Should I believe a 40+ man who says he doesn't believe in marriage?
May 23, 2015 6:23 PM   Subscribe

I've been dating a never-married man in his early 40s for the past few months. (I'm a decade younger.) Last night he casually mentioned that he never wants to get married and would be fine with raising kids without marriage -- just as HE was raised, as the only child of an unmarried mother. I am devastated because I am falling in love with him but cannot accept this commitment-free future. Should I get out now or endeavor to change his mind down the road?

Three months ago I met a wonderful man in his early 40s who had never been married. We met on a dating website and have been dating ever since. He took his profile offline very quickly; I eventually followed suit. We have tons of common interests and I love our lively conversations. Chemistry is off the charts. He treats me wonderfully and contacts me every day and takes me on wonderful dates.

He mentioned to me on an early date that his longest relationship was 4-5 years long and ended a year ago. They had lived together. Apparently he and that ex-girlfriend are still on amicable terms (I don't know the details of what happened and haven't asked).

He was raised by a single mother; his father was never in the picture and he never knew him. So far, I've been marveling at how normal, kind, polite and chivalrous he is despite this unconventional upbringing. But last night he dropped a bombshell that sent me scrambling to the Internet and contemplating leaving him . . . even though I REALLY like this guy.

The other night, in bed, the topic of marriage came up as an abstract topic (I forget how) and he casually mentioned that he doesn't really believe in marriage and it's just a piece of paper and most marriages fail and most married couples aren't happy and marriage contracts are too one-size-fits-all. I said, "Oh, so you'd be for serial monogamy, or...?" He said yes, serial monogamy, or two people raising kids together but not being married. I kind of changed the subject and played it cool, but deep down I totally panicked. I mean, I know single parenthood is normal to him because that's how he was raised, but I have absolutely NO intention of going through life trying to raise a child on my own. I want commitment, dammit! I want the wedding and the ring and title of "wife" and the whole shebang.

Should I get out now, before I get hurt down the road? I already like this guy more than any previous man I have dated. I saw us possibly working out... and I DON'T mean raising kids as "boyfriend and girlfriend" indefinitely. I'm in my early 30s and don't want to waste time on someone whose life goals preclude my happiness from the get-go.
posted by Guinevere to Human Relations (60 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
He is telling you what he believes in. Believe him. If you need and or want more than he can offer, walk away sooner than later.
posted by jennstra at 6:29 PM on May 23, 2015 [79 favorites]


It doesn't sound like this is just something he's saying offhand without giving it much thought, so yes, I would definitely believe him. However, since you like him so much otherwise, I'd ask him for clarity first whether he is against marriage so much that he would absolutely refuse to ever consider it, or whether he just thinks as a concept it isn't great and has no problem with never doing it, but for the right person who really wanted it would consider getting married. If he would never consider getting married and you would never consider not getting married, then there's really nothing more to say, no matter how nice he is.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 6:34 PM on May 23, 2015 [23 favorites]


If marriage is what you want, you should find someone who wants the same. Never go into anything hoping to make a change - any resulting marriage would be unhappy for sure!
posted by mibo at 6:35 PM on May 23, 2015 [12 favorites]


Yes, you should believe people when they tell you what they want and who they are. But unless I'm missing something, it sounds like the only difference in your plans is that he doesn't want to get married. He still wants to have a partner and raise kids with her.

It sounds like you need to have a talk with him and figure out how important marriage - the institution , not an aka for a LTR - is to you.
posted by pintapicasso at 6:35 PM on May 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


It seems like he's being extremely up front and courteous about his beliefs. I'd take him at his word.

Why do you think someone thinking marriage is mostly a piece of paper is a red flag though? Of course if you want to get married he's not the man for you. But it's not like thinking that or being raised by a single mom is scandalous..
posted by shownomercy at 6:38 PM on May 23, 2015 [7 favorites]


When a nice, kind, thoughtful man says he doesn't believe in marriage as a commitment, but openly welcomes the idea of raising children together, listen to him. He is looking at the heart of what it means to be committed, not the surface appearance of words and titles. I think you need to turn this around and acknowledge that you're the one with a hang-up about marriage, not him.
posted by Thing at 6:39 PM on May 23, 2015 [54 favorites]


Believe what people tell you about themselves.
posted by mollymayhem at 6:41 PM on May 23, 2015 [18 favorites]


-- Why do you think someone thinking marriage is mostly a piece of paper is a red flag though?

-- I think you need to turn this around and acknowledge that you're the one with a hang-up about marriage, not him.


The OP has very good reasons to view this as a red flag, and it's not a "hang up." (How insulting to the OP!) Marriage is valuable legal and financial protection for women who give up the most valuable, attractive, marriagable years of their lives to be with a man. If they live together unmarried until she's 45 or 55 and he dumps her, she has no financial recourse in many states to compensate for what she's given up.

Marriage is not just a piece of paper, especially for a woman.

To the OP... no, you shouldnt count on changing him. Move on!
posted by jayder at 6:49 PM on May 23, 2015 [156 favorites]


Believe what people tell you about themselves.

Corollary: Always mentally add "with you" to any declaration like this.

You have every right to want a traditional marriage situation. I'd let him know this. If he doesn't budge, tell him to cut bait and move on.
posted by mochapickle at 6:50 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Believe what he tells you.

It is not clear from what you wrote whether or not he would commit himself to a lifelong relationship with a woman or not. "I won't marry you, but I want to be with you for the rest of my life through thick and thin" is different than "I'll move on when it doesn't feel right any more.
posted by SLC Mom at 6:52 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well, I'm sorry to hear this news, but if he has zero intention of changing his plans for love--say, what happened if legal reasons made it a lot better for you to be legally wed?--then he's kinda arbitrarily putting a limitation on the relationship. There was some AskMe a few weeks ago that's reminding me of this, he said something like he'd never want to settle down with a woman, so you already know (a) he doesn't love you enough to change his mind on this and never plans to, and (b) the relationship is never going to progress past a certain point. If this is really, truly the case, then I'd say to cut your losses now because you want a husband if you're going to settle down with kids, no question.

Now, to be fair, saying something like this might also just mean that he knows a lot of people in bad marriages and as far as HE knew, growing up like that was just fine, thanks. As was pointed out above, other than the lack of legality, he still wants to more or less settle down with kids. I suppose it's possible for you to stick around and talk to him about this and see how flexible he is on it or not. Maybe that's worth it for awhile to see if he could change his mind. But if he's 100% on it, then...time to start fishing again.

Though really, if you shack up with a woman and knock her up a few times, you're probably still going to have complicated breakup drama and legalities to deal with even if you haven't officially gotten married, and once you have kids with them you're still kinda stuck with them for life. So avoiding marriage may not necessarily keep him out of what he claims to be afraid of. If he really wants to avoid those things, he'd need to avoid serious relationships and kids entirely.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 PM on May 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


You have a huge disconnect between what he said:
it's just a piece of paper
He said yes, serial monogamy, or two people raising kids together but not being married.

But then you go to:
I have absolutely NO intention of going through life trying to raise a child on my own. I want commitment, dammit!

You did not listen to what he said. Somehow you typed it to us... but it didn't penetrate. Read it again.

But if you want a marriage, that's fine. Let him go. It's better for you both because he doesn't deserve someone agreeing on the surface then trying to wheedle him for years to get married.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 6:52 PM on May 23, 2015 [7 favorites]


Also, what Jayder said is spot on.
posted by SLC Mom at 6:53 PM on May 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


It took me a long time to learn this lesson: always believe what people say about themselves. They might obfuscate about others, but never about themselves.
posted by OrangeDisk at 7:01 PM on May 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm in my early 30s and don't want to waste time on someone whose life goals preclude my happiness from the get-go.

Sometimes, the question answers itself.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:13 PM on May 23, 2015 [15 favorites]


To me, a married woman who does not want children, having kids seems like a WAY bigger commitment than marriage. I think he does have a hangup, which seemingly a lot of guys (including my husband before we got married) have, which for some reason makes marriage look really unattractive to them. Based on your ages, I wouldn't spend more time in this relationship since that is time you won't be spending with someone who DOES want marriage. My husband eventually came around, but I wasn't playing Beat the Biological Clock.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 7:18 PM on May 23, 2015 [10 favorites]


Should I believe a 40+ man who says he doesn't believe in marriage?

Yes.

If he's that awesome, though, it might be worth unpacking in your head what exactly it is that Marriage represents to you. My guess (based only on conversations with various people) is that marriage means "a relationship you stick to through thick and thin." It may well be that he views living together as the same sort of committment. So, if/when you have a conversation with him about this, it might be effective to not use the word 'marriage,' and talk more about committments and what you both want. If you can arrive at a shared definition of what your future could look like together, you have an excellent starting point for figuring out what to call it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:26 PM on May 23, 2015


What everyone else has said: believe what people tell you about themselves. This man does not want to be married and will not marry you. If marrying your partner is important to you, you need to move on. You're not wrong. It's not infantilizing yourself to want marriage. It's not necessarily "just a piece of paper"--there's a lot of social currency, metaphysics and practical considerations in it. Why else would anyone care whether or not gays could get married? But you don't agree with this man on the topic on a fundamental level. Believe him that he won't change his mind. Will you? If not, move on. There are lots of good people you could be with instead.

Possible digression: I met my husband in college and I really totally wanted to date him and see where it went. But he knew, absolutely and declared honestly, that he would never have children. I wanted to have children, so after talking frankly about it, we never dated each other. He was indifferent to marriage, but adamant about not being a parent.

About 20 years later, we both found ourselves single. I had been through an illness in my 30's which made it extremely unlikely I could have a successful pregnancy. He had not changed his mind, but he had not changed in other ways, and now we're pretty happily married. But here's the thing. He's never gloated or rejoiced in my sorrow being the reason we're together. Neither of us changed, but the reality of my life changed, so now we can be partners to one another in the way both of us want.

Do you foresee yourself no longer caring about marriage? If not, then this is not a compromise you should make.
posted by LeeloDallasMultiSocks at 7:49 PM on May 23, 2015 [8 favorites]


I had a very similar coversation/relationship early on with my now fiancé. Including the same age difference. What happened was I gave him a very direct talk about how compatible I thought we were and how the goal of any long term relationship was, for me, to commit and get married and have kids. That was honestly probably at month 3 or 4. For a few months after that, we didn't directly address it but the relationship continued to strengthen and eventually the old viewpoint was reconsidered in light of the relationship we had. This May or may not happen to you but it's definitely worth telling him as clearly as he told you about your thoughts for the long term and going from there.
posted by neematoad at 7:51 PM on May 23, 2015 [7 favorites]


I know a number of people who are in fully committed relationships and are raising children together in happy stable homes - without marriage. I also know people who used to be committed to each other, had kids, then got divorced and are now single parenting. So you know, no guarantees in this life. Have a conversation with him about it. Tell him what marriage means to you. Ask him what it is about legalizing things that he is opposed to. Talk about together.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:25 PM on May 23, 2015 [12 favorites]


I guess I don't get what is so different between two people raising kids together but not being married, and two people raising kids together being married. The mechanics are virtually identical.

Unless what he means is two people being co-parents and continuing to have their own individual lives and dating other people. That's kinda how I read it, especially when he agreed to serial monogamy. To me it sounds like he wants to be with someone, seriously, to the point of having kids together, but be able to move on without going through a divorce when the relationship runs its course.

That doesn't sound attractive to me, and since you want to be someone's wife, I guessing it isn't attractive to you either, even if he does in fact mean a romantic, no -marriage relationship with kids. But that's his right to want, and yours not to, so.

I'd leave sooner rather than later.
posted by chainsofreedom at 8:37 PM on May 23, 2015 [10 favorites]


If marriage is important to you (a value which is not unreasonable nor unusual) you should probably explain this to your lover. If he doesn't want to get married to you, walk fast in the other direction.
posted by Nevin at 8:38 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Have not read the thread. Yes, of course you should believe him. There's every reason to see that self-report as accurate. If that's not what you want, cut your losses.
posted by Miko at 8:42 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


I believe that at the instant he told you and right now with right now being a general this period of his life, he does not want to get married. I do think that that could change. I do not think you can change it by logically arguing it with him. I think his change, if he does, will come with time and with the relationship. Just as he is saying he doesn't believe in marriage and you do believe in it, I think you could change that too.

I am in my 50s. I was married for 18 with three kids. I am now divorced. I still believe in marriage for better or for worse. I guess my ex did not. However, if I met someone today who I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, I might or might not get married. I would be willing to consider just living together as a couple.

Looking back on my life and my relationships, the getting engaged and then married meant a great deal to me. We were publicly committing to each other. Legally too. But, within a year or two of being married, I realized that the legal entity in which we were together was secondary to the feeling of wanting to be together.

I came to realize that it was not marriage I was "into", but commitment. There are many ways to commit. You could have a ceremony without the legal documents. You could have the legal docs without the ceremony. You could just cut each other's hand and become blood brothers. Whatever.

If I were you, I would seek to find out if he is willing to commit. If that is yes, then I would think he may come around to the concept of a legal wedding.

I know a couple that lived together for 14 years and one day just up and decided to get married. They went down to the courthouse and filled out the papers, waited the appropriate time then had a judge marry them. They didn't even tell anyone until one night about 8 months later.
posted by AugustWest at 8:44 PM on May 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'd say he knows what he is saying. You are young and there are others out there that want what you want.
posted by Shylo at 8:52 PM on May 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't "believe" in marriage. I believe in solid relationships with good communication, and I believe in family. However, my partner likes the whole "lawfully wedded" thing, so we got married. They know that I don't think it changes anything and that I was already signed on for everything they "really" wanted without needing the state to issue us a piece of paper, yet it makes them happy on some level I don't really understand but am in turn pleased by. For my own part, well, I still call them my partner because they are, and to me that's all that matters. In any case though, we've found an acceptable balance. Maybe you two can too, if you talk to him more and really listen to what he's saying.
posted by teremala at 9:38 PM on May 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


You should believe, but I also feel like you're being a bit naive if you think marriage always automatically means commitment.
posted by Kimmalah at 9:49 PM on May 23, 2015 [13 favorites]


I saw us possibly working out... and I DON'T mean raising kids as "boyfriend and girlfriend" indefinitely. It is important to remember that that is what you envisioned for yourself in the first three months of seeing him. Now the reality of who he is and what he believes contradicts that conception. It is always safer to operate off of the data you are getting than visions and allusions to the future. A voice inside is trying to tell you something, which is what brought you to ask here in the first place. Pay attention to that voice.
posted by incolorinred at 10:23 PM on May 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Should I get out now or endeavor to change his mind down the road?

I think you should get out now. It's quite disrespectful to try to change another person.

You want what you want, which is completely OK. He wants what he wants, which is also completely OK. You do not have the right to try to alter what he wants any more than he has the right to try to alter what you want. And what happens if you fail? You'll have wasted all of that time.

Use "wants to get married" as a screening tool when meeting new men. It's important to you, so it's important enough a thing to check out before you start developing feelings for someone. If someone fails the test, move on to the next someone in the line. You'll be much happier in the long run.
posted by Solomon at 1:28 AM on May 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


People can be committed, and partners in every sense, without being married.
They can also be married and not be committed at all.

If it's the commitment part that matters most to you, that is very much possible without marriage, and I bet there are ways to get the legal/fiscal/other parts taken care of where you are, without actually marrying.

It's important to get to the heart of why you want to be married, and it's also important to get to understand how he feels about commitment, and what shape that could/should take in his view. These things need to be talked about.

In any case, it would be wise to believe him.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:30 AM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's always good advice to believe people when they tell you who they are, and it certainly wouldn't make sense to hang around just hoping that he'll eventually change his mind. But if this is bothering you so much that it's going to be a dealbreaker, I don't see what harm could come of telling him how this is making you feel before cutting him loose.

"Hey, beau, you know that conversation we had about marriage/commitment the other night? I probably should have said so at the time, but I really do picture myself getting married in the future. I understand your reasoning on the subject, but this is an important goal to me. Do you think there's some way we can reconcile our different beliefs?"
posted by Pizzarina Sbarro at 2:00 AM on May 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


I can think of two currently married couples where one of each of the two was completely against marriage at the beginning of the relationship. That said, never count on someone's opinion changing on something as key as this.

There are intermediate forms of legal partnerships including domestic partnership in several states in the US.

I think that you and your boyfriend should talk about this more - let him know why you feel that marriage is important and let him tell you why he feels that it isn't.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:46 AM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


He said... two people raising kids together but not being married... I mean, I know single parenthood is normal to him because that's how he was raised, but I have absolutely NO intention of going through life trying to raise a child on my own. I want commitment, dammit!

Well, this part at least you have wrong. People in deeply committed relationships raise children together all the time without being married. Marriage is also not a commitment.

I want the wedding and the ring and title of "wife" and the whole shebang.

Well fine, but that's a different thing than the above.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:24 AM on May 24, 2015 [8 favorites]


It is totally fine to want what you want and I am rather surprised at those implying you don't know what you want because they see marriage differently. Especially as you're a woman. We get told what to want and not want plenty enough in life; you seem to have clear ideas on this. You know what you want. You have every right to it. Listen to yourself as well as to him.

When it comes to raising kids, it is so very important to follow what you want and have a partner who does the same. It matters much less what the configuration is, than that the parent(s) both want and agree to their configuration. Kids interpret this as "my parents want and love me" because they aren't sophisticated enough to see the difference between parents who are unhappy in their parenting configuration and "my parents are unhappy because of me."

It might make it easier for you to decide if you look at it that way: you have two different parenting styles-slash-configuration desires, which clash in major ways, and that absolutely would have an impact on your child/ren.
posted by fraula at 5:14 AM on May 24, 2015 [16 favorites]


Even if you don't want to believe what he's saying, he's had twenty-plus marriageable years during which he's never been married. This should tell you something. Most men in their forties who really want to be married have found a way to do that.

Please do not compromise your own values and have children with a man who is interested in "serial monogamy." (When will he suddenly decide he wants a new relationship? When you're postpartum? When you hit forty? Yes, this could happen in a marriage too, but statistically it is much less likely.) This mismatch of values will not end well for anyone.

And, I'll just say it, what it sounds like he wants isn't really "ok," as many people are saying. He wants you to physically bear the children and bear all the risk of decreased earning potential (not to mention being an aging woman) without any legal protections for what you're giving up. Sounds like a great deal for him, not so much for you.
posted by luckdragon at 5:31 AM on May 24, 2015 [30 favorites]


Have at least one more conversation with him - he was very fortunate in his single parent experience. Talk about what his life would have been like if his mother had been unable to parent or provide for him due to illness or death. The pieces of paper can be critical when fortune doesn't smile upon a family. This is why same-sex marriage has been such a big deal- there are real benefits. If one partner dies, in some states, everything goes to the child or the decedent's family - the partner is not the next of kin. Chances are, you're not the first to bring this up. If you can talk on a decent level of intimacy, mention that it's a deal-breaker for you because what he is willing to commit to provides more question marks than peace.
posted by childofTethys at 6:37 AM on May 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


(U.S.-centric assumptions alert. If the following doesn't apply to you, it might apply to someone else.)

At my job, I've come across a LOT of people who thought they didn't need a piece of paper to be married in their hearts—until they discovered after their partners died they really wanted that piece of paper after all. Jayder is absolutely correct that marriage confers legal and financial protections on women for a reason. I'm getting married to my same-sex partner ahead of the U.S. Supreme Court decision, just in case. Not the way he or I wanted to do it, but I don't give two rat's patooties about the reception or the wedding cake or the ring. I WANT THAT PIECE OF PAPER! With it I can protect him and take care of him in a way that I can't even with a lawyer's help.

That's huge.

It's okay to want or not want that. Your partner is not a bad person for not wanting to be married. Only you know what marriage is worth to you, but it sounds like you have a good idea already and it differs from what your partner believes.

A few states allow civil unions or domestic partnerships between members of the opposite sex. If he doesn't want the status of "married", could that be a compromise position you both could live with?
posted by Somnambulista at 7:01 AM on May 24, 2015 [15 favorites]


Best answer: I think there was a real problem in the way you responded that you should think about. A person you think you might love and want to marry told you something that horrified you and made you fundamentally doubt that you should pursue the relationship...and so you played it cool, smiled and nodded, and ran to ask the internet if you should dump him?

I can sympathize with this impulse, but it is something you should really, really unpack before you move into a commitment with this guy, or other. Internet advice is good and all, but the internet does not know more about this guy's heart than he does, or more about your relationship than you do. Ask him. (Sometimes I think we should rename "AskMe" to "AskSomebodyElse" because "Ask a person" is the answer to 99% of the answers on here.)

Throw coolness out the window and tell him the truth. Don't sidle around it. Say, "Last night, what you said really freaked me out, because the truth is that I want to get married someday and I don't think I can see the future with someone who doesn't want that too - but I really, really like you. What do you think we should do?"
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:05 AM on May 24, 2015 [27 favorites]


He may have thought you were having more of an abstract conversation than you thought you were having, so I think it's worth it to try to explicitly have the concrete version of the conversation with him.

Although in a very different configuration than him, I grew up with parents not married to each other (who stayed together until death). They were not legally able to marry and maybe (probably? impossible to know now) would have married if they could. Still, to me as their kid, out of love and loyalty to them, I needed to vigorously defend the possibility of profound realer-than-marriage commitment without marriage, to the point where I had an almost reflexively negative attitude towards marriage (maybe akin to what many people feel about prenups--if you love and trust someone, why would you request a prenup? And legal marriage is basically a state defined prenup. True commitment doesn't require marriage, etc.)

Even then I acknowledged the 'validity' of marrying for practical, unjustly allocated benefits like health insurance and immigration (how generous of me! thank goodness I had patient loving friends). And I am a bit younger than your boyfriend and I've shifted my position considerably (I'm also pro prenup). But then I'm a woman and I think there's a lot more cultural pressure for us to think hard about these things, and also I went to law school and practiced matrimonial law for a few years.

I guess I wonder whether your boyfriend might have retained a more reflexive, emotional position (out of loyalty to his single mom) that he hasn't necessarily really interrogated, and for practical purposes might be more flexible than even he realizes.

So if he's really so great, I think it's worth talking before you walk. I don't know about the contention that if he were willing to marry he would've been married already. Plausible at best.
posted by Salamandrous at 7:13 AM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, as has been said many times upthread, believe him, but more importantly talk to him before deciding what to do. The type of conversation you were having was casual and abstract, and you concealed your own feelings and commenced freaking out internally. I understand that reaction, but, as far as he knows, you're totally down with that philosophy. There is nothing wrong with wanting marriage and the whole shebang, but I don't think you've given him the chance to have a serious, heartfelt conversation about this with the benefit of knowing your feelings on the subject. So, go back to him and say, "hey, I really would like to revisit that conversation we had about marriage the other night because I do believe in marriage and have always wanted x, y, & z for myself. Can you please explain your feelings on this again? Because if we don't agree on this, I think we need to part ways." Then listen, discuss, and decide from there. Absolutely believe what he says, take some time after the conversation to process what you both said, and, then if you need to end things, say goodbye, as difficult as that might be.

You may be surprised what will come up in this conversation. As some others have mentioned upthread, he has opinions about marriage, but you don't know what would happen if he was in a situation in which he loved someone very much and being married was a dealbreaker for her. He very well might consider it and eventually get married because it's important to that person, even if it isn't to him. Don't bank on that if he doesn't say it, but, especially since this seems to be the only issue, you really need a more nuanced understanding of his views, and he should have the context of knowing yours as well. Best of luck!
posted by katemcd at 7:50 AM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


He didn't say he's against commitment, he said he's against marriage, and he said he can envision raising children together (in a committed relationship?) If marriage is a deal-breaker for you, that's fine. Also it's true that marriage confers legal and financial protections, but jayder's characterization that those protections are solely for women and what they've "given up" in their best years seems needlessly old-fashioned, unless that's specifically the type of marriage you're looking for.
posted by Mavri at 7:51 AM on May 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


Maybe have a real conversation with him about this to find out exactly what he believes in and wants for his future. You guys both want what you want, and he's old enough to know. You are NOT going to change his mind. But it's possible he was sort of joking around maybe? Which is the only reason I even suggest a follow-up conversation.

Don't frame it as what you want for the two of you. It's what you want out of a relationship someday. It's not you pressuring him to marry you or anything, but you shouldn't compromise on what you want.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:16 AM on May 24, 2015


What is marriage to both of you? What is commitment?

I was with a man for 15 years who didn't want to get married. It always felt to me like he was saying that he didn't want to fully commit to me. And ultimately that was true - he revealed at some point years in that he didn't want to be monogamous with me after all. Even before that he was always keeping me away from his friends for stupid reasons. He compartmentalized me away from other parts of his life and I don't think he ever wanted a real life partner. I left him and am married now to someone who shares my feelings on commitment and partnership.

I agree with those who commented above that you don't need marriage to have commitment, but you should at least be in agreement on what that commitment is. But I also agree that you shouldn't compromise if marriage is something you really want. Even with the commitment you might never be happy.
posted by cabingirl at 8:33 AM on May 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


Should I get out now, before I get hurt down the road?

Yes. And please ignore all the (doubtless well-intentioned) folk who are babbling about the difference between marriage and commitment and (what they see as) the fact that marriage is irrelevant, etc.; they are importing their own socio-philosophical convictions into what is a perfectly simple situation. You want to get married; this guy doesn't; he's very unlikely to change his mind; therefore you should get out now, QED. It's only going to get more difficult the longer you wait. (You will find other guys out there who are just as nice but do not fear marriage.)
posted by languagehat at 9:25 AM on May 24, 2015 [17 favorites]


Best answer: Ugh. "Marriage is just a piece of paper" is a particularly insidious argument in that it is almost unarguably true in theory and yet almost universally false in real life.

In real life, the person who wants marriage is almost always being intellectually manipulated. They come to the table with one true agenda: they want to be married, and to the person they're currently with. But the other person at the table has a double and possibly a triple agenda: they specifically want to be not-married (true agenda), or possibly want to be not-married specifically to you (another true agenda) but instead of straight-up saying that they want to keep their options open they say that marriage itself is bullshit which is a false agenda because you are not there to debate marriage theory and also if they truly believed that marriage is no big deal then it wouldn't be a big deal to not not get married either, right? And then there is the "no guarantee" argument with the inevitable side helping of divorce stats... equally weak-sauce intellectual manipulation. If 25% of marriages end in divorce (source), well then, how about them 75% apples?

Anecdotally, I have experience with several guys like this (guy friends who were vehemently against marriage and girlfriends who were on the receiving end of the no-marriage sentiment). There hasn't been a single time that the guy did not in fact get married later, just to someone else. And to be honest, it mostly had to do with the physical type of the women - as soon as those guys found someone who combined personality with the physical type that they were really into, they had suddenly turned into enthusiastic groomzillas.
posted by rada at 10:07 AM on May 24, 2015 [42 favorites]


On the plus side, people who are saying he won't change are all wet. There's nothing more common than a man who said he didn't believe in marriage happily marching down the aisle a year or three later. There's nothing wrong with a well-placed ultimatum.

On the negative side, "marriage is just a piece of paper" is not even true in theory. People who don't want to get married want to be free to leave the relationship with fewer consequences. Now, when it's a mutual sentiment, it can be, in a way, an admirable countercultural / romantic statement about not being possessive, about being free to pursue bliss without social or economic coercion, etc. But when it's unilateral, it's a scam.
posted by MattD at 11:13 AM on May 24, 2015 [13 favorites]


Perhaps not a reason to walk out on him just yet but to start a serious dialogue about what you each want and how you want your life to be in 5 years. If, over the course of these conversations, it becomes clear that you are not as compatible as you imagined, be it because of this or other reasons, you move on. Give yourself a timeframe for finding out that is months, not years.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:17 PM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


I want the wedding and the ring and title of "wife" and the whole shebang.

I agree with others who say that you should tell him this. I don't think that there is anything wrong with wanting these things. He may not feel like he needs marriage to have commitment, but he might be able to embrace it as being important because it's important to you. If he can only give you a maybe or if this is something that he can't give you without being unhappy himself, then you two are not compatible.

So, talk to him. Find out if not getting married is really important to him, or if he's only indifferent about it. Find out if he can recognize your feelings about marriage as being just as valid as his. Find out if your vision of marriage is something he could embrace, knowing that it's important to you and your happiness.
posted by GeekDad at 12:31 PM on May 24, 2015


I'm not sure where our asker is but here in SC, if I want to divorce my wife, I need to wait a year. Prior to the wedding, I could have ended the relationship via a text message. That's a commitment, absolutely, and there's a big difference between being okay with that and not being okay with that.
posted by ftm at 1:44 PM on May 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


People who don't want to get married want to be free to leave the relationship with fewer consequences.

There are other reasons that people don't want to get married, including a desire not to involve the government in their intimate relationships.
posted by andoatnp at 3:00 PM on May 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


Thank goodness he was honest about this after only three months! Bravo to him. I'm sure that by age 40, he's dated other women who feel the way you do, and he's given you the chance to end things amicably before either of you get more involved. I agree that since you really like him, it's worth having another conversation about it before ending it. Good luck.

FWIW, I was raised by a single mom after my parents divorced. These days, over a third of American children are being raised by single parents. It's not so unconventional. His feelings about marriage are his, and I never shared them growing up or as an adult.
posted by Pearl928 at 3:00 PM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mostly agree that one should take people at their word, but consider also that sometimes people really don't know themselves. I was indifferent to the idea of marriage and after the end of my second long term relationship (one a marriage) at 40, it was completely clear to me that I would not only not marry again but that I had no intention of entering a serious relationship again. I was absolutely positive. Then I met my current partner and all bets were off. I would live anywhere and under any circumstance to be with her. My point is maybe he could change his mind, if I were you I would make it clear to him how you feel and enjoy who he is for a while and then move on.
posted by InkaLomax at 3:18 PM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, you should believe him. But on the other hand, I don't think that means you should give up on the relationship.

When I met my wife, I said basically the exact same thing. I wanted kids, I had less than zero interest in getting married. After talking about it a few times and realizing that kids required marriage for her, I re-evaluated and decided that my desire to create a family with this person was more important than my distaste for the institution of marriage.

Your boyfriend may decide the same thing, or, more importantly, you might decide that you care more about a future with this man than you do about marriage.

If the relationship is otherwise great, only give up on it after you have both done some serious introspection and decided that you are entirely immovable on this issue. And if that's the way it goes, I'd be willing to say that both of you are making a mistake.
posted by 256 at 3:41 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


I totally get the "marriage vs commitment" debate being had here, as well as the "tell him how you feel directly and then see how it goes" advice, but what tips the scales into "don't get your hopes up" territory for me is 1) his age and 2) the end of a previously long term relationship for him. I would dig into what happened with that relationship to understand more whether he truly gets commitment or not. But personally given these details I wouldn't get my hopes up and would try to hold myself back from my feelings overriding my common sense.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:29 PM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also fwiw the guys over 40 that I've seen settle down were with women who expressed what they wanted and who were willing to walk (without any ultimatums or deep soul searching before hand) if the guy wasn't simpatico. And boy the guys got simpatico real quick, it was quite impressive.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:33 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ugh. "Marriage is just a piece of paper" is a particularly insidious argument in that it is almost unarguably true in theory and yet almost universally false in real life.
That may be true where you live, but it's absolutely not true "universally in real life". Where I live, not getting married is really common. More than half of all women here are not married when they have their first child. Many couples do not get married for whatever reason and especially when they have children they're usually just as committed to each other as married couples with children. Having children, buying a house together, are seen as more real commitments than getting married.
posted by blub at 2:26 AM on May 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, I understand that people have a lot of different opinions, expectations and experiences related to the topic, but this is still Ask Metafilter and not an open discussion / debate space, so let's try to keep comments directed toward answering the OP. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:59 AM on May 25, 2015 [1 favorite]


instead of straight-up saying that they want to keep their options open they say that marriage itself is bullshit which is a false agenda because you are not there to debate marriage theory and also if they truly believed that marriage is no big deal then it wouldn't be a big deal to not not get married either, right?

This. Run, don't walk, away from this guy. Life is too short to deal with even the most attractive Peter Pan, especially when you're nearing the end of your childbearing years.
posted by corb at 5:08 AM on May 25, 2015 [2 favorites]


This is hard because it's been three months, so right around the end of the initial honeymoon period and then this comes up. Strange timing, to me. It's both early and late, in a way-- late to be hearing marriage is not on the table for him, but it still feels early to be breaking off the relationship if this was the only negative. I'd be confused too, but I think you probably have the right idea to break up before you invest much more.

However I don't think it would be a bad idea to share your feelings about this with him. "I really like you but if marriage is not on the table I'm going to have to move on." People have been known to rethink this kind of thing.
posted by BibiRose at 5:27 AM on May 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


I want the wedding and the ring and title of "wife" and the whole shebang.

Before getting into his true agenda (for the record, I completely agree with rada's theory, above, and I too have seen it in action. My second exhusband was 40 and didn't want to be married until he did), I would urge you to examine why you want these things. Weddings, rings, and the title "wife" are all just symbols and trappings of traditional marriage (which, BTW, is about power and property, not twue wuv), they're not the institution itself. In the long run they are not important at all. They're stage props whose meanings are supplied by you and society.

Seriously, you need to examine your idea of marriage in depth, leaving out the fantasies about engagement rings, pretty white dresses, and my-special-day weddings. Those things are fun to think about, and there is nothing wrong with wanting them, but let's be clear: they are not marriage, and they are not commitment. Not even close.

What you really seem to want is a committed partner to raise children with. Marriage is not the only way to get that, and may not even be the best way, and it is certainly no guarantee. You could marry someone who uses all the right words and sentiments and props (wedding, ring, "wife") and maybe even convinces himself that's what he means, but whose idea of true commitment is entirely different from yours.

He's the son of a single mother who never knew his father (this is not as unconventional as you seem to think, BTW) so he did not witness what marriage is like growing up, as you correctly infer. He knows even less about it than you do. To him, an absent father is the norm. That would be a big red flag telling me he'd think it no big deal to abandon his own wife and children. His mom was OK and he turned out OK, so why wouldn't you and your kids be OK without him too?

So after you've done some critical thinking about your assumptions about marriage and why exactly you want it (please do not skip this step), if you still want it above all, then tell him that's what you want and it's non-negotiable, and see what happens. If he stands pat, you know what you need to do: walk. Don't hesitate and don't look back. If he's not willing to even consider your wishes now, he's telling you that's how it's going to be always. You don't want to be married to or raise children with someone like that.
posted by caryatid at 12:03 PM on May 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


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