Do I need to leave this job I love?
June 5, 2015 11:23 PM   Subscribe

I think my supervisor is misogynist, narcissist, possible sociopath. Other than him, my job is great. I have worked at this job for nearly a decade. It has always been an issue, but I seen to have reached my tipping point. More inside on the reasons to stay or go and examples of behavior I just can't stand anymore.

Reasons to stay: I love what I do. I am really well compensated including great employer matched 401K and all around great benefits. Flexible schedule for a working mother with young kids. I really like nearly all my other colleagues. I only need to see him 8-16 hours per week. The rest of communication is via email which is fine.

Reasons to go: I have seen him drive out 7 other smart, strong women. These women have been open with me regarding their reason for leaving. It is a male dominated academic institution. I have been told HR will not help. A colleague of mine who works with my supervisor's boss spoke to his boss about me. She did this without asking me BTW. That person said he didn't want to get involved in my "domestic issues" with my supervisor. My supervisor's peers tell me I should move on.

Examples:
Spoke about me in the third person, in front of me, to a group of consultants (6 people), said he has to be careful as I am "emotionally fragile." I responded that actually, no, I am fine, but didn't tell him never to do that again.
He warned me that my boys, who are white and have every advantage in life, are actually so disadvantaged now that people of color and women get unearned, preferential treatment. He actually said this, in all seriousness. He says he knows from his experience with his sons. He also has a daughter.
He treats people differently that have money, especially old money. He encourages me to do the same, to which I always say no, not gonna happen.
I could go on and on, but I hope this gives an idea.

I am interviewing for other jobs.
As a woman and a feminist, I feel that no man should be able to drive me out of a job I love. As a woman and a feminist, I feel that I can't stay at this job.
Tips for working with such a personality also welcome.
posted by anonymous to Work & Money (20 answers total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
There's nothing wrong with looking for work elsewhere, but I would maybe suggest that there's some signs of hope here: although he did it in front of other people, his behavior indicates he is at least aware that he is on some level supposed to be more respectful of your opinions and feelings.

To me this is a foundation that can be built on.

You wrote you only had to see him 8-16 hours a week. What happens during that time? Is there a way to structure those interactions so that the unpleasant parts are avoided?
posted by atchafalaya at 1:30 AM on June 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


A flexible work schedule that allows you control over your time with your kids; great compensation; loving what you do... in total, this is a package that's pretty hard to come by, even with a boss who believes the awful things yours does, and speaks his mind.

If the boss were really systematically attacking you or really out to sabotage you personally, it would be one thing. But this just a person you have to share space with, and there are many such people in the world; it's not personal, it's not really aimed at you in a pattern of attack, despite the "emotionally fragile" comment -- which you handled well by speaking up for yourself at the moment of its occurrence. I didn't see anything in your examples that sounded sociopathic; he just sounded like someone with values that are abhorrent to you, and an insensitivity about directing his lovely pearls of wisdom in inappropriate ways. I know people like this (patriarchal, chimerical, pompous or bizarrely outrageous) in administrative positions in academia, and there is *always* someone with an irritating, difficult, or enraging -- even sexist or racist -- personality at any workplace at all. And often you're going to be around them a lot more than half the work week. Even if the enraging person is just a peer colleague next time -- as you might notice in lots of other askmes -- it's often impossible to avoid.

Basically there is rarely a way to guarantee you won't have to deal with unpleasant people at work, and to me, the job's benefits to your overall life here are so great that it would be worth your while to change not your job but your attitude towards supervisor. In your shoes I'd try to see him as a flawed, irritating but ultimately harmless idiot and inwardly roll my eyes at his anachronistic gaffs and odious beliefs while continuing to speak up and calmly correct them at the moment they occur.
posted by third rail at 2:24 AM on June 6, 2015 [22 favorites]


I think my supervisor is misogynist, narcissist, possible sociopath.

As a woman and a feminist, I feel that no man should be able to ...

He sounds like a piece of work, but the labels you're applying to him (which seem a bit over-the-top) and to yourself (which sound simplistic and confining) seem to be trapping you in resentment and misery. You aren't in danger of losing your Feminist membership card if you can't punish this man or make him behave, or if you choose to leave for some more-pleasant environment.

Tips for working with such a personality also welcome.

The problem can probably be made smaller if you can direct your own thoughts away from this guy's personal distastefulness and instead focus on things you can actually make headway against, e.g. whatever project you're working on. He will continue to say repellant things, though, so you'll need to find some new ways of reacting to those things.

Consider why he's dishing out these ugly ideas. My guess is that he feels threatened on some level by the fact that so many people consider the privileges he's taken for granted for most of his life, and the ideas that justify those privileges, to be anachronistic and ugly. He's not looking for an intellectual discussion on any of these topics, and he's not really trying to help you by dispensing wisdom; he's looking for validation and a sense of power. If he can irritate you or spur you to argue with him, that gives him comfort and reassures him that he's still relevant. Your complaining about him to HR or to his peers, none of whom can do anything for you, also makes him feel good, so of course he's going to keep prodding you. Your frustration feels good to him. That's why he keeps doing this stuff, and knowing it is why you should stop being surprised and shocked by it.

Not being shocked by it anymore opens up new possibilities for how you can react. You might be able to employ the occasional sarcastic quip:
BOSS: "Your boys are terribly disadvantaged now that people of color and women get unearned, preferential treatment. "

YOU: "Oh, I know! Middle-class white men have it so hard nowadays!"
Because of course he's not emotionally fragile. He's tough. He can take it. He said so!

The best thing, though, is to just ignore these this crap that he periodically regurgitates. He's looking for a reactions. Saying nothing, and patiently waiting for his little sidebar to end so you can get back to work, has the best chance of getting him to stop, and is the best revenge.
posted by jon1270 at 3:58 AM on June 6, 2015 [22 favorites]


If you do decide to talk to someone about it be careful the kind of language you use. He may be all the things you mention, but you need to focus on what he does and not who he is. The examples you give here are annoying, but not actionable.

You mentioned academia, is the person in question tenured? If so, then maybe moving on is the best advice. The advice I would normally give in this situation would be to share with one of his peers who you trust, but if you have already done that and the response is not hopeful for change, then I'm not sure how much more you can do. I almost never recommend trusting HR unless you have clear documented actionable behaviour (i.e., you can prove that their risk of embarrassment is higher if they protect the guy in question) and you think you would have support from the manager's peers.

I would probably interview elsewhere too, because I couldn't trust myself to suck it up with that kind of boss. Best of luck.
posted by frumiousb at 4:30 AM on June 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


This guy would drive me batty too. But, having worked in academia, I feel as if there is always someone like that and I agree with third rail that it doesn't sound like he is actually going after you, trying to get you fired or jeopardizing your well being on a concrete level. In fact, it sounds like you have found a way to stick up for yourself verbally and you're handling it really well. (Unless I am missing something where he tried to punish you for, e.g., not treating the old money people differently.) In academia you are always trapped with someone and very often it is someone who appears nice but is sucking the professional life out of you. This guy is blatantly awful but it seems like you have the problem contained. When you have one of these conversations in which you respond, "Nope, not going to happen," or similar, throw yourself a little parade in your mind! You're doing great.

There is nothing wrong with interviewing for other jobs, of course. If you see a better one, go. Other people have left your workplace because of this guy, so it's not just you. Although, I think there is an effect where people leave and when they talk about it to co-workers, they mention a boss as a reason, when in fact it was a combination of things that made them leave. The boss is what they have in common with you, so that is what they mention. But that was not really a sufficient cause for them leaving.
posted by BibiRose at 5:31 AM on June 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


Your supervisor does sound like a piece of ... work. But I feel that, if we're looking for ways in which your work environment may be toxic, we should be looking at your "helpful" coworkers. You've approached them for advice on how to improve your situation, and all they seem to have done is discourage you from risking any improvement.

Other than administering your generous benefits and helping you to stay engaged (as needed), HR's very purpose is to help when these sorts of situations become untenable. A modern HR department exists to communicate the concerns of employees to management and vice versa, so that the work environment is healthy and productive.

I understand that it's kinda-scary to take a big "official" step toward rocking the boat, such as speaking to HR about this problem. Few people enjoy engaging with problems so directly; it's much safer to put up with irritations than to confront them (with consequences). I say this as someone who has avoided dealing with way more interpersonal conflicts than he has resolved. So, ask yourself: Is this something you can't morally allow to stand, or is it just a good excuse to leave a job you're tired of?

Go to HR about this, if it really bothers you. If you had a coworker whose duties included getting you certain files by certain deadlines, you'd expect them to do that. You wouldn't let them slide because you'd heard they just didn't get people files on time, right? This sort of thing is like, HR's "you had one job." Assume that they will do it.

Document your supervisor's dumb comments, and your responses, as best you can. Take that information to HR, and present it in a matter of fact manner. Don't downplay how rotten it makes you feel, obviously, but remain professional (i.e. avoid armchair analysis of his mental state or intent). It may not ultimately help; your coworkers' assessment of HR may be accurate. If that's the case, then you know you've done your best to resolve your personal conflict with this person, as well as helping to prevent his future bad behavior towards someone else, and you can rest easier while you look for something better.
posted by credible hulk at 5:59 AM on June 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


If you find a better position elsewhere because you didn't want to work for this guy, you win and it's their loss, and their fault for not being able to retain talent. Keep looking for a new job, but don't settle for one that makes you feel like you lost something in the trade. A lateral move or a move up is you winning. You have the right to work wherever you're happy.

If they ask you why you're leaving, tell them you don't want to work for dickhead any more and have found something better. I've made 2 job moves in the last year, & it was the right decision each time.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:21 AM on June 6, 2015


You aren't in danger of losing your Feminist membership card if you can't punish this man or make him behave, or if you choose to leave for some more-pleasant environment.

This. It might help to keep in mind that the misogyny is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. My boss's boss, our VP, is a woman and a fucking asshole. She screams at people for not reading her mind and calls them stupid, makes us babysit her useless 26-year-old son, brings in useless friends for other management positions, and a million other things. Dealing with sociopathy requires specific coping techniques, and the sexist comments, as others have said, are only there to provoke. If it isn't sexism, it would be something else.
posted by sockerpup at 6:38 AM on June 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


I think my supervisor is misogynist, narcissist, possible sociopath.

You gave a couple of examples, but it is hard to say what he is really like from your description.

You gave a couple of examples, but those could be congruent with a tone-deaf, sometimes patronizing but otherwise well-meaning, if difficult, older gentleman.
... Or he could be a psychopath/sociopath, i.e. someone who does not feel empathy, is manipulative and has a big black hole where other people have their soul.

In the latter case, I'd usually say run away screaming, but then again, you have been at this job for almost 10 years already.
posted by sour cream at 7:14 AM on June 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


You can't depose the king. That's why seven other women have been driven out of the job. He'll never leave short of retirement. To quote Ask A Manager, "Your boss sucks and isn't going to change."

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. Should you stay or should you go? Well, as far as I can tell from your post, "other than him, your job is great." You only put up with him for about 2 days worth of time (which is great for dealing with anybody!) and it's a flexible schedule, which is practically miraculous for moms and maybe not something you can get if you move. I'm a believer in the price you pay to have something or someone in your life--is what I'm getting from this worth it to me to put up with this person's crap-- and this guy is the price you are paying to have the rest of your work life be cushy. As BibiRose said, it sounds like you've kind of got it down as to how to deal with/manage him. You say you've reached your tipping point, but I don't really see in this post why or what did it or how you are at the point of "NO MORE, I MUST GO." Yeah, he sounds like an ass, but other than "he drove out seven other women and I think I'm #8 and there's no way he'll ever leave or change," what changed for you? How has this become intolerable? I guess I'm just trying to figure out how at the end of your rope you are as to whether or not you want us to say GO GO GO or "well, he's got fifteen years until he retires, right?"

Well, anyway, whether you leave or not usually depends on whether or not you can get another job offer, and then you'll need to compare if whatever other things it's missing are worth losing at this job in order to avoid him. Until that happens, this is all kind of pie in the sky discussion anyway. But if you're asking that it pisses you off as a feminist to be driven out of a job--well, yeah, that sucks, but that doesn't mean you failed as a feminist either. Horrible female bosses can drive you out of a job just as well. You flat out know it's not a fight you can ever win. Either you stay in it/stalemating until he retires or you move on. He gets what he wants either way because he's in power and he will.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:27 AM on June 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


Look of you don't want to work with the guy it's a perfectly valid reason to look at other jobs. If you are managing ok with him right now that is good as it gives you time to find a job that is similarly flexible etc. I have never had a job were there isn't at least one person that makes me want to beat my head against a wall for some reason. If you can going a way to minimise contact with him and keep most communication with him in writing.com if nothing else if he says something outright sexist in writing you actually have something to take to HR.
posted by wwax at 7:29 AM on June 6, 2015


I'd look to find a way to stay.

Not because Dickhead's behaviour is acceptable, but because finding another job as good as the one you describe would be insanely hard.
posted by fullerine at 7:46 AM on June 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


I don't know whether you should look for another job or not, but I do know that most folks would be envious of your working conditions, even with having to deal with this one jerk. And there's a jerk in every office, it seems.

I think you've reached a point where you are so fed up with him that every single thing he says irritates you and in your mind, you find fault with it. I have friends who've been in this situation, and when they describe an interaction, I have a hard time sympathizing because it just doesn't sound that bad. If you think someone is a ass, then everything they say can be construed as crap, even if they say "Hey, pretty weather today!" So first, I would try to look realistically at some of the things he's saying that irritates you. Is it really misogynist, or is your own filter a little skewed because you dislike him so much?

Next, you can learn to deal with irritating people by reacting with humor when you really get a down-deep understanding that his inappropriate reactions are his problem, not yours. In my experience, the best reaction to (mildly) inappropriate comments is (mildly) amused disbelief. You are looking for a facial expression that says "I can't believe you just said that!" Raised eyebrows, slightly widened eyes, and a small smile usually conveys just the right amount. You're going for childlike wonder, more or less. Practice in front of a mirror if you need to. If he calls you out on your reaction, you say just that with a smile.

I don't think this is really a feminist issue, as I've worked with both men and women who did this, and the reaction works well with both. Usually they are left with an uneasy feeling that they are being ridiculed (which they are, in a mild and work-appropriate manner) and they will give some private thought to how to avoid that reaction in the future.

So. You have a great job, except for this one guy. And you are never going to change him. But you CAN change your own reaction to him. It's a skill you can acquire, just like any other workplace skill. And a skill that will be valuable throughout your career.
posted by raisingsand at 7:54 AM on June 6, 2015 [6 favorites]


There's no workplace without someone who will bug the crap out of you. And there's almost no workplace as generally good as what you're describing. Just tune it out. If it helps, imagine he's a woman when he starts talking - maybe that will help you hear it as "my very own awful annoying office person" and not "this male oppressing me."

I'm sympathetic to the fact that this guy is unpleasant and that it chafes to be managed by someone like this, but to be honest, none of the examples you gave sound as problematic as plenty of other stuff I've seen going on in productive offices - much of it being dished out by women.

And with regard to the totality of your job, please consider that getting plenty of money AND flexibility AND job security is exactly the kind of empowerment that women are often denied in the workplace. You're getting it. You ARE getting yours, even if your boss is an anti-feminist. He's on the losing side; you're winning.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:18 AM on June 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


I once got a promotion and a raise because my boss's boss was impressed by the way I handled a difficult stakeholder without losing my cool. (He wasn't sexist, just completely unreasonable.) I did tell her privately about his shenanigans but I was always polite and professional when I interacted with Mr. Difficult. I don't know if this applies to your situation, but being able to handle difficult people in a professional way is always a good skill to have. And it might pay dividends down the line.

If I were you, I'd only jump ship if I could find a new position that met your requirements-- interesting work, flexible schedule, etc.
posted by tuesdayschild at 8:50 AM on June 6, 2015


Even though your description of your boss's behavior doesn't sound unbearable, if several colleagues have left a well-paid, secure, and flexible job, it must be quite bad.

I've been in a similar situation and it was very, very difficult. Some things I wish I'd done differently:

1. Stop hoping this person will change. I kept thinking I could fix my boss and I wasted a lot of time and energy trying to figure out how.
2. Similarly, don't waste time "troubleshooting" the latest rotten thing he's done with colleagues. In our case, this only added to our stress levels and made us unproductive.
3. Don't think HR or senior management will help. We told them everything and they betrayed us, badly. As far as I can tell, HR's job is to protect the employer from being sued, and to process paperwork.
4. The union will back you up, but will also escalate the conflict. I didn't use them but colleagues who did were the ones who ended up leaving.
5. Keep your mouth shut. Trust no one in your workplace. Talk to your spouse, talk to us, talk to your counselor.

Consider whether there's a temporary solution that would help you get past where you are right now. If you are really suffering, would you get some relief from a holiday, or stress leave, or some counseling? If it's available, see if you can do a temporary change of position at your uni, replacing someone on parental or sick leave for 6 months or a year. Or perhaps you could get assigned to projects that take you out of the office and work with some new people who aren't in the toxic soup.
posted by Frenchy67 at 8:52 AM on June 6, 2015


As a woman and a feminist, I feel that I can't stay at this job.

Also, (short of a 1969 Womyn's Colony) being a feminist doesn't mean cloistering yourself among only right-minded people who believe what you do and behave in ways you approve of.
posted by third rail at 9:34 AM on June 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


Wow, I am really surprised and disappointed by the answers you've received so far.

I believe you that your boss--having driven multiple women out of the workplace before--is a sexist ass. And I have no doubt that this will impact your career increasingly in the future. Given your boss's attitudes about advancement of men, it's unlikely that this job will offer much in the way of education or promotion. People like him often find excuses not to give women or minorities raises, to favor men even if their job performance is below or equitable to yours.

You don't have to be grateful for simply having a job with a decent work/life balance--many jobs have that these days, especially within academia. You don't have to be grateful for being stuck in a place where you have to tolerate a dozen microaggressions a day.

That person said he didn't want to get involved in my "domestic issues" with my supervisor. My supervisor's peers tell me I should move on.

This is more than just your boss. This is a system of sexism. Your boss saying inflammatory, racist, or sexist things and your resulting emotions are not "domestic issues" and the label itself has sexist implications.

Keep interviewing, find another job you like, and leave. Leave and feel great about leaving. Leave and help other women who feel stuck there leave, too. You've been there ten years. That's great. No one will think you're weak for leaving. You will not lose your feminist card.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:48 AM on June 6, 2015 [15 favorites]


I can relate because I'm currently in a work situation where I have to deal with a couple of very difficult people, yet the job is awesome in other ways that would be hard to find elsewhere. One of the ways in which it is awesome is that it allows me to keep a healthy distance from these folks most of the time. That's really golden considering that there will always be a few difficult people everywhere I go. I'm still always on the lookout for something better, but I'm also careful about bailing on an otherwise excellent job just because someone is being very difficult. I might end up just swapping problems.

There are a couple of situations that would be catalysts to my moving on quickly no matter how fabulous other aspects of the job are. YMMV. One would be if the very difficult person was in a position to write or substantially influence my performance review. My concern there would be that the review would be unfairly negative and would damage my ability to get raises, bonuses and career growth opportunities. The other would be if I felt like I had gotten everything I possibly could out of the job in terms of career growth and I needed to move on for new challenges.
posted by jazzbaby at 9:10 AM on June 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


I have been told HR will not help.

Has HR told you this or did you get it from someone else? Maybe they need to hear about this shit more.

I worked fairly recently in a very sexist job situation (once got a lecture from a male manager about how, as a childless woman in my 30s, was wasting my life...and that wasn't even a weird day), but I quit because I hated the work. One thing you could do is keep a little notebook on you and jot down anytime something sexist happens, and then in a month (or whenever), go to HR with an actual document detailing dates, times, comments, and other people involved. Maybe when they see that you're serious, they'll get serious about dealing with him.

I do think that you should continue looking for better opportunities (all of us should always keep our eyes open for better opportunities), but don't let this asshole drive you out of an otherwise great job.
posted by AlisonM at 3:20 PM on June 19, 2015


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