How can we find out if there were violations for construction?
June 12, 2015 3:41 PM   Subscribe

I'm currently living in a building where sound travels immensely.

I think most people who live in apartments know what it's like to hear your neighbors kids running upstairs and what not. But this is the first building I've lived in where you can hear their CONVERSATIONS too. I know when my next door neighbor has turned on her sink because I can hear the sound of her turning on the faucet. Showers and plumbing can all be heard. Even when my upstairs neighbor slides open her window curtain I can hear it!

The walls are obviously paper. I've never experienced anything like this and I've lived in a lot of apartments. Usually we just ignore the noise because we know our neighbors are just doing normal things that we shouldn't be able to really hear anyway. Is it possible that corners were cut during construction of the building? If so how can we find out?
posted by rancher to Home & Garden (9 answers total)
 
Sound naturally travels through plumbing. There are a lot of things that builders can do to reduce the noise between apartments, but not every apartment complex is going to be designed with a comprehensive set of noise abatement features. Those features add substantial cost!

I once lived in an eight unit (four units per floor, two story) that had a cinder block partition in a cross shape as part of the core structure. It was virtually impossible to hear what was happening in the adjoining apartments, but some sound could be heard if the tenants immediately below were being very loud, because the floor was wood-on-joist with sound deadening insulation.

Another building I lived in had no appreciable measures to control sound. It was essentially built very similarly to a 1950's residential house, again two story, but nothing in the walls to deaden sound, nothing in the floor to deaden sound. You could hear everything.

It is certainly possible that "corners were cut," but it is not clear that any code-violating corners were cut. What sort of heating and cooling system is used? How old is the building? What climate are you in?
posted by jgreco at 3:54 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


What sort of heating and cooling system is used?

I also suspect the HVAC, especially considering your comment about hearing the upstairs neighbor's curtains. Even if the walls are "obviously paper" (which, really, they're actually probably 2 sheets of drywall at least, even if they didn't use any insulation), the ceilings and floors can't be. Unless the ceilings are literally falling in, you have like 2 inches of floorboard, 10-12" of studs (and hopefully insulation again), a ceiling deck, and several more inches of cosmetic ceiling work. Usually even thin, uninsulated ceilings only convey footsteps and similar sounds, not conversation or curtain shuffling.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 4:07 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


You can look at the applicable building codes and check most things out. If you pull out an outlet you can easily check drywall thickness and stud dimensions. A stud finder will tell you the spacing of studs and joists. You'll need to know when the building was built to look up the right code.

I'd be somewhat surprised if you find code violations, though. The inspectors, at least around here, are sticklers.
posted by ftm at 4:11 PM on June 12, 2015


When was your building built, and where are you located? Some newer codes require STC (Sound Transmission Class) ratings between units:

Sound Transmission Class: "Section 1207 of International Building Code 2006 states that separation between dwelling units and between dwelling units and public and service areas must achieve STC 50 (STC 45 if field tested) for both airborne and structure-borne. However, not all jurisdictions use the IBC 2006 for their building or municipal code. In jurisdictions where IBC 2006 is used, this requirement may not apply to all dwelling units. For example, a building conversion may not need to meet this rating for all walls."

But if your building was built before then, or if your local building code doesn't follow the IBC (which it very most probably might not), then you might be out of luck.

But also. Do you have any literal holes in your partitions? The difference between a thin wall with a small hole, and a thin wall that's fully sealed is pretty huge. It's sometimes helpful to visualize sound like water, in which a lot of leakage can happen through even a tiny hole, while blocking the hole will stop the leakage by a great degree.
posted by suedehead at 4:56 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


We hear conversations, sneezes, farts, the sink and shower and toilet, etc. As others have suggested, these sounds come through plumbing and vents.

It's the worst, but I don't think you'll be able to do much about it.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 5:46 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Short answer: no, probably not. Unless your building was built recently, it's going to be difficult to track down the code applicable at the time of construction. It may well not meet current standards, but building owners are not required to change their buildings every time the building codes change.

Another piece of information for you is that we followed all applicable codes, thinking that was good enough, and you STILL can hear far too much. :/ Not quite as much as your situation, however. Sorry and good luck.
posted by slidell at 8:07 PM on June 12, 2015


Response by poster: I found out the building was built in 1999.. so not too long ago. The heating and cooling system is like a beige metal square thing with vents by the window and it has a control knob that says Hi Cool/ Lo Cool/ Fan/Warm etc, etc.
posted by rancher at 8:32 PM on June 12, 2015


Sounds like you don't have forced-air heating then (no vents or ducts?), so sound isn't traveling through ductwork.

It could be that your interior walls are built without insulation in them; insulation can increase the STC rating a great deal.

I've also heard horror stories about walls being built out of two layers of drywall (without any studs in between!), barely 1-1/4" thick, so that if you drilled a hole into the wall, you would be able to see into the neighboring apartment. I mean, that's not the case for you... right?
posted by suedehead at 8:52 PM on June 12, 2015


Sounds like your heat/cool system is a Package Terminal Air Conditioning (PTAC) unit, so you're right, it's not the HVAC. Is there any other ducting (maybe in the bathroom or kitchen for exhaust fans)?

1999 is ages ago in terms of building construction (16 years!) so I doubt you'd have any recourse against whoever built the place originally.

If you want to look at the original plans, and you're in the US, most local building departments will be pretty nice about showing you what (if anything) they have on file and having a building inspector look through it with you.

Note that 16 years is old enough that many states will let them shred their records, though. GA only requires them to store records for 7. So whether you find anything or not will really depend. Also some big cities probably won't be very helpful, since they don't have time. But if you're in the burbs, it might be worth trying.

Is this a condo or an apartment? If it's a condo you could go to the board -- I'm sure this is a known problem.
posted by pie ninja at 6:04 AM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


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