What to tell my daughter about her boyfriend's porn habit?
April 13, 2015 8:02 AM Subscribe
My 17-yr old daughter has been dating the same boy for over a year. She has been intermittently very upset about their relationship without telling me why. Finally she confided in me that he watches porn and it bothers her.
She feels that it is cheating, that she should be "enough" and that it makes her feel insecure. I don't know if his porn habit reaches the level of an addiction (although she thinks so because he told her he would stop and then didn't) or he is just a teenage boy with a world of porn available at his fingertips. What I do know is that she is very upset about his and I would like to help her in some way.
She feels that it is cheating, that she should be "enough" and that it makes her feel insecure. I don't know if his porn habit reaches the level of an addiction (although she thinks so because he told her he would stop and then didn't) or he is just a teenage boy with a world of porn available at his fingertips. What I do know is that she is very upset about his and I would like to help her in some way.
I think the best thing you can do is mostly stay out of it. Obviously you can comfort her, and encourage her to talk to him and end the relationship if she feels that is best, but I wouldn't push any particular agenda too strongly. Of course she should dump him, but who does the right thing at 17 when your Mom is trying to make you? Nobody. This is a lesson she will have to learn herself.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:09 AM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:09 AM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
That is awesome that she came to you about this, first of all.
There a lot of different perspectives of porn (and I'm sure you will hear a bunch of differing views here) but as a mother myself, I would say thing single biggest thing you could tell her is that IT IS NOT ABOUT HER. It's not because she's not "enough" in any way. Her boyfriend is watching porn because he wants to watch porn.
Then, to what extent she's OK with this, finds it degrading to women, thinks he's unhealthily obsessed, whatever, are a whole other batch of issues to sort out depending her (and your) views.
posted by pantarei70 at 8:11 AM on April 13, 2015 [95 favorites]
There a lot of different perspectives of porn (and I'm sure you will hear a bunch of differing views here) but as a mother myself, I would say thing single biggest thing you could tell her is that IT IS NOT ABOUT HER. It's not because she's not "enough" in any way. Her boyfriend is watching porn because he wants to watch porn.
Then, to what extent she's OK with this, finds it degrading to women, thinks he's unhealthily obsessed, whatever, are a whole other batch of issues to sort out depending her (and your) views.
posted by pantarei70 at 8:11 AM on April 13, 2015 [95 favorites]
Can you suggest that she look around on the internet for other advice on this? I think that it's a tricky thing to negotiate, because there are several things in place - a generally misogynist culture which tells women that they are never "enough", and a weird sexual culture which tells us that in ideal relationships no one ever fantasizes, watches porn, etc. Plus the whole "teenage boy may well get some really stupid ideas from porn" business. I feel like it's important for everyone to understand that their partner can have an active fantasy life while still being committed to the relationship, but I also feel like this idea can intersect very badly with all the cultural messages about being the "cool girl" and needing to put up with whatever just because it's bad when women want things. Are there resources at Captain Awkward or Scarleteen or something? (I can't google, like "advice about porn watching" at work, as that would give the wrong impression.)
I am also at a bit of a loss as to why the boyfriend is sharing info about his porn habits with her; that seems kind of skeevy and manipulative to me.
posted by Frowner at 8:15 AM on April 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
I am also at a bit of a loss as to why the boyfriend is sharing info about his porn habits with her; that seems kind of skeevy and manipulative to me.
posted by Frowner at 8:15 AM on April 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
Scarleteen is the exact right resource for your daughter and if you check out the pornography tag, you'll find this -- which addresses the very same issues your daughter is struggling with.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:26 AM on April 13, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 8:26 AM on April 13, 2015 [25 favorites]
I am also at a bit of a loss as to why the boyfriend is sharing info about his porn habits with her; that seems kind of skeevy and manipulative to me.
Maybe she asked him. I talked about porn with my high school boyfriend twenty-plus years ago, when we were roughly that age. We had access to porn. We were sexual with each other. We talked about a lot of the same things that older people talk about when they're in a sexual relationship, and porn/porn usage was one of those things. It's not skeevy or manipulative to simply be talking about it... for all we know, she's the one who brought it up, for a multitude of reasons.
OP, I second the recommendation for Scarleteen.
posted by palomar at 8:33 AM on April 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
Maybe she asked him. I talked about porn with my high school boyfriend twenty-plus years ago, when we were roughly that age. We had access to porn. We were sexual with each other. We talked about a lot of the same things that older people talk about when they're in a sexual relationship, and porn/porn usage was one of those things. It's not skeevy or manipulative to simply be talking about it... for all we know, she's the one who brought it up, for a multitude of reasons.
OP, I second the recommendation for Scarleteen.
posted by palomar at 8:33 AM on April 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
Thirding Scarleteen.
posted by Jairus at 8:37 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Jairus at 8:37 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am also at a bit of a loss as to why the boyfriend is sharing info about his porn habits with her; that seems kind of skeevy and manipulative to me.
We don't have enough information about what was said or not said to make judgment calls about that. At the age, my significant others and I would ask each other if we looked at porn and talked about what we liked.
To the question, I think that as a mother you could offer honest talk about your feelings about porn (whatever they are) and maybe some general facts about how common it is. For working through it with her boyfriend, you might suggest that some of the teenage oriented forums like Scarleteen might help her see how other young couples have navigated the issue. That might be way more confortable for her than hearing too many details about her parents' sex life.
This might also be a good place to talk about deal breakers in relationships with her - she feels betrayed not just because he looked at porn but because he said he would stop and didn't. That's bad, obviously, but isn't necessarily something to end a relationship over. Learning to figure out what is and isn't relationship ending is a good thing at that age. I liked the Dan Savage deal breaker talk - you might take a listen and see if it's appropriate for her.
posted by Candleman at 8:39 AM on April 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
We don't have enough information about what was said or not said to make judgment calls about that. At the age, my significant others and I would ask each other if we looked at porn and talked about what we liked.
To the question, I think that as a mother you could offer honest talk about your feelings about porn (whatever they are) and maybe some general facts about how common it is. For working through it with her boyfriend, you might suggest that some of the teenage oriented forums like Scarleteen might help her see how other young couples have navigated the issue. That might be way more confortable for her than hearing too many details about her parents' sex life.
This might also be a good place to talk about deal breakers in relationships with her - she feels betrayed not just because he looked at porn but because he said he would stop and didn't. That's bad, obviously, but isn't necessarily something to end a relationship over. Learning to figure out what is and isn't relationship ending is a good thing at that age. I liked the Dan Savage deal breaker talk - you might take a listen and see if it's appropriate for her.
posted by Candleman at 8:39 AM on April 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Eesh. This is tough.
As her mother, I'd definitely want to support my daughter, but I'd also be secretly glad that my 17 year old daughter's boyfriend was getting his rocks off at least some of the time in a way that didn't risk her getting pregnant.....
The thing that it may be worth discussing with your daughter is that sometimes people just want a physical release. It doesn't mean they don't love their partner, or that they'd prefer to be with another person. They just want to burn off a little stress, get a rush of endorphins, and get on with things. On the topic of common-ness, you may also wish to gently point out that it's going to be quite difficult to find a boy who really has no interest in porn.
I felt the same way at her age, FWIW, but the way my boyfriend (now husband) described it to me resonated at the time and still does. Steaks are delicious and there is no finer dinner than a perfect steak. Certainly no one would argue that a hamburger is objectively better. But... sometimes you're just in the mood for a burger.
That said, there is certainly a courtesy issue. Dan Savage talks about this often. If she doesn't want to think about his watching porn, she should not have to see evidence of it. Basically, some pretends he doesn't, and she pretends to believe him. Some may see this as dishonest, but I think it's more subtle than that, and see it as a courtesy in both directions.
These are thoughts I've accumulated over a long time, and some of it might be hard for her to hear. It'll be up to you to gauge what to tell her, and that will be certainly colored by your own views. But, it's the position I've evolved to after having started in her shoes, so perhaps some of it will be useful.
posted by telepanda at 8:54 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
As her mother, I'd definitely want to support my daughter, but I'd also be secretly glad that my 17 year old daughter's boyfriend was getting his rocks off at least some of the time in a way that didn't risk her getting pregnant.....
The thing that it may be worth discussing with your daughter is that sometimes people just want a physical release. It doesn't mean they don't love their partner, or that they'd prefer to be with another person. They just want to burn off a little stress, get a rush of endorphins, and get on with things. On the topic of common-ness, you may also wish to gently point out that it's going to be quite difficult to find a boy who really has no interest in porn.
I felt the same way at her age, FWIW, but the way my boyfriend (now husband) described it to me resonated at the time and still does. Steaks are delicious and there is no finer dinner than a perfect steak. Certainly no one would argue that a hamburger is objectively better. But... sometimes you're just in the mood for a burger.
That said, there is certainly a courtesy issue. Dan Savage talks about this often. If she doesn't want to think about his watching porn, she should not have to see evidence of it. Basically, some pretends he doesn't, and she pretends to believe him. Some may see this as dishonest, but I think it's more subtle than that, and see it as a courtesy in both directions.
These are thoughts I've accumulated over a long time, and some of it might be hard for her to hear. It'll be up to you to gauge what to tell her, and that will be certainly colored by your own views. But, it's the position I've evolved to after having started in her shoes, so perhaps some of it will be useful.
posted by telepanda at 8:54 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I am also at a bit of a loss as to why the boyfriend is sharing info about his porn habits with her; that seems kind of skeevy and manipulative to me.
They talk about EVERYTHING. They seem to be more open with other at that age than I would have been with my boyfriend. My feeling is that we don't need to know everything about our partner's internal life! But since this is out in the open and causing her so much anguish I just want to help her.
posted by cherrybounce at 9:01 AM on April 13, 2015
They talk about EVERYTHING. They seem to be more open with other at that age than I would have been with my boyfriend. My feeling is that we don't need to know everything about our partner's internal life! But since this is out in the open and causing her so much anguish I just want to help her.
posted by cherrybounce at 9:01 AM on April 13, 2015
For a long time, I had a really hard time believing the below truths due to cultural narratives. But they are 100% true.
1. Not all guys watch porn.
2. Not all guys watch porn while in relationships.
Regardless of the fact that most guys may watch porn, including while in relationships, it's a good reality/leverage check to remember these truths.
Sometimes I can't believe that I am lucky enough to have dated 2/5 guys who really and actually watched porn very infrequently. Those are pretty high odds in my anecdotal experience. Only 1/5 genuinely had a problem with it getting between us. I am 27.
posted by quincunx at 9:03 AM on April 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
1. Not all guys watch porn.
2. Not all guys watch porn while in relationships.
Regardless of the fact that most guys may watch porn, including while in relationships, it's a good reality/leverage check to remember these truths.
Sometimes I can't believe that I am lucky enough to have dated 2/5 guys who really and actually watched porn very infrequently. Those are pretty high odds in my anecdotal experience. Only 1/5 genuinely had a problem with it getting between us. I am 27.
posted by quincunx at 9:03 AM on April 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
One thing that I hope your daughter will pick up in some way, whether from you or from other resources: it is okay, and can even be healthy, for her to look at porn/sexual stuff. This issue often gets framed as "men all naturally want to look at porn, a thing that has no interest for women, and women just need to learn to ignore it", and to my mind this is part of the cultural discourse which helps delay women in finding out what they actually are interested in sexually. That's not to say that anyone has to look at porn or read sexual material, but it might be helpful for your daughter to think about this kind of thing as a kind of thing which might be of interest to her as well, rather than just something that guys do and girls put up with. Also, honestly, just looking at bit more at sexual material which appeals to her on some level (or just reflects her usual interests) might help demystify the whole thing - a lot of porn is gross and depressing, IMO, but in general I think that it's easy to assume that porn is somehow a replacement/better than/more beautiful than/etc actual sex with a partner and actually seeing some average porn can clear this up.
Also, women are encouraged to find porn and explicit sexual stuff gross, and while no one needs to look at porn, I have found through conversation with women friends that sometimes people have this "in order to be a womanly woman I must be uncomfortable around sexual images and just generally be the keeper of sexual morality" thing which is not happy-making for them. This is very different from "eh, I don't like porn but I don't think about it too much unless I have to"; it's more of a cultural anxiety about how women are supposed to be. And sometimes just seeing some porn and being all "oh, that's really kind of boring and not as big a deal as I thought" can be helpful.
posted by Frowner at 9:13 AM on April 13, 2015 [43 favorites]
Also, women are encouraged to find porn and explicit sexual stuff gross, and while no one needs to look at porn, I have found through conversation with women friends that sometimes people have this "in order to be a womanly woman I must be uncomfortable around sexual images and just generally be the keeper of sexual morality" thing which is not happy-making for them. This is very different from "eh, I don't like porn but I don't think about it too much unless I have to"; it's more of a cultural anxiety about how women are supposed to be. And sometimes just seeing some porn and being all "oh, that's really kind of boring and not as big a deal as I thought" can be helpful.
posted by Frowner at 9:13 AM on April 13, 2015 [43 favorites]
Here's the thing: the porn is a red herring. Your daughter's boyfriend is really into something that she's currently opposed to. It would be the same as if the boyfriend were into tagging, or making fun of disabled people, or anything she was really opposed to. It's okay to break up with people who are into things we don't like and don't see ourselves growing to like. That's normal, at any age, for any way we spend our time.
posted by juniperesque at 9:14 AM on April 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by juniperesque at 9:14 AM on April 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
I had three thoughts on reading this thread:
1. Your daughter thinks that she "should" be enough for him, but the facts show that she isn't. Wishing that things should be the way they aren't (especially when dealing with things she can't really change, like other people's preferences) is a recipe for distress. She either has to accept him as he is or break up. I'd also explore with her what she means by "enough."
2. Nthing the idea that most, if not all men, enjoy porn, and porn has a role developing in people's sexual imaginations. It can be a good thing in moderation.
3. Maybe they shouldn't tell each other "EVERYTHING." It's OK in relationship to keep some thoughts to oneself.
posted by Leontine at 9:16 AM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
1. Your daughter thinks that she "should" be enough for him, but the facts show that she isn't. Wishing that things should be the way they aren't (especially when dealing with things she can't really change, like other people's preferences) is a recipe for distress. She either has to accept him as he is or break up. I'd also explore with her what she means by "enough."
2. Nthing the idea that most, if not all men, enjoy porn, and porn has a role developing in people's sexual imaginations. It can be a good thing in moderation.
3. Maybe they shouldn't tell each other "EVERYTHING." It's OK in relationship to keep some thoughts to oneself.
posted by Leontine at 9:16 AM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
The societally-imposed "I should be enough" stuff, whether its in regards to sex (its especially used to shame in regards to sex) or anything else is hugely problematic and sticks people in a permanent state of hypervigilance looking for evidence that their partner feels their sense of self is lacking (which for women and teens especially tends to translate if 'if only i were thinner/hotter/quieter/more deferential/more willing to do crazy porn sex, then he wouldnt need to look at porn'. I would encourage you to do everything you can to help her notice the patriarchal attitudes in play here.
100% of men watch porn. There have been numerous attempts over the years to do academic studies of men who do vs men who dont that have had to be cancelled becaues they literally COULD NOT FIND MEN WHO DO NOT WATCH PORN. It is not a bug, its a feature. It is not reflective of how your daughters boyfriend feels about her, it is reflective of people enjoying watching gorgeous people engage in sexual acts, and masturbating. Statistically, most women watch porn too. (this is not an argument for or against mainstream porn, which has its own complicated set of issues)
My plea as a sex-positive feminist would be to help her examine her assumption that 'if my partner has any sexual life outside of me, that is due to something that i am lacking'. Whether she ends up with this guy forever or they break up next week, her partners will always ALWAYS find other people attractive, fantasize about celebrities, and probably watch porn. It would be great if she could build the resilience to chalk this up to "people like looking at pretty naked people. My partner enjoys spending time with me and is attracted to me because he has said as much. Hey, I enjoy looking at pretty people too!"
(here's Dan Savage's advice which i also agree with)
posted by softlord at 9:25 AM on April 13, 2015 [42 favorites]
100% of men watch porn. There have been numerous attempts over the years to do academic studies of men who do vs men who dont that have had to be cancelled becaues they literally COULD NOT FIND MEN WHO DO NOT WATCH PORN. It is not a bug, its a feature. It is not reflective of how your daughters boyfriend feels about her, it is reflective of people enjoying watching gorgeous people engage in sexual acts, and masturbating. Statistically, most women watch porn too. (this is not an argument for or against mainstream porn, which has its own complicated set of issues)
My plea as a sex-positive feminist would be to help her examine her assumption that 'if my partner has any sexual life outside of me, that is due to something that i am lacking'. Whether she ends up with this guy forever or they break up next week, her partners will always ALWAYS find other people attractive, fantasize about celebrities, and probably watch porn. It would be great if she could build the resilience to chalk this up to "people like looking at pretty naked people. My partner enjoys spending time with me and is attracted to me because he has said as much. Hey, I enjoy looking at pretty people too!"
(here's Dan Savage's advice which i also agree with)
posted by softlord at 9:25 AM on April 13, 2015 [42 favorites]
Okay, I also want to point out, because everyone seems to be taking this to extremes:
OP states the daughter believes he is "addicted." Now, he may or may not be, and we can argue until the cows come home over what that means, exactly, but I think it would be helpful to frame this in those terms.
Some people seem to be taking this as "any porn is too much, he saw it one time, that means he cheated." Which I agree is ridiculous. I also agree that nearly 100% of everyone has seen or watched porn at some point.
The more nuanced and more helpful question to focus in here is how regularly does he watch it, if he does compare her to the porn (because yes, this is completely possible) and if he prefers the porn over sex with her sometimes or most of the time.
Porn can be harmless. It can also be harmful. I think thinking in extremes helps no one.
posted by quincunx at 9:34 AM on April 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
OP states the daughter believes he is "addicted." Now, he may or may not be, and we can argue until the cows come home over what that means, exactly, but I think it would be helpful to frame this in those terms.
Some people seem to be taking this as "any porn is too much, he saw it one time, that means he cheated." Which I agree is ridiculous. I also agree that nearly 100% of everyone has seen or watched porn at some point.
The more nuanced and more helpful question to focus in here is how regularly does he watch it, if he does compare her to the porn (because yes, this is completely possible) and if he prefers the porn over sex with her sometimes or most of the time.
Porn can be harmless. It can also be harmful. I think thinking in extremes helps no one.
posted by quincunx at 9:34 AM on April 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
I agree the with the idea that women also are entitled to inner lives and your daughter might feel less like that automatically constitutes cheating if she tried it herself. I find a lot of video pr0n (at least what you get when you google) to be kind of unattractive, and wonder if your daughter might benefit from a gentler intoduction via plain-text stories.
With the caveat that I would GO CRAWL IN A HOLE AND DIE if my mother ever suggested this to me (but we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place) literotica.com has a pretty diverse collection of stories, and if you can get past the typographical errors, some are worth reading. (That said, it is the internet, and not moderated, viewer discretion advised.)
Also, I may or may not have ever tried to emotionally bully my boyfriend into promising not to watch porn anymore, and he may well have agreed just to get me off his back in the moment, and then didn't stop because temptation. My analysis 15 years post hoc is that that was pretty immature of both of us. Please do discuss the more nuanced and helpful question quincunx suggested, because there could totally be something more sinister going on, but at first glance it seems like exactly the sort of mess two people who haven't learnt how to have a relationship yet get themselves into. You really could help her out long-term by teaching to think through that sort of nuanced relationship question.
posted by telepanda at 9:45 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
With the caveat that I would GO CRAWL IN A HOLE AND DIE if my mother ever suggested this to me (but we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place) literotica.com has a pretty diverse collection of stories, and if you can get past the typographical errors, some are worth reading. (That said, it is the internet, and not moderated, viewer discretion advised.)
Also, I may or may not have ever tried to emotionally bully my boyfriend into promising not to watch porn anymore, and he may well have agreed just to get me off his back in the moment, and then didn't stop because temptation. My analysis 15 years post hoc is that that was pretty immature of both of us. Please do discuss the more nuanced and helpful question quincunx suggested, because there could totally be something more sinister going on, but at first glance it seems like exactly the sort of mess two people who haven't learnt how to have a relationship yet get themselves into. You really could help her out long-term by teaching to think through that sort of nuanced relationship question.
posted by telepanda at 9:45 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Regarding why he might have shared, my partner occasionally shares porn with me as a way for us to do something sexy together. Some couples do this as a way to enhance the mood or to share each other's preferences and/or fantasies in a fun way. It's not always a deep dark secret that people do all alone. Maybe he was going for something like this and it just backfired in a big way.
Also watching it is not a disorder or a sign of being "broken" and it's really bizarre to me that anyone would even post something like that.
This may just be a dealbreaker for them. If it's not getting out of control, personally I don't think it's fair to ask him to give up something he enjoys but it's also not fair for her to just sit by silently in discomfort with this.
posted by Kimmalah at 9:55 AM on April 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also watching it is not a disorder or a sign of being "broken" and it's really bizarre to me that anyone would even post something like that.
This may just be a dealbreaker for them. If it's not getting out of control, personally I don't think it's fair to ask him to give up something he enjoys but it's also not fair for her to just sit by silently in discomfort with this.
posted by Kimmalah at 9:55 AM on April 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
I see three issues here you might be able to help her untangle. The tangle of thoughts and feelings is part of what makes this feel so awful. Even grown women have a very complex set of feelings about this.
1) The issue of fantasy. Pretty much everyone has a sexual imagination of some sort, even women, even her. Of course, nobody wants to hear her mother say "fantasy" (sorry!) but you could point out that it's okay to think about people other than your partner, provided you are not comparing them or getting totally caught up in the dream. Say she thinks Robert Pattinson is crazy hot (sorry my references are dated, I'm twice her age and don't have kids.) She doesn't "prefer" Pattinson, doesn't think her BF isn't "enough" for her just because she likes to look at and think about him. Maybe she can understand how her BF might be able to separate fantasy from reality since she likely does the same.
2) The porn itself. Maybe she can be okay with fantasy and sexual images, but finds the specific images he uses disturbing, and that's her right. A lot of mainstream porn, which is what he's likely getting off to, turns many of us off or just plain triggers our ingrained insecurities, especially the first few times you see it. She does not have to like it, no matter how "normal"everybody says it is. Not only does it favor a very specific look that excludes most everyday women, it is almost entirely from a male POV and can in fact encourage young men to be similarly selfish in real-life sexual scenarios, when they try to reenact what they've seen without consideration of the fact that the completely-shaven person with enormous breast implants was merely pretending to have an orgasm from a man spitting on her butt. It's her right to approve or disapprove for herself. She's 17, remind her she's allowed change her mind about what's okay and what isn't.
3) Her BF's behavior. She can't control what's in his mind but she is entitled to a real consideration of her feelings. Unfortunately, men aren't really taught to question or give much thought to this issue and get extremely defensive when it comes up, so I can't imagine a 17 y/o boy would have the emotional vocabulary to take this on. But if he's an outright jerk about it, that's telling. She's allowed to set boundaries in relationships, but he gets a say, too. It's really hard to tell if her BF was a jerk in this scenario, or just young and figuring things out, but he should definitely care that his porn usage is affecting his relationship. He should not just feed her some BS about stopping if he doesn't mean to; that speaks to his character, porn issue aside. Also, if he is in any way making her feel like a prude for not being into what he's into, he just plain sucks. It doesn't really sound like that's what's happened, though-- it sounds to me like he tried and failed to accommodate her request. She gets to decide whether that's a dealbreaker. Does she know about dealbreakers? Doe she know the "don't ask, don't tell" option is available?
posted by kapers at 9:59 AM on April 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
1) The issue of fantasy. Pretty much everyone has a sexual imagination of some sort, even women, even her. Of course, nobody wants to hear her mother say "fantasy" (sorry!) but you could point out that it's okay to think about people other than your partner, provided you are not comparing them or getting totally caught up in the dream. Say she thinks Robert Pattinson is crazy hot (sorry my references are dated, I'm twice her age and don't have kids.) She doesn't "prefer" Pattinson, doesn't think her BF isn't "enough" for her just because she likes to look at and think about him. Maybe she can understand how her BF might be able to separate fantasy from reality since she likely does the same.
2) The porn itself. Maybe she can be okay with fantasy and sexual images, but finds the specific images he uses disturbing, and that's her right. A lot of mainstream porn, which is what he's likely getting off to, turns many of us off or just plain triggers our ingrained insecurities, especially the first few times you see it. She does not have to like it, no matter how "normal"everybody says it is. Not only does it favor a very specific look that excludes most everyday women, it is almost entirely from a male POV and can in fact encourage young men to be similarly selfish in real-life sexual scenarios, when they try to reenact what they've seen without consideration of the fact that the completely-shaven person with enormous breast implants was merely pretending to have an orgasm from a man spitting on her butt. It's her right to approve or disapprove for herself. She's 17, remind her she's allowed change her mind about what's okay and what isn't.
3) Her BF's behavior. She can't control what's in his mind but she is entitled to a real consideration of her feelings. Unfortunately, men aren't really taught to question or give much thought to this issue and get extremely defensive when it comes up, so I can't imagine a 17 y/o boy would have the emotional vocabulary to take this on. But if he's an outright jerk about it, that's telling. She's allowed to set boundaries in relationships, but he gets a say, too. It's really hard to tell if her BF was a jerk in this scenario, or just young and figuring things out, but he should definitely care that his porn usage is affecting his relationship. He should not just feed her some BS about stopping if he doesn't mean to; that speaks to his character, porn issue aside. Also, if he is in any way making her feel like a prude for not being into what he's into, he just plain sucks. It doesn't really sound like that's what's happened, though-- it sounds to me like he tried and failed to accommodate her request. She gets to decide whether that's a dealbreaker. Does she know about dealbreakers? Doe she know the "don't ask, don't tell" option is available?
posted by kapers at 9:59 AM on April 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Tell her she'll understand when she reaches ~30. Some women like porn, others don't. But you would be doing her a grave disservice if you didn't at least make an attempt to disabuse her of the notion that the vanilla sex she's having with her boyfriend will ever be "enough" for a partner. Please also make a point of letting her know that he masturbates and that's okay, and she should also masturbate. There's plenty of sexual desire to go around and, generally, the more sex one is having, the more one wants.
posted by janey47 at 10:17 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by janey47 at 10:17 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
ALSO just wanted to add, you sound like a great mom! To have an open dialog with my mom about this as a teenager would have helped me sort out my feelings immensely.
posted by kapers at 10:24 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by kapers at 10:24 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think making it about the dude and his porn habit, addition vs. not-addiction, whatever, is not really the way to go; really this is a question about your daughter and what kind of relationship she wants to be in.
The Scarleteen article is good, but I think there are really two major takeaway points: (1) it's okay to break up with the dude over this, or anything else, because she has a right to be as selective as she wants to be in choosing a partner, at this or any other age; (2) she may want to consider, although it doesn't necessarily mean it will change her decision, that finding a partner who doesn't watch porn is going to narrow the dating pool quite a bit.
Not that narrowing the pool may be a bad thing. It's just something to be aware of. Everyone has to decide where they want to draw the line, and strike a balance between behaviors that are Not OK and behaviors that are tolerable, and how that restricts their choices with respect to the people who are mutually interested in dating them.
And if that leads to a conversation about how adults relate to each other and get around slightly-obnoxious behaviors while still liking the other person in general, i.e. Dan Savage's comments about pretending not to do something and the other person pretending to believe it, and that maybe there are things that you might want to choose not to share with your partner (or not ask) without necessarily being dishonest... that might be a good conversation. But if it doesn't lead there, it could also be a topic for another day.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:38 AM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Scarleteen article is good, but I think there are really two major takeaway points: (1) it's okay to break up with the dude over this, or anything else, because she has a right to be as selective as she wants to be in choosing a partner, at this or any other age; (2) she may want to consider, although it doesn't necessarily mean it will change her decision, that finding a partner who doesn't watch porn is going to narrow the dating pool quite a bit.
Not that narrowing the pool may be a bad thing. It's just something to be aware of. Everyone has to decide where they want to draw the line, and strike a balance between behaviors that are Not OK and behaviors that are tolerable, and how that restricts their choices with respect to the people who are mutually interested in dating them.
And if that leads to a conversation about how adults relate to each other and get around slightly-obnoxious behaviors while still liking the other person in general, i.e. Dan Savage's comments about pretending not to do something and the other person pretending to believe it, and that maybe there are things that you might want to choose not to share with your partner (or not ask) without necessarily being dishonest... that might be a good conversation. But if it doesn't lead there, it could also be a topic for another day.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:38 AM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Another great resource for teens (and anybody, really) for information regarding these issues is the YouTube channel Sexplanations. It is honest, sex positive, straightforward, non-condescending, and factually correct. And the host, sexologist Dr. Lindsey Doe (who has teenage daughters herself), seems like she'd be super fun to hang out with.
posted by ocherdraco at 11:38 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ocherdraco at 11:38 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
These are all interesting points being made in these comments, but in the end this is your life, and your daughter, and what you tell your daughter needs to be a reflection of your own values. What do you think about porn? Do you consider it cheating? Do you think it's something that is worth breaking up over? Ultimately, your daughter needs to make her own decisions, because she's the only one who can, but as her parent you still have a right to try to impart the values you think are best, especially at this age.
Personally, I think that everyone has the right to privacy, and if she goes through life thinking it's appropriate to try to control everything her partner looks at and thinks about, then she's going to have some pretty miserable relationships.
posted by sam_harms at 11:55 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally, I think that everyone has the right to privacy, and if she goes through life thinking it's appropriate to try to control everything her partner looks at and thinks about, then she's going to have some pretty miserable relationships.
posted by sam_harms at 11:55 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know if his porn habit reaches the level of an addiction (although she thinks so because he told her he would stop and then didn't)
It is totally within your daughter's rights to decide that any amount of porn use is a dealbreaker for her, but this statement alone does not signal an addiction to me. My understanding is that people who are truly compulsive with their porn use tend to have suffered concrete harms from their behavior: for example, being frequently absent from or underperforming in work or school, giving up activities they used to enjoy, social withdrawal, using porn at inappropriate times or places, even physical harm, etc. Also, not every reinforcing habit really rises to the level of what is commonly thought of as addiction. Someone who has a sweet tooth and has sworn off sugar may occasionally lapse and have a cupcake without needing an intervention and a 12-step program, unless for example they were diabetic and were risking serious self-injury by letting their blood sugar spike (analogously, see "concrete harms" above).
Basically, I don't think there's much to be gained by framing this problem as a sexual addiction on his part, and on the contrary, it may raise the emotional stakes (increasing guilt, shame, black-and-white thinking, etc.) in a way that may be counterproductive if they want to stay together and work things out.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:57 PM on April 13, 2015
It is totally within your daughter's rights to decide that any amount of porn use is a dealbreaker for her, but this statement alone does not signal an addiction to me. My understanding is that people who are truly compulsive with their porn use tend to have suffered concrete harms from their behavior: for example, being frequently absent from or underperforming in work or school, giving up activities they used to enjoy, social withdrawal, using porn at inappropriate times or places, even physical harm, etc. Also, not every reinforcing habit really rises to the level of what is commonly thought of as addiction. Someone who has a sweet tooth and has sworn off sugar may occasionally lapse and have a cupcake without needing an intervention and a 12-step program, unless for example they were diabetic and were risking serious self-injury by letting their blood sugar spike (analogously, see "concrete harms" above).
Basically, I don't think there's much to be gained by framing this problem as a sexual addiction on his part, and on the contrary, it may raise the emotional stakes (increasing guilt, shame, black-and-white thinking, etc.) in a way that may be counterproductive if they want to stay together and work things out.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:57 PM on April 13, 2015
Porn may be providing a bit of a distraction here. I think that the point that your daughter may benefit from understanding is that masturbation (whether it involves porn or not) is a natural and normal part of sexuality and is not a inferior replacement for sex involving a partner. Masturbation is not a sign that someone is unhappy or unsatisfied with their non-solo sex life. It's a separate animal altogether and it's part of normal sexual expression.
It sounds like she may be taking her boyfriend's masturbation/porn habits personally when they really have nothing at all to do with her. They're simply a part of his sexual life that is independent of her relationship with him. His masturbation and solo sexual activities are not a reflection of his satisfaction with her. They are not a criticism or sign that she's not enough for him. Having a robust solo sexual life is not an addiction and it's absolutely normal for him, especially at his age. If she's concerned about whether or not he finds their sexual activity fun and satisfying, she should ask him. And, she should believe what he says.
posted by quince at 2:00 PM on April 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
It sounds like she may be taking her boyfriend's masturbation/porn habits personally when they really have nothing at all to do with her. They're simply a part of his sexual life that is independent of her relationship with him. His masturbation and solo sexual activities are not a reflection of his satisfaction with her. They are not a criticism or sign that she's not enough for him. Having a robust solo sexual life is not an addiction and it's absolutely normal for him, especially at his age. If she's concerned about whether or not he finds their sexual activity fun and satisfying, she should ask him. And, she should believe what he says.
posted by quince at 2:00 PM on April 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
There are 2 things that young people get needlessly wrapped up in when it comes to relationships:
1) Young women get all upset about their boyfriends' masturbation habits. When they get older they (hopefully) stop caring about trivial things like this, unless it involves kiddy porn or a serious addiction or something.*
2) Young men get all upset about their girlfriends past sexual escapades. When they get older, they stop caring about trivial things like this, unless they've gotten some terrible disease from her or something.
Most of us get over these things by the time we're in our late 20s. Your daughter will, too.
*Someone above mentioned that several of her boyfriends didn't watch porn. Those young men were lying to her, which is worse than watching porn.
posted by coolguymichael at 2:57 PM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
1) Young women get all upset about their boyfriends' masturbation habits. When they get older they (hopefully) stop caring about trivial things like this, unless it involves kiddy porn or a serious addiction or something.*
2) Young men get all upset about their girlfriends past sexual escapades. When they get older, they stop caring about trivial things like this, unless they've gotten some terrible disease from her or something.
Most of us get over these things by the time we're in our late 20s. Your daughter will, too.
*Someone above mentioned that several of her boyfriends didn't watch porn. Those young men were lying to her, which is worse than watching porn.
posted by coolguymichael at 2:57 PM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I had a feeling I was going to get some pushback on the "boyfriend didn't watch porn" thing. I understand it because I didn't believe it either. Maybe I should clarify that I don't mean they like, literally never ever watched porn. I actually meant they didn't watch it regularly, and less so when we started dating and they got some on the regular. And they would have no real reason to lie about this as I watch porn, have watched porn with my boyfriends, and don't care if they do on their own.They both brought it up on their own in that context actually. Like "it doesn't do that much for me / I haven't watched any in a while." I flat out didn't believe the first one and gave him a hard time about it. But he was just like "whatever, I really don't like it that much." Maybe he was really good at hiding it- I honestly 100% do not care if that's the case. But I had access to his laptop and desktop and never stumbled across it. I didn't exactly scour for it though.
Ultimately it doesn't matter as I was happy and we had a good sex life. So, lying or not lying, it didn't matter to me. I think it's actually kind of weird to INSIST that ALL men watch porn though. There are a lot of men in the world. I mean, sure maybe in the standard white internet-culture American mid 20s guy the odds are really really low. But there are 7 billion people on the planet and half of them are men. And when we clarify "infrequent" vs "never ever ever" (which I didn't mean to imply but probably did) the odds go way up.
There are also people who prefer erotica or whatever else and some of then are men, so it depends on what we define "porn" as - I typically picture the live action bleach blonde tan fake boobs type of "stereotypical porn" first.
But then, I dated a guy who didn't masturbate until he was 19 and another who lost his virginity at 25 so who knows, maybe I just tend to date outliers. Shrug.
posted by quincunx at 3:27 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ultimately it doesn't matter as I was happy and we had a good sex life. So, lying or not lying, it didn't matter to me. I think it's actually kind of weird to INSIST that ALL men watch porn though. There are a lot of men in the world. I mean, sure maybe in the standard white internet-culture American mid 20s guy the odds are really really low. But there are 7 billion people on the planet and half of them are men. And when we clarify "infrequent" vs "never ever ever" (which I didn't mean to imply but probably did) the odds go way up.
There are also people who prefer erotica or whatever else and some of then are men, so it depends on what we define "porn" as - I typically picture the live action bleach blonde tan fake boobs type of "stereotypical porn" first.
But then, I dated a guy who didn't masturbate until he was 19 and another who lost his virginity at 25 so who knows, maybe I just tend to date outliers. Shrug.
posted by quincunx at 3:27 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's completely incorrect to say all men watch porn. What a ridiculous statement. I can only offer anecdata but I can absolutely promise you I know of several men who don't for several reasons. These are people who I discuss many gross, oversharey things with so no one would even bat an eye at talk of porn - one even fessed up to incest once - so I'm as sure as I can be that they speak the truth. I know this isn't the question but I felt I needed to mention it.
For me, I'd be worried about the sort of porn he's watching. Even some of the most vanilla stuff can have seriously misogynistic undertones. Porn is the narrative through which most young men form their ideas about sex, and this can be absolutely problematic if they are ingesting yucky stuff. I know I've certainly come across these issues in my relationships - thoughts about what women 'should' enjoy, and how sex is something that happens to a woman, not with her with equal ideas about pleasure - and I would hate for her to form negative ideas about porn and relationships and her own boundaries so early on. Porn can be awesome, I'm not here to say it isn't. Feminist porn is a thing and an amazing thing at that. Even if she doesn't identify as a feminist, it is a pretty powerful teaching moment in which you can empower her to create her own boundaries and decide at this point of her life what she is and isn't willing to accept in a partner, without painting them as the bad guy. Maybe it's tied to a lot of insecurity about their current sex life, which is worth addressing as well. Share your own stories. Sex is tough man, especially when you're still basically navigating adult life for the first time.
Good luck. You're an awesome mum for wanting to help her with this.
posted by BeeJiddy at 3:34 PM on April 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
For me, I'd be worried about the sort of porn he's watching. Even some of the most vanilla stuff can have seriously misogynistic undertones. Porn is the narrative through which most young men form their ideas about sex, and this can be absolutely problematic if they are ingesting yucky stuff. I know I've certainly come across these issues in my relationships - thoughts about what women 'should' enjoy, and how sex is something that happens to a woman, not with her with equal ideas about pleasure - and I would hate for her to form negative ideas about porn and relationships and her own boundaries so early on. Porn can be awesome, I'm not here to say it isn't. Feminist porn is a thing and an amazing thing at that. Even if she doesn't identify as a feminist, it is a pretty powerful teaching moment in which you can empower her to create her own boundaries and decide at this point of her life what she is and isn't willing to accept in a partner, without painting them as the bad guy. Maybe it's tied to a lot of insecurity about their current sex life, which is worth addressing as well. Share your own stories. Sex is tough man, especially when you're still basically navigating adult life for the first time.
Good luck. You're an awesome mum for wanting to help her with this.
posted by BeeJiddy at 3:34 PM on April 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
Guys, not *everybody* does anything other than eating, breathing, and sleeping. Since watching porn is not a basic biological necessity, I promise you that there are people who do not do it. And some of those people are almost certainly men. For one thing, though this doesn't apply to boyfriends in general, there are people out there who identify as asexual. Some of those people are definitely male. Most men do watch porn. And that is fine. But I hate it when people confidently assert that it is not possible for someone who differs from the norm to exist.
But yeah, you're not gonna meet too many of those. Which is, again, fine. But it can take a while to *get* that it's fine, as a young female who has internalized a lot of our weird cultural norms.
I ran up against this when I was 23. The particular person I was involved with at the time was indeed a scumbag and a liar, but I wasn't consciously reacting to that part at the time. In retrospect I think that some of the insecurity that led me to be so upset about his porn habits probably did come from the fact that I had already caught him in several lies. If your daughter has reason to worry about anything else with her boyfriend, that's a logical place for the anxiety to come out. But that's not necessary for the reaction to occur.
What eventually made me relax on the issue was understanding, as several people pointed out above, that it's not that much different from fantasy. I mean, yes, in various ways it is, but not the way most people use it. It's just something you do to help get yourself off, and then you move on. When I really thought about the fact that I wasn't thinking of my partners when I masturbated, or sometimes even when we were having sex, I had to admit to myself that it wasn't about me being Not Enough. It's just a thing people do. As someone who wrote the firt paragraph of this comment, I have to concede that it's possible that there are people for whom one person and one person's image really are Enough. But as someone who lives in reality, I'm gonna note that you're pretty unlikely to meet one. That's not really a thing you can expect, or a thing you should want out of someone.
We tie too much of female self-worth to physical attractiveness. We represent males as constant sex-hounds primarily motivated by the prospect of sticking Tab A into Slot B, easily led astray. We feel like we have to watch them closely, lest the girl in the corner wiggle her eyebrows suggestively and destroy whatever bonding we've developed by means of having a different vagina. It's a view which infantilizes men and forces insecurities on women. It leads to all sorts of icky things, like rape culture and freaking out about porn and Men Are From Mars Et Cetera. I think realizing that there is no hard line between two entirely distinct groups of humanity which behave in entirely different ways (and Can't Help Themselves It's Just Natural) helps. I think realizing that both men and women (and everyone else as well) are basically people helps too. A relationship is about more than just sex (unless it's that kind of relationship, which is also fine), and the fact that that girl across the room, or those women on the internet, possess different vaginas doesn't invalidate that. In the end, men and women (or whoever) tend to want the same things. Those things involve jerking off, yes they do. But they also involve the whole "meaningful interaction" thing. Recognizing that that's actually more important than the slippery bits helps take the sting out of this. But it's a difficult thing to get your head around when swimming in the Boys Vs Girls cultural narrative, and at that age you haven't even had the opportunity to see anything different.
Getting past the idea that sex is icky also helps. Girls are allowed to want sex too, and not just be the gatekeepers to the Magical Land of Boning, which only men are allowed to actively enjoy (and they all want to, all the time). It's no different, and no worse, when we want it. Internalizing that male and female desire are not morally different is an important step.
This is a lot of stuff, and it takes a long time to really realize it. But it's why I don't care about porn anymore. There's a lot of bullshit to discard, but it's bullshit that's worth discarding for many reasons.
posted by Because at 4:24 PM on April 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
But yeah, you're not gonna meet too many of those. Which is, again, fine. But it can take a while to *get* that it's fine, as a young female who has internalized a lot of our weird cultural norms.
I ran up against this when I was 23. The particular person I was involved with at the time was indeed a scumbag and a liar, but I wasn't consciously reacting to that part at the time. In retrospect I think that some of the insecurity that led me to be so upset about his porn habits probably did come from the fact that I had already caught him in several lies. If your daughter has reason to worry about anything else with her boyfriend, that's a logical place for the anxiety to come out. But that's not necessary for the reaction to occur.
What eventually made me relax on the issue was understanding, as several people pointed out above, that it's not that much different from fantasy. I mean, yes, in various ways it is, but not the way most people use it. It's just something you do to help get yourself off, and then you move on. When I really thought about the fact that I wasn't thinking of my partners when I masturbated, or sometimes even when we were having sex, I had to admit to myself that it wasn't about me being Not Enough. It's just a thing people do. As someone who wrote the firt paragraph of this comment, I have to concede that it's possible that there are people for whom one person and one person's image really are Enough. But as someone who lives in reality, I'm gonna note that you're pretty unlikely to meet one. That's not really a thing you can expect, or a thing you should want out of someone.
We tie too much of female self-worth to physical attractiveness. We represent males as constant sex-hounds primarily motivated by the prospect of sticking Tab A into Slot B, easily led astray. We feel like we have to watch them closely, lest the girl in the corner wiggle her eyebrows suggestively and destroy whatever bonding we've developed by means of having a different vagina. It's a view which infantilizes men and forces insecurities on women. It leads to all sorts of icky things, like rape culture and freaking out about porn and Men Are From Mars Et Cetera. I think realizing that there is no hard line between two entirely distinct groups of humanity which behave in entirely different ways (and Can't Help Themselves It's Just Natural) helps. I think realizing that both men and women (and everyone else as well) are basically people helps too. A relationship is about more than just sex (unless it's that kind of relationship, which is also fine), and the fact that that girl across the room, or those women on the internet, possess different vaginas doesn't invalidate that. In the end, men and women (or whoever) tend to want the same things. Those things involve jerking off, yes they do. But they also involve the whole "meaningful interaction" thing. Recognizing that that's actually more important than the slippery bits helps take the sting out of this. But it's a difficult thing to get your head around when swimming in the Boys Vs Girls cultural narrative, and at that age you haven't even had the opportunity to see anything different.
Getting past the idea that sex is icky also helps. Girls are allowed to want sex too, and not just be the gatekeepers to the Magical Land of Boning, which only men are allowed to actively enjoy (and they all want to, all the time). It's no different, and no worse, when we want it. Internalizing that male and female desire are not morally different is an important step.
This is a lot of stuff, and it takes a long time to really realize it. But it's why I don't care about porn anymore. There's a lot of bullshit to discard, but it's bullshit that's worth discarding for many reasons.
posted by Because at 4:24 PM on April 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
I'm with softlord on this. Most dudes are gonna watch porn, and it will probably be very difficult to find a genuinely porn-free dude. It would be a lot easier on her to accept that everyone's got a fantasy life and it doesn't mean her boyfriend doesn't love her if he wanks it to models. He's being very honest with her about this, which is impressive for a teenage relationship.
From that telegraph porn article: "Single men watched pornography for an average of 40 minutes, three times a week, while those in relationships watched it 1.7 times a week for around 20 minutes."
Okay, so if her boyfriend is wanking it to pictures rather than his imagination for 20 minutes a time or two a week--is that so very bad? Where porn becomes a problem is if it's of the ah, illegal variety, or if the boyfriend would rather wank to it all day than have sex with a real live girl. That's the addiction territory.
I think what you need to work on with her here is education: how to judge an addiction, and how to calm down about how he should want her and only her forevermore and if he watches porn he's cheating--that's not quite how biology works, or how cheating works.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
From that telegraph porn article: "Single men watched pornography for an average of 40 minutes, three times a week, while those in relationships watched it 1.7 times a week for around 20 minutes."
Okay, so if her boyfriend is wanking it to pictures rather than his imagination for 20 minutes a time or two a week--is that so very bad? Where porn becomes a problem is if it's of the ah, illegal variety, or if the boyfriend would rather wank to it all day than have sex with a real live girl. That's the addiction territory.
I think what you need to work on with her here is education: how to judge an addiction, and how to calm down about how he should want her and only her forevermore and if he watches porn he's cheating--that's not quite how biology works, or how cheating works.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
The only thing that is important here is this:
She feels that it is cheating[...]
If she considers it cheating, then it is. She needs to understand that *she* makes the rules about her relationships, and no one else's opinion matters.
Also, there's some really bad advice and information in these comments. All men *don't* use porn. If you think they all do, you need to expand your circle of friends. Some men actually respect women enough not to objectify them. And some men find porn disgusting.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:30 PM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
She feels that it is cheating[...]
If she considers it cheating, then it is. She needs to understand that *she* makes the rules about her relationships, and no one else's opinion matters.
Also, there's some really bad advice and information in these comments. All men *don't* use porn. If you think they all do, you need to expand your circle of friends. Some men actually respect women enough not to objectify them. And some men find porn disgusting.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:30 PM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I just want to note really quickly that not every feminist thinker agrees that using porn or fantasizing about women inherently constitutes disrespect of women or perpetuating misogyny.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:39 PM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 9:39 PM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Good lord. I realize people mean well, but some of the answers here can not possibly come from parents. Please do not confuse (adult) sexual politics with parenting a girl who is anxious and crying about, essentially, wanting to be 100% romantically enough for her boyfriend.
Your mothering job is to let her know she is allowed to have her own feelings, to empower her to speak up or shift the terms of her relationship if she wants to, and to let her know her own sense of where she is now is OK, and to comfort her that it's not a reflection on her if she doesn't in fact claim 100% of her boyfriend's energy -- but to recognize that she is allowed to be where she is developmentally and certainly not to be pushed into the detailed nuances of sexual polemics that the girl herself has not brought up . She wants her boyfriend to think only of her. You can let her, gently, understand that people don't always think only of the one they love -- but without pushing her into nuanced territories of adult emotion and sexuality that she herself, from the data of this question, has given no indication to have come to on her own yet.
It's not as if the girl came you asking for reassurance that women can like porn by asking if she herself were "bad" for watching porn. Please do not project, intrude, or offer a manifesto into a mental and emotional domain that, for most people, is supposed to develop on its own course, without explicit parental intrusion.
posted by flourpot at 10:32 PM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Your mothering job is to let her know she is allowed to have her own feelings, to empower her to speak up or shift the terms of her relationship if she wants to, and to let her know her own sense of where she is now is OK, and to comfort her that it's not a reflection on her if she doesn't in fact claim 100% of her boyfriend's energy -- but to recognize that she is allowed to be where she is developmentally and certainly not to be pushed into the detailed nuances of sexual polemics that the girl herself has not brought up . She wants her boyfriend to think only of her. You can let her, gently, understand that people don't always think only of the one they love -- but without pushing her into nuanced territories of adult emotion and sexuality that she herself, from the data of this question, has given no indication to have come to on her own yet.
It's not as if the girl came you asking for reassurance that women can like porn by asking if she herself were "bad" for watching porn. Please do not project, intrude, or offer a manifesto into a mental and emotional domain that, for most people, is supposed to develop on its own course, without explicit parental intrusion.
posted by flourpot at 10:32 PM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
It seems your daughter is invested in the relationship; it might be helpful to suggest that this is an opportunity for her to get to know her boyfriend better by inquiring about his experience. E.g. what does he enjoy about watching porn? How did it feel when she asked him to stop? Does he feel like he is enough for her?
Also, she doesn't have to figure out what she thinks about porn in general, just in the context of this relationship. Sounds like her boyfriend is a guy to whom porn is important--important enough to keep using it after he told her he'd stop. That's the guy she's with. It's totally one hundred per cent okay for her to not be okay with that. But if she stays with him, expecting him to become someone he is not, then she's investing herself in a fantasy, not in a relationship with him. Which sounds kinda familiar, right?
posted by generalist at 1:22 PM on April 14, 2015
Also, she doesn't have to figure out what she thinks about porn in general, just in the context of this relationship. Sounds like her boyfriend is a guy to whom porn is important--important enough to keep using it after he told her he'd stop. That's the guy she's with. It's totally one hundred per cent okay for her to not be okay with that. But if she stays with him, expecting him to become someone he is not, then she's investing herself in a fantasy, not in a relationship with him. Which sounds kinda familiar, right?
posted by generalist at 1:22 PM on April 14, 2015
I'm late to reply to this, but some of the replies to this question concerned me quite deeply, angled towards 'understanding her boyfriend's motivations.' If she feels that upset about the issue, to me, it's an unhealthy relationship, and she should be supported in validating her feelings towards her boyfriend's porn habit.
I came across this article, and while it may sound extreme, I thought it useful to share here:
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/how-online-porn-is-warping-the-behaviour-of-boys-with-girls-20150424-1ms7jw.html?stb=twt
I hope you were able to have a conversation with your daughter about this, cherrybounce.
posted by NatalieWood at 3:53 PM on April 30, 2015
I came across this article, and while it may sound extreme, I thought it useful to share here:
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/how-online-porn-is-warping-the-behaviour-of-boys-with-girls-20150424-1ms7jw.html?stb=twt
I hope you were able to have a conversation with your daughter about this, cherrybounce.
posted by NatalieWood at 3:53 PM on April 30, 2015
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posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:09 AM on April 13, 2015 [14 favorites]