How does one engage respectfully with a combative, dogmatic atheist?
June 29, 2015 7:03 PM Subscribe
How does one engage respectfully with a combative atheist who tries to convince you that most major religions are inherently anti-humanist / anti- enlightenment? I am an atheist myself, but I respect people who are religious.
This person (my mom!) doesn't seem to want to respect religious difference. When people say "Bless you" to her she looks at them with a sort of sarcastic quizzical look and says "no thank you" or "why?" She believes that the major monotheistic texts are inflexible and inherently murderous. When I try to explain how "reform"-oriented people work to re-interpret ancient texts to allow for feminism and pro-homosexuality, she claims that this is inherently paradoxical as a re-interpretation of a divine text is heresy. She doesn't seem to care that an entire realm of study called theology has been devoted to interpretation. She mocks me when I repeat truisms such as Christianity and Islam being a religion of peace, for example. She is well-armed and reads a lot of Sam Harris (etc.) and cites verses from the texts and methods of interpretation. I am frustrated because anytime religion comes up even tangentially in conversation, she seems to always come back to the same overly simplified understanding of religion as an outmoded barbarism.
This person (my mom!) doesn't seem to want to respect religious difference. When people say "Bless you" to her she looks at them with a sort of sarcastic quizzical look and says "no thank you" or "why?" She believes that the major monotheistic texts are inflexible and inherently murderous. When I try to explain how "reform"-oriented people work to re-interpret ancient texts to allow for feminism and pro-homosexuality, she claims that this is inherently paradoxical as a re-interpretation of a divine text is heresy. She doesn't seem to care that an entire realm of study called theology has been devoted to interpretation. She mocks me when I repeat truisms such as Christianity and Islam being a religion of peace, for example. She is well-armed and reads a lot of Sam Harris (etc.) and cites verses from the texts and methods of interpretation. I am frustrated because anytime religion comes up even tangentially in conversation, she seems to always come back to the same overly simplified understanding of religion as an outmoded barbarism.
She's got you on a technicality. You can't actually address it without becoming the kind of crank she is.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:22 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by vitabellosi at 7:22 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well, the other day I heard this really interesting take on the phrase "Bless you," and it's totally got me thinking. Basically, Bless You could be phonetically re-interpreted as Be-Less You, since religion is about social control....
In short, I'm not sure why you care what your mom thinks about religion or belief unless she's directly hurting someone's feelings and making you a party to her actions. I'm pretty sure what your mom believes is none of your business.
You can try a combination of ignoring the subject, changing the subject, or simply ending any conversation and walking away if she engages in conversation you don't enjoy.
You are an adult, you don't have to participate. Likewise, she is an adult, and her beliefs are not there for you or anyone else to change as long as she's not actively hurting anyone.
Can you simply shut down the topic without debating? Agree to disagree, enjoy your relationship with your mom more, if possible.
posted by jbenben at 7:24 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
In short, I'm not sure why you care what your mom thinks about religion or belief unless she's directly hurting someone's feelings and making you a party to her actions. I'm pretty sure what your mom believes is none of your business.
You can try a combination of ignoring the subject, changing the subject, or simply ending any conversation and walking away if she engages in conversation you don't enjoy.
You are an adult, you don't have to participate. Likewise, she is an adult, and her beliefs are not there for you or anyone else to change as long as she's not actively hurting anyone.
Can you simply shut down the topic without debating? Agree to disagree, enjoy your relationship with your mom more, if possible.
posted by jbenben at 7:24 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is there any chance your mom used to be religious? Or otherwise have a religious-like devotion to some other lifestyle practice? Because usually I see the militantly atheist response only from people who had previously drunk some other flavor of kool-aid and are effectively using atheism as the new totem for their in-born proclivity for zealotry.
This can be a hard thing to convince someone of but is the best mode of attack in getting a militant atheist to ease the fuck up a bit. They pride themselves on being hyper rational, so you need to approach the problem by showing them how they're clinging to atheism in exactly the same way a (stupid, irrational) religious person clings to their (stupid, irrational) religion. I know it seems to go against your goal of wanting to get her to respect other religions, but in my experience, you have to shut down the impulse to be dogmatic about it by appealing to them in the language they already speak. (Source: have been an atheist since I was a small child. Had to talk down a fair number of obnoxious nouveau atheists as a teenager.)
Your goal right now needs to be to get your mom to stop being actively shitty towards other people in the name of her atheism. Save the respect religion argument for later.
If I were you I would stop, at least for now, trying to appeal to your mom by discussing the nuances of theology. Someone who has been burned in the past by people using the bible as a weapon just aren't going to be open to that approach. I mean, I like to think I'm a fairly reasonable person and pretty tolerant of other people's choices, but if you tried to bring up the "religion of peace" thing with me I would want to stop talking to you. The original tenets of a religion don't have a whole lot to do with the way that, for instance, evangelical Christianity is inflicted upon us today, and that argument just feels irrelevant and like it misses the point entirely.
If she seems receptive at some point in the future, I'd suggest that your mom read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. It's effectively a courtship book to get people to join the evangelical flock, but it does so not by preaching hate, but by basically explaining how Jesus was a socialist. It's a decent way to introduce her to the idea that religion isn't necessarily terrible.
posted by phunniemee at 7:25 PM on June 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
This can be a hard thing to convince someone of but is the best mode of attack in getting a militant atheist to ease the fuck up a bit. They pride themselves on being hyper rational, so you need to approach the problem by showing them how they're clinging to atheism in exactly the same way a (stupid, irrational) religious person clings to their (stupid, irrational) religion. I know it seems to go against your goal of wanting to get her to respect other religions, but in my experience, you have to shut down the impulse to be dogmatic about it by appealing to them in the language they already speak. (Source: have been an atheist since I was a small child. Had to talk down a fair number of obnoxious nouveau atheists as a teenager.)
Your goal right now needs to be to get your mom to stop being actively shitty towards other people in the name of her atheism. Save the respect religion argument for later.
If I were you I would stop, at least for now, trying to appeal to your mom by discussing the nuances of theology. Someone who has been burned in the past by people using the bible as a weapon just aren't going to be open to that approach. I mean, I like to think I'm a fairly reasonable person and pretty tolerant of other people's choices, but if you tried to bring up the "religion of peace" thing with me I would want to stop talking to you. The original tenets of a religion don't have a whole lot to do with the way that, for instance, evangelical Christianity is inflicted upon us today, and that argument just feels irrelevant and like it misses the point entirely.
If she seems receptive at some point in the future, I'd suggest that your mom read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. It's effectively a courtship book to get people to join the evangelical flock, but it does so not by preaching hate, but by basically explaining how Jesus was a socialist. It's a decent way to introduce her to the idea that religion isn't necessarily terrible.
posted by phunniemee at 7:25 PM on June 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
Rather than trying to approach this by convincing her of the legitimacy of other people's ideas, which you won't do, maybe try an appeal to courtesy and civility - "okay, fine, maybe you ARE right about religion, but that still doesn't give you the right to be a dick about it."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:26 PM on June 29, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:26 PM on June 29, 2015 [21 favorites]
Get her some readings about the backfire effect. Also point out that many phrases are pro forma "kindness" and it's rude and counter productive to respond to niceness with, well rudeness.
posted by sammyo at 7:27 PM on June 29, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 7:27 PM on June 29, 2015 [12 favorites]
I have a friend like this. I've told her that she's just as evangelical as any bible thumper I've ever seen. Because, really...that's what this behavior is. It's evangelism for atheism, and it's just as annoying from people who quote Harris as it is from people who quote Leviticus. It's also a fairly narcissistic way of dealing with the universe, like those people who get openly hostile when someone says Happy Holidays instead of Merry Xmas.
What I've learned, after years of living in the buckle of the bible belt, is that you cannot engage at all. At all.
posted by dejah420 at 7:29 PM on June 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
What I've learned, after years of living in the buckle of the bible belt, is that you cannot engage at all. At all.
posted by dejah420 at 7:29 PM on June 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'd be like, "I feel like you're missing out on a lot of interesting scholarship on the textual and archaeological history of the Bible, but if it upsets you, its definitely better if we don't talk about it."
Be like that once. After that memail me with interesting shit you want to discuss.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:30 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Be like that once. After that memail me with interesting shit you want to discuss.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:30 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Stop shitting on accepted social norms. You're not right, you're rude."
posted by fatbird at 7:36 PM on June 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 7:36 PM on June 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Give it a rest mom."
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:40 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:40 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: phunniemee, yes my mom used to be religious. She was raised in a hyper Catholic community and has been rightly traumatized by the experience . I am laughing at the term nouveau atheist
EmpressCallipygos and Sammyo- I have tried this approach, asking her to be less of a "dick" to people, saying that "bless you" is just a nicety, but she says that she's just being "logical" and she can "say what she believes" if they can "say what they believe." Frustration..
dejah420- I agree! She's an evangelical atheist and militant! Her facebook posts are filled with mean memes making fun of religious people.
Eyebrows McGee - I think that maybe us exchanging emails is a better way to engage, without the raised voices and defensiveness.
posted by jacobnayar at 7:41 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos and Sammyo- I have tried this approach, asking her to be less of a "dick" to people, saying that "bless you" is just a nicety, but she says that she's just being "logical" and she can "say what she believes" if they can "say what they believe." Frustration..
dejah420- I agree! She's an evangelical atheist and militant! Her facebook posts are filled with mean memes making fun of religious people.
Eyebrows McGee - I think that maybe us exchanging emails is a better way to engage, without the raised voices and defensiveness.
posted by jacobnayar at 7:41 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I like fatbird's approach, slightly modified: "You may be right, but you're rude." might work.
posted by Floydd at 7:45 PM on June 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Floydd at 7:45 PM on June 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
"Mom, when you preach atheism then you're as bad as the evangelicals. Also, religious belief seems to be hard-wired into most human brains and is probably part of the human condition. You and I have overcome that. Many more won't. Perhaps you should tone it down?"
posted by Brodiggitty at 7:46 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Brodiggitty at 7:46 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I wish I could just be quiet when she brings religion up, but she sneaks it into so many topics of conversation. You can sort of see her argument on the horizon from afar and I try to avoid it but sometimes I fall into her trap because she'll say something really ridiculous like: "Who were all the Nazis? They were all Christian before they became Nazis. It's a fact."* and then I try to say her implied logic (Christianity---> Nazism) is unfair or that the relationship between Nazis and Christianity is complex and then we fall down a rabbit hole.
* She doesn't seem to care about Godwin's law in arguments .
posted by jacobnayar at 7:47 PM on June 29, 2015
* She doesn't seem to care about Godwin's law in arguments .
posted by jacobnayar at 7:47 PM on June 29, 2015
"She was raised in a hyper Catholic community and has been rightly traumatized by the experience ."
Honestly - and I say this as a devout and well-educated Catholic - I don't know that you can reach her in this issue. The kind of trauma religious abuse can do is deep and long-lasting and she deserves to nurse her pain privately, without you intensifying it. She is speaking from a place of intense pain. You can't reason her out of it, nor am I sure you should try.
If you must discuss religion with her, be open, gentle, calm, and kind. Don't tell her she doesn't REALLY understand Catholicism - she does understand, she was abused by it. Try to be calm and kind and receptive about her anger. She has a right to it. People ARE abused in the name of faith. Telling them they were abused by shitty people may be true, but it doesn't help. Personally I trust that God will help them, and all that I can do is be calm and receptive - rather than aggressive - to try to model God's gentleness.
Your mom doesn't need to be told what Christians really believe. She needs to be able to vent her rage at someone who can be like a calm pond or a brick wall, who can understand and absorb it without reacting angrily.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on June 29, 2015 [24 favorites]
Honestly - and I say this as a devout and well-educated Catholic - I don't know that you can reach her in this issue. The kind of trauma religious abuse can do is deep and long-lasting and she deserves to nurse her pain privately, without you intensifying it. She is speaking from a place of intense pain. You can't reason her out of it, nor am I sure you should try.
If you must discuss religion with her, be open, gentle, calm, and kind. Don't tell her she doesn't REALLY understand Catholicism - she does understand, she was abused by it. Try to be calm and kind and receptive about her anger. She has a right to it. People ARE abused in the name of faith. Telling them they were abused by shitty people may be true, but it doesn't help. Personally I trust that God will help them, and all that I can do is be calm and receptive - rather than aggressive - to try to model God's gentleness.
Your mom doesn't need to be told what Christians really believe. She needs to be able to vent her rage at someone who can be like a calm pond or a brick wall, who can understand and absorb it without reacting angrily.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on June 29, 2015 [24 favorites]
"Bless you" isn't religious, it's manners. I'm an atheist and use the term interchangeably with its Hebrew counterpart "labriyut" which just means "to your health."
Ayway, pick your battles. There's no reason you need to debate her on the Nazi question (and in fact European antisemitism does indeed have its roots in Catholic practice, although that's a longer view of history than her analysis is offering.) But it's fine to tell her that she's tilting at windmills and being deliberately obtuse if she is attacking people who are acknowledging her sneeze with a pleasantry.
Honestly I think your best bet is to offer limited agreement. "People do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify being shitty to each other, don't they? It's a shame they don't take the same trouble to find reasons to be kind" is a true thing to say that may defuse her need to argue. Maybe the appeal to plain old kindness will help with the "bless you" issue too.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ayway, pick your battles. There's no reason you need to debate her on the Nazi question (and in fact European antisemitism does indeed have its roots in Catholic practice, although that's a longer view of history than her analysis is offering.) But it's fine to tell her that she's tilting at windmills and being deliberately obtuse if she is attacking people who are acknowledging her sneeze with a pleasantry.
Honestly I think your best bet is to offer limited agreement. "People do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify being shitty to each other, don't they? It's a shame they don't take the same trouble to find reasons to be kind" is a true thing to say that may defuse her need to argue. Maybe the appeal to plain old kindness will help with the "bless you" issue too.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos and Sammyo- I have tried this approach, asking her to be less of a "dick" to people, saying that "bless you" is just a nicety, but she says that she's just being "logical" and she can "say what she believes" if they can "say what they believe." Frustration..
It may be time to escalate, then, to "Mom, that kind of behavior is just plain unpleasant for me to be around. I'm going to leave now/hang up now/etc. and I'll see you later when you've calmed down." Or, if you really wanna get feisty, then try "okay, I'll say what I believe too - and what I believe is that it's nasty when you do this. I'm gonna go."
You know? Rather than trying to convince her she's right, just give her behavior consequences.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
It may be time to escalate, then, to "Mom, that kind of behavior is just plain unpleasant for me to be around. I'm going to leave now/hang up now/etc. and I'll see you later when you've calmed down." Or, if you really wanna get feisty, then try "okay, I'll say what I believe too - and what I believe is that it's nasty when you do this. I'm gonna go."
You know? Rather than trying to convince her she's right, just give her behavior consequences.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: "Oh mom, let's not talk about religion right now. I'd much rather discuss something happier/exciting like..."
"It's a shame even as atheists, religion affects so much of our world so negatively, I think I'd rather make my time and conversations with you positive. Have you heard about ...?"
"Mom, I'm already an atheist, you don't have to convert me. Thanks for raising me as a free thinker. Speaking of thinking, what do you honk about....?"
Also, all all the meme posts click the triangle in the upper right corner. Click on the one that's like "I don't want to see posts like this" and supposedly Facebook learns and will just automagically not have similar things appear on your news feed.
You aren't responsible for what her friends think of her. If they're annoyed, they can tell her themselves.
posted by HMSSM at 8:00 PM on June 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
"It's a shame even as atheists, religion affects so much of our world so negatively, I think I'd rather make my time and conversations with you positive. Have you heard about ...?"
"Mom, I'm already an atheist, you don't have to convert me. Thanks for raising me as a free thinker. Speaking of thinking, what do you honk about....?"
Also, all all the meme posts click the triangle in the upper right corner. Click on the one that's like "I don't want to see posts like this" and supposedly Facebook learns and will just automagically not have similar things appear on your news feed.
You aren't responsible for what her friends think of her. If they're annoyed, they can tell her themselves.
posted by HMSSM at 8:00 PM on June 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
There's really no problem with what she believes except where, and if, it's doing damage to her relationships.
she says that she's just being "logical" and she can "say what she believes" if they can "say what they believe." Frustration..
...so, the only place it really makes any sense to engage her is here. Of course, your mom is definitely free to say what she believes. But it's not a value-free, neutral act. By introducing her point of view on religion into conversations where it isn't germane, she's shifting the focus onto herself and inviting argument. Does she really want to do this? Does this give her satisfaction? Does it drive a wedge between her and others? Does it place on others a burden to work around her emotionally and in their speech? These are things I think most people concerned with good relationships will take seriously, regardless of whether the other is "wrong" in their orientation.
I agree that you don't have to be responsible for that. People know the difference between you and her. You may never convince your mother to conceive of religious belief differently, but if in her outward expression she is, essentially, bullying people by dominating and steering conversation, rudely rejecting kind overtures, and insisting on making a scene, there's something other than belief systems going on. It may be hard for her to separate these things, but you're right that choices about what to believe and how to behave are separate choices.
posted by Miko at 8:00 PM on June 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
she says that she's just being "logical" and she can "say what she believes" if they can "say what they believe." Frustration..
...so, the only place it really makes any sense to engage her is here. Of course, your mom is definitely free to say what she believes. But it's not a value-free, neutral act. By introducing her point of view on religion into conversations where it isn't germane, she's shifting the focus onto herself and inviting argument. Does she really want to do this? Does this give her satisfaction? Does it drive a wedge between her and others? Does it place on others a burden to work around her emotionally and in their speech? These are things I think most people concerned with good relationships will take seriously, regardless of whether the other is "wrong" in their orientation.
I agree that you don't have to be responsible for that. People know the difference between you and her. You may never convince your mother to conceive of religious belief differently, but if in her outward expression she is, essentially, bullying people by dominating and steering conversation, rudely rejecting kind overtures, and insisting on making a scene, there's something other than belief systems going on. It may be hard for her to separate these things, but you're right that choices about what to believe and how to behave are separate choices.
posted by Miko at 8:00 PM on June 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Bless you" isn't religious, it's manners.
You obviously don't live in Texas.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:01 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
You obviously don't live in Texas.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:01 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I want to take back "bullying," it's too strong a word and I'm sure she thinks of it more as standing up for herself, but maybe something like "calling attention to the issue" or "commanding the terms of interaction" would do.
posted by Miko at 8:02 PM on June 29, 2015
posted by Miko at 8:02 PM on June 29, 2015
"Mom, there are worse things than being religious, one of them is being self-righteous."
posted by Marky at 8:21 PM on June 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Marky at 8:21 PM on June 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
You might consider sometimes briefly pointing out to her how her reading of religion has quite a bit in common with rigid fundamentalist readings. Sure, she rejects the truth of that religious fundamentalism, but I'd think it'd give any self-styled rational thinker pause that the frames of her questions and their questions are the same.
"Any re-interpretation of a divine text is heresy."
"That's what the fundamentalists say, anyway."
But...
She was raised in a hyper Catholic community and has been rightly traumatized by the experience .
This really puts the antipathy and the refusal to admit subtlety to the discussion in a different light. As much as I've seen phunimee's zealotry-totem thing play out, to the extent that there's real trauma and even abuse here she may *need* the antitheist position to feel safe from the grip of the former theism in some way. If that's true, maybe finding some other way to help her feel safe would make a difference.
posted by weston at 8:47 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Any re-interpretation of a divine text is heresy."
"That's what the fundamentalists say, anyway."
But...
She was raised in a hyper Catholic community and has been rightly traumatized by the experience .
This really puts the antipathy and the refusal to admit subtlety to the discussion in a different light. As much as I've seen phunimee's zealotry-totem thing play out, to the extent that there's real trauma and even abuse here she may *need* the antitheist position to feel safe from the grip of the former theism in some way. If that's true, maybe finding some other way to help her feel safe would make a difference.
posted by weston at 8:47 PM on June 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Speaking as a pretty orthodox religious person I would still say avoid engaging whenever possible. The best way to deal with someone who's "well armed" on a particular topic is to not agree to the duel.
On the religious side of things you get the same single-issue-debaters in forums and friend groups—young-earth creationists, for instance. And a lot of the time your options reduce to "allow every conversation with this person to devolve into a debate about inerrancy" or "ignore the argument bait ("I don't really take a lot of what scientists say at face value, given...") even when it hurts to do so and be friends with a person you otherwise like and have a lot in common with."
Since this is your mom I think the second option is both a little harder to do—because you're in contact frequently and the stakes probably feel raised for her—and even more worth doing.
posted by Polycarp at 8:57 PM on June 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
On the religious side of things you get the same single-issue-debaters in forums and friend groups—young-earth creationists, for instance. And a lot of the time your options reduce to "allow every conversation with this person to devolve into a debate about inerrancy" or "ignore the argument bait ("I don't really take a lot of what scientists say at face value, given...") even when it hurts to do so and be friends with a person you otherwise like and have a lot in common with."
Since this is your mom I think the second option is both a little harder to do—because you're in contact frequently and the stakes probably feel raised for her—and even more worth doing.
posted by Polycarp at 8:57 PM on June 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: using atheism as the new totem for their in-born proclivity for zealotry
It's evangelism for atheism
Yeah, I've taken to using the term, athiestvangelist, to describe adherents to this mindset. It's particularly frustrating to debate, because it's an intense form of belief that rests on an illusory stance of principled disbelief. (Moderate atheists, agnostics, and the majority of religious people tend to be more open to uncertainty; even religious fundamentalists have the advantage of putting things they don't want to deal with in the "faith" box.) There's absolutism and fervor, yet these traits can't be recognized because recognizing them means that one isn't acting rationally, which means that one isn't atheisming correctly.
Accordingly, I've personally had about 0% success trying to use logic to prick this balloon. This includes the seemingly foolproof method of showing the similarity between someone's statements and the statements of a typical religious fundamentalist. I mean, it feels like it should work, but it exposes an untenable hypocrisy: The cognitive dissonance is too threatening. CAVEAT, though: I've never had the opportunity to do this face-to-face with someone who trusts my motives, as opposed to on the internet where the person assumes I'm just trying to score points. Your mileage may vary IRL, i.e. with your mom.
How does one engage respectfully
I'd suggest reframing this slightly. Instead of respectfully, maybe try lovingly or patiently. My feeling is that -- for many people -- this sort of aggression/dogmatism is a phase. As she gets further from the pain of her previous experience, your mom may mellow out a bit. Meanwhile, when she behaves in a way that legitimately embarrasses you or hurts you, say so. When you observe her offending others, point that out. Don't accept a "well, they do it too, they've been doing it for thousands of years" type response, keep things focused in that moment and how it impacts the real people involved:
"Mom, the way you spoke to Ms. Taylor yesterday really embarrassed me. I get that you felt her 'Merry Christmas' was presumptive, but I have to work with her on the Parks Board and I don't need the waters muddied."
Don't make it an abstract debate, stay in the realm of the specific and the personal. This may require going past respectful, but it can still be fair.
posted by credible hulk at 9:55 PM on June 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's evangelism for atheism
Yeah, I've taken to using the term, athiestvangelist, to describe adherents to this mindset. It's particularly frustrating to debate, because it's an intense form of belief that rests on an illusory stance of principled disbelief. (Moderate atheists, agnostics, and the majority of religious people tend to be more open to uncertainty; even religious fundamentalists have the advantage of putting things they don't want to deal with in the "faith" box.) There's absolutism and fervor, yet these traits can't be recognized because recognizing them means that one isn't acting rationally, which means that one isn't atheisming correctly.
Accordingly, I've personally had about 0% success trying to use logic to prick this balloon. This includes the seemingly foolproof method of showing the similarity between someone's statements and the statements of a typical religious fundamentalist. I mean, it feels like it should work, but it exposes an untenable hypocrisy: The cognitive dissonance is too threatening. CAVEAT, though: I've never had the opportunity to do this face-to-face with someone who trusts my motives, as opposed to on the internet where the person assumes I'm just trying to score points. Your mileage may vary IRL, i.e. with your mom.
How does one engage respectfully
I'd suggest reframing this slightly. Instead of respectfully, maybe try lovingly or patiently. My feeling is that -- for many people -- this sort of aggression/dogmatism is a phase. As she gets further from the pain of her previous experience, your mom may mellow out a bit. Meanwhile, when she behaves in a way that legitimately embarrasses you or hurts you, say so. When you observe her offending others, point that out. Don't accept a "well, they do it too, they've been doing it for thousands of years" type response, keep things focused in that moment and how it impacts the real people involved:
"Mom, the way you spoke to Ms. Taylor yesterday really embarrassed me. I get that you felt her 'Merry Christmas' was presumptive, but I have to work with her on the Parks Board and I don't need the waters muddied."
Don't make it an abstract debate, stay in the realm of the specific and the personal. This may require going past respectful, but it can still be fair.
posted by credible hulk at 9:55 PM on June 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
Could recalling a time when you felt good about yourself make you more broad-minded about highly politicized issues, like the Iraq surge or global warming? As it turns out, it would. (From the New Yorker article linked in Sammyo's comment.)
Your mom doesn't need to be told what Christians really believe. She needs to be able to vent her rage at someone who can be like a calm pond or a brick wall, who can understand and absorb it without reacting angrily.
Maybe it would help to try shifting the topic to her own experience (and thereby also shift from subtext to text). "Yeah, religion can really mess people up. You were cool though, you got out of it. Tell me that story again."
posted by feral_goldfish at 10:00 PM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your mom doesn't need to be told what Christians really believe. She needs to be able to vent her rage at someone who can be like a calm pond or a brick wall, who can understand and absorb it without reacting angrily.
Maybe it would help to try shifting the topic to her own experience (and thereby also shift from subtext to text). "Yeah, religion can really mess people up. You were cool though, you got out of it. Tell me that story again."
posted by feral_goldfish at 10:00 PM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Phil Plait's "Don't Be A Dick" speech from a few years ago is pretty good.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 10:45 PM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 10:45 PM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
How long has it been since she became atheist? For some of us, this is a period of grief and self-defence in the first years of post-religious recovery. Others never move on from this stage.
posted by heatherann at 5:22 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by heatherann at 5:22 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I might just go, "Oh my god, this again?!?! I am SO BORED of talking about religion!!!!" As loudly and as obnoxiously as possible until she shuts up. Sometimes there is no other way of getting through to someone with a hobby horse.
If you don't have that kind of relationship with your mom I agree that telling her you will leave/end the conversation if she starts to go on about religion, then doing so, would work the same. Not as viscerally satisfying, but hey.
posted by chainsofreedom at 5:54 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you don't have that kind of relationship with your mom I agree that telling her you will leave/end the conversation if she starts to go on about religion, then doing so, would work the same. Not as viscerally satisfying, but hey.
posted by chainsofreedom at 5:54 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nobody is as righteously anti-smoking as an ex-smoker. That's your mom.
I too am an atheist and I hate the very idea of religion, but to even talk about it gives it some kind of importance, which I refuse to do. You might point out to your mom that the energy she puts into her anti-relig arguments not only drains her own good energy, but gives the thing she hates some status.
posted by BostonTerrier at 6:25 AM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I too am an atheist and I hate the very idea of religion, but to even talk about it gives it some kind of importance, which I refuse to do. You might point out to your mom that the energy she puts into her anti-relig arguments not only drains her own good energy, but gives the thing she hates some status.
posted by BostonTerrier at 6:25 AM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Alain de Botton's book Religion for Atheists (relevant TedTalk) might be useful for you to read/watch/share with your mother.
posted by rubyrudy at 3:05 PM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rubyrudy at 3:05 PM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Hey mom, if you keep on being snotty (har har) to people saying 'Bless you' when you sneeze, you soon won't have any friends left!" (Seriously, if I said "bless you" to a sneeze and got a glare or sarcastic comment back, I'd write that person off as someone I don't want to be around if I can help it.)
Don't try to debate her beliefs, because that is like wading through quicksand - the more you struggle, the faster you'll get pulled in. Rather, just call her on her rudeness when it's directed at you (or your loved ones or friends). "Mom, that wasn't called for. I don't want to get into a religious debate with you - I just want to enjoy the dinner/farmer's market/hike/what have you." And if she keeps on being rude, leave. "Bye, mom. I'm not coming back until you can talk to me without shouting/being sarcastic or nasty."
Is your mom open to therapy? I can understand her anger at her upbringing - in fact, I think anger is a necessary stage to go through, but it's not healthy to take it out on others. Therapy would be a better container for her anger. Your mom risks driving everyone away from her except those obligated to endure her company, and that's an unhappy life to live.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:31 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't try to debate her beliefs, because that is like wading through quicksand - the more you struggle, the faster you'll get pulled in. Rather, just call her on her rudeness when it's directed at you (or your loved ones or friends). "Mom, that wasn't called for. I don't want to get into a religious debate with you - I just want to enjoy the dinner/farmer's market/hike/what have you." And if she keeps on being rude, leave. "Bye, mom. I'm not coming back until you can talk to me without shouting/being sarcastic or nasty."
Is your mom open to therapy? I can understand her anger at her upbringing - in fact, I think anger is a necessary stage to go through, but it's not healthy to take it out on others. Therapy would be a better container for her anger. Your mom risks driving everyone away from her except those obligated to endure her company, and that's an unhappy life to live.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:31 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Another vote here for, just don't engage. Whenever she drags the conversation back around to religion, simply stay quiet for a long awkward silence, then resume the conversation as if she never said anything. Do this EVERY time she gets on her hobbyhorse, without fail.
And if you just can't take it, if you're really, really tempted to respond to her goading, walk away. Literally get up, tell her you have to go do x, and leave the room or even the house. If you're on the phone with her, tell her you'll talk to her later and hang up. The idea is to retrain her and never reward her bad behavior.
posted by easily confused at 4:55 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
And if you just can't take it, if you're really, really tempted to respond to her goading, walk away. Literally get up, tell her you have to go do x, and leave the room or even the house. If you're on the phone with her, tell her you'll talk to her later and hang up. The idea is to retrain her and never reward her bad behavior.
posted by easily confused at 4:55 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
How does one engage respectfully
With a nod to Credible Hulk, I suggest the advice of the character Cheryl Strayed's mother in "Wild"; Do the kindest thing you can do. Beyond that I support all the analysis and self care advice of every poster here.
posted by Jim_Jam at 8:48 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
With a nod to Credible Hulk, I suggest the advice of the character Cheryl Strayed's mother in "Wild"; Do the kindest thing you can do. Beyond that I support all the analysis and self care advice of every poster here.
posted by Jim_Jam at 8:48 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: How long has it been since she became atheist? For some of us, this is a period of grief and self-defence in the first years of post-religious recovery. Others never move on from this stage.
HeatherAnn: good point. She's been an atheist for about 5 years now. I do think that she needs more time to process, and as Rosie M. Banks suggests, therapy could help.
Easily Confused: this is very good pragmatic information. It's what I've been doing the past week (I'm home for a short spell) and it's worked pretty well. Retrain!
Thank you so much everyone for the very helpful responses.
posted by jacobnayar at 9:22 PM on July 4, 2015
HeatherAnn: good point. She's been an atheist for about 5 years now. I do think that she needs more time to process, and as Rosie M. Banks suggests, therapy could help.
Easily Confused: this is very good pragmatic information. It's what I've been doing the past week (I'm home for a short spell) and it's worked pretty well. Retrain!
Thank you so much everyone for the very helpful responses.
posted by jacobnayar at 9:22 PM on July 4, 2015
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