I fought the slaw, and the slaw won
April 25, 2015 8:19 PM Subscribe
Is cole slaw a chopped salad? If not, what's the difference?
Culturally, cole slaw seems like more of a condiment to me, especially as it is often served alongside a sandwich in a little plastic cup. But I made this Pea, Radish, & Cabbage Slaw tonight, and it seemed an awful lot like a chopped salad.
Relatedly, are other slaws different from cole slaw? Does cole slaw have a narrower definition than other slaws?
Would love to hear from any food historians or anthropologists who can shed some light on this.
Culturally, cole slaw seems like more of a condiment to me, especially as it is often served alongside a sandwich in a little plastic cup. But I made this Pea, Radish, & Cabbage Slaw tonight, and it seemed an awful lot like a chopped salad.
Relatedly, are other slaws different from cole slaw? Does cole slaw have a narrower definition than other slaws?
Would love to hear from any food historians or anthropologists who can shed some light on this.
I've seen slaw both ways, but I usually prepare and eat it as a salad or salad-like side. It totally depends on the style of slaw. If lettuce is in a bowl, it's a salad. If it's on a burger, is it a condiment?
I've had fine-chopped coleslaw on a pulled pork sandwich; and I've had shredded slaw with all kinds of vegetables and lighter, no-mayo dressing. One is closer to remoulade, one is closer to chopped salad.
And the line is considerably blurred between celeriac remoulade and celeriac slaw.
(For what it's worth, Wikipedia calls it a salad.)
posted by WasabiFlux at 8:48 PM on April 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've had fine-chopped coleslaw on a pulled pork sandwich; and I've had shredded slaw with all kinds of vegetables and lighter, no-mayo dressing. One is closer to remoulade, one is closer to chopped salad.
And the line is considerably blurred between celeriac remoulade and celeriac slaw.
(For what it's worth, Wikipedia calls it a salad.)
posted by WasabiFlux at 8:48 PM on April 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have always understood coleslaw to be a salad, I mean that's what KFC said and who am I to argue with the colonel? According to Wikipedia, it comes from the dutch "koolsla" which is short for "koolsalade" which translates to "cabbage salad". And as far as I know "slaw" is simply an abbreviation of coleslaw, but if not it should mean "salad" as its derived from a word that means salad.
posted by rodlymight at 8:48 PM on April 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 8:48 PM on April 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's a cultural question - food doesn't tend to obey our categories and it's not like "slaw" and "chopped salad" are different categories, anyhow. They're basically the same. In food history you tend to find a lot of convergent evolution - people have similar prolems and figure out similar solutions, with slight variations. Slaw is a chopped salad, functionally, but one with particular cultural origins in middle Europe. Salad usually (not always) denotes raw vegetables + dressing. Contemporary "slaws" can incorporate just about anything - but by using the word "slaw" they're claiming a sort of consonance or continuity with German/Dutch food traditions. I tend to think it connotes chunkier, stiffer vegetables in slender cuts.
posted by Miko at 8:50 PM on April 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Miko at 8:50 PM on April 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
For me the difference is a salad is not pickled, whereas any coleslaw I've had and then immediately vacated vigorously from my person is pickled. I don't get along with pickled.
posted by juiceCake at 8:58 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by juiceCake at 8:58 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I treat it as a salad, and happily put it on sandwiches as well. (Why some people insist on making coleslaw disgustingly sweet, though, I will never understand.) Condiment vs salad seems like a question of quantity and place in a meal, not in definition.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:00 PM on April 25, 2015
posted by Dip Flash at 9:00 PM on April 25, 2015
I think Miko and WasabiFlux are on the right track here: there's what you might call a "coleslaw function", particularly in a modern American restaurant menu, which is somewhat different from the function of a chopped salad when it shows up on the same menu. How you categorise coleslaw really depends on how you eat it, and how you eat it has been nudged towards "little plastic cup on the side".
It's somewhat different from relishes like chow-chow or (British) pickles and chutneys and piccalilly and even Heinz Sandwich Spread, which is the most coleslawy thing you can buy in a jar that isn't coleslaw. Those are true condiments. But I come from a land where coleslaw is sold in a plastic tub alongside prawn cocktail and cheese savory in "things you put in vol-aux-vents", the grated cheese and coleslaw sandwich is a thing. And not a bad thing, to be honest.
posted by holgate at 9:16 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's somewhat different from relishes like chow-chow or (British) pickles and chutneys and piccalilly and even Heinz Sandwich Spread, which is the most coleslawy thing you can buy in a jar that isn't coleslaw. Those are true condiments. But I come from a land where coleslaw is sold in a plastic tub alongside prawn cocktail and cheese savory in "things you put in vol-aux-vents", the grated cheese and coleslaw sandwich is a thing. And not a bad thing, to be honest.
posted by holgate at 9:16 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also forgot to mention (reminded by juiceCake), many coleslaws are marinated (pickled) in the dressing for a period of hours; or the cabbage and/or other vegetables are salted and left to wilt and drain before (possibly rinsing and then) adding dressing and other ingredients. Those kinds can be much more condiment-like.
I honestly really like raw cabbage, so my slaws are made to be crunchy and fresh, served immediately after dressing. But if I were making a more BBQ-compatible slaw, I'd start it a lot like sauerkraut, by salting, massaging, and draining.
See also Japanese tartar sauce, which can get pretty close to egg salad. But that's bringing in even more definitions of "sauce" and "salad"!
posted by WasabiFlux at 9:22 PM on April 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I honestly really like raw cabbage, so my slaws are made to be crunchy and fresh, served immediately after dressing. But if I were making a more BBQ-compatible slaw, I'd start it a lot like sauerkraut, by salting, massaging, and draining.
See also Japanese tartar sauce, which can get pretty close to egg salad. But that's bringing in even more definitions of "sauce" and "salad"!
posted by WasabiFlux at 9:22 PM on April 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
In most restaurant menus a "Chopped Salad" has chopped boiled eggs, bacon, bleu cheese, kidney beans, chicken, cucumbers, and tomatoes. It is served with dressing, and the ingredients are separate in the bowl. Cole slaw is typically a side salad, and a chopped salad is usually a full meal.
posted by Oyéah at 11:03 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 11:03 PM on April 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I took a look at the recipe you linked, and I'd say that is a salad. If you are serving from a large bowl to plates, it is a slaw-like salad. If you are putting a scoop, mound, or little plastic cup of it next to a sandvich or main, it is a slaw. With salad-like aspirations.
posted by vrakatar at 11:17 PM on April 25, 2015
posted by vrakatar at 11:17 PM on April 25, 2015
I think they call it a slaw because it is shredded cabbage. Usually, a slaw features a cruciferous veg and is dressed well ahead to tenderize the ingredients. A chopped salad's main green usually comes from lettuce. I think slaw really is a shortening of the word coleslaw but I sort of think of it as raw shredded veggies dressed as a non-lettucey salad, nevermind if it is cabbage.
posted by Foam Pants at 12:17 AM on April 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 12:17 AM on April 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Defintion of slaw:
1860-65, Americanism; < Dutch sla, short for salade salad
Cole of course = cabbage. Don't you just love it when someone calls it cold slaw?
posted by Cranberry at 12:42 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
1860-65, Americanism; < Dutch sla, short for salade salad
Cole of course = cabbage. Don't you just love it when someone calls it cold slaw?
posted by Cranberry at 12:42 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't personally consider coleslaw to be a condiment, though maybe it's possible. I'm inclined to think of condiments as spices or sauces which may be added to food to enhance flavor. Things like relishes and chutneys would be considered condiments and definitely start to push how solid something can be yet still be considered a sauce.
I think if you go to a diner and you get a sandwich and it comes with fries, a small tub of coleslaw and a pickle, to me those are all just sides to your meal. While it's possible to put the coleslaw on your sandwich, it's not like it's specifically targeted to certain sandwiches the way au jus comes with a roast beef sandwich.
I also think of Primanti Brothers, a chain of restaurants where the sandwiches come with cole slaw (and french fries) on them. But even in that case, I'm less inclined to think of cole slaw as a condiment as opposed to simply another ingredient of the sandwich.
To me, it's a side salad. That it often comes in small tubs might be due to factors like cost, not all customers wanting it, or that the restaurant thinks people generally don't want a lot of it.
posted by cali59 at 3:18 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think if you go to a diner and you get a sandwich and it comes with fries, a small tub of coleslaw and a pickle, to me those are all just sides to your meal. While it's possible to put the coleslaw on your sandwich, it's not like it's specifically targeted to certain sandwiches the way au jus comes with a roast beef sandwich.
I also think of Primanti Brothers, a chain of restaurants where the sandwiches come with cole slaw (and french fries) on them. But even in that case, I'm less inclined to think of cole slaw as a condiment as opposed to simply another ingredient of the sandwich.
To me, it's a side salad. That it often comes in small tubs might be due to factors like cost, not all customers wanting it, or that the restaurant thinks people generally don't want a lot of it.
posted by cali59 at 3:18 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Relatedly, are other slaws different from cole slaw? Does cole slaw have a narrower definition than other slaws?
Coleslaw is made with cabbage. It's not hard to find broccoli slaw and carrot slaw, which are about what you'd expect.
I don't consider coleslaw a condiment. It's a salad which is occasionally used as a sandwich ingredient. A lot of the slaws you find in little plastic cups in restaurants - the watery white stuff with tiny finely chopped bits - is just not very good. When you encounter good coleslaw, it's more obviously a salad.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:40 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Coleslaw is made with cabbage. It's not hard to find broccoli slaw and carrot slaw, which are about what you'd expect.
I don't consider coleslaw a condiment. It's a salad which is occasionally used as a sandwich ingredient. A lot of the slaws you find in little plastic cups in restaurants - the watery white stuff with tiny finely chopped bits - is just not very good. When you encounter good coleslaw, it's more obviously a salad.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:40 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
To illustrate: icky coleslaw, tasty coleslaw.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:43 AM on April 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:43 AM on April 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Coleslaw and other slaws are shredded and often prestressed/marinated. So I wouldn't consider them a chopped salad. But I do consider them a salad.
posted by NikitaNikita at 5:12 AM on April 26, 2015
posted by NikitaNikita at 5:12 AM on April 26, 2015
To me coleslaw is primarily a salad and not a condiment. I think it's relevant that you can't buy a jar of it to store in your fridge indefinitely and add to your sandwich or burger when the mood strikes, as you can with mustard or pickles or even sauerkraut. And to me, a condiment is something that is not just served alongside another food, but eaten together with it and usually not eaten on its own. Onion rings are often served alongside a sandwich in a basket, and can even be added on top of a burger, but that doesn't make them a condiment.
Further, to me, slaw-type salads and chopped salads each have specific characteristics that make them quite distinct. Slaws are (a) primarily shredded/linear; (b) not lettuce-based; (c) typically served as a side salad. Chopped salads are (a) chopped into bite-sized pieces; (b) lettuce based; (c) typically served as an entré salad. The pea/radish/cabbage slaw you link to kind of stretches the definition of slaw, which may be why it seems like a chopped salad to you. If the snap peas and all the radishes were matchsticked, I'd see it more clearly in the slaw category.
posted by drlith at 6:03 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Further, to me, slaw-type salads and chopped salads each have specific characteristics that make them quite distinct. Slaws are (a) primarily shredded/linear; (b) not lettuce-based; (c) typically served as a side salad. Chopped salads are (a) chopped into bite-sized pieces; (b) lettuce based; (c) typically served as an entré salad. The pea/radish/cabbage slaw you link to kind of stretches the definition of slaw, which may be why it seems like a chopped salad to you. If the snap peas and all the radishes were matchsticked, I'd see it more clearly in the slaw category.
posted by drlith at 6:03 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
American coleslaw is a pickled chopped salad made from cabbage and vinegar and other ingredients. You can make other slaws with other chopped pickled vegetables, but then they aren't made from kohl. If you dress it with vinegar immediately then it's a salad. The distinction is important because of how crunchy and dry cabbage is; pickling softens it.
The confusion is that the crappy "coleslaw" that comes right out of the Sysco can and in to a little plastic cup is more like a condiment. Or a dessert. It's drowning in mayonnaise and oversweetened with sugar. Mayo and sugar can go in real coleslaw too, but only in moderation. Also coleslaw (whether good or crappy) is sometimes used as a sandwich topping. But it's more like a pickle in that application than a condiment.
posted by Nelson at 7:30 AM on April 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
The confusion is that the crappy "coleslaw" that comes right out of the Sysco can and in to a little plastic cup is more like a condiment. Or a dessert. It's drowning in mayonnaise and oversweetened with sugar. Mayo and sugar can go in real coleslaw too, but only in moderation. Also coleslaw (whether good or crappy) is sometimes used as a sandwich topping. But it's more like a pickle in that application than a condiment.
posted by Nelson at 7:30 AM on April 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Coleslaw as a condiment is a very American user of it. Coleslaw is a chopped salad. I never heard of a chopped salad until I moved to the US., Usually it was called some variation on a slaw.
posted by wwax at 7:31 AM on April 26, 2015
posted by wwax at 7:31 AM on April 26, 2015
Cold Slop was one familial joke about this dish. I begged a recipe from a Bosnian cafe owner, because their slaw was so great.
She say, chop cabbage thin, leave the pieces long. Put it in a bowl and salt it, them stir it, and "skveeze it", put a heavy lid on it and let it sit half hour or 45 minutes. Then add vinegar, and stir, then oil to taste. This could be spiced with celery seed, or dill. This slaw was light, not oily, and the best ever. Wilting the cabbage is so great. It could go any way, sweetened a little, or spiced a lot.
posted by Oyéah at 10:18 AM on April 26, 2015
She say, chop cabbage thin, leave the pieces long. Put it in a bowl and salt it, them stir it, and "skveeze it", put a heavy lid on it and let it sit half hour or 45 minutes. Then add vinegar, and stir, then oil to taste. This could be spiced with celery seed, or dill. This slaw was light, not oily, and the best ever. Wilting the cabbage is so great. It could go any way, sweetened a little, or spiced a lot.
posted by Oyéah at 10:18 AM on April 26, 2015
I was pretty sure I was just going to check de Condimentis and get a definitive answer for you, but I can't find your question addressed directly.
However, I think this taxonomy provides a useful framing for the question.
My guess, using that as a guideline, that coleslaw might be a salad/pickle turned feral, such that, depending on the context and execution, something you call coleslaw could be a condiment, a salad, a pickle, or a hybrid. Non-cabbage slaws, it seems to me, are almost always salads, though.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
However, I think this taxonomy provides a useful framing for the question.
My guess, using that as a guideline, that coleslaw might be a salad/pickle turned feral, such that, depending on the context and execution, something you call coleslaw could be a condiment, a salad, a pickle, or a hybrid. Non-cabbage slaws, it seems to me, are almost always salads, though.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
usage and language seem to have failed us. salad -> salt. except not.
don't forget that (historically) 'salade à l'américaine' == basically anything mixed with mayonnaise.
wandering:
as others have mentioned: pickles such as Branston's.
ditto kimchi.
ditto sauerkraut.
crossing the line: raita/raidu vs. tzatziki.
what in the ever-loving-hell does it mean when I order a pizza and a Greek Salad, and then end up eating bits of said salad on top of the pizza slice? (Mr. Newman's face on a foil packet may or may not be involved)
ditto I can't think of a single banchan I was ever served, fish, seaweed, jellyfish, or otherwise - I wouldn't put on/into a sammich. so, and, all respect to Primanti Bros., but the Chip Butty was already invented. preferably involving salad cream and branston pickle.
posted by dorian at 11:02 AM on April 26, 2015
don't forget that (historically) 'salade à l'américaine' == basically anything mixed with mayonnaise.
wandering:
as others have mentioned: pickles such as Branston's.
ditto kimchi.
ditto sauerkraut.
crossing the line: raita/raidu vs. tzatziki.
what in the ever-loving-hell does it mean when I order a pizza and a Greek Salad, and then end up eating bits of said salad on top of the pizza slice? (Mr. Newman's face on a foil packet may or may not be involved)
ditto I can't think of a single banchan I was ever served, fish, seaweed, jellyfish, or otherwise - I wouldn't put on/into a sammich. so, and, all respect to Primanti Bros., but the Chip Butty was already invented. preferably involving salad cream and branston pickle.
posted by dorian at 11:02 AM on April 26, 2015
Coleslaw and other slaws are shredded and often prestressed/marinated
.and the default is cabbage, fermented cabbage, which isn't salad. Salad is fresh.
posted by Rash at 11:04 AM on April 26, 2015
.and the default is cabbage, fermented cabbage, which isn't salad. Salad is fresh.
posted by Rash at 11:04 AM on April 26, 2015
and the default is cabbage, fermented cabbage, which isn't salad. Salad is fresh.
I don't think I've ever had coleslaw that is made from fermented cabbage - that would be sauerkraut. In my experience, coleslaw is made of fresh cabbage, and served within a day or so of making it.
posted by sluggo at 1:56 PM on April 26, 2015
I don't think I've ever had coleslaw that is made from fermented cabbage - that would be sauerkraut. In my experience, coleslaw is made of fresh cabbage, and served within a day or so of making it.
posted by sluggo at 1:56 PM on April 26, 2015
To me coleslaw is primarily a salad and not a condiment. I think it's relevant that you can't buy a jar of it to store in your fridge indefinitely and add to your sandwich or burger when the mood strikes, as you can with mustard or pickles or even sauerkraut.
This is true, and that's because slaw isn't preserved. It's dressed, but not preserved. Ketchup, sauerkraut, mustards, chutneys - these are all preserves, recipes designed to last a very long time under reasonably cool conditions and loaded with preservation agents like salt, vinegar, and sugar. This for me is what makes slaw of any kind fundamentally a salad. It's made of fresh vegetables, chopped small. Salads aren't lettuce-dependent; salade Nicoise, for instance, has no lettuce.
I think food-history-wise the salad/condiments distinction is not terribly unclear. And cole slaw is actually a dish, not a sandwich topping. I grew up with a bowl of it on the table at every holiday dinner, and we weren't eating sandwiches. The confounding principle, I think, is this descriptor "Chopped" salad. The word chopped obviously has connotations for people that are quite specific, but I would submit that perhaps that's more a function of individual experience with specific chopped salads than it is with chopped salad as a descriptor. I think "chopped salad" connotes the kinds of things described in the link, but coleslaw is also a chopped salad, just not usually one we call by that name. It is definitely a salad, though.
posted by Miko at 7:07 PM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is true, and that's because slaw isn't preserved. It's dressed, but not preserved. Ketchup, sauerkraut, mustards, chutneys - these are all preserves, recipes designed to last a very long time under reasonably cool conditions and loaded with preservation agents like salt, vinegar, and sugar. This for me is what makes slaw of any kind fundamentally a salad. It's made of fresh vegetables, chopped small. Salads aren't lettuce-dependent; salade Nicoise, for instance, has no lettuce.
I think food-history-wise the salad/condiments distinction is not terribly unclear. And cole slaw is actually a dish, not a sandwich topping. I grew up with a bowl of it on the table at every holiday dinner, and we weren't eating sandwiches. The confounding principle, I think, is this descriptor "Chopped" salad. The word chopped obviously has connotations for people that are quite specific, but I would submit that perhaps that's more a function of individual experience with specific chopped salads than it is with chopped salad as a descriptor. I think "chopped salad" connotes the kinds of things described in the link, but coleslaw is also a chopped salad, just not usually one we call by that name. It is definitely a salad, though.
posted by Miko at 7:07 PM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
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