Had an anxiety attack in front of a girl I like who's just a friend
April 15, 2015 10:23 PM Subscribe
How do you come back from an emasculating, embarrassing event where you most likely weirded out a friend, particularly a friend you have feelings for? Should I just not look back and run, because that's how I'm feeling right now... it's fight or flight, and I'm not showing up to a smackdown. [long]
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a senior in college, who's on top of that a bit older than most students... I'm 26 (long story). This is going to sound like a classic awkward teenage-hormone-turmoil scenario a middle school boy would go through. Don't worry... I'm aware. I thought I'd have my crap together at this point.
Anyway,
I like this girl, but she is my friend. I friend-zoned myself. I didn't make a move romantically when I met her because she had a boyfriend, and I just couldn't. I didn't want to be "that douche" that wrecks (or miserably fails at wrecking) relationships. At the same time, I didn't want to not know her. After we studied together for the first time, we hit it off so much that we ditched studying, she ended up going back to my place, we smoked, and we had one of the most intellectually stimulating existential conversations I've ever had. I had learned that she had a boyfriend early on, so that's why I "didn't make a move".
This is why I like this girl. She's very "hipster" hot (if that's a thing), but I also fell for her personality. I feel like she gets me in a way that nobody I've ever talked to before has. We wonder together, philosophize together, joke together.
I'm not an idiot. I knew that if I were to be friends with her, I'd have to stuff my feelings, and for a while it wasn't hard. I'm in college and had been going on a couple of coffee 'dates' with different girls for a couple of weeks ('dates' as in one on one with a girl trying to get to know her better). These all fizzled out, and it was okay, because at least I was friends with this cool chick.
Last Friday, she came to me and opened up about her and her boyfriend. That she was thinking of breaking up with him, and wanted my advice. I sat there with her for about two hours talking her step by step through the process, and she really opened up about everything, even her sexual life with him and how it was dissatisfying (he had ED and premature ejaculation)... she stood with him a year while this was going on, so it's not like she's shallow. I talked her into breaking up with him. In her best interest. Though it meant that she was now single, I really only had her best interest in mind. Later that day she did break up with him, and we talked about it over the phone afterwords.
Even though logic told me that it's a horrible time to start feeling feelings for her again, just as (1), She's in that recovery stage, even though she seems to be relieved and content. She's probably not ready for another relationship so fast, and if so, I'd just be "rebound guy". (2), I hear this all the time from other guys... if I've just showed myself to be her 'girlfriend' that she comes to for advice, she will only see me as a friend and nothing more. Or something. I don't know. I think it all comes back to the "don't be the nice guy, because they finish last" philosophy. It makes sense.
So, now that the backstory is all laid out, here's what happened today:
Today, me, this girl, and her friend went to this cool creek/park place. I've known her friend, a guy, for a couple of weeks now, as we see each other occasionally. I have no problem with him. He's a cool, kind, genuine guy. I'm sure we may end up friends in our own right.
I can just tell that they have a closer friendship. The way she talks to him, how he can just be more playful with her. It's ugly, but I felt jealous. And then insecure. Like an outsider. I just felt left out. I'm even pretty sure after they dropped me off, they went on to still hang out. Like I'm not as important or something. I was acting very quiet though, so I don't quite blame them.
(A BIG BTW: I've not taken my Cymbalta or Adderall XR for three days in a row now, because I ran out and couldn't get refilled until tomorrow. So, obviously, that has something to do with my state.)
We smoked together. There was just this combination of my jealousy, insecurity, feeling like an outsider, my imbalanced chemicals due to not having my meds for a couple of days, and the anxiety that can come on bad pot trips.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I just stopped talking, walked away, and did my own thing: have an anxiety attack alone. I didn't know what else to do. I couldn't tell them what I was thinking, because I don't want her to know I like her in that way, because I'm afraid I'd scare her off. I wish I could tell her, but I know it would just be a pointless statement. The response would be, "Geoff, I like you as a friend...", and then things would get awkward, and she would stop talking to me as much, and things would just sizzle out.
Anyway, when they came up to me, I just couldn't talk, so I didn't. I just kind of shook my head 'yes' when they asked if I was alright. I didn't know what to do.
When they dropped me off, as I was getting out, I told them that I was sorry for acting so weird. That I had had a panic attack. They of course said that I have nothing to be sorry about, and that we'd see each other again Friday (we have the same class MWF).
So, at least they didn't point and laugh at me, but I don't know if I'll be able to look this girl in the eyes anymore. I feel like
(1) I completely ruined any chances I may have possibly had with her... girls always want confidence, and I just pathetically folded like a soggy biscuit. This is probably the hardest thing. I feel like I can't let women see the real me, because I'm sensitive down inside (hence why I'm so caring and loving with other people), and from what experience has taught me, anxiety to a woman is one of the most unattractive characteristics a man could ever have.
(2) Even if there was no attraction in this situation, I'd still feel embarrassed to show my face again. I just look pathetic. Maybe over dramatic. Maybe like I was trying to be an attention . Like a passive aggressive "feel sorry for me" douche. I feel like I just showed up to class and pissed my pants in front of everyone. I've lost all respect.
If I obviously can't be in a relationship with her, I don't want to lose her as a friend. But I just feel like I completely showed her an ugly side of myself and I hope I didn't change the whole dynamic irreversibly. I hope I don't feel uncomfortable around her from now on.
I wish I could just have a conversation with her and tell here what I'm going through, because she probably thinks I'm acting really weird, and so soon since last Friday when she broke up with her boyfriend. I know she's making the mental connection, she has to be. If I don't say something soon, I'm afraid she'll come to her own conclusions, which is almost worse. But what am I supposed to say to her without scaring her off? I feel like I'm in a catch 22. I didn't ask for these feelings. Why can't I just be okay with having an awesome friend? Why do I always have to let sexual attraction screw things up?
Edit: I try not to be too hard on myself, and I've come a long way in the past in learning to love and respect myself. I'm not always like this. But I am right now. I'm still slightly high, still fresh from the emasculation event described above, and still haven't had my meds (I'll resume them tomorrow).
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a senior in college, who's on top of that a bit older than most students... I'm 26 (long story). This is going to sound like a classic awkward teenage-hormone-turmoil scenario a middle school boy would go through. Don't worry... I'm aware. I thought I'd have my crap together at this point.
Anyway,
I like this girl, but she is my friend. I friend-zoned myself. I didn't make a move romantically when I met her because she had a boyfriend, and I just couldn't. I didn't want to be "that douche" that wrecks (or miserably fails at wrecking) relationships. At the same time, I didn't want to not know her. After we studied together for the first time, we hit it off so much that we ditched studying, she ended up going back to my place, we smoked, and we had one of the most intellectually stimulating existential conversations I've ever had. I had learned that she had a boyfriend early on, so that's why I "didn't make a move".
This is why I like this girl. She's very "hipster" hot (if that's a thing), but I also fell for her personality. I feel like she gets me in a way that nobody I've ever talked to before has. We wonder together, philosophize together, joke together.
I'm not an idiot. I knew that if I were to be friends with her, I'd have to stuff my feelings, and for a while it wasn't hard. I'm in college and had been going on a couple of coffee 'dates' with different girls for a couple of weeks ('dates' as in one on one with a girl trying to get to know her better). These all fizzled out, and it was okay, because at least I was friends with this cool chick.
Last Friday, she came to me and opened up about her and her boyfriend. That she was thinking of breaking up with him, and wanted my advice. I sat there with her for about two hours talking her step by step through the process, and she really opened up about everything, even her sexual life with him and how it was dissatisfying (he had ED and premature ejaculation)... she stood with him a year while this was going on, so it's not like she's shallow. I talked her into breaking up with him. In her best interest. Though it meant that she was now single, I really only had her best interest in mind. Later that day she did break up with him, and we talked about it over the phone afterwords.
Even though logic told me that it's a horrible time to start feeling feelings for her again, just as (1), She's in that recovery stage, even though she seems to be relieved and content. She's probably not ready for another relationship so fast, and if so, I'd just be "rebound guy". (2), I hear this all the time from other guys... if I've just showed myself to be her 'girlfriend' that she comes to for advice, she will only see me as a friend and nothing more. Or something. I don't know. I think it all comes back to the "don't be the nice guy, because they finish last" philosophy. It makes sense.
So, now that the backstory is all laid out, here's what happened today:
Today, me, this girl, and her friend went to this cool creek/park place. I've known her friend, a guy, for a couple of weeks now, as we see each other occasionally. I have no problem with him. He's a cool, kind, genuine guy. I'm sure we may end up friends in our own right.
I can just tell that they have a closer friendship. The way she talks to him, how he can just be more playful with her. It's ugly, but I felt jealous. And then insecure. Like an outsider. I just felt left out. I'm even pretty sure after they dropped me off, they went on to still hang out. Like I'm not as important or something. I was acting very quiet though, so I don't quite blame them.
(A BIG BTW: I've not taken my Cymbalta or Adderall XR for three days in a row now, because I ran out and couldn't get refilled until tomorrow. So, obviously, that has something to do with my state.)
We smoked together. There was just this combination of my jealousy, insecurity, feeling like an outsider, my imbalanced chemicals due to not having my meds for a couple of days, and the anxiety that can come on bad pot trips.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I just stopped talking, walked away, and did my own thing: have an anxiety attack alone. I didn't know what else to do. I couldn't tell them what I was thinking, because I don't want her to know I like her in that way, because I'm afraid I'd scare her off. I wish I could tell her, but I know it would just be a pointless statement. The response would be, "Geoff, I like you as a friend...", and then things would get awkward, and she would stop talking to me as much, and things would just sizzle out.
Anyway, when they came up to me, I just couldn't talk, so I didn't. I just kind of shook my head 'yes' when they asked if I was alright. I didn't know what to do.
When they dropped me off, as I was getting out, I told them that I was sorry for acting so weird. That I had had a panic attack. They of course said that I have nothing to be sorry about, and that we'd see each other again Friday (we have the same class MWF).
So, at least they didn't point and laugh at me, but I don't know if I'll be able to look this girl in the eyes anymore. I feel like
(1) I completely ruined any chances I may have possibly had with her... girls always want confidence, and I just pathetically folded like a soggy biscuit. This is probably the hardest thing. I feel like I can't let women see the real me, because I'm sensitive down inside (hence why I'm so caring and loving with other people), and from what experience has taught me, anxiety to a woman is one of the most unattractive characteristics a man could ever have.
(2) Even if there was no attraction in this situation, I'd still feel embarrassed to show my face again. I just look pathetic. Maybe over dramatic. Maybe like I was trying to be an attention . Like a passive aggressive "feel sorry for me" douche. I feel like I just showed up to class and pissed my pants in front of everyone. I've lost all respect.
If I obviously can't be in a relationship with her, I don't want to lose her as a friend. But I just feel like I completely showed her an ugly side of myself and I hope I didn't change the whole dynamic irreversibly. I hope I don't feel uncomfortable around her from now on.
I wish I could just have a conversation with her and tell here what I'm going through, because she probably thinks I'm acting really weird, and so soon since last Friday when she broke up with her boyfriend. I know she's making the mental connection, she has to be. If I don't say something soon, I'm afraid she'll come to her own conclusions, which is almost worse. But what am I supposed to say to her without scaring her off? I feel like I'm in a catch 22. I didn't ask for these feelings. Why can't I just be okay with having an awesome friend? Why do I always have to let sexual attraction screw things up?
Edit: I try not to be too hard on myself, and I've come a long way in the past in learning to love and respect myself. I'm not always like this. But I am right now. I'm still slightly high, still fresh from the emasculation event described above, and still haven't had my meds (I'll resume them tomorrow).
Best answer: Please don't talk to her until you get your meds refilled and on board and you're back to who you normally are. I don't want to challenge your reality but I think it's completely possible you're overreacting because you're withdrawing from an SNRI, which can be a wretched experience all on its own, without also withdrawing from Adderall and getting high while you're upset.
You don't want her to know you like her because she might not reciprocate, and you felt some complex and painful things. But none of them really arose because of anything she did - it was all about your perception of her relationship to her other friend, and, bluntly, your perceptions are pretty altered right now. Maybe just have a cup of tea and a hot bath and some quiet time on your own, and pick this back up when you're better equipped to deal with it? Your friend is in the highly labile, vulnerable period right after a big break-up, she's got her own stuff to deal with, and right now what a good friend would do would be to help with her well-being, not focus on his own complicated feelings. If you can't do that, much better to withdraw a little bit.
posted by gingerest at 10:50 PM on April 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
You don't want her to know you like her because she might not reciprocate, and you felt some complex and painful things. But none of them really arose because of anything she did - it was all about your perception of her relationship to her other friend, and, bluntly, your perceptions are pretty altered right now. Maybe just have a cup of tea and a hot bath and some quiet time on your own, and pick this back up when you're better equipped to deal with it? Your friend is in the highly labile, vulnerable period right after a big break-up, she's got her own stuff to deal with, and right now what a good friend would do would be to help with her well-being, not focus on his own complicated feelings. If you can't do that, much better to withdraw a little bit.
posted by gingerest at 10:50 PM on April 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Dude.
Dude.
She doesn't fucking care.
If she smokes out with people on the regular (and it kind of sounds like she does), then she's almost certainly seen people get anxious and/or distant when they've got a head full of smoke. That's just a thing that happens sometimes when people smoke weed. Stoners don't fucking care when someone gets a little bit weird, because people get weird all the time when they're high.
She may or may not think of you as the sort of guy that she would want to date, but I would be dollars to donuts that her thoughts on the matter have zero to do with whether or not you got a little bit anxious when you got high.
Also, in terms of weed-fueled anxiety attacks, your actions don't even sound particularly egregious. The last time I ate edibles I ended up going to the emergency room because I thought I was having a heart attack. The friend with whom I shared them went home and began packing all of her valuables into bug-out bags and making plans to flee the city because she thought society was collapsing. You getting quiet and distant doesn't even rate. She'll probably ask how you're doing the next time she sees you; make a quick laughing apology for getting anxious and then forget about it. She doesn't care.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:59 PM on April 15, 2015 [49 favorites]
Dude.
She doesn't fucking care.
If she smokes out with people on the regular (and it kind of sounds like she does), then she's almost certainly seen people get anxious and/or distant when they've got a head full of smoke. That's just a thing that happens sometimes when people smoke weed. Stoners don't fucking care when someone gets a little bit weird, because people get weird all the time when they're high.
She may or may not think of you as the sort of guy that she would want to date, but I would be dollars to donuts that her thoughts on the matter have zero to do with whether or not you got a little bit anxious when you got high.
Also, in terms of weed-fueled anxiety attacks, your actions don't even sound particularly egregious. The last time I ate edibles I ended up going to the emergency room because I thought I was having a heart attack. The friend with whom I shared them went home and began packing all of her valuables into bug-out bags and making plans to flee the city because she thought society was collapsing. You getting quiet and distant doesn't even rate. She'll probably ask how you're doing the next time she sees you; make a quick laughing apology for getting anxious and then forget about it. She doesn't care.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:59 PM on April 15, 2015 [49 favorites]
I flat out fell on the floor and bawled my eyes out on the office floor of this dude I liked because the stress of college got to me. I mean, folded up and cried like a child because he asked me how I was. I was forty four freaking years old at the time and just finishing my BA. I wasn't a child to be bawling on the floor.
My friend, because he was my friend, was completely cool with it because he knew I'm mentally interesting (bipolar). I mean, it caught him off guard to have me crying on his floor, but yeah... he got over it. From what you said, I'm pretty sure your friends probably think you were just having an off day and you should just proceed as if nothing happened.
Friends figure these things out because they're your friends. They don't hold it against you. I can't tell you what to do with your feelings because my friend and I were close despite the fact that I liked him and he didn't feel as strongly for him.
posted by patheral at 11:02 PM on April 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
My friend, because he was my friend, was completely cool with it because he knew I'm mentally interesting (bipolar). I mean, it caught him off guard to have me crying on his floor, but yeah... he got over it. From what you said, I'm pretty sure your friends probably think you were just having an off day and you should just proceed as if nothing happened.
Friends figure these things out because they're your friends. They don't hold it against you. I can't tell you what to do with your feelings because my friend and I were close despite the fact that I liked him and he didn't feel as strongly for him.
posted by patheral at 11:02 PM on April 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Everyone will forget, and no one will care, UNLESS you continue to act weird about it.
This will completely go away and not be a big deal at all if you just act like it never happened, and play it down if anyone brings it up(which is VERY unlikely, trust me).
I've had a lot of similar experiences, and i've pretty much been you. I've also been on the other side of it, or just been present. That's always how it played out.
Parasite unseen really has it here.
posted by emptythought at 11:06 PM on April 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
This will completely go away and not be a big deal at all if you just act like it never happened, and play it down if anyone brings it up(which is VERY unlikely, trust me).
I've had a lot of similar experiences, and i've pretty much been you. I've also been on the other side of it, or just been present. That's always how it played out.
Parasite unseen really has it here.
posted by emptythought at 11:06 PM on April 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
It sounds like it really wasn't a big deal to them at all. Those kinds of things happen when people smoke weed. My real question for you, would be whether it's a good idea for you to smoke when you're on meds like that? I sometimes go through periods of depression/anxiety and decided that drugs and alcohol are something that I only partake in very, very rarely.
Um, you did the right thing not making a move while she had a boyfriend. But I think you crossed a line when she asked for advice and you told her to break up with him. I think that if she finds out now that you have feelings for her, she may well think that you told her to break up with him because of that, even if it was actually for the best to end things. If you value your friendship with her (the actual friendship, not hanging out with her with the hope that something will happen) then I think you need to leave her alone, at least for now.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 11:38 PM on April 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Um, you did the right thing not making a move while she had a boyfriend. But I think you crossed a line when she asked for advice and you told her to break up with him. I think that if she finds out now that you have feelings for her, she may well think that you told her to break up with him because of that, even if it was actually for the best to end things. If you value your friendship with her (the actual friendship, not hanging out with her with the hope that something will happen) then I think you need to leave her alone, at least for now.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 11:38 PM on April 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
The MOST important thing was buried in an aside!!!
Stopping Cymbalta like this can be extremely dangerous. It has a short half-life and side-effects can manifest in very intense ways. Does your psychiatrist know you haven't taken it for 3+ days?
posted by barnone at 11:47 PM on April 15, 2015 [42 favorites]
Stopping Cymbalta like this can be extremely dangerous. It has a short half-life and side-effects can manifest in very intense ways. Does your psychiatrist know you haven't taken it for 3+ days?
posted by barnone at 11:47 PM on April 15, 2015 [42 favorites]
I think you are being WAAAAY too hard on yourself. Emasculating? Because you had a rough smoke? It happens to everyone once in a while and is truly NBD unless you make it one.
As far as your feelings for her: give her some time to decompress from the breakup. A couple of years with someone is different than someone you've only been dating for a few months. And RELAX! Be your usual chill self with her. You don't have to romance her, but you can definitely be slightly flirty and test the waters with her in a month or two.
posted by deliciae at 11:48 PM on April 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
As far as your feelings for her: give her some time to decompress from the breakup. A couple of years with someone is different than someone you've only been dating for a few months. And RELAX! Be your usual chill self with her. You don't have to romance her, but you can definitely be slightly flirty and test the waters with her in a month or two.
posted by deliciae at 11:48 PM on April 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
So, I personally believe that having unactionable attraction towards a friend doesn't always mean dooming the friendship, but it's a tricky road to navigate and requires being very, very self-aware and honest about one's emotions and limits. That can be a pretty tall order when you're in the throes of limerence, and especially if you're younger and/or not had a lot of emotional interpersonal experience.
Right now, you're still thinking and acting like you want this girl to be your girlfriend. Your internal monologue is still tilted towards whether her friendships with other men are something to be jealous of, whether you've "ruined" your chances with her. You seem able to recognize logical reasons not to pursue the relationship, but as you've probably figured out, working through the logic doesn't always change your feelings.
I don't think you're a bad guy and I do think you care about her as a person, but I do think you aren't managing your romantic feelings towards her in a way that's sustainable in the long run.
On a separate thread, you also seem to have some stuff to work through about how you view yourself, and especially related to dating/relationships. Part of this is that you just recently had an anxiety attack AND an interruption in your meds, and those are probably making you feel extra pessimistic and shitty about yourself, but some of your earlier questions seem to indicate that this is kind of ongoing.
Lots of men have anxiety problems and successful relationships with women. It's not really on my radar of unattractive characteristics (at the risk of over-sharing, it's almost the reverse: as someone who has anxiety issues, I feel more comfortable with people who understand what it feels like to have my brain seized up in something that I know is not logical.) You're hyper-attuned to anything that might be interpreted negatively, which again, is an anxiety thing.
I know that saying therapy on here is kind of a cliche, and I don't really like to in most cases because I think most people posting on here don't really need the reminder that it exists, and since you mentioned meds I'm sure you're aware of it too. But while I'm a big believer in better living through chemistry (no sarcasm--psych meds save lives, and there is no amount of willpower that will fix a broken brain), I think sometimes there are still diseased patterns of thought and behavior that can't be fixed by medicine. Sometimes it's that you've gotten so used to the story that depression or anxiety told you that you've internalized it; sometimes it comes from coping strategies that you used to get by before treatment. If you're comfortable with therapy and can find/are willing to look for a good therapist, that can work wonders. If not, even reading or working through a book (Feeling Good is a common rec; Feel The Fear and Do It Anyway may also help you) can help. Support groups can also be a way to get comfortable with identifying and understanding behavior in a way that's less intensely focused than therapy. Something will work for you, even if you have to shop around a while to find it.
posted by kagredon at 2:25 AM on April 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Right now, you're still thinking and acting like you want this girl to be your girlfriend. Your internal monologue is still tilted towards whether her friendships with other men are something to be jealous of, whether you've "ruined" your chances with her. You seem able to recognize logical reasons not to pursue the relationship, but as you've probably figured out, working through the logic doesn't always change your feelings.
I don't think you're a bad guy and I do think you care about her as a person, but I do think you aren't managing your romantic feelings towards her in a way that's sustainable in the long run.
On a separate thread, you also seem to have some stuff to work through about how you view yourself, and especially related to dating/relationships. Part of this is that you just recently had an anxiety attack AND an interruption in your meds, and those are probably making you feel extra pessimistic and shitty about yourself, but some of your earlier questions seem to indicate that this is kind of ongoing.
Lots of men have anxiety problems and successful relationships with women. It's not really on my radar of unattractive characteristics (at the risk of over-sharing, it's almost the reverse: as someone who has anxiety issues, I feel more comfortable with people who understand what it feels like to have my brain seized up in something that I know is not logical.) You're hyper-attuned to anything that might be interpreted negatively, which again, is an anxiety thing.
I know that saying therapy on here is kind of a cliche, and I don't really like to in most cases because I think most people posting on here don't really need the reminder that it exists, and since you mentioned meds I'm sure you're aware of it too. But while I'm a big believer in better living through chemistry (no sarcasm--psych meds save lives, and there is no amount of willpower that will fix a broken brain), I think sometimes there are still diseased patterns of thought and behavior that can't be fixed by medicine. Sometimes it's that you've gotten so used to the story that depression or anxiety told you that you've internalized it; sometimes it comes from coping strategies that you used to get by before treatment. If you're comfortable with therapy and can find/are willing to look for a good therapist, that can work wonders. If not, even reading or working through a book (Feeling Good is a common rec; Feel The Fear and Do It Anyway may also help you) can help. Support groups can also be a way to get comfortable with identifying and understanding behavior in a way that's less intensely focused than therapy. Something will work for you, even if you have to shop around a while to find it.
posted by kagredon at 2:25 AM on April 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Psychiatric nurse here.
You had a normal reaction, not even including not taking your medications. Please get back on them. Don't try to work things through with this situation until you've been on them. People who abruptly withdraw are my bread and butter, so to speak.
This does not sound like an emasculating experience unless you make it one.
posted by RainyJay at 2:41 AM on April 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
You had a normal reaction, not even including not taking your medications. Please get back on them. Don't try to work things through with this situation until you've been on them. People who abruptly withdraw are my bread and butter, so to speak.
This does not sound like an emasculating experience unless you make it one.
posted by RainyJay at 2:41 AM on April 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
Definitely don't let yourself fall into the pattern down the road of accidentally (for varying degrees of accident) going off-meds and generating a extra drama around something that's already been bothering you. It can become an unhealthy pattern that can be easily rationalized subconsciously or consciously as a way of generating "disruption" in your life and potentially forcing you to confront things that you should confront eventually, but in an unhealthy or unpredictable way.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it can develop into a pattern, and certain meds just can't be treated as "skippable" for even a day, it is just too disruptive to your homeostasis, your general balance and well-being. Adderall is very commonly skipped, and many docs encourage that because it reduces tolerance and it's a healthy pattern monthly or weekly to wean yourself off a bit and take a break. This varies for individuals and your doctor should be consulted before making any changes.
The Cymbalta on the other hand, is a no-skip-never-ever medication (unless you're weaning off intentionally).
One of the things we have to deal with when medicating a psychiatric condition is getting into the extremely bulletproof and often uncharacteristically but exceptionally reliable (for many of us it's a huge adjustment) habit of never skipping certain meds whatsoever, and with many meds, it's just as important to never accidentally take a second dose when trying to compensate for forgetting about the first dose.
Here are three tactics to incorporate into your "never skip Cymbalta" pattern:
1) Consider mail-order for the Cymbalta. Yes you'll have to still pick up the stimulant medication but mail-order prescriptions are on a 90-day rotation, automatically refilled, with a cheaper overall co-pay.
2) If you don't go with mail order, try to fill at least your Cymbalta script 1-2 days before you run out, several months out of the year rather than every 30 days, to set aside a small stockpile of 5-7 days' worth to mostly forget about and resort to in emergencies, but don't get into the habit of relying on that stockpile because you'll just be back in the same boat.
If you have insurance, your insurance should allow you to fill it every 28 days in most cases, even though the default script is almost always 30 days. Your doctor and insurance company know you can take advantage of this to get a little extra medication each year, and on balance it's a very tiny window that doesn't significantly enable patterns of abuse.
The insurance company gets more money in extra co-pays from you compared to the 90-day mail order plan, so they don't typically balk at this, but your mileage may vary with more expensive meds. Your mileage also may vary if you're constantly trying to maximize your Adderall scripts because it might look like you're trying to gather a recreational stash, but your doc is most likely dating your Adderall scripts to be at 30-day intervals anyway.
3) The most important trick of all, which is only appropriate with the Cymbalta -- if you need a refill and are simply broke for the next 2 days, your doctor hasn't approved it yet but you're completely out, or the pharmacy doesn't have enough to fill your full prescription, most pharmacists will happily give you 1-3 pills up-front, and then will subtract it a couple of days later when you are able to get the rest. This works best when you go to the same pharmacy consistently, and there's nothing untoward about it unless you try it with any drug with abuse potential like Adderall.
posted by aydeejones at 3:09 AM on April 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it can develop into a pattern, and certain meds just can't be treated as "skippable" for even a day, it is just too disruptive to your homeostasis, your general balance and well-being. Adderall is very commonly skipped, and many docs encourage that because it reduces tolerance and it's a healthy pattern monthly or weekly to wean yourself off a bit and take a break. This varies for individuals and your doctor should be consulted before making any changes.
The Cymbalta on the other hand, is a no-skip-never-ever medication (unless you're weaning off intentionally).
One of the things we have to deal with when medicating a psychiatric condition is getting into the extremely bulletproof and often uncharacteristically but exceptionally reliable (for many of us it's a huge adjustment) habit of never skipping certain meds whatsoever, and with many meds, it's just as important to never accidentally take a second dose when trying to compensate for forgetting about the first dose.
Here are three tactics to incorporate into your "never skip Cymbalta" pattern:
1) Consider mail-order for the Cymbalta. Yes you'll have to still pick up the stimulant medication but mail-order prescriptions are on a 90-day rotation, automatically refilled, with a cheaper overall co-pay.
2) If you don't go with mail order, try to fill at least your Cymbalta script 1-2 days before you run out, several months out of the year rather than every 30 days, to set aside a small stockpile of 5-7 days' worth to mostly forget about and resort to in emergencies, but don't get into the habit of relying on that stockpile because you'll just be back in the same boat.
If you have insurance, your insurance should allow you to fill it every 28 days in most cases, even though the default script is almost always 30 days. Your doctor and insurance company know you can take advantage of this to get a little extra medication each year, and on balance it's a very tiny window that doesn't significantly enable patterns of abuse.
The insurance company gets more money in extra co-pays from you compared to the 90-day mail order plan, so they don't typically balk at this, but your mileage may vary with more expensive meds. Your mileage also may vary if you're constantly trying to maximize your Adderall scripts because it might look like you're trying to gather a recreational stash, but your doc is most likely dating your Adderall scripts to be at 30-day intervals anyway.
3) The most important trick of all, which is only appropriate with the Cymbalta -- if you need a refill and are simply broke for the next 2 days, your doctor hasn't approved it yet but you're completely out, or the pharmacy doesn't have enough to fill your full prescription, most pharmacists will happily give you 1-3 pills up-front, and then will subtract it a couple of days later when you are able to get the rest. This works best when you go to the same pharmacy consistently, and there's nothing untoward about it unless you try it with any drug with abuse potential like Adderall.
posted by aydeejones at 3:09 AM on April 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
1. It sounds like they're cool with it and that you handled the moment well, with minimal awkwardness. It probably felt much worse for you than it appeared to them. You're okay! Really. You're okay.
2. I don't think she sees you in that way, and if she doesn't now, she probably never will. Might be a good idea to start the getting-over-her process if you want to continue the platonic friendship.
3. There's some wording in your question ("friendzone," "don't be the nice guy," "emasculation event") that kinda sounds like you're buying into that sort of gender-stereotyping alpha-male pick-up-artisty dating bullshit, and I think it might be backfiring for you, as it so often does. Women don't work like that, and clever intellectual women (your type, it sounds like) are especially likely to be turned off by that sort of thinking.
4. You’ve probably learned your lesson about going off Cymbalta cold-turkey like that. In the best-case scenario, it feels like hell; in the worst-case scenario it really breaks your brain. Most pharmacies have automatic refill programs and will call you when your prescription's ready, so enroll in that if you haven't already - it makes this shit so much easier. When I was on Cymbalta and wasn't sure if I'd get my next refill in time, once I got down to the last pill or two I'd take half doses to stretch things out. You may get withdrawal symptoms on half doses, but it's still better than no dose.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:06 AM on April 16, 2015 [20 favorites]
2. I don't think she sees you in that way, and if she doesn't now, she probably never will. Might be a good idea to start the getting-over-her process if you want to continue the platonic friendship.
3. There's some wording in your question ("friendzone," "don't be the nice guy," "emasculation event") that kinda sounds like you're buying into that sort of gender-stereotyping alpha-male pick-up-artisty dating bullshit, and I think it might be backfiring for you, as it so often does. Women don't work like that, and clever intellectual women (your type, it sounds like) are especially likely to be turned off by that sort of thinking.
4. You’ve probably learned your lesson about going off Cymbalta cold-turkey like that. In the best-case scenario, it feels like hell; in the worst-case scenario it really breaks your brain. Most pharmacies have automatic refill programs and will call you when your prescription's ready, so enroll in that if you haven't already - it makes this shit so much easier. When I was on Cymbalta and wasn't sure if I'd get my next refill in time, once I got down to the last pill or two I'd take half doses to stretch things out. You may get withdrawal symptoms on half doses, but it's still better than no dose.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:06 AM on April 16, 2015 [20 favorites]
It feels like a lot of the anxiety was wrapped up in ideas about what women want, what men should be, and how relationships should work:
I friend-zoned myself.
I hear this all the time from other guys... if I've just showed myself to be her 'girlfriend' that she comes to for advice, she will only see me as a friend and nothing more.
I think it all comes back to the "don't be the nice guy, because they finish last" philosophy. It makes sense.
girls always want confidence
I feel like I can't let women see the real me, because I'm sensitive down inside
anxiety to a woman is one of the most unattractive characteristics a man could ever have.
the emasculation event
A lot of these statements seem to come from ideas that ALL women want the same thing, that ALL men should act the same way, and that any variation is unwanted. This is very simplistic and, frankly, a little insulting to all the wonderful women you'll meet in your life. Can't they be the ones to decide if they like confident 'alpha' guys, or shy guys, or quiet guys?
As men, we're brought up with a very narrow and rigid idea of what masculinity is. There are a handful of characteristics that are meant to be manly and good, and everything else is feminine and therefore unattractive. These ideas are pervasive, and it's hard to see past them sometimes. And there are definitely women who believe these ideas about masculinity, and for them things like confidence and strength and so on are attractive, and 'feminine' things like sensitivity are less attractive in men.
But you're doing yourself a disservice if you let these ideas define what kind of a man you want to be, and if you think that every woman is looking for that kind of man. There are plenty of nice guys, sensitive guys, feminine guys, and anxious guys who are in relationships with women who adore them, women who have no interest in über 'masculine' men. This woman you're interested in now - maybe that's her, maybe it's not. Maybe she only sees you as a friend, maybe not. Regardless of what she wants, you won't be helping either of you by trying to pretend to be the kind of person you presume she wants.
Once you're back on your meds, perhaps you'll see that she doesn't consider this a big deal at all, and you'll still be good friends. It's only as big a deal as you make it. If you're interested in a relationship, you could try to ask how she feels about dating again, and perhaps ask her out on a date. If it's too soon, or if she doesn't see you that way, that's fine too. You've got an awesome friend.
Finally - it may help to realise that terms like 'friend zone' and 'nice guys' are often used by people who see themselves in these roles, but who are often neither nice nor friendly. To generalise, these people often approach relationships as a kind of transaction, where in return for time spent together, and listening to her problems, the nice guy therefore deserves to be rewarded with sex and a relationship. I'm not sure if you recognise any aspects of your friendship with this woman in that kind of description, but if so it would be worthwhile having a fantastic, stimulating discussion about the nature of sexuality, how it is shaped and defined by our society, and why women's sexuality is often treated as a thing to be withheld, sold, or otherwise traded.
posted by twirlypen at 4:40 AM on April 16, 2015 [51 favorites]
I friend-zoned myself.
I hear this all the time from other guys... if I've just showed myself to be her 'girlfriend' that she comes to for advice, she will only see me as a friend and nothing more.
I think it all comes back to the "don't be the nice guy, because they finish last" philosophy. It makes sense.
girls always want confidence
I feel like I can't let women see the real me, because I'm sensitive down inside
anxiety to a woman is one of the most unattractive characteristics a man could ever have.
the emasculation event
A lot of these statements seem to come from ideas that ALL women want the same thing, that ALL men should act the same way, and that any variation is unwanted. This is very simplistic and, frankly, a little insulting to all the wonderful women you'll meet in your life. Can't they be the ones to decide if they like confident 'alpha' guys, or shy guys, or quiet guys?
As men, we're brought up with a very narrow and rigid idea of what masculinity is. There are a handful of characteristics that are meant to be manly and good, and everything else is feminine and therefore unattractive. These ideas are pervasive, and it's hard to see past them sometimes. And there are definitely women who believe these ideas about masculinity, and for them things like confidence and strength and so on are attractive, and 'feminine' things like sensitivity are less attractive in men.
But you're doing yourself a disservice if you let these ideas define what kind of a man you want to be, and if you think that every woman is looking for that kind of man. There are plenty of nice guys, sensitive guys, feminine guys, and anxious guys who are in relationships with women who adore them, women who have no interest in über 'masculine' men. This woman you're interested in now - maybe that's her, maybe it's not. Maybe she only sees you as a friend, maybe not. Regardless of what she wants, you won't be helping either of you by trying to pretend to be the kind of person you presume she wants.
Once you're back on your meds, perhaps you'll see that she doesn't consider this a big deal at all, and you'll still be good friends. It's only as big a deal as you make it. If you're interested in a relationship, you could try to ask how she feels about dating again, and perhaps ask her out on a date. If it's too soon, or if she doesn't see you that way, that's fine too. You've got an awesome friend.
Finally - it may help to realise that terms like 'friend zone' and 'nice guys' are often used by people who see themselves in these roles, but who are often neither nice nor friendly. To generalise, these people often approach relationships as a kind of transaction, where in return for time spent together, and listening to her problems, the nice guy therefore deserves to be rewarded with sex and a relationship. I'm not sure if you recognise any aspects of your friendship with this woman in that kind of description, but if so it would be worthwhile having a fantastic, stimulating discussion about the nature of sexuality, how it is shaped and defined by our society, and why women's sexuality is often treated as a thing to be withheld, sold, or otherwise traded.
posted by twirlypen at 4:40 AM on April 16, 2015 [51 favorites]
So everyone has pretty much got it right with the panic attack not being a big deal at all to her. You're human, dude. This thing happens to us all. It really does. She gets it. And if she didn't then really she's not the same cool person you described.
As for you and her? Man, just be yourself. Stop psyching yourself out. She has opened up a lot to you and she clearly sees you as a friend. Can there be more there? Well, you'll have to show interest to find out. Know this, though, you can survive whatever happens if you don't get what you want. But you can't keep being her confidante and giving her advice that is in your best interest, too. That's sketchy and you know it.
posted by inturnaround at 5:48 AM on April 16, 2015
As for you and her? Man, just be yourself. Stop psyching yourself out. She has opened up a lot to you and she clearly sees you as a friend. Can there be more there? Well, you'll have to show interest to find out. Know this, though, you can survive whatever happens if you don't get what you want. But you can't keep being her confidante and giving her advice that is in your best interest, too. That's sketchy and you know it.
posted by inturnaround at 5:48 AM on April 16, 2015
I came to say exactly what twirlypen said.
There is no "friend-zone." There are people who want to date you and people who do not and some of them are your friends and some of them are not. Plenty of women, in fact, prefer to be friends with a guy first, prior to dating. I'm one of them.
Also, not all women want a super-confident guy.
You didn't actually do anything wrong in this situation, but you're thinking of it wrong and in a way that makes it much more narrow and more difficult for you. There's no friend-zone, there's no personality characteristic that "all women" want--you and your friend are just people, living. I will say she can probably tell that you have feelings for her, though. I cannot tell from your story how she feels about that. Maybe you could talk to her and see. It is a very rare situation that is not improved when blown open and aired out a bit. If she likes you back, good. If she doesn't, then you will be forced to move on and find someone who can return your affection.
posted by millipede at 6:22 AM on April 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
There is no "friend-zone." There are people who want to date you and people who do not and some of them are your friends and some of them are not. Plenty of women, in fact, prefer to be friends with a guy first, prior to dating. I'm one of them.
Also, not all women want a super-confident guy.
You didn't actually do anything wrong in this situation, but you're thinking of it wrong and in a way that makes it much more narrow and more difficult for you. There's no friend-zone, there's no personality characteristic that "all women" want--you and your friend are just people, living. I will say she can probably tell that you have feelings for her, though. I cannot tell from your story how she feels about that. Maybe you could talk to her and see. It is a very rare situation that is not improved when blown open and aired out a bit. If she likes you back, good. If she doesn't, then you will be forced to move on and find someone who can return your affection.
posted by millipede at 6:22 AM on April 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
Everyone has covered the past events - I want to give you a tip about the future. Whenever you are ready to "make your move" (as you say), keep in mind that you don't have to start out with a huge declaration of love and how you've pined for her all these years waiting for her to be free. Instead, you can just ask her out: "Hey, how about you and I going on a date sometime - you know, a real date?" and then see where it goes from there. Things might develop, or they might not, but you're not setting yourself up for a big all-or-nothing potential disaster.
posted by CathyG at 7:04 AM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by CathyG at 7:04 AM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
girls always want confidence
Where did you learn this from?
anxiety to a woman is one of the most unattractive characteristics a man could ever have
What is very very unattractive is making your anxiety, or other issue, someone else's problem to deal with. It's not anxiety per se but how you deal with it that counts.
If you are one of those people who can have a good friendship with someone you're attracted to while you're still young and full of hormones, you're a rare soul. I have found those sort of friendships are wonderful, even though they are full of things that aren't said. You know you were feeling jealous of the other guy but she doesn't. You don't need to say anything about your head fit. Also please stop thinking the situation was emasculating. Women will choose who they will regardless of how ...competitive... men are.
And sort your meds out.
posted by glasseyes at 7:21 AM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Where did you learn this from?
anxiety to a woman is one of the most unattractive characteristics a man could ever have
What is very very unattractive is making your anxiety, or other issue, someone else's problem to deal with. It's not anxiety per se but how you deal with it that counts.
If you are one of those people who can have a good friendship with someone you're attracted to while you're still young and full of hormones, you're a rare soul. I have found those sort of friendships are wonderful, even though they are full of things that aren't said. You know you were feeling jealous of the other guy but she doesn't. You don't need to say anything about your head fit. Also please stop thinking the situation was emasculating. Women will choose who they will regardless of how ...competitive... men are.
And sort your meds out.
posted by glasseyes at 7:21 AM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think everyone has covered everything else I'd say, but I'm wondering how old this woman and her friend are. For two reasons:
1) if she's a traditionally aged undergrad and is 18, 19, or 20 years old to your 26, she may feel more connected in a peer to peer way with a same age male friend you both were out with--not that either one of them are off the table as friends, but it may be helpful to you to acknowedge this is what you're picking up on and it's not a personal rejection of your "masculinity" or whatever;
2) She may in fact be looking at you as the much older (5+ years can feel like "much older" for a from-high school-and-parents'-house-straight-to-college undergraduate), cool, older brother/mentor type friend who knows she had a boyfriend and feels safe for strictly platonic intimacy. (I for one can't imagine talking about intimate sexual issues and asking for breakup advice with someone I had any sort of frisson of sexual tension with, at that age). Again, this would not be a personal reflection on you or a sign you need to "alpha up" or "had put yourself in the friend zone" but just a reflection of how young 20 year olds can be, and how "old" folks in their mid to late 20s can seem to them.
3) You may want to seek out other students of non-traditional age (grad students or even "townies", if necessary) to mix with in addition to your younger classmates.
posted by blue suede stockings at 7:58 AM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
1) if she's a traditionally aged undergrad and is 18, 19, or 20 years old to your 26, she may feel more connected in a peer to peer way with a same age male friend you both were out with--not that either one of them are off the table as friends, but it may be helpful to you to acknowedge this is what you're picking up on and it's not a personal rejection of your "masculinity" or whatever;
2) She may in fact be looking at you as the much older (5+ years can feel like "much older" for a from-high school-and-parents'-house-straight-to-college undergraduate), cool, older brother/mentor type friend who knows she had a boyfriend and feels safe for strictly platonic intimacy. (I for one can't imagine talking about intimate sexual issues and asking for breakup advice with someone I had any sort of frisson of sexual tension with, at that age). Again, this would not be a personal reflection on you or a sign you need to "alpha up" or "had put yourself in the friend zone" but just a reflection of how young 20 year olds can be, and how "old" folks in their mid to late 20s can seem to them.
3) You may want to seek out other students of non-traditional age (grad students or even "townies", if necessary) to mix with in addition to your younger classmates.
posted by blue suede stockings at 7:58 AM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
You are overthinking this massively. I say this to comfort you: you're not that important. You do not live that large in other people's heads. They're all worried about themselves.
Picking apart recent social events is classic anxiety. Made worse by being irresponsible with your medication. Get a hold of yourself and take appropriate care of yourself or you're going to lose so many years of your young adulthood to an illness that is almost always manageable.
Just as a friendly tip: narrative that includes phrases like "friendzone" and "girls" and "girls always want X" and "emasculation" suggests you are consuming enough misogynist culture to affect your perception of the world adversely. Consider doing less of that.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:10 AM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Picking apart recent social events is classic anxiety. Made worse by being irresponsible with your medication. Get a hold of yourself and take appropriate care of yourself or you're going to lose so many years of your young adulthood to an illness that is almost always manageable.
Just as a friendly tip: narrative that includes phrases like "friendzone" and "girls" and "girls always want X" and "emasculation" suggests you are consuming enough misogynist culture to affect your perception of the world adversely. Consider doing less of that.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:10 AM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Step 1 : Get back on your meds
Step 2 : Stop hanging out on websites or with people that tell you people have to act a certain way. That All men need to be x and all women want x. This is all complete & utter Bullshit. No wonder you are stressing out thinking that you have to act only one "correct" way or you won't achieve happiness. Seriously stop hanging out there, your anxiety levels will improve dramatically.
Step 3 : Stop worrying, if by some off chance she thought anything was up, and I'd bet cash money she didn't, vulnerability is how you build closeness not how you end it.
Step 4 : In a few weeks ask her out on a low pressure date.
Step 5 : Make sure to follow doctors orders & keep taking your meds.
Or don't follow any of those steps, like the websites I suggest you stay away from you are the only one that knows what will make you happy, I don't know you or this woman so I can only suggest things based on my experience. Except the med thing, do that.
posted by wwax at 8:45 AM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Step 2 : Stop hanging out on websites or with people that tell you people have to act a certain way. That All men need to be x and all women want x. This is all complete & utter Bullshit. No wonder you are stressing out thinking that you have to act only one "correct" way or you won't achieve happiness. Seriously stop hanging out there, your anxiety levels will improve dramatically.
Step 3 : Stop worrying, if by some off chance she thought anything was up, and I'd bet cash money she didn't, vulnerability is how you build closeness not how you end it.
Step 4 : In a few weeks ask her out on a low pressure date.
Step 5 : Make sure to follow doctors orders & keep taking your meds.
Or don't follow any of those steps, like the websites I suggest you stay away from you are the only one that knows what will make you happy, I don't know you or this woman so I can only suggest things based on my experience. Except the med thing, do that.
posted by wwax at 8:45 AM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
The stopping meds thing is pretty bad, honestly it would be better if you came back a week or two after restarting your medication since your framing of this problem will probably be completely different.
I've got to agree that your phrasing of "friendzone", "nice guys finish last", "emasculating", etc is a real problem. If you believe all that misogynistic claptrap, the only women who are going to put up with it are those that also believe it, which means they would be demanding you be alpha and never anxious. It's really a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Something else to keep in mind, younger women tend to appear a lot more forgiving of these things, because they have less experience and don't tend to fully realize where that road goes. So if you're finding it's much easier to be friends with 18 and 19 year olds than it is with women your own age, this is why. If approaching 26 year old women is harder, it's not because of your anxiety, they're just far less likely to stick around when you start casually mentioning how you got friendzoned because you aren't an alpha male.
(Also, be aware that if you did date this woman... if you ever had ED or any issues with sex that she's going to go off and talk about it at length with guys she met in class. Personally, I'd have a real issue with that. Not cool.)
posted by Dynex at 8:49 AM on April 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've got to agree that your phrasing of "friendzone", "nice guys finish last", "emasculating", etc is a real problem. If you believe all that misogynistic claptrap, the only women who are going to put up with it are those that also believe it, which means they would be demanding you be alpha and never anxious. It's really a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Something else to keep in mind, younger women tend to appear a lot more forgiving of these things, because they have less experience and don't tend to fully realize where that road goes. So if you're finding it's much easier to be friends with 18 and 19 year olds than it is with women your own age, this is why. If approaching 26 year old women is harder, it's not because of your anxiety, they're just far less likely to stick around when you start casually mentioning how you got friendzoned because you aren't an alpha male.
(Also, be aware that if you did date this woman... if you ever had ED or any issues with sex that she's going to go off and talk about it at length with guys she met in class. Personally, I'd have a real issue with that. Not cool.)
posted by Dynex at 8:49 AM on April 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
This happens all the time when people get high, and no one gives a fuck. You were stoned and got paranoid and quiet and then they asked why and you told them it was the pot. This is fine. Seriously, relax.
But, I mean, you shouldn't be friends with this girl. Not until you have moved on from wanting to be in a relationship with her. If you need to, put it out there and let the chips fall, but either way you're not in a position mentally to be friends with her until that is resolved.
posted by J. Wilson at 11:00 AM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
But, I mean, you shouldn't be friends with this girl. Not until you have moved on from wanting to be in a relationship with her. If you need to, put it out there and let the chips fall, but either way you're not in a position mentally to be friends with her until that is resolved.
posted by J. Wilson at 11:00 AM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Um, you're not her friend. You want to date her, you haven't told her, and you are feeling anxious about this because you are being dishonest. Stop lying to this girl, or better yet, stop hanging out with her, because you're not her friend. There is no "friend-zone". There are friends, and there people who are suitors and lying about it.
posted by domo at 11:23 AM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by domo at 11:23 AM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I talked her into breaking up with him.
No. You didn't. You talked to her about her problems. Your opinion was that she should break up with her boyfriend. After looking at her life, she decided that this was her opinion too. Do you really think you could have talked her into breaking up with someone who she was genuinely happy with? You simply made her feel more sure about the direction she was already planning on going.
I think there's a lot of confused thinking in your post. You sound like your brain is going too fast for its own good, and you're not seeing the situation clearly. My first advice to you is to calm down and back off (maybe cut down on caffeine, if you consume it), just so you don't drive yourself and this girl bonkers. My second advice is to just tell her the truth: you're feeling strong feelings for her, and have for a long time, and would like to date her when she's ready. That's it. No tricks, no rhetoric, just the truth. She can decide for herself how to react.
posted by sam_harms at 2:15 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
No. You didn't. You talked to her about her problems. Your opinion was that she should break up with her boyfriend. After looking at her life, she decided that this was her opinion too. Do you really think you could have talked her into breaking up with someone who she was genuinely happy with? You simply made her feel more sure about the direction she was already planning on going.
I think there's a lot of confused thinking in your post. You sound like your brain is going too fast for its own good, and you're not seeing the situation clearly. My first advice to you is to calm down and back off (maybe cut down on caffeine, if you consume it), just so you don't drive yourself and this girl bonkers. My second advice is to just tell her the truth: you're feeling strong feelings for her, and have for a long time, and would like to date her when she's ready. That's it. No tricks, no rhetoric, just the truth. She can decide for herself how to react.
posted by sam_harms at 2:15 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: As usual, there are a lot of good, diverse answers. So I’m going to look at them all and make a general reply.
The Common Answer:
The anxiety attack is no big deal. She doesn’t care. Laugh it off and don’t dwell on it. Don’t talk to her until you feel back to normal. Also, stay on the meds (I’m not reckless with this stuff, I just got extremely busy and forgot to call in my meds. I agree that I need to make it an automatic thing.)
deliciae, she had been going out with this guy for about a year, not a couple. I don’t know if that makes a difference.
kinddleserzeit, as for if I crossed a line when she asked if she should break up with her boyfriend, it was either a yes/no question. I suppose I should have said, “that’s up to you to decide”, but that didn’t occur to me as an option in the moment. If she’s not happy being with her boyfriend, my mind told me that, yeah, it’s probably a good idea to break up with him. I mean, was I just supposed to say, “Hey, sorry, I don’t want to talk to you about this and help you, because I have feelings for you.”? Just because I have romantic feelings doesn’t mean I should turn someone away, especially when they are brave enough to open up to me in a way that they have never done before.
kagredon, you are right. I do have some ongoing problems related to dating/relationships. I don’t have any experience, don’t know what I’m doing, and have just had to teach myself through painful experience and the internet how to get along in the world. It’s not my fault. I’m trying to learn, but some things you just can’t learn unless you are lucky to find yourself in a relationship. I’ll never be able to learn that aspect until I’m in one. Also, I have been going to a therapist. I recently quit, because I felt like it wasn’t worth the $90 every week, and that I had actually done more to mature myself by myself than with the help of a therapist.
Now, let’s get to the ‘tell her’ / ‘don’t tell her’ / ‘wait and tell her’ / ‘she already doesn’t like you in that way’/ ‘just leave her’ answers:
“I don’t think she sees you in that way, and if she doesn’t now, she probably never will. Might be a good idea to start the getting-over-her process if you want to continue the platonic friendship.” – Metroid Baby
“Can there be more there? Well, you’ll have to show interest to find out. But you can’t keep being her confidante and giving her advice that is in your best interest, too. That’s sketchy and you know it.” - inturnaround
“I will say she can probably tell that you have feelings for her, though. I cannot tell from your story how she feels about that. Maybe you could talk to her and see. It is a very rare situation that is not improved when blown open and aired out a bit.” – millipede
“Keep in mind that you don’t have to start out with a huge declaration of love and how you’ve pined for her all these years (I’ve known her for about two and a half months) waiting for her to be free. Instead, you can just ask her out: “Hey, how about you and I going on a date sometime – you know, a real date?” and then see where it goes from there.” – CathyG
“In a few weeks ask her out on a low pressure date.” – wwax
“You shouldn’t be friends with this girl. Not until you have moved on from wanting to be in a relationship with her. If you need to, put it out there and let the chips fall, but either way you’re not in a position mentally to be friends with her until that is resolved.” – J. Wilson
“Just tell her the truth: you’re feeling strong feelings for her, and have for a long time, and would like to date her when she’s ready. That’s it. No tricks, no rhetoric, just the truth. She can decide for herself how to react.” - sam_harms
Oh, and according to domo, I’m a dishonest liar and should stop hanging out with her because I’m not her friend.
As you can see, there are a lot of different positions that I ‘should’ be taking. I’m basically back at square one not knowing what I should do and how I should proceed, because there are so many different ways I could do it, but only one way will work. I’m so cautious because, again, I don’t want to burn any bridges. I suppose I’ll ask her for coffee in about a week. Say something like, “Hey, I want to get coffee with you.” The thing is, we’ve already gotten plenty of coffee together, and it was never a romantic date thing. This won’t be any different. But I still don’t want to get down on one knee and sing my love to her.
Oh, and twirlypen, I never had any real life mentors to show me the ropes of how to be successful with women and dating. I grew up extremely sheltered and over the past couple of years have had to teach myself everything off of the internet. So yeah, there is a bit of rigid personality essentials that are hard to get out of my head : Don’t show meekness. Don’t be overly affectionate. Flirt and play with her (I have NO CLUE how to do this). Use physical contact when conversing and flirting. Be confident and stand your ground…
This is going to sound incredibly narcissistic, but I don’t mean it to. I wish the world would be able to appreciate the more sensitive, easy going, friendly, amenable guy that I am. I don’t like confrontation, I don’t like to argue, I’m not super competitive, I’m just as confused about the future as everyone else in college and am not some badass trailblazer, I’d never survive in a fraternity, etc. I’d much rather sit down with my friends and help them out. You say that people don’t need to do these things and they still have women that love them, but I have never found any success being just me. So I try and be me “plus”. I deserve intimacy, and if I’m never finding it, the common denominator is me, and so I have to ‘up my game’, you know?
posted by ggp88 at 4:54 PM on April 16, 2015
The Common Answer:
The anxiety attack is no big deal. She doesn’t care. Laugh it off and don’t dwell on it. Don’t talk to her until you feel back to normal. Also, stay on the meds (I’m not reckless with this stuff, I just got extremely busy and forgot to call in my meds. I agree that I need to make it an automatic thing.)
deliciae, she had been going out with this guy for about a year, not a couple. I don’t know if that makes a difference.
kinddleserzeit, as for if I crossed a line when she asked if she should break up with her boyfriend, it was either a yes/no question. I suppose I should have said, “that’s up to you to decide”, but that didn’t occur to me as an option in the moment. If she’s not happy being with her boyfriend, my mind told me that, yeah, it’s probably a good idea to break up with him. I mean, was I just supposed to say, “Hey, sorry, I don’t want to talk to you about this and help you, because I have feelings for you.”? Just because I have romantic feelings doesn’t mean I should turn someone away, especially when they are brave enough to open up to me in a way that they have never done before.
kagredon, you are right. I do have some ongoing problems related to dating/relationships. I don’t have any experience, don’t know what I’m doing, and have just had to teach myself through painful experience and the internet how to get along in the world. It’s not my fault. I’m trying to learn, but some things you just can’t learn unless you are lucky to find yourself in a relationship. I’ll never be able to learn that aspect until I’m in one. Also, I have been going to a therapist. I recently quit, because I felt like it wasn’t worth the $90 every week, and that I had actually done more to mature myself by myself than with the help of a therapist.
Now, let’s get to the ‘tell her’ / ‘don’t tell her’ / ‘wait and tell her’ / ‘she already doesn’t like you in that way’/ ‘just leave her’ answers:
“I don’t think she sees you in that way, and if she doesn’t now, she probably never will. Might be a good idea to start the getting-over-her process if you want to continue the platonic friendship.” – Metroid Baby
“Can there be more there? Well, you’ll have to show interest to find out. But you can’t keep being her confidante and giving her advice that is in your best interest, too. That’s sketchy and you know it.” - inturnaround
“I will say she can probably tell that you have feelings for her, though. I cannot tell from your story how she feels about that. Maybe you could talk to her and see. It is a very rare situation that is not improved when blown open and aired out a bit.” – millipede
“Keep in mind that you don’t have to start out with a huge declaration of love and how you’ve pined for her all these years (I’ve known her for about two and a half months) waiting for her to be free. Instead, you can just ask her out: “Hey, how about you and I going on a date sometime – you know, a real date?” and then see where it goes from there.” – CathyG
“In a few weeks ask her out on a low pressure date.” – wwax
“You shouldn’t be friends with this girl. Not until you have moved on from wanting to be in a relationship with her. If you need to, put it out there and let the chips fall, but either way you’re not in a position mentally to be friends with her until that is resolved.” – J. Wilson
“Just tell her the truth: you’re feeling strong feelings for her, and have for a long time, and would like to date her when she’s ready. That’s it. No tricks, no rhetoric, just the truth. She can decide for herself how to react.” - sam_harms
Oh, and according to domo, I’m a dishonest liar and should stop hanging out with her because I’m not her friend.
As you can see, there are a lot of different positions that I ‘should’ be taking. I’m basically back at square one not knowing what I should do and how I should proceed, because there are so many different ways I could do it, but only one way will work. I’m so cautious because, again, I don’t want to burn any bridges. I suppose I’ll ask her for coffee in about a week. Say something like, “Hey, I want to get coffee with you.” The thing is, we’ve already gotten plenty of coffee together, and it was never a romantic date thing. This won’t be any different. But I still don’t want to get down on one knee and sing my love to her.
Oh, and twirlypen, I never had any real life mentors to show me the ropes of how to be successful with women and dating. I grew up extremely sheltered and over the past couple of years have had to teach myself everything off of the internet. So yeah, there is a bit of rigid personality essentials that are hard to get out of my head : Don’t show meekness. Don’t be overly affectionate. Flirt and play with her (I have NO CLUE how to do this). Use physical contact when conversing and flirting. Be confident and stand your ground…
This is going to sound incredibly narcissistic, but I don’t mean it to. I wish the world would be able to appreciate the more sensitive, easy going, friendly, amenable guy that I am. I don’t like confrontation, I don’t like to argue, I’m not super competitive, I’m just as confused about the future as everyone else in college and am not some badass trailblazer, I’d never survive in a fraternity, etc. I’d much rather sit down with my friends and help them out. You say that people don’t need to do these things and they still have women that love them, but I have never found any success being just me. So I try and be me “plus”. I deserve intimacy, and if I’m never finding it, the common denominator is me, and so I have to ‘up my game’, you know?
posted by ggp88 at 4:54 PM on April 16, 2015
For what it's worth, I still want to know how old she is, and how old the other women are you're trying to date. You got some very good feedback in your last question regarding the dating and "game" issues you bring up in your followup here.
posted by blue suede stockings at 5:13 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by blue suede stockings at 5:13 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Blue suede stockings, she's 20. I'm 26. It really can't be helped. The overwhelming majority of women in college, and therefore the majority of women I'll be talking to, are around this age.
posted by ggp88 at 5:22 PM on April 16, 2015
posted by ggp88 at 5:22 PM on April 16, 2015
....unless you try online dating, as suggested previously.
Feel free to continue to ignore advice along this line, but I agree with posters in your other question that the few "non-traditional" students over the age of 24 or so at my own undergraduate college (where the overwhelming majority of people were there straight from reasonably sheltered backgrounds with no significant history of work or independence) were seen as "older" in a significant way by undergraduates with regards to dating. When undergraduate women referred to unwanted attention from men over the age of 27 or so (at bars or parties), they were often labeled "creepy old guys."
If what you're doing isn't working, if I were you I'd be open to try something else. (Like....online dating. I've actually dated one or two of those "creepy old guys"--ha--returning to school as undergrads or graduate students who were 6-15 years older than their academic cohort but who were my age.)
posted by blue suede stockings at 5:38 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Feel free to continue to ignore advice along this line, but I agree with posters in your other question that the few "non-traditional" students over the age of 24 or so at my own undergraduate college (where the overwhelming majority of people were there straight from reasonably sheltered backgrounds with no significant history of work or independence) were seen as "older" in a significant way by undergraduates with regards to dating. When undergraduate women referred to unwanted attention from men over the age of 27 or so (at bars or parties), they were often labeled "creepy old guys."
If what you're doing isn't working, if I were you I'd be open to try something else. (Like....online dating. I've actually dated one or two of those "creepy old guys"--ha--returning to school as undergrads or graduate students who were 6-15 years older than their academic cohort but who were my age.)
posted by blue suede stockings at 5:38 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Blue suede, if something as superficial as age is so paramount to her, maybe that's an indication that she's not right for me. Especially when beyond that one little 'number' thing, we are as close to the same area of life as she would be with any other guy. Except I'm a little more mature and less of an ass than your typical horny drunk 20 year old frat bro. I'm trying to get rid of limiting beliefs, and I feel that the birth-date-as-indicator-of-sucess line of thought is limiting.
And I just don't want to hassle with online dating. Not unless I get really desperate. It's just not my thing, just as going to bars wouldn't be a person's thing. Online dating is beyond frustrating and I feel like I'm wasting time. I'd rather be out there than sitting alone at home clicking on a computer screen. We are all different.
posted by ggp88 at 6:05 PM on April 16, 2015
And I just don't want to hassle with online dating. Not unless I get really desperate. It's just not my thing, just as going to bars wouldn't be a person's thing. Online dating is beyond frustrating and I feel like I'm wasting time. I'd rather be out there than sitting alone at home clicking on a computer screen. We are all different.
posted by ggp88 at 6:05 PM on April 16, 2015
Except I'm a little more mature and less of an ass than your typical horny drunk 20 year old frat bro. I'm trying to get rid of limiting beliefs, and I feel that the birth-date-as-indicator-of-sucess line of thought is limiting.
uhhhh, well it doesn't seem like you're doing too great of a job at it.
As far as I can tell, you have no way to tell whether or not she'd be interested in dating you or why. You're just spitballing on the internet and then getting angry at yourself and at the world for not having dating success materialize instantly at your feet, even though you aren't willing to 1. this girl out in person or 2. meet people online.
posted by kagredon at 6:14 PM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
uhhhh, well it doesn't seem like you're doing too great of a job at it.
As far as I can tell, you have no way to tell whether or not she'd be interested in dating you or why. You're just spitballing on the internet and then getting angry at yourself and at the world for not having dating success materialize instantly at your feet, even though you aren't willing to 1. this girl out in person or 2. meet people online.
posted by kagredon at 6:14 PM on April 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Blue suede, if something as superficial as age is so paramount to her, maybe that's an indication that she's not right for me. Especially when beyond that one little 'number' thing, we are as close to the same area of life as she would be with any other guy.
This is, verbatim, what older men always say about (and sometimes to) much younger women (and 20 to 26 is "much younger" in most circles) who aren't interested in them sexually--complete with defensive/aggressive tone. Ask me (or any number of the real live women who have tried to help you here) how I know. (The last guy was 45 to my 27, and was snarly about how age was just a number, and "we were still at similar life stages and had the same interests and goals," and he "looked young for his age anyway," and my inability to look past that and personal/sexual preference for men who weren't old enough to be my dad was a sign of my immaturity.)
Online dating is beyond frustrating and I feel like I'm wasting time. I'd rather be out there than sitting alone at home clicking on a computer screen. We are all different.
My experience of online dating has been: view profiles of people who are explicitly looking for dates. Chat back and forth to assess compatibility. Ask, or be asked, to explicitly go on a date. (And here's where you could be getting practice at this, where the stakes might feel lower to you since it happens on a screen with someone you don't have to see 3x a week if she says no.) Actually go on a date, and perhaps a second or third or..... The "sitting alone at home clicking on a computer screen" part of each of those interactions that leads to a date has never precluded, for me, also being "out there." This is also how I've found some great partners I would never have met in my daily interactions.
I agree with kegredon at this point that you don't seem willing to fix what's broken (or give up the dream of the 20 year old "hipster hot" "girl" by trying anything new based on advice you're getting here.)
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:28 PM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is, verbatim, what older men always say about (and sometimes to) much younger women (and 20 to 26 is "much younger" in most circles) who aren't interested in them sexually--complete with defensive/aggressive tone. Ask me (or any number of the real live women who have tried to help you here) how I know. (The last guy was 45 to my 27, and was snarly about how age was just a number, and "we were still at similar life stages and had the same interests and goals," and he "looked young for his age anyway," and my inability to look past that and personal/sexual preference for men who weren't old enough to be my dad was a sign of my immaturity.)
Online dating is beyond frustrating and I feel like I'm wasting time. I'd rather be out there than sitting alone at home clicking on a computer screen. We are all different.
My experience of online dating has been: view profiles of people who are explicitly looking for dates. Chat back and forth to assess compatibility. Ask, or be asked, to explicitly go on a date. (And here's where you could be getting practice at this, where the stakes might feel lower to you since it happens on a screen with someone you don't have to see 3x a week if she says no.) Actually go on a date, and perhaps a second or third or..... The "sitting alone at home clicking on a computer screen" part of each of those interactions that leads to a date has never precluded, for me, also being "out there." This is also how I've found some great partners I would never have met in my daily interactions.
I agree with kegredon at this point that you don't seem willing to fix what's broken (or give up the dream of the 20 year old "hipster hot" "girl" by trying anything new based on advice you're getting here.)
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:28 PM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Blue suede, if something as superficial as age is so paramount to her, maybe that's an indication that she's not right for me. Especially when beyond that one little 'number' thing, we are as close to the same area of life as she would be with any other guy. Except I'm a little more mature and less of an ass than your typical horny drunk 20 year old frat bro. I'm trying to get rid of limiting beliefs, and I feel that the birth-date-as-indicator-of-sucess line of thought is limiting.
How many 32 year olds have you had coffee dates with? I'm sorry, but it's embarrassingly convenient that you get to huff about how age is only a number while explicitly only pursuing women 6 years younger then you.
Have you actually made friends with and had conversations with some horny drunk 20 year old frat boys? Because your language about being emasculated, not being whiny, friendzoning and the like is probably a lot closer to how a stereotypical frat boy talks then an actual "nice guy".
posted by Dynex at 8:18 PM on April 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
How many 32 year olds have you had coffee dates with? I'm sorry, but it's embarrassingly convenient that you get to huff about how age is only a number while explicitly only pursuing women 6 years younger then you.
Have you actually made friends with and had conversations with some horny drunk 20 year old frat boys? Because your language about being emasculated, not being whiny, friendzoning and the like is probably a lot closer to how a stereotypical frat boy talks then an actual "nice guy".
posted by Dynex at 8:18 PM on April 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
Personally, at age 20, I dated someone older who was "at the same stage of life as me" and it was quite bad for me. It would've been much better if he'd grown up and developed self-esteem before dating anyone. It's generally safer for two immature 20-year-olds to date and hash thing out than for a 20 year old to get involved with an older man who will tell her she's immature or not good enough if she feels uncomfortable dating out of her comfort zone.
If I were you I would focus on developing self-esteem before trying to date anyone. But if you are going to try to date, you will be doing most 20-year-old college girls a disservice to date them.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:22 PM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
If I were you I would focus on developing self-esteem before trying to date anyone. But if you are going to try to date, you will be doing most 20-year-old college girls a disservice to date them.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:22 PM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think your totally over thinking this whole thing. Yes, who had an awkward moment, and yes it was embarrassing but it happens to everyone. If she's as cool as you make her out to be she'll understand. Don't be so hard on yourself, it doesn't sound warranted.
Also and most importantly, ask her out a date and judge her reaction. Don't tell her it's a date but ask in a way that's it's implied. Her reaction will tell how she feels and whether or not she's open to it. Either she'll ask if its a date or she'll just go with the flow. When the appropriate amount of post-breakup time has passed tell her how you feel. BE PREPARED, she may not feel the same way or she may. I'm hoping that by spending time alone with you in romance inducing situations, it'll be the latter. However, you'll never have a shot if you ask and let's be honest you'll kick yourself for not asking if another boyfriend comes into the picture.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 8:45 PM on April 16, 2015
Also and most importantly, ask her out a date and judge her reaction. Don't tell her it's a date but ask in a way that's it's implied. Her reaction will tell how she feels and whether or not she's open to it. Either she'll ask if its a date or she'll just go with the flow. When the appropriate amount of post-breakup time has passed tell her how you feel. BE PREPARED, she may not feel the same way or she may. I'm hoping that by spending time alone with you in romance inducing situations, it'll be the latter. However, you'll never have a shot if you ask and let's be honest you'll kick yourself for not asking if another boyfriend comes into the picture.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 8:45 PM on April 16, 2015
I’m so cautious because, again, I don’t want to burn any bridges.
In my experience, when you're honest and respectful (i.e. not trying to manipulate anyone or force them to go down a particular path), then you're much less likely to offend people and burn bridges.
because there are so many different ways I could do it, but only one way will work.
This sounds really manipulative to me. It sounds like you're trying to trick her into dating you. You seem less concerned with doing what's right, and more concerned with how to make her react the way you want. I would feel pretty creeped out if someone was being this calculating towards me, even if I was attracted to him.
How would you like a girl to show interest in you? Would you like her to rack her brains day and night to pick just the right method calculated to make you want her, or would you prefer that she just be honest and tell you how she felt? No one can decide for you what you should do, but in my personal opinion, I think you should get back on your meds, chill out the best you can for awhile, and then do the respectful thing and just be honest with her. That's how you'd want her to treat you if the situation were reversed, right?
I'm sorry if my answer and a lot of other answers to your question seem a little rude or insulting, but I don't think you're aware of how you're coming across. You're coming across as sort of a bad person. That's another reason why I think you should wait to approach her: you don't seem to be seeing yourself or this situation clearly right now. It would probably be better to back off and wait for your head to clear a little bit, so you can make a more intelligent decision.
posted by sam_harms at 10:14 PM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
In my experience, when you're honest and respectful (i.e. not trying to manipulate anyone or force them to go down a particular path), then you're much less likely to offend people and burn bridges.
because there are so many different ways I could do it, but only one way will work.
This sounds really manipulative to me. It sounds like you're trying to trick her into dating you. You seem less concerned with doing what's right, and more concerned with how to make her react the way you want. I would feel pretty creeped out if someone was being this calculating towards me, even if I was attracted to him.
How would you like a girl to show interest in you? Would you like her to rack her brains day and night to pick just the right method calculated to make you want her, or would you prefer that she just be honest and tell you how she felt? No one can decide for you what you should do, but in my personal opinion, I think you should get back on your meds, chill out the best you can for awhile, and then do the respectful thing and just be honest with her. That's how you'd want her to treat you if the situation were reversed, right?
I'm sorry if my answer and a lot of other answers to your question seem a little rude or insulting, but I don't think you're aware of how you're coming across. You're coming across as sort of a bad person. That's another reason why I think you should wait to approach her: you don't seem to be seeing yourself or this situation clearly right now. It would probably be better to back off and wait for your head to clear a little bit, so you can make a more intelligent decision.
posted by sam_harms at 10:14 PM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Emasculating" sometimes equals charming, regardless of whether or not she reciprocates. Much of our societal idea of masculinity is about show, not character, and much of it is ugly. Not being trapped into those roles is not a bad thing.
posted by IAmBroom at 6:22 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by IAmBroom at 6:22 AM on April 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, and twirlypen, I never had any real life mentors to show me the ropes of how to be successful with women and dating.
Very few of us do, which is why AskMe is full of relationship questions. You shouldn't feel bad for being unsure or lacking confidence, as pretty much everyone is in the same boat (except for that awfully visible minority who seem to do it effortlessly).
So yeah, there is a bit of rigid personality essentials that are hard to get out of my head : Don’t show meekness. Don’t be overly affectionate. Flirt and play with her (I have NO CLUE how to do this). Use physical contact when conversing and flirting. Be confident and stand your ground…
The trouble with learning things on the internet is that it can make relationships start to sound like maths problems, where you just need the right set of techniques to extract the solution from a confusing situation. All the things you say (confidence is good, too much affection is bad) have some truth to them, but they aren't all true all the time. Overconfident people can be insufferable. People who withhold affection can be cruel.
This is going to sound incredibly narcissistic, but I don’t mean it to. I wish the world would be able to appreciate the more sensitive, easy going, friendly, amenable guy that I am.
This is going to sound incredibly oversimplified, but: the world (or at least a good chunk of the people in it) will appreciate who you are when you do as well. You see these qualities in yourself but you feel that they're insufficient, and try to hide them away. This makes you unhappy because you don't feel you're good enough, and it doesn't really work to attract people because it feels fake to them.
You say that people don’t need to do these things and they still have women that love them, but I have never found any success being just me. So I try and be me “plus”.
What do you mean by 'plus'? If you're trying to emulate the 'confidence' of other guys (instead of being confident in yourself), it will come across as fake. I'm going to take you at your word and believe that it's fantastic to stay up late and have fascinating conversations with you, and that you're a wonderful blend of sensitive and caring and friendly and fun. That's you, right? You want the world to appreciate it? Start appreciating it yourself! Be sensitive, be you, and be unapologetic. If you're interested in someone and it's not reciprocated, so what? You're still fantastic, but they're not looking for your brand of fantastic. That's fine! I'm not going to promise that it'll send the perfect woman into your arms immediately, but it means that you'll be okay with the fact that some women won't be interested in you, and it's not a failure on your part.
I deserve intimacy, and if I’m never finding it, the common denominator is me, and so I have to ‘up my game’, you know?
The common denominator, I suspect, is you treating women like they're a puzzle to be solved, and feeling inadequate for the job. Accept that you are who you are, accept that it won't magically make any particular woman like you, and be okay with it. That's what confidence is. Not the arrogance or bravado that is often mistaken for it.
One final thought - I was very insecure in my teens and early twenties around women, because I was sure (like you) that they wanted something that I didn't have. I was not particularly successful. At one point though, I met someone fantastic and we blundered through each of us being awkward long enough to be ourselves with each other and have a ball. She was from the US, so at some point I had to go home. When I got back to my old city, now with a girlfriend on the other side of the world, I attracted exponentially more attention from women that I had before. I'm very sure that the difference was that I had no interest in finding someone else, and was perfectly happy to be me. I wasn't preoccupied with how I looked, or if some girl's smile was a flirty one or not, or if I needed to be cooler or tougher or whatever. I had my girlfriend and she loved me, so I was just out and about having fun with my friends. So, as a little exercise, just stop trying to find people. This girl sounds cool, but also sounds maybe not in a great place for another relationship, and maybe interested in someone else, and maybe not into you in a romantic way. Bummer. Oh well. Now just focus on having a ball, enjoying who you are, and not saturating every encounter with endless analysis of what you're doing rightly or wrongly.
posted by twirlypen at 6:35 AM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Very few of us do, which is why AskMe is full of relationship questions. You shouldn't feel bad for being unsure or lacking confidence, as pretty much everyone is in the same boat (except for that awfully visible minority who seem to do it effortlessly).
So yeah, there is a bit of rigid personality essentials that are hard to get out of my head : Don’t show meekness. Don’t be overly affectionate. Flirt and play with her (I have NO CLUE how to do this). Use physical contact when conversing and flirting. Be confident and stand your ground…
The trouble with learning things on the internet is that it can make relationships start to sound like maths problems, where you just need the right set of techniques to extract the solution from a confusing situation. All the things you say (confidence is good, too much affection is bad) have some truth to them, but they aren't all true all the time. Overconfident people can be insufferable. People who withhold affection can be cruel.
This is going to sound incredibly narcissistic, but I don’t mean it to. I wish the world would be able to appreciate the more sensitive, easy going, friendly, amenable guy that I am.
This is going to sound incredibly oversimplified, but: the world (or at least a good chunk of the people in it) will appreciate who you are when you do as well. You see these qualities in yourself but you feel that they're insufficient, and try to hide them away. This makes you unhappy because you don't feel you're good enough, and it doesn't really work to attract people because it feels fake to them.
You say that people don’t need to do these things and they still have women that love them, but I have never found any success being just me. So I try and be me “plus”.
What do you mean by 'plus'? If you're trying to emulate the 'confidence' of other guys (instead of being confident in yourself), it will come across as fake. I'm going to take you at your word and believe that it's fantastic to stay up late and have fascinating conversations with you, and that you're a wonderful blend of sensitive and caring and friendly and fun. That's you, right? You want the world to appreciate it? Start appreciating it yourself! Be sensitive, be you, and be unapologetic. If you're interested in someone and it's not reciprocated, so what? You're still fantastic, but they're not looking for your brand of fantastic. That's fine! I'm not going to promise that it'll send the perfect woman into your arms immediately, but it means that you'll be okay with the fact that some women won't be interested in you, and it's not a failure on your part.
I deserve intimacy, and if I’m never finding it, the common denominator is me, and so I have to ‘up my game’, you know?
The common denominator, I suspect, is you treating women like they're a puzzle to be solved, and feeling inadequate for the job. Accept that you are who you are, accept that it won't magically make any particular woman like you, and be okay with it. That's what confidence is. Not the arrogance or bravado that is often mistaken for it.
One final thought - I was very insecure in my teens and early twenties around women, because I was sure (like you) that they wanted something that I didn't have. I was not particularly successful. At one point though, I met someone fantastic and we blundered through each of us being awkward long enough to be ourselves with each other and have a ball. She was from the US, so at some point I had to go home. When I got back to my old city, now with a girlfriend on the other side of the world, I attracted exponentially more attention from women that I had before. I'm very sure that the difference was that I had no interest in finding someone else, and was perfectly happy to be me. I wasn't preoccupied with how I looked, or if some girl's smile was a flirty one or not, or if I needed to be cooler or tougher or whatever. I had my girlfriend and she loved me, so I was just out and about having fun with my friends. So, as a little exercise, just stop trying to find people. This girl sounds cool, but also sounds maybe not in a great place for another relationship, and maybe interested in someone else, and maybe not into you in a romantic way. Bummer. Oh well. Now just focus on having a ball, enjoying who you are, and not saturating every encounter with endless analysis of what you're doing rightly or wrongly.
posted by twirlypen at 6:35 AM on April 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hello OP, I knew who you were as soon as I read this; I remember your question from a few months back when you were asking how to get a girlfriend. I'm sorry things still aren't working out for you. From here, it looks like you have not actually taken much of the advice. Some thoughts.
1) The panic attack: so common among stoners. Not a big deal unless you make it one. Never speak of it again. Not in any way related to your feelings for this woman, except in your own head. Dude, get your meds right. Pot is not for everyone, by the way-- if it causes bad reactions or interacts badly with your meds, you might want to cut back.
2) This woman: sorry, but I am fairly sure she does not feel the same way about you as you do about her and you are only going to torture yourself if you keep hanging out with her. Plus, you are going to keep getting into these weird situations. Plus, it's kind of disrespectful to let her think you're just her friend when really you're pining for her and resenting her for not feeling how you want her to feel. Sure, you could ask her out on a date, making sure she understands it's a date, and then you'll know for certain where you stand. I don't think it sounds like she wants to date you, though. I think maybe you should not spend as much time around her so you can get over your crush.
3) All women: you got stop fucking saying what "all" women want or like, this instant. It's incredibly sexist! And stop believing it when other sexists say it.
4) Lack of role models: too bad. Pity party over. Not many men have role models for this stuff. The internet forums you seem to frequent are terrible role models. See above-- "all" women are not the same so there is no one thing "all" men should do. It's like you think if you read the correct sequence of events on the internet, then enact them, you can force a woman who isn't interested in you to become interested. You know that's not true, right? The only way to know if a woman is interested in you is to ask her out. You just have to. If you're not meeting women online that you click with, I'm very sorry, but that's very typical of online dating. You just keep going until you find someone where the feelings are mutual. We all have to do that. It mostly fails; it mostly sucks. Even for women. But when it works, it's great.
5) Your age: You're in denial about this one. At 19 there was this 25 y/o who hung around my crowd in college and while it was okay to hang out with him, none of us ever even considered dating him. Too old. We wondered what was wrong with him that he couldn't find someone his own age. Now that I'm in my 30's, that age difference doesn't even register. You're just going to have to believe us on this one-- at your age, the dynamic of 26 y/o and college undergrad who can't even drink yet is not gonna fly.
6) The answer: again, I'm sorry, but there is no answer, no key, no magic words, no program. We ALL struggle to find someone who we love who loves us back. Just work on finding out who you are, work on your friendships and hobbies, don't idealize and fall for every pretty girl who pays you the slightest attention, don't act entitled to love from any woman, don't waste your time pining for women who aren't interested. I think you need to work, maybe in therapy, on chilling out. Widen your net, lower your expectations, relax and enjoy your life. You'll be happier and more attractive. Didn't we talk last time about how you are throwing some very desperate vibes, and how that will not work to your advantage? Confidence is not about swagger; it's about a certain amount of knowing and being comfortable with, who you really are. Meek, shy, "emasculated" guys are extremely attractive to many many women-- as long as they're not trying to cover it over with fax-swagger or trying to torture themselves out of being who they really are.
posted by kapers at 11:26 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
1) The panic attack: so common among stoners. Not a big deal unless you make it one. Never speak of it again. Not in any way related to your feelings for this woman, except in your own head. Dude, get your meds right. Pot is not for everyone, by the way-- if it causes bad reactions or interacts badly with your meds, you might want to cut back.
2) This woman: sorry, but I am fairly sure she does not feel the same way about you as you do about her and you are only going to torture yourself if you keep hanging out with her. Plus, you are going to keep getting into these weird situations. Plus, it's kind of disrespectful to let her think you're just her friend when really you're pining for her and resenting her for not feeling how you want her to feel. Sure, you could ask her out on a date, making sure she understands it's a date, and then you'll know for certain where you stand. I don't think it sounds like she wants to date you, though. I think maybe you should not spend as much time around her so you can get over your crush.
3) All women: you got stop fucking saying what "all" women want or like, this instant. It's incredibly sexist! And stop believing it when other sexists say it.
4) Lack of role models: too bad. Pity party over. Not many men have role models for this stuff. The internet forums you seem to frequent are terrible role models. See above-- "all" women are not the same so there is no one thing "all" men should do. It's like you think if you read the correct sequence of events on the internet, then enact them, you can force a woman who isn't interested in you to become interested. You know that's not true, right? The only way to know if a woman is interested in you is to ask her out. You just have to. If you're not meeting women online that you click with, I'm very sorry, but that's very typical of online dating. You just keep going until you find someone where the feelings are mutual. We all have to do that. It mostly fails; it mostly sucks. Even for women. But when it works, it's great.
5) Your age: You're in denial about this one. At 19 there was this 25 y/o who hung around my crowd in college and while it was okay to hang out with him, none of us ever even considered dating him. Too old. We wondered what was wrong with him that he couldn't find someone his own age. Now that I'm in my 30's, that age difference doesn't even register. You're just going to have to believe us on this one-- at your age, the dynamic of 26 y/o and college undergrad who can't even drink yet is not gonna fly.
6) The answer: again, I'm sorry, but there is no answer, no key, no magic words, no program. We ALL struggle to find someone who we love who loves us back. Just work on finding out who you are, work on your friendships and hobbies, don't idealize and fall for every pretty girl who pays you the slightest attention, don't act entitled to love from any woman, don't waste your time pining for women who aren't interested. I think you need to work, maybe in therapy, on chilling out. Widen your net, lower your expectations, relax and enjoy your life. You'll be happier and more attractive. Didn't we talk last time about how you are throwing some very desperate vibes, and how that will not work to your advantage? Confidence is not about swagger; it's about a certain amount of knowing and being comfortable with, who you really are. Meek, shy, "emasculated" guys are extremely attractive to many many women-- as long as they're not trying to cover it over with fax-swagger or trying to torture themselves out of being who they really are.
posted by kapers at 11:26 AM on April 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Sorry OP, I didn't see your update in which you ruled out online dating. Then your only option is to ask women out face-to-face on dates. (Trying to manipulate your female friends into dating you doesn't count.)
I also note a through-line in all your questions and updates: this tone of superiority to all other men. People aren't stereotypes, you know; just as all women are different, all men are, too. You can talk about "bros" all you want but I don't see where your methods are superior to theirs. And this becomes just another way you can disrespect women-- like, oh, women only want bros, who are stupid, and not me, who is so much better, therefore women are stupid and don't know what's good for them.
posted by kapers at 12:23 PM on April 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
I also note a through-line in all your questions and updates: this tone of superiority to all other men. People aren't stereotypes, you know; just as all women are different, all men are, too. You can talk about "bros" all you want but I don't see where your methods are superior to theirs. And this becomes just another way you can disrespect women-- like, oh, women only want bros, who are stupid, and not me, who is so much better, therefore women are stupid and don't know what's good for them.
posted by kapers at 12:23 PM on April 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
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Anyway, you probably should lay off the chemicals. That's pretty much the problem I see. That, and also that you're thinking last guys finish last or something. That's not true, and the people who tell you this are wrong about Life in general.
posted by jbenben at 10:33 PM on April 15, 2015 [3 favorites]