He may be cheating but maybe not?? What to do?
April 11, 2015 4:09 AM Subscribe
I have a dear friend that I've known for over 10 years. Went to visit her and her husband last weekend. While we were there, her husband told my husband that he's been spending time with a younger "party-girl" during his recent business trips. They hit the bars and stay up late drinking. My husband asked if he'd cheated and he answered "no comment". My husband was stunned and not sure how to handle the situation but is now quite upset about it and feels stuck in the middle. He also doesn't want to interfere in the situation any further.
Other details that may or may not compound the situation. They have 3 kids. He's been working out more lately and eating better - really focused on taking care of his appearance in general. He's also been traveling more for work then in the past.
Guess I need to know what you would do in this situation. I feel like saying something to her is overkill given that there's no proof of anything truly wrong going on. I've considered talking to him about it but this conversation was between him and my husband and my husband wants to leave this alone. She's a very close friend and I don't want to keep this potentially horrible situation secret from her. What would you do?
Other details that may or may not compound the situation. They have 3 kids. He's been working out more lately and eating better - really focused on taking care of his appearance in general. He's also been traveling more for work then in the past.
Guess I need to know what you would do in this situation. I feel like saying something to her is overkill given that there's no proof of anything truly wrong going on. I've considered talking to him about it but this conversation was between him and my husband and my husband wants to leave this alone. She's a very close friend and I don't want to keep this potentially horrible situation secret from her. What would you do?
Stay out of it - you don't know anything for sure. All you're likely to achieve is personal enmity from your friend's husband. If they get through these (possible) difficulties together, that's likely to lead to them (as a couple) distancing themselves from you; if the difficulties solidify into something serious, it may be much harder for you to provide the support your friend would need.
Keep in close touch with her and wait and see.
posted by Azara at 4:32 AM on April 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Keep in close touch with her and wait and see.
posted by Azara at 4:32 AM on April 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Mind your own business. They are adults and can manage their own relationships.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 4:35 AM on April 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 4:35 AM on April 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Nothing. But I would make an extra effort to be present and engaged with my friend so she definitely could use me as a source of safety and solace if needed.
posted by carmicha at 4:36 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by carmicha at 4:36 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It's likely you'll lose her friendship whatever you do.
If it were me, I'd tell her. I think that's what the husband is expecting. But I would tell her what you know and tell her you don't want to go in to it any further, but that he told your husband and your first priority is to her. She can choose to get tested/open their marriage/divorce/have counselling or whatever she likes... but if he's humble-bragging to your husband, she needs to hear it from a compassionate and kind friend before someone tells her less elegantly.
And her husband is totally sleeping with this woman, or wanting you to believe he is. Either way he's gross for involving you. By telling your husband, he knew he was effectively telling you.
You can definitely say nothing and that would be considered ethical by lots of people. I go with what I'd want to know... and I'd want to know. And I'd tell. But I'd also know the cost it would likely take on our friendship. It always does.
posted by taff at 4:37 AM on April 11, 2015 [82 favorites]
If it were me, I'd tell her. I think that's what the husband is expecting. But I would tell her what you know and tell her you don't want to go in to it any further, but that he told your husband and your first priority is to her. She can choose to get tested/open their marriage/divorce/have counselling or whatever she likes... but if he's humble-bragging to your husband, she needs to hear it from a compassionate and kind friend before someone tells her less elegantly.
And her husband is totally sleeping with this woman, or wanting you to believe he is. Either way he's gross for involving you. By telling your husband, he knew he was effectively telling you.
You can definitely say nothing and that would be considered ethical by lots of people. I go with what I'd want to know... and I'd want to know. And I'd tell. But I'd also know the cost it would likely take on our friendship. It always does.
posted by taff at 4:37 AM on April 11, 2015 [82 favorites]
Did he tell your husband in such a way that your husband felt like he was telling him a secret? Did he say "don't tell my wife" or "between you and me" or whisper? If not, I don't see why you couldn't go to your friend and say, "Joe told Sam that he's been partying a lot on business trips lately, are you okay with that?" and then gauge whether she's surprised or not, and what she knows, and go from there.
A lot of cheaters want to be caught. If he's telling your husband (and "no comment" is essentially a "yes") he's not being very careful and is essentially dumping his dirty work in your lap.
posted by amro at 4:38 AM on April 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
A lot of cheaters want to be caught. If he's telling your husband (and "no comment" is essentially a "yes") he's not being very careful and is essentially dumping his dirty work in your lap.
posted by amro at 4:38 AM on April 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
If I were your friend, I'd want you to tell me about that conversation. You know your friend well - what do you think she'd want you to do?
posted by hazyjane at 4:38 AM on April 11, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by hazyjane at 4:38 AM on April 11, 2015 [23 favorites]
He's totally cheating on her. If someone asks if you're cheating and you're not, you set them straight in no uncertain terms. 'No comment' is what you tell someone when you want to admit you're doing it without actually saying it. Plus his other actions strongly reinforce this.
Anyway, back to your question. Do you tell her? Well, if I was the friend I would definitely want to know. But don't tell her what you've decided from the conversation, tell her the exact wording and let her make her own call as to what it means.
Or you could take the other avenue and basically tell the cheater that unless he tells his wife, you will.
I know conventional wisdom says to stay out of other's business but for most people, the idea that their closest friends or family knew they were being cheated on and said nothing, well that would be enough for them to end the friendship anyway. If you don't care enough about the relationship to let someone know that they're being hurt and their sexual health is at risk from their supposedly monogamous partner, how good a friend are you, really?
posted by Jubey at 5:07 AM on April 11, 2015 [57 favorites]
Anyway, back to your question. Do you tell her? Well, if I was the friend I would definitely want to know. But don't tell her what you've decided from the conversation, tell her the exact wording and let her make her own call as to what it means.
Or you could take the other avenue and basically tell the cheater that unless he tells his wife, you will.
I know conventional wisdom says to stay out of other's business but for most people, the idea that their closest friends or family knew they were being cheated on and said nothing, well that would be enough for them to end the friendship anyway. If you don't care enough about the relationship to let someone know that they're being hurt and their sexual health is at risk from their supposedly monogamous partner, how good a friend are you, really?
posted by Jubey at 5:07 AM on April 11, 2015 [57 favorites]
If I were your friend, I'd rather hear it from you than anywhere else. And as others have said, if your friend finds out you knew before her, she'll feel even worse. This is a terrible situation for you to be in, I'm sorry!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 5:09 AM on April 11, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 5:09 AM on April 11, 2015 [13 favorites]
She's a very close friend and I don't want to keep this potentially horrible situation secret from her.
Your loyalty is to her. That is admirable. You should follow that impulse.
And here's the worst part: her husband wants you to tell her. That's the only possible reason that he brought the conversation to that point. He wants you to tell her because he thinks that it will deflect some of her anger at you.
posted by Etrigan at 5:12 AM on April 11, 2015 [26 favorites]
Your loyalty is to her. That is admirable. You should follow that impulse.
And here's the worst part: her husband wants you to tell her. That's the only possible reason that he brought the conversation to that point. He wants you to tell her because he thinks that it will deflect some of her anger at you.
posted by Etrigan at 5:12 AM on April 11, 2015 [26 favorites]
Plus one that he is either cheating on her or hoping to. Also think that him telling your husband in the way he did was a really shitty thing to do to both of you (in addition to him cheating on his wife/ preparing to do so). I'd also vote he wanted you to tell his wife (or else he is a cretin).
I'd tell the wife, but I'd tell her indirectly, kind of steer the conversation in such a way that you talk about the two of them "partying a lot recently" (as in the husband said he is partying a lot on work trips, so you assumed they party a lot together as well) etc. The reason I would do it this way is to be able to give her the actual words said during the conversation between the husbands in a way that allows her to save (some) face if she wants to. Also, to give her space to sort this out with her husband exactly in the way she wants to without feeling obliged to act on this in a way that she might think you expect her to.
posted by miorita at 5:21 AM on April 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd tell the wife, but I'd tell her indirectly, kind of steer the conversation in such a way that you talk about the two of them "partying a lot recently" (as in the husband said he is partying a lot on work trips, so you assumed they party a lot together as well) etc. The reason I would do it this way is to be able to give her the actual words said during the conversation between the husbands in a way that allows her to save (some) face if she wants to. Also, to give her space to sort this out with her husband exactly in the way she wants to without feeling obliged to act on this in a way that she might think you expect her to.
posted by miorita at 5:21 AM on April 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am so sick and tired of people saying "don't say anything" in these situations--not just answerers here; everywhere.
Wouldn't you want to know? That's the beginning and end of it, for me. So fucking what if you lose the friendship? While it's possible that your friends have an open or open-ish marriage, it's more likely that they don't, and your friend is almost certainly at risk for STIs that she knows nothing about. (And if the marriage is open, then you're not telling your friend anything they aren't aware of, or at the very least aware of the possibility of.)
Staying out of it is enforcing the bro code. It's saying it's okay for your friend's husband to be off fucking other people.
I would want--need--to be told in this situation. Basically everyone would want to know. Tell her exactly what her husband said, and say "I'm sorry that I'm the one bringing this to you. I know you would tell me if my husband had said the same things. I'm here for you if you need anything."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:21 AM on April 11, 2015 [134 favorites]
Wouldn't you want to know? That's the beginning and end of it, for me. So fucking what if you lose the friendship? While it's possible that your friends have an open or open-ish marriage, it's more likely that they don't, and your friend is almost certainly at risk for STIs that she knows nothing about. (And if the marriage is open, then you're not telling your friend anything they aren't aware of, or at the very least aware of the possibility of.)
Staying out of it is enforcing the bro code. It's saying it's okay for your friend's husband to be off fucking other people.
I would want--need--to be told in this situation. Basically everyone would want to know. Tell her exactly what her husband said, and say "I'm sorry that I'm the one bringing this to you. I know you would tell me if my husband had said the same things. I'm here for you if you need anything."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:21 AM on April 11, 2015 [134 favorites]
Repeat the conversation her husband had with your husband and tell her you don't know if he was kidding in a dickish overgrown fratty douche way, or if she needs to look into starting to arm herself financially in case something is happening.
Also, if her husband is weirding out the neighbors/her friends, your friend needs to know.
I'd never keep anything like that from a dear friend, especially one who is a mom to 3 kids.
posted by discopolo at 5:36 AM on April 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
Also, if her husband is weirding out the neighbors/her friends, your friend needs to know.
I'd never keep anything like that from a dear friend, especially one who is a mom to 3 kids.
posted by discopolo at 5:36 AM on April 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
Friend of mine found out dear hubby was cheating the hard way...a positive STD test from her doctor. By that time, dear hubby had run up all the (cosigned) credit cards and cleaned out their life savings. Then he walked away. She would have given anything to find out earlier.
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:40 AM on April 11, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:40 AM on April 11, 2015 [31 favorites]
Jesus, if my husband confessed this to a mutual friend and they never told me (out of whatever principle), I'd be furious. Of course you tell her.
This isn't like you saw him in a coffeeshop with another woman and you don't know if you should say anything.
Her husband admitted that he's been partying with another woman. That's the definition of cheating; don't second-guess it. And she's at home with the kids while he's having this second life? No, no, NO. You tell her exactly what your husband heard.
She needs to know this, she needs support, she needs to get herself tested ASAP.
posted by kinetic at 5:46 AM on April 11, 2015 [32 favorites]
This isn't like you saw him in a coffeeshop with another woman and you don't know if you should say anything.
Her husband admitted that he's been partying with another woman. That's the definition of cheating; don't second-guess it. And she's at home with the kids while he's having this second life? No, no, NO. You tell her exactly what your husband heard.
She needs to know this, she needs support, she needs to get herself tested ASAP.
posted by kinetic at 5:46 AM on April 11, 2015 [32 favorites]
Advance knowledge would also let her protect her finances, and begin divorce proceedings on her terms, rather than having it be sprung on her on his timetable, if that's the direction things are heading.
posted by gerryblog at 5:57 AM on April 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by gerryblog at 5:57 AM on April 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
There are two possible reasons he told your husband:
1) He wants his wife to find out and wants you to be the messenger.
or (and this one feels more likely though I don't know this guy so I really don't know)
2) He thought your husband would keep it to himself and not tell you because of bro code, and he wanted someone to brag about his gross philandering with. Based on the conversation as you've written it here, it sounds more like a 14 year old's I touched a boob boasting than it does like someone who's actually carrying on a full-fledged affair, but still.
Both are pretty lame. Either he wants to hurt his wife or he thinks so little of marriage that he assumes your husband won't tell you about this.
Personally I would ask your friend about it. Not "he's cheating" but maybe something like, "Bob told Fred he's been doing a lot of partying with a younger woman on his business trips, what's that about?" She's been a close friend for 10 years. Would you want her to tell you in this situation? I would want to know.
posted by phunniemee at 5:58 AM on April 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
1) He wants his wife to find out and wants you to be the messenger.
or (and this one feels more likely though I don't know this guy so I really don't know)
2) He thought your husband would keep it to himself and not tell you because of bro code, and he wanted someone to brag about his gross philandering with. Based on the conversation as you've written it here, it sounds more like a 14 year old's I touched a boob boasting than it does like someone who's actually carrying on a full-fledged affair, but still.
Both are pretty lame. Either he wants to hurt his wife or he thinks so little of marriage that he assumes your husband won't tell you about this.
Personally I would ask your friend about it. Not "he's cheating" but maybe something like, "Bob told Fred he's been doing a lot of partying with a younger woman on his business trips, what's that about?" She's been a close friend for 10 years. Would you want her to tell you in this situation? I would want to know.
posted by phunniemee at 5:58 AM on April 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
So a friend of my Dad's cheated on his wife. My mom and his the were friends. My dad's friend wound up deceiving his wife by attributing certain things to my dad. Eventually this got back to my dad, and for professional reasons this escalated. In the end, the wife found evidence in her husband's car and brought it up to him. He pinned it on my dad, and started a conversation with my mom.
My mom told her what went on, and the wife, who had had suspicions for years - refused to believe my mom or the pretty irrefutable facts. None of them were ever friends again. Ever.
Now here's the thing... You can't make things right. There is no good path from here.
If a friend of mine had said this to me, and our wives were friends... I might have had to sleep on it a few days, but in the end I would have to go to my friend and let them know that it wasn't fair of them to put me in the position of knowing, that their behavior wasn't appropriate, and most importantly that I would likely need to take a break from our friendship so they had time to think about the relationship they want with their wife and work on correcting the situation (whether that be coming clean, getting a divorce, couples counseling, what have you). I'd let them know that I'd be there for them if they needed help getting things moving in the right direction, but that things in their current state were irrevocably changed between us.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:02 AM on April 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
My mom told her what went on, and the wife, who had had suspicions for years - refused to believe my mom or the pretty irrefutable facts. None of them were ever friends again. Ever.
Now here's the thing... You can't make things right. There is no good path from here.
If a friend of mine had said this to me, and our wives were friends... I might have had to sleep on it a few days, but in the end I would have to go to my friend and let them know that it wasn't fair of them to put me in the position of knowing, that their behavior wasn't appropriate, and most importantly that I would likely need to take a break from our friendship so they had time to think about the relationship they want with their wife and work on correcting the situation (whether that be coming clean, getting a divorce, couples counseling, what have you). I'd let them know that I'd be there for them if they needed help getting things moving in the right direction, but that things in their current state were irrevocably changed between us.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:02 AM on April 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, don't forget: he told your husband. If she finds out, and finds out that you guys knew, she'll never trust you again. She might be mad at learning this in the short term, but at least she knows you have her back or that someone is in her corner.
It's her husband's douchey bragging that's the reason this is your business: he inserted you guys into this, maybe he thought he can get your husband to cover for him sometimes.
Her husband is being totally inappropriate and that's enough to say something. And your husband is just being avoidant because it's always the easiest thing to do.
You'll just feel guilty afterwards if you don't give this woman a chance now or ASAP to know her husband is saying weird stuff to her friends. She's a person who is with a guy who has no conscience or doesn't mind humiliating her behind her back to friends.
posted by discopolo at 6:13 AM on April 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's her husband's douchey bragging that's the reason this is your business: he inserted you guys into this, maybe he thought he can get your husband to cover for him sometimes.
Her husband is being totally inappropriate and that's enough to say something. And your husband is just being avoidant because it's always the easiest thing to do.
You'll just feel guilty afterwards if you don't give this woman a chance now or ASAP to know her husband is saying weird stuff to her friends. She's a person who is with a guy who has no conscience or doesn't mind humiliating her behind her back to friends.
posted by discopolo at 6:13 AM on April 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Can you dig a little deeper with your husband into why he wants to leave this alone? This is a conversation where the topic is marital infidelity and you, being married, want to be sure you are on the same page. This guy did a pretty horrible thing by telling your husband and expecting him to keep it quiet, and he's right to feel put in the middle. And, as you can see, this subject divides perfectly reasonable people and your husband is like a lot of people in not wanting to alert your friend. He's not a jerk for leaning that way. But make sure that you two are OK in all of this.
posted by BibiRose at 6:19 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:19 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
And consider this as well: if you tell her what her husband said and she angrily turns to you and asks, "Why would you tell me something like that? What's wrong with you? I never want to talk to you again," you can say, "Because if this were happening to ME, I'd want to know and I'd hope you would tell me."
posted by kinetic at 6:30 AM on April 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by kinetic at 6:30 AM on April 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Ask Mefi isn't for chatting or arguing with other commenters; just address the OP with your own helpful advice. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:46 AM on April 11, 2015
posted by taz (staff) at 6:46 AM on April 11, 2015
Common reasons for not telling:
"It will cause drama" - there's already drama, caused by your friend's husband. Your friend is the only one who doesn't know yet. That doesn't seem fair to me, since she's the one most likely to be hurt.
"You don't know what goes on between a couple" - very true. Maybe they have an agreement, maybe she already knows and doesn't care, maybe she knows and doesn't know what to do, whatever. In that case, telling her won't hurt. But Occam's razor is that he's a douchebag cheating on his wife and hoping you'll do the dirty work of telling her so he doesn't have to.
"It will ruin your friendship" - friend's husband already ruined the friendship by telling your husband. You are now keeping secrets from her you don't want to keep, you're both going to have to keep a straight face in front of them when they talk couple-talk as if there was no cheating, and the deceptions will pile up. You might be able to save this. But at the very least you can let your friend know the truth, assuming she doesn't already as per the point above.
If you feel like it's not your secret to tell, then let her husband know that he needs to come clean. If they have an agreement or an open marriage he can tell you then. But don't bluff. If he doesn't tell her, you need to. At the very least she needs to get tested. If she shoots you for being the messenger, that's crappy but you'll have a clear conscience.
posted by harriet vane at 6:47 AM on April 11, 2015 [19 favorites]
"It will cause drama" - there's already drama, caused by your friend's husband. Your friend is the only one who doesn't know yet. That doesn't seem fair to me, since she's the one most likely to be hurt.
"You don't know what goes on between a couple" - very true. Maybe they have an agreement, maybe she already knows and doesn't care, maybe she knows and doesn't know what to do, whatever. In that case, telling her won't hurt. But Occam's razor is that he's a douchebag cheating on his wife and hoping you'll do the dirty work of telling her so he doesn't have to.
"It will ruin your friendship" - friend's husband already ruined the friendship by telling your husband. You are now keeping secrets from her you don't want to keep, you're both going to have to keep a straight face in front of them when they talk couple-talk as if there was no cheating, and the deceptions will pile up. You might be able to save this. But at the very least you can let your friend know the truth, assuming she doesn't already as per the point above.
If you feel like it's not your secret to tell, then let her husband know that he needs to come clean. If they have an agreement or an open marriage he can tell you then. But don't bluff. If he doesn't tell her, you need to. At the very least she needs to get tested. If she shoots you for being the messenger, that's crappy but you'll have a clear conscience.
posted by harriet vane at 6:47 AM on April 11, 2015 [19 favorites]
Your husband doesn't want to say anything. So either don't or change his mind.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:53 AM on April 11, 2015
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:53 AM on April 11, 2015
This was not a one time deeply regretted indiscretion that was divulged to your husband by a man trying to wrestle with the guilt of what he had done. This was a man freely bragging to your husband in a reckless and disturbing manner.
One of two things is going on here. He wants to get caught and leave your friend and doesn't have the guts to do it. If you don't tell her, she will likely find out soon and probably in a far more dramatic and hurtful fashion. Possibly after being exposed to an STD, but I don't want to overstate that risk, although it is a risk.
Or your friend already knows and is in deep denial. They are staying together for the kids. Something along those lines, which is pretty horrendous. In that case you may be rubbing salt in the wounds, however I think if this is a close friend she would understand your heart is in the right place.
She's a very close friend. You have to tell her. It's just that simple. I don't envy you. This is a horrible position to be in. I would call her up while he's on a business trip and just relay word for word the conversation your husband had with no judgment or extra commentary and let her draw her own conclusions.
Also this guy sounds like a grade A piece of shit. Don't give him the opportunity to deplete their savings or get the legal upper hand before he leaves your friend.
posted by whoaali at 6:57 AM on April 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
One of two things is going on here. He wants to get caught and leave your friend and doesn't have the guts to do it. If you don't tell her, she will likely find out soon and probably in a far more dramatic and hurtful fashion. Possibly after being exposed to an STD, but I don't want to overstate that risk, although it is a risk.
Or your friend already knows and is in deep denial. They are staying together for the kids. Something along those lines, which is pretty horrendous. In that case you may be rubbing salt in the wounds, however I think if this is a close friend she would understand your heart is in the right place.
She's a very close friend. You have to tell her. It's just that simple. I don't envy you. This is a horrible position to be in. I would call her up while he's on a business trip and just relay word for word the conversation your husband had with no judgment or extra commentary and let her draw her own conclusions.
Also this guy sounds like a grade A piece of shit. Don't give him the opportunity to deplete their savings or get the legal upper hand before he leaves your friend.
posted by whoaali at 6:57 AM on April 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
He's totally cheating on her. If someone asks if you're cheating and you're not, you set them straight in no uncertain terms. 'No comment' is what you tell someone when you want to admit you're doing it without actually saying it.
People will also lie (or "no comment") about things like having sex with an attractive younger person because they think that doing so gives them some kind of status. On top of that, there is a lot of sexual stuff that isn't intercourse, so an answer to "Have you cheated?" isn't always perfectly clear, depending on how people are parsing their definitions.
My reaction is to stay out of it, unless you and she are super close friends. Getting involved in other people's drama is never good and rarely ends well. But if the two of you are that close, you have the unenviable choice of not telling (and potentially hurting your friendship if she resents not being told) and telling (and potentially hurting your friendship if she, as is common, chooses to believe him instead of you).
The husband is a dick to put you guys in this position, regardless of whether or not he is doing anything with anyone. He is being rude and inappropriate, and in doing so has put you in a difficult position that is forcing you to choose between crappy alternatives.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
People will also lie (or "no comment") about things like having sex with an attractive younger person because they think that doing so gives them some kind of status. On top of that, there is a lot of sexual stuff that isn't intercourse, so an answer to "Have you cheated?" isn't always perfectly clear, depending on how people are parsing their definitions.
My reaction is to stay out of it, unless you and she are super close friends. Getting involved in other people's drama is never good and rarely ends well. But if the two of you are that close, you have the unenviable choice of not telling (and potentially hurting your friendship if she resents not being told) and telling (and potentially hurting your friendship if she, as is common, chooses to believe him instead of you).
The husband is a dick to put you guys in this position, regardless of whether or not he is doing anything with anyone. He is being rude and inappropriate, and in doing so has put you in a difficult position that is forcing you to choose between crappy alternatives.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
What are the divorce laws of the state? Would it be maximally effective for her to have incontrovertible truth that he is a douchebag (sounds like he is, BTW) for the sake of the divorce? Does she wish to retain full custody of the kids? What is the scenario that allows her an advantageous exit?
Because if it was me, I would be PISSED if I was not informed. I have the interest of me and my children to consider. If that means I financially and socially NUKE my adulterous husband from space then I will do so. The husband obviously does not have the interests of his wife or children at heart and is frankly, a selfish bastard for dragging in other people into the drama. I would be destroyed if my husband cheated; put my health at risk; financially ruined the family, not him, the family; humiliated me to friends and got to play at the end of the day. By not telling your friend you are being made complicit in a series of damaging events by the husband.
posted by jadepearl at 7:19 AM on April 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
Because if it was me, I would be PISSED if I was not informed. I have the interest of me and my children to consider. If that means I financially and socially NUKE my adulterous husband from space then I will do so. The husband obviously does not have the interests of his wife or children at heart and is frankly, a selfish bastard for dragging in other people into the drama. I would be destroyed if my husband cheated; put my health at risk; financially ruined the family, not him, the family; humiliated me to friends and got to play at the end of the day. By not telling your friend you are being made complicit in a series of damaging events by the husband.
posted by jadepearl at 7:19 AM on April 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
I guess I'm in the minority here based on the answers you've received thus far, but my vote is to stay out of it if only because it is not obvious to me that the guy is cheating. The interaction he had with your husband reads to me like false braggadocio; a guy trying to impress another by implying that some young, hot, desirable woman is into him, with the "No Comment" not necessarily an admission of guilt but immature macho posturing (it reminds me of the kind of high school bragging where a guy has no physical interaction with a girl, but leaves things vague when discussing it with his friends so they can imagine things were more intense than they were without him actually lying about it). Before inserting myself into somebody else's marriage with the intention of causing strife I would think at minimum you'd want to know for sure that infidelity is occurring, rather than just going off a hunch.
We could do the point/counterpoint all day long of the pros/cons of "Tell/Don't Tell" with regard to telling a friend that his/her partner is having an affair. This situation is different to me, though, because the affair is assumed to be true, not actually true to anyone's knowledge at this point. By going to the wife with this little information ("So your husband may or may not be having an affair"), it would be creating drama for drama's sake.
posted by The Gooch at 7:28 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
We could do the point/counterpoint all day long of the pros/cons of "Tell/Don't Tell" with regard to telling a friend that his/her partner is having an affair. This situation is different to me, though, because the affair is assumed to be true, not actually true to anyone's knowledge at this point. By going to the wife with this little information ("So your husband may or may not be having an affair"), it would be creating drama for drama's sake.
posted by The Gooch at 7:28 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
cheating or not, i'd like to know if my husband were the sort of jackass that would try to win cool points by bragging about maybe fucking a younger woman (and as for your own marriage, i'd also be curious why this guy thought your husband would be receptive to this sort of bragging). he's humiliating her - maybe that's what he gets off on - maybe he's just a jerk who doesn't care about her - either way you should tell her what you know. if your husband didn't want it told, he could have kept it to himself.
posted by nadawi at 7:39 AM on April 11, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:39 AM on April 11, 2015 [33 favorites]
Although I agree she should be told if he's definitely cheating, the problem here is you really don't have any clear cut proof. It's not like you saw him out obviously fooling around with this girl, all you have is suspicious but very vague stuff.
My feeling is that if you say anything, the guy is just going to deny deny deny. Deny that he said anything about hanging out with anyone, deny the "no comment" thing, explain away the new workout regime as just a health nut phase, etc. etc. And in the wife's situation (having children and all), I'd guess that she will desperately want to believe him rather than you and your husband.
What I'm getting at is say something if you feel you must, but be prepared for the very real possibility that it will backfire in a big way and you might just end up angering/losing your friends.
posted by Kimmalah at 7:51 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
My feeling is that if you say anything, the guy is just going to deny deny deny. Deny that he said anything about hanging out with anyone, deny the "no comment" thing, explain away the new workout regime as just a health nut phase, etc. etc. And in the wife's situation (having children and all), I'd guess that she will desperately want to believe him rather than you and your husband.
What I'm getting at is say something if you feel you must, but be prepared for the very real possibility that it will backfire in a big way and you might just end up angering/losing your friends.
posted by Kimmalah at 7:51 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
At the very least, I think you owe it to your friend to open up a conversation about how she's feeling about her life and relationship.
So maybe you go to her and say, Hey friend, we haven't had a chance to really talk in a while. How's life? How's your family? Your husband is travelling a lot these days. Is that hard for you? How's your marriage?
And then you take your cues from her. She may already know what's up. She may not want to know. She may be feeling upset and insecure and want to talk about it. She may be clueless. But I think that what you should do depends on what she wants, and the best way to try to figure that out is to start talking with her about the subject generally.
posted by decathecting at 7:58 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
So maybe you go to her and say, Hey friend, we haven't had a chance to really talk in a while. How's life? How's your family? Your husband is travelling a lot these days. Is that hard for you? How's your marriage?
And then you take your cues from her. She may already know what's up. She may not want to know. She may be feeling upset and insecure and want to talk about it. She may be clueless. But I think that what you should do depends on what she wants, and the best way to try to figure that out is to start talking with her about the subject generally.
posted by decathecting at 7:58 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would play dumb and report but not investigate, meaning as soon as possible I'd say, "Hey friend, your husband said something kind of weird to my husband the other day. He said he was partying a lot and even used the term "party girl." I'm sure it was innocent, but I just wanted to let you know in case he's saying things like that without realizing how other people might be interpreting it."
posted by Yellow Silver Maple at 7:58 AM on April 11, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Yellow Silver Maple at 7:58 AM on April 11, 2015 [15 favorites]
Agreed that telling your friend is the way to go. Even if there's no proof of cheating, the conversation itself is a huge red flag, and most of us would want to know.
And even if your friend has trouble accepting it, she'll probably come around eventually. Maybe she can write off one case of hearing something screwed up, but it will be harder for her to dismiss the second thing and the third thing she hears from someone or finds on her own, so if you speak up now, you are making it more likely that she will be more responsive to the next red flag, even if she has a hard time accepting things now. Which is a big if.
posted by alphanerd at 8:02 AM on April 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
And even if your friend has trouble accepting it, she'll probably come around eventually. Maybe she can write off one case of hearing something screwed up, but it will be harder for her to dismiss the second thing and the third thing she hears from someone or finds on her own, so if you speak up now, you are making it more likely that she will be more responsive to the next red flag, even if she has a hard time accepting things now. Which is a big if.
posted by alphanerd at 8:02 AM on April 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Well, you don't actually know if he's been cheating, but you know he's been partying without your friend. The most straightforward thing to do is: the next time you are with your friend AND her husband, say to him: "So I heard you've been out partying a lot lately. And you look like you're working out more and dressing up. You out partying with anyone special?"
posted by gt2 at 8:03 AM on April 11, 2015
posted by gt2 at 8:03 AM on April 11, 2015
Yellow Silver Maple: "I would play dumb and report but not investigate, meaning as soon as possible I'd say, "Hey friend, your husband said something kind of weird to my husband the other day. He said he was partying a lot and even used the term "party girl." I'm sure it was innocent, but I just wanted to let you know in case he's saying things like that without realizing how other people might be interpreting it.""
I would do something quite similar; I would have gone with "Your husband said some stuff the other day that made my husband/me really uncomfortable because it seemed really disrespectful to you. [Here's what he said.] I don't know what his deal is, he was probably just peacocking, but I felt really unhappy because to me it seemed disrespectful of you."
In my cultural milieu, this would very firmly give her the message that her husband might be cheating, while also providing her some face-saving cover ("oh, you know how men are with locker-room talk") that allows her not to have to directly confront the fact that you suspect he's cheating right in that moment, and lets her mull her options while leaving it open for her to come back to you and say, "Yeah that was all talk, I set him straight" or "Dude I'm leaving my husband, help me."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:19 AM on April 11, 2015 [80 favorites]
I would do something quite similar; I would have gone with "Your husband said some stuff the other day that made my husband/me really uncomfortable because it seemed really disrespectful to you. [Here's what he said.] I don't know what his deal is, he was probably just peacocking, but I felt really unhappy because to me it seemed disrespectful of you."
In my cultural milieu, this would very firmly give her the message that her husband might be cheating, while also providing her some face-saving cover ("oh, you know how men are with locker-room talk") that allows her not to have to directly confront the fact that you suspect he's cheating right in that moment, and lets her mull her options while leaving it open for her to come back to you and say, "Yeah that was all talk, I set him straight" or "Dude I'm leaving my husband, help me."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:19 AM on April 11, 2015 [80 favorites]
I would have a chat with your friend, but NOT approach it as "I found this proof of cheating, and therefore I must tell you!" Of course you don't know if there's an open relationship, or she knows what's going on, or maybe he was just bragging and not cheating. Nonetheless, you can let her know what happened in the conversation and reassure here that you're not putting and judgements on her if she wants to let this go and/or is already aware and okay with it. (Honestly -- if they do have an open relationship, the husband is STILL acting horribly in revealing this to mutual friends in this salacious/gossipy way without her being involved.) I would try something along the lines of -- "Hey, my husband let me know about a weird conversation he had with your husband last weekend. I just wanted to let you know what happened so you can make your own judgement about what, if anything, to do about it. I support you no matter what."
If he is cheating and she does not know, she absolutely has the right to put her finances, health, and kids first, and she needs full information to do this. I think the risk that you slightly embarass her about her open relationship is way less than the risk that this douchebag runs up huge debts or gives her an STI.
posted by rainbowbrite at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
If he is cheating and she does not know, she absolutely has the right to put her finances, health, and kids first, and she needs full information to do this. I think the risk that you slightly embarass her about her open relationship is way less than the risk that this douchebag runs up huge debts or gives her an STI.
posted by rainbowbrite at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'd tell my spouse "fuck that, i'm telling my friend what was said."
I'd tell the probably cheating spouse "fuck you for being a shit and dragging my spouse into your drama."
I'd tell my friend "this fucker is probably fucking around on you or at the very least doing some fucked up fuckery"
Then I'd go get a bottle of wine, 'cause fucking hell, what a day.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:07 AM on April 11, 2015 [43 favorites]
I'd tell the probably cheating spouse "fuck you for being a shit and dragging my spouse into your drama."
I'd tell my friend "this fucker is probably fucking around on you or at the very least doing some fucked up fuckery"
Then I'd go get a bottle of wine, 'cause fucking hell, what a day.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:07 AM on April 11, 2015 [43 favorites]
I'd start by working it out with your husband.
Then, if at all possible, I'd tell her, but I'd approach that conversation carefully. If she truly doesn't know, this will hurt a lot, and denial will be her first reaction, and some of her feelings will be projected onto you. (Or, on preview, be like Brandon Blatcher and be passionately on her side and ready to demonize him. That might work too.)
In particular, approach the conversation in a way that leaves her as in control as possible, e.g., the recommendation above to ask "how do you feel about that?" or "what's that about?" You don't want to come across as gawking as though her marriage was a trainwreck. (This all probably goes without saying; I'm stating the obvious here.)
Someone above recommended saying "Bob told Fred he's been doing a lot of partying with a younger woman on his business trips, what's that about?" Good advice, except I'd at least omit the word "younger." You don't want to give any fuel to the "what's wrong with me?" reaction to being cheated on. One of the Brene Brown books people recommend on MetaFilter a lot talks about different kinds of shame people feel, and one is feeling unworthy because they're no longer 21 and a Size 2, so even if you've managed to shrug off societal bullshit of that sort, it's worth knowing that it's a common affliction. Again, stating the obvious, I'm sure.
I'd come in with a bunch of reassuring comments ready in case the conversation goes down that route. (It's not her fault. This could happen to anyone. No matter what challenges they were having he could have handled them in different ways, like therapy. She's a good mom.)
On the other hand, you might be met by a wall of denial or by "I know, but I pretend I don't, since I think he's going to get over it soon." Be prepared to gracefully but authentically react to that, too. Maybe just reiterate that it worries you that he's to the point of telling your husband, and that you're there for her if there's anything you can do.
posted by salvia at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2015
Then, if at all possible, I'd tell her, but I'd approach that conversation carefully. If she truly doesn't know, this will hurt a lot, and denial will be her first reaction, and some of her feelings will be projected onto you. (Or, on preview, be like Brandon Blatcher and be passionately on her side and ready to demonize him. That might work too.)
In particular, approach the conversation in a way that leaves her as in control as possible, e.g., the recommendation above to ask "how do you feel about that?" or "what's that about?" You don't want to come across as gawking as though her marriage was a trainwreck. (This all probably goes without saying; I'm stating the obvious here.)
Someone above recommended saying "Bob told Fred he's been doing a lot of partying with a younger woman on his business trips, what's that about?" Good advice, except I'd at least omit the word "younger." You don't want to give any fuel to the "what's wrong with me?" reaction to being cheated on. One of the Brene Brown books people recommend on MetaFilter a lot talks about different kinds of shame people feel, and one is feeling unworthy because they're no longer 21 and a Size 2, so even if you've managed to shrug off societal bullshit of that sort, it's worth knowing that it's a common affliction. Again, stating the obvious, I'm sure.
I'd come in with a bunch of reassuring comments ready in case the conversation goes down that route. (It's not her fault. This could happen to anyone. No matter what challenges they were having he could have handled them in different ways, like therapy. She's a good mom.)
On the other hand, you might be met by a wall of denial or by "I know, but I pretend I don't, since I think he's going to get over it soon." Be prepared to gracefully but authentically react to that, too. Maybe just reiterate that it worries you that he's to the point of telling your husband, and that you're there for her if there's anything you can do.
posted by salvia at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2015
Having now read Eyebrows McGee's comment, I actually like that approach quite a bit. I'd go with that.
posted by salvia at 10:01 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by salvia at 10:01 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Hi. I'm someone who was cheated on in a previous relationship. Similar to your friends' predicament, some of my 'friends' knew of the cheating but all went with the 'it's not my business/not my place to say anything/ignorance is bliss/can't break the manbro-code' route and never told me. I really wished they had. Because knowing someones partner is cheating, and not telling, makes that person complicit with the deception. Eventually, they'll be faced with social situations where not telling forces them to lie to keep the cheaters' charade going. At that point they've demonstrated they care more about the status-quo than they do their friends' emotional/physical well-being. Which is their prerogative, of course -- but, personally, they're not someone I'd really consider a friend at that point.
Unfortunately, whether your friends' husband is actually cheating is hard to say, but there's certainly red flags there. 'No comment' is the kind of answer you give when you really mean 'Yes' but know admitting so will cause you to be judged. I would also think if your friends were in an open relationship, his response to your husband would've indicated such (he was already bragging about party girl -- surely he'd also brag about being in an open relationship that allows him to go hang with party girls). And part of me also thinks your friends' husband told your husband pretty much knowing (hoping?) he'd tell you, and that you'd be likely to tell his wife -- doing so effectively shifts the responsibility for initiating a needed conversation about his feelings/happiness in his marriage to you and/or his wife. This is a tactic my ex tried because he didn't want to be the 'bad guy' -- known for being both the cheater and the one who broke it off. He no longer wanted to be in a relationship and was anticipating our friends would relay his infidelity to me so I'd end it for him. Admittedly, there's not a whole lot to go off of in your post about the kind of person your friends' husband is otherwise, but this is something worth thinking about.
This is a difficult situation and I'm sorry you got forced into it. I think rainbowbrite has a good dialogue to use on broaching this subject though, if that's what you choose. Hell, your friend may already suspect her husband is cheating, but be prepared for anger (even directed at you) either way. With 3 kids to worry about, this information will turn her world upside down. She may also not be prepared to face the reality of the situation and ostracize you and your husband from her life in favor of the continued illusion/fantasy of a happy married life with her husband. Unfortunately, it's out of your hands at that point and all you can do is offer your support and understanding. Good luck.
posted by stubbehtail at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
Unfortunately, whether your friends' husband is actually cheating is hard to say, but there's certainly red flags there. 'No comment' is the kind of answer you give when you really mean 'Yes' but know admitting so will cause you to be judged. I would also think if your friends were in an open relationship, his response to your husband would've indicated such (he was already bragging about party girl -- surely he'd also brag about being in an open relationship that allows him to go hang with party girls). And part of me also thinks your friends' husband told your husband pretty much knowing (hoping?) he'd tell you, and that you'd be likely to tell his wife -- doing so effectively shifts the responsibility for initiating a needed conversation about his feelings/happiness in his marriage to you and/or his wife. This is a tactic my ex tried because he didn't want to be the 'bad guy' -- known for being both the cheater and the one who broke it off. He no longer wanted to be in a relationship and was anticipating our friends would relay his infidelity to me so I'd end it for him. Admittedly, there's not a whole lot to go off of in your post about the kind of person your friends' husband is otherwise, but this is something worth thinking about.
This is a difficult situation and I'm sorry you got forced into it. I think rainbowbrite has a good dialogue to use on broaching this subject though, if that's what you choose. Hell, your friend may already suspect her husband is cheating, but be prepared for anger (even directed at you) either way. With 3 kids to worry about, this information will turn her world upside down. She may also not be prepared to face the reality of the situation and ostracize you and your husband from her life in favor of the continued illusion/fantasy of a happy married life with her husband. Unfortunately, it's out of your hands at that point and all you can do is offer your support and understanding. Good luck.
posted by stubbehtail at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
I'd like to voice some doubt towards everyone who has said that it is *certain* he's cheating (and wants to get caught). That's possible but it's also possible he's just engaging in some braggadocio.
I have known cheaters. They've said to me, "I slept with someone else". I've known guys who want to seem a lot cooler than they are. They're the ones who say things like "no comment," or "I plead the fifth." (Ugh.) I've known guys who have gone home with random girls at the bar, which shocked me, and later told me that they didn't have sex and snuck out instead. I've known guys to give out their phone numbers and go on dates, but go no further than that.
Point is, the amount of cheaters I've known is dwarfed by the amount of people I've known (male & female) who are just trying to prove to themselves they're still desirable. I mean it's still problematic as far as the relationship is concerned but I think there are degrees.
posted by danny the boy at 10:37 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have known cheaters. They've said to me, "I slept with someone else". I've known guys who want to seem a lot cooler than they are. They're the ones who say things like "no comment," or "I plead the fifth." (Ugh.) I've known guys who have gone home with random girls at the bar, which shocked me, and later told me that they didn't have sex and snuck out instead. I've known guys to give out their phone numbers and go on dates, but go no further than that.
Point is, the amount of cheaters I've known is dwarfed by the amount of people I've known (male & female) who are just trying to prove to themselves they're still desirable. I mean it's still problematic as far as the relationship is concerned but I think there are degrees.
posted by danny the boy at 10:37 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Eh, I'm with Jubey and the Gooch that "no comment" more likely means "no, but that wouldn't sound as cool and mysterious."
I'm also with nadawi and several others that it's still gross and disrespectful to the wife, and she ought to know that her husband is saying shit like that and making guests feel awkward at the very least.
posted by ctmf at 10:42 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm also with nadawi and several others that it's still gross and disrespectful to the wife, and she ought to know that her husband is saying shit like that and making guests feel awkward at the very least.
posted by ctmf at 10:42 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would tell her without letting her husband know you're doing so, so that if she wants, she could go see a lawyer before she confronts her husband. If you say to the cheating husband, "either you tell her or I will" you're giving him the chance to clean out their accounts, or otherwise line up a soft landing for himself before giving her the bad news. This is a sad and terrible thing that happened to your friend; telling her allows her to take back some control of her life. It's the humane thing to do.
posted by Kangaroo at 10:42 AM on April 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Kangaroo at 10:42 AM on April 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
Just MHO, but I think your obligation to your husband comes first. If he confided in you, and doesn't want it to go any farther, then you should stay out of it. If you want to talk to him and attempt to change his mind, sure. But until that happens: put a lid on it.
(If the situation were reversed, and you told your husband such a secret, but asked him to keep it to himself, but he ignored you and told someone, you'd likely be unhappy about, I'd assume?)
posted by doctor tough love at 10:43 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
(If the situation were reversed, and you told your husband such a secret, but asked him to keep it to himself, but he ignored you and told someone, you'd likely be unhappy about, I'd assume?)
posted by doctor tough love at 10:43 AM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd probably go with acting as if she knew and it was harmless, but that the telling made you uncomfortable. Like, hey, could you maybe mention to your husband that telling house guests about how much extra-marital partying he's doing on trips is awkward for the guest?
posted by ctmf at 10:47 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 10:47 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
And here's the worst part: her husband wants you to tell her. That's the only possible reason that he brought the conversation to that point
No, much as it sickens me to admit it, there are totally guys who bond over their mutual cheating on their wives and who would never think of telling their wives about what their fratbro asshole friends are doing. I think this guy wasn't trying to necessarily let the wife know, but I think you should tell her anyway.
posted by corb at 11:20 AM on April 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
No, much as it sickens me to admit it, there are totally guys who bond over their mutual cheating on their wives and who would never think of telling their wives about what their fratbro asshole friends are doing. I think this guy wasn't trying to necessarily let the wife know, but I think you should tell her anyway.
posted by corb at 11:20 AM on April 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
No, much as it sickens me to admit it, there are totally guys who bond over their mutual cheating on their wives and who would never think of telling their wives about what their fratbro asshole friends are doing.
I know a few of those guys, and they love to talk frequently and loudly about their escapades. My interpretation is that there is an exhibitionist aspect, along with the insecure bragging, since they talk so openly about it (far, far more openly than anyone I know who is single and dating).
Whether or not you choose to tell your friend about this, I think you need to get on the same page with your husband regarding this topic, because chances are that this is neither the first nor the last time he will be told something like this by some cheesy guy. Do you even want to hear about it the next time? Or do you want him to shut those conversations down before they happen? (In my experience, the guys who boast about this are careful to only have those conversations with people they think will at least give it a pass, if not actively approve.)
posted by Dip Flash at 12:22 PM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know a few of those guys, and they love to talk frequently and loudly about their escapades. My interpretation is that there is an exhibitionist aspect, along with the insecure bragging, since they talk so openly about it (far, far more openly than anyone I know who is single and dating).
Whether or not you choose to tell your friend about this, I think you need to get on the same page with your husband regarding this topic, because chances are that this is neither the first nor the last time he will be told something like this by some cheesy guy. Do you even want to hear about it the next time? Or do you want him to shut those conversations down before they happen? (In my experience, the guys who boast about this are careful to only have those conversations with people they think will at least give it a pass, if not actively approve.)
posted by Dip Flash at 12:22 PM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think your obligation to your husband comes first. If he confided in you, and doesn't want it to go any farther, then you should stay out of it.
Well ...if your husband was here asking us whether he should tell you, I think he'd still get a mix of answers but more weighted towards "keep it to yourself." This guy put your husband in an awkward situation and your husband has sort of passed it on to you. If he didn't want you to do anything with the information, why did he tell you at all?
Maybe you can compromise by finding some other plausible way to tip off your friend without implicating your husband or that particular conversation as your source.
posted by neat graffitist at 12:30 PM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well ...if your husband was here asking us whether he should tell you, I think he'd still get a mix of answers but more weighted towards "keep it to yourself." This guy put your husband in an awkward situation and your husband has sort of passed it on to you. If he didn't want you to do anything with the information, why did he tell you at all?
Maybe you can compromise by finding some other plausible way to tip off your friend without implicating your husband or that particular conversation as your source.
posted by neat graffitist at 12:30 PM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know a few of those guys, and they love to talk frequently and loudly about their escapades. My interpretation is that there is an exhibitionist aspect, along with the insecure bragging, since they talk so openly about it (far, far more openly than anyone I know who is single and dating).
I agree with this. Mr Vitabellosi insists that guys don't actually talk to other guys about their sexual escapades (the guys he hangs out with) and especially not about the great sex they're having with their wives, because they don't want other guys to suddenly take an interest in the same women (especially one's own wife!) (Point of clarification: they might talk to other guys about thinking about having an affair, because they're being an angsty and feel guilty about it and need someone to talk to.)
The good news is that your husband shared this with you, and that he was appalled. The bad news is that this dickwad thought your husband would be in agreement with how exciting it all is. It sounds like your husband doesn't like this guy very much anymore. (Because, dickweed!)
I think that instead of asking if he'd cheated (though not a bad question), he should've asked if he'd paid, because "young party girl" sounds like a prostitute, or at least someone looking for a sugar daddy.
Hubby should circle back to the dick weed and ask him if he's using a condom, and maybe say something like "you know, wife and I like your family a lot. We like your kids and you know my wife and your wife go waaay back. Why would you tell me about your business trip party girl?! You'd better fucking be wearing a condom, because if you've given your wife an STD, you can be sure I'll line up to testify on her behalf in divorce court. (It doesn't matter that that's not actually a thing) what the fuck, man. Get your shit together. Jesus. What are you? 15?" This should come with a tone that says "you're pathetic"
And then see what the guy's response is. Maybe he admits that he hasn't cheated. Maybe he says "I use a condom." and then you know for sure. Maybe he turns the tables and accuses your husband of being pussy-whipped and then you know for a fact the guy's an asshole and your husband storms out and you guys leave quickly and when your friend asks what happened you day "I'll find out" and then you get back to your friend and tell her the truth, as if your husband just shared both installments with you. Or maybe you say "I have no idea." And then your husband sits down with the wife the next day and tells it to her straight, and tells her that he wanted to tell her directly because he didn't want to be implicated in stupid bro dicknanigans and she deserves better. I think it would actually be good for her to know that there are men who don't collude with bros in such things. (This ALSO protects you from the dick weed, who will accuse you of being behind the whole thing.)
posted by vitabellosi at 3:16 PM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with this. Mr Vitabellosi insists that guys don't actually talk to other guys about their sexual escapades (the guys he hangs out with) and especially not about the great sex they're having with their wives, because they don't want other guys to suddenly take an interest in the same women (especially one's own wife!) (Point of clarification: they might talk to other guys about thinking about having an affair, because they're being an angsty and feel guilty about it and need someone to talk to.)
The good news is that your husband shared this with you, and that he was appalled. The bad news is that this dickwad thought your husband would be in agreement with how exciting it all is. It sounds like your husband doesn't like this guy very much anymore. (Because, dickweed!)
I think that instead of asking if he'd cheated (though not a bad question), he should've asked if he'd paid, because "young party girl" sounds like a prostitute, or at least someone looking for a sugar daddy.
Hubby should circle back to the dick weed and ask him if he's using a condom, and maybe say something like "you know, wife and I like your family a lot. We like your kids and you know my wife and your wife go waaay back. Why would you tell me about your business trip party girl?! You'd better fucking be wearing a condom, because if you've given your wife an STD, you can be sure I'll line up to testify on her behalf in divorce court. (It doesn't matter that that's not actually a thing) what the fuck, man. Get your shit together. Jesus. What are you? 15?" This should come with a tone that says "you're pathetic"
And then see what the guy's response is. Maybe he admits that he hasn't cheated. Maybe he says "I use a condom." and then you know for sure. Maybe he turns the tables and accuses your husband of being pussy-whipped and then you know for a fact the guy's an asshole and your husband storms out and you guys leave quickly and when your friend asks what happened you day "I'll find out" and then you get back to your friend and tell her the truth, as if your husband just shared both installments with you. Or maybe you say "I have no idea." And then your husband sits down with the wife the next day and tells it to her straight, and tells her that he wanted to tell her directly because he didn't want to be implicated in stupid bro dicknanigans and she deserves better. I think it would actually be good for her to know that there are men who don't collude with bros in such things. (This ALSO protects you from the dick weed, who will accuse you of being behind the whole thing.)
posted by vitabellosi at 3:16 PM on April 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had a boyfriend who tried to cheat on me... The girl had met me at a party once and said no! He tried to cheat and failed. That time, anyway. My friend was dating his roommate, and they told me. I dumped him immediately; we are still friends. Tell her what you know.
posted by jrobin276 at 3:33 PM on April 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jrobin276 at 3:33 PM on April 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
and as for your own marriage, i'd also be curious why this guy thought your husband would be receptive to this sort of bragging
Replying directly to this for the OPs benefit, but assholey men assume all men are assholes like them, and are just quiet about it/don't admit to their assholishness in polite company to keep up appearances. I really really doubt your husband did anything to display his receptiveness to this kind of crap. As a generally non-douchey guy it's still pretty common if they're around, for douchey guys to start "broing down" with me and say really stupid shit thinking i'll nod along and fist bump and go "sick, totally bro!"
He's operating from the baseline assumption that what he's saying sounds cool, because if someone else said it like that to him he'd think so. Your husband is basically a prop in his masturbation and self aggrandizement, and any guy he could have a private moment over a beer with.
So yea, your husband was a prop. He likely did nothing but nod and listen to him talk, which is the best way to get people to say embarrassing shit anyways.
posted by emptythought at 4:21 PM on April 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
Replying directly to this for the OPs benefit, but assholey men assume all men are assholes like them, and are just quiet about it/don't admit to their assholishness in polite company to keep up appearances. I really really doubt your husband did anything to display his receptiveness to this kind of crap. As a generally non-douchey guy it's still pretty common if they're around, for douchey guys to start "broing down" with me and say really stupid shit thinking i'll nod along and fist bump and go "sick, totally bro!"
He's operating from the baseline assumption that what he's saying sounds cool, because if someone else said it like that to him he'd think so. Your husband is basically a prop in his masturbation and self aggrandizement, and any guy he could have a private moment over a beer with.
So yea, your husband was a prop. He likely did nothing but nod and listen to him talk, which is the best way to get people to say embarrassing shit anyways.
posted by emptythought at 4:21 PM on April 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
This guy has put both you and your husband in a difficult situation of conflicting loyalties and obligations to your husband and to your friend. The last thing you want to do is erode your husband's trust in you, which is a likely outcome of telling your friend against his wishes. On the other hand, this is potentially life-changing information you're holding and there's a lot of pressure on both you and your husband to 'do the right thing', without any way of knowing what that might be in the longer term.
I'm inclined to think the least damaging course would be if you could convince your husband to tell your friend what he was told. That way, it doesn't turn into 'she said he said you said'. Otherwise, it depends on what your priorities are - telling your friend against your husband's wishes could send a message that you won't respect his confidences, but not telling her lets your friend know that you may not have her back. If your sense of right and wrong combined with the value you place on your friendship is strong enough, tell your husband that there's no way you can sit on this (and explain why) and that, if he doesn't tell her (not him, her - expecting the husband to tell the truth here would be naive in the extreme), you will.
If nothing else, your friend will need you when the shit hits the fan, as it inevitably will one way or another, but having withheld information potentially vital to her health won't endear her to you, plus, by sitting on the information, you will be perceived as implicitly endorsing his behaviour.
I'm actually in the camp with those who think it's likely the arsehole was talking up what actually happened, for the same reasons they've outlined. But it doesn't matter - the most likely scenario was that he would have screwed as many of the 'party girls' as he could if they'd let him. That's pretty much irrelevant to me, though - he's still cheated. The only difference would be real vs potential health risks.
posted by dg at 6:14 PM on April 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm inclined to think the least damaging course would be if you could convince your husband to tell your friend what he was told. That way, it doesn't turn into 'she said he said you said'. Otherwise, it depends on what your priorities are - telling your friend against your husband's wishes could send a message that you won't respect his confidences, but not telling her lets your friend know that you may not have her back. If your sense of right and wrong combined with the value you place on your friendship is strong enough, tell your husband that there's no way you can sit on this (and explain why) and that, if he doesn't tell her (not him, her - expecting the husband to tell the truth here would be naive in the extreme), you will.
If nothing else, your friend will need you when the shit hits the fan, as it inevitably will one way or another, but having withheld information potentially vital to her health won't endear her to you, plus, by sitting on the information, you will be perceived as implicitly endorsing his behaviour.
I'm actually in the camp with those who think it's likely the arsehole was talking up what actually happened, for the same reasons they've outlined. But it doesn't matter - the most likely scenario was that he would have screwed as many of the 'party girls' as he could if they'd let him. That's pretty much irrelevant to me, though - he's still cheated. The only difference would be real vs potential health risks.
posted by dg at 6:14 PM on April 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I second dg's comment. Thoughtful and reasonable. The ethics of this situation are not cut and dried.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:16 PM on April 11, 2015
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:16 PM on April 11, 2015
[this is a re-formulation of a comment I posted earlier but was deleted]
Many people here are offering advice based on their personal preferences. But the problem with the Golden Rule is that we don't all want to be treated the same ways.
I'd stay out of it, myself, but I'm a firm believer that 90% of a relationship is unknowable to outsiders.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:23 PM on April 11, 2015
Many people here are offering advice based on their personal preferences. But the problem with the Golden Rule is that we don't all want to be treated the same ways.
I'd stay out of it, myself, but I'm a firm believer that 90% of a relationship is unknowable to outsiders.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:23 PM on April 11, 2015
My ex-husband was cheating on me and many people, including "friends," knew but didn't tell me because they didn't want to hurt me. I had a feeling something was off but never considered he was having an affair. By the time I found out he had drained the bank account, stopped his direct deposit of his pay, and then abandoned me with 3 kids. I was totally blind sided and utterly humiliated that I was the last to know. I would tell your friend in as tactful way as possible. Let her know you will be there for her no matter what happens. Even if he has not cheated yet, he is going down that road and temptation only lasts so long before a person gives in to it. Let her have time to prepare herself.
posted by photogirlguru at 10:36 PM on April 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by photogirlguru at 10:36 PM on April 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
I literally got interrupted right in the middle of posting earlier, and hit submit just incase my comment somehow got wiped since my laptop likes to crash the browser after it's been asleep sometimes. But...
plus, by sitting on the information, you will be perceived as implicitly endorsing his behaviour.
This is a good point, also good are what FFFM brought up above about endorsing the bro code. And additionally, that as has been said in many threads on the green before, the "eww don't tell you're just stirring shit" sort of argument for not bringing it up really kind of stinks of misogyny and "oh women make catty drama". And i've noticed, it's nearly always women who are asking mefi whether or not they should bring this type of thing up.
I think you should do it because those reasons not to are shit. Much less that there's plenty of good reasons in favor of it ignoring that stuff anyways. I think it's an excellent point that if someone i knew was aware of something like this, or even the possibility of it and didn't tell me i'd be angry at them if i found out about it later, found out they knew, and didn't say anything. I'd definitely view them as complicit, and i think that's a pretty reasonable conclusion.
I've been grateful in the past when a friend, or even an acquaintance brought up something like "hey, i heard so and so saying/bragging about this. dunno what to think of it, but figured you should know" whether it turned out to be anything or not. Even if it was something that was nothing, i appreciated them being diligent and telling me.
The only time it's bad is if you have crappy impure motivations for doing so, like revenge, or someone involved being your ex. And even then a good case can be made sometimes. And on those stop-and-check fronts you're totally in the clear here. Dude was being gross and bragging. Even if it was just male bravado bullshit, i think your friend deserves to know he was going around acting like a lameoid.
I also think you need to have a talk with your husband about his reasoning for not bringing this up, and all the good reasons that many arguments against bringing it up are crap i and others mentioned. Does he buy in to that bro-code dont stir drama ew nonsense? I made my point above about how he very likely and plausibly did nothing to provoke that brodude bullshit on your friends partners side, but i really doubt he has a very good reason for clamming up here and not getting involved.
I also think DG makes some good points about how he should be the one to tell your friend, and that it would avoid some potentially tiresome triangulation/grapevining "well he heard her say it and then i heard it from him and now i'm telling you" stuff. If he witnessed it, i agree that the best way is probably for him to tell her.
Which he should.
posted by emptythought at 12:28 AM on April 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
plus, by sitting on the information, you will be perceived as implicitly endorsing his behaviour.
This is a good point, also good are what FFFM brought up above about endorsing the bro code. And additionally, that as has been said in many threads on the green before, the "eww don't tell you're just stirring shit" sort of argument for not bringing it up really kind of stinks of misogyny and "oh women make catty drama". And i've noticed, it's nearly always women who are asking mefi whether or not they should bring this type of thing up.
I think you should do it because those reasons not to are shit. Much less that there's plenty of good reasons in favor of it ignoring that stuff anyways. I think it's an excellent point that if someone i knew was aware of something like this, or even the possibility of it and didn't tell me i'd be angry at them if i found out about it later, found out they knew, and didn't say anything. I'd definitely view them as complicit, and i think that's a pretty reasonable conclusion.
I've been grateful in the past when a friend, or even an acquaintance brought up something like "hey, i heard so and so saying/bragging about this. dunno what to think of it, but figured you should know" whether it turned out to be anything or not. Even if it was something that was nothing, i appreciated them being diligent and telling me.
The only time it's bad is if you have crappy impure motivations for doing so, like revenge, or someone involved being your ex. And even then a good case can be made sometimes. And on those stop-and-check fronts you're totally in the clear here. Dude was being gross and bragging. Even if it was just male bravado bullshit, i think your friend deserves to know he was going around acting like a lameoid.
I also think you need to have a talk with your husband about his reasoning for not bringing this up, and all the good reasons that many arguments against bringing it up are crap i and others mentioned. Does he buy in to that bro-code dont stir drama ew nonsense? I made my point above about how he very likely and plausibly did nothing to provoke that brodude bullshit on your friends partners side, but i really doubt he has a very good reason for clamming up here and not getting involved.
I also think DG makes some good points about how he should be the one to tell your friend, and that it would avoid some potentially tiresome triangulation/grapevining "well he heard her say it and then i heard it from him and now i'm telling you" stuff. If he witnessed it, i agree that the best way is probably for him to tell her.
Which he should.
posted by emptythought at 12:28 AM on April 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
I've heard a lot of stories from women who wish their friends had told them that they knew their husband was cheating. I have never, ever heard anyone say they were glad a friend who knew their husband was cheating kept it from them.
posted by hazyjane at 12:30 AM on April 12, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by hazyjane at 12:30 AM on April 12, 2015 [22 favorites]
What a horrible position to be in. I can completely understand how your husband might just want it all to go away, but the fact is, there is going to be some drama in this situation no matter what. It is just a question of how much, and when.
My recommendation would be to tell your husband that you really believe your friend needs to know what her husband is saying, and that you want to tell her about it using the great face-saving script Eyebrows McGee and Yellow Silver Maple lay out above. It would probably be best if your husband would do it himself, or at least be there when you do it, in order to minimize the "telephone" aspect in case she has any questions about her husband's tone, wording, etc..
I would try to keep the focus on the "hey, this made us uncomfortable and we don't know what to think" aspects rather than speculating on what might be going on. Yes, this guy--and maybe even your husband--might be upset at the consequences of his little "bro moment," but he needs to know that this is serious stuff. Your friend is placing her trust in this jerk and she might be risking her health, the stability of her home and that of her children, and her financial future by doing so.
posted by rpfields at 2:16 AM on April 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
My recommendation would be to tell your husband that you really believe your friend needs to know what her husband is saying, and that you want to tell her about it using the great face-saving script Eyebrows McGee and Yellow Silver Maple lay out above. It would probably be best if your husband would do it himself, or at least be there when you do it, in order to minimize the "telephone" aspect in case she has any questions about her husband's tone, wording, etc..
I would try to keep the focus on the "hey, this made us uncomfortable and we don't know what to think" aspects rather than speculating on what might be going on. Yes, this guy--and maybe even your husband--might be upset at the consequences of his little "bro moment," but he needs to know that this is serious stuff. Your friend is placing her trust in this jerk and she might be risking her health, the stability of her home and that of her children, and her financial future by doing so.
posted by rpfields at 2:16 AM on April 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Buy a couple of books on preparing for a divorce and take her out to a quiet cafe or park and give them to her. One of the best I've read is "Think financially, not emotionally"
posted by Sophont at 2:51 AM on April 12, 2015
posted by Sophont at 2:51 AM on April 12, 2015
One way to bring this up might be to ask her, "Are you ever concerned about A's fidelity?" You could open it up as a discussion about his frequent business travel. And see where it goes from there. You may see that she has had suspicions and will welcome confirmation, or that it has never crossed her mind, or something in between.
Sadly, it is true that with kids, her priority should be with making sure she doesn't get blindsided. But also sadly, even if you know and try to plan, a spouse who is determined to "do the dirty" on you will find a way. And this guy sounds like he may be the type who really likes his secure life and likes this little escape hatch on the side. I mean wtf is a "party girl" anyway? I'd be tempted to dump any guy who talked about a woman that way. But he's not saying he met his soulmate or something. Some guys just like to cheat and will do so for decades.
posted by BibiRose at 6:55 AM on April 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sadly, it is true that with kids, her priority should be with making sure she doesn't get blindsided. But also sadly, even if you know and try to plan, a spouse who is determined to "do the dirty" on you will find a way. And this guy sounds like he may be the type who really likes his secure life and likes this little escape hatch on the side. I mean wtf is a "party girl" anyway? I'd be tempted to dump any guy who talked about a woman that way. But he's not saying he met his soulmate or something. Some guys just like to cheat and will do so for decades.
posted by BibiRose at 6:55 AM on April 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sorry; I should have said some people like to cheat. And I also agree that this guy may just be lying and exaggerating his exploits anyway. He sounds like a horse's ass and I doubt whether your friend is totally blind to his behavior.
posted by BibiRose at 6:58 AM on April 12, 2015
posted by BibiRose at 6:58 AM on April 12, 2015
I think Etrigan has it exactly right. At the very least, this dude wants your husband to think he's having an affair, whether he actually is or not. I don't think it's likely, but it's barely possible he isn't. To my shame, I have in the distant past implied to friends that I was sleeping with people when I wasn't, but I was very young and stupid at the time. If it's just bragging, he should have grown out of it by now.
And regardless, this dude has gotten you involved whether you want to be or not, which is gross. His wife deserves for you to tell her what happened, and I'd do it using exactly the same words he said, including the "no comment." Regardless of what happens, be there for her afterwards. She is not to blame for this situation; he definitely is.
posted by Gelatin at 5:52 AM on April 13, 2015
And regardless, this dude has gotten you involved whether you want to be or not, which is gross. His wife deserves for you to tell her what happened, and I'd do it using exactly the same words he said, including the "no comment." Regardless of what happens, be there for her afterwards. She is not to blame for this situation; he definitely is.
posted by Gelatin at 5:52 AM on April 13, 2015
Fuck the bro code of silence.
posted by benzenedream at 4:16 PM on April 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 4:16 PM on April 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you're not satisfied with what he says, tell him that either he needs to talk to his wife or you will.
Your husband wants to leave it, but if your friend finds out and then also finds out that you knew, I don't think "my husband didn't want me to say anything" will make her feel any better.
posted by twirlypen at 4:32 AM on April 11, 2015 [4 favorites]