypically male. Are they all clipped and businesslike? Do they engage in lots of raunchy talk? These are things that women can certainly do, but if ALL of your women are doing that stuff it could seem weird.
Finally, just as an experiment maybe you should try making a character who is a total "girly girl". A real princess type who wears pink and loves flowers and puppies and is obsessed with shoes and all that stuff. She may be so different from your usual female characters that she creates an interesting challenge. You might even find that she's a lot of fun to write!
Ultimately every character has to come from some place inside of you, so you've got to do some role playing here. You've got to try and BECOME a woman, on some level, to write a good woman character.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:47 PM on July 2, 2015
But if you're being told (by several people) that your female characters don't read as women, something's off. It could be a good idea for you to try basing a female character's personality on somebody you know. When you write her scenes, try to get inside her head and think of how she would react or what she would say. As an exercise, put plot aside and try to write some scenes that are all about exploring a female character's feelings and reactions.
I'd also suggest looking at your female dialogue and trying to determine if your women's attitudes are off in the same way, and if they behave in ways that are more stereotypically male. Are they all clipped and businesslike? Do they engage in lots of raunchy talk? These are things that women can certainly do, but if ALL of your women are doing that stuff it could seem weird.
Finally, just as an experiment maybe you should try making a character who is a total "girly girl". A real princess type who wears pink and loves flowers and puppies and is obsessed with shoes and all that stuff. She may be so different from your usual female characters that she creates an interesting challenge. You might even find that she's a lot of fun to write!
Ultimately every character has to come from some place inside of you, so you've got to do some role playing here. You've got to try and BECOME a woman, on some level, to write a good woman character.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:47 PM on July 2, 2015
Is this more about female character's dialogue, or more about stories written from a first-person point of view in which the narrator is female? Definitely a big difference there.
Also, I agree that this question is nearly impossible to answer without a writing sample. Take a few minutes and write one if you're worried about your existing work being identified.
But one thing that might be helpful: when you write a line for a woman, close your eyes and picture a woman saying it, and see whether it strikes you as more unfriendly or cold than you meant it to sound. Because women are expected to be more open and responsive in conversation than men are. It's that "emotional work" thing. If someone asks a man a question, and he gives a brief and to-the-point answer, it's fine; if someone asks a woman a question, she's expected to take it as more of a conversational overture, and if she gives a brief and to-the-point answer she's breaking that expectation. So most women who are in self-protective, go-along-to-get-along mode will give a slightly more expansive, conversational answer than a man would. Feel free to have your female characters provide brief, crisp answers to questions, but be aware that, realistically, that would result in them being perceived as unfriendly or even actively rude.
posted by ostro at 2:55 PM on July 2, 2015
Also, I agree that this question is nearly impossible to answer without a writing sample. Take a few minutes and write one if you're worried about your existing work being identified.
But one thing that might be helpful: when you write a line for a woman, close your eyes and picture a woman saying it, and see whether it strikes you as more unfriendly or cold than you meant it to sound. Because women are expected to be more open and responsive in conversation than men are. It's that "emotional work" thing. If someone asks a man a question, and he gives a brief and to-the-point answer, it's fine; if someone asks a woman a question, she's expected to take it as more of a conversational overture, and if she gives a brief and to-the-point answer she's breaking that expectation. So most women who are in self-protective, go-along-to-get-along mode will give a slightly more expansive, conversational answer than a man would. Feel free to have your female characters provide brief, crisp answers to questions, but be aware that, realistically, that would result in them being perceived as unfriendly or even actively rude.
posted by ostro at 2:55 PM on July 2, 2015
There are some facts (actually, "expert informed opinions" -- all studies are up for debate) you can turn to, here.
Most scientific studies have failed to find that there are substantial differences in the way men and women talk, despite anecdotal feelings. (I certainly FEEL like I talk differently than men...but the science doesn't back me up beyond very slight differences that are not consistent from study to study.) Here's one good summary of that.
Individual studies have found some things that you might find interesting, but really the differences are slight.
In that same summary I link above, women:
Use attention-getting devices "much more often than men do. These are the question format ("d'y know what?"), introductory remarks ("this is interesting."), and "you know." This last occurs ten times more frequently in women's speech than in men's."
Use less obscenities and hostile language than men do.
Use less numerals and more feeling or emotion words than men do.
From other articles:
Women talk more about people, men talk more about concrete objects.
Women speak more about feelings and men speak more about facts (women speak more to build relationships and men speak more to communicate information).
Women may ask questions differently than men do.
And, not about how women talk so much as good for accurate gendered dialogue:
Women get interrupted much more frequently (including by other women).
posted by amaire at 3:17 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Most scientific studies have failed to find that there are substantial differences in the way men and women talk, despite anecdotal feelings. (I certainly FEEL like I talk differently than men...but the science doesn't back me up beyond very slight differences that are not consistent from study to study.) Here's one good summary of that.
Individual studies have found some things that you might find interesting, but really the differences are slight.
In that same summary I link above, women:
Use attention-getting devices "much more often than men do. These are the question format ("d'y know what?"), introductory remarks ("this is interesting."), and "you know." This last occurs ten times more frequently in women's speech than in men's."
Use less obscenities and hostile language than men do.
Use less numerals and more feeling or emotion words than men do.
From other articles:
Women talk more about people, men talk more about concrete objects.
Women speak more about feelings and men speak more about facts (women speak more to build relationships and men speak more to communicate information).
Women may ask questions differently than men do.
And, not about how women talk so much as good for accurate gendered dialogue:
Women get interrupted much more frequently (including by other women).
posted by amaire at 3:17 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Note also that this question can't be answered without considering your stories' milieux. For careful transcription and analysis of one stereotypical female voice, for example, see Don Kulick's 'Speaking as a Woman'.
posted by feral_goldfish at 3:26 PM on July 2, 2015
posted by feral_goldfish at 3:26 PM on July 2, 2015
There is a bit of a contradiction here. On one hand, you don't want stereotypes, and on the other, "sounding like a woman" implies at least a little bit of stereotyping.
There is a post on Language log which discusses how women use the word "just" more often than men. So there really are differences in speech as well as topic.
I'm not a Lit Crit kind of guy. When I read a book, I'm more interested in whether my characters are interesting than in how they talk. I think I'd notice a woman behaving like a man, e.g. starting a fist fight, than in talking like one. Besides, if you make your style your own, it will work out OK.
I don't know who I'd pick as exemplar of writer of female dialog, but for male dialog, I'd go with Rex Stout, at least for mid-west, American men.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:03 PM on July 2, 2015
There is a post on Language log which discusses how women use the word "just" more often than men. So there really are differences in speech as well as topic.
I'm not a Lit Crit kind of guy. When I read a book, I'm more interested in whether my characters are interesting than in how they talk. I think I'd notice a woman behaving like a man, e.g. starting a fist fight, than in talking like one. Besides, if you make your style your own, it will work out OK.
I don't know who I'd pick as exemplar of writer of female dialog, but for male dialog, I'd go with Rex Stout, at least for mid-west, American men.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:03 PM on July 2, 2015
As a guy in a very male field, having a very equality driven feminist woman tell me my females don't sound female jarred - after all these are the exact demographic who wouldn't expect my female characters to be purely flowers and rainbows.
I'm a woman who has previously mentioned this complaint to male authors when critiquing their work. What usually seems off to me are bodily descriptions that feel like they're cast in the male gaze. Women rarely fixate on their own secondary sex characteristics unless they're in the throes of puberty or, like, lactating (the only time I've ever been really really focused on my breasts, personally). It's not that the characters massage their breasts, just that their breasts are given prominence in thought that doesn't match my experiences as a woman or girl.
So that's one big red flag. Another is casting gender roles in a way that isn't quite stereotypical but is steeped in male perspective. Naggy wives are a big red flag. Naggy mothers. Women who hate each other or all other women. Women who are so beautiful that all other women hate them. Women who are irritating and then die gristly deaths. Women who are Tough Rape Survivors or backstory women who are placed in refrigerators as motivation for men to do big, important, heroic things. Women who aren't protagonists but instead play bit parts in men's lives.
A big thing is that many men don't have the slightest idea how things like female reproduction works, how hormones, periods, pregnancy, and lactation impact their lives. This is a big flashing light for "written by a man" for me. Read Taking Charge of Your Fertility. Seriously.
A good example of a piece of media failing the interrogate the female perspective sufficiently is this Mad Max: Fury Road prequel comic. A piece of media that does this well is Mad Max: Fury Road.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:25 PM on July 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm a woman who has previously mentioned this complaint to male authors when critiquing their work. What usually seems off to me are bodily descriptions that feel like they're cast in the male gaze. Women rarely fixate on their own secondary sex characteristics unless they're in the throes of puberty or, like, lactating (the only time I've ever been really really focused on my breasts, personally). It's not that the characters massage their breasts, just that their breasts are given prominence in thought that doesn't match my experiences as a woman or girl.
So that's one big red flag. Another is casting gender roles in a way that isn't quite stereotypical but is steeped in male perspective. Naggy wives are a big red flag. Naggy mothers. Women who hate each other or all other women. Women who are so beautiful that all other women hate them. Women who are irritating and then die gristly deaths. Women who are Tough Rape Survivors or backstory women who are placed in refrigerators as motivation for men to do big, important, heroic things. Women who aren't protagonists but instead play bit parts in men's lives.
A big thing is that many men don't have the slightest idea how things like female reproduction works, how hormones, periods, pregnancy, and lactation impact their lives. This is a big flashing light for "written by a man" for me. Read Taking Charge of Your Fertility. Seriously.
A good example of a piece of media failing the interrogate the female perspective sufficiently is this Mad Max: Fury Road prequel comic. A piece of media that does this well is Mad Max: Fury Road.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:25 PM on July 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Deborah Tannen wrote the book on this "That is not what I meant," and that's been helpful to me. She has a lot of You Tube videos that discuss aspects of gender-language. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUxnBZxsfoU
I think in my own experience, women use longer sentences and explain and describe more. You know the joke, where the woman says what she's going to bring tonight when she goes to her boyfriend's house-- "I think I'll take those pastellitos from A Taste of Havana, you know, the guava ones, and maybe the strawberry ones too, although I always end up with all the powdered sugar all over my blouse after I eat those. But they're so good! And Ronnie, you will love them, I know. I think I'll also stop at the farmer's market and pick up some sweet corn. You don't have a lot of pots and pans, but if you doesn't have one big enough for an ear of corn, we can just break them in half. I hope you have butter-- well, maybe I should get some of that too. I know some people say really fresh corn doesn't need butter, but I just love the soothing taste of butter on almost anything. Ha, ha, don't you think anything dirty about that! I just mean to put the butter on the corn, really!"
And the guy breaks in to say, "Come naked. Bring beer."
Okay, that's a joke, but there's truth in that. Women tend to notice more and describe more. They see and say more gradations, more nuances. (In general! Of course, there are loquacious men and silent women also.)
Women are also more likely to ask questions, even to the silly point, "It's raining, isn't it?"
Of course, every character is individual, and that's the most important thing to notice. Women are people first, and their agenda for this communication and their mood and their value system will all play into how they express themselves. But in general... women describe and explain and ask more. They don't necessarily talk more, but the sentences and communications will be longer usually.
posted by pippin at 6:37 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think in my own experience, women use longer sentences and explain and describe more. You know the joke, where the woman says what she's going to bring tonight when she goes to her boyfriend's house-- "I think I'll take those pastellitos from A Taste of Havana, you know, the guava ones, and maybe the strawberry ones too, although I always end up with all the powdered sugar all over my blouse after I eat those. But they're so good! And Ronnie, you will love them, I know. I think I'll also stop at the farmer's market and pick up some sweet corn. You don't have a lot of pots and pans, but if you doesn't have one big enough for an ear of corn, we can just break them in half. I hope you have butter-- well, maybe I should get some of that too. I know some people say really fresh corn doesn't need butter, but I just love the soothing taste of butter on almost anything. Ha, ha, don't you think anything dirty about that! I just mean to put the butter on the corn, really!"
And the guy breaks in to say, "Come naked. Bring beer."
Okay, that's a joke, but there's truth in that. Women tend to notice more and describe more. They see and say more gradations, more nuances. (In general! Of course, there are loquacious men and silent women also.)
Women are also more likely to ask questions, even to the silly point, "It's raining, isn't it?"
Of course, every character is individual, and that's the most important thing to notice. Women are people first, and their agenda for this communication and their mood and their value system will all play into how they express themselves. But in general... women describe and explain and ask more. They don't necessarily talk more, but the sentences and communications will be longer usually.
posted by pippin at 6:37 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
SemiSalt-- great dialoguists of women:
Susan Elizabeth Phillips (Nobody's Baby but Mine has some great interchanges between a woman and her man which illustrate the difference in characters as well as genders)
Jenny Crusie (Temptation)
These are both humorous writers, because, I suppose, comedy is more language-intensive.
Tess Gerritsen has some tough (not "girly") women characters who sound like themselves but also different from tough men-- recognizably female.
I remember a writing teacher saying that we have to be "bilingual" as fiction writers, conversant in both male and female speak. Women have an advantage there, as most of us have spent a lifetime interpreting male-speak, but the first step, of course, is listening. And it's complicated by the fact that women talk a bit differently in the presence of men than if they're just with women, so it's hard for men to listen in to those all-female conversations without eavesdropping!
posted by pippin at 6:42 PM on July 2, 2015
Susan Elizabeth Phillips (Nobody's Baby but Mine has some great interchanges between a woman and her man which illustrate the difference in characters as well as genders)
Jenny Crusie (Temptation)
These are both humorous writers, because, I suppose, comedy is more language-intensive.
Tess Gerritsen has some tough (not "girly") women characters who sound like themselves but also different from tough men-- recognizably female.
I remember a writing teacher saying that we have to be "bilingual" as fiction writers, conversant in both male and female speak. Women have an advantage there, as most of us have spent a lifetime interpreting male-speak, but the first step, of course, is listening. And it's complicated by the fact that women talk a bit differently in the presence of men than if they're just with women, so it's hard for men to listen in to those all-female conversations without eavesdropping!
posted by pippin at 6:42 PM on July 2, 2015
I'm a woman, a writer, a linguist, and a feminist - and I honestly object to some of what is said in this thread about how "female voices" differ from "male voices."
Pippin, I'm sorry to single you out, but this is an example of exactly what I mean: You given an anecdote in which the woman is much more loquaicious then the man, practically rambling on - and then give a stereotypically male response focused on tits and booze.
But we know from existing research that (a) women don't actually talk that much more than men, if they do at all, and (b) our subjective perceptions of how much women talk are seriously fucked up.
This, though, is on the nose:
Or, to put it this way: If you randomized the genders of your characters in a scene and gave it to me, I don't think that I should be able to identify their original genders. There are some cases where I would expect some differences in experiences and perspective, but gender should not be immediately obvious all the time.
This is why it can often work really well to switch or randomize the genders of your characters when you're trying to avoid stereotypical representations. It wouldn't work if men and women weren't more alike than they are different. Sure, you might have to make some adjustments, but we're all people first.
sodium lights, I sincerely believe that your question cannot be answered without us knowing your writing. Even then, there will likely be a range of opinions. We can suggest problems that we've seen before when people write female characters, and people have made good points about that above, but we can't tell you what the "female voice" is, because there is none.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:44 AM on July 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pippin, I'm sorry to single you out, but this is an example of exactly what I mean: You given an anecdote in which the woman is much more loquaicious then the man, practically rambling on - and then give a stereotypically male response focused on tits and booze.
But we know from existing research that (a) women don't actually talk that much more than men, if they do at all, and (b) our subjective perceptions of how much women talk are seriously fucked up.
This, though, is on the nose:
Women are people firstThere is a tremendous range of individual variation. We can talk about statistically significant differences between the genders, some of which have already been brought up, but these are swamped by individual differences. There is no "male voice" and no "female voice" in the sense that you should be able to identify gender right off the bat from how someone talks.
Or, to put it this way: If you randomized the genders of your characters in a scene and gave it to me, I don't think that I should be able to identify their original genders. There are some cases where I would expect some differences in experiences and perspective, but gender should not be immediately obvious all the time.
This is why it can often work really well to switch or randomize the genders of your characters when you're trying to avoid stereotypical representations. It wouldn't work if men and women weren't more alike than they are different. Sure, you might have to make some adjustments, but we're all people first.
sodium lights, I sincerely believe that your question cannot be answered without us knowing your writing. Even then, there will likely be a range of opinions. We can suggest problems that we've seen before when people write female characters, and people have made good points about that above, but we can't tell you what the "female voice" is, because there is none.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:44 AM on July 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why not read up on great female literature from the 19th, 20th and 21st century with an open eye for voice? Of course you would not want to copy but you could most certainly learn. My studies entailed female literature, so I am happy to make some suggestions:
Pride and Prejudice
Their eyes were watching god
The Awakening
Madame Bovary
Of course these are all older but I think it is great to look at the beginnings of the female voice in literature because maybe it was more distinct.
If you want a broader selection, you could also take a look at these lists:
* best women-authored books
* best female lead characters
posted by Fallbala at 4:02 AM on July 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Pride and Prejudice
Their eyes were watching god
The Awakening
Madame Bovary
Of course these are all older but I think it is great to look at the beginnings of the female voice in literature because maybe it was more distinct.
If you want a broader selection, you could also take a look at these lists:
* best women-authored books
* best female lead characters
posted by Fallbala at 4:02 AM on July 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
My two cents, for what they're worth:
(1) I stopped reading John Grisham years ago due to a conclusion that he can't write women, but I don't recall having that particular reaction to any other author (I read moderately, no longer voraciously).
(2) the question of whether men or women write particular mefi posts/comments is an interesting one too - I often can't tell/don't think about it, though I am sometimes surprised to realize I have assumed one or the other and either I am wrong or other people are making the opposite assumption.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 7:07 AM on July 3, 2015
(1) I stopped reading John Grisham years ago due to a conclusion that he can't write women, but I don't recall having that particular reaction to any other author (I read moderately, no longer voraciously).
(2) the question of whether men or women write particular mefi posts/comments is an interesting one too - I often can't tell/don't think about it, though I am sometimes surprised to realize I have assumed one or the other and either I am wrong or other people are making the opposite assumption.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 7:07 AM on July 3, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
That said, I don't think there are particular things you can just add to your writing and hey presto, this sentence sounds like it's spoken by a woman and that one sounds like it's spoken by a man. I think your purpose might be better served by making sure the characters' dialogue sounds like real people would actually speak it. That's a weakness in a hell of a lot of fiction; it doesn't sound like the authors ever read the dialogue out loud to see how it sounds. Maybe that's what your readers are reacting to.
posted by holborne at 10:45 AM on July 2, 2015 [6 favorites]